Latest / Let's Talk with Carl Lee / The High School NIL with Attorney Paul Saluja - Hosted by Carl Lee, Hollis Lewis, and Lisa Otey

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The High School NIL with Attorney Paul Saluja - Hosted by Carl Lee, Hollis Lewis, and Lisa Otey · Let's Talk with Carl Lee

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta work. You gotta work, ry Shine, It's
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: mine gotta show.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Everybody is mine.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Sign you gotta work, Crime Shine another mind.
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  Speaker 2: I'm trying to die to day line. Don't talk, You've
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: gotta burk.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome to Let's Talk with Carl Lee and frequent guest
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  Speaker 3: hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
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  Speaker 3: community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
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  Speaker 3: conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
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  Speaker 3: Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
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  Speaker 3: Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
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  Speaker 3: by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
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  Speaker 3: one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: on Let's Talk.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
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  Speaker 2: and I have my two co in the building tonight
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  Speaker 2: with me, Hollis Lewis, Hello, Hello, and Lisa Odie, and
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  Speaker 2: we have a very special guest and we're gonna talk.
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  Speaker 2: We're gonna talk about some nil stuff which is seemingly
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  Speaker 2: keeps returning in different forms in fashion, and so we
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  Speaker 2: can't afford but not to address it. So Hollis, let
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  Speaker 2: us let us introduce allR to help us navigate this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: We have attorney Paul Solution and he's working in the
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  Speaker 2: sports management sports agency space. Am I correcting that that
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  Speaker 2: is correct?
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  Speaker 4: We do help athletes.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, So recently the w v s SAC, which is
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  Speaker 2: the West Virginia Secondary Athletic Conference Association, they passed the
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  Speaker 2: policy in which middle school and high school students would
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  Speaker 2: now be eligible to cash in on ni L. So
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  Speaker 2: if you could just walk us through kind of what
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  Speaker 2: the policies entails and you know, how should we be
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  Speaker 2: thinking about navigating this and in their future.
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  Speaker 4: Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for coming.
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  Speaker 4: I appreciate all of you, know each of you, and
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  Speaker 4: it's wonderful to be here. But to answer your question,
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  Speaker 4: the reality is West Virginia is finally joining the NIL bandwagon,
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  Speaker 4: where the fourth forty fourth state that has actually implemented
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  Speaker 4: and the policy is basically fairly straightforward. What they've changed
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  Speaker 4: is that a student athlete can receive compensation for their name, image,
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  Speaker 4: and likeness. There are some restrictions on that. For example,
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  Speaker 4: they cannot enter the transfer portal and be enticed by
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  Speaker 4: nil money. There's certain restrictions such as they can't advertise
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  Speaker 4: for alcohol, tobacco and other things. They're also not permitted
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  Speaker 4: to use the school logo or anything like that. But otherwise,
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  Speaker 4: as long as they abide by those they should be
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  Speaker 4: able to be compensated for their brand, their image, and.
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  Speaker 2: Likeness and prior In different from the NCAA policy, or
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  Speaker 2: at least the former policy, they actually have to do
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  Speaker 2: something in a promotional capacity. So they cannot just like
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  Speaker 2: receive quote unquote payments directly from school alumni both booster collective.
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  Speaker 4: Correct, that is correct. So they have to you know,
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  Speaker 4: it could be anything from an autograph session. It could
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  Speaker 4: be anything from promoting a little drill session that they
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  Speaker 4: come out, so that there's a lot of things that
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  Speaker 4: can be done. But yes, they do have to do
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  Speaker 4: something for it. They have to quote unquote earn it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so when you say earn it, does that?
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  Speaker 2: Can I earn that also by participation by my.
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  Speaker 4: So it's not pay for play, Okay, that's separate.
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  Speaker 5: So let me ask you this then, if i'm if
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  Speaker 5: i'm if I'm the top player, on a team.
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  Speaker 2: Isn't it most likely that I'm going to be that
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  Speaker 2: guy or girl that's gonna get get most likely to
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  Speaker 2: get the deal.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not so sure. You know, if you think about it,
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  Speaker 4: it goes back to there's no I in team.
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  Speaker 2: I understand that yet.
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  Speaker 4: But realistically, uh, you may have a stellar athlete, but
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  Speaker 4: ultimately you know they're being compensated, not just they're being
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  Speaker 4: compensated for not just.
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  Speaker 2: Their uh.
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  Speaker 4: Athletic prowess, but they're being compensated for their brand, that name,
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  Speaker 4: image and likeness. And I say that because they have
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  Speaker 4: to develop that brand, they have to develop a notoriety,
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  Speaker 4: they have to develop a following, and I think that
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  Speaker 4: that's where you're going to see certain student athletes stand
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  Speaker 4: out and others fall behind. So even though you may
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  Speaker 4: be the stellar athlete, you may have someone else who
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  Speaker 4: is a supporting athlete, but he or she may be
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  Speaker 4: able to develop a greater brand by virtue of how
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  Speaker 4: they market themselves.
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  Speaker 2: I would argue that that's going to be the real
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  Speaker 2: winners in this is the kids who and their parents
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  Speaker 2: who understand how to market. Just because you're the star athlete,
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  Speaker 2: that's not any guarantee that you're going to get any
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  Speaker 2: money from this. There was a student that he just
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  Speaker 2: graduated from South Charleston High School's name was and this
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  Speaker 2: is what they call him, Missus Moniker online. His name
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  Speaker 2: is a white boym and he has millions of millions
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  Speaker 2: of you know, social media followers. So if he was
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  Speaker 2: somebody who was playing in some sort of sport at
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  Speaker 2: the high school, he would cash in and without necessarily
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  Speaker 2: having to be the star. So I don't think it's
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  Speaker 2: necessarily like you're the best player, so you're gonna get
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  Speaker 2: the money. And I know who you're talking about, and
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  Speaker 2: I could and I could justifiably say he would be
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  Speaker 2: he was just good enough. But he was so known
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  Speaker 2: and everybody recognized him. He would be the guy that
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  Speaker 2: I would go to to talk to just because I
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  Speaker 2: know he's gonna just through the school, just him being
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  Speaker 2: in the school, he's going to be a person that's
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  Speaker 2: going to bring me attention.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, And when you think about it, you've actually hit
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  Speaker 4: the nail on the head. You know, all these businesses
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  Speaker 4: that want to, you know, pay a student athlete to
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  Speaker 4: promote their business using their brand. They want to have
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  Speaker 4: a return on their investment. And that's going to involve
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  Speaker 4: who can get the word out the best. You know,
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  Speaker 4: as you indicated Hollis, you may be the best athlete,
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  Speaker 4: but what if you're just a supporting athlete and you've
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  Speaker 4: got a million followers. I'm not so sure I wouldn't
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  Speaker 4: spend my money on that as opposed to you know,
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  Speaker 4: just the stud quarterback.
