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Is it therapy? or is it Cake? · Brilliant Minds?

• Olivia: Hi y'all, future editing Andrea here. ⁓ I just wanted to pause real quick before we get into the self help book section. you are about to hear me mention Brene Brown a lot and Olivia, if you're watching the YouTube video, looking very confused. I am popping in here to say that I did not mean Brene Brown and we'll catch it much later in the episode. But I wanted to make sure that I put a little note in here. Andrea: Hello everybody and welcome to Brilliant Minds, where we are professional therapists, but we always like to give the caveat that we aren't always professional, nor are we medical professionals, like we talked about last week. I'm Andrea, and this is my amazing co host, best friend, business partner. Yeah. And happy Pride Month. We totally forgot to win. Olivia: This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. So true. ⁓ Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Olivia: All the above. ⁓ my gosh, Olivia. Andrea: Like, say that last episode, and it's our that was our first episode in June. But here we are. Happy Pride Month. It's one of my favorites. Olivia: That says that I mean Mel Robbins, not Brene Brown. So deepest apologies. Every time I say Mel Brene Brown, I mean Mel Robbins. So thanks from the future. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Who could like what could go wrong? At least maybe now it feels more genuine because by the time this comes out it'll be like mid June when all the companies have paid lip service to Pride. Andrea: True. This is true. We are deep in everything is rainbow colored and Olivia: I don't you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, like love me a rainbow. Andrea: I know, I know. Yes, we should be celebrating inclusivity all year round. However, it's okay to just like give us a little extra boost in June. Olivia: Yeah, that's fine. I I'll I'll accept it. We'll we'll allow it. Andrea: Anyways, today we are talking about a little bit of an interesting topic that can be taken, I think, in many ways. We're talking about therapy look alike. So, like, think when I think about this, I think about things that act like therapy but aren't. ⁓ yeah, and I think that these can be good. Like I think there can be things that are good, but then I think there are things that ⁓ Olivia: Or maybe feel like therapy. Hmm. Andrea: Olivia and I probably have some hot takes on. Olivia: Maybe not so much like hot takes, but ⁓ strong opinions. You know what I was thinking about? What feels like therapy is when you get your head massaged when you go get your hair cut. Andrea: Ha ha ha ⁓ my gosh. Olivia: Got him. Andrea: ⁓ I can feel that. You know what they like isn't that what a head spa is? Olivia: Okay, there is one close to my house and I've like really wanted to try it. Andrea: Okay, friend bucket list, the head spa. Olivia: Brilliant. Wow. Andrea: Head head spa. Look at that. Right off the bat, not even like ten minutes in. We're not even five minutes. yes. ⁓ here I found a head scratching place where you can go and just book like someone that will scratch your head. Olivia: Not even five minutes in Isn't that I mean Andrea: A little we might be headed into kink a little bit there, but Olivia: I mean at that point just call it a head massage. Like a head scratch? I don't know, that feels weirder. Andrea: That's fair. That's fair. True. True. Head massages are really good ones. We're s starting at at some good good ideas here. Olivia: I have a I have a neighbor that lives like doors down. a couple years ago. ⁓ was like, ⁓ what do you She's like, ⁓ I'm hairstylist. And I was like, ⁓ cool, blah blah blah blah blah And I saw her nail, she had like acrylics and I like, ⁓ like I love the like the colour of your nails. She's like, ⁓ yeah ⁓ She's like, is why I get them And she immediately like reaches to my scalp ⁓ and like like scratches like slash massages it. She's like, ⁓ like it's just like part of the job. Like this is why like get the nails so like I'm able to d like do that. And then she's like sorry, that was like really that was really impulsive. And I was like, so you have ADHD and she was like I do. ⁓ was like, It's okay Andrea: I love that she just was like, Here, let me do without even Olivia: Like lit like just such a fluid and I like, ⁓ you were touching my scalp. Okay. Well, I was just complimenting your nails, but that's alright. It's fine. Just touch me. Whatever. It was so bizarre. ⁓ yeah. Okay, for you. What's a therapy look like? Andrea: That's so funny. The gym. I know that sounds super basic of me, but think the gym is one, especially for me and some of the people in my like life that ⁓ therapy. Like if I'm frustrated and I've texted you this before and you or like texted you, ⁓ I'm frustrated or I'm feeling this way, and you're like, Have you gone to the gym? And and go and I'll text you back and I'll be like, Okay, yeah, I like feel better. Like I know I needed to express that energy or like Olivia: Mm. Andrea: ⁓ get my body moving and get the blood flow in some way. So like that's another one that I think feels like therapy and isn't. Olivia: Mm think ⁓ almost any carbonated drink Andrea: Ugh yes. Olivia: It's a form of therapy. Andrea: I know. My husband drank the last fresca. Olivia: Man, you know, I actually almost popped a fresca and brought it out here, but I was like, I'm not actually gonna drink it while we're talking, like really, so I need to not, because then I'll be messed that it's like not as cold as I want. But yeah, carbonation, man. Just like a drink, just like a special drink, that means to you, is ⁓ microdosing Andrea: Mm-hmm. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that that's that's another good one. I think like there are so many things that we could like list off that are like this that are like I don't know, maybe it's dopamine that we're getting or like an expression of something that we're getting, whether that's like girls night or margarita night or a massage or or the gym, but all these things like give us that kind of same feeling that therapy is intended to do also. Olivia: Yeah, like a sometimes I feel like it's a release of the pressure valve a little bit. Especially if you're like feeling overwhelmed or stressed, it's like it helps just reduce the that feeling a little bit or like center you or ground you. I mean, there's a there's a lot of ways you could a lot of ways you could say it. But generally speaking, when you walk away from therapy, like you should feel better Andrea: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Olivia: Like session session to session. Like, not every single session you're going to feel better afterwards. However, I would say like a vast majority of them, like I you're you're probably going to feel like a little bit lighter or a little bit better or like some level of relief or grounding or like direction, maybe. Maybe direction's a better word. so yeah, I think like the things that we're describing kind of like therapy lookalikes in that way. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like therapy look likes, therapy alternatives can be very helpful in a lot of ways. And I think we need to incorporate them for things like self care or coping or just like should be doing those things anyways, right? Like we should be engaging in those things. However, should we already get into the opposite end of the spectrum of these therapy look likes? ⁓ Olivia: Great. You're like, I'm ready to bash. You're ready you're ready to go in. I mean, absolutely, we we always bounce around, so that's not a problem. When I was telling my spouse tonight at dinner what our topic was, 'cause he asked, I was like, ⁓ we're talking about therapy lookalikes. He was like, Dr. Phil. Andrea: I know, I know. Yes ⁓ my dude. Olivia: It just made me laugh like it was like instant. Andrea: Yeah. Gosh, I didn't even think of that one. Dr. Phil is is one of those for sure. Olivia: That's like very clearly n not therapy. Andrea: Yes, yes, yes. What we're talking about here now is we're talking about the opposite end of what we just talked about, which is things that are framed as I don't know what quote unquote therapeutic, supportive, yeah. when you actually look ⁓ them you're like, that's not okay. Olivia: Let's be Or like supportive or Yeah. Yeah, Doctor Phil. That's a good one, right? I wouldn't I wouldn't have thought about that either. Andrea: ⁓ no, that's such a good one. I mean, I feel like mine was opposite or which is Chat GPT. ⁓ Olivia: ⁓ yeah. Yeah ⁓ my gosh. Stop stop going to AI for life advice. Please. ⁓ my gosh. Andrea: Yeah, and I know Yeah, I know we had a whole episode on AI like in the field and all of that, but like this one is a big one right now is people going to AI and being like, How should I break up with my boyfriend? Or should I break up with my boyfriend? And it's like don't call your therapist. Olivia: It's really the should I break up with my boyfriend? If it's like how should I break up with my boyfriend? It's like okay, whatever. Like, it's probably not like have some creativity in your life, Jan, and like figure out how to put words together to communicate ⁓ can ⁓ to break up with your boyfriend, right? ⁓ the like should I break up with my boyfriend like why are you a like Yeah, I totally think it's worth mentioning again, a hundred percent. Like, yeah, we've talked about AI, but like Andrea: Yeah. Yes. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: AI is not therapy. Andrea: There's there's even people that are like, is this person a narcissist? And like feeding it the most narcissistic parts of a person. And of course Chad GPT is gonna be like, yeah, that's an abusive narcissist. Like are we doing? Olivia: So real. Yeah, this is our other favorite thing to hate on. coaching. ⁓ Andrea: ⁓ tell me tell me more. Tell me more. Olivia: Where do even start? there's people out there, if you don't know generally what I'm talking about, ⁓ will market themselves ⁓ like a life coach. sometimes ⁓ you there's different kinds of co life coaches out there. So there's like an executive function coach or like or is it executive function skills coach ⁓ anyways. Andrea: S executive functioning coach is usually what I say. