Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Celebrating Lent | Guest Tsh Oxenreider Enneagram 4

Transcript

Celebrating Lent | Guest Tsh Oxenreider Enneagram 4 · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_02: Hi, I'm Amy Wicks, a Jesus and Enneagram enthusiast.
0:07
SPEAKER_02: As a wife, mama of three humans, and a fur baby, I get it.
0:12
SPEAKER_02: Juggling entrepreneurship in a family is challenging, but I believe the Lord does want your work to be enjoyable.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: As an Enneagram Type 7, I am all about the fun factor.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: And this podcast is here to help you put the joy back into working mom life.
0:29
SPEAKER_02: So you can see 1 Timothy 6.17 come to pass in your own unique time.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: It's a verse that says that God has given us all things to enjoy.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: All?
0:40
SPEAKER_02: Well, friends, it means all.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: Motherhood, work from home life, or work out of the home life.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: With the Lord's help, there's truly a way to feel calm, balance, joy, clarity, and peace in any arena of life.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast, where you can expect solo style and interview style episodes that are full of faith-based concepts, simple ideas, Enneagram insights, alongside practical tips to help you put that smile back on your face when it comes to doing life with Jesus.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: Now get your headphones and head to that big pile of dishes in the sink, or maybe that bathroom that needed cleaning two weeks ago.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: And let's get to learning together.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: Maybe things like Advent or the Church calendar are familiar terms to you.
1:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, for me, they really weren't.
1:44
SPEAKER_02: It's really just been in the last decade or so that I've begun to practice rhythms associated with the church calendar.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: And Lint has been one of those.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: It's been something that I've been very curious about and have implemented in my life, not every year, but here and there.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: So I thought it would be really great to kick off the Lint season with a guest who has recently written a new book that is focused and all about Lint.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: You may have met or heard of Tish Oxenrider before because she has been in this online teaching book space for 15 years.
2:20
SPEAKER_02: She would describe herself as a writer, podcaster, nerd, nomadic homebody, and Catholic.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: And guess what?
2:28
SPEAKER_02: She is also an Enneagram 4.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: And an Enneagram 4 wing five, to be exact.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: I realize we've had a lot of Enneagram 4s lately, and I don't know why, but I am loving it.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: I do appreciate how Tish describes herself or what she says here on her website.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: She says, in a world that celebrates indulging our whims whenever we want, practicing the traditions of Lint feels countercultural.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: The practice of Lint isn't about proving our worth or earning God's love.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: It's about remembering how dependent we are on our Maker.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: So good and beautifully said.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: I know that we've talked here on the podcast before that sometimes the whole Easter celebration gets overlooked with the busyness and maybe it's under celebrated.
3:19
SPEAKER_02: But I want to make sure that we really reclaim this season and we take time to focus on what matters most and really which is the foundation and the reason we have hope, why we have faith.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: So I'd love for you to listen to this episode about how Lent can really be something that you implement today.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: And it is a time-tested practice, and it's powerful for those who choose to engage in these activities to deepen our dependency on the Lord.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: Well, Tish, I can't remember when I first stumbled upon your work.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: I feel like I've been a friend of yours forever.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: Like, seriously, forever.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to recount every single book.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, we might touch on some of them, but one of the things that I just have loved about you from the very beginning is this wonderlust uh of that just like you exude and the adventurous spirit and the things that you've taken on upon yourself to do as a family.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: Like you're just really cool.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: So I have to state that from the beginning.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: My kids would very much beg to differ, but I appreciate the sentiment nonetheless.
4:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh, usually it's always going, How does she?
4:38
SPEAKER_02: And I know I've listened to a few of your conversations and read a few of your books to go, oh, that's how, but it's still pretty remarkable.
4:45
SPEAKER_02: So for what it's worth, you're in the cool category in my book.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, that is very kind.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: I still feel like I'm just pretending and making stuff up as I go all the time.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Like I think most people do.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: Do we do?
5:00
SPEAKER_02: One of the things that I enjoy asking is if we could be a creeper and peek in your window, what would we see?
