Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 78 - Dena House - CPO Adverum

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Episode 78 - Dena House - CPO Adverum · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:05
  Welcome back to another episode of the Bio Hub.
• 0:08
  Today I'm joined by Dina House, Chief People Officer at Adverum
• 0:13
  Biotechnologies. Dina's career has spanned some
• 0:15
  of the world's leading life science companies, including
• 0:19
  Nikon, Precision, Myriad Genetics.
• 0:22
  But what actually stands out most is her passion for building
• 0:25
  strong, intentional culture in complex organisations.
• 0:29
  At Verum, she was brought in with a clear mission, build the
• 0:33
  kind of people first culture that can power innovation,
• 0:36
  resilience and long term growth, even in one of the biotech's
• 0:40
  toughest markets. Today we talk about how she
• 0:43
  tackled that challenge, what great culture actually looks
• 0:47
  like in biotech, and why this work matters so much more than
• 0:51
  ever. So let's get into it.
• 0:53
  First of all, welcome, Dana. Thank you.
• 0:56
  Thank you for having me. It's absolute pleasure, it
• 0:59
  really is. First of all, let's just start
• 1:02
  by you giving us a bit of context on your journey and what
• 1:06
  brought you to Ed Varum. Sure.
• 1:10
  Yeah. I mean, so a lot of times with
• 1:12
  the many of the companies that I started with and joined, it was
• 1:16
  typically be to partner with those companies when they were
• 1:19
  going through some sort of pivotal change and trying to
• 1:23
  help them align whatever was evolving for them with their
• 1:28
  people and with their culture and with the engagement with
• 1:31
  their their people. And, you know, really focusing
• 1:36
  initiatives and processes that would help their teams and their
• 1:43
  culture and, you know, the organization be more, you know,
• 1:51
  efficient and, and be able to kind of progress with wherever
• 1:56
  it was that the company was trying to go in their change
• 2:00
  that they were in. And so Veron was no different.
• 2:04
  They were going through a lot of change.
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  They were going through changes in terms of the direction of the
• 2:09
  company. They were going through some
• 2:11
  changes in terms of their leadership and they were going
• 2:14
  through change in terms of their mission and, and the employees
• 2:18
  engagement and, and what the employees were experiencing and
• 2:20
  feeling as well. And so that's when I was called
• 2:25
  in to help and say, is there a way that I can help bridge, help
• 2:28
  the company as they were changing to the new life cycle
• 2:31
  in the new direction that they were going and help with the
• 2:34
  engagement of the employees and with the culture, you know, to
• 2:37
  bring it all together. And so that was what I was
• 2:40
  brought in to do. And, and it was a, it just was
• 2:42
  a, a great experience and a just a perfect opportunity to kind of
• 2:49
  bring all those years of experience into this, this
• 2:52
  really endearing company. Yeah, I love that.
• 2:55
  And I think it was really important that we brought a
• 2:58
  guest on like you because I think culture is important now
• 3:04
  more than ever. Like we're in a market people
• 3:09
  are talking more about like work life balance and all those kind
• 3:12
  of things. So that this is obviously what
• 3:14
  you've been specifically brought into into Adverum to do when you
• 3:21
  first joined what, what did that actually look like?
• 3:25
  Yeah. So when I first joined, I
• 3:28
  actually have a slide. I won't put the slide up, but I,
• 3:30
  when I go to conferences to talk about what it was like when I
• 3:33
  first joined Adverum, they had just completed their employee
• 3:38
  engagement survey. And when I put the results up on
• 3:42
  a slide, I always tell the audience like, no, you're not
• 3:45
  seeing things. The ENPS, the employee Net
• 3:48
  Promoter score, which asks the question of would you recommend
• 3:52
  this company to others? And it's a, it correlates
• 3:56
  directly to your turnover rates and, and your ability to hire
• 4:00
  and attract people to your company.
• 4:02
  The Net Promoter score was -43 when I joined the company and
• 4:07
  the bench, what you want it to be is at around 30%.
• 4:11
  That's kind of your bench in the life sciences.
• 4:13
  And so I always tell people like, no, you're not kidding.
• 4:16
  It was a -43 and with that, our turnover was greater than 70% at
• 4:21
  that time. I mean, we, it was like a
• 4:22
  revolving door. You couldn't get people in fast
• 4:24
  enough because people were leaving just as fast.
• 4:27
  And it was taking over 100 day. A wreck could be open for over
• 4:31
  100 days, if not longer because people who wants to come join a
• 4:34
  company like that? So it was a challenge.