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  Speaker 6: So so so, Paul, first of all, thank you so
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  Speaker 6: much for helping us navigate these, uh, these new waters
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  Speaker 6: that West Virginia's excuse me entering with with NIL. But
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  Speaker 6: I read through the policy today some of the you know,
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  Speaker 6: different pieces of it. In one part kind of you
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  Speaker 6: mentioned this already, but you mentioned that student athletes may
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  Speaker 6: not wear the appair or display the logo or identifying
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  Speaker 6: mark of an NIL partner during any team activity. So
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  Speaker 6: we're not just talking about like game day. Like so
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  Speaker 6: let's say that they have this deal with you know,
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  Speaker 6: some company, and they wear a shirt to practice or
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  Speaker 6: meet the team, or there's a booster activity. What will
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  Speaker 6: there be like ramifications for those activities as well, just
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  Speaker 6: not just.
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  Speaker 4: Game day the way I read it. And then please
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  Speaker 4: understand this is all brand news. We'll surely we need
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  Speaker 4: guidance from the W S, S A C. The reality is,
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  Speaker 4: I'm not sure that I do think the way it's
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  Speaker 4: written it would encompass those other activities even if you
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  Speaker 4: had practices. I think that they're not allowed to bring
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  Speaker 4: in who they're advertising for.
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  Speaker 2: I say, I read it the other way. I thought
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  Speaker 2: you couldn't like advertise it, like when you're doing these
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  Speaker 2: endorsements and brand deals, you couldn't have the school's logo.
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  Speaker 2: That's how that did I read it that. I thought
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  Speaker 2: I read that that is one part. That's what's great. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: maybe I missed out. Okay, So are we saying that
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  Speaker 2: we can't we can't necessarily do the school, nor can
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  Speaker 2: we do not during a school I don't think it
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  Speaker 2: could be crossed over. So they have to be separate.
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  Speaker 6: This is the way I understood it. Right, during any
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  Speaker 6: any type of school activity, you cannot promote your your
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  Speaker 6: NIL partner.
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  Speaker 2: So my so, my NIL partner is going to be
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  Speaker 2: the person who's going to get me a signing. So
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  Speaker 2: if I get a signing, I can't necessarily talk about
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  Speaker 2: or where anything from the school.
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  Speaker 4: That is correct.
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  Speaker 2: If I'm at the school and I'm performing, playing or anything,
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  Speaker 2: I can't wear being in il donation or payment, I
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  Speaker 2: can't show that company that is okay. So that's the
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  Speaker 2: that's kind of the dividing piece. Yeah, that makes sense now,
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  Speaker 2: and reading through the policy, I had two major issues
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  Speaker 2: with the policy. Like I said earlier, I think the policies,
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  Speaker 2: you know, it's thoughtful in that and it's a true
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  Speaker 2: in I l it's not a pay for play as
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  Speaker 2: we talked about earlier. But and we'll dress one at
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  Speaker 2: a time. The first one is like, I don't understand
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  Speaker 2: the thought behind allowing middle schoolers to do this. It
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  Speaker 2: seems like way too early to start getting involved in
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  Speaker 2: this sort of thing.
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  Speaker 4: The point, you know, I think market forces will probably
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  Speaker 4: decide whether or not middle schoolers will get anything. I'm
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  Speaker 4: not sure they will. Yeah, you know, remember the businesses
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  Speaker 4: or whoever spending the money does want some return on
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  Speaker 4: their investment. They're not just you know, throwing their money away.
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  Speaker 2: That's a first and I guess my other problem, my
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  Speaker 2: other issue with the with it is that the coaches,
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  Speaker 2: they don't have any sort of say so. They they're
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  Speaker 2: sort of xed out of this whole process. And again
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  Speaker 2: I think that's good from the perspective that now you're
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  Speaker 2: not going to have coaches, you know, playing quote unquote
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  Speaker 2: middleman in between you know, a brand and you know,
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  Speaker 2: maybe a player or something to that effect. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: can coaches capitalize on this too? Shouldn't it be some
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  Speaker 2: sort of say and you know, shouldn't something come through
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  Speaker 2: the coach as far as.
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  Speaker 4: Well, the way it's written, coaches and uh, school administrators
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  Speaker 4: and everyone are not permitted to be involved in that.
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  Speaker 4: And I think they were just trying to ensure that
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  Speaker 4: they separated out to pay for play and truly go
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  Speaker 4: with the brand and the student athletes name image and
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  Speaker 4: like it.
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  Speaker 2: Is what it appears. And okay, so with that, I
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  Speaker 2: would think, and Hollis, I'm curious about what you think
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  Speaker 2: about this. If I'm a coach and let's say I
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  Speaker 2: have maybe three two three players that I think could
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  Speaker 2: fit this model, I would think that it would be
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  Speaker 2: to your advantage to be able to talk to me
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  Speaker 2: and have me now and this is not with my
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  Speaker 2: kid being part of that mixture, but just me as
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  Speaker 2: the coach and my players. And you come and you
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  Speaker 2: want to be you want to do it, you want
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  Speaker 2: to pay this guy, And I'm thinking, well, but Hollis,
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  Speaker 2: is probably the guy that's going to be the more beneficial,
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  Speaker 2: the more bang for your buck. I would like, I
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  Speaker 2: would think that that would be something that would be
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  Speaker 2: critical to have that conversation. It's almost like scouting without
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  Speaker 2: talking to the coach. Yeah. I think the problem with
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  Speaker 2: that though, is that if you get coaches in the
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  Speaker 2: mix to that degree, then you're gonna have some hands
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  Speaker 2: in the cookie jar and and coaches would now have
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  Speaker 2: the power to sort of pull and and and you know,
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  Speaker 2: shape in il deals, and that could get dicey. So
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  Speaker 2: I so I understand the the bb S s a
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  Speaker 2: c's policy in that it just seems like to totally
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  Speaker 2: ex coaches out far as just like because I guess
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  Speaker 2: as a coach, I would want to know at least, hey,
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  Speaker 2: I would want to know kind of what you're involved
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  Speaker 2: into a certain degree because I need to figure out
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  Speaker 2: practice schedules, I need to figure out your timing. And
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  Speaker 2: you're also going to have situations in which some kids
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  Speaker 2: they don't really have any other advisors, they don't have
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  Speaker 2: to your point, they don't have anybody else. And and
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  Speaker 2: to confirm that we have a we have a mom
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  Speaker 2: who is has her has her son in youth football today.
