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Talking ESG: Building sustainability reporting capacity · PwC's accounting podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thought leadership from PWC's National Office.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: And time is flying by because you just can't keep up anymore.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: But from a capacity building perspective, I mean that's the word, that's now the buzzword.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone is saying, right, we need to get going.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_04: What what now?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: What do I need to do?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_04: And so how are we building the skills and capabilities in our stakeholders across the world to be able to move and adopt the global baseline at a high standard?
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Today we're back talking ESG, this time with a special guest from the IFRS Foundation.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is PWC's Accounting Podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Heather Horn, and thanks so much for joining us today.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you've been spending time on ESG issues, you've likely learned that when it comes to sustainability reporting, companies are highly interdependent on others in their value chains.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: The need for infrastructure around corporate reporting, referred to as capacity in emerging and developing economies, has been recognized by the ISSB as foundational to their quest to establish a global baseline for sustainability-related financial disclosures.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: We last covered this topic in May 2023, so we thought it was time to circle back.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: For today's podcast, I'm happy to welcome Marty McBrian at the IFRS Foundation.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Marty has a ton of passion and expertise on capacity building and sustainability more broadly.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you'll walk away from the conversation with a fresh perspective on its importance.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: With that, here's my conversation with Marty.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Marty, welcome back to the podcast.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: So nice to have you on.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: And it was hard to believe to me that it's been almost a year since we've talked about capacity building and all the efforts that the IFRS Foundation are undertaking to um spread the word.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'll use as a starting point on sustainability.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: And given everything that's happened in the past year, uh it felt like a good time to revisit this topic and to see what's top of mind for you.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then we'll get into a lot of different conversations, in particular talking about what individual people should do.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: But before we do that, I thought where we could start is for those of you that had not heard the past episode or who have been hearing this term capacity building, but really wondering what does that all mean?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: What does that all mean?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Heather.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: The reason it feels like just yesterday we spoke is because so much has happened.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_04: We've all been so busy, haven't we, over the last eight, twelve, ten months?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_04: And and and time is flying by because you just can't keep up anymore.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: There's so much going on.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_04: But but from a capacity building perspective, I mean, across that 12 months of of fun, I mean, that's the word, that's now the the buzzword.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone is saying, right, we need to get going.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: These are serious, you know, these standards are being, you know, considered and put into regulation around the world.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_04: What what now?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: What do I need to do?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: And so how are we building the skills and capabilities in our stakeholders across the world to be able to move and adopt the global baseline at a high standard?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_04: So we've really been um, I guess not sleeping, but it's probably a really good A to say because it there is, although we've had 20 years of voluntary reporting and there's a really good, solid start out there, people really don't start to invest the resources and the time until you can start to feel the teeth coming and the pressure coming.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_04: And now it's coming really, really fast.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: And so everyone's how do I upskill myself now?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: And how do I get started?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so we have questions coming in on what's scope one, two, and three in greenhouse gas accounting.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_04: What's climate risk?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: How does that look like?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: What does that play out?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: Right through the current and anticipated effects and connections with financial statements, you know, the questions are really broad, and that just shows the different levels of sophistication we have across the world.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: But rest assured, you know, I can go to a conference here in London and read the same questions that I get here from a colleague that's just in Kenya this week.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_04: And they're the same.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we're all starting, you know, it might not feel like it, but we're all starting and leaving that station at the same point.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: So we need to really work with the stakeholders to to get everyone up to speed to be able to leave that station at the same time.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Won't probably get to the destination at the same time.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: That's a bit harder, but just leave together and get started on the standards.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and it's interesting you say that.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was actually um talking to one of my PwC partners, Alan McGill.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: I had him on the podcast a few weeks ago.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we were talking about the fact that even for companies that have been doing voluntary reporting and otherwise, some of these topics, biodiversity, even climate, there's not the expertise even within those companies to understand the potential impact and what it means, circular economy, some of the social issues, otherwise, maybe governance, a lot of companies have their heads around, but not some of these other topics.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you think some sort of more micro, individual companies all the way to regions and countries, there is a lot of work that needs to be done.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: And and that skills piece, if you like, is the bit that keeps me up at night.