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When Trust Becomes A Trap · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

0:00
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Speaker 2: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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Speaker 1: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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Speaker 1: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
0:47
Speaker 1: Exactly Right Media.
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Speaker 3: And he was saying, I just left there or looking
0:54
Speaker 3: for your mam. I was there for two hours. I
0:57
Speaker 3: said to him, well, she landed this morning. Why weren't
1:00
Speaker 3: you there this morning to pick her up?
1:16
Speaker 1: Welcome to the night.
1:17
Speaker 2: I'm Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith. This week we're speaking
1:20
Speaker 2: with two sisters Ashley and Crystal. In January of twenty
1:24
Speaker 2: twenty three, their fifty eight year old mother, Donna, was
1:26
Speaker 2: arrested in Tokyo on international drug smuggling charges. The news
1:31
Speaker 2: stunned her family, especially because Donna had long been fiercely
1:34
Speaker 2: anti drug.
1:35
Speaker 1: Immediately, Ashley and Crystal knew this had something to do
1:39
Speaker 1: with a man named Kelly that Donna had met while
1:41
Speaker 1: online dating and developed a relationship with. Together, Ashley and
1:45
Speaker 1: Crystal tell their family's heart wrenching story of the elaborate
1:49
Speaker 1: scheme their mother became entrapped in, and their ongoing efforts
1:52
Speaker 1: for justice.
1:54
Speaker 2: Let's get into the interview.
2:00
Speaker 3: Ashley and I'm Donna's second eldest daughter and I'm Crystal,
2:05
Speaker 3: Donna's eldest daughter. We are both in Perth, Western Australia.
2:11
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about what kind of
2:14
Speaker 1: person and what kind of mother your mother. Donna Nelson is.
2:20
Speaker 3: So our mom. She's fifty nine years old at the moment.
2:26
Speaker 3: She's a mother of five and a grandmother of three.
2:31
Speaker 3: She's an Indigenous woman. I think she's always looked to
2:36
Speaker 3: fall in love ever since the breakup with our dad,
2:40
Speaker 3: and I guess she was a very devoted mother and wife,
2:46
Speaker 3: so when the breakup happened, I think she had lost
2:50
Speaker 3: a lot of her identity as well and didn't know
2:53
Speaker 3: where she fit in the world.
2:57
Speaker 2: Actually, in Crystal said, their parents separated in two thousand
3:00
Speaker 2: and three after twenty years of marriage. They both remember
3:03
Speaker 2: the divorce being pretty hard on their mother Donna.
3:08
Speaker 3: For a long time, she had hopes that the relationship
3:13
Speaker 3: would reconcile, and I think it just got to a
3:17
Speaker 3: point where she realized it wasn't really going to happen.
3:21
Speaker 4: She stopped going to church as well.
3:23
Speaker 3: I guess she felt like she failed in that area,
3:27
Speaker 3: and it was quite a few years later that she
3:31
Speaker 3: started to date.
3:32
Speaker 4: Like a long time later, wasn't it. Yeah.
3:34
Speaker 3: Mum's also the type of person who's always looking out
3:38
Speaker 3: for younger people, like looking out for people who are
3:42
Speaker 3: affected by substance abuse and you know, drugs and alcohol
3:47
Speaker 3: and trying to help them move forward to have a
3:50
Speaker 3: better life.
3:51
Speaker 4: That's like mum's life's work.
3:53
Speaker 3: She's always dedicated herself to people who need her, and
3:58
Speaker 3: she's always been the voice people who don't have a
4:01
Speaker 3: voice or comfortable speaking up.
4:06
Speaker 2: Dina poured her time and energy into helping others in
4:09
Speaker 2: her community, which was fulfilling, but the desire to find
4:13
Speaker 2: love again never left her, and so she decided to
4:15
Speaker 2: try online dating. Donna cast a wide net geographically. She
4:20
Speaker 2: was looking for the right person and she didn't want
4:23
Speaker 2: to limit herself to just dating someone who lived nearby,
4:27
Speaker 2: and it seemed to work. She met a man he
4:30
Speaker 2: lived in the US, and eventually Donna went to meet
4:32
Speaker 2: him in person.
4:34
Speaker 3: She had met a man in Oklahoma and she had
4:40
Speaker 3: flown over there to go see him, and they got
4:44
Speaker 3: along really well, to the point where it wasn't really
4:48
Speaker 3: a relationship, but they were able to remain friends.
4:52
Speaker 4: And I feel right up.
4:54
Speaker 3: Until this happening even they were still friends. So she
4:57
Speaker 3: did have I guess what you might call some success
5:01
Speaker 3: in online dating. Actually met her husband through the internet
5:07
Speaker 3: as well. I met my husband through the internet, So
5:11
Speaker 3: she definitely saw it as a safe place to meet
5:15
Speaker 3: like a potential husband or lifelong partner.
5:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I met my husband online. It's a
5:23
Speaker 1: very common way to meet people. So Tana ends up
5:27
Speaker 1: meeting a guy online that actually lives in the US
5:30
Speaker 1: and goes all the way there to meet him to
5:32
Speaker 1: Oklahoma actually, and he turns out to be this really
5:35
Speaker 1: nice guy, but in the end it's not a romantic connection.
5:40
Speaker 1: I imagine that that maybe gave her some confidence that
5:43
Speaker 1: dating someone, even if they're in another country, could still
5:46
Speaker 1: work out. So then sometime during COVID she gets back
5:51
Speaker 1: on the dating apps and how does that go for her?
5:56
Speaker 3: So she met this guy, She started to talk to
6:01
Speaker 3: him quite frequently. He had adult children. He lived in Japan,
6:07
Speaker 3: but traveled all around the world. He seemed very interested
6:11
Speaker 3: in her life and what she was doing and her
6:16
Speaker 3: children as well. And I think that's what really won
6:21
Speaker 3: her over, because Mum's a real family oriented person.
6:26
Speaker 4: Oh his name is Kelly, That's what she said his
6:30
Speaker 4: name was.
6:31
Speaker 3: I remember it would have been in June of twenty
6:35
Speaker 3: twenty two that I believe Mom first brought him up
6:39
Speaker 3: to me.
6:41
Speaker 2: Of Donna's five daughters, Ashley is the self proclaimed skeptic.
6:45
Speaker 2: When she heard about her mother's new online long distance
6:48
Speaker 2: relationship with this man named Kelly, she was cautious. She
6:53
Speaker 2: warned Donna about online scammers and what red flags she
6:56
Speaker 2: should look out for. She said things like, never give
7:00
Speaker 2: out your bank account details.
7:02
Speaker 3: Don't send him any money, don't accept anything from him
7:06
Speaker 3: that sort of thing, but didn't really think too much
7:09
Speaker 3: of it because she said, no, he doesn't ask me
7:11
Speaker 3: for anything, and he's never asked me for any of
7:15
Speaker 3: my personal information.
7:16
Speaker 4: So I gave her that pre warning and didn't really
7:20
Speaker 4: think too much of it.
7:21
Speaker 1: After that tell us about like the progression of this
7:25
Speaker 1: new relationship.
7:27
Speaker 4: She would talk to him all the time.
7:30
Speaker 3: Sometimes Mum would come over to our house or I'd
7:33
Speaker 3: pick her up to take her somewhere, and he would
7:36
Speaker 3: call randomly. So we saw him on video calls and
7:40
Speaker 3: it was a very regular I wouldn't even say daily thing.
7:45
Speaker 3: Sometimes it was all throughout the day that they were speaking.
7:49
Speaker 3: He never really spoke with us, it was just a
7:53
Speaker 3: quick hello, I'll talk to you when you're back home.
7:58
Speaker 4: Let me know when you're home.
8:00
Speaker 3: So I guess in a way I should have maybe
8:04
Speaker 3: saw that as a red flag. If he was so
8:08
Speaker 3: interested to know more about the family, why did he
8:11
Speaker 3: not really engage in conversation with us. He always would
8:15
Speaker 3: want to only speak to Mum when she was alone. Yeah,
8:18
Speaker 3: we definitely saw the frequency of the conversations.
8:22
Speaker 4: It wasn't until I think it was mid December twenty
8:25
Speaker 4: twenty two that mum actually told me when she wanted
8:31
Speaker 4: to go and meet him in person that I dug
8:35
Speaker 4: a bit further and started to ask her, Okay, so
8:38
Speaker 4: his name is Kelly, does he have any identification? What
8:42
Speaker 4: does he do? Where does he live?