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. and here have many issues with life coaching. A lot of is because it kind of tries to be therapy, but it's categorically not it's a pr pretty much almost completely unregulated field if field is even the right word, maybe like job, I guess would be a better way to say it. Because there's no like there's no educational requirement. There's no licensing, there's no continuing education, there's no supervision, there's no like there's no accountability at all. Like, ⁓ somebody who's a life coach is just like, ⁓ have a lot of experience and like let me tell you how to make your life better. And then like Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Ethics board. Mm-mm. Olivia: I don't think coaching itself, like maybe it's like more professional coaching or like business coaching or like coaching with sports, right? Like y totally. if it's just like life in general or like executive function coaching, ⁓ where I'm like, ⁓ I ⁓ it makes me cringe when I hear about that or I see people engaging in that because it's like Andrea: Right. Olivia: If you are okay with this level or kind of support, then why aren't you also pursuing therapy? At the very least. At the very least, why can't you be doing both? Andrea: Right. Right. When yeah, I mean that's something I was gonna bring up too is like I think when when life coaches know their boundaries and know that they don't have ethics and know what their limitations are, should like it could be done together very well, I think. And think in particular, like ⁓ executive coaches, for example, work on skills and and should work on skills that are like active day-to-day things that maybe a therapist can't do, which is like support someone in like how to do their laundry or like make sure to build structure or like routine into their days. And ⁓ that in with therapy, I think can be really helpful with like processing the anxiety that comes up with those things and whatever. But an executive functioning coach shouldn't blur the lines of doing the therapist job. Olivia: Okay, but I'm gonna like devil's advocate a little bit here on this, is like, okay, so if you had a client that was also having life coaching and you were seeing that client for therapy, what is it that the life coach would be offering the client that you ⁓ already able to offer? Andrea: See, with life coaches, that's harder to know. Like my thought with that is like life coaches should be working on things, in my opinion, that are like forward-thinking, like day-to-day things that aren't like processing. So it's more of like, I don't know, setting up healthy habits, figuring out like what works for you skills-wise, like maybe like how to use a planner and like implementing that into your day-to-day. versus like we get deeper into the weeds, it's still not great. And I would want to like talk about that. But I think an executive functioning coach is different in that where it's like an executive functioning coach is more of like a like an aid, like a like a care aid basically, where they can come into your home and almost like I know executive functioning coaches do things like organizing and helping like create systems in the house. That is different and like is more of a clear line. But life coaches on the other hand, there's just so and so many life coaches out there give therapeutic and mental health advice and that's not okay. Olivia: Yeah, I just I feel like the line's so blurry because it's like if you're an executive function coach and you're going into somebody's home and you're like helping them organize and stand up or whatever, like to me, then market yourself as a like cleaner organizer that specializes with neurodivergence. Andrea: Mm, mm. Yeah. Olivia: Like don't say you're an executive function coach. Right? Or like a life coach. The the line's even blurrier there. If they're in therapy and they're getting life coaching, to me it's like either life coach needs to be like an informal mentor or like a mentor or a friend. Andrea: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: But like, we shouldn't be paying for life coaching if the It's just the line is so blurry. And I just I've never I've never seen it very well navigated doing both concurrently. And so I just like my my perspective is just really biased against like pretty much all coaching. That I just think it's kind of like not scammy, but just like it's a therapy lookalike, but it's like ⁓ Andrea: It is. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: A way worser version of it. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think we've also we've also seen situations where there are huge issues with the way that coaches present themselves or the way that coaches interact with clients and things like that. I have seen things work well, like clients moving to life coaches after therapy to kind of help them move forward and stay motivated, but there's like a very clear delineation and I have worked with an organization in Washington helps support neurodivergent people with of all executive functioning things like applying for jobs, learning how to drive, like transitioning out of school into home. And that they work in conjunction therapists super, super well. And they call themselves coaches, but it's just like it's It's such a weird line 'cause they're they don't have a license and they don't necessarily have training. They're just told su to support in these things. Olivia: Yeah, it's almost like, ⁓ 'cause I know this is very common in like substance use world is like having peer support. Like substance use like peer support, people that are also sober, like continuing to work on sobriety, ⁓ they are like a peer, right? Now I think peer can be really informal. And I that's lovely, but I there Andrea: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: Peer support has also gotten more formal, I think, too, over the last probably like five ish years, terms of like the and structure around what it means to be a peer support person and all that. ⁓ Andrea: I think there's a license in Washington for peer what is it, like peer counselor or something license? I don't remember. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm yeah, I'm not quite sure off the top. So it's like coaching or like executive function coaching or like neurodivergent coaching, like that seems very be very similar to the equivalent of a like a substance use peer support person. Andrea: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Olivia: But then let's call it that. Andrea: Yeah, it's i it there's definitely a lot of weirdness around the jargon about it too. But then like I said earlier, we've seen instances in which like coaches kind of get a big head, especi life coaches mostly, get like a big head and start to do things that like veer into the ethics of being a therapist and it's like, ooh, you're really like be careful with that. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I think it I think it's just so it's so easy to get in over your head. Andrea: and Yes. Yes. And I'm curious to hear from you, because this has happened to me. Have you ever supervised anyone that was previously a life coach? Olivia: in that role. No Andrea: Hm. What are your thoughts? Like what would you think? Olivia: I think it would I think it'd be I think there'd be two things. One, I'd be like, well, in some case like in some I could see how that would be a natural progression of like, ⁓ I'm like supporting people, I care about people, I want what's best for them, but like I really feel like I'm confined by my role or like I feel like Mm I'm not as experienced or like educated on things as I want to be. So in one regard I'm like It feels like maybe a natural progression and I think that would be cool. I think the piece that would concern me the most is like if your boundaries were wacky and you were doing things that you like really shouldn't have been doing as a life coach, that making a transition into being a therapist might be a struggle because you had wacky boundaries initially. Andrea: Yep. Yeah. And that Olivia: So like I could see it work, but I could also I could also be a really wary at the same time. Andrea: Yeah. And I think that's exactly what happens in these instances. It is it's not one or the other. Sometimes it's a mix of both. I can see where it's like, ⁓ you recognized, like you said, that you were kind of going like there's areas that you could go beyond what you were limited to. And I have met people who were previous life coaches who were like, I realized that it I wanted to do this. I wanted to be a therapist. I didn't want to really be a life coach. Olivia: Oof. Andrea: I just thought it was the easier way to do it. And that like gave me a little bit of ick, but it was more of like accessibility reasons not knowing what the world was like. And then I move into it and they end up being really wonderful, amazing therapists. And then there's the other side where it's like, like don't have great boundaries. That's why you're doing like it's just it's kind of messy. And And then there's like a third camp of this that comes to my mind when we talk about coaches. And I don't know if you and I have ever talked about this, but there is there is therapists that then get life coach certified and like take the courses to be life coaches. And I think there are particular reasons around that. Some of that is because you can practice cross lines, like state lines, because if you have a therapist license, you can't see clients in states that you don't have a license as a life coach you can. And that is icky and weird to me, but I also can hear the argument a little bit about accessibility. And then there's another piece that is very like close to my life, which is pilots bit jobs where you can't see a mental health therapist or that feels really scary. And so sometimes having someone that is a coach ⁓ Olivia: Mm. Andrea: That you're just paying like takes that scariness a little bit. And there are individuals who are therapists that market as coaches to that population so that they can access care. And that one is hard for me to argue against a little bit because I know the difficulty of that population. but like idea of it and the verbiage around it feels look-alikey and not great. Olivia: Yeah. Okay, so I'll I'll address the part that I like. is I I agree with you. I think the only time where I feel like life coaching generally, like broad stroke life coaching make sense or ⁓ would feel more comfortable with it ⁓ within communities or settings where people don't don't agree therapy or think that's too much or that it would like affect their job, right? Like ⁓ Like I think about like Arizona. It's like a lot of people are old. They're probably not gonna like want to go to therapy, but like would they maybe be more likely to go to like a life coach? So it's like, is that better or worse than them not getting any kind of support? And generally I would say, like, ⁓ feel like that's ⁓ it go wrong really fast, but like it's better. ⁓ The that I don't like is like if therapists Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: are like b also becoming a life coach so they can like have life coaching clients or like life coaching specific clients even like in other states. boundary on that feels ⁓ like I mean honestly for myself, like there's no possible way that I could establish a boundary for myself where I would feel like I was a life coach and I would feel like I was a therapist. There's no way I could do that. There's no way I could do that. Andrea: It's very blurry. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: So it's very hard for me to believe that somebody could navigate that effectively. Andrea: Yeah, I don't know. I haven't spoken to anyone that does both. Like I know I know some who have gone and done that, but I've never like talked to them about it. So it'd be really interesting to kind of hear their experience and kind of just like, you know, I'm curious. Like I wanna know, yeah, I wanna know your reasoning. I wanna know your arguments on that. Cause from our perspective, it feels wrong. Olivia: Pick it apart. Andrea: Or it feels maybe not maybe not wrong, but like it feels just really blurry and mi yeah. Olivia: I th I think how I would put it is like generally operate with this idea of like trying to give people the benefit of the doubt. This is a very challenging situation for me to give somebody the benefit of the doubt. like the nicest way I could say it. ⁓ Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was I think the history of life coaches just like just it just has kind of ⁓ this replacement for therapy that isn't really a great one. and do have so many blurred lines ⁓ they have an ethics code. which like I guess to some is like appealing. Ooh but like Olivia: It's okay, we don't want them in therapy anyways. I'm just kidding. Andrea: But still, I know, I know. It it is it's a strange one. It's a strange one for sure. ⁓ it does kind of lead me to another like therapy look alike that I don't again, this is one that I don't think you and I have talked about necessarily. But my friends know that I have a very strong take on this one. self-help book. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: And in particular, Brene Brown. Olivia: ⁓ you don't like Brene Brown? Whoa, okay. What what do you not like about her? Andrea: She's not a therapist. She does not have an education in therapy or mental health. She is a ex attorney, I think. who has marketed these ideas ⁓ the kind of life coachy things and taken therapy verbiage and turned it into her own and has made a bunch of money off of it. And her advice is shit. Olivia: Okay. Andrea: Go to therapy. Olivia: Dang, that's interesting. I mean d to be fair, I haven't consumed a ton of Brene Brown's stuff. ⁓ my take has always been more that like was a researcher, but she was a researcher or like she did research on not like researchers and like super scientific background and all that, but more just like she did research on more Andrea: Ha ha Olivia: Poor things. Andrea: Yes. Olivia: like human connection, blah blah blah. Andrea: I will say I think she has some good points that she puts out there, I know there is a large population of people that think that she is part of our community. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah no that yeah that's that's totally fair and I think like she's taken advantage of that for sure. Yeah. What's your gripe so what's your gripe with self help books though? Andrea: And yes, exactly, exactly. ⁓ and like I think that there are a bunch of really great self-help books out there. I have read some. I think they're great. However, there are a lot of things that dip like there's a lot of depends for me when it comes to self-help books. Like I s a couple years ago there was like a huge trend and I think it's still kind of up there to read ⁓ your the body keeps the score and to read it on your own. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: ⁓ and I, as a trauma informed therapist, actually think that's very dangerous and very scary for a lot of people. because it it can be very triggering. there's not really any trigger warnings as far as I can remember. I don't actually own it anymore. I got rid it. there are better options like going to therapy that help you better explain it. and then there's other books out there like Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: ⁓ like go well, I don't remember, there's one about being a badass. And I read it and it was just like every second word was like a swear word, and I could not understand the context. It just felt like talking in circles about how to motivate yourself. without deeper understanding around the meaning of those books, or without like awareness that those books may not always apply to you, I just think they're dumb and pointless. Olivia: I mean, maybe it's the circles I run in because you know, I've referenced how I like don't read. ⁓ I I can't think of somebody I know that reads self help books. Andrea: Mm. I do. Olivia: Yeah. I mean I d I don't disagree with you. I think I think it's very easy to create garbage about how to help yourself. So like I I don't disagree. I just I'm like I I don't even like have any like personal experience to be able to relate to that. Andrea: Yeah. When Yeah. I just have such a hard time, I think, as a therapist when people in my life come to me and they're like like a big one for a long time was have you ever read the let them theory? And I'm like, no, you all know my take on Brene Brown number one. And