Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / After Dark Bandits: Doug's Last Word | Doug Morgan

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After Dark Bandits: Doug's Last Word | Doug Morgan · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shand. Of all the interviews I've done
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: on this podcast, my after Dark Bandit series is among
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  Speaker 1: my favorite and most satisfying. Authorities are stumped as the
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: same man appears to be in two places at once,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: outsmarting police for years, becoming Australia's most wanted men. Twenty
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  Speaker 1: four robberies later, all was revealed police had been out
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  Speaker 1: foxed by identical twins Peter and Doug Morgan. The pair
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: of identical twins who rob banks and bedding shops in
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  Speaker 1: Country Victoria and a hectic two years spring in the
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  Speaker 1: late nineteen seventies is one of the most unusual of
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  Speaker 1: Australian crime stories. Dark and Peter Morgan have spoken extensively
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  Speaker 1: about the motivations for what they did while coming to
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  Speaker 1: terms with the trauma they brought to the people they rob.
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  Speaker 1: A bank teller in Bonella has described the moment an
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  Speaker 1: armed man vaulted the counter during Tuesday Afternoon's robbery. We
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  Speaker 1: did exactly as he said. We were terrified. My aim
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  Speaker 1: was also to get beyond the differences that have divided
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  Speaker 1: them for much of the past forty nine years. We
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  Speaker 1: drilled into the complex relationship with their father, who was
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  Speaker 1: both the boy's hero and as a part time bandit
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  Speaker 1: influenced his children's choices. Doug went first, then it took
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  Speaker 1: a long time to get Peter into the chair before
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  Speaker 1: he participated in a blockbuster double episode. It was only
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  Speaker 1: fair that I gave Doug equal time, so I got
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  Speaker 1: him back for a final chat to talk about life
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  Speaker 1: beyond being an after dark bandit. Three decades after terrorizing
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  Speaker 1: Victoria's country banks, Doug Morgan is now spending his days
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  Speaker 1: in a very different kind of servers. We met at
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  Speaker 1: brew Dog Bar at Penridge Prison, where Doug comes to
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  Speaker 1: paint most days. He wanted to talk about his youth
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: work and how to manage his unique relationship with his brother,
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  Speaker 1: But I think they'll be stuck with each other for
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  Speaker 1: a few more years. I hope you enjoy the final
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  Speaker 1: part of a series I won't forget enjoy. Doug Morgan,
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  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Real Crime with Adam shand what a
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: saga this has been. You were one of the early
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  Speaker 1: interviews for the podcast, and I thought i'd just get
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: your brother in within a few weeks and we'd sort
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  Speaker 1: of get both sides of the story and move on.
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  Speaker 1: But here we are another nine months. We've just had
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  Speaker 1: two episodes from Peter. The three episodes have been some
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  Speaker 1: of the most downloaded of all. There's a lot of
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  Speaker 1: interest in your story, and I think what I've come
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  Speaker 1: to the view of is that there's a lot more
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: that brings you together than pushes you apart. So, like
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  Speaker 1: I said in the first interview, we're not here to
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: have another series of potshots at each other, but more
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: to talk about. This is something I discussed with my
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  Speaker 1: son yesterdaytually, Doug, is that we need to see your
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: experience through the prism of your life as opposed to
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: this long running enmity conflict that's been there.
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  Speaker 2: You know, well, I'm totally for it because first thing,
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  Speaker 2: I'll say, nearly every family that I know and come
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  Speaker 2: contact with, friends or whatever people I meet every day,
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  Speaker 2: they always tell me about conflicts in their families, gaps
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: in their families, and I think that's pretty normal.
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  Speaker 3: So I don't really hold it as much.
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  Speaker 2: What I do doesn't affect Peter, and what he does
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  Speaker 2: shouldn't affect me till somebody starts criticizing me.
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  Speaker 3: But I'm not even going to go there at the moment.
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  Speaker 2: What I'd first likely to talk about is my father,
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  Speaker 2: because my father gets a lot.
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  Speaker 3: Of blame for our upbringing.
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  Speaker 2: And what I'd like to back to an issue that
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  Speaker 2: nobody else in the world knows about, not even my brother.
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  Speaker 1: Just a bit of background first before we go in there. Well,
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  Speaker 1: for people who haven't listened to the earlier podcast, your
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  Speaker 1: dad died at forty one. Yes, he was a builder carpenters, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: very good one. But he also when things were tough,
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  Speaker 1: he would get involved bit of lastity.
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  Speaker 3: All right, you've led me in really well.
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  Speaker 2: So in other words, he had an accident on a
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  Speaker 2: building site and I was working with him. Because he
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  Speaker 2: had an accident, he couldn't work. My brother and I
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  Speaker 2: go and get jobs with the A and Z Bank.
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  Speaker 2: Within a month, they promote me to being number three
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  Speaker 2: e teller in a city bank. I obviously had helen
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  Speaker 2: as a bank teller, but that's not the story I
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  Speaker 2: want to tell because a little short period after that
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  Speaker 2: I had to give that job away because my father
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  Speaker 2: had to go on the run again, so I had
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  Speaker 2: to leave Melbourne. He was injured, so he didn't have
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  Speaker 2: an income. So he went and got a job. He
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  Speaker 2: had drilled his leg badly with a big drill, and
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  Speaker 2: he went and got a job with a real estate agent.
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  Speaker 2: And he had taken some of the house deposits and
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  Speaker 2: put in his own account. Now he had fifteen hundred
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  Speaker 2: dollars issue that he had taken that wasn't his money.
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  Speaker 2: So he had a certain period of times all the
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  Speaker 2: checks somebody would find out that why didn't my deposit
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  Speaker 2: to hold his house show up anywhere? And why isn't
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  Speaker 2: the house is now becoming mine? So he got this
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  Speaker 2: job that he could do with a bad leg. Right,
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  Speaker 2: So if I had to kept working with my father,
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  Speaker 2: I could have supplied enough income with my brother to
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  Speaker 2: run the family. And my dad had been wonderful to
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  Speaker 2: us and trained us very well. What happened was the
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: night that he told me that we've got to go
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  Speaker 2: on the run. I said, well, listen, if you've got
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  Speaker 2: to go on the run for fifteen hundred dollars in
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  Speaker 2: my unit at work, I've got eleven thousand dollars. Now,
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  Speaker 2: if you come tomorrow and rob me, we'll all go
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  Speaker 2: onto the run together with twelve and a half thousand dollars. Well,
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  Speaker 2: I just realized the important thing is I offered to
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  Speaker 2: become one of the youngest bank robbers in Australia's history
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  Speaker 2: about helping out dad, as you would you know, yeah, exactly,
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  Speaker 2: and I would do that. I offered it to him.
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  Speaker 2: And this is his words. No matter what anybody ever
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  Speaker 2: says about my father, his words were, you will not
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  Speaker 2: do that. If anybody has to break the law for
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: this family, it'll be me. So never ever say to
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  Speaker 2: me and blame my father. Because it wasn't until six
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  Speaker 2: or seven years later that Peter came up with the
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  Speaker 2: idea of being a bank robber. My father would be
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  Speaker 2: totally disgusted with what we went on to do, really
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  Speaker 2: because he knew the cost. But I wasn't aware of
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  Speaker 2: the cost, but he did. Now I'm aware of the
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  Speaker 2: cost of what we did.
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  Speaker 1: Let's just focus on that for a moment. He gave
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  Speaker 1: you this strong moral guidance, if you like it, didn't
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  Speaker 1: always follow it himself, but he gave you this strong
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  Speaker 1: moral guidance. So why did it then happen? Do you
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  Speaker 1: think now? When I spoke to Peter, And this is
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  Speaker 1: an interesting part of your so called rivalry, is that
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  Speaker 1: He's generally said I was the leader, Doug was the follower.
