Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Jeff Clark and the Patchwork Quilt

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Guest: Jeff Clark and the Patchwork Quilt · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Clark, the author of the children's book, the patchwork quilt. Beautifully illustrated, this book explains the story of a quilt that gets torn up into pieces, and each of the pieces of the quilt have a new role to play, but ultimately learn to work together and become a patchwork quilt. It's a beautiful metaphor that explains dissociative identity disorder to outside kids and internal littles. Though I planned to interview Jeff, what I did not plan on was the beautiful love story that he would share regarding his relationship with his wife and their journey through their own discovery and understanding of his wife's diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder. I did also speak to his wife.
• 2:01
  While I don't air that on the podcast, I did have her permission to share his version of her story. It's pretty special. Welcome, Jeff Clark.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Definitely. This is really a story about me and my wife and my family. You know, it's definitely a collective story. My wife and I have been together for about twenty three years. We've been married.
• 2:33
  And we we we dated for about six years before that. So, you know, we were high school sweethearts.
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: That's so sweet.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: It it it is. It was very much one of those fairy tale kind of romances where she actually was was dating one of my friends. Yes. And I I really, really liked her, but, you know, I had I always had said, you know, no. No.
• 3:02
  No. You know, she's with you. She's with you. And, well, when they broke up, we started going out shortly thereafter.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Wow. What a story.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's she had actually had been she'd actually been sick for quite some time, and the school district in the area was homeschooling her. I guess that you'd call it homeschooling. They had a teacher that they would send out to to kids that were homebound.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: And yes. And then the the the teacher would go around to them. And, you know, I, you know, I had met her and just found her absolutely fabulously interesting. And I also thought, wow. This is this has got to be, you know, so boring, so sad, so lonely, you know, not to have the interactions and be out with with, you know, everyone else at school.
• 4:03
  So I actually started going
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: you.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: What's that?
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: You checked on her, didn't you?
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, I did. So I started started going over to her house every day after school and bringing bringing a a scrabble board, and we would sit and play scrabble.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: So that was, I guess you would say, our courting for a while. And then her health improved where she started being able to come in for some classes. When we actually started to I'm doing air quotes here. I know everyone can't see that. When we actually started to date date was the first time that I ever skipped school.
• 4:53
  She had told me that she needed to talk with me about something. And we went out and we talked and she was she told me that she had been sexually abused.
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: Oh, no.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: And yeah. And so my, you know, my first reaction was, you know, have have you talked with your parents? Have you, you know, talked with authorities? What what are you doing? And, you know, she related that she knew hit something had happened with her biological father, but she didn't know what had happened.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Wow. She was already dissociating.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. You know, I didn't have those words. At that point, I I always took it or in my mind was more of, this is something she doesn't want to talk about. This is this is, you know, something has happened.
• 5:49
  And it's just too much for her. You know? And she she's dealing with it in her own ways. And
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: So you understood it like she didn't wanna talk about it because it was too hard, not yet realizing she literally couldn't talk about it because of the dissociation.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Correct. Correct. And that was it it was interesting because, you know, as we were getting to know know each other and and talking and, you know, those as when you're forming those those relationships, especially early, there's a lot of time just I mean, we spent hours upon hours sitting out on her front porch talking. I was I was always surprised, you know, as we would talk about things, I would bring up, you know, things from pop culture or things from the past, things that, you know, people our age really should have and know as, like, touchstone things.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: And there were so many things that would come up that she would say, no. I I don't remember that. No, you know, I, you know, and she would say, don't remember my childhood. And again, I always took that to mean, oh, I don't want to talk about my childhood. So she started to go to group therapy and I was taking her and I was actually taking her mom too.
• 7:10
  Was going to a group also because there's all kinds of issues that the rest of the family had had to deal with. Right. So I I was their chauffeur for, you know, a a good two years. Wow. And, you know, after about, you know, twelve months in, twenty four months in, started saying, I'm not really sure if if this is helping.
• 7:37
  And then finally, she said, you know, this isn't doing anything for me anymore. It's it's stirring up, you know, more negative within than it is helping. I don't think I need to do this anymore.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: Wow. And that's so common with people with dissociative disorders or trauma anyway, especially when they're not yet being treated for the trauma because Right. Like, there's so many of us that have been through so many therapists or so many different programs trying to find the right help until someone knew what was going on.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. So, you know, at that point she stopped going into therapy. And, you know, we were really kind of moving into another stage of our lives as we were going off to college. She excelled in college.