• 4:36
  I mean, it did have, you know, it was like, OK, this is going
• 4:39
  to be, yeah, quite the turn around there is, you know, how,
• 4:43
  how invested is everybody going to be in money?
• 4:45
  Everybody's going to have to be on board to to make this change
• 4:47
  and, and want to make this change in this culture.
• 4:49
  So, yeah, so that that's that's where it was when I had
• 4:54
  originally joined the company. Yeah, when when you talk about
• 4:58
  those changes, what, what were the biggest things you felt
• 5:01
  needed change and and then how did you go about making those
• 5:04
  changes? Yes, that that's an interesting
• 5:08
  question because I actually approached it from a little bit
• 5:11
  of a different place because there's probably like a
• 5:15
  gazillion different places that you could change.
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  And probably in my head I was thinking let's do this and that.
• 5:19
  And I approach it not from what to change, but how to approach
• 5:25
  changing. And what I thought was more
• 5:28
  important and what I felt was more important.
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  And what we needed to do there was to engage folks in the
• 5:35
  change. And so it's more important what
• 5:38
  the employees wanted to change and what the executive team
• 5:42
  wanted to change and align, align those together.
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  And, and, and, you know, it wasn't my, it wasn't going to be
• 5:49
  my culture. It wasn't going to be my change.
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  It wasn't going to be, you know, what I wanted.
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  It was going to be, these are the folks that have been here.
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  These are the folks that have lived through whatever was
• 5:58
  happening to create this -43 EMPS score.
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  And it's like what, what is, what's, what's at the core of
• 6:05
  that. And So what was more important
• 6:07
  was to facilitate that burning platform that it's time for
• 6:12
  change. Let's we can do it and, and it's
• 6:15
  possible. And let's create the culture
• 6:18
  together that you all want. It doesn't matter what I want.
• 6:21
  It's what do you all want? What's going to make this a
• 6:23
  place that's going to make you all want to stay, make you all
• 6:26
  productive, make you all feel the mission again of the
• 6:29
  company. And so that that was the
• 6:30
  approach. And then then we came up with
• 6:34
  what, you know, what was our loaf hanging fruit, What was the
• 6:36
  long term things that we would put in place.
• 6:40
  But yeah, so it was more like came in to put a process and a
• 6:43
  burning platform and to facilitate the energy to get
• 6:47
  people involved in, in, you know, what is what we're going
• 6:51
  to do. Yeah.
• 6:53
  I don't think people will realize like that's a pretty
• 6:56
  monumental task, you know, to have a company that's kind of
• 7:01
  being let loose and then bring it all back in and go actually
• 7:05
  what is our culture? And then try and get everyone
• 7:07
  within that business to resonate.
• 7:09
  And that that's so hard. You you just said, you know,
• 7:13
  talking about the low hanging fruit, What, what were some of
• 7:16
  those early wins? Some of the early wins were, you
• 7:21
  know, as simple as like, you know, having transparent
• 7:25
  conversations and, and all hands meetings where we talked about
• 7:32
  things that were important for employees, you know, and, and
• 7:35
  just updates to businesses. So it was, it's just very, very
• 7:38
  simple thing, simple as, you know, having clear goals for
• 7:42
  everybody, just stopping and making sure we all had clear
• 7:45
  goals and clarity around what, what value we're bringing in
• 7:50
  the, the roles that we we have. And so it was.
• 7:54
  It was really getting people to communicate and talk to each
• 7:57
  other and and anchoring down. Here's my purpose.
• 8:00
  Here's what I'm doing. Here's why I'm here.
• 8:03
  Yeah, I I suppose that's part of the battle, right?
• 8:06
  Just getting people to understand.
• 8:08
  And also as a new face in the business, there is always going
• 8:11
  to be that element of going, you know what, what, what does she
• 8:14
  know? You know, that kind.
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  And and then some people are just, you know, it's a fairly
• 8:20
  new concept culture. How do we change those
• 8:22
  behaviours? Actually just getting people to
• 8:24
  understand them. It's like, I get it.
• 8:27
  Like it's hard. Yeah, and I think for a lot of
• 8:30
  folks it was just even just listening like there was a
• 8:33
  survey done. Survey gives you great data, but
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  it was also just having focus groups, having one on ones, just
• 8:41
  having open sessions and letting people talk and share what was
• 8:45
  important to them. That that was a low hanging
• 8:47
  fruit. That was just, you know, just
• 8:49
  decompress and and have an opportunity to dialogue with
• 8:52
  each other and share what was on your mind, what was bothering
• 8:55
  you, what you recommended. Yeah, that helped with the
• 8:58
  culture and with all of that. Exactly what you're saying.