no, I'm a therapist. Like I've read the synopsis, like also this isn't yeah, Mel Robbins too. Maybe ⁓ have I been fucking this up the whole time? Did I actually mean Mel Robbins? Olivia: Isn't the let them thing Mel Robbins though? Yeah. Andrea: I may have just totally fucked that up. Hold on. Olivia: Okay, that that would make me feel a little bit better about my interpretation of Brenner Brown. Andrea: Nope, you were correct. ⁓ my god, I meant Mel Robbins, you guys. Olivia: Okay. Bastion O'Mel Robbins, totally behind that. Absolutely totally behind that. Brene Brown is great. That that's my that's my limited experience consuming Brene Brown, is that like she's great. Andrea: ⁓ man, how can I edit that? my gosh, for the last fifteen minutes. ⁓ I meant I know, right? Okay. Every time I previously said Bernie Brown, I meant Mel Robbins. ⁓ Olivia: That's okay, our podcast isn't that professional. You should you should just bleep yourself when you edit the podcast. Just bleep yourself until this one. Andrea: I totally could. Olivia: And when you bleep yourself, just bleep it with Mel Robbins. Andrea: pop in, no problem. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: ⁓ my god. Yeah, Mel Robbins. Yes. ⁓ yeah, it drives me bananas. Olivia: Yeah. Now you're not alone in that. I've seen a lot of people hate a Mel Robbins and like yeah, it's it's definitely like she's kind of getting her yeah. Andrea: They're they're both blonde women with short hair. And they're both about the same age. Olivia: Yes, but Brene Brown did the like stuper watch TED Talk. Andrea: Yes. Yes. Brene Brown is a researcher. She is someone that is in our field. Yes. Olivia: Okay, now I'm like okay, now I'm not misremembering things, so I was like I I've read one of her books and I've like seen her TED Talks. I'm like not a huge consumer of Brene Brown, but I was like, I feel like Andrea: Yes. Yes. I apologize, Brene Brown, if you happen to ever hear this. ⁓ you are a social work student, you're you are a philosopher, you do have a you do have a graduate degree in social work. I am so sorry. Olivia: We love you. Andrea: I went a hundred percent in my head the whole time it was Mel Robbins. Like the whole time. Olivia: You know, now I'll know to like interject a little bit sooner and be like, do you mean? Andrea: Yes, please. It was like Olivia: You you you delivered it with such confidence that I didn't even think it was Mel Robbins. Andrea: I know. Olivia: ⁓ man, I bet so much if he wants to cut that out. Andrea: ⁓ I'm sweating now. I do, I do, but that would takes no. No. Olivia: There's no way, yeah. Sorry, boo. Andrea: Well, at least I fixed it and figured it out, thank you. Olivia: Yeah, you fixed it. It's okay, we can move on. Yeah, self-help books. Meh. I see memes about this. I don't think I don't think a lot of people actually think this is true, but I still think it's worth saying out loud. I've seen a lot of memes about this. It's like, ⁓ I don't need therapy, I like just need a drink at my best friend. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. How about I don't need therapy, I just need to record a podcast with my best friend. Olivia: Yeah, and to that I would say that's like putting a band-aid on a cannonball wound Like like I see the memes. I don't again I don't actually think people like really believe that. Can it like look like therapy in the sense that it can like release like the pressure valve, right? And like let off steam or like Andrea: Yes. Mm. Mm. Ya. Olivia: ground you or whatever. Like yes, it can, but it is not, let's be very clear, it's not therapy. Your best friend is not therapy. Andrea: No. No. the other thing I think I texted you earlier this week was like drinking water. Olivia: Which you don't do. Andrea: Which I don't do. Not not well. But I it came it came up for me this week 'cause I was talking to someone who's gonna start like a chronic health support group, which I think is really cool for people that struggle with that. and they creating like a chronic like things you hear as a chronic health girly bingo card. And ⁓ a of these things like Drinking w like why don't you just drink water? Or why don't you just like reduce your stress? Why don't you change your lifestyle? Which I recently heard from a doctor. yes and Those not those are not replacements for care, whether that's physical care or like mental health care. Drinking water is not gonna, you know, help you process your trauma. Sorry. ⁓ Olivia: Ha ha ha I wish. I wish it was that easy. Then you'd actually drink your water, wouldn't you? Andrea: Right, right. Yeah. probably would. ⁓ Olivia: Hm. might be like a little niche, but I don't think it's too niche. you what's not therapy? Is pastoral Andrea: Thank you for bringing that one to the table. Tell me more. Cause I I agree. I agree. Olivia: I think this can look like a lot of different things. I think this is I've seen a little bit more ⁓ recently, and I mean like probably within like the last five ten ⁓ ten be but like let's go like five, seven years, ⁓ is they've done lot better of a job branding it. Rebranding it. ⁓ Because what I've in the past ⁓ is a lot like Andrea: No. Olivia: churches or s church staff providing like Christian counseling or like relig like a religious-based counseling they have no they're just they're just like a n they're just a Nancy. Like it's just it's whoever, right? and