Latest / Pretty In Pink Again / Episode 68: VP, Creator, Mom of Three: How Meg Hall Balances It All

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Episode 68: VP, Creator, Mom of Three: How Meg Hall Balances It All · Pretty In Pink Again

• 0:00
  I'm Christina.
• 0:00
  And I'm T.
• 0:01
  And this is the Pretty and Pink Again podcast.
• 0:03
  Where motherhood meets rediscovery.
• 0:16
  For decades now, women have been told they can do it all and have it all.
• 0:20
  The thriving career, the happy family, an active social life, a clean house, healthy meals, present parenting, and somehow time for themselves.
• 0:29
  Well, what happens when reality doesn't quite match those promises?
• 0:32
  This week we are joined by Meg Hall, corporate executive, mother of three, advocate for workplace flexibility, and creator who has now become a powerful voice for working parents.
• 0:42
  Meg has spent years climbing the corporate ladder while simultaneously raising a young family, navigating business travel, leadership responsibilities, and that invisible mental load that so many of us mothers carry every single day.
• 0:53
  Today, we are unpacking what companies still do not understand about working parents, why so many women feel stretched thin, and whether the problem is that women can't do it all, or that we're still expecting them to.
• 1:05
  I feel like the gold standard is to get the children out- Out and then we stay home.
• 1:11
  I hate when I have to hide or I have to leave.
• 1:13
  No.
• 1:13
  I'm like,"No, you get the fuck out.
• 1:14
  This is my house." But my, the, woman on my team works fully remote and she doesn't travel nearly as much as I do, and she has two kids, and her husband used to work from home.
• 1:24
  And every once in a while, I, I'd be like,"Do you have the entire house to yourself?" She was like,"Yes, it's like the ultimate dream." It's the dream.
• 1:30
  It's the ultimate dream.
• 1:31
  I've been te- telling, our nanny, like,"Take them out of the hou- like, do not come back.
• 1:34
  Here's...
• 1:35
  Go get lunch." Like, that quiet that comes over you"Do not come back.
• 1:37
  Like, bring them back when it's time for Layla to nap.
• 1:40
  Like, that's when you come back," because it's like- It's not even just the kids.
• 1:42
  It's husbands busy.
• 1:43
  Yeah, it's everybody.
• 1:44
  I'm like- Like, Chris is c- gonna be home in the summer everyone's in my house.
• 1:46
  I'm like, the kids have camp, or Nella's camp.
• 1:48
  The boys have school.
• 1:48
  But just knowing there's another person here, and like, he, the, uh, you don't register someone as working even though I'm, like, at a desk because I'm in my home.
• 1:55
  They'll just w- walk in.
• 1:56
  I'm like, what if I walked into your office and was like,"Are you thinking chicken or- I know turkey for tacos?" Right.
• 2:00
  I'm like- Are you even-"I'm on the phone with a CEO.
• 2:03
  Like, could you- could we talk about it later?" I know.
• 2:06
  "I just needed to know real quick." I'm like,"You're still talking." Like,"Sorry, Steve, I'll be right back." Like- I know.
• 2:12
  It's so hard.
• 2:13
  It's lit- He's over it.
• 2:14
  I, honestly, I'm so grateful that my husband is a doctor, because during COVID- Well- he wasn't home like, everybody's husband was home during COVID- Yes and they were like- He's gotta school.
• 2:24
  He gotta go and some people were like,"Oh, I'm so grateful I get to be home with my husband during COVID." I'm like,"What is actually wrong with you?" Yeah.
• 2:30
  The best part of COVID was that Nick was gone at least from 9:00 to 3:00.
• 2:34
  Like, if we were all home together every day- No, no that would be miserable.
• 2:38
  That's when I get the most, when it's just, like- Same there is not one second, and you're trying to concentrate, and you're trying to do something creative, and you're like- Yeah"There's so many people in my house, and everyone's talking to me," and like- We were just talking about this last night on m- another- I get triggered I'm on, like, I have, like, three group chats that have 90% overlap in all three.
• 2:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:59
  But there's, like, one differentiator- You're onto something that means that I can't have them all in one.
• 3:03
  Like- Yeah.
• 3:03
  Yeah but I forget which, who I- Yeah.
• 3:05
  So I'll show up somewhere and start telling a story- And they're like,"I know you already told this" and they'll be like,"Yeah, we know.
• 3:08
  You already told us this whole story." And I'm like,"Oh, but not Christina." Yeah.
• 3:12
  That's actually her name.
• 3:12
  But last night I took the kids- Of course it is.
• 3:14
  out at 11, and I was like,"Do you think there's, like, rehab for moms?" And I was like, I'm talking, like- Like- insurance coverage Like go away?
• 3:22
  Yeah.
• 3:22
  Like, I was like- I, I would have already checked it.
• 3:24
  Where your kids are not taken away when you get out.
• 3:26
  That's right.
• 3:27
  I said,"I need- That kind burnout rehab." Yes.
• 3:28
  I said,"What are our thoughts on me showing up to, like, traditional rehab and just being like,'Hey, low-key, I don't have- Put it in- a substance abuse problem.'" Put it in as that, though- But I do need- and I'll just take a break therapy and- a nap for like three weeks, and I'm gonna need insurance to pay for it." I think that's called The Ritz Carlton.
• 3:45
  And then we were going through- Or like the St.
• 3:46
  Regis.
• 3:47
  But they don't take HSA.
• 3:48
  And they probably- Exactly but they don't take therapy.
• 3:49
  It's like AVSO only.
• 3:50
  And we were going through, like we, it started this, like, list of everyone being like,"Well, what if you could do this or that?" Like, all, like my friend of course, out of, like, comes out of nowhere and is like,"I can throw you down the stairs if you want." I was like, we're like, like"Thanks, Jane." I was like, I was thinking something l- with less- Yes ter- long-term implications than being paralyzed.
• 4:06
  Right.
• 4:06
  Right.
• 4:06
  Fender bender.
• 4:06
  Fender bender.
• 4:06
  Like maybe just two weeks or something, but not a recovery.
• 4:09
  Al- and then another mom was like,"Maybe you just need to go to the pool for the day." I'm like, all the pool does is make me sit there and think of more ideas- Yeah of things I could do, should do, or wish I was doing.
• 4:18
  And then today I was like,"Oh my God, I finally figured it out." The, like, dream day for me right now is literally one entire uninterrupted workday in which I do not rush at all.
• 4:30
  I actually would benefit from, like, I'd feel better getting things done, but, I'm not rushing to daycare.
• 4:37
  Somebody else takes care of everything, and I literally, like, calmly go throughout one entire workday, and I get eight hours of time to do just- Imagine that my full-time job.
• 4:47
  Imagine that.
• 4:48
  That is my- That's how I feel.
• 4:49
  I feel like I need, days where it's like, okay, this is a work day.
• 4:53
  This is an organization- 100% slash cleaning day.
• 4:56
  This is a family day.
• 4:57
  The toggling and the ru- the, the, the, like- 100%.
• 5:00
  You can't fit them all in in one, but we, like, have to.
• 5:02
  Right.
• 5:03
  That's been the whole month of May.
• 5:04
  Right.
• 5:05
  It's like you're just toggling.
• 5:06
  I, end one day and I'm like,"Well, I don't know what I did today." Yeah.
• 5:09
  And I'm stressed out.
• 5:10
  Well, I mean, we should just end this conversation right now- I know because we thought you were here to, you were gonna tell us how you've mastered it all.
• 5:16
  Oh, yes.
• 5:16
  But You can.
• 5:18
  You can absolutely master something.
• 5:18
  You can have it all.
• 5:20
  No.
• 5:20
  Have it- As long as you fail at a lot of other things at the same time.
• 5:22
  No, I'm just teasing.
• 5:23
  I'm just teasing.
• 5:24
  Okay, I'm gonna have you intro yourself on this one.
• 5:26
  How do you want me to intro myself?
• 5:28
  You can just say,"Hi, I'm Meg Hall." The one For Channel 3, they're like,"Okay, so we're gonna say, like, Meg Hall, senior executive influencer mom?" I know.
• 5:33
  I'm like- Perfect"I guess?" Yes.
• 5:34
  Perfect.
• 5:35
  Like, we can pick one.
• 5:37
  But that's an interesting question.
• 5:39
  How would you intro yourself?
• 5:40
  Chaotic.
• 5:44
  Oh, I don't know.
• 5:44
  How did you do it on Channel 3 News?
• 5:45
  What did you intro yourself as?
• 5:47
  I don't remember.
• 5:48
  I think we went with- Hi, my name is Meg Hall.
• 5:51
  I'm a full-time senior executive mom of three- Micro-influencer You're not a micro-influencer Highly engaged, old-school- fauxfluencer.
• 6:01
  Oh, I like that one.
• 6:03
  With a 6% engagement rate- Oh which is my street cred.
• 6:05
  You have a great engagement rate.
• 6:06
  How do you- Yeah find out what the engagement rate is?
• 6:08
  Claude.
• 6:09
  How does Claude find out?
• 6:10
  I don't know.
• 6:11
  That's Claude's job.
• 6:11
  You can, like, inside your insights and stuff, you can upload them and- You can upload- Yeah your insights?
• 6:15
  I am, I am working.
• 6:16
  We decided that we're gonna have, like, a hobby night.
• 6:18
  See?
• 6:18
  This is why moms have problems'cause guys would be like,"Let's go to the bar and watch a game." Right, yeah.
• 6:22
  And we're like,"You know what we should do?
• 6:23
  We should construct a series of workshops- We're like,"Get laid." in which one night...
• 6:26
  Exactly.
• 6:27
  We're like,"Let's construct a series- of workshops in which we each bring one unique, identifiable skill that could help other moms." Sign us up.
• 6:34
  So we're gonna do that.
• 6:35
  Okay.
• 6:35
  And I think I'm gonna take- I don't know.
• 6:37
  I think I'm- AI for motherhood.
• 6:38
  I love that.
• 6:39
  I think I'm more like a guy, this sounds like- scary.
• 6:42
  I mean, that's a lens I haven't applied to my life in a long time.
• 6:48
  I probably should.
• 6:48
  This might work out better for me.
• 6:49
  Wait, so ask AI to look up the insights on Cla- Oh, wait.
• 6:52
  I- You gotta connect it all.
• 6:54
  You gotta come to my workshop.
• 6:56
  Look, I just- See, I do it- Where are you hosting your workshop?
• 6:58
  I need to do that because I do it, like, backwards, where I'm like, I screenshot everything, and then I'm kind of like, is there- So you gotta do all the plugins there's, like, there's more efficient ways.
• 7:05
  And then once your whole computer is connected, you literally don't have to do anything.
• 7:08
  It's already read all your emails.
• 7:09
  It's already read your whole calendar.
• 7:10
  Like, you can literally just say, like,"Claude, write a response to J.Crew for me about my upcoming partnership.
• 7:16
  Use whatever day is currently scheduled in my calendar- Mm-hmm and ask if they want me to profile new arrivals- Oh or whatever they reference in their last email." So that's who you're intimate with now, Claude.
• 7:25
  Claude.
• 7:25
  That's right.
• 7:26
  Under- That's where I'm getting laid.
• 7:26
  That, it makes sense.
• 7:27
  Love it.
• 7:27
  Yeah.
• 7:27
  It all makes sense.
• 7:28
  Yeah.
• 7:28
  She knows you.
• 7:31
  She knows.
• 7:31
  She knows me.
• 7:31
  See, I'm still shacking up with Chat, who I heard is a man.
• 7:34
  I don't like Chat as much.
• 7:34
  And I've heard Claude's a woman.
• 7:35
  Yeah.
• 7:36
  So maybe, maybe I need to jump- It's better over there make the leap.
• 7:40
  That makes sense.
• 7:40
  I mean, I use Copilot at work, which sounds like maybe I'm in a throuple.
• 7:44
  I don't know.
• 7:46
  Yeah, no, Anthropic's I think way superior for organizing motherhood.
• 7:51
  But my friend Kate is an interior designer, very talented.
• 7:53
  She just opened a studio in West Harvard Center, and her studio's upstairs.
• 7:58
  Her showroom downstairs is, going to be a store, but, appointment only'cause she's launching a textile line.
• 8:03
  Like, you know, we all are- Mm-hmm multi-hyphenate, as they say.
• 8:06
  Um- Multi-hyphenate.
• 8:07
  And fi- she's like,"I don't know what to do with this space." And we're like,"Let's just, like, come up with parties for w- women to come to." Great.
• 8:14
  We're like,"Great, sounds good." But see, like, this is a problem.
• 8:17
  We're all so inspired by all of the ambitious, hardworking- Mm-hmm smart women that we're surrounded by, so we all then wanna, like, do more and be more productive because it's good for us and we see it around us.
• 8:28
  But then we also all wanna be admitted into the Institute of Living.
• 8:32
  That's right.
• 8:32
  So we have to somehow find a way to live in, I don't know, the middle.
• 8:38
  Yes.
• 8:39
  Right?
• 8:39
  It's so funny because I have twin four-year-old boys- Yeah who are, I don't even think that needs explanation.
• 8:46
  They're twin four-year-old boys.
• 8:47
  Yeah.
• 8:47
  They're everything you think it would be.
• 8:49
  So we're learning a lot about impulse control and brain development- Mm-hmm and the different cortexes.
• 8:55
  Apparently that doesn't happen for a while.
• 8:55
  And the focus is all about getting- Regulated re- regulated- so we have, like, a mood board that's, like, red, yellow, green.
• 9:02
  This is supposed to be for- Mm-hmm the four-year-old twins.
• 9:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:04
  And, you think that the yellow, which is, like, happy, busy, playful, like, adults assume that that's green.
• 9:11
  But that's actually yellow.
• 9:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:13
  Green is, like, full contentment and complacency, and it is the hardest place to be.
• 9:19
  And this, like, area in your brain that is regulated cannot get there if you're not in green.
• 9:24
  And I'm like,"Wait, tell me more." Like, I can't do this.
• 9:27
  I always say this- anytime we've had an expert on that talks about any sort of, like, impulse toddler meltdowns, I'm like,"It sounds like you're talking about me." 100%.
• 9:36
  Because I can't regulate at all, and so I, how could my children regulate?
• 9:41
  We only operate, At full capacity or at full burnout, whereas, like, the magic of life all happens in the in between.
• 9:48
  That's, like, what my...
• 9:49
  I had a mental breakdown last night I don't think I've been in the- And kind of daily at this point, but I would- I don't think I've been in the green since, like, 1999.
• 9:54
  So there's also that.
• 9:57
  You sound more green than She's a little more green, yeah.
• 9:59
  No.
• 9:59
  No, I think I'm actually much more green lately, and I'll tell you my secrets.
• 10:03
  I thought you just did, but.
• 10:04
  I- Okay, never mind.
• 10:11
  No, tell me your secret.
• 10:13
  I don't have high standards for myself anymore, truly, or the people around me.
• 10:17
  And I know that sounds ridiculous, but, like- It's wild unless it's work-related, in my actual life, I have very low standards.
• 10:25
  In my work, when I do w- Would you say standards or expectations?
• 10:28
  I, I think both.
• 10:29
  I I think I expect everybody else around me to do, like, literally nothing.
• 10:33
  Expectations.
• 10:34
  And once I've real- and, like, once I've realized that, I'm like,"I don't know.