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  Speaker 1: But in our interview he said, if I was the leader,
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  Speaker 1: I did the wrong thing paraphrasing I did the wrong thing,
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  Speaker 1: and Doug, who was the reluctant bank robber, was actually
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  Speaker 1: the one doing the right thing. How does that sit
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  Speaker 1: with you now?
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  Speaker 2: Because I was my father's assistant as well, and I
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  Speaker 2: would die.
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  Speaker 1: For the family if I'm part of the family.
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  Speaker 2: As a twelve year old, I was wheeling safe out
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  Speaker 2: of post office with my father because I'm assisting my father.
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  Speaker 2: When Peter said we'll become bankrobbers, I said, I can
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  Speaker 2: be the assistant, but I don't want to carry the gun.
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  Speaker 3: I don't want to steal the car.
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  Speaker 2: I'll meet you when you steal the first car with
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  Speaker 2: some gasoline at the Arthur's Creek Cemetery and I'd top
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  Speaker 2: your car up that you're stolen so you don't have
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  Speaker 2: to go to a service station.
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  Speaker 1: So I was the assistant. Never offered any more than that.
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  Speaker 2: And I will tell you straight, if I was ever
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  Speaker 2: going to be a crook, it would be a tank
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  Speaker 2: man and I would go into factories or whatever and
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  Speaker 2: blow them. As a child, I thought that was very romantic,
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  Speaker 2: and that's what real crooks did.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I just want to say that about my dad,
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  Speaker 1: just to get that, well, this is I think this
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  Speaker 1: is something I want to dwell on a bit, to
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  Speaker 1: be perfectly honest with your dad, because I know he
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  Speaker 1: was a hero to both of you, and his loss
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  Speaker 1: left a big gap in your lives. And into that
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  Speaker 1: gap two mischievous young men.
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  Speaker 2: That leads to why did I follow my brother? Okay,
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  Speaker 2: I'll tell you why. I lose my father. So the
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  Speaker 2: leader's gone within six months. My mother remarried somebody that
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  Speaker 2: my father and he grew up with from Greensborough. They
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  Speaker 2: all grew up in Greensboro in the nineteen forties, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: a bit just before the war and then through the war.
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  Speaker 3: So I lose my father.
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  Speaker 2: As far as I'm concerned, my mother's deserted me and
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  Speaker 2: remarried that guy's already got six children. I bought a caravan,
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  Speaker 2: lived in the backyard for a while, and went, I'm
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  Speaker 2: second class citizen. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm out.
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to be part of this family. I
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  Speaker 2: want my family. So I only had my brother left,
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  Speaker 2: so no matter what he did or tried with me,
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  Speaker 2: I wasn't going to desert the last member that I had,
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  Speaker 2: so that it's not really the bond twins. The fact
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  Speaker 2: he's the last one of the family.
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  Speaker 1: Ye fair enough, And that trio was so close your dad,
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  Speaker 1: Peter and yourself, and that's just off all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 1: as you say, Mum's gone off and married somebody else.
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  Speaker 1: And right now, I'll tell you're feeling a bit left out.
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  Speaker 3: Well, I've lost everything as far as what I've grown
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  Speaker 3: up with.
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  Speaker 2: I've been moving around since the age of five, on
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  Speaker 2: the run every now and then because my dad go
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  Speaker 2: to New Zealand all they over the place. No great
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  Speaker 2: friendships because I keep moving schools and houses. So I've
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  Speaker 2: only really got the group, and that's my group. I'm
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  Speaker 2: a very loyal person, obviously. Loyalty sometimes can kill you, well,
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  Speaker 2: blind loyalty can.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So that explains why I would follow him even if
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  Speaker 2: I didn't want to be involved, because I'm not going
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  Speaker 2: to walk away from a member of my family. Now,
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  Speaker 2: what I really want to talk about today, I'll get
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  Speaker 2: to all the things that are relevant compared to what
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  Speaker 2: Peter has said.
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  Speaker 3: But we have to look at what I do now
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  Speaker 3: and what I do.
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  Speaker 2: Like last Wednesday, I was doing a podcast at Coburg
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  Speaker 2: High School with the students. They invited me down to
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  Speaker 2: talk to them, and it was brilliant because I got
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  Speaker 2: to talk to young people about what it cost me
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  Speaker 2: that they shouldn't waste their lives. Does your life feel
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  Speaker 2: like a wasted Absolutely not, because I've got this brilliant opportunity.
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  Speaker 2: I tell people that I'm so blessed to have this
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  Speaker 2: opportunity through my experiences to maybe tap people on the
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  Speaker 2: shoulder and say, think very seriously about what you to do.
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  Speaker 1: So do interrupt again, just to put some context around this.
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  Speaker 1: What we're talking about occurred nearly fifty years ago. Yep,
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  Speaker 1: you did you? How long was your down time? Again?
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  Speaker 1: You about eleven eleven? So most of what happened is
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  Speaker 1: so long ago, yet it seems still so present. And
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  Speaker 1: this is something we talked about in the first podcast,
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  Speaker 1: and also I noted talking to Peter this need to
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  Speaker 1: atone there's still a lot of rawness about that.
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  Speaker 3: We've got different ruiness. I can tell you now.
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  Speaker 2: The thing is what I want to talk about is
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  Speaker 2: because it's to do with helping other people. I often
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  Speaker 2: wonder when my father died, if one of my uncles
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  Speaker 2: or his brothers or one of my mum's brothers had
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  Speaker 2: to tap me on the shoulder and say, do you
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  Speaker 2: know what your dad used to do? Don't you do that?
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  Speaker 2: Don't you ruin your life? Now, this is a big
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  Speaker 2: key in my life because I realize somebody could have
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  Speaker 2: grabbed me and saved me. I'll tell you how I
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  Speaker 2: feel about all this about saving young people. If I
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: walk down a set of steps and the last tread
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  Speaker 2: is loose and I stumble because the tread moved, I
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  Speaker 2: will turn around, and people following me, I'll say, be
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  Speaker 2: careful of that last step. That is a normal thing
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  Speaker 2: to do. So for me not to try and stop
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  Speaker 2: other people ruining their lives and wasting their lives and
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  Speaker 2: not lifting up their potential, that would be a failure
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  Speaker 2: on my behalf, not a plus, a failure if I
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  Speaker 2: don't do it. Of course, it is a plus if
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I do it, but it's more of a failure if
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I don't do it. Now, what I want to talk
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: about is because I had to study myself in jail.
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  Speaker 2: You have to understand who you are before you can change.
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  Speaker 2: I understood that I grew up in an environment that
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: gave me the ability to do whatever I wanted, because
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  Speaker 2: I was taught basically, we come first. When I started
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  Speaker 2: robbing banks with my brother or whatever, I look at
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  Speaker 2: that man a bit like shuw Shang's redemption. I looked
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  Speaker 2: buck at fifty years. I don't know that young man.
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  Speaker 2: That young man had no respect for anybody, not his wife,
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  Speaker 2: not his children, not society, and perhaps not even himself.
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  Speaker 2: So he could do basically anything. He said, yep to
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  Speaker 2: now what I found. I'm a bank teller before i'm
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: a bank robber. I think all bank tellers will be
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: able to handle the situation. I used to count customers
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  Speaker 2: in and out, and I would not go in. Only
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: in all my jobs, which was only Southern, I was
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: my own a player. Only one customer was ever in
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: a bank or a cab. When I entered, that man
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: was putting a bed on. I was not hostile. I
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: lined up behind him. When the attendant looked over his
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: shoulder and saw me, I said, don't worry, take his bet.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not in a hurry. I'll let the guy put
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  Speaker 2: the bed on. So how I can't be any more
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  Speaker 2: casual than that. When I came to jail, the first
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: thing I realized was the intimidation, the intimidation from prisoner
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: to prisoner, from screws to prisoners, and I started to
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: hate the people that would intimidate, let's say, nonviolent criminals.