• 9:01
  It's just people need to feel like they're part of it and
• 9:04
  involved in it. It's not happening to them.
• 9:06
  Was that easy, you know, just getting people to actually open
• 9:10
  up about this kind of stuff, or did it take a little bit of
• 9:13
  time, few conversations? Yeah, yeah.
• 9:16
  I mean, definitely because you know here that you're like a new
• 9:20
  person. Can I trust that this is going
• 9:23
  to be a safe place, You know, because a lot of times these
• 9:27
  types of cultures with the negative and Enps is there's
• 9:31
  some level of trust that's lost in the organization.
• 9:34
  So, yeah, you have to kind of make it a safe space going back
• 9:39
  and feeding back what you hear and making sure, OK, did I hear
• 9:42
  you correctly? And not putting your own
• 9:44
  judgement and interpretation on it and not naming people out.
• 9:48
  And, you know, just kind of finding those folks who are
• 9:53
  willing to be your champions and being the voice and pull their
• 9:56
  friends in was was really important.
• 9:59
  Just kind of finding the openings and not pushing, like
• 10:02
  not forcing it and not making it a mandate, but just kind of
• 10:07
  opening the door and finding who are the Champions that will kind
• 10:10
  of keep bringing others along with us.
• 10:13
  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's true. They were the strong
• 10:15
  personalities that can actually implement change quicker.
• 10:19
  Yeah, yeah. And we needed to make sure our
• 10:22
  leadership team also supported like they weren't, didn't have a
• 10:26
  preconceived notion of what they wanted and, or how it was going
• 10:31
  to happen, but they also were open to, this is going to be an
• 10:34
  evolution and a process. And that helped too, because
• 10:39
  then it then we were able to speak to and show we're not
• 10:44
  mandating something on everybody.
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  This is all of our culture change.
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  We're all going to be part of it.
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  We're going to hear everybody's opinions.
• 10:52
  Yeah. And what, what does good culture
• 10:55
  actually look like in biotech? That's that's a big question in
• 10:58
  its own right. Yeah, that's a good.
• 11:00
  That's a yeah, exactly. And and you know, probably if
• 11:02
  you talk to different people, they might say different things.
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  And I put it, it all always depends on, you know, the
• 11:08
  company and what you want to develop and, and who you want to
• 11:12
  be and known for. But so, you know, so I can only
• 11:15
  speak to the companies that I've been to and what tends to evolve
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  for us and the places that I've been at that seem to really have
• 11:25
  created these lasting relationships and really good
• 11:34
  return on investment, so to speak.
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  Like you see the productivity, you see the success that
• 11:39
  happens. Collaboration is a big one.
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  The ability to problem solve together, right?
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  You know, being mission driven, being very clear as a company
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  what the mission is and removing roadblocks like you need to, you
• 11:54
  know, being fast, not putting roadblocks where people can't
• 11:57
  get things done, but you need to be able to make decisions fast.
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  You need to be able to, you know, have access to people at
• 12:04
  all levels to get information to make things happen.
• 12:08
  And you need to have a culture that there isn't finger pointing
• 12:11
  in life sciences. You know, there's, there's going
• 12:14
  to be adverse things that happen and if you spend your time
• 12:20
  blaming others or finding fault, you're not going to get to court
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  of what's going on, You're not going to learn.
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  And so the thing that I learned a lot from the scientist that I
• 12:29
  worked with that I just love is that we're here to problem solve
• 12:32
  and learn. And we all have to be hands on
• 12:34
  deck when something like that happens and learn from it and
• 12:37
  problem solve and talk and discuss.
• 12:39
  So that way we don't have that happen again.
• 12:41
  And so that we can be better and continue to develop and, and
• 12:45
  come up with something even better for the next time.
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  Because at the end of the day, it's your patience that matter.
• 12:51
  And so and that right back ties to you know being that mission
• 12:55
  driven company, knowing what our mission is, knowing what our
• 12:57
  purpose is. Yeah, everyone's there for the
• 13:00
  same reason, right? Like everyone joins this
• 13:02
  industry for the patients to make a change.
• 13:08
  Everything else is almost secondary.
• 13:12
  And I sometimes find especially with like these more niche
• 13:16
  markets, like part of the problem is actually getting
• 13:20
  people to understand what, how the patients live and what, what
• 13:24
  issues they have. And then, you know, really
• 13:27
  understanding what what problems they're tackling.