• 10:39
  Whatever." I...
• 10:40
  'cause when I would get myself- Yeah, that's a really good point so worked up over and over and over again, that would be, like, that would aid in me, losing it.
• 10:46
  Yeah, I think my problem is what brings me joy is also what drives the inability to be just content.
• 10:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:56
  Like, I am my most fulfilled self when I am, like, functioning on all cylinders.
• 11:02
  Like, yes, I have ADHD, but I'm also a creative.
• 11:04
  I like to feel productive.
• 11:07
  I require a lot of stimulation.
• 11:09
  So if I try to regulate- I haven't found a way yet that, of what that looks like aside from, like, relaxing, which for me doesn't help me because I don't feel fulfilled by doing that.
• 11:23
  So then why do you think you're dysregulated then?
• 11:26
  What, if you're running on all cylinders maybe- Because what I want to do is not feasibly achievable.
• 11:31
  But says who?
• 11:31
  It's like- Or have you tried it and it didn't work?
• 11:32
  'Cause you want it,'cause you want it all.
• 11:34
  Yes.
• 11:34
  I feel like that's the problem.
• 11:36
  And I will not give up the pursuit, even though I know, like, time is finite.
• 11:41
  Like I always say, even my corporate career when talking about talent retention and benefits, like, at the end of the day, people care about two things in the workplace: time and money.
• 11:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:50
  That's it.
• 11:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:50
  You can have beer on tap, you can have ping pong in the basement.
• 11:54
  People care about time and money, and you have to remember that that is the role of someone's work when it comes down to, like, nuts and bolts.
• 12:02
  And I feel like that's really helps me in my personal life too, to remember, like, time is a finite resource.
• 12:08
  I can't expect more of an employee than is feasibly possible in an eight-hour day.
• 12:12
  Like, that's all that's available.
• 12:13
  But for some reason, as mothers and creatives and people that are h- highly energized by being busy, I don't have that same filter for myself.
• 12:24
  Like, I know it's not possible, but I refuse to give in to the fact that you can't actually achieve what I have an ambition to achieve in the physical constraints of a single day ever, or life.
• 12:38
  Do you think what, what works at work translates into what works at home in your personal life?
• 12:42
  Yes and no.
• 12:43
  I think certain elements, like boundaries.
• 12:46
  When people talk about doing it all, like the one thing that is non-negotiable at this point in my life is boundaries.
• 12:53
  I feel myself wanting to stretch those all the time, and I talk myself off the ledge.
• 12:58
  Like, that's half the reason I share on Instagram is not to like...
• 13:01
  I like to say, like, I don't like to tell people what to do.
• 13:03
  I like to show what I do,'cause I don't feel qualified to be telling people what to do.
• 13:07
  But I can tell you what I'm doing- You're sharing if that's helpful.
• 13:09
  Right.
• 13:09
  Um, and that's half the time where I sell, like, hills to die on as a corporate exec at, uh, and people leader with PTO.
• 13:17
  And I'll, like, outline the five things that I, will not negotiate on in terms of being out of office.
• 13:21
  Like, you must fully disconnect, you must take your email off your phone, you must...
• 13:25
  Because that's the only way that it becomes true.
• 13:28
  And the second I let those slip at home, meaning I don't keep some time to protect my sanity, for me, it's getting dressed every day.
• 13:35
  That's a boundary.
• 13:36
  Like, I have to get dressed every day.
• 13:37
  It doesn't matter if we're late, like I, I cannot go into the world in athleisure.
• 13:41
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:43
  I just, like, don't feel like I've started my day.
• 13:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:45
  If I s- slip on that, like, I know that I'm not gonna have a productive day.
• 13:50
  So I feel like there's, like, themes, like boundaries, that definitely overlap, but what works in the workplace is, is I found to be healthiest sometimes when there is an overlap.
• 14:00
  As I've gotten older, being better about disconnecting emotion from work, disconnecting my personal worth from my employer, where I do connect my personal worth to my family and who I am as a human outside of the workplace.
• 14:12
  So I think it's both.
• 14:14
  Wow.
• 14:15
  Geez.
• 14:16
  I feel like when I think of boundaries, I just think I'm being, like, a bitch or, like, I'm being rigid.
• 14:20
  Yeah.
• 14:20
  Or I'm just being, like, I'm not being flexible, and those are all things that I value.
• 14:24
  Like, I value, like, I hate rigidity.
• 14:27
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:27
  I value flexibility, and I'm having a hard time differentiating...
• 14:30
  And I know being boundaried is not the same as those other things.
• 14:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:33
  But in my mind, I feel like I confuse the two.
• 14:37
  Yeah, I think women do in general.
• 14:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 14:38
  Because innately setting boundaries is you saying what you need, and that is foreign concept to women and m- and mothers in particular.
• 14:48
  It's, like, against our biology because we immediately are concerned that by setting that boundary, we're not meeting the need of, of someone else or we're deprioritizing someone else's need or that we're saying no to someone or we're disappointing someone.
• 15:00
  But I think in my career in particular, I've just met certain women that I've been very lucky to become friends with, and that is the one common commonality I see in the super successful women that I've been lucky to become friends with is all of them have unapologetic boundaries.
• 15:17
  Such a good point.
• 15:18
  Can you talk to us,'cause you've had such an expansive career at this point.
• 15:22
  I hate that we even have to say that.
• 15:24
  Meg and I have known each other since freshman year of college- Yes which is insane.
• 15:28
  Oh my gosh.
• 15:28
  So you guys both go to UConn together?
• 15:29
  We did.
• 15:29
  Yeah.
• 15:30
  Yeah.
• 15:30
  Yeah.
• 15:30
  And we s- and so I've known you since I was 18 years old.
• 15:34
  So over 20 years, and- I, like, have goosebumps I do too like, oh, 20 years It's wild.
• 15:38
  Yeah.
• 15:38
  It's crazy.
• 15:39
  It's over 20 years.
• 15:40
  Yeah.
• 15:40
  So- How have you guys known each other that long when you're only, like, 25?
• 15:43
  I know.
• 15:43
  It doesn't make sense.
• 15:44
  It feels like- The math doesn't math that way did you see that meme on Instagram the other...
• 15:47
  It was a meme.
• 15:48
  It was, like, a photo of a woman, and that was 40 in 1973.
• 15:52
  We looked so awesome.
• 15:53
  We looked great.
• 15:54
  Like, one of the group chat- Ta-da couldn't tell you which one.
• 15:56
  Yeah.
• 15:57
  It went in that group chat.
• 15:58
  One that had a Christina on it?
• 15:59
  Oh.
• 15:59
  Like, you guys are gorgeous.
• 16:01
  Like, we look so good.
• 16:04
  I'm like, we are...
• 16:05
  I- that's why we feel foreign- We-'cause I'm like, when my m- love you, Mom but, like, she looks great now, but when she was 40, like, it was very different.
• 16:13
  I mean, thanks, Botox, but also- Yes I've seen memes too where it's like, we already were ugly.
• 16:19
  Yeah.
• 16:19
  Like, we're just getting a hall pass from the universe.
• 16:22
  Yeah, exactly.
• 16:23
  I was so ugly when I was- 10 to 13.
• 16:26
  We had the weird awkward phases.
• 16:27
  My kids- We already did it are not gonna go through a weird awkward phase.
• 16:30
  Yeah.
• 16:30
  My daughters are gonna get weekly wash and blow dries- Yeah if they have curly hair and bangs.
• 16:34
  Like- But they're welcome right.
• 16:35
  Okay?
• 16:36
  Yeah.
• 16:36
  I get it.
• 16:36
  So we're getting a hall pass.
• 16:37
  Good point.
• 16:37
  Yeah.
• 16:38
  Good point.
• 16:38
  We're getting it back.
• 16:39
  So that's what I've seen, and it's, it, it's very true.
• 16:41
  So- but can you talk to us, in that span of two decades, how, what has your career path looked like to where you kind of are, in sort of a nutshell,'cause I'm sure it's- Yeah extensive.
• 16:52
  Yeah.
• 16:52
  I feel like I was so lucky that I always knew what I wanted to do.
• 16:57
  I remember when I went to college, and my friend group was mostly like,"I'm not quite sure what I wanna do," and I, I knew from day one that I wanted to be in advertising.
• 17:05
  I wanted to be in creative, ideally in fashion, but at this time there, at, at this time- in those days, there was such a- Back in the day an ironclad door to get- Right into that world.
• 17:16
  Right.
• 17:16
  You had to know someone- Right or come from somewhere.
• 17:18
  So I went to UConn, majored in marketing, quickly learned that was the market, numbers on, with squares- Right.
• 17:26
  Got it not what I'm good at.
• 17:27
  Right.
• 17:28
  Transitioned to communications, and then, started interning in the PR field, worked in the ad agency space, graduated- Mm-hmm amidst a wonderful market crash.
• 17:37
  2008.
• 17:37
  Um, and- Good times also at the same time had happened to, as our generation is, just have been the first native users of social platforms and was really that first wave in the career space where brands and agencies were realizing that these platforms were transitioning from being hobby platforms that college kids understood to being truly a new wave of- Communication, marketing You were, like, a big tweeter Yeah, I was one of the first 8,000- Yep people on Twitter.
• 18:10
  Yep.
• 18:11
  I could've been@Meg, and instead- Yeah I was, like,@sparkledust529- Yeah.
• 18:14
  'cause I used my AOL- Right screen name.
• 18:16
  Like, what a mess.
• 18:17
  I actually got my entire Twitter account, before I w- put it on private, I got it printed in a book.
• 18:22
  That was smart.
• 18:23
  And it's hilarious.
• 18:24
  Like, I- What kinds of things would you tweet?
• 18:26
  Well, I can tell you.
• 18:26
  I just looked at it.
• 18:28
  I can show you right when Obama got elected.
• 18:30
  I could tell you I was sharing what I was eating for breakfast.
• 18:32
  I was sharing, like, if I was in a bad mood.
• 18:35
  It was...
• 18:36
  Uh, this is a, a slightly different topic, but, uh, it's always been true.
• 18:39
  Like, social has always followed authenticity.
• 18:41
  Like, Facebook started as college kids.
• 18:43
  You had to have a college email.
• 18:44
  Then brands got on the platform.
• 18:46
  It went m- m- more broad.
• 18:47
  Then Twitter launched.
• 18:47
  I remember being accepted- Right Yeah into Facebook.
• 18:50
  Like, when your college got accepted.
• 18:50
  When my college got accepted- Right, right I remember being like,"Yes, we're in." Yeah, yeah.
• 18:54
  Exactly, and then Twitter launched, and that was, like, short-form, real-life- Yeah snippets, and then brands entered the Twitter space.
• 19:00
  It became more of a news engine.
• 19:02
  Instagram.
• 19:02
  Instagram launched.
• 19:03
  Yep.
• 19:03
  Then after Instagram became more stylized, Snapchat launched.
• 19:07
  Yes.
• 19:08
  Right, yep.
• 19:08
  After Snapchat got more controversial, TikTok launched, and now you're starting to see things like Substacks that are gated in more privatized communities.
• 19:15
  So anyway, um, this was really kind of the early dawn of that, and I have really just ended up working o- I'd almost say almost in, like, innovation for most of my, my career.
• 19:25
  I...
• 19:26
  My favorite fun fact is I've never had a job before that existed before I had it So every role I've had has been a role that was either newly created or And you were growing with it.
• 19:34
  It was'cause you were using all of these things so organically- Yes so then you were, like, building on all of these skills, and then the companies that you were working for were utilizing that.
• 19:43
  And then the next thing comes.
• 19:44
  Right.
• 19:44
  And I feel like the one thing I'm just absolutely not scared of at all is change, and I feel like that is something- And, like, trying a new platform a lot of people are scared of.
• 19:51
  And you seem- Yeah you seem to, like, always get on the platform, and you're, like, more comfortable with it- Yes before it kind of takes a turn, and, like, everybody gets on it.
• 20:00
  It's, and, and- Yes then it starts changing.
• 20:02
  So you- I'm just pretty curious.
• 20:04
  Yeah.
• 20:04
  I would say that's, like, I've been doing more reflecting on this lately as I kind of, like, figure out, you know, I, I'm always, like, wondering what I'm gonna do next.
• 20:11
  I never have figured it out until it presents itself.
• 20:13
  But, I feel like that's the one element that is consistent, is that whatever's driven what happens for me next has always come from, like, a point of curiosity.
• 20:20
  Like,"Oh, well, I wonder what that's interesting," or what's g- And that's why my social presence is perhaps a little niche and unfocused, because it really is kind of like a reflection of what I'm actually reading, absorbing, experiencing.
• 20:32
  It's not really focused on a specific area of expertise, but neither is my career.
• 20:38
  Like, I wouldn't be successful at my job without all these elements.
• 20:41
  So I worked in the ad agency world- Mm-hmm and then I was very lucky.
• 20:45
  Actually, my first, like, larger social presence was on Tumblr, which is crazy.
• 20:48
  Oh, yeah, Tumblr, wow.
• 20:49
  Um, and I, I don't even know if I've, like, shared this story.
• 20:53
  Almost every career I've had as well has, like, involved someone in some way that I met on a social platform, which is crazy, to think of how little legitimacy was first given to social.
• 21:01
  But I became really good friends with this, woman on Tumblr, and she worked at a social media agency in the city.
• 21:08
  She'd worked in beauty, and it was this, like, perfect precipice where brands wanted to hire expertise in social at a more senior level, but it just simply didn't exist because the platforms didn't exist long enough for people to have had 10, 15 years experience, or the brands themselves hadn't adapted it long enough that there was anyone that had 10 years of category experience, and that was my unlock for getting into- Fashion and eventually consumer products and where I am now, because my friend who had experience in beauty was working at a, a social agency.
• 21:40
  I had the social experience.
• 21:41
  So even though it was a smaller agency, and I didn't have category experience, I had category, uh, functional experience, so I was hired to lead the fashion team at an agency in New York.
• 21:51
  We kind of call it, like, the days of the Wild West- Yeah in social, where- Yeah um, you know, Kate Spade was in its heyday, and we say it was like- That was the early blogging days.
• 22:00
  Yeah, like the- Yeah relative, it was, like, relatively young people- Yeah being given- Yeah slightly irresponsible levels of money and told to just, like, do cool stuff.
• 22:08
  But the crazy part about it is, like, it was such a testament to creativity, because it worked.
• 22:12
  Like, this is when some of the greatest brands of our generation were- Mm-hmm like, born or created or had their heyday.
• 22:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:17
  And then at the same time, every brand started to realize that, this wasn't going anywhere, so we all got recruited in-house out of the agencies at the same time.
• 22:25
  Right.
• 22:25
  Everyone...
• 22:25
  We were kind of the first class of, in-house social media leads that were kind of replacing a college intern.
• 22:32
  I had had on my bucket list that I always wanted to work on Target and Vineyard Vines, and I worked on the launch of Target in Canada, one of the biggest failed, projects of my career, which was s- fascinating and such an great learning experience.
• 22:47
  And then I ended up going in-house at Vineyard Vines, um, to lead their social and, um, again, got lucky that it was a very social UGC first- Mm-hmm brand, super scrappy.
• 22:56
  We were in a warehouse that if it rained, you couldn't hear anyone talk, with 13 stores when I started.
• 23:00
  Wow.