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  Speaker 2: She knows nothing like how the helmet works, how the
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  Speaker 2: shoulder pads work, what if that moves up and there's
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  Speaker 2: an opportunity for that kid. Not saying she couldn't learn
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  Speaker 2: the game, but now all of a sudden, you have
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  Speaker 2: a parent who really doesn't even know what what the
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  Speaker 2: game is. And and this is really not a legal
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  Speaker 2: question more so than just hey, this is one of
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  Speaker 2: those kind of situations that you could come up with
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  Speaker 2: which could end up maybe being a disaster.
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  Speaker 6: I have to find a good friend, right, you know, Yeah,
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  Speaker 6: I'm a good friend or family member that that knows
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  Speaker 6: the game, or agent.
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  Speaker 4: Agent, yeah, agent. But the reality is, I think lots
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  Speaker 4: of times, if you think about it, most shodent athletes
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  Speaker 4: and their parents rely on their circle of friends. And
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  Speaker 4: I think that's where that's going to be more incumbent
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  Speaker 4: than ever. It's gonna be very important.
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  Speaker 2: So you're saying that because I know Hollis, Hollis May,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to go. I'm more likely to go to
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  Speaker 2: Hollis and ask him what do you think about this situation?
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  Speaker 4: And he can give me the basically exactly. Yeah, And
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  Speaker 4: you know, you go to Lisa, you go to halls.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, both are very knowledgeable about sports, and they
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: can provide good guidance that's quote unquote unofficial guidance that
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  Speaker 4: has no nothing that would jeopardize your ability to get
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  Speaker 4: the nil money.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And I would think I would think that also
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  Speaker 2: creates the need for having an attorney be in and
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: around that situation. That would to me, I would make
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  Speaker 2: that that that makes the case that that's something that
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: would be extremely important if you really don't know when
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  Speaker 2: you may not want to trust just calling me and saying, hey,
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  Speaker 2: what do you think. I may think something, but you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to think it through. Maybe more like
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: you may look.
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  Speaker 4: At it, I would look at it differently. And obviously,
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  Speaker 4: you know all these student athletes were talking about they're
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: all minors, right, So realistically, not only do you have
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: a minor, you've also got to worry about the contractual
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: obligations and you have to have a parent or a
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  Speaker 4: legal guardian sign off on for it to be valid. Right.
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  Speaker 4: So we so it's not just I mean at the
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  Speaker 4: high school and the middle school level, you there are
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: other issues that aren't really issues at the collegiate level.
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  Speaker 6: So I'm going to go a different direction, Paul, with
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  Speaker 6: this policy. So I know that it's fluid and it's early,
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  Speaker 6: and you know, this is it's going to take years
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  Speaker 6: to really perfect, you know, what they want to get
• 15:24
  Speaker 6: out of this policy, of course, But one part of
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: it that I read a student for you know, if
• 15:29
  Speaker 6: they have some type of you know, infraction against what
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: they're allowed to do and not allowed to do, and
• 15:37
  Speaker 6: they lose their amateur status, they have to wait. They
• 15:41
  Speaker 6: have to wait a complete year, one complete high school
• 15:45
  Speaker 6: season before they can reapply for reinstatement. That's what I read.
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
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  Speaker 4: I will just say that, I mean it is a fraction.
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  Speaker 4: I think that that could be subject to litigation. Okay,
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  Speaker 4: I see.
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  Speaker 6: What you're saying, because the interpretation of this is so
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  Speaker 6: you know, we're not even sure.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, you're not even sure, you know.
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  Speaker 6: I mean we're asking questions and we're like, well, we
• 16:16
  Speaker 6: don't know because it hasn't happened yet. So you know
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  Speaker 6: that that's a pretty stiff penalty for a student athlete
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: that's only in high school hoping to make it to
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: the collegiate level and they mess up and they break
• 16:28
  Speaker 6: a rule and somebody's you know, kind of out to
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: get them or whatever and report them to the w
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: v S S a C. Then they end up sitting
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: out a year because they wore a T shirt to
• 16:36
  Speaker 6: the wrong place.
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: And what if they were a senior exactly?
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, that's a yeah. I'm with you on
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: that one. Now, as far as like you know, expectations,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: like you know, like I said we talked about earlier,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: as far as getting some n I L deals, what
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: would be your advice to parents and student athletes to
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: say to maximize their opportunities while they're still in high
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: school and middle school?
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  Speaker 4: You know? To me, I think it's simple. Uh, Businesses
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: want to return on their investment, and businesses want to
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: associate with good students, good athletes, and those that are
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: not in trouble. And I say that and coaching can
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: probably attest to it. I'm sure in some of the
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: contracts you had there were morality clauses and if you
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: violated one of the morality clauses, you lost your your contracts.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: Correct in this case, I think you're going to see
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: more and more of that. They're going to have morality clauses.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: So things that we did as a kid, and I'll
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: tell you I was not perfect as a child and
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: I got into but the reality I think you're going
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: to see these student athletes. I think it's going to
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: help the parents and it's going to help the student
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: athlete recognize it. Look, maybe I should think before I
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: do this, And I think you may have some tangential
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: benefits out of this NIL because some of those student
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: athletes are going to think twice before they do something.