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's how do we and I and I I'm sort of partly I'm saying this jokingly, and then it you realize very seriously, it's a serious question straight away.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: It's how do we upscale the 150,000 chartered accountants across Africa that are going to be essential to the transition?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: And and don't worry, Heather, we've made a start on that.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you'd be pleased to know you'd be pleased to know we um have been working with the UK Government, Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office and the Pan-African Federation of Accountants.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: And we've just put together, secured a grant for the next six months to work out and scope exactly what we need to do to upskill those 150,000 chartered accountants in Africa that are going to be essential and then put together a five-year work program that we'll then take out to the you know the wider world to look for how we can get support, whether that be in kind from other bodies that have done things like this, whether that be financial contributions, mobilizing development banks, how do we get it crowdsourcing around that?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_04: And what can we learn from that?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: And what can we use more broadly across the world as well?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: So good one on the skills.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: You know, how do you, you know, you you put it out there, but you could say that for any profession that you need to mobilize in any country or region of the world.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: How do we?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it applies, you know, you to you in America and me here in the UK or Australia, my home country.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_04: How do we do that with the governance, like you mentioned?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: How do we do that with the profession, you know, the accounting profession who are probably mostly listening to this today?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: It cuts across so many different parts of a business from insurance, internal patrols, you know, all of this needs to change.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: This is a full company, full organization sport when it comes to thinking about sustainability issues is business as usual.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: And up, you know, all these various different professions that we talk about, you know, there's there is a lot of things.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think to that point, Marty, one thing that's interesting is again, you mentioned a lot of our audience is accountants, auditors, preparers, investors, sort of from that, I'll say, world.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: But sustainability reporting requires also deep subject matter expertise.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so they, for example, someone who does understand how do you redesign a business process to be more biodiversity friendly, they might not then realize how that translates into reporting.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's almost a gulf between you need the reporting people to move towards the sustainability people and otherwise.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes the challenge even feels bigger for sustainability experts to understand where reporting fits in.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: And also I completely agree with you.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's almost like we need speed dating inside companies for the people working on sustainability and the people working in finance sometimes.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe that should be we should do have that necessarily.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: There you go.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: You and I just set that up.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: Speed dating, speed dating for companies.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: But but you know, more seriously talking, it's really you know, it's been very hard for some of these sustainability people that have been working on these often in the you know, the downstairs dark back cupboard, comparing data sets, compiling a CDP response or the like or a GRI report for the last 20 years, and now all of a sudden everyone's putting a spotlight on them and saying, hey, what have you got?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_04: What do you know?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: Or and or you know, and they don't know how to talk the language of risk and return.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: They they not not what they were taught, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: So we've got to take everyone with us on this journey and listen to everyone because I think everyone has a part to play in this transition and a skill that that we can use for this transition.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just a matter of, again, joining the dots or speed dating internally to find those, and then you know, working what else you need to bring into the business or what other training you need.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so to that exact point, then, you know, we've alluded to this, but you have, you know, we see in the EU, you have CSRG and the ESRSs that companies are very busily working towards because it's already uh in effect for the first group of um filers or reporting companies.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then you have in the US, we saw the SEC issue its rule just a few weeks ago.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, that's going to wend its way through the court process, but nonetheless, it's an important data point.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then you see the ISSB, which is really, I think, I can speak to say trying to bring this all together and trying to bring us all to the same place.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And we see a lot of countries around the world adopting ISSB, looking at ISSB.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: So coming from the ISSB, what do you see your role then in this sort of essential capacity building?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Put aside the standard setting for a moment, and just how do you bring everyone along so that when we actually have this reporting, it's the right investor grade information and it's the information that all you know the stakeholders are looking for.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: Do you know it is a big task, but it's one that the trustees and the board have set all of us as staff to go away and everyone's committed to it is how do we support and build capability in the next few years to support high-quality adoption of S1 and S2 globally.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: So that's emerging and developing economies as well.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: No one gets left behind.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_04: And it is a big challenge.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: And so the first step is to make everyone, if you like, conversational, to get everyone having a conversational understanding of what the standards are and what they mean.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so they can think about what how to go away and start to apply them.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: And uh for us, we did that through the capacity boarding program that we mentioned to you last May that we started.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: So we kicked it off with all our partners, which was fantastic.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: We've now got over 40 partners.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and these are really ones we're thinking about how partners that can help us take one to many more people.