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  Speaker 2: Around my neck is a little cross that's cut out
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: of a window bar, and I wear that for eight
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  Speaker 2: young lads that I know that hung themselves in penstries
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: jail because they were being intimidated by the heavies either
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: they were going to be bashed or raped, and the
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: prospect of that, the stress of their mind running loose
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: with what's going to happen tomorrow, they destroyed themselves.
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  Speaker 1: Right, So this vulnerability of young people certainly is a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: central theme of what you want to do. Peter looks
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: back now and he's out. You say you didn't respect people?
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: You didn't when he went off on that path. He
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: talks about these panic attacks that he was having, which
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: I mean he genuinely believed them. Did you have any
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: any other sort of psychological in his stress? Obviously after
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: the death of your father, this period was that stressful,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: And is that a marker for you? No, I'm not
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: one to make excuses. That's not an excuse.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Well, it is an excuse. I'll tell you why. There's
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: excuses and reasons. Now he's imagined this. It wasn't true.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: He had rheumatic fever at about thirteen, and so he
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: used to get a bit of pulsation in his heart.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: We'll go and get it checked now, I'll put it
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: to you. I'm dying. What I think Because I'm dying,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go out and terrorize Victoria. If I'm dying,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: why don't you do something positive like travel?
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you also enjoyed it. You both enjoyed
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: this on some level. And I think that definitely you
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: were right about excuses and reasons. But what I'm asking you, though,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: is what true were you carrying? None?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: None? None at all none. I don't get adrenaline from
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: robbin mens. I can't understand what he was talking about
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: when he talks about adrenaline. Really, and I've explained this
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to people. I always try and take it away from
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: armed robberies. During my building life, I've fallen off two
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: roofs from two story roofs. My body has broken so
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: badly from my falls in the building trade. If I
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: have to climb up on a high scaffold, sometimes I
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: didn't want to do it because it's a long fall.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: But that's not adrenaline. That is me weighing up black
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: and white. When I was doing the robberies, I weighed
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: up black and white. If you make a decision to
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: walk through that door, you have to carry up the plans.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I worked on our rules of engagement to the letter. Okay,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: so your heart rate didn't go up.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: No, you didn't know.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: I wanted to get I wanted to put my age
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: up to go and fight in Vietnam. I would have
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: been a brilliant soldier because I can do what is necessary.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I look at that and go. I'm glad I didn't go.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't have im back then.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I'm still here today, and I've got a wonderful life
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: only because I've got purpose.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: If I didn't have purpose, I may as well leave.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: But you used to have dash, which, in your terms,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: back in those days, was the thing everyone wanted. Well,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: you and your brother had dash.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Well, A lot of people ask me about that, like,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: that's pretty brave to do that.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty brave to do that. Well, it's stupid. I'm
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: going to take stupid, but it does take some bravery.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: I really don't know.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: When I heard a first time Peter talk about adrenaline,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I went, what I think I've had more adrenaline kicking football,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: kicking a goal, walking through the very first door to
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: do an armed robbery on my own. All I could
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: think about is this is wrong. This is wrong, this
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: is not my right. I don't have this right now.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Let's get back to intimidation, because this is where I
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: changed my life. So I'm watching all this intimidation and
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: people hanging themselves, and people coming to my cell and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: begging for heavy dudes coming to my cell and sitting
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: on the end of my bed and crying and saying, Doggie,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: you've been here for eight or nine years, can you
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: help me out? Can you go and talk to people
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: and save me? And there's people out there that watch
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: my Facebook and they know who I'm talking about, and
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: they were heavy boys, because it is horrific in jail.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: What people don't realize is it's twenty four seven. For
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: eleven years, there's no rest. Get to yoursel and you
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: prepare for the next day that it could be over.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Because people don't like each other. They've all got egos hues,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: they're all trying to be up the ladder with violence.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: And what you to remember is people that are in
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: jail are in jail because they intimidated people.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: On the outside.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: They might have been intimidating their children, their wives, or
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: the bank manager, but they're in here for intimidation. So
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: you're putting all these people that intimidate people together, so
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: it can get pretty hectic.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: So we question, then, did you ever experience fear? It's
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a normal human emotion. No, my dad told me about fear,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: did he What did he say? He stepp thro a.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: I used to have a saying when people wanted to
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: take me on, I'd look them in the eye and go,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I know you, you want to get me, and I'd
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: look them in the eye and go, but never let
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: fear stop you. And I never let fear stop me
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: because it has.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: To be done. But you did experience fear, then, yes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: But that's why I go back to the high scaffle.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: I had fear up there as well, and I'd fallen
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: off two roofs, so I know what it's like to fall.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: And it was a time after my first fall that
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: I used to try and get up on a scaffle,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: and I would hang on to the scaffle, So it's eight.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: But that was because I'd lost my balance and I've
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: got head injuries. Look in life, you must do what
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: you must do in the situation. Now, the intimidation I hated.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: The intimidation I hated. I saw people kill themselves. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: it goes back even to the bank robberies. When I
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: walk into a bank, your biggest stress is not knowing
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen in three seconds. When I got
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: shot at and here trying to escape, my first thought
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: was I didn't I walked slowly towards the wall after
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: being the first shot, and my line of thought was
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: if I walked slowly, even though I'm still going towards
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: the wall, he can make a decision if he wants
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: to fire a second warning shot or kill me. But
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I'd hate to be killed because I zigged in the
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: wrong direction. So I'll give him the right to make
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: a decision, but I don't want to die. If he
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: didn't want to kill me, he's got the right now
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I've given him that right. When things have happened, you
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: have to weigh these things up, and so I know
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: what it was like to feel shot. I saw the
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: dust rise before I heard the crack, and I surrendered
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: my life to this man.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: But I wanted him to only shoot me if he
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: wanted to.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: This is an important moment, though, Okay, this is your
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: life was in danger, and this is all because you've
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: decided to be loyal to your brother and carry on
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: through being the assistant to being a fully fledged rubber
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: for a perire ti. Why did that happen if you
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: were reluctant in the beginning, What actually happened?