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  Speaker 2: And I think too, you know, you kind of emphasize
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  Speaker 2: the parent also, because I think sometimes that parent who
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: has that talented kid who may be in line for
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: these opportunities, could all of a sudden because they think
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: that they're getting ready to get it. There's things that
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: they say, things that they do that they probably shouldn't.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: They could end up being They could end up becoming
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: the reason why a kid could lose out on an
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: NIL deal, just simply because of how they handle themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Because they think, Oh, I've got this kid, somebody's already
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: talking to him, we've got an attorney, we've got this
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: great deal, and you're saying all these things that you
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: might not be allowed to say. So I would think,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: so if I'm a parent, where do I go to
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: get that information of what I can and can't do.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Is that something that they can get, Is it something
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: they're supposed to know or they got to figure it out?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: How would they.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: Well, I would hope that the WSSAC would open up
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: a kind of like a guidance email so that you
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: can send them an email or give them a call
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: so that you can get clarification. I would hope that
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: that would be part of the process as all this unravels.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: If not, they can come seek professional advice. Obviously that
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: ultimately costs money, but the reality is there should be
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: a number of ways, And first and foremost, I hope
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: the s SAC opens up a guidance line, for lack
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: of a better some type.
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: Of website or something that you.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Could go and where everybody and I know we talked
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: about earlier West Virginia being the forty fourth state to
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: implement high school and middle school NIL policies, and could
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: you just talk about the necessity of really having to
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: do this now, because I think we were at a
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: sort of at a breaking point where we could potentially
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: lose athletes to other states if we didn't well.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: So earlier this year I had a student athlete that
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: asked me to see what we can be what could
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: be done for nil at the legislature. We went and
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: unfortunately we were not successful with that, but at least
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: the momentum carried and it ultimately changed. And I raised
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: that issue because the West Virginia delegates and the West
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: Virginia senators that were on the border counties were the
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: ones that were most appreciative of the efforts and were
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: very much in support. And if you think about it,
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: why because if you have a stellar athlete at Huntington,
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: they could have gone to Kentucky, which at the time
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: didn't have it, now does Ohio, which already had it.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: So West Virginia would have lost a stellar athlete. West
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: Virginia would have lost the positive press on a national basis.
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: And you know what, as much as our government has
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: told us that we don't have moneys and that we're
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: in the red, it'll help with the tax base because
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: guess what, when you make money, you gotta pay their taxes.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: Are yeah, yeah, And I think for me that's sort
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: of a major point because we've seen a lot of
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: you know, athletes in the Huntington Cable County area sort
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of jumped those borders. So it's definitely important that and again,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I know everybody doesn't like it, but I think it
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: was necessary. And I just applauded wv S SAC forgetting
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: it done now and not being fiftieth point.
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: We're forty fourth.
• 21:54
  Speaker 7: Here's what I kind of wonder about, though. You've got
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: all these online platforms, and now you've got all these
• 22:01
  Speaker 7: folks that have become influencers, who have got tens of thousands,
• 22:04
  Speaker 7: sometimes hundreds of thousands, even millions of followers. And yeah,
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: so they might be the stud of a football team
• 22:13
  Speaker 7: or on a basketball team or whatever. They might be
• 22:16
  Speaker 7: that star player, but they've also already got a following
• 22:20
  Speaker 7: that really has nothing to do with that. They just
• 22:23
  Speaker 7: happen to excel in a lot of different things. So
• 22:26
  Speaker 7: does that maybe create a little bit of a gray
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: area where you've got companies that have already been doing
• 22:31
  Speaker 7: brand deals with these people for their social media following
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: and it just so happens that they're also the star
• 22:39
  Speaker 7: player at such a certain school or what have you.
• 22:43
  Speaker 7: You know that are we just is that what maybe
• 22:46
  Speaker 7: brought us to why we need this in the first place,
• 22:49
  Speaker 7: is rather than just trying to skirt around and say,
• 22:52
  Speaker 7: oh no, no, you know, we've got a brand deal
• 22:53
  Speaker 7: with that kid because they've got a huge social media following.
• 22:56
  Speaker 7: It has nothing to do with them being a star athlete.
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: Just to tack this head on, say you know what
• 23:02
  Speaker 7: this kid is worth it, We're just gonna pay them
• 23:04
  Speaker 7: what they deserve.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: You know, I think it needed to be I think
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: it needed to be a tack head on. But you
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: made a good point. I think that would have been
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: in the gray area. When you have a student athlete
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: who's got a tremendous following, whether they're a stellar athlete
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: or not, those million followers, that's worth a substantial amount
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: of money to social media, and as a result, businesses
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: are willing to pay that. You see all these social
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: media influencers on TikTok and on Facebook and Instagram, and
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: the minute they get these followers, they put something out
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: everybody jumps on it.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to figure out just in
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: this piece of the conversation, I'm thinking, Gosh, I can
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: think of a whole lot of guys in the NFL,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: guys that I played college ball, if they were getting
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: paid for the influence that they had the following of
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: the audience. I mean, are we heading that direction?
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: You look at the Gronk I mean you think about
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: his social media following, right.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, the baby Gronk kid.
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: Look at the reality is he developed an excellent branding
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: of himself and leveraged it.
• 24:22
  Speaker 7: When you have to wonder two the Kelsey Brothers making
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: more money now with their new heights of podcasts than
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: they are playing on the NFL field, I mean probably,
• 24:31
  Speaker 7: And I think.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: That's one of the issues as well, because when you
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: talk a guy like like Paul George, for example, one
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: of his criticisms is that he'll go out play for
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the seventy six is lay an egg and the next
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: day he's on his podcast and actually management, the coaches
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: made him actually stopped doing the podcast until you like
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: get it together. So one of the issues, again I've
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: talked about earlier, is that I think now we're in
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: this situation in which, and I think this is probably
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: gonna be more so on the parents. They're sort of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: putting more emphasis on developing the brand than developing the
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: athleticism on the field and court.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: That's a you know, so, I mean there has to
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: be a balance. Yeah, And I and hollers. To your point,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: I'm you know, I do we. I'm involved with youth sports,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: and I had a peak at the middle school teams,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: and I've had a peak at the high school. As
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: far as coaching, it's way easier, or at least it
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: seems way easier to get a following than it is
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to become a great player. I don't know, you know.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: And and but to your point, what can I just
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: go out there and and and and chase a following,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: chase this image that I can create and I can
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: be the third string quarterback and I can make money.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: The answer is yes, The answer is absolutely, And that
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: actually might be hilarious. Yes, you stream quarterback out there?