8:45
Speaker 3: Four sorts of questions, and that's when I found out
8:48
Speaker 3: that he told her that his real name is Rex,
8:53
Speaker 3: but his nickname is Kelly. And I didn't think it
8:57
Speaker 3: was strange that his nickname was Kelly because we have
9:01
Speaker 3: family members who have very strange nicknames as well, so
9:05
Speaker 3: it's kind of normally in our family for someone to
9:07
Speaker 3: be given a nickname that you can't really see where
9:10
Speaker 3: it comes from. But she sent me a copy of
9:12
Speaker 3: his Japanese residence card that looked kind of legit. I
9:18
Speaker 3: asked her if she had any photos of him, and
9:21
Speaker 3: she said no, They were on his dating profile and
9:26
Speaker 3: he deactivated it. So I asked her, the next time
9:30
Speaker 3: you have a video call with Kelly, can you just
9:33
Speaker 3: take a screenshot off his face? And that's where the
9:37
Speaker 3: original photo of Kelly came from.
9:39
Speaker 2: You had asked her what does she do for a
9:43
Speaker 2: living and what was her answer to that?
9:46
Speaker 3: She said that he owned his own clothing design business
9:51
Speaker 3: where he designed women's gowns, couture gowns, and that he
9:59
Speaker 3: had shops in several locations worldwide.
10:03
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, how did your mom seem to be feeling
10:07
Speaker 1: in the relationship.
10:09
Speaker 3: It seemed to be feeling really secure and really excited
10:14
Speaker 3: about meeting him. She would say, Oh, I've finally got
10:20
Speaker 3: someone that is going to look after me. He doesn't
10:24
Speaker 3: want anything from me, because in the relationships that she
10:28
Speaker 3: had had before this, it was always someone that she
10:34
Speaker 3: was almost sort of I wouldn't say a project, but
10:38
Speaker 3: maybe like they weren't set up or established the way
10:41
Speaker 3: that she was, and it was more she would sort
10:45
Speaker 3: of take care of them, or she would help them
10:47
Speaker 3: to find a job and set them up and build
10:50
Speaker 3: them up to be like a strong, independent person that
10:55
Speaker 3: equally contributes in every way in the relationship. And this
10:59
Speaker 3: was the first time that she was finding somebody who
11:03
Speaker 3: needed nothing from.
11:04
Speaker 4: Her, so she was really excited about that.
11:09
Speaker 2: Crystal was happy for her mom. She could tell how
11:12
Speaker 2: excited Donna was and it was nice to see her
11:15
Speaker 2: feeling loved, especially after spending so much of her life
11:18
Speaker 2: caring for others. But then Donna started to talk about
11:22
Speaker 2: getting married to Kelly, and that was a little alarming,
11:26
Speaker 2: after all, none of them had met him at the
11:29
Speaker 2: same time, the wedding talk didn't seem all that real
11:32
Speaker 2: to Crystal. Donna and Kelly had been planning to just
11:35
Speaker 2: meet in person for over a year and that still
11:38
Speaker 2: hadn't happened, So how real could this wedding talk be.
11:43
Speaker 3: So the wedding was going to be in Nigeria, where
11:47
Speaker 3: he was from. So he lived in Japan but would
11:51
Speaker 3: fly back and forth to Nigeria very often or his
11:55
Speaker 3: family were back there. He wanted a big, traditional wedding,
12:00
Speaker 3: and it was kind of like he was really proud
12:04
Speaker 3: to be having her as his wife and wanted to
12:07
Speaker 3: show her to all of his family and for us
12:10
Speaker 3: to meet all of his family as well. I remember
12:14
Speaker 3: thinking when she said that she was going to get
12:17
Speaker 3: married to this guy and how the wedding would sort
12:20
Speaker 3: of be. I sort of thought, well, that's nice, but
12:26
Speaker 3: I wasn't really sure if it would really happen yet
12:29
Speaker 3: because they hadn't met in person, and so I thought
12:33
Speaker 3: once they meet in person, she'd know for sure and
12:36
Speaker 3: have a better idea. And she had been talking about
12:39
Speaker 3: meeting up with him, and I remember saying to her,
12:44
Speaker 3: how about he come to Perth and meet you here first,
12:49
Speaker 3: and then we all get to meet him. We can
12:51
Speaker 3: see what we think of him as well. You're here
12:54
Speaker 3: in your home city. And she had gone away and
13:00
Speaker 3: spoken to him about that, and he sort of brought
13:04
Speaker 3: up how busy he was with his work and that
13:06
Speaker 3: it probably wouldn't be something that he'd be able to do.
13:10
Speaker 3: Then she brought up Japan, and before that she brought
13:13
Speaker 3: up Brazil, and I know I was thinking, these are
13:17
Speaker 3: countries where the people don't really speak English. Can he
13:21
Speaker 3: not come here first? Like I'd feel much better about
13:24
Speaker 3: you coming here. She again would go away to him
13:27
Speaker 3: and express her concerns, and his response, which I thought
13:33
Speaker 3: was quite reassuring, was that he would be willing to
13:39
Speaker 3: have one or several of us go over with her
13:44
Speaker 3: if we're so worried, she can take some people with
13:47
Speaker 3: her so that she feels more comfortable, so that we
13:50
Speaker 3: feel more comfortable about her going.
13:52
Speaker 4: When he sort of said that, I thought, oh, well, someone.
13:55
Speaker 3: Who's in it for something else would not care to
13:59
Speaker 3: make an offer like that. It didn't really bring any
14:03
Speaker 3: red flags for me. It actually made me feel like,
14:06
Speaker 3: oh wow, He's really considering her and how we feel
14:11
Speaker 3: and our concerns.
14:12
Speaker 4: He's got nothing to hide.
14:15
Speaker 2: Donna and Kelly continued to talk about meeting in person,
14:18
Speaker 2: but there were still no concrete plans. In the meantime,
14:22
Speaker 2: they spoke daily on the phone or on feast time.
14:25
Speaker 3: I think one thing to add about him in general
14:29
Speaker 3: is the way that he structured his story to Mum.
14:34
Speaker 3: He made himself very palatable to her as a divorcee
14:38
Speaker 3: with children because he claimed to be divorce from his
14:42
Speaker 3: Japanese wife.
14:44
Speaker 4: And had three sons.
14:46
Speaker 3: And I think that's a huge part for Mum, because
14:50
Speaker 3: he didn't claim to be this young, fit, muscular like,
14:56
Speaker 3: blond head, blue eyed guy who he wanted to be
15:01
Speaker 3: in a relationship with her. He was an older guy,
15:06
Speaker 3: wasn't a very strikingly handsome sort of person. He was
15:10
Speaker 3: just like an average older guy. It was a divorce,
15:15
Speaker 3: had his life sorted out.
15:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean they seemed very aligned and like
15:20
Speaker 1: their station in life, and I can totally see that
15:23
Speaker 1: would be reassuring, you know. I also wanted to touch on
15:28
Speaker 1: something I read researching the story that you can maybe
15:30
Speaker 1: tell me about, which is were they looking at homes? Together.
15:35
Speaker 4: During this time, he had inquired about homes in Australia,
15:41
Speaker 4: so he wanted to move over here and build a
15:45
Speaker 4: life with her so that she could be close to
15:47
Speaker 4: her family. Yeah. I think she really.
15:51
Speaker 3: Sold her on his commitment to family and supporting her
15:56
Speaker 3: with her family commitments.
15:59
Speaker 4: Yeah.
15:59
Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned he said he had children as well.
16:03
Speaker 1: Did she ever speak with his kids over FaceTime or
16:07
Speaker 1: however they were communicating?
16:09
Speaker 3: No, I don't think these children of his really existed.
16:15
Speaker 3: One was a doctor or studying to be a doctor,
16:19
Speaker 3: one was a lawyer, and one was something else, like.
16:24
Speaker 4: It was a pharmacist or something.
16:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he really gave off this well grounded, successful
16:34
Speaker 3: life and that his family were on that path as well.
16:39
Speaker 2: After two and a half years of dating remotely, Donna
16:42
Speaker 2: announced she was finally going to meet Kelly in person.
16:46
Speaker 2: This was September of twenty twenty two. Apparently Kelly said
16:50
Speaker 2: he would cover the cost of the plane ticket. Initially
16:53
Speaker 2: the plan was to meet up in Hong Kong, but
16:56
Speaker 2: that changed.
16:58
Speaker 3: Then after that it was going to be Brazil because
17:03
Speaker 3: he also said he had a brother who had a
17:06
Speaker 3: construction business and he was set up in Brazil. So yeah,
17:12
Speaker 3: He just seemed to travel around a lot, and it
17:15
Speaker 3: depended on where he would be at the time. And then,
17:20
Speaker 3: oh gosh, it was very last minute that she said
17:23
Speaker 3: she was going to meet him in Japan.