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Well, if you listen to his podcast, it's all about
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Peter's rules.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: He's the boss, he says the rules.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: Now, I've never accepted his rules, and this is where
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: a lot of the trouble comes because I said, I
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: never said I agree with your rules, and I'm your
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: servant for the rest of our lives.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: What we rob banks.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: So what we've got to do is look at I
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: would like to finish on the victims things for us,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: and we'll go to that because I've got it.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: That's the next thing I want to talk about. These
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: rules there is.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: In my notes, all right, So the victims, here's the
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: thing you've got your notes. I'm trying to pierce those
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: notes to get to the points that you want to.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You want to see how I developed into being a
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: bank Well, I've just got one more question on that line.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: And when you talk about the consequences and the loss
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: of purpose and all those things that happened, you could
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: rightly say, and Peter admits this, that he took you
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: down that path that ruined both your lives.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: He says that very clearly in your life. Do you
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: agree with that? No, you don't, So your brother didn't. Really,
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: I've got a higher purpose now than I've ever had. Okay,
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: that's interesting.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: So you think those experiences actually led you in a
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: a winding sort of way to this place.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: I try not to look at it as me. I
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: just happened to be the messenger. And it's a great
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: privilege to talk to young people. It's incredible. If I
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: make a difference, I will never know, but I'll give
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: it a go.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I will go to his rules, and I'll come back
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: to the intimidation because it plays three and very important things.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Because it's actually after the robberies and even after jail,
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: that I even realized more about intimidation. Right, his rules,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: he sets them. I didn't sign a contract. I was
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: the assistant. Yes, so every now and then you go
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: your turn. You've got to do a job. Nah, And
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: I put him off and need to do another job.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: And that went on for ages. Then one day he
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: started this with me. You are a parasite. You're not
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: half the man I am. You've got to do jobs
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: because you're such a weak I can't finish the word
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: I was about to say.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: It of a weaker brother. I'll clean it up.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: See that's interesting because in your relationship there was a
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: period of time. But you were bigger than him as
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: a kid.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I've never been bigger than him. He's going for a
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: but you were tougher than him anyway. No, he says,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: you beat him up a few times and you got
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: over it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: But hang on, and you're a better footballer, and you
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: were better this, and you're better that, and people liked
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: you more and suddenly he's in charge of you. That
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't very nice, was it. Well.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I've actually brought that up many occasions. He finally found something.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: He had it over me on because guess what, I
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: was still working as a carpenter, I didn't have to
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: do the robberies. I was living out at Foster. My
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: father in law was a plaster. All the other traders
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: knew me, and we used to do things like an
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: old house will be moved to a country farm, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: then we'd renovate it and they'd move in. I worked
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: it out after I went to jail. I earned more
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: money during a period of robberies than the robberies.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: I actually was.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And he tells you I was a part time, unreliable
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: because I love being a carpenter, and.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: So you're always reluctant. That's the point here is even
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: when I did the last I've lost a big chunky
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: of your life for someone who is reluctant. But it
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I'm here. I know that's true. I got no.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Problems with what I did. I've got a problem with
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: my intimidation of other men. Now let's go to his rules. Okay,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: he starts setting the rules. I don't agree with his rules.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: There's no contract. He starts calling me a parasite. I
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: think I'll.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Teach you that I'm not scared of you, Peter.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I'm going to teach you something in life, and I'm
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: going to look you in your eye. When I finished
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: teaching you, I'm going to set about over the next
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: month and I'm going to plan and I'm going to
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: rob you. Now, this will be the greatest robbery I
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: ever do, because the person I'm robbing will know who
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: did it, and then you have the option of what
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: are you going to do about it? And it's how
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: it went down. I deliberately plan to teach you not
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: to ever call me a parasite again, and he never did.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I set about and planned to rob the robber to
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: show him something that you're not my master. I'm my master.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I've allowed myself to be your assistant. You should have
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: just left it at that. Don't push me, so I
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: said about, and I planned to rob him. I take
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: his car. One day, I said, oh, can I borrow
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: your car? My I was running a bit hot, went down,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: got a key cut. I then set about waiting for
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: the right day. We go to a horse racing which
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: was at Ballarette. When it turned out I knew he
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: always carried his gun in his car, more than one gun. Well,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: he carried that gun everywhere. He made a holster and
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: wore it like starskin hutch.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: That Browning. Yes, five cow yes. I'll get to that later.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I knew that'd be in the car, and
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I knew there was a satchel of money in the boot.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: So we go to ballert races and during bedding time
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: between races, I walk into the car park and take
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: his car and bid him good day, and he doesn't
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: know what's happened. He would have been stressed like anything,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: which is great. Feel a bit at stress, Peter, what
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: you used to do away?
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: You're tapping your foot rhythmically. I'm loving this. There's a
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: bit of stress here as well.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: No, No, I'm loving this story because he was stressed
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: because he doesn't know if I've been arrested, and they're
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: waiting for him in the car park, right, So he
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: goes to look for his car and it's not there.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: He doesn't know what's gone now, and the car's gone.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I'm gone. He has no idea at this stage.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: How are you feeling when you did that? I just
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: carrying out a plan. No, but how are you feeling that?
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. I was just carrying out a plan.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Just serves you, right, yep, No, I'm carrying out my plan.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Piece of shit. Or something.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think like that. I'm just teaching you
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: a lesson. Don't you look if you push me, anybody
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: pushes me, we'll get some recoil.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So what your feeling is, I've sent you the best
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: message I possibly could. I'm taking your gun. That was
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: his trophy.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I've robbed the robber. But he didn't care about the money.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: He was so distraught about losing his gun and car.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: So I leave his car at his house with the
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: doors wide open, like as if it's been abandoned.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Right, deliberately.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: He's gracious because you know what, you know what triggers him? Oh? Yes,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: his big valley and charger.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Right. So I go down to Foster, I pick up
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: the wife and said we're going away for a couple
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: of days holiday.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: And that's all it was.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: So I go away for a couple of days and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: he's running around saying I was hiding and I was
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: doing it.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: No, I was having a ball on his money. Right.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: He said how much money was that?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: There was about five grand, okay, so it was a
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: fair bit of money in those days. So anyway, I
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: spend probably three hundred of it, right, and had a
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: good time with a wife and children for two or
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: three days. I go back to my place and I
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: see he's kicked the back door down. I see he's
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: taking my old black a white to you. But I said, well,
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: that's a fair swamp. That was my first thought. Fair swap,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: really good on you. Yeah, that's what I actually thought.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: And he's telling of it. He kicks the door in,
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: doesn't find you, but he sees the tire tracks. You've
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: dropped a wheelie as is you will want, and you've
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: gone off in a certain direction. That's what he follows.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: He spends the next day searching for you. Were you
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: aware that he was searching for you? Heinlight, Well, of
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: course I knew he'd be searching for me. But I've
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: got to gravel driveway. That's really that he's talking about.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had to leave my driveway in a hurry.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: He's still up at Bloody bellar Rat right, So like
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: this is all just his imagination.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I just went for a holiday.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I think he wasn't too far away from you, though,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, we would have interesting if he'd found you
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: in those few days. He wasn't that far away from you. Well,
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: he was on the right trail.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Wasn't he No, he was nowhere near me. He tells
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: fairy stories feed inc. He said in part of his podcast.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: He has no idea what other people do. He just
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: fantasizes the story. Anyway, So that's his problem, not my
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: problem anyway. So I get back, see what he's done,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: bring him up and go, hey, I'm back. I'll meet
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: you tomorrow. Give me a point. We'll have a coffee
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: and I'll give you back your gown and I'll probably
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: give you half your money back. You set up the
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: meeting and I'll be there. So the next day a
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: lob wherever it was, I don't remember where it was,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: but when.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: A pubby said, he said it was the worst count
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: of lunch he ever had.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Well, anyway, who I wonder if I paid out of
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: his money? Probably did anyway. So I'm sitting on the
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: other side of the table. Whatever goes down, don't remember.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: I remember passing his little pride gun right pass it
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: to him. I said, I'm going to give you half
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the money back. I give that to him. I look
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: across the table and go, you've got the gun. I
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: don't have another weapon balls in your court. I'm showing
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: him I have no fear. What do you want to
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: do now? He Now, I want to get to the
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: next bit of this. This is a great lesson. A
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: year ago, he tells me on the phone he wanted
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: to go to Ballarat horse Racing. He could not go
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: to ballaratte horse Racing track because he was still traumatized
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: by me robbing him. Now do you think how deep
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: are you thinking at the moment?
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: That also brings something else that I think he carries
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: his a bit of a trauma. I think it's quite hilarious. Actually,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: another time, I don't of themselves around this time, but
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: another time you went to his favorite horse, as he
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: describes it, and cut the tail off.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: That I think was the return for the TV cut
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: his words, to make a wig. No, that's his idea,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: because we had talked about that. But I didn't cut
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: the whole tail off. I picked the horse that was
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: in the front paddock that he could not miss seeing.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And I wouldn't cut a horse's tail off because the
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: horse uses his tail to get flies and all sorts
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: of things. Right, So I cut off enough so you
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: would notice it. So if the tail is, say a
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: meat along, I might have taken a hundred and I
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: cut it dead straight, so it was obvious there was.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: A message was that.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: The message was, well, I didn't want to cut the
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: horse's head off and put in your bed, so the
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: tailor will have to do.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One day you're going to sit around you too
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: and humor and the story, because listen, I'm over it.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: The gaps. I want the gap I need. I've got
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: my journey. And here's the thing.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: As the son of a twin, that's exactly what happened
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: with my father and his brother. They needed the gap.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: He has brought nothing good to my life.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: I sit here and tell you, honestly, I look back
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: over my seventy two years. The first time he ever
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: gave me up was in preps. Somebody took a girl
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: behind the shelter shed and kissed him. And I was
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: hauled into the head masters and said, you know you
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: can't do this.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Was it true?