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: It Yeah, I mean because if you're looking at it
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: and you can say, okay, well, Hollis is better than me,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: variants better than me. This is my gig.
• 26:14
  Speaker 7: I'm getting.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: This is my gig. They out there chasing each other
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: trying to be a starter. You know what, I'll just
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: chase social media and I'll be funny and I'll make money. Yeah,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: all right, cats the kittens? Have you heard?
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  Speaker 3: Now back to the conversation.
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: Since we're talking about ANIL and are at one of
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: our other favorite subjects on this podcast, Paul is the
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: te transfer portal of course in the state, that's our
• 28:04
  Speaker 6: other one. So I read an article and Wayne Ryan,
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: who's the executive director of the w b SAC, had
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: made a comment and I just wanted to get your
• 28:14
  Speaker 6: thoughts on this. But he mentioned that if students couldn't
• 28:19
  Speaker 6: transfer for athletic reasons as freely as they can now,
• 28:24
  Speaker 6: this would not be as big of an issue the NIL.
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: So he's blaming a lenient transfer rule rather than the
• 28:32
  Speaker 6: other parts that we're discussing. Can you kind of ex
• 28:35
  Speaker 6: what do you think he means by that statement? Can
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: you expand on that.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: I'm really not sure what his thought process is. I
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: mean the transfer portal in it's a separate issue. It's
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: a separate issue. And also you only allowed one free transfers,
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: right right, right, right, is what they've put into their
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: rules and REGs, even though the legislature, by the way,
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: had had it said different. They said, at least one
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: the wording in the statutes different than what w S
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: s AC is embodied.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: So and I think, go ahead. I'm sorry, yeah, And
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I was saying to Lisa's point, there are there is
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: a mention in the policy that you cannot transfer strictly
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: for nil in the policy right.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Right, But but I want to, you know, maybe go back.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: And you know, I know Lisa comes from an awesome background.
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: She was a former teacher. And you know we've we've
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: said and if you've noticed, I've said a number of times,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: it's a student athlete. So nil, they're looking at nil
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: for amateur status. We have to look at it also
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: from a different perspective. What if you have a good
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: chess player for you know, good point and or what
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: if you have someone that's on a robotics team and
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: there's an attorney in towns front of mine, his son
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: is competed nationally in these robotic competitions with his team.
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: What about them? What if all of a sudden you
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: got Elon Musk who decides, you know what, I like
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: that team and I need to spawn.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: And think about that also?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I mean the spelling Bee champ. I would imagine as
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: far as like in middle schools particularly, there's probably no
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: bigger start athletically otherwise.
• 30:24
  Speaker 6: Than like this extracurricular than it is.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: It's athletic.
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: I mean, it can be athletic, but it can also
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: be extracurricular, right, I mean.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: Well, ws SAC is West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Commission activities,
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: so it embodies more.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, what's crazy about that? Nobody
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: thinks that when you hear that you automatically go to
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: a sport. You don't think. No, there's nothing about that
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: makes me think academics. But now that you say that,
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, I would think that maybe those kids might
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: even have a bigger opportunity I think, so you know
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: what I mean, Like I said, could you look at
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: like the spelling b champion that's a nationally televised event,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: and if you're the champ of the spelling being for
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: seventh grade. Think about the sponsorship and promotional opportunities that
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: may be there for commercials nationally, local and otherwise.
• 31:17
  Speaker 7: Well, and even activities like music or the arts, for example,
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: marching band, show choir. All of that is also dictated
• 31:26
  Speaker 7: by the rules of the wv S SAC.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: And what's interesting about that is that that's something that
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: we don't necessarily look at. At least I'm gonna make
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: the case maybe I'm stereotyping me and you, Hollis, but
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: that we don't consider part of the s SAC. I
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: think most people don't. Most people are looking at athletics,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: and I would think in sports, yeah, yeah, for sure,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: everything is quota team sport. But when you start mentioning
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: these other things, I actually like that even better than
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I to with with the sport. But that brings up
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: an interesting point too, because the fact of the matter
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: is like the way again, I like how the policy
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: was written, but it's also written in a manner that
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: you really because you can't mention your accolades, whether it
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: be in the activity or on you know, the field
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: or court. It almost creates a situation in which you
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: really can't use how good you are in these things.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: It really is like you have to be a brand
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: outside of the sport. Even because I can't mention that
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I'm the quarterback for South Charleston High. I can't mention
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: that I'm the captain of the chess team for this
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: particular school. So the way it's written now that I'm
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: thinking about it, it almost makes it even a little
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: bit harder to capture that nil the strictly based off
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: how good I am at this particular activity in sport.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: And you know, you raise a good point because it
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: is your brand, name, image and likeness is your brand.
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: You know, if you look back and going back to sports,
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: many of you remember EA Sports they had that college
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: football and they had that game. They discontinued, I believe
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: in around twenty eleven. It's back now it is back,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: and why because now they're paying the student athletes because
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: in the past they weren't and it was their brand.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: Remember the student athlete's name wasn't on. Yeah, it had
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: their number and it had their statistics, but that's still
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: their brand, and those student athletes should be compensated for it,
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: and they have to develop that brand, I guess in
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: parallel to their athletic achievement, And I.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Guess that's my point. It seems like it's going to
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: be difficult, Like I said, if you just the start,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: like if you don't necessarily have big social media following
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: all that other things, it seems like it's going to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: be difficult to really cash in on the NIL without
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: letting the audience and the people know. Hey, I'm the
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: star quarterback of here, I'm the captain of the basketball team.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I play tennis here. Do you see what I'm saying.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: I knew because the EA sports example that you used,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: it's that quarterback, that left tackle, that defensive back in
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: association with that school brand. So there'll become one.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: But you know, Uh, I went to g W and
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: graduated a couple of years ago. When we got when
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: we graduated, uh my, this will date me uh my
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: junior year we won the UH Triple A football championship.