• 13:31
  Because then you really start to get down to the specifics of
• 13:33
  what is that mission and how are we then working as a team.
• 13:36
  Yeah, yeah, because it is. It's not just that whatever it
• 13:42
  is you're trying to cure or work on or help, it is the whole
• 13:46
  being of the patient and that comes into play and how is what
• 13:50
  you're developing and working on helping all of the patient.
• 13:53
  And that matters to the patient. It's to you're to you're
• 13:57
  creating something that is life changing potentially for them
• 13:59
  and probably for their family members too, who are there with
• 14:02
  them as they're going through whatever it is that they're
• 14:05
  going through, whatever it is that you're you're, you're
• 14:08
  helping them with. So absolutely.
• 14:11
  Yeah. And then we're talking about
• 14:14
  what good culture is. But then how do you know when
• 14:17
  you've got that? Like, sometimes from an
• 14:19
  insider's point of view, it's quite hard, right?
• 14:21
  And you're the one mapping it. Like people could be hiding
• 14:23
  things. Yeah.
• 14:27
  Exactly. You know, there's a couple of
• 14:31
  things that when I realized that our culture, like we, we landed
• 14:35
  it and we're always, we're still, it's, it's never perfect
• 14:38
  and it's never done like we always are.
• 14:42
  We're always trying to make it better.
• 14:43
  We're always understanding where, where can we improve it?
• 14:46
  But when I finally realized like, OK, we're there.
• 14:49
  We're like, you know, now we're going to go deeper into our
• 14:52
  culture. Now it's not just the surface
• 14:54
  was when folks would come and say, you know, as new people
• 14:58
  were coming or as people were, you know, because part of our,
• 15:01
  you know, our longer term for the culture, we put
• 15:03
  incompetency. So it's not just the what you
• 15:05
  do, but the how you do and how we work together because that
• 15:08
  that all got to the collaboration, the problem
• 15:10
  solving and all of that. When people would come to me and
• 15:13
  say, Tina, you know, I really like this person.
• 15:17
  I really want to work with them, but they're just not doing it.
• 15:19
  They vary in a way and it's really difficult to work with
• 15:22
  them. And we really need to have them
• 15:24
  work with us and get them on board.
• 15:25
  Then I was like, OK, the culture has really sunk in.
• 15:29
  You know, we want collaboration. We want people that can work
• 15:31
  together. We want to drive forward, not
• 15:34
  have roadblocks pulling us back. And when people start speaking
• 15:38
  that language and pushing forward for that same, not just
• 15:43
  the what, but how we want to work and have those high
• 15:46
  expectations. And then when they're hiring,
• 15:48
  the other thing is when they're hiring, they are looking for
• 15:52
  those folks who can enable each other and not again, you know,
• 15:56
  OK, great. You have 9095% of the technical
• 16:00
  things that I want. You have a has that person has
• 16:02
  100% of the technical and zero of the ability to work with us.
• 16:07
  And you know, not that's not going to you know, they would
• 16:10
  rather have the learner that that they can teach the
• 16:13
  technical piece then the person that they can't work with that's
• 16:16
  going to bring the culture backwards again.
• 16:18
  They don't. That's where when I knew the
• 16:20
  culture shifted and people were driving not just the technology
• 16:25
  but the culture as well. Yeah.
• 16:27
  How hard is it to define that though?
• 16:29
  Like define the kind of person that you hire must be pretty,
• 16:33
  pretty hard task and then actually from paper into seeing
• 16:39
  if that person has that yes or no in a in in an interview
• 16:43
  process. Yeah, I think it went to just
• 16:46
  getting clarity for us around what our values.
• 16:49
  So we part of this process, we revamped our values and the
• 16:54
  values came from from the employees.
• 16:57
  So we redo them together. And then the competencies like
• 17:01
  what is important that that is one of the things that then we
• 17:04
  also developed those together. Like what, what is it important
• 17:07
  and how we work together, the how piece and when we do our
• 17:12
  feedback on for each other and when we do our performance
• 17:16
  feedback at the end of the year and mid year, it's not just the
• 17:20
  OK, did you do your project and your task and your technical
• 17:23
  side? It's like the how.
• 17:24
  And so that when we interview, we know what our how is, we know
• 17:28
  what our competencies are and we develop those together.
• 17:31
  Those are and we we agree these are the important pieces of the
• 17:36
  puzzle. So that's how we know that.