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: He did it?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Not me? He did it. That's good skills. See, that's
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: why you should have That's what you should have done.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: When you both got caught. You made the big mistake.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: You should have said the other one did it. Well,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: that was the big mistake.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: But that's what we're supposed to happen. But he doesn't
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: follow the rules.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: You had your rules.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, we'll start talking about his rules. His rules
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: were I have to follow everything. He says, that's one rule,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: you know. Sorry, I just waving to the boss of Penridge.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: We're hearing Brudog by the way we're at brue Dog
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: and some background noise that that's what it is.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: And I just got away from the guy who owns
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: brew Dog or he's right up at the top of
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: the company.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: They do talk to me. I'm not a prisoner.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: You are like an institution here, Douglas.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I'm a connection with a lot of people's past. People
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: connect with me because even people that have gone to
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: war don't talk to their families about what they went through.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: What I found is that a lot of people can
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: come and sit and talk to me if they've lost
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: family members here or their family members were here fifty
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: years ago, or even prisoners come and talk to me
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: because they can finally talk to somebody about what they
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: went through. So I actually find that I've got a
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: role as a connection and I find that pretty interesting.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: And as I say, all these things happened forty fifty
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: years ago, and you're here now and you look back
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: and you do struggle to understand why you did certain things.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: You've got some reasons.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: Not excuse me, right, let's.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Go, but tell me. Let me fish the quest. This
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: is an important thing. When you're here, do you feel
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the ghost of your former self? Or is that a
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: romantic notion?
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: When I'm here, this is just a building. Because people
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: ask me all the time that come to Pentries. People
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: look me up these days and gos Dougie here when
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: they walk around the jail and come the brew dog,
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: And if I'm here, they will say, yeah, Doug's over there,
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: go and talk to him.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: A lot of questions.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: How do you feel being in an old jail whereas
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: though horrific and you got shot at this and that
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: and whatever.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I go.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you a secret. You go back to your
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: childhood home and you walk into it, it's not the same.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Your parents aren't there, your family's not there. When I
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: walk back into the jail, my associates, my enemies, the screws,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: it's just me and an empty building. A jail is
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: not a building. A jail is a building they put
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: prisoners in, and the crimes that were committed inside that
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: jail are in my brain. But when I sit here,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: this is home, this is relaxed. I'm here for a purpose, and.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: It's the same thing. Peter said. The jail is not
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the thing. It's the people in it that make it
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: so danger.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Right, Let's get to his rules, because these rules, well,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: he talks about him all the time that his rules, right,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: his rules he did not follow, right, he didn't know
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: where It's the bits that don't worry about me not
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: following his rules. I followed his rules to a t
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: except for the regularity. And he says I was unreliable. Okay,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I'll own up. Tuesdays I trained for football. Thursdays I
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: trained for football. Those days are out. Sat Days I
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: played football. That day's out. Sunday we have a barrel
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: after doing a light training station. Sunday's out. So was
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: that four days I'm out Kark. So it's not very committed.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: I was something that got a lot of years for you.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Weren't very committed, but I loved being a member of
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: the Foster community. I used to help the football club,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: one of the main guys running the bingo in the pub.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: I was very much involved in my community.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: So people are going to find that hard to understand.
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: I never felt like robbing al Bingo.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Good. That's good. That's you know, for someone who was
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: such a risk in his life. People are going to
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: find it hard to understand why you were so enthrall.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: I meanive now in thrall to your brother and this
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: clearly foolhardy series of events.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: I was just thinking back then.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: One of the bank managers at Foster, who I knew
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: through the football club, said to me one day, if
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: that after dark band had comes down here, I'm going
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: to give him anything he wants. And I went, I
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: must keep this in my memory, and laughed about it
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: to myself. Of course, all right, So Peter's rules one
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: is rules of engagement. If the job's too hot, don't
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: do it. That's the one I want to talk about.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: The job was too hot at heath Kit.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: For the third time. Rob's the same bank the third
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: time he takes the same orange debts, and I think.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: That yes he did.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: And that woman is seen in the photograph of the
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: bank standing to whoever arms cross thinking I can't I
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: can't imagine what she's thinking. Anyway, So his rules were broken,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and the thing is, and I had this discussion with him,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: and we'll get to that that that mass should not
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: be worn, because once you pull that mask on, you
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: cannot return to normal. I had spoken to him before
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I decided I didn't want to do any more jobs
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: with him the year before. I said, we have to
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: start learning to do makeup so we can walk past
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: a bank and keep walking if it's too hot. If
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: that had to happen, he could have just walked down
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: the road and Kosh would have.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Went, oh, no, he's not a bank robber. But because
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: he had pulled the mask on, that was his mo.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: They go, that guy's we're in a mask.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: So he brought that on himself because he didn't follow rules.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: That so we're not going to get to all the rules.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: But that's the one that actually got cost shot. My
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: brother not in following and I know it sounds funny,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: but we had I was serious. We had rules of
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: engagement was don't shoot people. Don't shoot people. Now he
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: blames me for breaking that rule. He listens to the
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: press too much. He hears that.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: I've shot somebody.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: You did fire a gun?
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: They didn't, Yes, But hang on, what's a gun with one?
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: He didn't.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: It was a four ten shotgun cut to a three
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: inch barrel from thirty yards. I'll tell you because I
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: am angry he portraying me as this violent shooter.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Were though neither of you were you.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: But he's let's I'm going to explain that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Let's let's let's talk about the four ten shotgun filed
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: down to three and a half pet barrel.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: He didn't have a flag saying pop. No, how right
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: I did it? So I come out of and this
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: was my mistake. I had not cased this job. He
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: had and he said do this, and he told me
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: all about this job, and I went down there to
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: do it. First thing he told me it shuts at seven.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: It shut at six thirty ohing. I'm a long way
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: from home to go home with nothing, with my tail
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: between my legs and have to explain to him why
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I've got no money tonight. So what I did was
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: I grabbed next to it. There was a mattox, so
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: I smashed the window, go into the tab, rob him
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: after hours, and go out through the back door the
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: after hours banded there, Yeah, after hours banded. Now, Now
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: the guy at the service station heard the window break.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: He's come out of his service station, and he's seen
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: me go up the paddock and onto the main road.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: I don't see him at this stage, so I'm heading
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: towards my getaway point. So robbery is mainly about disappearing.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: You must disappear at one point. Most armor robbers disappear
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: between the change of cars or whatever. We disappeared in
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: different ways because we were doing a different style. So
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I hear in the background, stop police, and oh, this
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: is not good. This is not good. Now I don't
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: carry a loaded weapon, never help. Originally I used to
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: use an imitation pistol. I paid fifty nine dollars for
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: it imitation pistol, and he paid twenty nine dollars for shotguns.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: I was very committed to not having a real gun.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Now I started carrying a shotgun that I could load
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: for warning shots, because you can't throw the bloody imitation
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: pistol at the coppers and go stop chasing me in
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: case it goes bad. So I did actually learn that
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: you really had to have a gun. Anyway, So this
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: in the background, in the dark, I hear stop police, and.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: I think, well, this is not good.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I turn and look at him and I
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: think I've got to start running faster because I haven't
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: even got a load of gun at this point. So
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I run a bit and I see a lane way,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: and this is all documented. I go into the laneway
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and I lean against the paling fence to have a
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: slight breather, reach into my pocket and put a shell
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: in the shotgun. I stepped back out into the roadway
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: and I'm under one lamp post light and he's under
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: the other, and I yell out to him, stop or
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I'll shoot you, and he says, go on, your bastard,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: and my brain went I made She's not making it
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: easy on me. I lifted the gun and I looked
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: at him from it that distance, and then I looked
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: at him down the barrel and I dropped the gun
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: about three yards to his side and about three to
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: four yards in front of him, and I let it go.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: I aim to miss him, and as well document, I
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: still hit him. Yeah, but hang on, there's even the
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: armor ofbery squad. One of them said to me. They
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: said he was hit in the chest of his it
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: didn't penetrate the jacket, and he got one that hit
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: him in the lip that didn't penetrate his lip, so
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: he wasn't even penetrated with a shell of any sort.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: It was buckshot that I used to use for the
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: birds on the farm to scare them.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: That's why I had buckshot to scare at the farm.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Now I've got bird shots for birds, buck shots for bucks. Well,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: I wasn't good at buying stuff, like I'm just a
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: country boy.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't ask him that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Actually, I didn't want to loiter too long in the gunshot,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: to be honest. Now it was put to me. They
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: ended up charging with the use of a firearm. But
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: the press and the police got together and said, we'll
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: say he shot this bloke because that will take away
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: from people thinking he is a good bloke.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Now this is really interesting because in the end Peter
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: shoots Ray Cosh yep, and he's found what innocent of that? Yep?