• 23:00
  We had our first million-dollar day while I was there, and then, when I left, we opened our 75th, and it was a temporary, pop-up at Grand Central Flagship.
• 23:08
  And, had a great experience there building social, and then actually evolving into a role where I was overseeing marketing overall, which made sense there, because it was so digitally led.
• 23:18
  And was leading editorial, creative shoots, all of their content, PR, golf, retail marketing, just kind of, like, got a lot of experience doing a lot of things.
• 23:29
  But it was a really niche audience, and I wanted to continue to grow and really wanted to work for a global brand.
• 23:34
  Had always wanted to work for Lego, but they notoriously only hired in-house, and got a call from a recruiter that, they had a new role, that they, for the first time, were re- realizing and accepting that they needed to evolve to being a more digitally savvy brand, and they specifically wanted someone from external.
• 23:51
  So joined the Lego Group, built their first ever influencer program, everything from the legal contracts.
• 23:59
  Like these are like the early days.
• 24:00
  There were no platforms where you could curate creators.
• 24:03
  Built that muscle, produced their first ever branded YouTube show.
• 24:07
  We were one of the first brands to kind of create our own influencers.
• 24:09
  And, then when I was nine months pregnant, I was literally due in February, in January of that year, I was promoted to their first senior director of digital marketing for the Americas, and continued to build out social as a functional area for the Americas.
• 24:25
  Built out their content production team in this group we called the newsroom, really like starting to hit the ground where brands were starting to realize that like a ad you're putting on TV wasn't gonna serve them on social and really started leaning in heavily into the, the content creation development space for brands and proving that out.
• 24:41
  And then, leading their social teams as well, both for like, you know, bigger brand campaigns and then our more like, product specific efforts.
• 24:48
  And then, had just agreed to, relocate to Boston- Mm-hmm with our family- Okay with Lego, and then a recruiter called with Culligan, and I always respond'cause this is how you meet people, but I said,"No, thanks.
• 24:59
  I'm just, uh, gr- committed to relocating with my family, work for a great brand," and they were like,"Just meet the CMO." The paper still had their old logo on it, and I met this current CMO who was an executive from SharkNinja and kind of built out this plan that essentially at the end of the interview, I was like,"Okay, so you've essentially are tasked with building the Coca-Cola of water", and you're looking at, again, curious, looking at the world around me, like AI, anything you're considering the one finite resource that is unavoidable is clean water and the most critical- Mm-hmm non-negotiable common human need, and you've now kind of amassed the companies behind this effort.
• 25:37
  So I'm basically being asked to be part of a team that's going to create the Coca-Cola of the water world, but you already own the infrastructure and the product, and it's a branding exercise, which is, like, really where I thrive.
• 25:49
  And everyone thought I was insane, which is a common- But you knew, right?
• 25:51
  thread when I make caree- career moves.
• 25:53
  So you knew you were in the right place.
• 25:55
  Yeah, I knew I was making the right move.
• 25:56
  Yeah.
• 25:56
  I was scared out of my mind.
• 25:58
  I was like,"I'm giving up a ni- eight-year career- Mm at a brand where at the last three years I was there, we were three years in a row, two or three years in a row rated the number one most reputable brand in the world.
• 26:10
  Like, the heavy weight on my shoulders.
• 26:12
  We were driving, um, you know, f- global m- media consumption standards for kids.
• 26:19
  Well, and also it's such a name that you don't even- Right, I was- have to give an explanation.
• 26:22
  Yep, I was gonna say.
• 26:23
  You can just say- It's such a wor- such a known name"I work for Lego." Mm-hmm.
• 26:25
  That's it.
• 26:26
  Period, the end.
• 26:26
  Right.
• 26:27
  Now- Yeah when you start your job, right, you have- I have to explain it I have, I have an explanation.
• 26:31
  So that's a whole other thing that you're entering in, right?
• 26:34
  Yeah.
• 26:34
  You're entering an explanation- And to me I was like- and really you have to figure out what is this even.
• 26:37
  You didn't even know the explanation, I'm sure.
• 26:38
  We started with, like, literally nothing, but in my mind I was like,"Oh my God," and the team thinks I'm insane'cause I say these things out loud, but, like, I mean it.
• 26:47
  I'm like,"Our work's going to be in OliPop's inspiration deck in two years." Mm-hmm.
• 26:52
  Like, our work is going to be in PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, like The brands will be looking at what we are going to do as a case study in less than two to three years, and honestly, like- So our work matters we're already seeing some of that, but it was more- The team, I feel like that's the other commonality with my career moves is I've been so blessed.
• 27:13
  I've never had a job I didn't love, never, and it's always because of the people and psychological trust, like working in places where I can do a good job.
• 27:21
  The two most critical things that I will ride or die in building any sort of brand or organization, like you can't mess with those two things, and time and money.
• 27:30
  But they had hired, it was literally a blank slate.
• 27:33
  They're like,"You're coming in with literally nothing.
• 27:35
  We have 350 brands we've acquir- acquired around the world.
• 27:38
  We have hired the, head of creative who just, like, did the full rebrand at IBM.
• 27:43
  He came from Nike.
• 27:44
  We've just hired the head of communication from Ulta." Wow.
• 27:47
  "You would be coming in as the head." I was coming from Lego, and it was, like, literally like the Avengers assembling.
• 27:52
  And, like, the level of passion and confidence in doing, that we were gonna do this job was so palatable, and I think there's so many benefits for working for an established, known brand, but there are so many limitations, and there's so many people.
• 28:06
  There's so many variations in people's energy for what they're doing, and to, like, build something from the ground up with people that unapologetically were committed to the same thing, and that had the capability was, like, a no-brainer.
• 28:18
  And it's been a wild ride, and it's not been perfect.
• 28:20
  It's been very messy.
• 28:21
  I'm, I'm a crier.
• 28:23
  I, I like, I don't, I think it's crazy that people act like, you know, you're a different human at work than you are at home.
• 28:28
  That I would say no, I'm not.
• 28:29
  I'm exactly the same.
• 28:29
  But it's, um, that's kind of where I am now, and then always have had some sort of, like, side hustle on the side.
• 28:35
  Which has been really helpful for me just in, like- figuring out who I am I also think it helps when you have the side hustle and you're doing something for yourself, it's allowing you to actually, like, use the social platforms- Mm-hmm and you get so much more of an education that way- Yes when you're actually using it for your own personal use, and you know the ins and outs of it.
• 28:55
  Like, I walk the walk.
• 28:56
  And I'm sure...
• 28:56
  Exactly.
• 28:56
  Like- You walk the walk, right.
• 28:57
  Like, you you actually know how to utilize these things, and then you can apply that to how a company would utilize these things.
• 29:04
  And I know what goes into it.
• 29:04
  Right.
• 29:04
  And I feel like with social in particular, like, that is the biggest misconception.
• 29:08
  I was just having this conversation at work today, that, you know, is social content creative?
• 29:13
  If you're a content creator, you are creative.
• 29:15
  You don't have a design degree.
• 29:16
  And I'm like so adamant about, yes.
• 29:18
  I mean, I think the internet in general has just decoupled and deconstructed all traditional linear paths to careers now.
• 29:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:24
  Like, you can be what you want to be.
• 29:25
  You can be an authority on something because you choose to be.
• 29:28
  And because you learn it yourself, you know?
• 29:30
  Like, it's just- Right not linear anymore.
• 29:31
  Right.
• 29:32
  And I know, like, the brands that people point at that are doing social well.
• 29:36
  There's, you know, th- these as- assumptions that it's secondary.
• 29:38
  I'm like, these brands are investing millions of dollars into doing this well.
• 29:42
  Like, I know what it takes a creator to create an asset that gets approved by a brand.
• 29:47
  I know what t- how much time it takes.
• 29:48
  So I can go in from the onset and really advocate for the right investment, and I can put the right measurement in place instead of, you know, really relying on more traditional indicators.
• 29:58
  And also, not for nothing, but when people tell me that I can't do something, I'm like,"Actually, I know that we can." Mm-hmm.
• 30:03
  'Cause I have access to it on the back end.
• 30:04
  So.
• 30:05
  Right.
• 30:05
  So when did you put yourself in front of the camera?
• 30:07
  Because it sounds like for a long time you were building these social campaigns for other companies.
• 30:11
  Yeah.
• 30:12
  And then you put, then you became, like, the face of a social campaign.
• 30:16
  It's been, it's been congruent this whole time, which is crazy.
• 30:19
  So you were doing it the whole time.
• 30:20
  It's just transitioned from platform to platform, yeah.
• 30:23
  Wow.
• 30:23
  And now it's mostly Instagram.
• 30:25
  I used to have a blog.
• 30:26
  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 30:26
  I just don't have time, honestly.
• 30:27
  Yeah, same.
• 30:28
  Um, I think about doing a Substack, but I'm like- Yep my friend Liz is, like, really good about keeping me grounded in this, that she's, like, been successful truly by doing exactly what she wants to do.
• 30:41
  That's what she owns, and it, she sticks with it, and I think, and that's why it works.
• 30:46
  And I feel like I've been allowing myself the freedom to do that more.
• 30:49
  Like, it is what it is.
• 30:50
  In the past, I would've been like,"Why am I even doing Instagram if I don't have a blog, if I don't have this part set up or that part set up?" And it's like, this is what I'm doing right now.
• 30:58
  You feel pulled in, like, a million directions.
• 31:00
  Yeah.
• 31:00
  I feel the same way, where you're like, you could, always could be doing more- Mm-hmm but you just have to, like, stick with what's working and what you know and what can contribute to your business currently.
• 31:09
  100%.
• 31:09
  And so talk to us about motherhood entering- Mm-hmm the chat, right?
• 31:14
  Yeah.
• 31:14
  In the midst of career transitions.
• 31:17
  Talk to us a little bit about that,'cause you had said you had Nell, who's your daughter.
• 31:20
  Yeah.
• 31:20
  You had Nell when you were still at Lego.
• 31:22
  Yes.
• 31:23
  And when did you have your sons?
• 31:26
  I had them also when I was at Lego.
• 31:28
  Okay.
• 31:28
  I was there for about two years, or a year and a half after they were born.
• 31:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:31
  Yeah, motherhood rocked me.
• 31:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:32
  I had never worried about motherhood.
• 31:36
  My mom was a NICU nurse.
• 31:37
  I've always loved babies.
• 31:39
  I, went through a sig- a, a pretty extensive fertility journey, and I, and that part was hard.
• 31:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 31:44
  But even when I was pregnant, I was never worried about the actual, like, motherhood part.
• 31:48
  Right.
• 31:49
  I just, like, felt innately like I was gonna be fine at it, and it just n- it just, my whole world turned upside down.
• 31:56
  I had horrific postpartum depression.
• 31:58
  Very, very severe.
• 32:00
  For someone that's a high achiever, high-energy individual, being bad at something and being completely incapacitated, especially when it's something you're supposed to be naturally good at, was the most, like, soul-altering experience of my life.
• 32:17
  Like, it just- That's, like, soul-crushing.
• 32:19
  Yeah.
• 32:19
  'Cause to be, like, bad at something, you're like,"Oh, maybe this just isn't for me.
• 32:23
  Okay, I can make peace with this." Mm-hmm.
• 32:24
  But, like- Or there's a workaround, right?
• 32:26
  Yeah.
• 32:26
  Like, you can figure out how to make it work.
• 32:28
  Or you could quit.
• 32:29
  Yeah.
• 32:29
  You know?
• 32:29
  Yeah, right, right.
• 32:30
  Try, try something else.
• 32:31
  Like, nope, she's mine now.
• 32:32
  Mothering, there is- Like...
• 32:33
  Right.
• 32:33
  There's really no workaround for that.
• 32:35
  No.
• 32:35
  And I think that's a part of the postpartum depression- Mm-hmm and anxiety, you know?
• 32:41
  That realization.
• 32:41
  Is that statement right there.
• 32:42
  Right.
• 32:43
  Is that,"Oh, man, I, maybe I'm not good at this." Mm-hmm.
• 32:45
  You know?
• 32:46
  And, like, now what?
• 32:47
  There's a permanency to it.
• 32:47
  And when, and when- There's a kid and when am I gonna get good at it?
• 32:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:49
  You know?
• 32:50
  And, like- It's not like with the dad, when the dads get good at it when the kids are old enough to, like, play with and throw a ball with and, you know, take them out for lunch or whatever, you know?
• 32:59
  Yeah.
• 32:59
  It was also, postpartum depression in particular, was just- life altering because I was not in control.
• 33:09
  There was literally nothing I could do.
• 33:10
  Like, I was sitting in my body like a shell of a human sta- staring at the ceiling, and it's like I l- no matter what I do- You can't get out like, there's nothing I can do.
• 33:17
  Like, and I think for me it was a really life altering experience to, one, really have to, like, disconnect my sense of self-worth from being good at everything right away, and also really humbled me to say, like,"Welcome to real life." You're gonna do hard things, and you're gonna have to lean on others to do them, and you're going to have to, like, fully accept failure as part of that journey.
• 33:45
  Were you- Which I think only has helped me in every o- other aspect of life.
• 33:48
  Were you thinking because you were having trouble connecting, the career ambition along with motherhood?
• 33:54
  Were, was there a disconnect there?
• 33:56
  No.
• 33:57
  I feel like I was very lucky.
• 33:59
  I haven't struggled with mom guilt as much as I feel like other- Yeah mothers have.
• 34:04
  That's, that's surprising to me,'cause I would think that that's where that was stemming from.
• 34:08
  Yeah.
• 34:08
  It was more that I felt like I was good at, really good at my job.
• 34:12
  I was, I felt like I'd like...
• 34:15
  I knew what I wanted to do.
• 34:16
  Like, I was raised in a very, sink or swim household where, like, no one's coming to save you.
• 34:21
  Like, you're going to be successful if you decide to be successful or you won't.
• 34:26
  My parents didn't know where I applied to college.
• 34:28
  They paid the application fee, I think.
• 34:30
  Again, there's benefits and negatives to any parenting style, but I had become, very comfortable being reliant on myself and only seeking validation from myself.
• 34:39
  So I think when it came to motherhood and having a career, I, always naturally assumed that I would be doing both, because my career was such a fulfilling part of who I was.
• 34:49
  That was a great source of validation for me.
• 34:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:51
  And I knew non-negotiably that I wanted to be a parent.
• 34:55
  My mom also worked growing, my entire life growing up, but not in a traditional sense.
• 35:00
  We were a military family.
• 35:01
  We moved every two to four years, and every time we moved she got another degree, starting with her associate's when my parents were first married.
• 35:08
  Maybe it was even, like, a nursing license.
• 35:10
  And then we moved, she got her RN.
• 35:13
  We moved again, she got her midwifery degree.
• 35:15
  We moved again, she got her nurse practitioner degree.
• 35:17
  We moved again, she got a master's, and she got her doctorate degree at 54.
• 35:22
  Wow.
• 35:22
  And she's now starting a brand-new career.
• 35:24
  So I think that mindset that, of, eternally growing has always been part of who I am.
• 35:30
  I never had this, like, facade that it would be easy to do both, but I always knew that it would be S- a, a balance that I would need to find a way to tackle because I, it was never really an option for me to not do both.
• 35:47
  Well, when you have kids and you're told, like,"I can do this.
• 35:51
  I got this.