• 8:31
  She had a four point zero. She was actually the valedictorian. And seemed to be doing very, very well. You know, we went to college at the same same place. And after four years, you know, I I had always I had told her parents and my parents, we wouldn't get married until I had good health insurance and a job that could support us.
• 9:00
  So once we got to that you
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: even got married.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: You you know, the the the interesting thing is there was there's a lot that I hadn't haven't brought up yet because we we did go through a lot. My wife was dealing with a lot of physical problems, which I I kinda touched on earlier that, you know, she was being homeschooled or whatever they whatever they called it through the the the school district.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: The homebound.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Homebound. Yes. Thank you. That she was having lots and lots of very serious health problems. And, you know, looking looking back now on those things, I see them in a very different light than I do now.
• 10:06
  But she had debilitating headaches all of the time and had gone to specialist after specialist. They initially had diagnosed her with they said she had chronic fatigue syndrome. Then they said she had systemic lupus. And then, you know, as we went further down the line, you know, this continued on. After we had graduated from college, after we had gotten married, she was still having these terrible headaches.
• 10:39
  So we started seeing neurosurgeons. And for quite some time, and by quite some time, I mean two years, almost every Friday, we were going to the ER and she was having a spinal tap
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: Wow. To
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: to release fluid and pressure in her head. And that's how bad they were. And that's coming from someone who I had a terrible fear of needles being to the point where, you know, doctors actually had me assisting with the spinal tabs, holding things at one point. So she was going through all of these these physical issues, and they that she had a pseudotumor cerebri, which is, know, essentially looks looks like a a tumor in your brain, but it's not. The long story short of it is they they started putting in all of these different shunts to control the pressure within her head.
• 11:41
  Wow. And quite literally, she had over a hundred different surgeries for revisions replacing and changing these these shunts out over, you know, a three, four year period.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: That's wild. I have a son with a shunt, and we've only had to replace it twice, and he's 10.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Wow. That there there was a a point where, like, almost infamous I mean, my wife and I laugh about it now. But we had been at a Blockbuster video just to to date this story, on a Friday. Had gotten Chinese food, and I looked down and her shirt was wet where the shunt had ruptured and was actually leaking out through an incision. When three weeks later, after she had another revision, literally the exact same thing occurred as we had gone and gotten Chinese food, had gone to Blockbuster Video.
• 12:49
  I looked down at her shirt, and she looked at me. And it was one of those one of those moments of I don't know. I would say euphoria as a feeling because but that's a positive thing. This was like a joining of our minds in this is a terrible, terrible thing, but all we can do is stand here and cry and laugh and blockbuster video because it's happened again. Right.
• 13:14
  So Wow. You know, she she was going through all of these things. And looking at it now, I can't blame the doctors in any way, shape, or form. You know, they have specific trainings and they I don't know if it's a kind of hubris, but people look at things and everybody wants to be able to fix things and tends to see things within whatever lane they drive in.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: So, you know, you you have a you have a broken garbage disposal. You you call the electrician, and he's gonna wanna replace the the motor on on the garbage disposal. You call the the plumber, and he starts working on unclogging the pipes. And that's what I really feel was happening with us is we were seeing these these different specialists. Everyone was coming up with a diagnosis, telling us how they could fix it, and we were going through all the ropes of having them fix it, but none of them really were seeing the real problem.
• 14:20
  And we weren't going to see the problem for another, you know, fourteen, fifteen years. And I only, looking back on it now, can kind of understand it. Wow. So we were going through all of these things with her her physically to the point where they actually did what they called a cerebral decompression where they Yeah. They removed pieces of her of her skull at one point.
• 14:45
  They, you know, did the cerebral decompression. I mean, some pretty pretty heavy duty surgeries.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: That's serious.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, so all of this was going on over a course of, know, call it seven years. And we finally had reached and despite all of that, I would say we had a from our side, you know, our point of view, a very, you know, great life.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: That makes sense too why you would want to make sure you had health insurance before you got married.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. You know, things moved on, after the cerebral decompression, my wife started feeling better. She would still have these headaches, but they as intense as they had been before. And we kind of moved into a new stage of our lives where we had our first daughter, then we had our our second, then we had our son. My wife was an elementary school teacher.
• 15:45
  And when our kids came along, decided that she wanted to home school. Oh, we
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: did that too. It's very intense.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Yes. Very very intense, but, you know, she she put herself into that just as much as she had with her studies and with everything else. And, you know, she she did that for, you know, almost thirteen years And putting her putting her all into it. And, you know, I would always say she she was holding herself to higher standards than anyone else ever would. And looking back on it, you know, I see a lot of other reasons why.