17:32
Speaker 2: In September of twenty twenty two, Donna and Kelly were
17:34
Speaker 2: making plans to meet in person for the very first
17:37
Speaker 2: time after dating remotely for two years. Kelly kept telling
17:41
Speaker 2: Donna he wanted to purchase her plane ticket to Japan,
17:45
Speaker 2: except the months started to go by and still there
17:48
Speaker 2: was no plane ticket. They would decide on a date
17:50
Speaker 2: for her to leave, and then Kelly would change that
17:53
Speaker 2: plan last minute. Something would come up and it didn't
17:55
Speaker 2: work for him anymore, and then they would set a
17:58
Speaker 2: new date, but then that date would come and go,
18:01
Speaker 2: no concrete plan, no plane ticket, And then suddenly it
18:04
Speaker 2: was late December of twenty twenty two and the holidays
18:07
Speaker 2: were upon them, and still Donna had no idea when
18:10
Speaker 2: or even if she was going to Japan.
18:14
Speaker 4: So she was originally meant to go to Japan at
18:19
Speaker 4: some point early in December, but she kept asking him like,
18:24
Speaker 4: when am I going? When are you going to send
18:26
Speaker 4: my flight details through? And it just seemed to not
18:30
Speaker 4: be happening, so she focused her attention on like enjoying
18:34
Speaker 4: Christmas with us all, and we had Christmas Day that
18:39
Speaker 4: was really good. When she was questioning, why haven't you
18:42
Speaker 4: got my flights yet? Is this even going to happen?
18:45
Speaker 4: I really want to see you, he was having the
18:48
Speaker 4: excuse that it's the Christmas period, things are really busy.
18:54
Speaker 4: I'm trying to get the flight sorted.
18:57
Speaker 2: And then a few days after Christmas, Kelly told Donna
19:00
Speaker 2: the ticket had been purchased. So Donna headed to the
19:03
Speaker 2: airport excited to finally be going to Japan.
19:07
Speaker 3: She gets to the airport that night and she goes
19:11
Speaker 3: to her put in her flight details on the machines,
19:15
Speaker 3: and there's no flight.
19:17
Speaker 4: So she goes home.
19:18
Speaker 3: She's feeling really down, and I think she was sort
19:23
Speaker 3: of giving up on hope of actually meeting him. And
19:27
Speaker 3: then it was a few days later, when it might
19:30
Speaker 3: have been the twenty ninth, where he says, oh, you're
19:34
Speaker 3: going to go tomorrow, and so it was it was
19:39
Speaker 3: a massive blur. We didn't really get time to sit
19:44
Speaker 3: down and have a conversation with her. It was a
19:47
Speaker 3: very hectic period where you know you're going to Christmas
19:50
Speaker 3: and Boxing Day family things, and mums already said she's
19:58
Speaker 3: going on a flight, which didn't eventually way. All throughout December,
20:02
Speaker 3: she wasn't given flight details. I guess in a way,
20:05
Speaker 3: I sort of didn't think she was going to go.
20:09
Speaker 3: I thought he stalling, like he doesn't really want to
20:12
Speaker 3: meet her.
20:14
Speaker 2: Even though Donna had been talking about meeting Kelly for years,
20:18
Speaker 2: there had never been a plane ticket, and then suddenly
20:21
Speaker 2: there was, and Donna was set to leave in less
20:24
Speaker 2: than twenty four hours. It was in the middle of
20:27
Speaker 2: the holiday rush, and Ashley and Crystal said everything was
20:30
Speaker 2: so hectic they barely had time to talk with their
20:32
Speaker 2: mom about the trip. Crystal said she felt like this
20:36
Speaker 2: was something her mother was determined to do after two
20:39
Speaker 2: years of talking online to Kelly. She wanted to know
20:42
Speaker 2: if the relationship was real, if it was going anywhere.
20:46
Speaker 3: I think she really really had her heart set on
20:50
Speaker 3: going to finally meet this guy.
20:52
Speaker 4: It had been so long.
20:54
Speaker 3: I feel as though in her mind it was like,
20:59
Speaker 3: I need to go meet him now, like to progress
21:02
Speaker 3: this relationship. You can't just stay at this point. I
21:04
Speaker 3: don't think it's going to go any further. It's sort
21:07
Speaker 3: of the vibe that I got, especially with the flights
21:13
Speaker 3: that he was planning to take her on and never
21:15
Speaker 3: really did. It just seemed like a lot of failed
21:19
Speaker 3: promises at that point, and she just really wanted to
21:22
Speaker 3: go meet him to see like are we compatible in person?
21:28
Speaker 3: Is this going to work? But just before she left
21:32
Speaker 3: it was such a blur. So I had a quite
21:38
Speaker 3: young daughter at the time.
21:40
Speaker 4: One of the other sisters had a quite.
21:43
Speaker 3: Young son, and I remember we were very flat out
21:49
Speaker 3: with those two. And the last time I saw Mum
21:54
Speaker 3: before she left, my other sister and I were at
21:58
Speaker 3: a water park with the kids and Mum she was
22:02
Speaker 3: really stressed out in that time. I think she was
22:08
Speaker 3: just flustered trying to have everything organized. She didn't want
22:13
Speaker 3: to forget her passport, and I guess it sort of
22:17
Speaker 3: showed when the trial was on and we saw her
22:20
Speaker 3: suitcase that she had, there was.
22:24
Speaker 4: Like very few belongings in there.
22:27
Speaker 3: You think that she was going there in December January,
22:31
Speaker 3: when it's winter time in Japan. She didn't have any
22:36
Speaker 3: winter clothes, she didn't have any jackets or anything like that.
22:40
Speaker 1: So she does end up going to Japan. When do
22:44
Speaker 1: you first hear that something has gone wrong?
22:48
Speaker 3: So before Mum left, we've got her to download the
22:53
Speaker 3: Life three sixty apps so we can track her. So
22:56
Speaker 3: once she landed at Mariita Airport in Tokyo, we could
23:02
Speaker 3: see that she landed. She messaged us and told us
23:06
Speaker 3: just landed, and told us how cold it was, had
23:09
Speaker 3: a little back and forth laugh about the weather, and
23:14
Speaker 3: then it was just silence. So that was first thing
23:18
Speaker 3: in the morning that she landed, like seven am local time,
23:23
Speaker 3: and it was about i'll say one pm Perth time,
23:31
Speaker 3: which is two pm Japan time. We hadn't heard anything,
23:35
Speaker 3: and I messaged all my sisters and said, has anyone
23:38
Speaker 3: heard from Mum? I figured my sisters with the babies
23:43
Speaker 3: would have heard from her first. And as everyone started
23:46
Speaker 3: to come back and say no, I haven't heard from her,
23:50
Speaker 3: then it started to make us all very worried. I
23:53
Speaker 3: could see on the tracking app that she was still
23:56
Speaker 3: at the airport, but she wasn't answering her phone or anything.
24:01
Speaker 3: And it was very out of the ordinary that we
24:04
Speaker 3: didn't hear from Mom. Because I just wanted to add
24:07
Speaker 3: that Mum is the kind of person who we would
24:12
Speaker 3: speak to her, not even just once in the day,
24:15
Speaker 3: like there were constant conversations and video calls all throughout
24:19
Speaker 3: the day.
24:21
Speaker 2: Donnah was usually in constant contact with her children, but
24:24
Speaker 2: she'd gone silent on that very first day. Ashley printed
24:28
Speaker 2: out any information that she had about Kelly, including a
24:31
Speaker 2: screenshot of his face that she'd encouraged her mother to
24:34
Speaker 2: take during one of their facetimes. She gathered it all
24:37
Speaker 2: up and she headed to her local police station and.
24:42
Speaker 3: I told them I want to lodge a missing person's
24:45
Speaker 3: report for my mum. She's overseas in Tokyo. She's landed there.
24:50
Speaker 3: And I said, I know that it takes twenty four
24:53
Speaker 3: hours at least until you can lodge a missing person's report,
24:58
Speaker 3: but if it's out of the ordinary, then you can
25:01
Speaker 3: do it sooner. And this is out of the ordinary
25:04
Speaker 3: for my mom. So that night I did that missing
25:08
Speaker 3: person's report. While I was speaking with a police officer
25:11
Speaker 3: in an interrogation room, Kelly called me and he was
25:17
Speaker 3: looking for my mom and he was saying, I just
25:20
Speaker 3: left the airport looking for your mom. I was there
25:23
Speaker 3: for two hours, and I said to him, well, she
25:28
Speaker 3: landed this morning. Why weren't you there this morning to
25:31
Speaker 3: pick her up? Why are you only there tonight and
25:35
Speaker 3: the police officer was guiding me and saying what to
25:38
Speaker 3: say to him to gain information from him, but not
25:41
Speaker 3: tell him anything.