• 35:51
  I only have to rely on myself," like, I think that that's a beautiful thing, though- Mm-hmm to not seek validations from others.
• 35:56
  I know.
• 35:56
  However, I think that when you become a mom- Hmm you have to have trust in others.
• 36:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:00
  You have to put trust in others, and it doesn't mean that you don't need yourself anymore, your own validation.
• 36:04
  Right.
• 36:04
  But you just quite simply have to lean on others around you.
• 36:08
  Yeah, and I d- I don't think that it's- You know what I was doing possible- Yeah to do it alone.
• 36:12
  No.
• 36:13
  You know?
• 36:13
  Especially- That's what rocked me with twins.
• 36:14
  Like, that's what drove, I think, a lot of the postpartum is- Yeah and honestly, like, my struggles in motherhood and why I, I put so much of my energy and effort in my professional and personal life in advocating for women and mothers- Mm-hmm is what rocked me was how poorly prepared society was for the realities of modern families, and in particular, working mothers.
• 36:38
  I had no idea.
• 36:39
  Like, I knew childcare was expensive.
• 36:41
  I didn't know that having three kids, my family would be spending over$6,000 a month in childcare.
• 36:46
  Like, how is that an achievable, realistic goal when you still have the talent gap that we have, where even if you've got a balance of men and women in your workplace, most of the women at a lot of corporations are in more junior level roles?
• 37:00
  How are they supposed to keep climbing up the ladder if they can't even afford the childcare that lets them prioritize their career?
• 37:06
  I think it was that first year back to work, I mean, I was so lucky that I had six months of maternity leave.
• 37:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:11
  And I remember at the six-week mark where, my OB told me she was gonna go back to work, I remember just, like, sitting there just still, like, bleeding, leaking, not even fully ramped up on solving for my postpartum even remotely, and saying like,"Can you imagine if I was to go back to a workplace right now?" And I had that six months, but that first year after, the realities of not that the world wasn't set up, the world was literally working against me.
• 37:39
  Wow.
• 37:39
  Like, we had full-time childcare.
• 37:42
  Babies in childcare are going to get sick at least twice a month, every month, the first year of their life in daycare, 100% of the time.
• 37:51
  The...
• 37:51
  It's not negotiable.
• 37:52
  Every time your child is sick, you are out of work for two days- Mm-hmm at a minimum.
• 37:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:56
  The day you pick them up is a guaranteed day out the next day,'cause it's 24 hours in between.
• 38:01
  And with COVID, it got even worse, because all of a sudden the expectation on parents was that you can work while being home with sick kids.
• 38:08
  So now you're trying to physically work while also parent.
• 38:10
  And I think- Did you ever do it?
• 38:11
  Like, did you ever- Yeah have the kids on your lap and show them what it was like?
• 38:15
  100%.
• 38:16
  And I, I knew that- And how was it received?
• 38:18
  Yeah.
• 38:18
  Like, what's on the other end?
• 38:20
  Yeah.
• 38:20
  I'd say COVID helped, I think, societally, and you know, I've d- read a lot of the data around...
• 38:26
  It's sad because people forget quickly.
• 38:28
  Right.
• 38:28
  People, like- True, right forget w- what, what we knew to be true.
• 38:33
  People are very quick to kind of- Use data that's helpful to where they want things to go- Right versus, I think, kind of using data to make decisions, which, which is what it's supposed to be used for.
• 38:43
  But the data was very clear after COVID that the majority of parents and families came out of that experience saying,"I'm no longer willing to compromise family balance and life for my employer anymore at the levels in which I did." And I think while there's been a lot of rollbacks on that with corporate policy and, culturally, I do think that it has normalized other elements that people aren't really contesting anymore.
• 39:09
  Like, every job I had before COVID, including the job I had before COVID, during COVID, and after, which was the same role, you had to be at your desk at 8:30.
• 39:18
  Like, if it was 8:34, like, I was sweating- Right sitting down at my desk.
• 39:22
  Like, who saw me?
• 39:22
  Like, who saw- You were late.
• 39:23
  Right.
• 39:23
  You were late.
• 39:24
  Yes.
• 39:24
  You had an hour for lunch- Right and it was from 12 to 1:00.
• 39:27
  You did not leave the office until 5:00.
• 39:29
  You did not leave the office until someone more senior than you then had left.
• 39:32
  Like, I can't even imagine this world- Right in which I cannot remember the last time that I even thought about when my team was starting their workday.
• 39:39
  Like, we have core hours.
• 39:41
  And, and you're just as productive?
• 39:43
  100%.
• 39:44
  And I feel like that has, while some levels of flexibility have, you know, really become tightened, I do think overall as a culture It is more normalized, one, for both parents and caregivers to be the ones that are leaving work versus just the mom, because that was necessary during COVID.
• 40:00
  And two, I think it's become highly normalized, especially if you're working outside of your core work hours, that your family's gonna be there.
• 40:08
  Like, I don't feel any pressure if you're gonna call me at 7:00.
• 40:11
  Like, I'm gonna be making dinner.
• 40:11
  You're gonna hear your kids in the background, right?
• 40:13
  Yeah.
• 40:13
  Right.
• 40:13
  And I make a point, I don't know if you guys follow, um- Actually, I was just thinking about you because you were the way I found this brand actually years ago.
• 40:22
  It was at Cake?
• 40:23
  Yes.
• 40:23
  Yes.
• 40:23
  Yes.
• 40:23
  Yes, and you were like, I, like, always associate with you with them because I was like,"What is she talking about?" Like, Christina.
• 40:29
  And she is doing, Taylor is doing great things.
• 40:32
  So now- Yeah I follow Taylor personally.
• 40:33
  Yeah, yeah.
• 40:33
  And one thing that I took away that has really stuck with me recently is, is writing down and saying out loud these nuances of work culture because you can role model them and say, like,"It's no problem if you have to go pick up your kids." People don't actually inherit that sense of psychological safety until you- You do it literally write it...
• 40:54
  Not even if you do it, if you write it down and formalize it.
• 40:58
  Like saying,"This is okay- That makes it okay to do it." Yes.
• 41:00
  Right.
• 41:00
  Even if it sounds small.
• 41:01
  Right.
• 41:01
  Like, it feels so- Wow like, why do I need to write down, like, it's okay if you have to ch- pick your children up from school.
• 41:07
  I wouldn't- It's okay if they're in the background of a- It's okay if you're- Right, right.
• 41:10
  To me, it's like- Wow maybe it doesn't look like that, but I have been making a point to, like, write down, like, I expect our teams to be available between these hours and these hours for meetings.
• 41:22
  Or, this day of the week is a core flexibility day.
• 41:25
  Like, sometimes it's saying what should, what needs to be true.
• 41:28
  You don't always have to say exactly what the implications are, meaning, like, you have flexibility.
• 41:32
  But, I've been really making a point to, like- Mm verbalize what these elements of my, like, leadership ethos so that people can, actually believe them.
• 41:42
  Like, take upon that.
• 41:42
  Cool.
• 41:42
  Like, take them on.
• 41:43
  Take action.
• 41:44
  Because I think- Comfortably sometimes it's like you don't really know when you're in a company what the actual culture is like.
• 41:49
  Right.
• 41:49
  Like, sometimes there's rules, and then sometimes you're there for a while, and you're like,"Eh, these don't, people don't really follow these," but you don't know that.
• 41:56
  Right.
• 41:56
  And then you don't wanna be the one to step in and, like, and do the wrong thing.
• 41:59
  Right.
• 41:59
  So I, that's really very- And I don't, like- relieving to hear that.
• 42:04
  You know?
• 42:05
  That it's like I'm, I'm assuming it's like you wanna model that.
• 42:08
  Right.
• 42:08
  But also it's in writing so that people feel comfortable- Mm-hmm taking that on.
• 42:13
  Totally, yes.
• 42:13
  Just like you said, maybe OLIPOP or other beverage brands are gonna be following what you're doing right now.
• 42:19
  My friend Sarah works at OLIPOP, by the way.
• 42:20
  That's why I use that one.
• 42:21
  But yes.
• 42:22
  But I think that what Taylor is doing at Cake's- Mm-hmm is going to be followed by many brands- Agreed coming, like, coming soon.
• 42:32
  And the thing that- Like, she pays childcare.
• 42:34
  Her employees- That's huge get, like,$3,000 a month in childcare.
• 42:37
  And they're profitable.
• 42:38
  Per child.
• 42:38
  And, like, this is- And- where I'm trying to find my niche, is like I can't do that.
• 42:43
  That's where I struggle in corporate, is that I'm like,"I'm not- private equity firm- Right that owns it.
• 42:49
  Right.
• 42:49
  I'm not the CEO.
• 42:50
  Right.
• 42:50
  So I can, I have to balance my own beliefs- Yeah and even if they're backed by data, and I went through this extensively in my last role, with exhaustive advocacy that didn't end up resulting in any level of meaningful change.
• 43:05
  Because you're still an employee at the end of the day.
• 43:07
  I'm still- Right we're still employees.
• 43:08
  Right.
• 43:08
  And I think, but what I can do is, a- and I wonder sometimes, it, it discourages me sometimes when I see the change happening primarily through female entrepreneurs.
• 43:20
  Of course.
• 43:20
  Because the ability for that to scale the f- the mass market is a privileged point of view.
• 43:27
  Not everyone can afford to start their own company to do things- Mm the way that they wanna do, especially women.
• 43:31
  That's really challenging.
• 43:32
  So those that have done it are, you're right, especially ones like Cakes that are starting to become the gold standard and have just built it in.
• 43:39
  Like, I loved when someone asked her, like,"How did you plan for that?" And her answer was like,"We didn't.
• 43:44
  We just did it, and, like, nothing bad happened." Yeah.
• 43:46
  I feel like that's that comfortability with change.
• 43:49
  Right.
• 43:49
  Like, with social, people say like,"Well, what if, you know, this post goes really poorly?" I'm like,"Then it does." Right.
• 43:54
  Yeah.
• 43:54
  Like, I have that same kind of mentality about doing w- what you know to be right.
• 43:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 43:59
  But what encourages me about what she's doing is that she's now building the data set, and I can't do that.
• 44:05
  And before this, the data was all from people as individuals, as moms.
• 44:10
  The data was, what is the point of view of mothers that live outside of Chicago?
• 44:14
  What is the...
• 44:14
  And that just, companies, I don't think, value that as much as an organization that is successful, that has broken through and created a brand-new category, that is profitable, who continues to triple their revenue, or whatever it is.
• 44:26
  And they also take time off.
• 44:27
  She said she took an entire month off.
• 44:29
  For the whole company.
• 44:30
  The whole company.
• 44:30
  She is the most impressive individual, her and her sister.
• 44:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:34
  And not only this, they were both working full time doing other jobs, and she said that every day she would pay- The magic hour figure out a way to, like, carve out time to, to start Cakes.
• 44:45
  That's what I do.
• 44:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 44:46
  Like, that's so- Yeah cool and so impressive.
• 44:50
  But she formalizes- But also rewarding these things- Yeah in a way that- But she formalizes it.
• 44:52
  Yeah.
• 44:52
  Yeah.
• 44:53
  She doesn't- She's like,"That's what I've done" just say- Yeah"Oh, I just do it.
• 44:55
  I just make it work." Right.
• 44:57
  Well, how?
• 44:57
  Exactly.
• 44:58
  Well, how?
• 44:58
  Exactly.
• 44:58
  Like, tell us exactly how.
• 45:00
  Yeah.
• 45:00
  You know?
• 45:00
  And I think that, like, when people ask me, like,"How do you do it all?" I'm like,"You genuinely have to evaluate," and you can use Claude to do this- Mm-hmm but you genuinely have to take stock of what your objectives are and what your current tools are, meaning your job, your time, all of these things, and you have to, one, decide if you want to operate from a place of, running against a clock or if you want to come work from a place of working toward an objective.
• 45:32
  And what I mean by that is, like, you can look at your plate and say,"Okay, there's no way that we can afford childcare," Which I did for years with things like my social presence.
• 45:41
  Um, I was stuck at some, like, mid-10,000 follower le- number for a long time, and I'm doing all the right thing.
• 45:48
  At the end of the day, I was too scared to invest even a little bit in myself, and I wasn't realizing that was in fact the reason that I was never gonna scale.
• 45:57
  So at some point you have to say,"Okay, what is the level of risk we're comfortable with that if I invest in this, it's not buying me space for tomorrow, it's buying space towards something that I'm building that will, I have confidence, will become worthy of this investment times tenfold?" And once I started looking at my life that way, m- I will say the ability for me to do more of what brings me joy has definitely increased.
• 46:27
  I also think you found your, like, you, you grew because you started sharing all of this.
• 46:33
  Yeah.
• 46:34
  Like, you were vocal about this.
• 46:35
  Yeah.
• 46:36
  And I think that your influence,'cause we say, it's like, what do you even call yourself?
• 46:40
  It's, like, an influencer, a blogger, a content creator.
• 46:43
  I think that you're a beautiful storyteller.
• 46:44
  You're- she's a storyteller.
• 46:45
  Honestly, I think that- That's so kind when I look at your page, I think that you are a storyteller.
• 46:49
  Like, I never- That's so nice swipe past.
• 46:51
  And also, you don't usually post something that is swipe-pastable- because it's qui- it's quite literally usually, like- It's content quality.
• 46:57
  Right almost like a novel.
• 46:59
  Like, you're letting us into the whole thing- Yeah and you tell us so many beautiful stories, and they're very honest.
• 47:04
  Thank you.
• 47:04
  That's really nice.
• 47:04
  I feel like you are a storyteller more than like- Yeah, right just a little life sharer- A content creator.
• 47:07
  Right, right or, like, a buy this or a look at this, you know?
• 47:11
  Well, you're sharing- That's really kind you're sharing a lot of, like, valuable information, especially now, and I feel like it always takes a while, right, to just, like, find your groove and- Yes what you wanna talk about and what's actually resonating with people, and I think that that's probably what started to grow- Yeah you and your account, was that you found this space that not a lot of people were talking about, and people are resonating with this advocacy for working moms.
• 47:37
  Yeah.
• 47:37
  And I feel like, do you feel like that was kind of the growth that you started to see?
• 47:41
  Like- Yeah, I think it-'cause that's, now, that's, when I look at you, that's what I was like,"She needs to come on and talk about this," you know?
• 47:47
  Like, that's, that- Yeah, please, like, send me those things that's the angle.
• 47:49
  Right.
• 47:50
  I think, yes.
• 47:51
  I think it's twofold.
• 47:52
  One, I feel like lately I've been looking less, actually, at what performs well, and that has been driving growth, which has been scary, and two, I've had to really hype myself up and get brave, because I will tell you, I don't think it should be a secret, I am terrified every time I post about being a working mom.
• 48:13
  Like, I almost get emotional about it.
• 48:14
  Like, I am a m- I am a global vice president at a multi-billion dollar company.
• 48:19
  I am an individual.
• 48:20
  I am not speaking on behalf of my company.
• 48:22
  I don't tie my content to my employer, but I feel like I am risking my own...
• 48:27
  No one's made me feel this way.
• 48:28
  This is just the- Yeah reality of being a working parent.
• 48:32
  I feel always this little twinge of, like, how far can I go before I'm risking something being misinterpreted or me being, needing to kind of- Be more quiet about these topics because I do have a massive responsibility that is not in my control, and that is my job.