5:09
SPEAKER_02: So give us a little glimpse of in this chapter of your life, what would we see?
5:14
SPEAKER_02: What are you experiencing it for yourself and your family that could give us a little glimpse of what life is like?
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I have been online and writing for quite a while now.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: When I started, my oldest was two, and she just turned 17.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, 15 years.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Well so I've I've been really reflective lately as she's turned uh 17 that our life is in some ways just more of the same, just in different stages, but also just remarkably different from day to day still.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: Like a lot of people out there, I'm sure, I wear a lot of different hats, and it just depends on the day when I wear them.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: So I don't wear them all at the same time.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Um sounds like I do a lot.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: I just am learning what it looks like to juggle those different hats.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I'm still learning.
6:03
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah, exactly.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: You're in good, I write and I podcast and um I teach high schoolers twice a week.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: I teach English.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, I lead trips, but only, you know, once a year, really.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: And I garden and stir soup and fold laundry and watch shows on TV with my kids.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's all very normal, really and truly, but it's also fast going and I love it.
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: A lot of your themes are about simplicity, but also not not necessarily simplicity about the the ordinary.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: And that is you've done a lot of adventure.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: So I admit that when I even was thinking through, okay, what Enneagram type?
6:52
SPEAKER_02: Like, is there a seven in there?
6:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, what does that look like?
6:56
SPEAKER_02: So, but for you, I think you've approached adventure and you've approached simplicity and your rhythms from a very different perspective.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: So I like to find out and hear from the person what was that journey of discovering the Enneagram or exploring how their type shows up and what they do?
7:12
SPEAKER_02: Because as you said, you wear a lot of different hats, but it looks unique to you as well.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when I first started deep diving into the Enneagram, gosh, when was that?
7:22
SPEAKER_01: Maybe like eight years ago, whenever you know it started becoming everywhere.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: I thought I was a three, which is hilarious to me now because I'm not like at all.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh-uh.
7:34
SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: But I think what it was was I felt like I was supposed to be because of the work I did.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: I felt like there was something about the always sharing and wanting to seem a certain way.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to throw threes under the bus.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: I love threes, but um there was something about that that I thought that's what I should care about, or that's what should drive me or motivate me.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: But it never sat well.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, then I thought it was a five.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: This is several years after that, because of so many of the classic stereotypes of fives in terms of limited energy, loving to research and deep dive into things being very much in your head, you know, all those kinds of things.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought that was that for a while, but really and truly, it turns out I'm a four.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm in between those two numbers.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: Surprise.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Surprise.
8:24
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if we get into the subtypes, I am a self-preservation four, which I think can sometimes look like a five.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: And at very minimum, it doesn't look like your classic four.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Right.
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had always thought of fours as very emotional or dramatic.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: And I am super not that.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm very reserved.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: But when, you know, to me, Enneagram is so much about your more your core motivation, not what it looks like on the outside.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: When I started learning so much more about like what really motivates me, and also that the word envy, it doesn't really look like jealousy, that vice that fours deal with it's not so much that right, it's more the idea that there's this low grade, hollow feeling that something is missing.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: That resonated with me big time.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, and you know how sometimes with Enneagram, it's this um experience when you kind of feel that aha moment is that like you can't believe other people, not everybody deals with it or looks at life that way.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: To me, that's that became that moment.
9:27
SPEAKER_01: So I say all that to say I approach things like travel with our family, writing books, living in a fixer upper, doing our unconventional things from the lens of a four of not wanting to be boxed in, wanting to very much be who I'm made to be, really wanting to learn how I'm made.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also have a very heavy five wing.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of five still resonates with me.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: So yes, yeah.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, that I believe that really comes through in your writing and how you approach things and even almost the methodicalness and thoughtfulness and and even how you apply an adventure.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: So one side it's the freedom.