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_04: So we don't really work with a company or we work with people that can go and help us take the message to many more people and many more people after that, so we can scale it because we're tiny as the IFRS Foundation, and we're in a standard setup, we're not really used to doing this on a large scale.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we do provide the expertise and we do understand the standards.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_04: So, what can we do with what we've got to be able to you know get that out to as many people in as many different parts of the world, doing as many professions as we can, as fast as we can.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so we're really just ramping out like that.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: And so when I mentioned, you know, the the PAF for example earlier, how do we work with as many as we can in the region to do it?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: We're working very closely with organizations like IOSCO.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: How do we work with their the securities regulators to upscale and upscale them?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_04: So we run really deep internal programs of them, and then they can build out from them with organizations like the World Bank to help them put it into regulation as they take the next steps.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: We've been working with the UN Sustainable Stock Exchange Initiative on training preparers through exchanges.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: So exchange host us, we show up with you know four hours of content and you know talk people through it and answer all the questions, and there are hundreds of questions.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: And that's great because you can also tailor it to be jurisdictional specific and and it's good.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_04: But the change of scene from when we did this for TCFD to what we're doing this for for now for ISSB is we we saw we in terms of numbers.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: So for example, I'll take my my home country, Australia.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: When we did Australia two years ago on TCFD three years ago, we had 450 people that showed up for for roughly three hours.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: We did it a few weeks ago.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_04: We had 1,700 people that stayed for the whole time.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: Now that gives you a difference as it starts to move to mandatory, as as the sort of feelers start to turn and the teeth start to bite, just the level of interest in understanding what's going on.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a really great way for access, you know, the right people, right?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Issuers through their market and write its source.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_04: And then the stock exchange and us have a list of where all the concerns are and questions are that they can also go away and address locally, particularly the more granular, you know, local-centric ones that that matter against kind of local regulation and policy.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: And we can also then go away and think about what other tools or resources we need to develop to address those.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: And in some cases, we'll do that ourselves.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: But in some cases, Heather, I'm going to call you and PWs and say, hey, have you guys got anything I can like start showcasing to help you know raise the floor?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_04: And yourself and others have been really helpful in giving us those those resources, which allowed us to launch the knowledge hub at COP last year.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_04: So we've launched the ISSB Knowledge Hub, everybody.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: Get your pan out.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's ifrs.org slash knowledge hub.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_04: Really simple.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's already 150 curated resources on there directly there to support you with the standards.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure there's going to be more soon.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_04: So, and and we do welcome more resources.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: So, listeners, if you're building your own out there, please do send them in because we're, you know, this is about crowdsourcing and bringing everyone with us.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: So you please join the effort.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: But equally, go there, have a look and see what you can find.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Now, um, right now, as I said, it's just a resource.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: We've got a few webinars, but we'll be building it out this year.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_04: And hopefully, my fingers are crossed by a Q3.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: We will also have e-learning on there.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_04: So there'll be freely available modules for you to go on and do.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_04: And then if you want to be an expert, you can go and pay for FSA credential and move that way.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: But really, free resources to get you started now.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's most important.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: Heather is making stuff available to everyone now.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so interesting because when I hear you talk about it and when I, you know, spoke to you and Jingdong back in May, it's almost seems so obvious that this is a critical piece of future success sustainability.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yet you're the only ones really focused on this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: So, what's driving it and and how did you guys know this is where you needed to devote time and effort?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: Well, like we do everything at the foundation, Heather, it's market led.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: So when the trustees very first went out to consult the market to say, should we do sustainability or we just stay accounting standards?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: The market said, you know, do sustainability, but you're gonna need to help the market as well.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: We then heard that again through every consultation we've run since through the ISSB.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so it's it's a no-brainer.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: We know we're gonna have to help.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and and some of those resources, particularly around interoperability, I mean, we're we're well placed to write those, right?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_04: From the beginning, others can do what they want afterwards, but we're very well placed, particularly with GRI in Europe and and those sorts of initiatives where it's really important we get the interoperability piece right as well.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_04: And and the mapping with TCFD is another really good resource that we have available on the knowledge hub because that's another one we get asked all the time.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_04: How does this align with TCFD?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: What does it do?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: How similar is it?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's all on the two listeners.