• 48:52
  And not only am I not willing to give that up, the other people, thing people don't talk about is they assume in every marriage or parental partnership that the woman is always the one that can step back in her role.
• 49:04
  My family cannot afford for me to take a step back.
• 49:07
  Like- So do you feel like you're risking that every time you talk about this?
• 49:10
  I, I feel that sense of risk and fear every time, b- and that's me.
• 49:15
  Like, that's me deciding that.
• 49:17
  No one's ever made me feel that way.
• 49:18
  I've been nothing but supported by my coworkers.
• 49:22
  Like, they were all dying.
• 49:23
  They all, they were all laughing at the, I filmed 40 minutes of my life just for fun the other day, and I was like, I was dying watching it back.
• 49:30
  I'm like,"That was a whole life in 40 minutes." Like, one kid drew on the side of the house, another one dumped a bag of soil on the floor, and, and, and then I found out it was Green Day the ne- Like, it was a whole life in 40.
• 49:40
  And it was like, holy cow, we are really maxed out.
• 49:42
  Like, and my coworkers, it was heartwarming to me that they thought to share with me that they found that really funny and relatable.
• 49:49
  So there's never been a conversation at work where you've had to sit down and have something formal like- Like a conflict of interest or something I'm doing this and I'm sharing this.
• 49:56
  Is this gonna be a conflict of interest?
• 49:58
  It- Like, where is that written down?
• 50:00
  Yeah, so I have not had to have that conversation formally, but I think part of that is privilege because I lead social media and influencer for a living.
• 50:10
  So it's like kind of bec- it overlaps.
• 50:12
  Yes.
• 50:12
  So you're kind of like,"I kinda need to be doing these things." I think there's maybe- Like, you've used the word, like, walk the walk.
• 50:17
  I need to walk the walk- Mm-hmm on some of these things.
• 50:19
  I think that's a very interesting topic because I think that people wanna share.
• 50:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:24
  And then I've seen, uh, the other side of things where it does become a conflict of interest- Mm-hmm especially if you're working for a company.
• 50:30
  Feel like, I mean, two nuances.
• 50:32
  One, I have been very specific about the companies that I have joined, and when even joining, I think this is a super important conversation too that I haven't really broached yet and is more specific, but- I w- get nervous sometimes when I share these things because I think people assume if I share them, that where I work or what I can offer as an employee is exactly all these things that I think are perfect.
• 50:55
  That's not realistic for me.
• 50:56
  Like we said, I don't own the company.
• 50:57
  What I do commit to when I join an organization is unapologetically outlining my expectations, my boundaries, and also asking literally anything that I feel I need to know about where we're at as an organization and where we wanna go.
• 51:15
  I think it's more helpful and realistic for someone in my role right now to join an organization that is on a change journey, that has the b- the right ambitions, versus joining an organization that is already has all these things in place.
• 51:28
  But I don't think the internet, for example, understands, would necessarily give me that grace.
• 51:33
  Like,"Oh, you're sitting here talking about this, this, and this, but what's your company's maternity leave policy?" That's where I, why I feel fearsome fear.
• 51:39
  Do you get that sort of feedback?
• 51:42
  Um, yes.
• 51:43
  I do get comments sometimes saying, like, uh, and I do not typically respond to those because I'm not here as a company spokesperson.
• 51:49
  Right.
• 51:49
  I'm here as myself.
• 51:51
  Um, but what I, what I will share if people ask is that when I was interviewing for the role, I asked lots of explicit questions around what is your current maternity policy?
• 52:01
  How do you view that to be in the competitive landscape?
• 52:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 52:06
  What level of, empowerment do you give your people leaders to participate in building what you want to do next?
• 52:15
  And I shared very candidly in my last interview process that I'm not planning on having any, any more children, but what I do hear as part of my assignment, if I were to, to join this team, is to build a team of highly competitive, talented people.
• 52:30
  And I know from my experience that in order for me to do that, there are things that I know I need to be true, both for me to be successful as a leader, I can't be stressed about how much time people take off as a leader.
• 52:40
  It's not part of my ethos.
• 52:42
  So, like, I won't be successful at a company that says you need to be clocking your vacation days two years in advance, and you get two per y- Like, I need to be able to extend trust to my people.
• 52:54
  That's, like, part of what lets me be successful.
• 52:56
  Right.
• 52:56
  So how can you expect the people that work with you or for you to not have that same flexibility?
• 53:01
  Or- Right if they are gonna...
• 53:02
  You know that you're hiring ambitious women- Mm-hmm who are of childbearing age- Exactly who are gonna start a family.
• 53:07
  You need to- There you go ensure to them that they can take the time, and then they get back to work- Mm-hmm and they're not gonna have to take 10 years off- And that's their space with me to raise their family.
• 53:14
  Yeah.
• 53:15
  You know?
• 53:15
  And it would also hinder the, the pool of women- Mm-hmm it would hinder the pool of anybody applying for that job.
• 53:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:23
  Like, it's like you're not getting the best people for the role if you're always having to look at family policy and, like, not, I guess not, um- High caliber talent- flexible family policy.
• 53:33
  Yeah, the days are gone where high caliber talent has to sacrifice that.
• 53:37
  Like, That's the bigger picture to me for organizations.
• 53:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 53:39
  It's like, in terms of supporting making it feasible for women to work and be parents, like, high caliber talent, the next generations, that is their baseline expectation.
• 53:51
  I've shared this before too, that I'm like,"We can think whatever we want as millennials or even..." But, like, it's...
• 53:56
  Gen Z's not even asking.
• 53:57
  Like, this is- It's expected that's, that's expected.
• 54:00
  Right.
• 54:00
  And you're not...
• 54:01
  Like, that, it's just a necessity.
• 54:02
  So I mean, I'll never forget this one- Again, it's like not all rainbows and, and, um...
• 54:08
  I was gonna say rainbows and Cheerios.
• 54:10
  Like what?
• 54:11
  Rainbows, rainbows and sunshine.
• 54:12
  There we go.
• 54:13
  Saying it.
• 54:13
  I know I might be why.
• 54:15
  Maybe you were thinking of Lucky Charms.
• 54:15
  Yes.
• 54:16
  I, I told you I needed caffeine.
• 54:18
  Um, but there was one time- And now you need a sandwich.
• 54:19
  Yeah, now I need a sandwich.
• 54:22
  There was one time in my career where I was, interviewing a incredibly, talented candidate from a very competitive global brand, and, my leader at the time asked me, this is not at a company I've worked for in a long time, asked me how old she was, and I shared their age, and I said- shared, you know, kind of their geolocation scenario, and she said,"Are you sure you w- really wanna hire her?
• 54:44
  Sounds to me like the typical girl that's looking for a job outside the city so she can get pregnant and not come back." And I said- So dishonoring oh, my God.
• 54:52
  Okay.
• 54:53
  And she said,"Well, What are you gonna do if you hire her, and then she gets pregnant?" And I just remember my gut reaction.
• 54:59
  I just said what was at the top of my mind.
• 55:00
  I said,"I'll just throw her a baby shower." Right.
• 55:04
  Like, and I just remember sitting there stunned, like, uh, uh, I was like so out-of-body, and this was another female.
• 55:09
  And it was like those little moments that were...
• 55:11
  that, yes, they weren't the best, but they were so pivotal in helping me f- build my confidence in my gut of like the type of person that I wanna be.
• 55:19
  And if I do have ambitions to be in the corporate workplace, like the kind of leader and supportive person that- I know is al- critical, not just to my team's success, but also my ability to be successful for the organization.
• 55:34
  I think this is- Mm so inspiring because this is so helpful for obviously not just your organization.
• 55:39
  It's inspiring because you're so vocal about it, so anybody else taking a senior level role looking at you, right?
• 55:47
  So we're talking about your influence, could look at you and say,"Well, that's how I would wanna manage a team as well." That's right.
• 55:53
  But then you're also opening up this conversation to maybe women who are going back to work, who are trying to get ahead in their careers, who maybe are a little bit younger and are Gen Z k- kind of coming into a corporate world.
• 56:09
  You're opening up the conversation for them to feel comfortable talking about these things, because it's important for them to talk about these things.
• 56:16
  That's right.
• 56:16
  So I think that your influence is going extremely far, and you have to give yourself, like, a big pat on the back for that- Oh, that's so kind because it's huge.
• 56:25
  It's going so many different ways.
• 56:27
  Speaking of the kids being home.
• 56:28
  Speaking of kids.
• 56:29
  I feel like- Things have changed quite a bit.
• 56:31
  When I was a kid...
• 56:32
  My kids are all home- Yeah'cause it's too hot outside.
• 56:35
  Yeah.
• 56:35
  And that's, when I was a kid, we didn't have air-conditioning at school.
• 56:38
  At any school.
• 56:39
  The teachers- Yeah would turn the lights off- Mm-hmm and that was the air-conditioning.
• 56:41
  My kids, my child was- A dim room out of school today.
• 56:44
  A dim room.
• 56:44
  Not because the whole school isn't air-conditioned.
• 56:45
  The cafeteria is hot.
• 56:47
  I feel confident that my child can successfully eat her lunch in her classroom.
• 56:51
  Also, also same.
• 56:52
  Like, I don't understand.
• 56:53
  Also same.
• 56:54
  I don't, I also don't understand.
• 56:56
  And the reason why we're even in school today was because there was a dusting in snow back in f- uh, Feb- in February.
• 57:01
  That's right.
• 57:01
  And that- So this, this is, like, going to our whole point of, like- the kids get dismissed from school, and so who handles that?
• 57:08
  Yeah.
• 57:09
  Right?
• 57:09
  It's like- We- the working parents hide.
• 57:12
  Like- Hide.
• 57:12
  Ex- well, I feel like- Right one of my, like, deepest secrets- There's notes being passed under the door right now.
• 57:16
  Yeah.
• 57:16
  I've, uh, I actually am- Notes being passed now what is it they say?
• 57:18
  Bring me home.
• 57:19
  I will take a note under my door than, like- over 17 relentless door knocks and,"Mama, Mama, Mama, Mom." Um, but I feel like one of my d- my deepest secrets, it's not a secret, I just, like, haven't found the right wa- way to tell the story yet, and it's not fully my story to tell.
• 57:30
  But, like, people do ask, like,"When do you shoot your content?" Like, I was in Italy a couple of months ago and my coworkers were waiting for me downstairs, and I was like,"I'll be right there." And then I was in the elevator and they were texting, like,"You better not be up there Instagramming." And I was like,"What are you talking about?" And then I looked at my feed and I was like,"Oh," and I had like 15 stories going live.
• 57:46
  And I was like,"I didn't even know they were being posted." Yeah.
• 57:48
  The only reason also that I've been able to grow my channel is that my sister-in-law- Who is taking a career pause, who is an ex-consultant, has stepped in as my manager Oh, she's helping I'm not even, she's managing my metrics every month.
• 58:02
  She's negotiating my brand deals So what's your workflow?
• 58:04
  You are, you come up with an idea Or she does sometimes.
• 58:07
  Like my- Or she does three most successful posts in the last six months have been her idea And what, like how did that work?
• 58:12
  Will she say like,"Hey Meg, I have an idea." Yeah.
• 58:14
  Film this Once a week she like sends, um, my husband and I,'cause I also am just really bad at logistics.
• 58:19
  I have an ADHD.
• 58:20
  How long did it take us to schedule this?
• 58:21
  Oh my God, months Like, yeah, like- Months And it's, some of that's availability.
• 58:25
  Yeah, yeah.
• 58:25
  I have- Yeah I have- 31 notifications right now.
• 58:29
  I have 531 unread texts messages.
• 58:30
  Well, you also sent me your- That means you have higher achiever you also sent me your calendar, and I was, like, gonna hyperventilate.
• 58:35
  I was like,"I can't." Oh, that was a light day.
• 58:36
  Yeah.
• 58:37
  Today was a light day.
• 58:37
  We got Friday.
• 58:38
  That was a Friday.
• 58:38
  Yeah, no problem.
• 58:38
  Um, I, yeah, we typically, like, talk, once she's in the back end of my Shop My Account, she, negotiates all my links.
• 58:46
  Honestly, I don't even, like, she knows me so well at this point that she, like, chooses half of the products I select that I might accept that are gifted.
• 58:53
  And then she manages contracting.
• 58:55
  She creates a content calendar for me every week to make sure I'm, like, not missing any of the opportunities that are due.
• 59:00
  My husband then takes that and shoots any content when he gets home from work that I might need of, like, a product that I'm promoting, and then he, we upload all...
• 59:10
  And I, like, the other morning, I was up at, like, 5:00'cause one of the kids was up, so I shot a couple of outfits in the mirror and up- I upload them to a shared folder.
• 59:18
  Oh, okay.
• 59:18
  And then she does it.
• 59:20
  And then she does it, yeah.
• 59:20
  Well, when you do your videos, like the one you shared- When I yap yap, I'm just yapping.
• 59:23
  Yeah.
• 59:24
  Yeah.
• 59:24
  That's, but I love those.
• 59:26
  Yeah.
• 59:26
  But, like, that's what I'm drawn to, and I, I don't mean to- Yeah like minimize the other things that you are doing- Yeah that you can monetize and make money off of.
• 59:32
  Right,'cause that's how it- You're willing to share things that's how it becomes a business.
• 59:34
  Because that's- Yeah how it becomes a business.
• 59:35
  Right, right.
• 59:36
  But I am so drawn to the natural yapping.
• 59:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:39
  Oh, and I would yap all day.
• 59:40
  You know?
• 59:40
  But you know what I've noticed?
• 59:41
  And again, this is what I do for a living, so I- Yeah am, like, insanely nuanced.
• 59:45
  Like, I just immediately get gun-shy when I see things that are authentic become trends.
• 59:51
  It really bothers me, Now it's yapping now everyone's talking about yapping, and it's, I'm seeing creators that I can tell that's not their natural state.
• 59:58
  And again, I'll still support them.
• 1:00:00
  Like, more is more is more.
• 1:00:01
  Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  Like, I want everyone to succeed.
• 1:00:02
  I don't get that either, where there's, like, any animosity toward that.
• 1:00:05
  Yeah, I chill people on to this, so this is not a- Yeah uh, and I'm a yapper, and I love, I love that yapping is trending now.
• 1:00:10
  But now yapping is becoming an Instagram trend.
• 1:00:12
  Yes.
• 1:00:12
  Like a day in the life is a trend.
• 1:00:15
  It's becoming something that's, yes, right, like it's becoming something that people feel like they need to excel in- Like Sunday reset- in order to succeed let's have a yap session.
• 1:00:22
  Right, exactly.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:22
  Exactly.
• 1:00:22
  But you are the OG re- yapper.
• 1:00:24
  Thank you.
• 1:00:24
  Yeah, I mean, I feel like at the end of the day, like everything goes and comes around, and I will probably never grow quickly.
• 1:00:30
  I will probably, I, I mean, o- one founder we were just talking about who's like a global transformative leader from my point of view, she has less than 10,000 followers right now.
• 1:00:38
  Like, the algorithm, y- if you try to let that control you, like you're always gonna be sacrificing some level of what is core to your brand.
• 1:00:44
  Some of that is necessary.
• 1:00:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:45
  I deal with this at work all the time.