10:10
SPEAKER_02: It what appears maybe is the seven to not want to have the limitations, but it's more from the four of not wanting to be boxed in, but yet it's all very thoughtful.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: And that idea of the missing piece, I think that's really critical to hear.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: And interestingly enough, I've had a ton of fours on the podcast lately.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what that is.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: I need more getting in touch and deeper feelings or something.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: But and I love you, I love all of you.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: You're just amazing.
10:35
SPEAKER_02: But uh just that really going there to that that envy translates to feeling like something's missing is is really key to know get to the heart of it even more uh than a word like envy or jealousy might naturally provoke.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it turned me off actually, because envy to me connotates like a competitiveness or like a comparison.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: Um and I I never struggled with that.
11:06
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I think one of the ways fours excel is our ability to really maybe express, but but be ourselves in a way that's unique and individualistic.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we love being ourselves and we have understanding ourselves.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: And so when you first hear envy, you almost feel a little like, but to me, that comes across like I don't want to be me.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: But that's turns out not what it is.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: I think it really is the sense that everybody got a memo and you missed it.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: And so a little bit of that feeling of like, am I doing this right?
11:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, does everybody else know how to adult and I'm still making it up as I go?
11:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of feeling.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Um about like whatever.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: And so when you when you are in that stage of just, I don't want to call it unhealth, but just for me, when it looks like like when I'm tired or when I um not, you know, when things are unseasonably busy, it can look like things like just self-doubt or just second guessing a lot of the choices you would normally feel really confident in.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Um but I think as I've grown over the years and learned more and more about how I'm wired, I feel less and less pulled to that.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: And I also know the boundaries I need to set up so that envy stays at bay.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: It just might look like different things for different people, but yeah, I've learned what works for me and I have to stick with that.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know, especially with having teenagers, has your family gotten into the Enneagram at all where you have an idea of what they are or they have an idea of what type they lead as.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, I I mean, I don't know what your take is on typing kids.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: Um don't do it.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: They've got to you can get some general ideas and I have some tips on it, but don't like pig them and put them in a box.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: That's that's exactly how I have felt.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's kind of how I feel about all sorts of typing, like the Enneagram.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, let it be something that helps you learn more about who you are and how you're already wired.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: Don't let it be a prescription for telling you what to do, right?
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe that's a very four way of looking at it.
13:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, don't tell me who I am.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: Let me think.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: No, I love it.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
13:10
SPEAKER_01: So I take that same approach with my kids.
13:12
SPEAKER_01: By that I simply mean like I kind of keep it.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to say under the radar, like we don't talk about it.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: We do talk about it as a family.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: We talk about learning how we're made and how we're wired.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: And the importance, honestly, for deeper relationships, for healthier relationships, you know, so that you know when your brother does X, Y, or Z, he's not doing it just to be a pest.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: He's doing it out of love or out of a sincere goodwill or whatever it is.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, I I think I have been it's sometimes it's hard to know what's being a teenager and what's being them.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
13:44
SPEAKER_02: I do.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: I have teenagers, so it it looks it's a unique thing because you also are dealing with just general immaturity.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: So there's an element where a personality type is going to maybe look similar to the low side more often than not because you just have a maturity lack of awareness and their own unique presentation of health, what health looks like on that type.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: That's a good way to put it.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, teens are funny because they seem so grown up compared to you know what you remember a helpless babe.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: And so you think, gosh, they are really, you know, wise above their years.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And then they go and do something that's like, are you three?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: You know?