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: You do your warning shot and you're found guilty. Well,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? That's not fair.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I'm just glad he wasn't injured, honest, because I would
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: live with that. Now it gets worse than that. The
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: copp has said to me one of my I forget
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: which one it was. I remember shedding Kavanowski on Creasy.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: They were all writing my interviews. I just sat there
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: while they wrote the interviews. I'm pretty lazy. I couldn't
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: talk that long. They had to do it. They were
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: copying off his statements. But anyway, this is the interesting point.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: They couldn't charge me, and they told me why, we
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: don't know if you shot him or not. It could
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: have been the gravel that hit him. It could have been,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: which means that I'm not responsible for the gravel. You
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: need one of my palettes in him, and they didn't
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: have any palettes because they didn't lodge in his jacket
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: or his face, so they didn't even have any evidence.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: So I actually shot.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Him, still got chat.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: But anyway, the main thing is the press writes that
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: up the radio is selling I've shot a bloke. I
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: don't know that the press has all said that. So
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I get back to Geelong because now why did I
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: fire a warning shot? I have to stop him following me.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: What if he's a better runner and I wear out,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: So I have to get rid of him before I
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: start my getaway, because you must disappear, so I must
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: stop him. And somebody said, well, why didn't you fire
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: a shot in the air, I go because he would
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: see me shoot at the air. Not very intimidating. Now
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the second reason is if I shoot in the air,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: and if he's smart, he might realize he has to reload.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Another person. Yeah, what if he was a copper and shot.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: So the whole thing, the whole thing was really reveals
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: the fact that neither one of you are killers. Now
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: now there's another and let's get back to Peter's rules.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: He was very upset that you'd broken the rules and
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: he wanted to shoot you as a result. Now, you
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: blokes don't say sorry to each other. But I felt
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: that when he was talking in the podcast up at
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: the fact that he got a crook on you for
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: the warning shot and then he ends up shooting Ray
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Cash and shortens his life. And I think there's pretty
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: much he's guilt carry it off. Yeah, but I think
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: you need to read between the lines and what I do.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: I do And it's like he's saying I was a hypocrite.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: Well do you agree?
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: No, I'm going to go in that a second, but
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I want to go back to loading the gun. I
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: have been questioned many times why I went into the
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: lane way to load the gun. It is very bad
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: etiquette to load your gun in front of somebody, I
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: would have thought, because then he would see I'm only
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: got one shot for a start.
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: Hey, hey on, hey, you on all right, I'm ready, yeah, ready.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: So I didn't even think about loading the gun until
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: I sort of doctor there, went right, I'll step back out.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I've got to step back out. I've got to stop him,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: all right, So I stop him. I go to Geelong.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I travel for something like three or four hours across
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: country to get back to Jewel, which was the original
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: plan anyway, because I didn't really have a plan that night.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I never cased it. I didn't have a bike, I
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: didn't have a ring. I said, Peter, I'm going to
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: go and do a job tonight because I had to
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: pay for a traffic offense.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: That you caused. He caused.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: He dabbed me in.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I was running hot one day at a roadblock where
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: they checking Regio's. He didn't have his license. I said,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: use mine. He got the address wrong. I've jumped out
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: of the car and said, oh, that's mine. Where twins sais?
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: All right, I've got a license. He's got a license.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: But we didn't have one on us. He goes to
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: court because I don't think I'm really in trouble, but
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: I've been summons to court. He tells the judge it
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: was my fault because I came up with the idea
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: to use my license. I get a huge fine, lose
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: my license. He need to get nothing. He learns that you.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: Just drop people, and he follow you fellas never forget
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: the smallest issue between each other.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Well, let lead to that job.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: But what I wanted to say that is that everything changes. Yeah,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: after he shot Ray cost Sure and you were suddenly
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: not gentleman bandits anymore.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: You were.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: In fact, it was still one bandit, but that one
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: band was the shooting down.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Let's go to his rules. Still, you say that he
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: was upset. He's hurt on the radio that I've shot somebody.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: He's just believing what the radio says. He might have
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: thought I walked up when bang. When I get to it,
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: this is what I asked the question. I've broken his rules,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: his rules, not the police rules, his rules. So he
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: declares that he's allowed to kill his brother because his
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: brother broke his rules. Right, and what stopped him from
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: killing me that night? According to him, not according to me.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: According to him, he didn't know what to do.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: With my body.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: This is and it's traumatic to think that he'd be
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: handling my dead body.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: It would be traumatic, wouldn't it. Now here's the thing
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I've heard from both of you, how often that you've
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: threatened each other.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Now, I've never threatened him.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: You never have.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: He's making that up. I've never.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: I've never.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: If I didn't like you, I'm not going to threaten you, right,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: I'm not giving away anyway. I'm not giving away the
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: letting you know I don't like your My.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Point is, though, all these threats and nasties and all
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: these things, do you think it's part of your love language?
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: No?
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: No, No, you're making a joke of it.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Now that my life has been threatened about twenty times,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: even since i've been out of jail, phone calls, I'm
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: going to kill you. I've had phone calls from his
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: ex wife that he married afterwards. She was going to
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: send her people to kill me one night because there
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: was an article on TV. And he said, oh, that's
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: information Doug gave. Okay, she was sending some heavies to
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: shoot me for giving information to TV station.
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: Right back, not long after he was released.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I spent three nights sleeping in the school yard
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: across the road, waiting for heavies to come and kill me.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: So why do you think he didn't though, because he
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: could have.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: Well, what happened. I'll tell you what happened.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Three days afterwards, I stopped having to sleep in the
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: school yard at nighttime because she rings me and says,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Doug. I've just found out all the information
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: they talked about on TV was from his police statements.
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, so he said to her, it's done.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: I seem to get the blame for a few things
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: I haven't done.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Well, you do, you do? And it brings us to
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: the main point of contention. Are we finished with the rules?
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: We're finished with the rules. At some point there was
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: a rule that you don't accept still, that if you
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: were court, either one of you were court, you would
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: give the other twelve hours start. You don't agree with that.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: That happened three months and it's wrong. It happened three
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: months before the last job, or two months I decided
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: never do a job again.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: Why was that?