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: So go and have a look at that.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but as well as just get started guides, like how to get started, put you know, not quite put pen to paper, but where to start thinking, what to start doing, some of that really granular stuff that does just help you think about what you need to do.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: So if we go back to the example you started to give of training in Africa and all those chartered accountants, just to give a little more visibility so people understand really the scope and scale of what needs to be done.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can you just dig a little deeper and give that example?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_04: So if we think about that environment, and I can bring it back maybe a different one to start with together.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: Perfect.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is we worked with um we've just finished working with IFAC.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: They're about to revise their curriculum for accountants.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so we've built ISSB into that, you know, into their draft that will go out and everyone will comment on listeners.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: You'll probably all do that as well.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_04: But making sure it's built into there from the beginning because that's the template that then cascades out globally that all the other members of IFAC in the professional bodies around the world are inspired by as they do their own qualifications, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do we build it into qualifications from the top?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, you're going to the root instead of going all the way on the end of a branch and trying to hit all those branches and trying to grow into it.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_04: So, how do we do that most effectively?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_04: And so if we go to IFAC, we can work on that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_04: We can one access loads of loads of membership bodies around the world, but we can sort of start to influence the curriculum if you like.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: But when you think about PAFA, we need to influence the curriculum in all of those bodies across Africa.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_04: And many of them are regulators as well, other regulators that bring in our standards as well.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: So really important that we can also upscale and upscale.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that they really understand if they're adopting these standards, what they're adopting, what the expectations are, because you also are going to want consistency of application.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: We do want that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: And we also want them to be able to engage in the standard setting process.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: So and yeah, so we need, you know, that that's part of this really important cycle.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: It isn't just about, you know, do our standards, it's also about making sure that the whole world is engaged in our standard setting process and has a voice and feels they can be heard on issues that matter to them as well.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's a bottom-up and a top-down approach with capacity building.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: So it is supporting the regulators and the sort of more quasi-kind of uh regulatory and uh professional systems that support them, but that's the bottom-up with the preparers as well, because we need to create those enabling conditions so they can sort of meet in the middle and and lock when the time is right.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when if we take a step back and think about financial accounting, there it's incredibly complicated, both IFRS and US gap, thousands of pages probably of guidance.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so for most accountants, they know general, and then some of them may be a little more expert in revenue or leases or otherwise.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what a challenge we have here is the fact that most people don't know the general, and then you really don't know the specifics.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so, how do you decide which of those problems to tackle first?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Or is do you just have to tackle both?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's there's a real, I mean, we set this out very clearly in the standards that it's about sort of scalability and proportionality.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_04: And it's sort of start at the beginning and very much follow those buckets of that we know from TCFD, the governance, start with your governance, get that right, outline the direction of travel, outline the strategy.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: Do what you can and explain what you don't know.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's a really good strategy.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: And don't try and do it all at once.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: I think that is also, you know, if you haven't done anything, don't go from zero to hero, is that the right expression?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: In year one, you know, that that's not required.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: Lay out the roadmap and and also just get started sooner rather than later.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_04: Start before it's mandatory.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: Give yourself some time and some leeway to put the right systems in place, build up the right processes, look at your data, look at the data quality, look at your you know where you might need to get things from in your supply chain, how to work with your suppliers to help them put the structures in place that you might need if it's particularly material to you.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: So I think there's some, you know, really kind of easy ways to get started.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: Don't try and do it all at once.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we don't require everything in year one anyway.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah so don't try and do more than you should in year one and and work it up, build it up from there.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think you raised such a good point though about suppliers and if you think about the value chain.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Again, another distinction from financial reporting, obviously in financial reporting, you are reporting your value chain, but it's your own information about it.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it's how much you paid them, is what you received from them, these different pieces versus in sustainability reporting.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now you are relying on them for information that you may have no visibility into.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: And yet without that information, your reporting is probably not as meaningful.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so again, if I think about education, understanding, some of those suppliers are probably in some cases almost more important to an entity than its own operations.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so how do you think about that?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_04: That is a good question.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not an expert on that.