• 1:00:47
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:47
  Like, how much are we willing to sacrifice what we wanna say versus what these platforms and our audience wants to see from us, right?
• 1:00:53
  It's a constant balance.
• 1:00:54
  But I do see some creators sometimes that I really do wanna say, like,"Just keep doing what you're good at." Right.
• 1:00:59
  Like, this is a flash in the pan.
• 1:01:00
  Just keep doing your thing.
• 1:01:00
  I know.
• 1:01:01
  Yapping will be out.
• 1:01:01
  Every video I post that does best is one that Instagram flags when I go to upload it that says,"Hello, this video is not- It's this going to be shown to new audiences." Right.
• 1:01:09
  Right.
• 1:01:10
  "Don't post it," basically.
• 1:01:10
  Right.
• 1:01:11
  And I'm like,"Well, this one's gonna do well.
• 1:01:12
  Post." But I'm curious to see what happens with the yapping trend, but I feel like- It's good, it's a good reminder to stay- Yeah in your lane and do what you're comfortable doing.
• 1:01:19
  And it's all, it's cool to like try something new, and I- Yeah appreciate when something like that is going around, but if that's not what you're comfortable doing, it shows, you know?
• 1:01:29
  Yeah.
• 1:01:29
  So it's- It's also, like- Again, like, welcome to my brain.
• 1:01:33
  Like, there is nothing that I'm doing that I haven't thought about 10 other reasons that are a reason that I'm doing it, that would drive anyone else insane, which is why I go insane all the time.
• 1:01:41
  Another reason I started posting videos of myself talking is because professionally, I feel as though I can struggle sometimes.
• 1:01:49
  I'm so passionate.
• 1:01:50
  I can struggle sometimes with being clear in my primary message and being concise enough.
• 1:01:56
  I also have ADHD.
• 1:01:57
  So part of the reason I've been doing these is so that I can practice getting more- concise- Mm-hmm without sacrificing my approach, which does resonate well in, in a corporate setting.
• 1:02:09
  Like, I'm a very confident presenter.
• 1:02:10
  I don't have stage fright.
• 1:02:11
  I'll present to anyone about anything.
• 1:02:14
  But I need to b- I wanna build that muscle.
• 1:02:16
  I wanna get better at it.
• 1:02:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:17
  Right.
• 1:02:17
  Oh, it's a muscle, for sure.
• 1:02:18
  How- Yeah how has your, now that you I mean, you've been online, obviously.
• 1:02:23
  You've given us examples from the very beginning you've been online.
• 1:02:25
  But how has this affected the people in your real life?
• 1:02:29
  Since you've had this online presence?
• 1:02:32
  Yeah.
• 1:02:32
  We could all pr- I feel like that's just a, a very- Yeah, we can all share interesting conversation.
• 1:02:35
  Because I'm, I'm- We all feel like we're in the same position.
• 1:02:38
  I just- Well- posted a video about this.
• 1:02:40
  I know.
• 1:02:40
  And- That's why I'm asking it was- Because even the responses, like, if you go onto this post and you read all of the responses, people share their experience- Mm-hmm with this, too.
• 1:02:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:49
  So wise.
• 1:02:50
  I'd say people in life, that, that's been tough for me.
• 1:02:54
  I feel like- And I've got really good responses that have helped me clarify, like if I were to post that video again, I think I would be even more clear in what I was trying to say.
• 1:03:03
  Because I confused the message a little bit with s- people thinking I was saying, like,"If you're my friend, you should be liking my posts and sharing my posts." And supporting me.
• 1:03:11
  I didn't get that- And I- I didn't get that message okay, I got some- I didn't get that message some like genuine, respectful inquiries from people being like,"So how do I support a friend?" And I'm- I saw, yeah, I saw those comments.
• 1:03:18
  Yeah.
• 1:03:19
  But, yeah.
• 1:03:19
  And that's g- I, I, like, trust me, I'm here for that entirely.
• 1:03:23
  From my personal story, that has not been a, an expectation I have of my personal, in real life friends and community.
• 1:03:29
  That isn't what I'm here for.
• 1:03:31
  Well, I just think, like, for instance- But I'm not here to try to grow a channel, to grow an audience, to build- Right at this point, so it's different.
• 1:03:36
  But I don't think that if you have an online presence your friends have to, like, quote, support your business.
• 1:03:42
  Just like my husband's a doctor, I don't expect my friends to go and see him in the office.
• 1:03:45
  Right.
• 1:03:46
  It's his profession.
• 1:03:47
  Right, right.
• 1:03:47
  I just want your support in life- Right as like- And that is what happened to me how it always used to be.
• 1:03:52
  And that was the message I got from it.
• 1:03:53
  Okay.
• 1:03:53
  Right.
• 1:03:53
  I thought you were- Yes very clear- Yes and concise in your message.
• 1:03:55
  Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  So that's what happened to me, and what I gained from my comments, and it's happened to me a few times, and I think the reason it, it hurts me so much is because I am, at this point in my life, 100% confident that I am one person where- wherever you engage with me.
• 1:04:09
  If you watch me from afar, while I'm eating lunch at a restaurant, I'm gonna be the exactly, with strangers, like, I'm just o- I'm the same person in any concept.
• 1:04:18
  Online, at work, like, whenever anyone has talked ill about me, someone posted once that they, like, saw me in an airport and I was smug.
• 1:04:25
  And I was like, one, I'm only in airports at, like, 4:00 AM.
• 1:04:27
  Right.
• 1:04:28
  Two, if I was looking at you and you're saying you had kids, I was probably just trying to assess if you'd be comfortable with me offering to help you.
• 1:04:34
  And three, I'm just not a smug person.
• 1:04:37
  Right.
• 1:04:37
  So that doesn't really bother me.
• 1:04:38
  It's more, what I think I've come to understand that I think happens is by posting your life online, I don't even think it's ne- it's necessarily intentional from these people that have disconnected from me.
• 1:04:51
  It's almost like a psychological curiosity that I have and want to understand more about, which is people's tendency to subconsciously connect the dots between what you post online and what they perceive you are doing in real life- Mm-hmm whether it's true or not, and I think it happens over time.
• 1:05:09
  So in the one or two circumstances in which I was given some sort of explanation as to why this was happening within our friendship, the examples given were, I can tell you have a lot of other friends now.
• 1:05:22
  Right.
• 1:05:22
  And you're really busy, and you spend a lot of time on Instagram.
• 1:05:27
  And i.e., you think you're too good for me, you're too busy for me, you have all these busy things.
• 1:05:31
  And I just remember being shocked because, one, it was during COVID or right after COVID, so I'd literally been hanging out with myself in my house.
• 1:05:37
  But, like, we had one child at the time.
• 1:05:40
  Our child was going to a specific school.
• 1:05:42
  They...
• 1:05:43
  Our children were in a physical classroom together, so there was probably one or two new families that we ended up spending time with during COVID because- It's because you were in that bubble our kids were hanging out with each other.
• 1:05:50
  Right.
• 1:05:51
  You were in that bubble.
• 1:05:52
  And I'm sure at first that probably was what this friend perceived was happening, but over time As more distance comes between you, I think people start to just subconsciously connect you with various things.
• 1:06:03
  Like, w- a friend that's still a really good friend, that, I met in real life and then she started following me online, and then we kind of became real-life friends, had said or remember when I was like,"Oh my gosh, I was so glad when I heard from you," or something like that, and she was like,"I just like following you online.
• 1:06:17
  I just assumed your friend bench was full Right, it, it like o- And that really stuck with me it gives a different perception to some people Yeah, and it's not You know?
• 1:06:26
  Right It's, everyone talks a lot about, like,"What you see on social media isn't real.
• 1:06:29
  My life's not perfect." Like, I don't think anyone thinks my life is perfect.
• 1:06:32
  Like, I share enough that it's, like, pretty clearly not perfect Right, right But I do think people see my life online and have filled in the blanks of every element of my life that they couldn't possibly have exposure to, and they then make choices and decisions and make assumptions about me based on these incorrect or inauthentic gap fillers that aren't my reality.
• 1:06:56
  There's always a disconnect, though, in those friendships anyway 100% So they're usually not coming from strong foundational friendships- 100% I hate to say, but that's the reality of the situation And that's what my friend said- Right.
• 1:07:07
  It's, it's, and that- said so articulately Because I, I'm sure we could all speak to things, people have said similar things to me of like,"Oh, well I saw you were here," so then they don't even ask about something, right?
• 1:07:18
  Because they saw me already share it, and so then the convers- it, it becomes, or- Or they listened to this podcast- Or it's like,"Oh, I, I heard you tell that story" so they're all caught up And then you feel like you can't tell it again, or you know.
• 1:07:29
  So there's weird disconnects that happen Yeah And- Well, and a- another comment that I, was really insightful that my friend Jess, who I've never met in real life, but she's a, a marketing executive at Nespresso, she shared and I'm like,"Yes, that too," there's a stigma, and I deal with this at work too, around the value of social content creation.
• 1:07:48
  There's an assumption that it's all quick, dirty, and cheap, and that by doing online you're simply doing something that is easy and- Right is not a, um- And quick.
• 1:07:59
  Yeah respectable use of your time Yes So there's this judgment that also comes when people do lean into sharing their own life that that's not how we should be spending our time.
• 1:08:07
  No one would question that if it was you learning how to play mahjong, mahjong- Yeah I don't know how to say it.
• 1:08:11
  Um, but I just watched your podcast episode- Yeah so now I'm gonna learn.
• 1:08:14
  I didn't even know there was an American kind- Yeah.
• 1:08:16
  It's so fun so thank you for helping me I'll teach you but there's this stigma that, of- I said, I just said this at work today.
• 1:08:23
  I said, it's the most fascinating thing about what I do for a living and what I do personally is that there has been no question that social media and influencer is a hallmark cornerstone of modern culture.
• 1:08:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:36
  No one will question you on that.
• 1:08:37
  Right.
• 1:08:38
  But at the same time, it is one of the hardest things to help build comprehension of what actually goes into it- Of what you actually do and its monetary value.
• 1:08:46
  For sure.
• 1:08:47
  And its validity as an interest because everyone can use it.
• 1:08:51
  It's the only thing like that, right?
• 1:08:53
  And really anyone can do it.
• 1:08:55
  That's right.
• 1:08:56
  So there's this assumption, oh, you're choosing to be online and speak to the camera, but you have 583 unread texts.
• 1:09:03
  Like, it's not acceptable that you're choosing this as your you time.
• 1:09:06
  I have felt that sort of pressure for sure.
• 1:09:09
  I'm a notorious bad texter.
• 1:09:11
  I'm a notorious bad emailer.
• 1:09:14
  Me too.
• 1:09:14
  And I'm a notoriously bad, like, calling somebody back sometimes because of confinements of, like, I have a workday, I have help with the kids.
• 1:09:23
  It gets very tricky, and it gets very gray when someone sees you online all of the time, but you're not texting them back.
• 1:09:32
  100%.
• 1:09:32
  And it's like, well, this is my job, right?
• 1:09:35
  I saw you comment on someone's post, and I feel like I've just gotten more comfortable saying, like, even for me as a mom and a woman, it, like, helps me.
• 1:09:43
  Sharing that story, it's, it is partially s- I guess in my case, almost entirely selfish that I'm sharing it all.
• 1:09:49
  Me sharing that story about having lost real-life friends, and when I say real-life friends, like, the majority of these were, like, multiple, one of them were in my wedding, guys.
• 1:09:58
  Like, these are really, like, family-level friends- Mm-hmm that this has happened with.
• 1:10:02
  Like, that is deeply- Did any of them respond to you?
• 1:10:04
  No.
• 1:10:05
  They didn't, like, pick up what you're putting down?
• 1:10:06
  No, no, and I did say, to be fair, like- Yeah I, I, I made it clear that I didn't have that expectation.
• 1:10:10
  Yeah, no, right.
• 1:10:11
  I don't think you can share a story like that until you're at the point where I'm like,"I don't need, I don't really want you back." I'm just more c- Like- I guess I'm more curious and interested- Yes, but funny enough- if anybody was- I did have a situation right after sharing that in which there's a chance I might run into someone that is one of these individuals- Yeah and I reached out- You're like,"Oh." to say- Yeah"Hey, just wanted to give you a heads-up.
• 1:10:30
  There's a chance I, it's not, wasn't my doing, but I may be in a place that you're in, and I didn't want you to think that I was intentionally not saying hello to you.
• 1:10:38
  I hope that if I see you, I can give you a hug." I didn't hear back.
• 1:10:41
  I don't think that I will.
• 1:10:42
  Right.
• 1:10:42
  But at this point in my life, like, that's what I know I will, I want to do.
• 1:10:46
  If I see that person, I want to give them a hug.
• 1:10:48
  They don't have to want that, but, so I can move on with my life knowing that, like, they know my intention.
• 1:10:53
  I can keep going.
• 1:10:54
  But an aspect of sharing my life online that is also undervalued is, like, the clarity that I got from others in the community also- Mm-hmm was, like, highly beneficial to, to me.
• 1:11:04
  That really helped me, like, frame my thoughts in a way to say,"Okay, you're not..." I think people say a lot of the time, like,"You're not alone." Like, it's, it's deeper than that.
• 1:11:13
  It's more of like- Okay, you can, like, package this now and process it, and acknowledge that it's a real thing, and there's all these different variants of it.
• 1:11:22
  And there...
• 1:11:23
  What I'm reading is that it's not in my control, whether I wish it were or not, and I can, I can be at peace with that.
• 1:11:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:30
  I mean, I don't understand it, but I can be at peace with that.
• 1:11:33
  And I feel like that alone to me, if my friend tells me that there's something they're doing for fun that is giving them that sense of peace, like, as a mo- Like, go for it.
• 1:11:43
  What can I do to help you, you know?
• 1:11:44
  And I just think it's unfortunate that social n- never is really kind of given that permission to be- Yeah a positive resource.
• 1:11:50
  Because it's either a hobby or it is actually someone's livelihood.
• 1:11:53
  That's right.
• 1:11:53
  So either way, it's like filling some sort of cup.
• 1:11:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:56
  You know, so to not feel supported, and I think that that word was probably the word that was confusing to some people- Yes of like, what do you mean by support?
• 1:12:04
  You mean like I have to like all of your stuff or share all of your stuff?
• 1:12:08
  And it's not that.
• 1:12:09
  It's just feeling just supported like you would with anything else.
• 1:12:12
  It's like trusting- Any other job me as your friend- Right like you always have.
• 1:12:15
  Right.
• 1:12:16
  That, Like, how did you decide to stop liking me based...
• 1:12:19
  Like, that's crazy to me.
• 1:12:20
  Based off of- Just online online.
• 1:12:22
  Yeah, so I think that's been, that definitely has been an interesting journey.
• 1:12:25
  And then I'm sure a lot of other people have likened you more because of this extra side that they get to see online.
• 1:12:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:33
  Yeah.
• 1:12:33
  That, that's true.
• 1:12:33
  There's that too.
• 1:12:34
  That's a very weird thing- You know?
• 1:12:35
  where you feel- I guess like, with online, there's a sense of community that can really be built, and some of the friendships go from online to real-life friendships.
• 1:12:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:12:44
  And at the same time, it can disconnect you from people in your real life.
• 1:12:48
  100%.
• 1:12:48
  It's, it's crazy.
• 1:12:49
  It goes both ways.