• 17:38
  And so we have specific, specific people in the interview
• 17:41
  panels have questions specifically around the so how
• 17:44
  do you collaborate? Give me examples of, you know,
• 17:47
  how you communicate when something goes off track.
• 17:53
  And so that's how that's that is how we we kind of do that
• 17:57
  culture fit as you say. Yeah, because that's hard.
• 18:00
  Like it is like we personally got that wrong at the start of
• 18:03
  our journey. So like completely get it.
• 18:07
  I want to talk about you like a bit more personally.
• 18:10
  Like why? Why is this work so more so
• 18:12
  important to you? Yeah, it, I, it, it started when
• 18:18
  I was, I think really young. I used to my, my dad owned his
• 18:21
  own business. When he started his own
• 18:23
  business, I was five, he started in our garage and then he was a
• 18:27
  prototype engineer. And so he started the business
• 18:30
  in our garage and then he, we called it the shop.
• 18:33
  He started a machine shop where he, you know, we all helped it
• 18:36
  at his, at the shop, you know, where we're there and watched my
• 18:38
  dad. He was so passionate about the
• 18:40
  work that he did. You could just tell he loved
• 18:42
  what he did and he loved talking about it with us kids and and so
• 18:46
  forth. And when family friends would
• 18:49
  come over and, you know, on a weekend or whatever and you
• 18:53
  know, for dinner or coffee with my parents and stuff, the
• 18:57
  conversations or the what I would hear from others was very
• 19:01
  different about their work. It was very negative.
• 19:03
  It was very unhappy. And I would be like thinking you
• 19:08
  spend most of your day at work and you're so unhappy.
• 19:11
  Like they're just this disconnect there.
• 19:14
  Like, how does that happen? Something, you know, what's at
• 19:16
  the core of that? And then I'd watch my dad and I
• 19:18
  could see how passionate it was almost like an art and a craft
• 19:21
  for him, the work that he did. And that's what I wanted.
• 19:24
  I wanted to live like that. And I'm like, how do you create
• 19:27
  that? You know?
• 19:28
  So I think that's where my passion started.
• 19:30
  And then as I went to school and I majored in psychology and, you
• 19:37
  know, learned about industrial organization psychology, where
• 19:39
  it brings that business part and the people part together.
• 19:42
  And it seemed like the right foundation for me to continue to
• 19:45
  learn. And my curiosity around that,
• 19:47
  It's like, I don't have the answer yet, but that's where my
• 19:49
  curiosity is. And that's where it's like, how
• 19:51
  do we bridge it together? How do we spend all this time at
• 19:54
  work? And what are the levers to help
• 19:58
  bring out the best of ourselves at work?
• 20:01
  And so that's that's how I ended up in this this field in this
• 20:04
  career. So true.
• 20:06
  Spend your your life at work and then if you don't like it, you
• 20:09
  don't do something you're passionate about.
• 20:11
  You know, you're not, you're not smiling every day.
• 20:13
  It's like, what am I doing this for?
• 20:15
  Like, yeah, part of my joy in like, this journey of ethics is
• 20:20
  seeing, you know, how people are living, levelling up personally
• 20:23
  as well as in work. It's amazing.
• 20:26
  Yeah. So I, I completely get that
• 20:28
  journey. I think it's awesome.
• 20:32
  And then we, you know, how, how does this thing coincide with
• 20:34
  the current market? Like it's, it's obviously a
• 20:36
  tough market. Have, have they affected the
• 20:41
  team? Are they thinking about it?
• 20:43
  What's what's happening? Yeah, it is.
• 20:46
  It's tough. It is really hard because you're
• 20:49
  seeing all the companies around you.
• 20:50
  We're worried. Everybody's worried about what?
• 20:52
  What does it mean for our own company?
• 20:55
  You know, because again, everybody wants, they want, you
• 20:58
  want to see your product get to the patient.
• 21:00
  That's the end point. And you don't want to see the
• 21:03
  market be the reason why what you're doing doesn't get to the
• 21:08
  patients because you know that it's going to help their lives,
• 21:10
  you know it's going to help them, their families, etcetera.
• 21:13
  And so it, it makes everybody worried.
• 21:15
  And you've seen, you can see that, you know, at the
• 21:18
  beginning, it's like it's very easy to, and, and I hear about
• 21:22
  it from, from colleagues too. It's very easy to let it detract
• 21:26
  from the work. And it's very easy to even let
• 21:29
  it create conflict within the organization.