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: But what again I would say is is conversations with the most important parts of your supply chain, where you think it's most material.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Don't try and do, we don't require the whole supply chain.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's a really important part.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: We require you to think about what's most material and the most material parts of your supply chain and report against that bit.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really is working with the suppliers, having those conversations and seeing, you know, what information they have, what processes they have, because they might not even realize in some cases it's their power bills.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think the reason I actually pointed the question to you, because I didn't think you were an expert.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was more so because that's where I think capacity building is also especially critical because if they don't have the right knowledge or expertise in emerging countries or otherwise wherever maybe your supply chain is, you're never going to get to the level and quality of reporting that you want for some major multinational company.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: No, that's exactly right.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's exactly right.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_04: Supply chains are really important.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: And we did actually launch a value chain project or supply chain project with CDP in China last year at COP to start working together just to see what we could do with our standards in a market which do heavily feed into large global supply chains.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_04: So that's a project that's just kicking off now.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: So Heather, next time I'll have more about a reading of what's going on there.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: But that is that you know, that kind of thing is quite exciting because again, along with the alignment we have more broadly with CDP this year, which will be launched as part of their questionnaire in early June, that again will support supply chains that'll go through their supply chain program that underpins the climate disclosure.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, gradually and incrementally this will kind of start to bubble up.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, I think it is going to be a challenge and it will be messy for a few years.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: It is interesting though, because if you again think of a new accounting standard, no company is thinking beyond can my company implement this?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And yet everyone involved in sustainability reporting really needs to have a stake in raising the collective knowledge level.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly right.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: This is, like I said earlier, this is a full organization sport.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: So let me ask you a couple questions.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know that you like go back to some specifics.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you talked about some of your projects.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: I know you released a progress report in November.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think you've talked a lot already about some of what's been accomplished, but anything in particular else you would want to highlight from that?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: No, but I would want to say that, you know, this is we've been really delighted by our partners.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: Everyone's stepped up.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: People have even got and got their own funding to run projects for us to work them out.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: GSG has just done the most amazing roadshow across Latin America and Asia, you know, talking about our standards, working with preparers, working with communities.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, nothing from us.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: We just help them with the slide deck and off they go and they're off doing this.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, these are these are really fantastic partners that really believe in what we're doing.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_04: FC4S, which is the Center for Financial Financial Centers for Sustainability, terrible accuracy.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_04: F4C.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_04: But run out of UDP, UNDP.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely fabulous.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: But they've gone off and they've found some key jurisdictions under UNDP financial centres that really want to work on this in Rwanda and Paraguay and others.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: They've got projects underway, getting started.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: How do we work with the local policy environment?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: How do we work with the preparers bottom-up, top-down in those jurisdictions and the unique role they can play as being a UN agency in that space?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: So it's you know, we've got Brazil in uh got Brazil in uh Germany paired up and doing some interesting work there.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it, you know, people are being inspired by each other as well and going, hey, that's a good idea, or actually I can see where I can have an impact.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: How can we work as a partner with us to achieve achieve that?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's the perfect model, and that's the model you know we want to keep going.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting though, because you've mentioned this now a couple of times that you have close to 40 partners, but there's not individual corporate partners on there.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: And yet we talked about the fact it is very important from a corporate perspective to make sure this capacity building occurs.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, first of all, I guess why no corporate partners?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And then second of all, what can or should they be doing to support this effort given its importance?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_04: So no corporate partners is really because we're looking for organizations that can help scale and go further and leverage others.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um we have corporate champions groups, we have other groups which corporates the alliance that corporates can sign up to and get involved with.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: But from a capacity building perspective, it was always about where do where are the skills gaps, right?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: And and so when we brought partners in, it's been can they help us fill a skills gap that we're hearing or a jurisdictional need we're hearing, or an information resource need like we did as we bought PWC, and how can you help us fill those really important knowledge gaps with good technical resources?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's working out where the gaps are and bringing the right partner in to fill the gap.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: So it is a bit of, again, matchmaking, we're talking a lot about matchmaking together, but it's about matching sort of the skill and the need and the jurisdiction.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's how we sort of select our partners.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's around, you know, can they fulfill those multi-needs?