• 1:12:50
  Like I said, I got my first job in New York.
• 1:12:51
  Yep.
• 1:12:52
  Technically my...
• 1:12:52
  I posted, um, maybe it was on my subscriber feed, so I don't know if I posted it publicly, but I had posted this story that, like, one of the OG window designers behind some of, like, the best windows you've ever seen at department stores in New York, and, like, huge brands.
• 1:13:04
  And she was sharing, um, the trust that a mentor had had in her.
• 1:13:08
  I forget what, I wanna say maybe it was Zach Posen, but a designer had had in her that said,"You're gonna do this job." And she was like,"I have no idea what I'm doing." And he said,"I'm gonna provide the things that I know you're gonna need to be successful, and then you're gonna do it because I know you can." And he literally supported her, and now she's obviously, like, standalone super successful.
• 1:13:27
  And I think I posted in my subscriber feed, like, and again, this isn't me, like, getting too deep, it's just reality.
• 1:13:32
  But I was like,"I don't know that I feel that I've ever had someone believe that deeply in me." Like, that support, level of support.
• 1:13:38
  Like, and honestly, it didn't really bother me, me, me.
• 1:13:41
  It more so moti- motivated me to be that for someone else, that I was like, oh my God, that would be like...
• 1:13:45
  Like, two people on my team at my current role came to work with me for a second time, and I'm like, life achievement unlocked.
• 1:13:53
  Like, that is the greatest accomplishment to me, is that I can be a positive- leader to people that see value and, and feel that they can be successful.
• 1:14:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:05
  It- that's, like, the biggest compliment.
• 1:14:06
  So it wasn't me being like,"Wah, nobody supports me." But then I realized, and I reached out to my friend, Casey.
• 1:14:12
  I texted her, and I was like,"Oh my God, Casey, I'm wrong.
• 1:14:15
  Like, you were that person.
• 1:14:17
  You believed in me.
• 1:14:17
  We met on Tumblr.
• 1:14:19
  We'd met in real life, like, three times.
• 1:14:21
  You put your name on the line, your professional career, from a girl from Connecticut that knew no one in fashion, that was working at a small agency working on banks and liquor brands, and said,'My friend is the right one for the job.' And you fully, unapologetically supported me, and I moved to freaking New York to...
• 1:14:37
  and took my dream job because you put yourself on the line." She's, and she's taken a, a decent career break now, and she's actually pivoting into a, a new career now.
• 1:14:46
  And this entire time while she's been home, like, she is that friend that anytime I get a new job- Mm-hmm takes the time to, like, text me- Mm-hmm this massive text message.
• 1:14:54
  She lives in 30A now that used to live in London.
• 1:14:56
  Like, we have not geographically lived in the same place for over 10 years, and she's that friend.
• 1:15:02
  And it was such a good reminder to me that it's like, it may not look like that.
• 1:15:06
  It may not be Zac Posen or something formal, but, like, if I can be that person, even just as a talking head online that says, like- Right"Why the heck is school canceled?
• 1:15:15
  Like, my kid can sweat in an auditorium, and you cannot feel mom guilt about you're also feeling okay about your kid sweating in the gym?" Right.
• 1:15:22
  Then It brings me great joy- Mm-hmm to, to think of that, of being any minute a little tiny part of what that friend now is to me, and she doesn't share her life online anymore at all, and we met on Tumblr.
• 1:15:34
  So if you are new to following us,'cause I'm sure we're gonna have a lot of newbie followers listening in on the Pretty in Pink Again podcast.
• 1:15:41
  We close our episodes with our Pink Spotlight, so T and I share a little tip, thing, mantra, anything that's making our life a little bit better this week.
• 1:15:51
  And then our guest kind of has the floor, right?
• 1:15:53
  But what do you, do you have anything for me this week, T?
• 1:15:55
  You kick us off.
• 1:15:56
  I need a second to think.
• 1:15:58
  Oh.
• 1:15:58
  I'm gonna look in my shot right now.
• 1:15:58
  Okay, so we talked about this last week on our episode with Jamie, but I took a nail break.
• 1:16:05
  I'm taking one right now.
• 1:16:06
  Are you?
• 1:16:07
  Oh, it feels s- Guys, I don't know what was going on.
• 1:16:09
  I literally, for the first time, I was feeling, like, claustrophobic'cause I would have hard gel or dip on my nails- And then you can't get it off and I don't know what happened.
• 1:16:18
  I must have been having, like, anxiety, right?
• 1:16:19
  But, like, I'm like,"Oh my God, I can't get this off my nails," and it's like I, my nails can't breathe.
• 1:16:24
  I was feeling, like, extremely claustrophobic.
• 1:16:26
  And I was also just getting- Feels like when you're wearing a turtleneck that's too tight yes, it felt like I was in clothing that was too tight, and I couldn't get out of it.
• 1:16:32
  And I also was just, like, so sick of spending- Of just sitting there of just sitting there.
• 1:16:37
  Like, talk about this whole time we've been talking about being productive and, like- Yeah talk about the least productive- I can't do it you can ever be in your life is sitting with both of your hands tied up.
• 1:16:48
  That and blow-drying your hair.
• 1:16:49
  Yeah, but at least blow-drying your hair...
• 1:16:51
  Oh, if you're actually blow-drying your hair.
• 1:16:52
  Yeah, if you're blow-drying your hair yourself.
• 1:16:53
  If you're blow-drying your hair or you're doing your nails- I can't stand doing my hair you can't do anything else, and I need to multitask right now.
• 1:16:59
  Like, that's just the life I'm in.
• 1:17:00
  So I was like,"I'm gonna take a nail break," but I did.
• 1:17:03
  So my nails are bare, like, completely.
• 1:17:06
  She's looking at me disgust- I kind of like it.
• 1:17:08
  No, I was looking at you with- Oh, this is...
• 1:17:10
  Do you follow that, like, Cool Moms account?
• 1:17:12
  Like, this is what the cool moms in New York are doing right now.
• 1:17:14
  This is, this is clean nails, right?
• 1:17:14
  Yeah, clean nails.
• 1:17:14
  Clean girl- Ring stacking clean girl nails.
• 1:17:16
  Yeah.
• 1:17:16
  That's incredibly chic.
• 1:17:17
  We're gonna just roll with it as a trend.
• 1:17:20
  I'm, I'm uncool.
• 1:17:20
  I'm uncool.
• 1:17:20
  Instead of my hands feeling like they're a man's- No, I like it because that's how I feel.
• 1:17:24
  I think they actually look really pretty.
• 1:17:25
  But, well- I'm looking at you with admiration because I ended up getting this, like a repair serum that I put on.
• 1:17:31
  It's kind of like a daily polish.
• 1:17:33
  So you put it on every day or every other day, and then e- every week you can use nail polish remover and take it off, but it's supposed to, like, strengthen your nails.
• 1:17:40
  What is it?
• 1:17:41
  And I've had it- It's by Nails Inc.
• 1:17:43
  I forget what it's called.
• 1:17:44
  I'll link it in our show notes, but it's basically like a repair- nail polish.
• 1:17:48
  So it has, it's a brush.
• 1:17:50
  That's what makes my nails look so white right now,'cause they actually don't look hideous.
• 1:17:53
  They're white.
• 1:17:54
  You can actually see the white tips.
• 1:17:56
  Yeah.
• 1:17:56
  It helps them grow.
• 1:17:57
  I can actually, like, press and they feel hard.
• 1:17:59
  I need to try this.
• 1:18:00
  So they're not brittle.
• 1:18:01
  And this is the only way I'm gonna get away with doing this all summer long is if they look like this.
• 1:18:05
  But I'm, like, going polish-free.
• 1:18:06
  Like, I'm not even doing any sort of polish.
• 1:18:08
  I'm gonna just rock the no nails, and I hate looking down, but that's why I have all my rings.
• 1:18:14
  But yeah- I actually think- this has been helping a lot I think it looks really pretty.
• 1:18:17
  I like it.
• 1:18:18
  It feels so- Good for you I can't explain- It feels so good it feels so good to have them off.
• 1:18:22
  I can't open packages or anything.
• 1:18:24
  Like, that's driving me crazy.
• 1:18:25
  But the not having to, like, mentally be like,"Oh, in two weeks I have to go back for the nail appointment." Mm.
• 1:18:32
  Like, how am I gonna factor that into my schedule?
• 1:18:33
  It makes me so pa- and I don't like when they don't look good.
• 1:18:35
  That would make, it would drive me crazy.
• 1:18:36
  Yeah.
• 1:18:36
  'Cause then you're like, my nails are grown out.
• 1:18:38
  Sometimes they start lifting.
• 1:18:39
  I feel so understood in this moment.
• 1:18:40
  Like, you know when you put your hands through your hair?
• 1:18:41
  I've been having, I've been in this exact same life phase.
• 1:18:42
  I feel so understood.
• 1:18:44
  And we're both here with our bare nails.
• 1:18:45
  Yeah.
• 1:18:45
  Look at us doing it.
• 1:18:46
  Just living life with our bare nails.
• 1:18:48
  I was supposed to go yesterday, and each time I'm supposed to go I'm like,"You know what, I'm gonna keep going." I guess that's what happens when you turn 40.
• 1:18:52
  I know.
• 1:18:53
  I feel oh my God.
• 1:18:53
  The circle becomes closer- The greatest gift smaller- Right and the nails become bare.
• 1:18:53
  Yeah.
• 1:18:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:57
  I like it.
• 1:18:57
  What about you, T?
• 1:18:58
  Okay, so I like a nice clean house.
• 1:19:00
  Mm.
• 1:19:01
  Me too.
• 1:19:01
  I like, like, a nice tidy house.
• 1:19:03
  I, I just, I feel, happier when my house is clean, but I also like happy kids, and I'm finding that I can't have both.
• 1:19:10
  I can't have happy kids and a happy clean house.
• 1:19:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:13
  So I have decided that I'm going to let the kids be happy, have friends over, make a little bit of a mess, and I'm not going to freak out and scream at them while the messes are being made.
• 1:19:23
  They will pick up after it.
• 1:19:25
  So I implemented a rule that the pool's closed unless they clean up, and I said it in a very nice way, not in a screaming mom, mom nag- nagging way.
• 1:19:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:33
  And this morning they cleaned up without being asked for the first time in seven years of owning this pool.
• 1:19:38
  Oh, I like that, like, something's closed until- Yeah, pool is closed until- Right the pool deck no longer looks like a frat house.
• 1:19:44
  Right.
• 1:19:45
  And they did it.
• 1:19:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:46
  And I think I'm gonna be okay with it.
• 1:19:47
  My mom came over last night, and the kids all had friends over, and she's like,"It's kind of messy in here." And I was like,"I know, right?
• 1:19:52
  Like, and I'm not on the ground having a panic attack.
• 1:19:55
  It'll be okay." Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:56
  So it's just a freeing mindset.
• 1:19:58
  Yeah, like how you took the nails off and you're- Yeah okay with it.
• 1:20:01
  Yeah.
• 1:20:01
  I am okay with it.
• 1:20:02
  Yeah.
• 1:20:02
  It's gonna be okay.
• 1:20:03
  Wow.
• 1:20:03
  So freeing.
• 1:20:04
  Because I can't do both right now.
• 1:20:05
  No.
• 1:20:06
  Summer's only gonna be eight weeks long or however long they're home for.
• 1:20:08
  I have to be okay with the house being a little messier- Yep and there being no food f- for just a couple of weeks.
• 1:20:14
  It'll be okay.
• 1:20:14
  Yeah.
• 1:20:14
  We'll survive.
• 1:20:15
  No, I love that.
• 1:20:16
  Love that.
• 1:20:16
  So that is my mindset- Good mindset for the summer.
• 1:20:18
  Good mindset.
• 1:20:18
  Okay.
• 1:20:19
  So.
• 1:20:20
  What about you, Meg?
• 1:20:21
  I love that.
• 1:20:21
  I feel like I have, like, three things.
• 1:20:22
  I'm having a hard time, like, choosing between the three.
• 1:20:23
  Share the bong.
• 1:20:24
  You can share the bong.
• 1:20:25
  Two of them are household products similarly.
• 1:20:26
  Tell us.
• 1:20:28
  This is like one of those videos I made a year ago and I never posted it, and I'm like,"Shucks, I should have posted that,"'cause I was so passionate.
• 1:20:34
  I don't know- Shu- post it now.
• 1:20:35
  Maybe it'll be a trend.
• 1:20:36
  Yeah, maybe it will.
• 1:20:37
  Like- Make it a trend find it in my drafts.
• 1:20:38
  It's really bad.
• 1:20:39
  Find it in my drafts.
• 1:20:40
  It's like the three pro- it was like the three products that I like are not sexy that like- Yeah, yeah literally have changed my life.
• 1:20:47
  Yeah.
• 1:20:48
  And anyone that I've like shared the sentiment with maybe were just unevolved sloths, but like they were in the same place as me, and they also have had this transformative experience.
• 1:20:58
  Tell us We bought brooms.
• 1:21:01
  Oh.
• 1:21:01
  Like, a regular- Like old school sweeper broom with a dustpan.
• 1:21:04
  Yeah.
• 1:21:05
  Oh, I love a dustpan.
• 1:21:05
  I don't know what happened where brooms just disappeared- and we all- It's all the technology.
• 1:21:09
  Because we all bought Dysons.
• 1:21:10
  We bought Dysons.
• 1:21:10
  'Cause we were too- They're- lazy to bend it over- You cannot- bend over and- sleep on a broom.
• 1:21:15
  It is a different experience.
• 1:21:17
  You sweep and then you vacuum.
• 1:21:19
  Right.
• 1:21:19
  Sand.
• 1:21:20
  Right.
• 1:21:21
  Crumbs, like, slightly wet things.
• 1:21:23
  A broom has literally changed my life.
• 1:21:25
  It's literally so ugly.
• 1:21:26
  It's green.
• 1:21:27
  I love that.
• 1:21:27
  It's from the hardware store.
• 1:21:28
  There should be a series for you.
• 1:21:29
  My coworker was like,"I've bought a broom, and it has changed my life." Have you bought a- I'm like,"I don't know when I didn't have a broom." Did you buy a garage broom yet?
• 1:21:35
  We have a garage broom.
• 1:21:36
  I feel like that's more like- Yeah.
• 1:21:37
  Yes I've kept with that.
• 1:21:38
  It's like you own a home and you get a broom.
• 1:21:40
  For sure.
• 1:21:40
  I feel like the broom dropped off after college.
• 1:21:43
  Like, I feel like I had a broom in my college apartment.
• 1:21:45
  Yes.
• 1:21:45
  Yes.
• 1:21:45
  Right.
• 1:21:45
  And that was, like, normal.
• 1:21:46
  You had a broom and a vacuum or, like, a mop.
• 1:21:48
  'Cause it was silent.
• 1:21:48
  You weren't allowed- And now it's, like, all in one.
• 1:21:49
  You only need...
• 1:21:50
  And then I'm like, my floors just never felt fully clean, and like you, I can't stand walking around on my floors and having things stick to them.
• 1:21:57
  But, uh, so that's one.
• 1:21:58
  The other one I would say- I love this is, like, just do yourself a solid, buy yourself a broom.
• 1:22:02
  Um, a second one I would say are these indoor-outdoor doormats called Port Hall- I was like Instagram served ads for a long time, and I, like, never really went for it, but I also never could really solve for the area in front of my front door inside the house.