25:43
Speaker 4: And in our little report he.
25:45
Speaker 3: Had noted down that I received a phone call from
25:48
Speaker 3: a man with a Nigerian accent and after that the
25:55
Speaker 3: missing person's report was done. So I knew I had
25:58
Speaker 3: to do that to open a consular case with the
26:02
Speaker 3: Australian government. So the next morning I called our consular
26:07
Speaker 3: emergency center and asked them to create a case for
26:10
Speaker 3: my mum. They didn't have the missing person's report information,
26:16
Speaker 3: so I made sure the police sent that through to them.
26:19
Speaker 3: So that's on the fifth of January. She landed on
26:22
Speaker 3: the fourth of January around yees seven am. Then the
26:27
Speaker 3: consular case was created on the fifth of January and
26:31
Speaker 3: they told us, look, it might take a few days,
26:34
Speaker 3: or it could take a week, or it could take
26:37
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks to locate your mum. And we
26:41
Speaker 3: asked them if they could please, no matter what time
26:44
Speaker 3: it was, as soon as they got information back about
26:48
Speaker 3: our mum, could they make sure that someone calls us.
26:52
Speaker 1: At this point in all of this, what did your
26:56
Speaker 1: local police, local law enforcement think, maybe happening during those
27:01
Speaker 1: first twenty four hours, because you know, it was unusual
27:04
Speaker 1: that she just went completely silent, and she's been at
27:09
Speaker 1: the airport and the person that she was trying to
27:12
Speaker 1: meet there can't find her, And what did they think
27:17
Speaker 1: might be happening.
27:19
Speaker 4: The place?
27:20
Speaker 3: Didn't indicate what their thought process was. They did say
27:25
Speaker 3: it was a little bit strange, and they did say
27:27
Speaker 3: to me, once they heard Kelly call me and they
27:32
Speaker 3: heard that conversation, they did say that that's very suspicious.
27:37
Speaker 3: So that's all they indicated to me.
27:39
Speaker 1: What about the call that law enforcement overheard had made
27:44
Speaker 1: them say that's suspicious.
27:48
Speaker 3: I think it's the fact that he wasn't waiting at
27:50
Speaker 3: the airport for her when she was only there to
27:53
Speaker 3: meet him, and.
27:55
Speaker 4: The fact that he wasn't there at the time that
27:59
Speaker 4: she arrived.
28:00
Speaker 3: He was there at least twelve hours later, or maybe
28:06
Speaker 3: over ten hours later. He went to the airport to
28:09
Speaker 3: look for her. So she landed at seven am local
28:13
Speaker 3: time and he wasn't there until six pm local time. Yeah,
28:18
Speaker 3: that's like eleven hours later. But also it was how
28:22
Speaker 3: he was talking. I think he mentioned that he knew
28:26
Speaker 3: a lawyer who might be able to help, and they
28:30
Speaker 3: were like, oh, why is he talking about that?
28:32
Speaker 2: At this stage, it was all so strange. Why had
28:37
Speaker 2: Donna gone silent? And why was Kelly Colin Ashley, twelve
28:42
Speaker 2: hours after he was supposed to pick Donna up from
28:44
Speaker 2: the airport in Tokyo an even stranger? Why did he
28:49
Speaker 2: think she needed a lawyer? Crystal Ashley and the rest
28:58
Speaker 2: of the family had no idea where their mother was.
29:02
Speaker 2: They called the airport, but it was hard to get
29:04
Speaker 2: any information with the language barrier. They reached out to
29:07
Speaker 2: Vietnam Airlines, the carrier Donna had flown on, and they
29:11
Speaker 2: were told only this The flight had landed safely in Tokyo,
29:15
Speaker 2: but Donna had not picked up her checked bag. All
29:18
Speaker 2: they could do was wait and hope that she was
29:20
Speaker 2: okay and that someone somewhere would call with news.
29:25
Speaker 3: You just feel sick for an endless amount of time.
29:32
Speaker 3: You can't sleep, you can't eat, You're just worried. There's
29:36
Speaker 3: no way to contact her. You go from thinking the
29:40
Speaker 3: worst to I know the best that I was thinking was, Oh,
29:46
Speaker 3: maybe she's filled out the immigration part wrong and they
29:51
Speaker 3: have not accepted her. And she's just on a flight
29:53
Speaker 3: right now coming home. And then you bounce to is
29:58
Speaker 3: she dead somewhere? Did something happen to her? And this
30:02
Speaker 3: person's not telling us anything. Is she in a hospital somewhere?
30:07
Speaker 3: And you start googling all the different hospitals over there,
30:10
Speaker 3: and you just don't know where to start. I know,
30:13
Speaker 3: we had the thought of trying to call as many
30:16
Speaker 3: police stations and hospitals as we could, but it just
30:20
Speaker 3: felt like a needle in a haystack. You have no
30:23
Speaker 3: idea where to start or where to get answers from,
30:27
Speaker 3: and it's just a horrible feeling.
30:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so when do you learn what has happened?
30:34
Speaker 1: And sort of take me to that moment.
30:37
Speaker 3: So in the days leaping up, we were really struggling.
30:44
Speaker 3: Ash was over in Brisbane, the rest of us were
30:47
Speaker 3: here in Perth. We weren't really eating or getting any sleep.
30:52
Speaker 3: So our dad had kind of made it a commitment
30:57
Speaker 3: that each day we're going to catch up at a
30:59
Speaker 3: park or something and just get out and get some
31:01
Speaker 3: fresh air, have some time together. This was now on
31:06
Speaker 3: the Saturday, and Dad wanted to take us out to lunch.
31:12
Speaker 3: So this place where we went to go have lunch,
31:15
Speaker 3: it was out in a pr and it was really
31:17
Speaker 3: lovely on a sunny day, and it was about an
31:21
Speaker 3: hour's drive from where we all live. We got out
31:25
Speaker 3: there and I remember it was the first real meal
31:30
Speaker 3: that I had been able to eat in those days.
31:35
Speaker 3: And just as I had gotten through it, I see
31:38
Speaker 3: Dad's phone ring and he kind of quietly gets up
31:43
Speaker 3: and walks away, and then I just sense like, this
31:47
Speaker 3: is not good. This is someone calling about Mum, and
31:50
Speaker 3: it's not going to be good. A few minutes later,
31:52
Speaker 3: Dad returns and we all leave the table where we're
31:57
Speaker 3: eating and go to a I wouldn't.
32:00
Speaker 4: Even say a quiet spot.
32:01
Speaker 3: It's just a footpath out the front of the restaurant.
32:06
Speaker 3: And Ash's on the phone at this point with Dad.
32:11
Speaker 3: Dad's really serious and sits us all down and I
32:17
Speaker 3: can't remember the words, but he just sort of breaks
32:22
Speaker 3: when news that Mum is okay, she's safe, but she's
32:28
Speaker 3: been arrested. She's not coming home, and she's been arrested
32:35
Speaker 3: for drug smuggling. And I remember thinking in that moment, oh,
32:42
Speaker 3: it's all a big mistake, like she would get allergies,
32:45
Speaker 3: and I knew, like Japan, they were very strict on
32:48
Speaker 3: what medications you can bring into the country. So I thought,
32:52
Speaker 3: maybe she's taken some of her allergy steroids and that's
32:57
Speaker 3: what it is. It's all just a big mistakes. No
33:00
Speaker 3: way Mom would ever be involved in anything to do
33:03
Speaker 3: with drugs. This is all a big mistake. And I
33:06
Speaker 3: asked Dad, is it her medication? And I didn't want
33:10
Speaker 3: to know any details beyond yes or no, so he
33:14
Speaker 3: just said no, it's not.
33:16
Speaker 4: Yeah.
33:17
Speaker 3: That's when he said she had one point eight kilograms
33:22
Speaker 3: of methamphetamine. And that's where it was really confusing, because
33:28
Speaker 3: we were all kind of like, how did this happen?
33:30
Speaker 3: Because we know mum, and you know the person who
33:34
Speaker 3: raises you. You know that they're totally against drugs, like
33:38
Speaker 3: their life's work has been helping the people affected by
33:43
Speaker 3: drugs and alcohol. So we were kind of like, how
33:46
Speaker 3: did this happen? I just had a weird feeling. I
33:50
Speaker 3: just thought, Okay, it's Kelly. It's got to be Kelly.
33:54
Speaker 3: So that's when I didn't speak to him again after
33:57
Speaker 3: that moment. I blocked him because I thought, Oh, this
33:59
Speaker 3: man's in some really bad stuff.
34:02
Speaker 2: It was shocking for them to hear that Donna had
34:05
Speaker 2: been arrested at the Tokyo Airport for the possession of methanphetamine.