have like a while ago I haven't any recently but I I've worked with clients that I've heard like some pretty awful things in of like ⁓ what that should be doing or not doing from that counseling. know and so ⁓ I I just to be clear like that is not therapy. ⁓ And what I what I will say is like over the last few years like the five ish years ⁓ Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Olivia: What I've seen is that it's more like pastoral support. Like it's it's dis it's discussed more about like being relational and like about connection and support. But I've actually seen more pastors be very direct and transparent about like I am not a therapist and I cannot be your therapist. Which is Andrea: Mm-hmm. That's great. We love that. Yeah. Olivia: Perfect, thank you. ⁓ but I'm sure it's still out there a lot. I if I had to guess, I don't you know ⁓ generally I don't think there's a lot of people that go to church anymore, like in our generation, right? think that's totally fine. I just I just wanna throw it out there. ⁓ As real as a religious person, I think it's important to put it out there that like ⁓ counseling your church, that is counseling. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, well Yeah. Yeah. And and to put this out there too, there are licensed therapists that do like religious based counseling. And that's different. Olivia: Right. Yeah, that's yeah, that's totally a thing. And it's and it's great, right? Like there's Catholic therapists and Christian therapists and Jewish therapists and like all like all different kinds and that's incredible. So it's like think that there's not a therapist out there that like religiously orients the same way you do. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, yeah. All of them. Yeah. Olivia: But also don't think that the support you're getting through whatever religious like community you're a part of is actually therapy because it it it's not. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's certain religious groups that, you know, will require you to have these one on ones with things and it can be really harmful and it's okay to seek a therapist that still has your religious lens and that's therapy, not whatever that madness is. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, i I've seen kind of like a a slightly d different like variation of this. this is more common I feel like when I was growing up, ⁓ like a little bit more of previous generation, but this like premarital counseling Andrea: Mm. Okay. Yeah. Olivia: You will not be surprised to know I opted out of that. Andrea: God. Olivia: I see what you did there. response was Jesus Christ. and that again, that's like another variation. I'm sure it's still out there, ⁓ but think it's it's ⁓ again, think it's been rebranded and it's marketed a little bit differently. It's not like premarital counseling. It's more just like I don't like ⁓ merit. Andrea: Mm. Premarital meetings. Olivia: Yeah, I think it's more like marriage like pre marriage support or like that something more like that. And I br Andrea: Yeah. Coaching. Olivia: bring it up because I don't really think there at least I haven't seen it, I don't know if you have, like a therapy equivalent to premarital counseling. I'm guessing it exists, but I've never seen it. Andrea: Couples counseling. Olivia: Well Okay, duh. But I mean like specifically within couples counseling, I've never seen that be like a niche. Andrea: Yeah, I mean I Yeah, I mean I think I think that premarital counseling, at least from my understanding, right, is the intention of going in and talking about like preparing for marriage specifically, right? Olivia: Yeah, essentially. Yeah, I mean, I I don't know, the didn't do it, so ⁓ can only answer so many questions. ⁓ basic understanding, at least from what I saw growing up, was like it was either like ⁓ a book together and like discussing it Andrea: Yeah. Mm. Olivia: Or there was more of like a structure framework to it, like almost like a curriculum, even maybe could have been like curriculum E. Andrea: Actually that rings a bell. That rings a bell. Did my parents do that? Olivia: Didn't work. ⁓ Andrea: Mm. It's okay, my mom would be saying the same thing when she hears that. They did do couples counseling when I was a kid, but No, you're good. Olivia: Sorry. So sorry. So sorry. That is what lack of impulse control looks like. Andrea: I loved it. It was great. It was on point. Olivia: Woo, okay, sorry about that. again, ⁓ feel like it was a l like I feel like it's kind of old school. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah, I think so. But definitely another therapy look alike that isn't therapy. It's yes, I think it's it's a I think there's a culture around that. Like I think that a lot of religious groups like encourage that before marriage and things like that. And I that's totally okay, but it's definitely not therapy. Olivia: Definitely not therapy, but again, like I don't really think there's a therapy like equivalent, at least that I've seen. Unless you could find a like religious-based therapist, like couples therapist, maybe they would have something. Yeah. So it's worth mentioning that it's like I've seen it as part of the like counseling piece in religious settings, and I'm like, la, new, new, new. Andrea: No. Mhm. Yeah. I'm cu that's yeah, that's when I don't know. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: mm mm, this that's not thirty. Andrea: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm trying to think are there other ones? I mean the the other one kind of piggybacks off of Chat GPT's TikTok. Olivia: Mm. don't think anyone really thinks that's but I think well, ⁓ I like they're more likely to use TikTok to diagnose themselves. Which like could be a therapy look like in a way. ⁓ But Andrea: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm curious this just popped into my head. I'm curious what your thoughts on if this is a therapy look alike. Because so BetterHelp BetterHelp and Talkspace have a their basic level membership for services is texting. Olivia: Just tell me. You don't need to caveat it. Andrea: And you text a therapist, and that's your like treatment. Like BetterHelp, I think when I looked at it, it was like 90 or like 79 a month just to be able to text a therapist. You never had meetings, you never had virtual calls, no phone calls, nothing. It was just access to texting a therapist. And you would just like I don't know if it was like f f at any time you could text the therapist or if it was like only during certain times. I didn't get that far. But you can like Just text a therapist. And it's supposedly, I have no proof. I I'm guessing it is actual therapists, but I I have no proof of that. I don't know if it's like AI, but like I don't like it. I don't know how what to consider that one, but that's a thing that exists. Olivia: That's wild, I didn't know that was a thing. How if the how do they have liability coverage that covers that? Andrea: ⁓ yeah. That's a question. I don't know. I mean like Olivia: 'Cause I can't imagine being the therapist that would be texting. Andrea: That's why I don't know if it's re like if it's a real therapist. I mean I haven't I haven't seen any videos or heard of any therapist that did it. But yeah. If you're a therapist that did it, let us know. Olivia: Gosh, I hope not. Or is doing it right now. ⁓ Yeah, I mean it c it can't be like all the time. They can't be like on call. Andrea: We're just doing it right now as you listen. ⁓ Olivia: That would be wild. I can never imagine texting any one of my clients. I've never texted any of my clients ever. Andrea: Yeah. Mm. See I do. But not therapeutically. Every once in a while a client will send me something that they're like proud of, but I won't answer it. Like it's just like a way for them to communicate with me when something comes up. Olivia: Yeah, see that's Yeah, but like therapeutically I'm like Andrea: Yeah. But like no way do I engage in it. Olivia: Yeah, I'm also thinking like how would you document that? And I'm then I'm like I guess you wouldn't necessarily need to document it because you're not billing but then that even feels worse. ⁓ god, that's not therapy. Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Olivia: That is weird. Andrea: Yeah. As soon as I 'cause I was like I think I was in a really desperate place looking for a therapist at one point and so I went to BetterHelp because I was like, I can't find anyone. I like need a really low cost option, like 'cause I didn't have insurance. And it was still seventy nine dollars. And I was like, what do I get for seventy nine dollars a month? And it was like, ⁓ you could text this therapist. Okay? No. Olivia: ⁓ Andrea: I'll go read a self help book over that. Olivia: Okay, then then the like ⁓ sassy part of me is like, could you voice memo them? Andrea: I don't think so. Well, maybe now. Olivia: Hey, if the podcast ever makes a lot of money, let's like set up a fake fake better help account. ⁓ find out. It'll like undercover boss. ⁓ Andrea: ⁓ my gosh. I love that stuff. Remember spies. We talked about this last episode. Olivia: Dude Yeah, yeah. I think undercover boss when it came to group practices, like mental health practices, would be so good. Andrea: ⁓ somebody please give me the satisfaction. Take someone down. Olivia: Yeah. Please, yes. Ha ha ha Andrea: Anyways, that's a discussion for another time. any other thoughts that you have on therapy lookalikes, things that people think? Yeah. Olivia: For real. Girl, no, I'm tapped. I'm like I've I've laid out some judgment, you know. I think people probably need a break from the violence I've unleashed. then the like innocent bystander of Brene Brown. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. So sorry. I actually do appreciate you and what you have done out there. Truly. I'm not lying. Olivia: was like it was just too good. I had to circle back. I'm sorry. ⁓ Andrea: But Mel Robins, get off my algorithm. Olivia: That's real. That's real. Mm-hmm. Yeah. tell us ev for real. Tell us in the comments if there's any therapy thing like lookalikes that you can think of. We'd love to know. We'd be super curious. ⁓ Andrea: ⁓ wow. What a roller coaster. Yeah. Yeah. Or if you're a life coach and you want to tell us more about what you do and try to convince us that you're good. Olivia: you wanna fight an uphill battle, feel free, yeah. The world's your oyster. ⁓ Andrea: We're open. love it. Well, thanks again everyone for hopping in for another episode of Organized Chaos. We appreciate you. Please leave comments, like, subscribe, share our episodes. Those always really help, or save them on Instagram. and catch ya in the rabbit trail episode. Olivia: Bye on. Mouai mouai. Andrea: Bye.