• 21:33
  And what we did is we saw it, we saw that it could create that
• 21:36
  and we saw that it was creating. We were almost arguing on the
• 21:39
  same side of the argument, but because the emotions were so
• 21:44
  high, we were arguing. It was like, OK, wait, we're
• 21:47
  arguing on the same side. We're just arguing for the sake
• 21:49
  of arguing because of all the, you know, so we did a stop
• 21:52
  action. We're like, OK, let's, let's
• 21:54
  breathe. Let's figure out how do we get
• 21:55
  through the emotions? There's a lot going on outside
• 21:59
  of these four walls of adverum and how do we not let that
• 22:04
  impact the work that we're doing, but also be free to talk
• 22:07
  about it and be acknowledge it. So it is, it's kind, it is that,
• 22:11
  that balance. It is that we're not just here
• 22:14
  and then life is out there. It's everything's impacting
• 22:17
  everything. So we just, we acknowledged it.
• 22:19
  We take the time to talk about it and we're like, OK, but we're
• 22:22
  just going to keep fighting forward and see what happens.
• 22:24
  You know, we, we can't control, we can't control, but let's
• 22:27
  control what we can't control. And that's, that's kind of how
• 22:29
  we've decided. And it's almost brought us
• 22:30
  closer together. It's, it was pretty amazing.
• 22:32
  It almost tore us apart, but it brought us all closer together
• 22:34
  because we're like, we're just going to take what we can
• 22:36
  control and keep going forward. Yeah, how, how transparent are
• 22:40
  you is like as a business just in terms of how things are going
• 22:44
  with especially in this time like I suppose people are are
• 22:48
  asking for it a lot. Yeah, we, we are pretty
• 22:51
  transparent. We're about where we are, what's
• 22:54
  what's the impact, what we're doing, how we're trying to
• 22:57
  manage it. So, yeah, you mean you can't.
• 23:01
  We're, we're part of what's going on in the world.
• 23:04
  So we can't, we're not going to hide and pretend that we're not.
• 23:06
  And so we, we have those conversations and we try to
• 23:09
  share where we are at, what we're doing, what we're trying
• 23:12
  to do to survive in it. So it's really important.
• 23:18
  That's like everyone else and like I think you compare our
• 23:21
  environment to the to the market and you're in, you're in a good
• 23:24
  place in comparison like yeah. We're hoping, yeah.
• 23:29
  I mean, it's like, you know, it fluctuates all the time.
• 23:31
  It depends on. What day you're like we're we're
• 23:34
  smashing it the next day. Like what?
• 23:36
  What are we going to? Do.
• 23:37
  Yeah, exactly. So it's it just depends.
• 23:40
  Yeah, on what day? Yeah, what time of day?
• 23:44
  Yeah, let's, let's move it on to, to my final question and one
• 23:47
  that we ask every every guest and that's if you could be sat
• 23:51
  next to anyone at a dinner party, dead or alive, who, who
• 23:54
  would it be and why? Yeah, this one, I'm going to try
• 23:59
  not to make it too sad because it is kind of, I'm going to
• 24:02
  bring it full circle because I'm getting more emotional.
• 24:06
  But yeah, my dad again, yeah. So he is alive, but he has
• 24:10
  dementia and so can't really have the conversation.
• 24:13
  But because I started this career watching him and he was
• 24:17
  the one that inspired me. I don't think I ever actually
• 24:19
  told him that, that that's why I went into his career.
• 24:22
  But I would love to be able to now that I've had these years of
• 24:24
  experience and at these different companies, to be able
• 24:27
  to have that dialogue with him. Like what was it that created
• 24:30
  that passion for him? You know, was it maybe it was
• 24:34
  from his childhood and the different appreciation?
• 24:36
  Who knows? You know, and I would love to be
• 24:38
  able to have that dialogue and to continue to learn and, you
• 24:40
  know, ask those questions and and, you know, just kind of talk
• 24:44
  about the concepts. So that's who I would would love
• 24:47
  to have that that dinner conversation with right now.
• 24:50
  That's an incredible answer. I love that.
• 24:52
  Yeah. And I love this whole podcast.
• 24:54
  I think it's super inspiring. Yeah.
• 24:58
  Look, thank you so much for coming on, Dana.
• 25:00
  You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.
• 25:02
  This has been a lot of fun. It's been nice to reflect back
• 25:04
  and and just to kind of go through this.
• 25:07
  I love, love your questions. This was really, really amazing.
• 25:10
  Thank you. Amazing, so good to hear and
• 25:13
  everyone please like and subscribe to the bio hub and and
• 25:16
  thank you so much again. Thanks.