34:09
Speaker 2: This was their same mother who had devoted years to
34:12
Speaker 2: helping her community combat the harms of addiction. Donna had
34:16
Speaker 2: also carefully planned what medications she even brought on the trip,
34:21
Speaker 2: knowing full well that Japan's drug laws are notoriously strict.
34:26
Speaker 2: Ashley said she knew immediately that Kelly was somehow behind this.
34:31
Speaker 2: Many details would come out later during Donna's trial, including
34:34
Speaker 2: something that happened during Donna's three day layover in Laos
34:38
Speaker 2: before flying to Tokyo.
34:41
Speaker 3: So she was in Laos for three days and he
34:44
Speaker 3: told her that she needed to stay there for three
34:47
Speaker 3: days because it was the holiday period and there weren't
34:52
Speaker 3: many flight options. They were like really busy, it's like
34:55
Speaker 3: the busy period or whatever, And that's why she stayed
34:59
Speaker 3: in Laos three days and then ended up going to Japan.
35:03
Speaker 3: But really, he had someone meet her in Laos at
35:06
Speaker 3: her hotel, and he was a business partner of Kelly's.
35:11
Speaker 1: And why did Kelly need a business partner of his
35:15
Speaker 1: to meet this woman that he's been dating at her hotel?
35:20
Speaker 3: So there were discussions that mum was having with Kelly
35:24
Speaker 3: that we found out during the trial where they were
35:28
Speaker 3: talking about he needed a certain type of suitcase for
35:31
Speaker 3: his business. He was expanding his clothing design business to
35:36
Speaker 3: include a line of suitcases and the specific type of
35:41
Speaker 3: one he needed. Mum tried looking for one in Australia,
35:46
Speaker 3: but apparently there were none that were what he wanted.
35:51
Speaker 3: Then he said, oh, I will figure it out, and
35:54
Speaker 3: he ended up getting his business partner in Laos to
35:59
Speaker 3: take a suit suitcase to Mum and said, like, put
36:04
Speaker 3: all of your stuff into this suitcase and get rid
36:08
Speaker 3: of your own and bring this with you. And the
36:12
Speaker 3: tricky part about the suitcase is firstly the timing of
36:17
Speaker 3: when they brought it to Mum. She had like fifteen
36:20
Speaker 3: minutes to leave the hotel and get to the airport
36:25
Speaker 3: to check in for her flight. So she's like flustered
36:28
Speaker 3: and she just wants to just get on her flight.
36:32
Speaker 3: And this guy brings the suitcase and it had some
36:36
Speaker 3: fabrics like clothing in there that Mum and Kelly hadn't discussed,
36:42
Speaker 3: and so instead of Mum being able to examine the
36:46
Speaker 3: suitcase on its own, it's like the clothing was put
36:50
Speaker 3: in there to distract her and get her to.
36:52
Speaker 4: Focus on that instead of the suitcase itself.
36:55
Speaker 1: Because she did open it up and look.
36:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, and when she looked at the clothing, she called
37:02
Speaker 3: Kelly and said, what is this clothing doing inside the suitcase?
37:06
Speaker 3: We didn't discuss any clothing, and he said, these are
37:10
Speaker 3: samples from my business. Please bring them with you. And
37:15
Speaker 3: so she kind of like lifted the clothing, looked in it,
37:18
Speaker 3: didn't see anything of concern. She tried to examine the
37:21
Speaker 3: suitcase a bit and didn't see anything concerning. So she
37:27
Speaker 3: just put her things into the suitcase and quickly got
37:31
Speaker 3: into a taxi and went to the airport.
37:34
Speaker 2: Donna's family knew their mother was in big legal trouble
37:38
Speaker 2: in a foreign country. Once again, Ashley sprang into action,
37:43
Speaker 2: collecting information that she thought might be useful for her
37:46
Speaker 2: mother's case. She gathered email correspondence between her mother and
37:50
Speaker 2: Kelly and any other documents she could think of that
37:53
Speaker 2: might help prove that Donna was an upstanding person who
37:56
Speaker 2: just trusted the wrong guy. They also needed legal help.
38:01
Speaker 2: Ashley said she just googled English speaking lawyers in Japan
38:05
Speaker 2: and eventually found a firm that would take the case.
38:09
Speaker 2: And that is when more details started to come out,
38:11
Speaker 2: such as how the drugs were expertly hidden inside the suitcase.
38:17
Speaker 3: So the suitcase had like little grooves, you know how
38:21
Speaker 3: you get the ones with the grooves.
38:23
Speaker 4: On the end.
38:25
Speaker 3: And the drugs were like finger shaped little lengths in
38:32
Speaker 3: plastic and they were in the grooves. So even if
38:37
Speaker 3: you are to press down and feel all around the suitcase,
38:41
Speaker 3: you're not going to figure what's in those grooves.
38:44
Speaker 4: Right, it was really well hidden.
38:47
Speaker 1: Really well hidden, and your mom even went through the
38:50
Speaker 1: contents of the suitcase. But like, how could she have
38:53
Speaker 1: ever known how much time does Donnas spend from the
38:58
Speaker 1: moment that she's seeking into custody to the trial.
39:03
Speaker 3: So she was taken into custody on the fourth of
39:07
Speaker 3: January twenty twenty.
39:09
Speaker 4: Three, and her trial began with November twenty twenty four.
39:15
Speaker 3: From the moment mum was arrested up until she testified
39:19
Speaker 3: in her trial, which started on a Thursday, I feel
39:24
Speaker 3: like it was the nineteenth or twentieth of November. As
39:29
Speaker 3: soon as Mum finished her testimony, that's when the communication
39:33
Speaker 3: ban was lifted and we could finally communicate with our mum.
39:38
Speaker 4: So that whole time.
39:39
Speaker 3: We weren't allowed to write to her, speak to her anything.
39:44
Speaker 1: And am I understanding correctly, that's twenty three months.
39:50
Speaker 3: So the first time where seeing her, hearing her voice,
39:54
Speaker 3: having any sort of interaction with her is looking on
40:00
Speaker 3: with her when we're seeing her in her trial.
40:03
Speaker 4: And even then.
40:05
Speaker 3: The girls weren't allowed to hug Mum or even say
40:08
Speaker 3: anything to her. It was kind of like a hello,
40:12
Speaker 3: because you can get in trouble like Mum can get
40:14
Speaker 3: in trouble, so it was sort of secretly like miming
40:21
Speaker 3: I love you and hoping that the judges don't see.
40:26
Speaker 2: Donna was fifty eight years old at the time of
40:29
Speaker 2: her trial. She'd already spent almost a year in jail
40:32
Speaker 2: in Japan, unable to speak to or see her loved ones.
40:36
Speaker 2: Her family flew to Japan for the trial, and they
40:39
Speaker 2: were hopeful. They felt strongly that they could prove Donna
40:42
Speaker 2: had absolutely no idea about the drugs and the suitcase
40:46
Speaker 2: she'd been tricked.
40:48
Speaker 3: One of the customs officers being interviewed he had about
40:53
Speaker 3: twenty years of experience in the job, and they asked him, you,
40:59
Speaker 3: with all your experience looking at this suitcase, would you
41:04
Speaker 3: have been able to tell that there were drugs inside
41:07
Speaker 3: this suitcase? Not lifting it up, but by looking at it,
41:11
Speaker 3: would you have been able to know?
41:13
Speaker 4: And his answer was no.
41:16
Speaker 1: How did the Japanese court see it?
41:20
Speaker 4: Well?
41:21
Speaker 3: When they delivered their verdict, they admitted that Mum was
41:24
Speaker 3: the victim of a romance scam, and they also said
41:28
Speaker 3: that because she had been tricked by Kelly, her potential husband,
41:35
Speaker 3: that she deserved sympathy, and that's why they gave her
41:40
Speaker 3: a six year sentence, because realistically she was facing at
41:45
Speaker 3: least twenty But they also said she ignored red flags
41:50
Speaker 3: as well, so I think that's where they based that
41:55
Speaker 3: verdict on, is.
41:58
Speaker 4: Her ignoring red flags their opinion.
42:02
Speaker 1: What did it feel like to hear that verdict?
42:06
Speaker 4: It was very very hard.
42:10
Speaker 3: So in the courtroom everything spoken in Japanese, but there
42:13
Speaker 3: was a translator there for Mum's benefit, and so Mum
42:17
Speaker 3: had like a earpiece on and the translator had an
42:21
Speaker 3: earpiece on, and she was speaking very very softly. But
42:27
Speaker 3: I heard six years and something to the equivalent of
42:34
Speaker 3: ten thousand dollars in a fine. I didn't really register
42:39
Speaker 3: at the time because the talking kept continuing, and then
42:43
Speaker 3: I saw all of the media jump up and rush out.