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: So it's good to remember that they're still trying to figure out who they are, where they are in the world.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I mean, and they will be for a while.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: And so to give them the space to do that.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: One thing that I have definitely learned as a as a parent of teens and has been brought me to my knees a lot lately is just making sure that I'm not trying to make them in my image, you know.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I really and truly need to support them as they learn how God made them and, you know, do what they are made to do and not even unintentionally conform them to my own image.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: That's so hard.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: It's hard.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: And that is a brilliant statement that I worth I think is worth expanding on.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: I just finished adding to my coaching certification, marriage and family endorsement and specific training for that.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: And one of the the key elements, and there's couples coaching, marriage coaching, and then there's family coaching.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: And those obviously look different, but one of the segments for the family coaching is focusing in on the fact that we not only family of origin is at play here and how we raise our kids, but our unique type, we try to parent them as our type.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: It's something we innately do.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: And that's why this understanding of going, oh, wait, that's what I need to hear.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: That's my motivation, that's the message my heart longs for.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: That's me.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: And to stay curious and dive into figuring out what it is for my kids.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: And you try a couple on and you allow them to go through adolescence and maybe come out on the other side going, oh, I'm, you know, I'm this.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: But the but just that beauty of understanding that's how I need to be loved.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily translate as well as we would hope to our kids.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: And taking time to be aware of that is so powerful.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Gosh.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, parenting is just one long journey of dying to yourself.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: I feel like.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: You know, in the early years it looked like dealing with late nights, you know, middle of the night feedings and dirty diapers.
16:25
SPEAKER_01: And now it it looks like this kind of stuff, you know, the emotional weight of parenting in a way that might not be the easiest or most ideal for you, but is truly what's best for your child.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:38
SPEAKER_02: Boy, that's a lot.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: But it is, including staying up way later than I am created to stay up.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: No, I I this is the thing.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: My husband and I talk about like, why do all the deep good questions come at like 11 p.m.?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: When I am a shell of a person, you know, it's like can I do this at three?
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Don't you understand?
16:56
SPEAKER_02: My brain is gone, dead, done.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: It needs sleep.
16:59
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I love that we're talking about things that matter, but has to be now.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: I love you so much.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, I I just think this is it it's just so good.
17:10
SPEAKER_02: I love um just hearing from fellow parents are in the trenches, if you will, and in the nitty-gritty, and to know that we're not alone.
17:18
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, for all my friends who are listening, and you've got littles, and I know it's so hard.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Like this is it is hard.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: It's very challenging.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: And so is every stage, but continue to just just know that the Lord is gonna keep equipping you.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: And and that's the thing, you'd probably testify to that too of like, well, I don't know what I'm doing.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: And I have to, as you said, get on our our knees and ask the Lord for help, supernatural help.
17:45
unknown: Yeah.
17:45
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Amen.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Every day.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, your newest book that is coming out, well, actually, it is out and it's available.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so excited because you are diving into the topic of Lamp, which I sometimes I enjoy this question, and it may be not as significant as it comes across or as deep.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: There's I don't expect a deep answer as maybe the question comes across as being deep.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes our stories or our books or our ministry or the music is birthed from a brokenhearted moment, this moment where we had a revelation or maybe a hard encounter, or you know, where we experienced a deep valley.
18:28
SPEAKER_02: But for you, where did this this message of speaking about Lent or even how it encountered your life and your rhythm as a believer?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: What's kind of the story behind the story?
18:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, I didn't grow up uh practicing Lent at all.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't anti-Lent.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: I just never heard, I mean, well, I had heard the word, I just didn't know anything about it.
18:47
SPEAKER_01: Same hand was yeah, yeah.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, really, it's easier if you kind of backtrack it into my other book about Advent, Shadow and Light, because it really came down to uh the I guess understanding the enlightenment I received and the appreciation I got from the liturgical calendar.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: So the historic church calendar that I was just I didn't live according to when I was a kid, which is fine.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: I just didn't.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, when I was a mom with younger kids, I really wanted to incorporate more of that into our family rhythms.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: When my husband and I lived overseas for a while, I think our eyes were open to a lot of ways that other Christians recognize um their participation in the body at large, and that so much of what I had grown up with wasn't necessarily bad or wrong, it was just very American or very Western, you know, very modern.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: So I just grew an appreciation for this very ancient time-tested way of living.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: And so to me, what I've really grown to appreciate about Lent and the liturgical calendar at large is this way of marking time that Christians have seen fit for thousands of years.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: We've been, we have a record of Christians practicing Lent in the second century.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: Just it's very old.