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: And and it might not be that the you know the most active partner today, but as that we sort of grow and grow in understanding, they will come into their own more.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: So, for example, um, Xperial International is in the process of joining us at the moment.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_04: Now, we haven't released our digital taxonomy yet, but we've had the US talk about digital taxonomy, sustainability, Europe's talking about digital taxonomies.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really important that we're there to support the regulators as and when they're ready with the digital first approach on capability building.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_04: So that's a really good example of you know pre-sort of bringing people in as the, so as as the board, which we know they will over the next few months decide the next agenda beyond climate.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_04: You know, as we start to get a sense of what that is, we'll have to start looking ahead to partners we might need in 12 months' time, 18 months' time, as those standards start to come out.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: Who else do we need to help continue to build the global capability for adoption of these standards?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if the listeners have not heard my interview that I did with John Turner, who's the CEO of XPRL, who Marty actually connected me with, uh, I highly encourage it because it you will be convinced that digital taxonomy is the foundation for successful sustainability reporting.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for that.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Marty.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: But let me go back then, because again, if I'm a corporate listening, do I have a role in this?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Or do I just sit back, deal with my own company and hope the rest of this works out?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_04: No, you absolutely don't sit back.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, one, you should engage in the standard setting process, respond to our consultations, get involved.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: We also have uh a transition implementation group.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_04: And that's really helpful because you can send your questions in that you're struggling with and they will answer them publicly and get you, you know, write a response.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: And these are those sort of tricky ones around preparing.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: So do not sit back if you've got tricky questions.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: Send them in to us either via the TIG as it's called, or send them into capacitybuilding at iFS.org because that way at least we know what those questions are, and we in the capacity building team can work out how best to address them through resources online, through a webinar or podcast, sending them to Heather at PWC to do for us.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: We can find the right partner to help with them.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_04: So don't sit back if you've got questions.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: But also, you know, others around you are also doing this at the same time, right?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, not quite ask your friends and family, but there's those around you, and you're all in your own networks.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so everyone is struggling with this at the same time and and trying to see how best it can fit their business.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, talk to others around you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: But my advice is just to get started, whether it's voluntary or looking to mandatory in your market, because we are trying to create a global baseline.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: We know there are lots of regulators looking at the standards at the moment.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and you may want to do business in one of these markets in the future if you're not already.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: And being prepared and being organized is really important.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: And you might be asked through your value chain as well.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: And you might get new investors coming along along the way that go, hang on a second, could you just report against these?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, we've already done it, you know, we're prepared.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, here's the here's the report.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it just does make good sense.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: It just does make good business sense.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_04: And we hear that time and time again by using these standards, you identify opportunities and risks that were there, but but opportunities importantly as well to do things differently and and be more resilient and create long-term value for your for your shareholders.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, my advice is don't wait, just get started now.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think an interesting point in particular for your IFRS sustainability disclosure standards is the fact that you do see, for example, California, which, even though it is only a US state, has rules that have a large element of extraterritoriality, and they're actually expecting 10,000 companies to be subject to mandatory TCFD reporting.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: However, what's so interesting in that law is it explicitly says that that can be satisfied using the IFRS sustainability disclosure standards.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's where this idea of, you know, come in early, start to focus, these standards are intended to be flexible and used other places.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a great example of it to me.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: And again, getting ahead of the game can only help you.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't think we should just think about large listed here.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, people are thinking about them, what's proportionate for an SME, even though they weren't intended for an SME, but we are also seeing jurisdictions that are that are applying this to large private as part of their drafts when they're putting them out.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: It hasn't come in yet, but large private.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, large private as well as as listed outside, yeah, outside the US.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_04: So it it's it's sort of I'd be keeping a good close eye on how this is as playing out.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_04: And we do have our adoption guide, which was um previewed in our conference in in February and will release in May at the EOSCO conference.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: And that lays out what good adoption of the standards looks like.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: So that's also a good document to look at to give you an idea of where the benchmark is, right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Where you need to get to in terms of what you might be required in your jurisdiction to do.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: So take a look at that as well.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, Marty, I probably should have started with this question, but I want to make sure we do hit it explicitly.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Is when you talk about capacity building, you do, I know, have a three-pillar approach.