42:48
Speaker 4: So I looked at my husband and asked, what is it.
42:53
Speaker 3: He said six years and he had to rush out
42:56
Speaker 3: to quickly notify the rest of the family before that
43:00
Speaker 3: found out through the media. So I was in there
43:03
Speaker 3: watching mum trying to take in all this information, which
43:08
Speaker 3: was really hard.
43:09
Speaker 4: She had her head down on the desk and was crying.
43:14
Speaker 3: And when she was leaving, I kind of mind to her,
43:19
Speaker 3: don't worry, we'll get you home, and she just cried
43:23
Speaker 3: and added, but my grandchildren, I think the thought of
43:29
Speaker 3: you six years for such little people, They're going to
43:32
Speaker 3: be completely different people by the time she gets to
43:34
Speaker 3: see them. And that was the hardest thing for her
43:38
Speaker 3: to take in. It was just a real shock. I
43:42
Speaker 3: felt like it wasn't right. I was worried about how
43:48
Speaker 3: she was going to cope, Is her health going to
43:51
Speaker 3: be okay?
43:53
Speaker 4: And it was just very difficult.
43:55
Speaker 1: What are her conditions in prison? What is her d
44:00
Speaker 1: to day life like there right now?
44:03
Speaker 3: At the moment, I believe she's in her we like
44:07
Speaker 3: to say room. We don't like to say anything else,
44:11
Speaker 3: but she's in her room for twenty three and a
44:15
Speaker 3: half hours per day. She showers twice a week, and
44:22
Speaker 3: at this stage, because she's now changed from a detainee
44:25
Speaker 3: to a sentenced prisoner. She's undertaking some type of work
44:32
Speaker 3: in there, which from what I understand, is done.
44:36
Speaker 4: In her room.
44:38
Speaker 3: We're hoping that she gets to interact with others. We're
44:41
Speaker 3: not too sure on that at this point, because it's
44:44
Speaker 3: the transition to being a sentence prisoner is a new one.
44:50
Speaker 3: So we depend heavily on consular updates to know how
44:53
Speaker 3: mum's doing because we don't get phone calls or anything
44:58
Speaker 3: like that. So when we're say the letter from her,
45:01
Speaker 3: it's usually about three weeks after she's written a letter,
45:05
Speaker 3: so we never really know how she's doing in real
45:07
Speaker 3: time unless the consular officers have been able to visit.
45:12
Speaker 1: So as it stands today, when is your mother's release date?
45:19
Speaker 3: Her projected release date is early February twenty twenty nine.
45:25
Speaker 2: Donna's lawyers filed an appeal, but it was denied. Ashley
45:29
Speaker 2: and Crystal say they've never been able to speak to
45:32
Speaker 2: their mother on the phone. The only way to reach
45:34
Speaker 2: her are through letters that take weeks to travel between
45:37
Speaker 2: Japan and Australia, or through rare in person visits. Before this,
45:43
Speaker 2: they've never even heard of an elder drug mule scam.
45:47
Speaker 2: But since their mother's case, they've learned about others people
45:51
Speaker 2: lured in by online romance, unknowingly used to transport drugs,
45:56
Speaker 2: now serving sentences in foreign prisons. Their family left behind
46:01
Speaker 2: desperate to figure out how to help. Meanwhile, the people
46:05
Speaker 2: who orchestrated it, all the ones who set the trap,
46:09
Speaker 2: are long gone. As far as we know, Kelly or
46:13
Speaker 2: Rex or whoever he is, has never faced any legal consequences.
46:19
Speaker 3: Is he in Japan, is he in Nigeria? Is he
46:22
Speaker 3: in one of these other places that he had invited mum.
46:26
Speaker 4: To go to.
46:28
Speaker 3: There were potential sightings of Kelly in Hong Kong after
46:33
Speaker 3: a reporter started doing an investigation, but we're not sure
46:37
Speaker 3: if anything came of that and if it is him.
46:42
Speaker 3: But yeah, as far as we know, he hasn't been
46:45
Speaker 3: held accountable for anything, and he's just free to find
46:49
Speaker 3: his next victims. Because we do know Mum wasn't the
46:54
Speaker 3: only person he was speaking to. There were at least
46:57
Speaker 3: two other women, even in the US, that he was
47:00
Speaker 3: speaking to.
47:02
Speaker 1: How did you learn that?
47:04
Speaker 3: Through the lawyers they had reviewed evidence on Mum's phone
47:09
Speaker 3: where he had accidentally screenshotted information and sent it to
47:16
Speaker 3: Mum and it was it showed a name and it
47:21
Speaker 3: said I think it was a name, age and location
47:25
Speaker 3: and it was for two women that were texting him.
47:29
Speaker 3: So it's like text notifications and said, just say Donna
47:36
Speaker 3: fifty seven or fifty eight in Australia. Even going back
47:43
Speaker 3: to the Hong Kong part where there was a reporter
47:48
Speaker 3: who went over there. So he went there to meet
47:51
Speaker 3: with an Australian priest who helps women in the same
47:56
Speaker 3: sort of situation.
47:57
Speaker 4: He's like a prison chaplain.
48:00
Speaker 3: He had met this reporter and he had a photo
48:05
Speaker 3: of Kelly that he took into the women's prison and
48:09
Speaker 3: showed it to some of the inmates there. And there
48:12
Speaker 3: were several inmates there who said that this was the
48:18
Speaker 3: person that they dealt with and they're in prison in
48:22
Speaker 3: Hong Kong for drug smuggling.
48:24
Speaker 1: Wow. So he has many victims.
48:28
Speaker 3: Yes, and it seems in various locations throughout the world.
48:33
Speaker 1: Wow, that is just unbelievable. So are there any other
48:38
Speaker 1: sort of legal avenues or ways to potentially try to
48:43
Speaker 1: appeal Dona's conviction.
48:45
Speaker 3: At this point, Mum has waived her right to a
48:49
Speaker 3: second appeal to the Supreme court. The reasons being is
48:53
Speaker 3: because there's only a zero point three percent chance of success.
49:00
Speaker 3: They don't accept, they don't accept new evidence.
49:05
Speaker 1: I'm wondering just because I feel like the story is
49:10
Speaker 1: so compelling. I think, because your mom did nothing wrong
49:14
Speaker 1: and is this beloved member of her family and her community,
49:17
Speaker 1: and yet she's in this unimaginable situation. And there are
49:22
Speaker 1: many victims of a crime like this. She is at
49:25
Speaker 1: the center. But of course her family who now misses her.
49:28
Speaker 1: How do you for your children, who are growing really
49:32
Speaker 1: quickly while she is in custody in Japan? How do
49:36
Speaker 1: you sort of keep her presence active in their minds
49:42
Speaker 1: during this time.
49:45
Speaker 3: So my daughter, she's five now, obviously she doesn't understand
49:50
Speaker 3: or doesn't have any awareness of where her grandmother is
49:54
Speaker 3: and why we tell her that her grandmother works on
49:59
Speaker 3: the planes and she flies around fighting fires and saving lives.
50:05
Speaker 3: So whenever she sees a plane flying over, she's like,
50:08
Speaker 3: good night nanny or good morning nanny. She also would
50:14
Speaker 3: always have these ice creams in her freezer, like these
50:18
Speaker 3: little drumstick ones.
50:20
Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have them.
50:21
Speaker 1: Like we're.
50:23
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, So those used to be Mum's favorite
50:29
Speaker 3: ice creams, and her freezer was always stocked with them,
50:32
Speaker 3: and my daughter, whenever she'd go to mum's house, would
50:35
Speaker 3: go straight to the freezer and grab one. So whenever
50:40
Speaker 3: my daughter's not home and I happen to have been
50:43
Speaker 3: at the shops, I'll bring those back and put them
50:47
Speaker 3: in our freezer and we just sort of say, oh,
50:50
Speaker 3: Nanny's been passed and she's dropped off some ice creams
50:53
Speaker 3: for you. We play videos for her, we show her photos,
51:00
Speaker 3: always writes letters, and in the letters, she'll include like
51:05
Speaker 3: two pages that are sketches that she's done for the
51:10
Speaker 3: two little kids, and it will be like Lilo and
51:13
Speaker 3: Stitch or Spider Man, or she'll always do a drawing
51:17
Speaker 3: with their names on it for them.
51:19
Speaker 4: So it's a special treat that they get to have.
51:22
Speaker 3: I think something that's a little bit sad, and it
51:25
Speaker 3: makes Mum sad as well, is whenever there's an eyelash
51:31
Speaker 3: and you have to blow it and make a wish,
51:32
Speaker 3: or when you blow out a candle and make a wish,
51:35
Speaker 3: or there's a shooting star. My daughter's wish is always
51:39
Speaker 3: I wish Nannie could come home.