• 1:22:18
  Okay, so like an entryway into the house?
• 1:22:20
  Yeah.
• 1:22:20
  It- Okay I don't want a runner.
• 1:22:21
  Okay.
• 1:22:21
  Right.
• 1:22:22
  It's, I need something wider.
• 1:22:23
  I want something like sisal.
• 1:22:25
  I used to say Cecil, by the way.
• 1:22:26
  Apparently, that's wrong.
• 1:22:27
  It's sisal.
• 1:22:28
  Okay.
• 1:22:28
  Sisal.
• 1:22:28
  But anything sisal was not durable.
• 1:22:31
  It also, like, traps everything.
• 1:22:32
  It traps everything- Yeah and then you lift it up and it slides- Yeah all around the floor.
• 1:22:34
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:22:35
  And I didn't wanna put a regular rug because I have a stair runner But I have, like, older, like, WaterHog mats from LL Bean, but they're not pretty.
• 1:22:45
  We don't really use our front door, but people do come in.
• 1:22:47
  We have salt in New England, but this company, My favorite brands are the brands that, like, say what they do and then they do what they say.
• 1:22:52
  Right.
• 1:22:53
  This is, like, one of those products.
• 1:22:54
  Like- Ooh they're great.
• 1:22:55
  I have two.
• 1:22:56
  They're not super inexpensive, but, like, I've had it now for an entire New England winter and now this, like, wet muddy season.
• 1:23:03
  It looks beautiful.
• 1:23:04
  It looks like a sisal rug.
• 1:23:05
  I don't even know what it's made out of.
• 1:23:06
  Um- But it's, like, durable?
• 1:23:08
  And it's a great size.
• 1:23:08
  Wow.
• 1:23:08
  It's, like, a two and a half by five, something, like, kind of random.
• 1:23:11
  So that- So do you have it by the front door or the mudroom door?
• 1:23:13
  Now I have both.
• 1:23:14
  Like, both?
• 1:23:14
  Now I have one by the front door that's, like, larger- Maybe in the little...
• 1:23:16
  Should have been by the back door and kind of, like, fills the entryway, and then one by my back door.
• 1:23:19
  It's, like, noticeable enough that my husband was like,"We need another one of these.
• 1:23:22
  Like, this is a great rug." Ooh.
• 1:23:23
  Like, he's, like, a conscious person, but not super, like, Rug, loyal, right?
• 1:23:28
  Or any of us.
• 1:23:29
  Um- No, mine's from Costco right now, and it has yogurt on it- and it's disgusting, and it needs to be thrown in the garbage, but- That's right neither me or my husband are going to make an effort to- replace it.
• 1:23:39
  That's right.
• 1:23:40
  And then- Because it's like, ah, it's, but it's like the mu- but it's like a rug.
• 1:23:42
  Like, what am I- I also hate, or like things I've realized I don't love as I grow into myself, I don't love an outside doormat.
• 1:23:49
  Like, the ones with your initial or something.
• 1:23:50
  Well, they don't, like, do anything.
• 1:23:51
  And then they get very bloated with water.
• 1:23:53
  They do.
• 1:23:53
  They get super heavy.
• 1:23:54
  They- Yep tr- tur- they shed- They shed a lot of the time.
• 1:23:56
  They just look- Mm crummy really quickly.
• 1:23:58
  Yeah.
• 1:23:58
  And they're not cheap either.
• 1:23:59
  Right.
• 1:23:59
  Now that I have this indoor solution- Wow I've had no front doormat, and it's been fine.
• 1:24:04
  And you don't need one.
• 1:24:05
  And you don't need it.
• 1:24:05
  And I don't need it.
• 1:24:06
  Oh, wow.
• 1:24:07
  Yeah.
• 1:24:07
  Okay.
• 1:24:08
  So, again- And what's the third wow?
• 1:24:09
  Super neat.
• 1:24:09
  The last one, which is super random, I did talk about this when I shared my recent trip to a design bazaar, is I'm currently obsessed with, and more to come on this, but I'm percolating on this, like, idea of modern heirlooms.
• 1:24:20
  Like, I feel like- Mm we're in this weird juxtaposition as a generation in a society where no one wants to inherit their grandmother's china or their g- big grandparents' house full of junk.
• 1:24:30
  I mean, our grandparents furnished a house once, it was done for life, you moved on.
• 1:24:34
  But nobody uses china.
• 1:24:35
  Nobody wants a cabinet full of stuff they don't use, so it's all ending up in, landfills.
• 1:24:38
  At the same time, this generation is obsessed with vintage and thrifting.
• 1:24:42
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:42
  So I'm like, what are these products that I can start to think of that I bring into my home that my children will have native memories around?
• 1:24:50
  Like, for me, it's my my bread box.
• 1:24:52
  Like, I love my bread box.
• 1:24:53
  And I'm like, there's no way my kids won't remember this bread box.
• 1:24:56
  It's like essentially everyone wants to inherit their grandmother's sauce pot, not their china set.
• 1:25:01
  And now I'm focused on, finding what elements of my home I can, really be thoughtful of.
• 1:25:06
  So you're, are you thinking that, like- I love that as you're buying pieces- Yeah and stuff, like what would my kids want- Yeah to inherit from me?
• 1:25:11
  It's like, what, what am I, like, it's like- Yeah.
• 1:25:12
  Have you inherited anything from your grandparents that you were like,"Oh, I love this piece"?
• 1:25:17
  No, and I think part of this is also, again, I'm a military kid.
• 1:25:20
  I have very little- Mm connection to m- material things, but I love...
• 1:25:23
  I'm a creative.
• 1:25:24
  Yeah.
• 1:25:24
  I love beautiful spaces.
• 1:25:25
  I love spaces that feel intentional and unique and, I'm obsessed with taste and point of view right now- Mm-hmm because of AI and everything.
• 1:25:32
  So longest story ever short, when I was recently in Palm Beach, I had this martini at this restaurant that was the most iconic martini I've ever had in my life.
• 1:25:41
  They freeze olives in olive juice in the martini glass.
• 1:25:45
  The glass is frozen.
• 1:25:46
  They then bring a silver, now I know what this is, they bring frozen vodka over in this super- with a white glove on, which, like, that's extra.
• 1:25:55
  Oh.
• 1:25:55
  They bring the vodka over in, frozen vodka, in this, like, metal basket that's, like, the bottle's at an angle, and then they pour the frozen vodka over the frozen olives.
• 1:26:04
  Oh.
• 1:26:04
  And it, this martini stayed cold the entire dinner, and I only had one, which probably is what I should always do.
• 1:26:10
  But, like, it was ice-cold.
• 1:26:12
  It was delicious.
• 1:26:13
  And I was like,"What was this weird basket?" I've now discovered it is a vintage French wine basket.
• 1:26:19
  You can find them.
• 1:26:19
  I can send you my friend that ha- I, I just sourced one from that she, like, has a collection of these.
• 1:26:24
  It's a thing.
• 1:26:25
  I think it's gonna be- Wow a thing.
• 1:26:27
  But it's literally a beautiful vintage silver basket at an angle.
• 1:26:30
  You slide the wine bottle in it.
• 1:26:32
  Um, I'll use it for vodka.
• 1:26:33
  And, like, the l- little additive layer of chic to be pouring wine out of a beautiful- Ooh basket, I'm like,"What a beautiful, like- You should get your white glove- little special moment." to go with it.
• 1:26:43
  I know.
• 1:26:43
  Yeah.
• 1:26:43
  Do you need the white glove because it's so cold?
• 1:26:45
  Like, is the basket cold?
• 1:26:46
  No, no, that was, that was fancy.
• 1:26:47
  That was just fancy.
• 1:26:47
  Oh, that was just fancy part?
• 1:26:48
  But I'm like, I wanna use it for, like, dinner with pizza.
• 1:26:50
  Yeah.
• 1:26:50
  Like, I'm all about, like- Yeah these usable things, and I just feel like it's like- And that could be something that your kids get because they'll remember mom pouring that.
• 1:26:58
  Yes,'cause- Yeah.
• 1:26:58
  Oh, I love it.
• 1:26:58
  And it's one basket that you could, that- Yes it's, you know, portable and special, and it's, it's mine, and it's, it was someone else's.
• 1:27:03
  I love that you're thinking like that.
• 1:27:05
  I know.
• 1:27:05
  That's a really great mindset.
• 1:27:06
  I have two gifts from my grandmother that she g- gave, passed to me, and one is a clock that I have in the house- Mm-hmm that sings.
• 1:27:12
  Oh, I love that clock for you.
• 1:27:13
  And it sings, like, on the half hour and on the hour.
• 1:27:14
  I love that.
• 1:27:15
  And the sound of the clock reminds me of her because I remember going to her house and hearing it, and it's very s- it's, like, a simple thing, like- It's those little things to buy a clock- Mm that has a signature sound or something, you know?
• 1:27:25
  And my grandparents- I love that had the same sound.
• 1:27:27
  And so when I'm here, I get the same feeling.
• 1:27:30
  And you, and you think of them.
• 1:27:30
  Yep.
• 1:27:30
  So stay tuned because- Yeah, I love that I may be working on a brand in the background- that maybe we'll start creating- Ooh and, like, actually producing- Like curating some of these, like- Oh both, like- Ah curating collections of- Yep certain key items- But creating but also one at a time intentionally.
• 1:27:44
  That's exciting developing and sourcing unique individual versions of, like, the best version of something- That's really cool that is, like, really based on this idea of the modern heirloom.
• 1:27:53
  Um- You are, you really are doing it all, even though you think you're not doing it all.
• 1:27:58
  I'm not doing it all.
• 1:27:58
  None of us feel like we're doing it all, but- But you're exploring all your- we're all doing the most.
• 1:28:01
  You're exploring all your different creative outlet- Yeah looks, and you're monetizing some of them.
• 1:28:05
  I just wanna live, I wanna live my whole life.
• 1:28:07
  Yeah.
• 1:28:07
  Like, all the way full.
• 1:28:08
  I love that.
• 1:28:10
  And that's exhausting, but it's also, like, fulfilling.
• 1:28:10
  But that's living.
• 1:28:11
  Yeah.
• 1:28:11
  That's living, you know?
• 1:28:13
  This has been such a great conversation.
• 1:28:14
  And you have a privilege to do so right now, so.
• 1:28:15
  I'm so happy we were able to get this on the calendar and talk, and this has been, I think, everything that we were envisioning and more talking to you.
• 1:28:23
  I do feel like one important note that we should share as we're talking about, like, womanhood and friendships, and, like- I think it's also not often that you see the true realities of women that genuinely feel this way about one another.
• 1:28:37
  And, like, we have known each other for 20 years I know We haven't stayed in immediate direct connection.
• 1:28:41
  I've loved watching you grow and thrive.
• 1:28:43
  We met once and connected over- my autoimmune illness.
• 1:28:47
  And when- I remember I texted you the name of my doctor.
• 1:28:50
  Yeah, because your skin is- The pelvic floor doctor that's like a whole other episode for me.
• 1:28:53
  Well, no, but I gave- I was like,"Oh, my God, I'm going on the podcast of this woman I know that has the best skin I've ever seen." No, but didn't...
• 1:28:56
  I feel like I also gave you the number of my pelvic floor doctor too, didn't I?
• 1:29:00
  Yes, but the skin-'Cause weren't we talking about that?
• 1:29:02
  one was the one I was really excited about We talked about skin too.
• 1:29:03
  Yeah.
• 1:29:03
  That's right.
• 1:29:04
  That was maybe my obsession.
• 1:29:05
  But I feel like- I like to share.
• 1:29:06
  You are like that.
• 1:29:07
  I'm like- As we met at a birthday party and you went- As we met at a birthday, yeah"You have twins?
• 1:29:10
  Me too." Yes.
• 1:29:12
  And I just feel like I'm very grateful for you for having me, because I feel like it's also rare that, like, I'm so glad that you felt comfortable, like, reaching out to me.
• 1:29:20
  Yes, of course.
• 1:29:20
  And that, like, even after all these years passed- Yes I'm, like, so delighted to catch up with you.
• 1:29:24
  I know.
• 1:29:24
  And I feel like I just- I know would love, I would love to see- to- To keep that going to keep that going with women.
• 1:29:30
  I know, babe.
• 1:29:30
  That it's like,"Don't be scared.
• 1:29:31
  Reach out to someone that you've- I know knew 15 years ago.
• 1:29:34
  They're probably really- We- excited to hear from you." Like- We've been doing that, and it's honestly- Yeah incredible.
• 1:29:38
  And we've also said that,'cause we've had se- several of, like, T's old classmates on from high school that have gone on to do, like, tremendous things.
• 1:29:47
  And we're like, we cannot believe that sometimes when you, like, get out of your own ass, right?
• 1:29:54
  Yes.
• 1:29:54
  Like, you're like- Yes and you look around at who's around you in your immediate network, the incredible things- And maybe even not so immediate, even Right.
• 1:30:01
  Right.
• 1:30:02
  Yeah.
• 1:30:02
  Just, like, right, right.
• 1:30:03
  Like, extended immediate network It's that fear.
• 1:30:05
  A little fear is always good.
• 1:30:05
  How many p- wonderful, amazing people are around you.
• 1:30:10
  Yeah.
• 1:30:10
  And I think that's one of my favorite parts about starting this podcast, is, like, being able to talk to some of those people, meeting new people, and then hearing everybody's stories along with it.
• 1:30:20
  So it's just- Yeah been incredible.
• 1:30:21
  We're so happy that you were able to make the time.
• 1:30:23
  We, we know you're a busy gal.
• 1:30:24
  That's all right.
• 1:30:24
  So it's been so nice.
• 1:30:26
  Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:30:26
  It's truly a treat.
• 1:30:27
  We love you.
• 1:30:28
  We could, we could yap all day.
• 1:30:29
  But can- We are all OG yappers, I think.
• 1:30:30
  Yes.
• 1:30:30
  We are.
• 1:30:31
  Based on how we met.
• 1:30:32
  It's our profession.
• 1:30:33
  I can't stop.
• 1:30:34
  I can't stop.
• 1:30:35
  Is it almost dinner time?
• 1:30:36
  Yes.
• 1:30:37
  Can we have a drink now?
• 1:30:38
  Yeah.
• 1:30:38
  Can we go?
• 1:30:38
  Let's go.
• 1:30:38
  Let's drink.
• 1:30:38
  100%.
• 1:30:38
  I maybe should have had her bring the martini thing.
• 1:30:42
  Don't threaten me with a good time.
• 1:30:43
  Well, thank you, guys.
• 1:30:44
  Okay.
• 1:30:44
  And if you are new to listening to us and you loved what you heard, you can rate, review, and subscribe to the Pretty and Pink Again podcast.
• 1:30:51
  We're so happy to have you listen in.
• 1:30:53
  And you can follow us over on Instagram.
• 1:30:55
  And then Meg Hall is@meghall on Instagram.
• 1:30:58
  And anywhere else we can find you?
• 1:31:01
  I think that's- No, that's, that's the best spot That's the one.
• 1:31:02
  Yeah.
• 1:31:03
  That's the one.
• 1:31:04
  So thank you, guys, so much.
• 1:31:05
  We will see you next week.
• 1:31:07
  Bye.
• 1:31:08
  Thanks for having me.