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: Because I thought if I continued after the war button
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: job and I brought in enough for two houses that
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: if I continue, I end up doing what he's doing,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: running on ego and not running on necessity. And I
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: looked at him and went, I don't want to be
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: like him, because he's out of control. I went to
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: his house. I've walked up to him and said, you're
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: going to stop this.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: It's over.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: You've got to stop before you get yourself killed, meet killed,
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: or we're going to go to jail. So we were afraid.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Then I didn't.
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to ruin my life.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Wasn't already ruined and you were.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: It was already ruined, but let's stop. Let's stop because
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: it's ruined. You don't keep going. Just because you've got
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: a sore foot doesn't mean you get a hammer and
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: smash it a bit more. So I gave to him
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: and say you've got to stop, and I'm going to
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: get pretty abusive. You're ruining my life, you're ruining your life.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: It's got to come to an end. He doesn't want
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: to come to an end. A fistfight breaks out, a
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: very savage fist fight, which I win again. You win again,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: I'll win again.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: The referee there was a referee.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: The referee was he pulls a little gun that he
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: loves to pull out of his back pocket, and he
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: shoves it between my eyes, and he says, and that
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: stopped the fight. I'm pretty certain that I stopped the
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: fight right there and did with a pistol between my eyes.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Well, he could technically say he won it by putting
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: the gun on your head.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: The words that followed were, this is e simply what
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: he said. If I ever get caught, you're going with me. Now,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: I'll explain the twelve hour thing. It's not good for
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: him all his life to carry in the media, in
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: jail everywhere that you gave your brother up. He tried
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: to clear that up by saying there was some are
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I put it to a lot of people. Could you
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: imagine two bank robbers sitting down and going, let's have
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: an agreement. Let's decide that we give each other up
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: after twelve hours. Nobody would believe that rubbish unless there's
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: a reason, the real original agreement. There were agreements. There
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: were agreements. Pretend this bank ground it was there was one.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: You have to be agreements, and I'll get to the
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: one you should have had that you didn't.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Well, go on, Well, he did have that. There was
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: still agreements. We were a lot smarter than people realize,
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: but he blew it. There's two parts of crime, so
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: i'll get to that.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: One's first.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: There's two parts of crime, doing a crime, and the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: second one is beating the blue if you get caught.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: But the agreement originally was, you do not carry your wallet,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: you do not talk. If you take a bullet, you
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: take a bullet for the team, if that's what happened,
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: but if you get arrested, you wear it. It's up
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: to the other brother to stay out of jail and
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: provide for two families till.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: You get out of jail. That's the original agreement.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: During all this time, we actually work out that what
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: would happen if they can't prove who did which job.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: They must place the offender who carried the gun in
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: the bank, not one of them. They could not convict
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: us unless one of us talks. We knew that, so
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: he blew the whole deal. But he blew it long
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: before I knew. Because when they went to his house,
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: they're going to convict him for about four banks. The
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: reason they're going to convict him for four banks without
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: even talking because he's carrying a gun that he stole
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: from one bank, so he's gone with that one. He's
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: gone with a three at Heathcot because he's there and
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: is still carrying a gun when he's arrested. So he's
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: done four banks that they've got him on. He calls
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: it his lucky charm, not so lucky a In.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: His interview, he said they showed him a list of
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: all the jobs twenty four to twenty five. Were they
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: all his jobs? They weren't, Were they? No, they weren't.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: So did he not take responsibility for some things that
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: you did?
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Now, we both did all the robberies, but you went
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: together all the No, we both did the robberies. I
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: got charged with all the robberies, but in your opinion,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: I should have only got charge.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: For seven Well maybe or certainly you know you charged.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: But if you work with him, we can just give
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: me this one point. Though.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: I've seen his statements, Okay, what the mistake he made?
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: And his memory is going because he's told me different
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: stories as.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: The years go on.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Everyone does that.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so you actually don't realize I'm still working in
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: that field with the prison, talking to youth, talking to
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: this I'm very alert because my life is still very,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: very full, and I know that I have to stay
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: full so I can live out a longer life without
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: being losing my brain. Now, what really happened when he escaped?
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I was part of that whole planning. You didn get
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: to go well, I was in a different division. Do
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: you want me to get to the real story of that.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: The real story is I help him from the start.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: He comes to me, and he talks other stuff. Now
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: he keeps changing. He's still close when you're in jail yet. No,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: but I realized, is I've got more to worry about
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: than giving him a fat lip as simple as uh,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: you know, he's the devil that maybe it will back
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: me up one day in jail if I really need
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: it to be backed up.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's important.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: As soon as I walked into the yards and saw him,
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: I was giving you up.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I'd rather him be on my side than everybody
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and him against me. So it gave me a bit
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: of solidarity. Because the day that Lory Prendegast King hit
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: him in front of Chuck Bennett, they're all playing cards,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: and my brother liked to be one of the big boys.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: I'm sitting over there, just being me getting some son.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: In the yard.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: I hear the thump when Lorry Predigast hits him. I
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: look over and I see Peter reeling a little bit,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: Lorry shaking his hand, standing right behind Chuck Bennett. I've
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: jumped up and glared across the top of Chuck Bennett
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: looked at Lorry and looked at that and went, we're
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: now at war with these boys. And I've jumped up.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: I've actually stepped forward, so I've committed. Laurie looks at me.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: He's not looking at Peter anymore. He's looking at me,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: and I'm looking him across the card table and I'm
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: looking straight at him, and he looks at me and goes,
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I did that because he give you up. And I
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: don't know if he was looking for an out. I'm
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: glad he found it out, because I didn't want to
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: go to war with those boys, but you're prepared to.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I jumped up without thinking. I'd made a commitment without thinking,
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: and I'm not going to back down now. If he
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: hadn't have said that, I don't know what would have happened.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: So things sometimes and I act very quickly, and I
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: would have backed him.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: I'd had to.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: It's my brother. I didn't care what he's done to me. Okay,
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what people would say, I don't care.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Maybe would say, who cares? It is your brother, Look
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: what he's done to you. I don't care. You don't care.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Because you are very loyal. I've run on what I believe.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: If you let me down, that's your problem. If you
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: let me down, I'll accept that you weren't up to it.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not angry at my brother forgiving me up. I'm
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: angry because he's never come to me and said I'm
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: sorry you.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: Blake's never say sorry to each other. But all he
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: needed that you haven't said sorry since you were a kid.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: He's been trying to make excuses. He gave me up
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: for this reason, that reason, and that reason. Peter, you're
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: out of your depth. I'd been arrested by coppers, I've
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: been questioned and held the fort and he's never done that.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: Look Peter as a sort of person and goes and
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: he will admit this.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: He just went, oh, you've got me, you know, I'll
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: tell you sorry.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: But what he doesn't realize he's telling the story that
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: affects my family as well.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: I didn't give him that right to make me go
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: to jail and my family, my.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: Children end up with a stepfather who treated them poorly
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: because Peter assisted me into jail. It wasn't that your choice,
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: to the course, But if he had to held the ground,
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: I'm still out. So but I forgive him. No, I
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: don't forgive forgive him. No, No, I don't. No, Actually
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: got it.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: I do forgive him, but I don't forget fair enough.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: That's fine. I can forgive.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: There's people in jail that gave me up, and I
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: know who. They are, very heavy people, and I went,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: so you're not at my level.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Ah, bloody hell. I feel like I should. I feel
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: like I should just body end the podcast right here
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: with you saying you forgive him, because that was actually
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: my hope and desire all the way through this nine
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: months process. I'm talking to you too. I feel I can.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: I I'm all sad that he carries so much guilt
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: and he keeps making excuses to cover his guilt.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: All right, I might edit that piece out no way now,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: But can I just get to one other point? You