20:08
SPEAKER_01: And to join in that participation to me, both it helps me mark time.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, we are people that long for time marking.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: We want to make meaning out of our ordinary rhythms, and we do that anyway.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Like, even if you don't recognize it, we do that.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: We have Christmas, we have Fourth of July, we have Super Bowl, you know, we have these like Valentine's birthdays, school endings, school beginning.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: We have these traditions, these routines, rhythms.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: And so what the liturgical calendar is, is an invitation for everybody to mark time together, to live in tandem so that you don't, you're not alone, not only in the present, but also in the past and in the future.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: So the past uh brothers and sisters who have been doing this for thousands of years and the church moving forward.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: And so there's something really life-giving about participating in something that's really not about you at all, you know, that you're invited to join in, it's gonna happen whether you acknowledge it or not, and you're welcome to take part.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: So that to me is a little bit of why I've grown to appreciate in my just kind of ordinary life the liturgical calendar.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: Lent in particular, I appreciate because it is a such a counter-cultural, weird part of uh the calendar that we're recognizing here.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: You know, it just is not your typical thing that most people want to like get excited about the same way, perhaps like Advent and Christmases.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: So it really is different.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: So the book came honestly from this place of um responding to both God's nudging, but also God's nudging through other people, because I wrote the Advent book to meet a need for my own family.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And then people just started asking, so when are you gonna write the Lint book that goes with it?
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I didn't know I was writing a Lint book.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: So after prayer and research and all that.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Stuff, I ended up writing the Lint book.
22:02
SPEAKER_02: So uh I am so grateful that you went into all of that because after five years of podcasting, I have definitely made mention of observing the liturgical, the church calendar.
22:14
SPEAKER_02: And we've we've taken time to dive into the traditions at Advent.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: I even focused a couple of seasons just on Lent and preparing our hearts.
22:23
SPEAKER_02: But it's been a little bit since I've kind of uh talked about this and done a deep dive.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: So thank you because I think it's really important because I would say it's I think it's safe to assume that most of us didn't grow up observing the church calendar.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: It really only fits, tends to fit into certain denominations.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: Um maybe if you did grow up Catholic, you're more familiar with it from there.
22:48
SPEAKER_02: But then maybe if you went to more of the Protestant church, suddenly that's disappeared and it's not being observed.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: But I have grown to love as well.
22:57
SPEAKER_02: I think similar to your experience, your faith experience, where, oh, there is this beautiful blend of, you know, the Protestant church and the liturgical calendar.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: It does exist out there.
23:09
SPEAKER_02: It can go hand in hand.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: And for me, I believe even though it's not explicitly stated in the Bible, what is in the Word of God is Old Testament filled with festivals and traditions and markers of time that Jesus observed as well.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: And I feel like our church fathers or you know, fathers of our faith really did us a great service by creating these rhythms and these time markers because ultimately we do, as a Western culture, dismiss the significance of Easter.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, as people of faith who believe in Jesus, this should be the most significant time of year.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: And it tends to get lost in the busyness of spring and sports and school's ending and all the things.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: And maybe we're a little weary from Christmas and we're still trying to recover.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: So for you guys, what does it look like practically speaking, as you've begun to incorporate it with your family?
24:06
SPEAKER_01: One thing that I like to remind people or tell people whenever they ask this question is that my kids are not gung-ho about Lent.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: So I say that on the outset because I think people might hear the idea that, you know, because I wrote a book about it, that they're all like, yay, Lent, I cannot wait.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: They are very normal kids.
24:25
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really helpful to think of Lent when you start getting into the practicals with um it's bookends.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: So it ends obviously with Easter and it begins with Ash Wednesday.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: So we've got these two bookends of time, and then in between is a long season.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: We're talking 46 days.
24:42
SPEAKER_01: 46 days, 46 days.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: We we are invited to participate in fasting for 40 of those days.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Every Sunday is a little bit of a break, a little mini Easter in a way.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: Which um I love, by the way, just saying when I've observed it, I'm like, yes, it's Sunday.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do too.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: I do too for sure.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's helpful to think of, you know, when we're starting with Ash Wednesday, it's a day when we get together as a church and we're reminded with something physical, you know, ashes, that individually, one at a time, that the priest says poetically, from dust you came into dust you shall return, which is the way of basically saying, Don't forget you're gonna die.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: You know, don't forget life is short.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: This is a proper you are going to die.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: If you fast forward to the other book end of Easter, what are we saying?