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've hit all of them, but can you just bring it together by by talking through them?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: Sure.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: So we have it we tailor our work by jurisdiction.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: So jurisdictions will have different needs.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um doesn't mean they need different resources, but we need to tailor them.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: And also translation is a really big part of capacity building.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so at the moment, we're looking how to translate the resources on our knowledge hub and you know, bringing all that peace to life because it's it's really, really key for accessibility for everybody.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we also have as part of our strategy um sort of the the one-to-many resources, if you like.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_04: How do we get this out to as many people as possible?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the leveraging through the partners approach, which you know is working so far.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: I hope it will continue to work for us.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_04: And it it we've been blessed with so many fabulous people wanting to help.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_04: And thank you to all of those that have put your hand up and are actively showing up all the time for me.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and the other one is through champions and identifying champions and individuals that we can support and work with.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: And we've sort of taken that one step farther and built out quite a quite a big strategy with the development banks around the world and now working about how we can work with them to leverage them, not just through their own reporting, which is really key for them given the amount of money, but but building that into their lending criteria and in the to their technical assistance.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_04: So their funding that they they give out.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: And a great example is recently with the IFC in Bangladesh, where the IMF were not going to issue a loan unless they had some criteria.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_04: They took on board the ISSB standards with the IFC and the rest is history.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_04: So there's some, you know, we are starting to see a little bit more of that movement.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that's a really important pillar again.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_04: How do we work with those other sort of interoperability pieces in the system to build capability as well?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, your point on translation is very interesting because I think most listeners to this podcast at least understand English at some level or they would not be listening.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, if you think of a global economy and globally the need for sustainability reporting, though it's not all English speaking.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so as you guys think about language and prioritization, how how do you think about that?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: So, in terms of at the moment, it's almost who's volunteering to translate, but but the plan is to do all the key resources.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_04: Our standards are already done.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: So they're already translated.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the most important part.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_04: Now, this how to piece is is sort of uh that we say, as we've got volunteers, as it's incremental, as we can fit it into the translation cycle of the organization.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: But it's we know it's an absolute central building block of the system without it, without having a 101 slide deck in every key language around the world or major UN languages.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you can't.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_04: We're not really doing it, right?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: I can talk about capacity building all the time, but I'm talking to myself, heather, which I do sometimes anyway.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: But but just, you know, in a more uh most be in a dark room talking to myself as opposed to a nice light room talking to myself.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's it's just so important because you know you might understand English, but when you read it in your own language, you really get the nuances of some of these things as well.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it makes a huge difference.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then again, if we take a step back and think of all the players in the system, we talked about corporates, we talked about the actual capacity building partners, but then you also do have the regulators, the other standard setters, even the other entities working on sustainability standards.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you fit all those pieces together as you think about capacity building?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_04: It's again really good.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so I mentioned earlier we've started work with IOSCO and sort of working with them and their memberships, which is one way to start with the regulators, but but it's every piece of the system, like you said, Heather.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_04: So we are we've got an investor advisor investor team and they've got invested groups and we're working with them.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_04: But again, we're trying to expand that to be beyond global north, if you like, and really start to bring in the global south.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_04: So we have everyone's voice at the table, which which is really key.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_04: We currently have a call for applications.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_04: So if this podcast is out before the 20th of April, uh, please do apply to our uh standards reference group.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's called the SRG, and it is a group of 1, I think 40 individuals we're trying to um bring together from across the world to be standard advisors for us on different topics as we go to build out the standards.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: So please do take a look online and send us in an application if you think you know you've got something to add in the standard setting process because we are after all walks of life from all around the world, you know, truly global standards here that require a global audience, right?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: And a global, global approach.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_04: So we're getting all those in at the moment.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um, more broadly, when you start to think about the others then in the system, it's the same approach.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: You have to pick off who's going to be most influential, how we work with them.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, what sort of issues they're coming up with, who is there someone already doing something on that?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: We can leverage more.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: Is there nothing?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, if there's nothing, then we either have to find someone to do it or do something completely different.