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: And I will tell you everybody in town knew uh.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: And we all read the mine who was his uh,
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: who was the star quarterback, who was a junior who's
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: in my class? And everybody knew uh. The star running
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: back and the wide receiver. Everybody knew their name.
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: He didn't have to advertise.
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: He didn't have to. He didn't have to, but I
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: recognized him because you know they were in the back.
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: Then everybody read the newspaper. So you know, Saturday morning,
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: everybody's reading all the articles that the Gazettes got put
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: out and they're talking about the statistics, and they got
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: their names in there. So everybody stay wide because of
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: the coverage, was automatically getting their brand, their brand being developed.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: Now now, okay, so I guess I'm saying this like,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: if we're talking about developing that brand. If to your point,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: if I have these million or so followers online, part
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: of probably me getting that in addition to if I
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: have seen any sort of special talents, I'm funny, whatever.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: If I'm posting my highlights, right so, if I'm posting
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: my highlights from whatever sport of activity that I'm involved with,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: part of that may be enticing to a brand to
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: want to work with me based on that. But yet
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I can't say that I could say, hey, I'm a quarterback.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I can't say that I'm the quarterback here. And to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: your point earlier, now, when you're talking online, it's national,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: so they may not know you in association. You know
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: far as what particularly you're.
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: Doing, I do, and I think you know. For example,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: if the student athlete wants to post on their own
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: social media highlights from the game, if they get it,
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: they're allowed to have it, then by all means they
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: should be able to post it. I don't think that
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: affects the nil and the reason is is because nobody's
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: paying for that that's on their own social media. But
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: the minute they get paid for a promotion, that's where
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: I think the restriction comes into place. Remember, student athletes
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: are posting that all the time so that they can
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: get college scholarships. Yeah, they're trying to you know, develop
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: their their athletic prowess and advertise that, but that's not
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: to a specific person that's paying for it.
• 36:40
  Speaker 7: Well, this is probably why it's so important for the
• 36:44
  Speaker 7: players that are good are going to be the ones
• 36:46
  Speaker 7: that are going to get the name recognition from the
• 36:48
  Speaker 7: folks that West Virginia Matron is.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: HD media house getting it.
• 36:52
  Speaker 7: They're getting the recognition, so their name's getting put out
• 36:55
  Speaker 7: there just because the media is doing what it naturally
• 36:57
  Speaker 7: does and picks it up, and their name is up
• 37:00
  Speaker 7: every week because you know, they're doing whatever on the
• 37:02
  Speaker 7: field or what have you there, right, yeah.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: And hopefully winning the national Aeronautical something. Yeah, is picking
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: it up.
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: Yeah, there you go.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: And so I have in my mind I was thinking
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: as Hollis was talking, and I was thinking about Robert Alexander,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: who you know, we all know has passed away, and
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: he was kind of the guy who got me into
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: you know, the workouts and all that kind of stuff
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: and really had a huge impact on my career. His
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: his name and likeness and everything at that time was
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: not just it wasn't just local, it was literally nationally
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: you know him. And again I'll go to Kurt Warner,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: who you're talking about two guys who were the best
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: back in the nation. So now none of their football
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: stats really matter, but what their attention, what attention they
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: are getting the most, because that's why you that's okay,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: yeah if the okay, but okay, so you could have
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the stats, but maybe if you're not getting these, so
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: let's just say Robert and k and Kurt. I think
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: I think Robert got more attention than Kurt regardless of
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: who was the best, because he went to West Virginia
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: and all of that kind of conversation. Kurt got the
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: negativity for going to Penn State. But to that point,
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: their talent. While it got them a scholarship, it doesn't
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: necessarily mean that they're popular to the people or they're
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: publicly positive publicly negative. Does that make sense?
• 38:55
  Speaker 6: Like them have social media back then. That's why I'm
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: completely different.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But I that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: to put that in in today. So let's say Roberts
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: had some negativity about him, Kurt had positive for himself.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Regardless of who you thought was the best, Kurt is
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: likely going to be the get the most attention. I
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: guess what I'm saying is this, Like, for example, if
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: I have an amazing game, and in that game, I
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: have an amazing play, I have one of them plays
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: that's on the top ten of the Friday Night Lights. Right,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I mean I have an absolute play. Right, I cannot
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: use that play even though if I post it on
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: my social media, that play may get millions of hits
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: on mine, it can get millions hits on the WCHS,
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Metro News, he can get hits all over the platform,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: he can go viral. I can't use that play in
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: order to capitalize on the nil deal. Like, so, I
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: think that if you the way it is written, and
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: it's so far separate that I think it's going to
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: make it hard for somebody who does not have the
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: personality to brand themselves in a way that's going to
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: capture millions of people online. You see what I'm saying.
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: Well, what.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: The attorney is.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: Looking at here, what I'm thinking is no, I'm thinking,
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: you know what, you need to call my office tomorrow.
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: We need we need to find money for you from
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: Friday night.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: So that that's the other part of it. So that's
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: the other part of it. So now if these other
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: news outlets post this amazing highlights and they're monetizing their
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: sites off of and I could direct the hey this
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: got ten million using you may x amount of money.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: I need a cut of that now. But the way
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: the policy is written, I can't get a cut of that.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So it's like I can't use my athletic prowess to
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: get money. It's only about if I'm goofy online. Does
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: that make sense?
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: Well, we talked about this and we were waiting to
• 41:02
  Speaker 6: come on Paul and Carl and Hollis was on his way.
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: But anyway, we were talking about like, now that we
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: have this in place and they're able to be paid
• 41:11
  Speaker 6: for their brand. Like let's say you know what he
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: was saying, HD Media or you know RSN Sports wants
• 41:18
  Speaker 6: to interview this star athlete.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: It is a we.
• 41:22
  Speaker 6: The athlete can appropriately ask for compensation, correct, I mean
• 41:26
  Speaker 6: they can say for a fee. I can be they
• 41:30
  Speaker 6: don't have to, but they can right.
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: Right now, That's that's an area that's a gray area. Okay,
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: theoretically they can. But if you recall, like coach will
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: be able to test to this you know what, and
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: part of those contracts they were required to speak to
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: the media and ws SAC can say, you know what.