25:29
SPEAKER_01: We're saying, you remember that that promise that you are going to die?
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, guess what?
25:34
SPEAKER_01: That's not all there is.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: It's lost its sting, and that is what we're celebrating on Easter.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: We're celebrating Christ's victory of death.
25:43
SPEAKER_01: So in between, we're walking from one state to the other.
25:46
SPEAKER_01: Seasons like Lent and Advent, they're journeys, right?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: We're going from one place to another.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing that's helpful is yes, it's a season of fasting, but we never see in the calendar a season of fasting without a season of feasting.
25:57
SPEAKER_01: We're not just fasting for its own sake.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: We don't just fast to like prove our worth or to see how good a Christian we can be, or you know, yeah, some like a workout.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes we treat it like a workout, um, but really it's to prepare ourselves for the season of Easter.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's also helpful to remember that yes, Lent is long, but Easter is longer.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Easter is 50 days, according to the ancient church calendar.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: You know, it goes all the way to Pentecost that season.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: One long feast.
26:25
SPEAKER_01: And so um, just like we get ready for company whenever we're having someone over for dinner, seasons like Lent and Advent, they are seasons of preparation for this feast.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And so we're preparing our hearts, our minds, our bodies for the season that we get to celebrate and remember the goodness of God.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: And so it is not just about, you know, lashing our backs with something hard just for the sake of it.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: It is in order to hear from God in a unique way.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: So beautifully said.
26:56
SPEAKER_02: And I think there's so much to it where this is just an invitation.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: If you've never observed a lamp before, if you've maybe had a long time ago and you kind of forgot about it, this is just, you know, maybe have an experiment to try it out this year, try it on for size and see what might happen for you for um for you know, just your spiritual walk or what it does as you take time to acknowledge what these days are.
27:24
SPEAKER_02: Because really, you even kind of said it.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: It's the comparison of ordinary days and holy days.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And there's ordinary time, is that what you mean?
27:32
SPEAKER_02: Yes, thank you, thank you.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Yes, okay, great.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay, what is ordinary time and and is there another one?
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, we have different well, we have seasons, if that's what you mean.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: Ordinary time and extraordinary time during those, yeah, yeah.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: During those seasons, we've got like Lent, Easter, Epiphany, all these other days, but there's a lot of the liturgical calendar that's just called ordinary time, which both means like normal every day, but it also means ordinary, like counting, ordinate, you know, ord ordinal.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: We're just counting our days, yeah.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: And it's a season of spiritual growth.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: I knew I could I could count on your Enneagram five to fill in those because I couldn't remember the phraseology or the terminology.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I know there's something too because I I love etymology.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's yeah, I'm such a nerd in that way.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's great.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Bring it on.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: It's it's so awesome.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, I think for me, it's what's kind of been interesting is that even though the liturgical calendar has slipped into my life, I would say, gosh, I don't know, maybe it's only been like eight, nine years or so.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: But a couple decades ago, what started happening was there's this rhythm of fasting that the churches that I ended up being a part of, where you fasted at the beginning of the year, you fasted the first few days of the month.
28:40
SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lot of fasting to the point where I'm like, I'm sick of fasting.
28:43
SPEAKER_02: And I was glad when I was pregnant or nursing because I didn't want to fast anymore.
28:47
SPEAKER_02: Well, quickly I began to learn that fasting is not just food.
28:50
SPEAKER_02: Fasting can be a lot of different things.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: So, for those who don't know, the Lint season includes uh choosing to give up something.
29:01
SPEAKER_02: So, how have you approached this with yourself, with your family?
29:04
SPEAKER_02: And how would you encourage someone who's maybe for the first time thinking about what to give up or what to fast?