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: And at the moment, there's a an initiative that was kicked off by um G-Fans and uh the UN, chaired by Mary Shapiro and Salwan of the United Nations, which is a global capacity building coalition, which is looking to bring together loads of financial institution, sort of NGO kind of players from around the world and UN agencies and development banks, to sort of sew together what everyone's doing because capacity building, I think when we launched our program at COP27, 26, 26, 27, 20, 27, 27, but two years ago now, year and a half ago, um, there was no one was really talking about capacity building.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, that's the point of the.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: And now everyone's talking about capacity building.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: So this is one of those initiatives to kind of map out what everyone's doing together and then see where the holes are and sort of signpost to everything.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's that's one of those really good sort of initiatives that that's at the moment that I think will also help us where we have holes.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we find a hole, we can then sort of have a hotline to a whole group of other people to say, Hey, has anyone else got anything on this?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_04: Is anyone else seeing the same problem?
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: And if there isn't any answers to that or any volunteers, then we've got a group to to crowdsource and get it done with.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, this challenge of transition, you know, it's gonna be messy.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_04: But if we work together and build off each other, we can't afford to duplicate.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a really exciting time because there's loads of great brains on this as well.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_04: And there's loads of fabulous ideas, and with the technology we have, we can really innovate to find solutions, to share ways to upskill people at a much you know rapid pace than we've ever done before.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, Marty, that's almost a spot.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: I should just say we should wrap things up.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: But I do have two more questions for you.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, one of them, I my guess is you're going to say we need to defer, and you will talk to me about next time we catch up.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: But are you is there any preview you can give of where the ISSB may be going next in terms of standard setting?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, S1 does cover all sustainability-related risks.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is not just about climate, which is an S2, but nonetheless, I think people are quite excited to get some more topical standards.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: So, any any hints or direction?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_04: I would advise all your listeners to listen to the April board meeting.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's where look at the April board papers when they come out, and then listen to the April board meeting.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's where you're going to get a very clear steer of the direction of travel of the board beyond climate.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Excellent advice there.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: So then, final question for you.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's again, if someone's listening, and let's assume someone in a corporate role who's been tasked with this, that maybe is doing their own upskilling and otherwise, sort of what advice would you give them right now of where to put their head and and how to make you use the word that this is very messy.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for accountants, messy is very uncomfortable.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what advice would you give as someone who is navigating through this messy environment right now?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: I would say, first of all, go back to the beginning, first principles, and then look at what resources are there to solve your problems.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: Don't think about what everyone else is doing or what you've done in the past.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: Think about this as sort of a journey and then bring in the bits that you have from the past if that makes sense, and and really focus on what's most important to you and your business, not what everyone and everyone else is doing, if you like.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_04: Focus in on that and the standards.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then that's why the knowledge hub is there.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_04: It takes you through that.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_04: And then we have, you know, there's more guidance coming in the future.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_04: There's going to be a webinar series which starts to which really deep dives on these tricky ones.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_04: You know, sign up to our newsletters and get the podcasts and these these resources into your inbox as they come available.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: You're just going to be a step ahead of ahead of all of this, which is going to help you, particularly if you're already in the game and you don't quite know what's coming next.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: I'd also say, you know, we have other things like the FSA Credential.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you've done bits of development before but haven't, you know, really invested in yourself or in something, we do have the FSA Credential.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: And FSA.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, sorry, sorry, Heather, I should never use these acronyms.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_04: The fundamentals of sustainability accounting qualification that we have.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_04: And level one's available, level two will be out, I think, updated soon.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I would suggest, you know, getting that one under your belt, and then that will take you from the sort of resources I give to you on the knowledge hub, which make you conversational or I like to say dangerous, to make you a bit more of an expert, if you like.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's definitely helpful.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And for our listeners' benefit, I would like to share that as Marty was talking about what to do next, she was motioning as though you were going down a road.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's very important because I do think if you sort of look at a road ahead, and I love the idea of looking forward and not just trying to retrofit what I've done in the past.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's incredibly valuable advice.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: And obviously, Marty, the work you guys are doing is important for the future of this sustainability reporting.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't even imagine where we're all going to be five years from now.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm sure we will be talking many times between now and then, but thank you again so much for joining me today.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having us, Sether.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pleasure.
• 38:15
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  SPEAKER_01: From Thought Leadership at PWC, I'm Heather Horn.
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