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: To be able to participate, you need to speak with them.
• 41:49
  Speaker 6: But they haven't done that yet. You haven't done that yet,
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: so that could be something that could happen, right theoretically,
• 41:55
  Speaker 6: I just like.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: I said, I like the policy because it is a
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: true ni L because you're not actually getting just money
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: handed to you. But I think the policy is is
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: a little flawed in that I should be able to
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: use my highlights, I should be able to use my
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: status as you know, chess player, quarterback, roboties club, whatever,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: in order to get those in IL deals as well.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: So I think that's just I agree with that. I
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: agree with that because at the end of the day,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: what how I'm thinking I want to as an athlete,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking how I need to market myself. I'm thinking
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: I'm marketing myself as an as an athlete because it
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: prevents you from being doing goofy stuff online, preventing that,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. I'm just saying, if you're
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: not that tight, that's because some key to are you know, serious,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: and they're not with the goofy stuff online. They're strictly
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: online to say, hey, this this is the rest I got.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: This is I'm this sort of athlete, I'm this sort
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: of family kid. So now those kids may not be
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: able to get those same opportunities and looks. There's one.
• 43:05
  Speaker 7: Think of Michael Jordan, for example, that is the Nike
• 43:08
  Speaker 7: Air Jordan brand. He never ever wore anything that actually
• 43:12
  Speaker 7: was NBA branded Chicago Bulls. In all those commercials, it
• 43:16
  Speaker 7: was just Jordan and the Nike Air Jordan's stuff. And
• 43:20
  Speaker 7: I think that's kind of.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of what you're trying to we we we
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: don't bring his air in this.
• 43:28
  Speaker 7: Conversations level, but on that professional level, even on that
• 43:36
  Speaker 7: high level, I mean, you're still separating that out between
• 43:40
  Speaker 7: the player versus the league.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: So let me I'm going to ask the from from
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: the comments you heard me, do you think there's gonna
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: be as we flushed this out in years to come?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Do you think there's gonna be room for those sort
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: of adjustments and to rethink it.
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: I think there's I think this is great starting point.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: I think the S S, S, S A C should
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: be applauded for and taken the step. I do think
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: it's going to take a number of years to finally
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: flush out and figure out after the dust settles, what
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: the final rules are going to look like. I think
• 44:09
  Speaker 4: it's I think this is a starting point. This is
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: not the end. But you know, back if I could
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: circle back, everybody was talking about the difference between you know,
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: the athletic and then the branding. I think it's separate,
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: but I also think it goes hand in hand. And
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: I'll let me give you a good example. Everybody at
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: this table, and I bet everybody that would listen to
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: this show, and most people nationally prior to social media,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: there was a guy that played football at W his
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: name was Major Hairs. He developed a brand nationally without
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: ever once using social media. He developed it with his
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: superior athletic abilities and you know his ability to try
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: to win the game. And that just goes to show
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: you can brand yourself using social media, but you also
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: have the ability to just brand yourself quote unquote on
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: the field.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: But who can we say, and we're talking local, not
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: anybody from anywhere else, who can we say in the
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: past ten years, from high school to college within the
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: state of West Virginia has had that sort of Randy Moss,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Robert Alexander, Major Harrison impact. Who can we say, who
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: can we name ten years?
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: Okay, so he's twelve.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Years years. Because I'm talking about in the middle of
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: the social media area. Who can we say they had
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: that national level impact? Because we could probably name some
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: some some guys who had it just off their social
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: media stuff. But I'm talking pure, pure ball that had
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: a national impact. Hollis Lewis No, I mean, I don't.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think in the last ten years.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I don't think college, high school.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: Who if I could intern Jack, I mean, it may
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: not be a name that everybody here would recognize but
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: there was a Marshall goalie on the national championship team
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: Paola and he ended up getting some great contracts.
• 46:13
  Speaker 6: Okay, that's what That's a perfect example what you were saying.
• 46:16
  Speaker 6: People typically go to football and basketball. They don't go
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: to those Yeah, those other sports.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: And and to my flaw, I was going to add
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: you to it, but I'll just keep it on my own.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: To my flaw, like like those types of sports, like
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't necessarily know that names, you know, because that
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: wouldn't be somewhere where I would think to look. And
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: when you start to open that window, I mean there's
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: there could be you know, there could be a golfer
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: there could you know, there could be a volleyball player.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, there could be a ton out there that
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: have that quote star power along with the game. That
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: could be that could easily fall into this window. And
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I and I guess what I'm saying is like I
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: think it's my point is just that I think it's
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: more difficult to have that same star payer power now
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: than it is in yesteryear. And I think it's even
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: more difficult when we're saying you can't basically mention your athleticism. Well,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it. I actually think it's
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: easier because I think it's not. I think I think
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: it is because you can't one. You can't name one.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: But I'm I'm everybody. Everybody knew Randy Moss, everybody knew
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Major Harris, whether you was a fan or not. You
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: can't name one because it's more crowded.
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: Depend on their success too in the sport and and
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: their teams success because Major Harris he took the team
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: to the national championship that year. Correct, so that one year.
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: But but yeah, it I think it. I'm like Carl,
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: I'm kind of team Carl here. I think that I
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: would think it would be easy.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: It's not because you can't name one. We can name
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Lexis Hornbuckle renamed Montgomery. That's outside of the ten year window.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: We can name a bunch of people, but we can
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: within the last ten year could because it's so crowded,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: you can't. Really there's not a one that just jumps
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: off the page that nationally.
• 48:18
  Speaker 7: Everybody everybody's highlights her on YouTube. Now social media has
• 48:24
  Speaker 7: equalized it.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm gonna say, okay, to your point about everybody
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: being on YouTube, or somewhere. We can sit in the
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: room and we may not know, but there may be
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: some folks out there that know people who I ain't
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: talking about them I'm talking about in this room.