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, just like fasting in general comes before feasting, that the two go hand in hand.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: When we get into the specifics of what we're going to fast from, it's helpful to remember that we fast in order to make room for something else.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: So we are letting go of something in our life, maybe temporarily, for the sake of temporarily adding something that God perhaps can use to speak to us in a unique way that we wouldn't otherwise hear.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: So when you have that in mind, it helps to really start thinking specifically about perhaps what are just some things in our lives that are just a little bit dependent on, you know, the these things that perhaps we are leaning into that we um are drawn to in a way that maybe it's not even necessarily a bad thing, you know, it's just something that feels a little bit um like a unique grip on my soul or body.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so it's easy to recognize like sugar or caffeine or chocolate.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: Those are like the classic fasts, you know, that people tend to do for Lent.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: But if you think of kind of just the broader day-to-day stuff in your life, there's all sorts of things we could possibly, you know, probably fast from.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking forms of social media, perhaps certain devices, certain streaming services, certain rhythms of our day, you know, when we are just grabbing our phone first thing in the morning or spacing out on the couch in front of the TV at night.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: And those things aren't necessarily bad in of themselves, you know, that they can have their place.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Just perhaps they have a bit too predominant a space in our lives right now.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: And if we were to fast from those, would we then have time for something else in our life?
31:01
SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't necessarily have to look like I'm gonna spend all that time in prayer, you know, or I'm gonna spend all that time on my knees.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not really the reality of it, you know.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:12
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps it just looks a bit like, you know, just like when you're fasting from food and you feel those hunger pains and you're reminded of your need for God to sustain you and to provide all good things, you know, perhaps it's a matter of breaking some kind of habit, like grabbing your phone first thing in the morning, that whenever you purposely are letting go of that, you're reminded of something else you could be doing to let God speak in a in a more prominent, unique way that I wouldn't, I would just miss otherwise because I was, you know, filling up my time doing something less important.
31:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I can promise the Lord is speaking to us, but do we have you know the bandwidth to listen and to tune in, or is too much cluttering, too much filling, you know, creating the noise that we need to just take that break from.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: So that's beautiful.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
32:05
SPEAKER_02: We we kind of really talked around the book.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: We talked the story behind the book and really dove into the nitty-gritty of what is Lint and what is a church calendar and the rhythm, the liturgy of it.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: But what could we expect to get from your book, Better and Sweet?
32:20
SPEAKER_02: We're stepping into this.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: This is airing just before as we're beginning Lint.
32:25
SPEAKER_02: What could my friends expect to get from this work as they maybe they're trying it for the first time, or maybe they're trying it for the 40th time?
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I wrote this book for exactly who you say.
32:36
SPEAKER_01: Someone who has never before experienced Lent, but would like to, maybe is a little nervous or feels like they don't know what they're doing, all the way to someone who this is old hat, they could do it in their sleep, but they just need some sort of added refreshment to their experience.
32:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, just like my Shadow and Light book, I originally wrote this for my own life in that I needed something that was open and go.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want something that required a lot of preparation.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, I needed something that met me where I was at in my real busy everyday modern life.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: I also wanted something that was both um theologically rich and meaningful.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: You know, it wasn't just surfacey, something that didn't necessarily require a degree or to know ancient Greek, you know, in order to really find meaning.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want anything that required craft sticks or cotton balls.
33:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm not that kind of mom.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: God love we are.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we love you.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: So I just, and I also wanted something that could be great on your own or with kids or with roommates.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, I wanted to make something that can meet lots of different stages of life.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: So every day has a short reading, a passage of something that I wrote, and then a portion of scripture, a question that you can then ask as a group, or you could just journal on your own or just like think about it throughout the day.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, a prayer, mostly old, you know, some prayer from our church history from someone greater and smarter than us.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: And then a corresponding song.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: So there's a daily song that goes with it with a playlist.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: And then once a week, I also have some art.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: So um both ancient and modern art from just amazingly talented people that brings us a little bit more of a sensory experience because we are sensory people, you know, God's put us in bodies, and and that's that those things are important, the science, the sounds and the sights.