51:41
Speaker 4: Now as she gets.
51:44
Speaker 3: Older, like, I really hope that we can have Mum
51:47
Speaker 3: home as soon as we can have her home, because
51:49
Speaker 3: I don't know how I would explain what the situation
51:54
Speaker 3: is to her. I think it would break her little
51:58
Speaker 3: heart to understand and where her grandmother is.
52:03
Speaker 4: And Mum also has an older grandson.
52:06
Speaker 3: He's sixteen, so it's obviously he knows exactly what's going on,
52:12
Speaker 3: and he's got to deal with, you know, seeing the
52:15
Speaker 3: media stuff. He understands that all of that stuff is
52:19
Speaker 3: really good for Mum's situation because it highlights her case.
52:23
Speaker 3: It keeps her in the public eye sort of thing,
52:29
Speaker 3: and applies the pressure where he needs to be applied.
52:31
Speaker 3: But he still goes to school where his nan used
52:35
Speaker 3: to drop him off and pick him up every day
52:38
Speaker 3: and they'd have their own time. And he doesn't have her,
52:43
Speaker 3: hasn't had her in almost three years now.
52:48
Speaker 1: How is she holding up in all of this?
52:51
Speaker 4: She's the strongest person I know.
52:54
Speaker 3: And when all of this started, if I was to
53:01
Speaker 3: have known that she'd still be not home by this time,
53:07
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have thought she'd still be the same her
53:10
Speaker 3: that we know and love. But she's really focused on
53:14
Speaker 3: her Christianity and her walk with God. That's given her
53:17
Speaker 3: a lot of strength. It's helped her that she can
53:22
Speaker 3: now have letters, because up until December last year, she
53:26
Speaker 3: wasn't able to have any letters. She's somebody who always
53:32
Speaker 3: thinks of others, and as hard as this situation is
53:37
Speaker 3: for her, she doesn't think of it like that. She
53:41
Speaker 3: thinks of how hard it is for us. She thinks
53:44
Speaker 3: of the other women who are her neighbors over there
53:47
Speaker 3: and how hard it is for them. She thinks about
53:51
Speaker 3: how they may not get to have visitors, they may
53:56
Speaker 3: not be sent money for food items. Like she is said,
54:01
Speaker 3: She's always looking at well, this person has it worse
54:05
Speaker 3: than me.
54:06
Speaker 4: She's just such a strong person.
54:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's you know, I think people like
54:13
Speaker 1: her'll make everybody want to be better. It's like being
54:17
Speaker 1: able to think of others when you're in that situation.
54:19
Speaker 1: And it's definitely palpable how important she is to everyone
54:25
Speaker 1: who knows her. And you know, her story is so
54:28
Speaker 1: important because of the I think increasing prevalence of scams
54:34
Speaker 1: like this, and you know, there's a lot of shame
54:37
Speaker 1: that some people carry when this happens to them. And
54:40
Speaker 1: it's like these con artists, they do a really good
54:44
Speaker 1: job finding out what is important to someone and praying
54:48
Speaker 1: on that.
54:53
Speaker 2: Ugh, this episode was so heartbreaking to me.
54:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no silver lining in these moments, but it
55:00
Speaker 1: was one of those interviews where I was glad they
55:02
Speaker 1: were together, Ashley and Crystal, which we typically don't do.
55:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, they told the story really well together, and I
55:09
Speaker 2: mean there are only two of her five daughters, so
55:12
Speaker 2: it was really they were representing her family. But you know,
55:16
Speaker 2: we had been wanting to tell a story like this
55:18
Speaker 2: for a while because we heard about this elder drug
55:23
Speaker 2: mule scam a couple years ago and thought that it
55:27
Speaker 2: would be a great story, especially because I just feel
55:29
Speaker 2: like a lot of people don't know about this.
55:32
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't know about it, and we're
55:34
Speaker 1: in this. I feel like maybe it's just our age
55:38
Speaker 1: group or our generation right now, where our parents are
55:42
Speaker 1: aging and technology has changed so quickly that you know, recently,
55:47
Speaker 1: I even told a story on here about a very
55:49
Speaker 1: small time scam my grandpa almost got caught up in.
55:52
Speaker 1: And so it's like, I just have to imagine our
55:56
Speaker 1: listenership maybe know someone who could potentially be you know,
56:02
Speaker 1: someone who's targeted for a scam like this yeah, which
56:05
Speaker 1: is really scary.
56:06
Speaker 2: Totally and there was a bright spot in this otherwise
56:11
Speaker 2: heartbreaking story. We actually ended up cutting it out for time,
56:14
Speaker 2: but we wanted to mention it. Ashley and Crystal told
56:17
Speaker 2: us that there is this American woman who lives in
56:20
Speaker 2: Tokyo who had heard about Donna's story. She'd never met
56:24
Speaker 2: Donna before, but now she goes and regularly visits her
56:28
Speaker 2: in prison, which I think is so sweet.
56:31
Speaker 1: It's so sweet, and it has to just feel so
56:34
Speaker 1: good for Donna to have someone there in this place
56:37
Speaker 1: that she's so unfamiliar with, where she doesn't speak the language.
56:40
Speaker 1: Ye visit her, you know, show her support in person,
56:45
Speaker 1: and also, you know, to then be able to communicate
56:49
Speaker 1: with Donna's family, Hey, I saw her today. You know,
56:52
Speaker 1: just that someone laid eyes on her has to just be.
56:55
Speaker 2: So nice to hear. Absolutely.
56:57
Speaker 1: Ashley said something in the interview that I just think
57:00
Speaker 1: is so insightful, and that is that seeing someone on
57:03
Speaker 1: FaceTime or you know, any sort of visual like zoom
57:07
Speaker 1: these days, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're credible or
57:11
Speaker 1: that they're legit. And I think that maybe ten years
57:14
Speaker 1: ago that's kind of the stories we were hearing about
57:17
Speaker 1: online dating scams was oh, he could never FaceTime. His
57:21
Speaker 1: face time was always frozen or his computer didn't work.
57:23
Speaker 1: And that doesn't always now act as like a gauge
57:29
Speaker 1: of whether or not someone is actually who they say
57:31
Speaker 1: they are, because you can get on FaceTime and you
57:33
Speaker 1: can still be lying about everything.
57:34
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the red flags to look out for. It
57:39
Speaker 2: feels like a game of whack a mole, like it's
57:41
Speaker 2: always changing. Because Ashley talked about warning her mom about
57:46
Speaker 2: all the common red flags that she would think of
57:49
Speaker 2: to warn someone, like don't give out your bank account information,
57:52
Speaker 2: but none of that actually ended up being very relevant
57:55
Speaker 2: in this case because the red flags were so different,
57:58
Speaker 2: and it made me think of this other their story.
58:01
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I actually want to touch on that for
58:02
Speaker 1: a second, because also one thing that stuck out to
58:06
Speaker 1: me is like, Okay, you're traveling to Japan just like
58:10
Speaker 1: they were. I would have my own hesitations about a
58:13
Speaker 1: family member traveling alone to a foreign country to meet
58:15
Speaker 1: someone that they'd so far only met online. However, it's
58:20
Speaker 1: like Ghana had traveled internationally before to meet someone she'd
58:24
Speaker 1: met online and that person was who they said they were,
58:27
Speaker 1: and even though it doesn't totally calm your fears. I
58:30
Speaker 1: think it reinforces the idea that that's possible, that you're
58:33
Speaker 1: not necessarily being scammed.
58:35
Speaker 2: Right, It's possible to date someone in a different country
58:38
Speaker 2: and it not be a scam. Yes, of course. Yeah,
58:41
Speaker 2: So there was this other case. There's multiple, but I
58:45
Speaker 2: wanted to touch on this other case. It's actually from
58:47
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, but this man named Ralph Souls was caught
58:51
Speaker 2: in a very similar type of scheme. He was seventy
58:54
Speaker 2: four years old at the time, and he was caught
58:57
Speaker 2: transporting methamphetamine into New Zealand, was arrested and then spent
59:01
Speaker 2: eighteen months in custody. He ended up getting out. You know,
59:04
Speaker 2: it also depends on what country you're in and what
59:06
Speaker 2: their laws are around this. But what happened with him
59:10
Speaker 2: was that he met someone online who said that he
59:13
Speaker 2: wanted to invest in his business and they started chatting
59:17
Speaker 2: became friends essentially, is what Ralph thought. So this man
59:22
Speaker 2: said his name was Laurence Green, which was not his
59:25
Speaker 2: real name, and in twenty thirteen, Ralph got on a
59:28
Speaker 2: plane for Johannesburg, South Africa to meet Green in order
59:32
Speaker 2: to set up some big accounts to start this business.