• 48:50
  Speaker 6: No, I just have one more thing, and I just
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: want Paul's opinion. We've talked all about, you know, these
• 48:58
  Speaker 6: different aspects of this and I policy, and so when
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: I read through it, there was one piece that said
• 49:05
  Speaker 6: compensation for giving private lessons is permissible if approved by
• 49:10
  Speaker 6: the W E, S, S a C. Now do you
• 49:13
  Speaker 6: feel like that's and this is personal and this isn't
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: your your law degree speaking. Don't you think that's kind
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: of outside the lines of ni L When you think
• 49:21
  Speaker 6: about giving private lessons and who would be the one
• 49:24
  Speaker 6: who would decide? Would they have a special committee? Like
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: you U said, I'm going to give this kid lessons
• 49:29
  Speaker 6: and football? Why are going to go in front of
• 49:31
  Speaker 6: the committee and make sure it's okay? I mean, what's
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: your opinion of that?
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: Pomp personal opinion?
• 49:36
  Speaker 6: You're personal, not law, not law, your Paul.
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: Okay, So so my personal opinion is, first of all,
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: the teacher is the only one that came in with
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: notes and keeps asking.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Me these pop questions.
• 49:45
  Speaker 9: You know.
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: There because teacher, you should have given me my reading
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: before I ride. This is a personal thing.
• 49:58
  Speaker 6: This isn't anything. This is actually part of it. I
• 50:02
  Speaker 6: mean I read the policy and this was this was
• 50:04
  Speaker 6: a piece of it. And I'm like, this is kind
• 50:06
  Speaker 6: of out of the lines. I mean, do we really
• 50:08
  Speaker 6: need that. I mean, I think I understand what they're
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: trying to do, but that kind of goes above and beyond.
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: I think it goes above and beyond. Yes, I don't
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: think it's a part of nil. And by the way,
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: I also fundamentally, this is me speaking. They need not
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: review the contracts. I have no problem if they want
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: to review the contracts as long as they post every
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: person wvss AC salary.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I want to.
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: I want to know what every one of them makes.
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: But if they want to know what my client makes,
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: I got no problem because it's for his brand, not
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: for athletics. It's not for his activities. So I got
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: no problem. But then let's just post it on their website.
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: Every salary needs to be posted.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I like that. I would like this is you're right
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: my alley, Okay, I would like to have like, let's
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: talk about this publicly. Let's let's sit down and have
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: this discussion of why you came to this. I don't
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: care who voted for it and who didn't, But tell
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: me the conversation in which you had to make you
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: think this is good or this is bad. That's my
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: problem is, like I'm not sure that they're always right
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: on some of the policies that they create. As an athlete,
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: you know that has played the game. I don't know
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: who's really all on that board. I don't know if
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: you've got a ton of athletes, you got one, you
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: got none. I have no idea who's there, So I can't.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: So it's hard for me to say when you make
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: a judgment on something that you made the right one
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: or the wrong one because I don't know, Like I
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: don't know who you I don't know where you're I
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: don't know where your background is, I don't know where
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: you got Like this takes to me, This takes some
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: really thought provoking kind of of talk to to get
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: to it, Like you as an attorney, like you're looking
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: at this in a way they did they use your
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: thought process to get to where they are. I don't
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: think so. I think it's I don't either. I think
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: it's like, no, I just don't agree with that. I
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: just don't like it.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: Well, if you recall, before we came on the air,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: I talked about one thing that I propose they should
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: do that they didn't do, which is I think they
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: should have had financial training planning for the student athletes
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: prior to being eligible for a contract, which would be good. Now,
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: who can say there's anything wrong with that? I mean
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: that's ed. First of all, education as a whole. I
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: got teacher next to me. It's always promoted. There's nothing
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: wrong with learning more. But to educate these student athletes.
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: You know, let's say you do have even if it's
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: not a super stud Let's say you have a student
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: athlete that gets twenty five thousand dollars. Okay, what's here
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: or is she going to do with it? First, thing's
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: got to pay taxes. She's got to pay taxes. Well,
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: what do you do with the balance? Well, I'm not sure.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Well they have they have no concept, and I think
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: that's where that training should have been implemented as a
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: part of this policy. That way, they have to take
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: some class. And by the way, it's not I would
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: like to say it's a novel approach, and Paul Sluca
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: came up this idea. It's not that other states have
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: already done that, and so I'd read and I thought
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: it would be great for them to embody it here
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: as well.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: All right, well, well what can they find you at,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Paul if they want to, if they have more questions,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: they want to get consultation.
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, they can call my office anytime. Three zero four
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: seven five five one one zero one.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Give it to them again, justin Gates.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: Three zero four seven five five one one zero one.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: All right, there you go, ladies and gentlemen. So if
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: you're looking for somebody, there's a number. Hollis. I don't know.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: I think we were somewhat close today. We were something
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: much closer to that we were. We were, like I said,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: and again, just to clarify, I think this is a
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: great idea. I'm glad West Virginia took the step, but
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: I think there are some things going to have to
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: be cleaned up in the future, because we want to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: make sure in my mind that n I L is
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: about your performance on the field and not just you
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: trying to be goofy or do something dangerous online to
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: get attention right. That is that is that is scary
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: because somebody is going to somebody if it's not my
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: performance on the field, it's who I am off the field.
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: That's a that's a that's a that's a risky thing.
• 54:34
  Speaker 6: I think it's a great policy. I agree with Hollis
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: and and you know, I think it's going to have
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: to be tweaked. You know, there's going to be growing
• 54:40
  Speaker 6: pains with this. You're going to have issues come up
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: that people are going to question parts of it and
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: test it even but you know, in the long run,
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: we had to do it. It's just a pure and
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: simple it had to be done well.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: I mean it was, it was, It was I was
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: actually hoping that we didn't get here, but but we don't.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: There was really no choice. Yeah, I mean at this point,
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: would you say, we're forty forty four, so deadline we
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: waits around. It's too so Kentucky, Ohio, and I think Virginia, Maryland.
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: Kentucky was the last and around took at Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: All of them were doing yeah we Yeah, you had
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: no choice. You were losing your chance to lose kids there. Yeah,
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: so all right, ladies and gentlemen. We appreciate you being
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: with us today and we will be back again next week.
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: Let's Talk with Carl Lee as presented by Attorney Frank
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  Speaker 3: Walker and the all new historic Choyr Diner. Come in
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  Speaker 3: wing your favorite podcast service and tune in Thursday evenings
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• 55:53
  Speaker 3: with Carl Lee.