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: both talked about victims.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: While I'm talking about my rebuilding my life. Yeah, all right,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: I see victims in here. I walk out of jail
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: knowing that people I've known were victims are going to
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: be rape bashed or whatever, and I'm angry at the
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: heavies I walk out of the jail. I've done a
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: lot of things in the jail where I got locked
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: up in a high security and you were hell.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: On wheels in jail. I was freaking gelig Knight. You
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: managed to get into the debork But who gets who
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: brings gelig nut into a jail? Douglas Morgan. I have
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: no idea.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway, I walk
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: out of jail, I look over my shoulder and whisper
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: for myself.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: The war is over. I just go about rebuilding my life.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Three days after being out of jail, I got a
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: job in the Maymax Donat factory on the two o'clock shift,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: trying to rebuild my life and donuts, yes exactly. Then
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: in two nine have had lunch with my girlfriend's cousin
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: in King Lake, and then a few months later King
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: Lake Burns I go up there for three years as
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: a full time volunteer assist the Solvos I run basically
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: as a storm, and in Whittlesey I used my vehicle
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: and cost a lot of money. I lost for three
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: years baying for all the petrol to run my ut
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: around all over the place. What I saw was victims
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: of real tragedy. It reminded me of the victims I
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: saw in jail. That was the second point that snapped.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I went wonder if my victims were stressed as bad
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: as these victims. How low was I? So the bushfires
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: was really the turning point. There's already been the moment, like,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: I don't like people who intimidate. As I looked at
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: my shoulders said the war was over, I went, I
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: don't like anybody that intimidates people, be it their son
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: and their daughter, their mother, their brother, whatever, you intimidate people,
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: you're a low life. If you intimidate your son, your brother,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: your mother, or your father, you're lower than a bank robber.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Because these people trust you, they can't escape, they can't
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: get a different job. They are stuck with you, intimidating
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: till you become domestically violent. I hate them, but I
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: saw a bit of that in me because I was
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: intimidating bank staff. So now I can see what real
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: victims go through. Now, this is what you have to
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: talk about, because those victims, they were members of families
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: and people after the bushfires, suicided, marriages, broke up, all
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: sorts of bad things happened after the bushfires because of
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: the stress. People argued after bushfires, you should have taken
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: our children out of that area before.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I met some incredible heroes.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: But I also met some people that did very bad
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: things during those bushfires because they didn't stand up and
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: they ran and left people behind.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: So we're getting near the end of this. Yeah, both
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: of you have felt less than whole since those days.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: You both carried what you believed to have been the
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: disapproval of your father for your choices of becoming robbers. No, yes,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: you do.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: No I did at the time.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: At the time, of course you did.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to say, though, is I disappointed
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: my father for sure.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Right, But are you also restoring your father's belief in
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: you by what you're doing now and seeking purpose and
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: moving beyond that dynamic.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: I had a conversation with my father. I still talked
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: to him. I remember having a conversation to him one
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: day and saying, Dad, I read somewhere it's three generations
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: to get crime out of your family. I got out
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: of it in two and I told him we're okay.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: I fixed it.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: When I look back on.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: The work I do with young people, I used to
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: go into Raven Hall Prison and talk to prisoners about
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: growing up and not ruining the rest of their lives
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: and changing their ways. I had another conversation with my
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: dad and said, we're squeaky clean, Dad, we're back, and
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: that about me.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: It's about my grandchildren.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: It's about my children, and it's about the next generation
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: after that.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: That's great. We're clean. We're clean.
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: People walk up to me and shake my hand from
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: my redemption. Nobody's ever walked up to me and shook
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: my hand for being a bank robber. And if they did,
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: I'd say, your kid nun't you?
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: Actually?
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: I had somebody when I was in jail. I was
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: in the drama group and a woman said, oh, my
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: son wants to talk to you because he used to
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: mix with the crowd. Afterwards, my son wants to talk
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: to you. He's heard about you. And I said, oh,
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: that's pretty sad.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: I'm a bankcropper. We made some significant progress in this
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: nearly a year of discussions, Douglas, I've extracted from both
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: of you some self deprecating mere cuppas, if you like,
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: and on occasion, just a little inkling of forgiveness.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: For one, I've never been dirty on him, Yes you have,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: no I'll tell you when I was dirty on it.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Let me speak, I'll tell you exactly when I was
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: dirty on him. I'm sitting on the run. I don't
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: know he's really going to give me up. The disappointment
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: when I saw my face on a show, I turned
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: to my girlfriend and I said, I don't believe it.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: He actually gave me up. It was disappointment. But he
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: told you he was going to give you up. You
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: don't believe it. I don't believe it.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: See So do we get to the point here?
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: It's so stage. What's the port There's nothing left between you.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: There's just this history that's nearly fifty years ago.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: I bid him good day and hope him well. I
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: think he does the same for you. Well good on him,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: and I'm very happy for him. But please stay out
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: of my life and let me do what I need
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: to do, because you're at a distraction, and you've never
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: brought anything good to my life.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: So let's call it quits. Now call it quits. Now
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: leave the gap.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: Let's just leave a gap.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: I think we should call it quits before we start
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: new fronts in this war. Doug, thank you.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: For I want to tell you something.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: I'll go home tonight and I've got the train set
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: in my office that my dad started building for me
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: when I was five, My workbench in my workshop that
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: I make all the memorabilia at Penriage is a big
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: sheet of plywood on top of my dad's boot, your table,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: His ashes are behind my desk. He is going to
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: be on my son's mantal piece when I go. My
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: son is going to put me and my dad on
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: his manual piece together.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: Sorry, Peter, you're not there.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure he's got his own set of remembrances.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: And then, well, but do you think you've achieved happiness
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: out of all this, Douglas, I've always been happy.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I always even happy when they accuse me of four
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: sticks as Shelley light.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: That's another podcast. I want to thank you for both
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: of you. You've been very tolerant of me pestering you
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: and trying to I guess reset a few things. I
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: really enjoyed it, and my only regret is this will
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: be the last time we'll speak for a little while,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: but I hope we can resume on other matters, and
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: also to follow your progress, because I think you've got
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: an amazing opportunity. You've turned a lot of negative stuff
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: into creative energy, and you're sharing that with people.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: That's why I'm happy.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd agree with that, so thank you very much.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: And there was a footnote, but I forgot what it is.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: But really, people, if it doesn't work, people get divorced.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: So what we're divorced.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: As long as you're not robbing banks together, I think
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: the public is safe.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Oh I wonder if you'd follow my rules next time.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: I'll check and get back to it. You know one
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: thing I do, and you can add this back in.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: One thing I learned from there wasn't too many good crooks.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: And I walked out of jail thinking, my god, if
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: I ever had to let loose, there would have been
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: some great, big robberies.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: But I just wasn't that way inclined.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: No, No, believe it there, Doug, And I think that's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: a good point, there aren't many good crooks, particularly have
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: to work with others. The only good crooks I've ever
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: worked on their own exclusively, and no one ever gave
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: them up their own stupidity. Maybe a couple of times
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: got picked them up, but otherwise you worked on your own.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: That's the best way to commit crime. But you're not
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: here to commit crime. Here to listen to true crime podcasts.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: If you want to report a crime, please call crime
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: stoppers one had to Triple three, triple zero. If you
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: don't trust the coppers, you can always send me an email,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Adam she had to write at gmail dot com. I
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: think this is the last we've heard of the morments
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: for the moment, but don't better on it. That's enough
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: of you.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 5: Thanks for listening, Thanks for listening to this episode and
• 1:03:07
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• 1:03:11
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• 1:03:14
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• 1:03:17
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• 1:03:21
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• 1:03:24
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• 1:03:26
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• 1:03:29
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