59:34
Speaker 2: As soon as he got there, he got a message
59:36
Speaker 2: from Green saying, actually, oh, I had to leave for Fiji.
59:40
Speaker 2: I'm on vacation in Fiji. Can you meet me there?
59:44
Speaker 2: And it was a very similar thing to this story.
59:47
Speaker 2: He said, Oh, and by the way, I have this suitcase.
59:50
Speaker 2: Do you mind grabbing it and bringing it with you.
59:53
Speaker 2: Ralph also open the suitcase, looked through it, didn't see
59:56
Speaker 2: anything suspicious, but of course there were drugs in the
59:59
Speaker 2: lining of the suit that he didn't know about, and
1:00:01
Speaker 2: so that is how he was tricked and caught. And
1:00:06
Speaker 2: you know, fortunately he didn't have a longer sentence, But
1:00:09
Speaker 2: eighteen months is still a long time, and for children
1:00:12
Speaker 2: whose parents are in prison abroad is just a nightmare.
1:00:15
Speaker 1: Eighteen months is a long time to be anywhere that's
1:00:18
Speaker 1: not home, and to think of your parent in prison
1:00:23
Speaker 1: and their seventies in a foreign country is like terrorizing.
1:00:27
Speaker 1: And you know, this idea, like Donna looked through the suitcase,
1:00:31
Speaker 1: Ralph looked through the suitcase. Even that is like, I
1:00:34
Speaker 1: think so wise of both of them to have done that,
1:00:38
Speaker 1: because if I was so trusting of someone, felt like
1:00:41
Speaker 1: I was so connected to someone to meet them in
1:00:44
Speaker 1: another foreign country. I don't know that I would have
1:00:47
Speaker 1: even thought to do that. And so the fact that,
1:00:50
Speaker 1: like you still have people being cautious and still this
1:00:54
Speaker 1: is happening just shows you how seasoned these con artists are.
1:00:59
Speaker 1: I mean, this is like organ crime totally, and it's
1:01:02
Speaker 1: so sad. I mean eighteen months of someone's life, that's
1:01:05
Speaker 1: a long time.
1:01:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the red flags look out for, I
1:01:08
Speaker 2: guess now, and these cases are like, don't ever bring
1:01:11
Speaker 2: a suitcase across international lines or any object that's not
1:01:15
Speaker 2: yours that you don't know what it is.
1:01:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, this idea that someone wants to
1:01:20
Speaker 1: invest in your business is like that could be perfectly plausible. However,
1:01:24
Speaker 1: if they were requiring you to fly across the world
1:01:27
Speaker 1: to open bank accounts, if they're not showing up where
1:01:31
Speaker 1: they said they would be and wanting you to go
1:01:32
Speaker 1: to another country, It's like, if someone is that serious,
1:01:37
Speaker 1: you can always take a beat. If they disappear, then
1:01:41
Speaker 1: that's for the best.
1:01:42
Speaker 2: It's like that classic scam, the way scammers make you
1:01:46
Speaker 2: feel that you're going to miss out unless you act now.
1:01:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, this sense of urgency all the time. Yeah, and
1:01:52
Speaker 1: these wild stories like imagine even going to LAX, like
1:01:57
Speaker 1: saying you would be at LAX and then just not
1:01:59
Speaker 1: go and leaving someone stranded there to figure something out,
1:02:02
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't sleep. I'd be so stressed to do
1:02:05
Speaker 1: that to someone.
1:02:06
Speaker 2: Well, this is why you're not a scammer. Yeah, I never.
1:02:10
Speaker 2: You don't have the personality for it, Thank goodness. Seriously,
1:02:14
Speaker 2: you looked up some twenty twenty three stats about elder fraud, right.
1:02:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's pretty staggering. So this is all according
1:02:22
Speaker 1: to a report released by the FBI in twenty twenty
1:02:26
Speaker 1: three scams targeting people aged sixty and older, the average
1:02:31
Speaker 1: victim of elder fraud lost over thirty thousand dollars, which
1:02:36
Speaker 1: is so much money. And you know, oftentimes that's when
1:02:39
Speaker 1: people are done working or close to being done working,
1:02:43
Speaker 1: and they're relying on that savings and so the impact
1:02:46
Speaker 1: on their life can be pretty astronomical. And in total,
1:02:50
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three alone, victims of elder fraud and
1:02:53
Speaker 1: this is in the US, lost a total of three
1:02:56
Speaker 1: point four billion dollars.
1:02:59
Speaker 2: Wow, that's why.
1:03:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's wild. And there are so many different types
1:03:03
Speaker 1: of elder fraud, but the main one is tech support
1:03:07
Speaker 1: scams like that could be a pop up on your
1:03:09
Speaker 1: computer saying you need to fill this out right now,
1:03:12
Speaker 1: or someone calling and saying you know, this is so
1:03:15
Speaker 1: and so from your bank or whatever. They're finding you digitally. Yeah,
1:03:21
Speaker 1: and that is a tricky thing, I think, especially if
1:03:25
Speaker 1: you're elderly. But even now, I know people in my
1:03:27
Speaker 1: own age group that have gotten these phone calls. Oh yeah,
1:03:31
Speaker 1: I know people are falling for them because they're very believable.
1:03:35
Speaker 2: Totally believable.
1:03:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's investment scams is the costliest to victims typically,
1:03:42
Speaker 1: But good advice for everyone is that if you know
1:03:45
Speaker 1: someone who think might be susceptible to these kinds of scams,
1:03:49
Speaker 1: you can just encourage them to never give up any
1:03:51
Speaker 1: personal information. If someone says they're calling from your bank,
1:03:55
Speaker 1: hang up and call your bank up absolutely, and not
1:03:57
Speaker 1: at the number they called you on.
1:03:58
Speaker 2: If someone says, I just is you to confirm some information,
1:04:03
Speaker 2: there's no reason why that would ever happen. You would
1:04:05
Speaker 2: never have to give out any personal information to someone
1:04:08
Speaker 2: who's calling you who supposedly already has your information. Yeah,
1:04:12
Speaker 2: that's just never needed. Yeah, don't send money to anybody
1:04:15
Speaker 2: you don't know. And if you haven't met them in
1:04:17
Speaker 2: person and they're telling you, you know, a chaotic story
1:04:22
Speaker 2: and telling you what they need this money right now,
1:04:24
Speaker 2: it's still okay to take a beat. Yeah, maybe call.
1:04:27
Speaker 1: Someone else and get their opinion on it. I've heard
1:04:30
Speaker 1: stories of bank tellers refusing to cash checks in certain
1:04:34
Speaker 1: instances where they think someone's being scammed, And I don't
1:04:37
Speaker 1: know exactly what their authority is or how often that's happening.
1:04:41
Speaker 1: I doubt there's like stats on it, but I mean
1:04:44
Speaker 1: that has to be a hard job for them if
1:04:45
Speaker 1: they can see it happening in real time too. So
1:04:48
Speaker 1: I actually tried to pay someone on Facebook marketplace over
1:04:52
Speaker 1: Zell a couple weeks ago, and it just wouldn't let me.
1:04:55
Speaker 2: It was like, no, they're really trying to crack down
1:04:57
Speaker 2: on scams.
1:04:58
Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah, but I was there trying to like
1:05:01
Speaker 1: buy a tow here.
1:05:03
Speaker 2: This is real.
1:05:04
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah.
1:05:05
Speaker 2: I feel like a good rule of thumb if you
1:05:07
Speaker 2: get a scam call is just like you said, just say,
1:05:11
Speaker 2: I got to call you right back. Get their name,
1:05:13
Speaker 2: their employer, and their number. Yeah, and if they get
1:05:16
Speaker 2: weird about that, it's a red flag.
1:05:18
Speaker 1: Red flag or I would just hang up and like
1:05:21
Speaker 1: they'll call back if it's important, and even then you
1:05:23
Speaker 1: can just google the number totally.
1:05:26
Speaker 2: Well, that's our episode for today. Thanks for listening. We'll
1:05:28
Speaker 2: see you next week.
1:05:33
Speaker 1: If you have a story for us, we would love
1:05:35
Speaker 1: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia
1:05:38
Speaker 1: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
1:05:40
Speaker 1: the Knife Podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
1:05:44
Speaker 2: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
1:05:47
Speaker 2: by me Hannah Smith.
1:05:48
Speaker 4: And me Paysha Ey.
1:05:49
Speaker 1: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
1:05:53
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
1:05:55
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
1:05:57
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
1:06:00
Speaker 1: Artwork by Vanessa Lilac.
1:06:01
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.