34:23
SPEAKER_01: And and um I think it's also especially great for kids, you know, because kids love learning and taking things in like that.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: So, what I tell people is you've got these things every day.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: And if that feels like a lot, or pick one, or maybe one season you're able to do them all like one week, and then the next week when you've got some kind of out of state tournament and life is just crazy, you're just doing one, or you're just doing it on your own, and then you pick it back up with your kids, whatever.
34:48
SPEAKER_01: You're never behind.
34:49
SPEAKER_01: So, this isn't like this story that you know, if you miss five days, you have to now do five days worth of readings.
34:57
SPEAKER_01: It's nothing like that.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it is just a very approachable way to walking you through Lent in a gentle but um life-giving and um hopefully meaningful manner.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: 100% very meaningful.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's great how you gave all the caveats.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: That's what I love about my four friends.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: They give lots of caveats and they create things so that way it can be picked up because the reality is, you know, maybe my friends here are listening and it's two weeks into Lint and they're like, oh, it's too late, you missed the boat.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: No, you didn't.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: You've got all of these days, yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: And you've got all of these years.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: Get the book, pick it up, try it on, you know, read however it can flow.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, maybe it just sweats your appetite, even of like, oh yeah, next year I want to make sure that I do take time to observe that and I'm aware of when Ash Wednesday is because besides, if if you're not paying attention to when Mardi Gras is, then maybe you have no idea.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: So otherwise it could kind of just slide in and happen before you know it.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's okay.
36:00
SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: It's a beautiful resource.
36:03
SPEAKER_02: And I think in closing here, and I know there's so much more that I feel like, oh, I want to ask this and talk about this, but is there anything else that you would just say to encourage us as we begin to set our hearts in this way of preparing for really the best holiday in the the crux of our faith, the reason we have hope?
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Just like we are making room for God to speak to us in a unique way when we fast.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: My prayer for all of us, whether we're brand new at Lent or we've been doing it forever, is that God would surprise us.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: Like that to me is perhaps my biggest prayer because Lent is long.
36:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, sometimes by week three, you're just like, okay, I'm done.
36:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, that was good.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: It can feel tedious or it can just feel um heavy or, you know, dark or perhaps just a bit overwhelming.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: That God wants to speak to us, you know, that God isn't like putting us in some sort of hedge maze and just seeing if we can figure things out.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: He wants us to know him and he wants us to hear from him.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: And so my prayer is that God would use Lent to speak to us in a surprising way, a way we would have not heard otherwise had we not participated in this old ancient practice, and that we would be surprised, you know, that I think every Lent, God has said something to me I I would have never guessed, or that I would have not heard had I not taken up a Linton fast or participated in it.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: So um, that's my prayer for all of us that whether this is brand new or old hat, that we would be surprised.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
37:33
SPEAKER_02: And now I want to have another conversation about what you've heard from the Lord, but another time, another time, or we'll go follow you and read more about your sharings and your wonderings and sure what has come about.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: So thank you.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for your time, thank you for this resource and just love um being able to share your words and add to this conversation.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
37:59
SPEAKER_02: Wasn't that a beautiful conversation?
38:02
SPEAKER_02: I sure love hearing from Tish.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Just the story behind the story as usual, but also how does her family practice Lint?
38:09
SPEAKER_02: What does it really look like to do it with a house full of teenagers?
38:14
SPEAKER_02: Now, there are so many beautiful rhythms and lessons to be learned within Lint.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: And I hope that maybe if it's not something you've practiced before, you might try it again.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm glad that she's walked us through her experience of it and made it something that I think probably any of us could do.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: I pray that if you're listening and you were a mom, that you would remember this profound truth.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: God's strength and wisdom is available for you today, whatever you're putting your hands to, with work or in motherhood.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: I pray that you would ask for his strength and wisdom and and believe that it will come to you.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: Our Lord does love to gift you for whatever you need for whatever your day holds.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: Now, if you'd like to connect with me on the socials or my website, all the links can be found in the show notes, as well as the links to Tisha's website and her book.
39:05
SPEAKER_02: Now remember, friend, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plan for the simply wholehearted life you desire.