• 16:34
  You know, I can I can see that part of this was a cocooning for protection for herself and for kids also?
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: So then oh, about about three years ago, one of my wife's abusers passed away. And at the same time, my my oldest daughter was reaching puberty. And I know my wife was putting a lot of additional pressures on herself with with the homeschooling. And, you know, for lack of a better word, you know, she had a a breakdown or or maybe a a a breakthrough.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: I love I really, really love how you said that. And as I shared with you before, that's very similar to what happened with us. That we were homeschooling and that was such an intense experience. It was in part to protect our children and in part to protect ourselves. And our parents died and all these other things where we finally we just fell apart.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: I I mean, it's it ultimately what got us help, but in this, I mean, a very parallel way, that's exactly what happened to us.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: It is it's interesting. You know? I I don't know a lot of people with DIDs, but from, you know, my chats with people on on the boards and things like that, it's amazing to me how you know, looking back how many parallels I find in our story and and others. Yeah. You know, from the the, you know, the physical problems that she had to the, you know, hyperfocus, excelling.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: You know, it it's it's very, very interesting to you know, I I see things clearer now than I did as I was living through them. Right.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: You know so much now about what was going on then that you didn't know at that time.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. So so, you know, as this happened, I I very quickly realized that there was more going on. And almost instantly, I knew that this was relating back to her childhood and the abuse from her childhood.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Come from breakdown, the hospital? What where did you figure that out?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: I I I I actually connected that when she had the breakdown. Because quite quite frankly, the the reaction that she had, she barricaded herself herself into a into a corner and was pulling furniture and things over top of herself. And it was one of those instances of, okay. She's she's trying to protect herself from something, and it's not something that she's dealing with in the now.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: In that moment, you could just see.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And and act actually, the my my first reaction, surprisingly, wasn't to call an ambulance or to call the doctors. I called her sister who had gone through the childhood also.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: And
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I I said, you know, I this is what I think is happening. And she's actually in the medical field. She drove out to our house, and and she she was like, we to get her we need to get her in. She's not in a safe place right now mentally.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Now what what I didn't know because, you know, one one of the I I would almost say one of the defining parts of DIDs is is secrecy, now be that internal secrecy or, you know, ends up becoming an external secrecy now because of stigma and things that we are we are trying to change. But her sister actually has DIDs and had been diagnosed with DIDs some time ago. Oh, wow. I never knew that. Never knew that, which, you know, surprised me because we are we are a very close family.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: So at this point in the story, when she's coming over to check on your wife, she had already been diagnosed herself?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yes. She had.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. She had. And quite quite frankly, it's one of those things too where, you know, looking looking back on it, you know, there's there was things and things that she did and behaved that now I see very differently than I would have then. You know? Yeah.
• 21:44
  It it's been a quite an eye opener. So, you know, we we took my wife in. As, you know, I'm sure many of your listeners have dealt with, the mental health facilities can can be some pretty bad places at times.
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: They're so brutal, we need them in emergencies. But trauma specific or they don't know what they're seeing, then they don't get it, and it's really, really causing problems.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: It's very trauma You know, that's the the the ER definitely was the the place. I understand that they didn't have the the tools to to see this or or know what they were dealing with. I mean, quite honestly, you know, my wife didn't know, and she'd been she had been dealing with it for for years upon years upon years. But the, you know, just general mental health, what guidance wasn't there. So she ended up in in a a place that was not was not really good for her.
• 22:57
  It was not a setting that would make her feel safe in any form or fashion. It was mainly a place that worked with people with addictions issues. You know? So there was there was a lot of yelling and a lot of angry people and a lot of doctors who seemed like they were at the end of the ropes from dealing with with yelling and angry people.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: How terrifying.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: And it it was it it was it was a it was a terrifying place for her. You know, it was a honestly, it was a terrifying place for me because it was not where I would want my wife to be. Right. Right. I had a terrible time getting getting any information or, you know, any guidance from these doctors.
• 23:45
  And and quite frankly, some of some of them said things and came across, you know, dealing very just very, very rough. I mean, you know, one one of her doctors described her condition as deja vu, which I I was like, I that that that is not a medical condition condition. What are you what are you talking about? And he said, well, you know, she's she's very dramatic here. And I was like, what what what do you mean?
• 24:15
  And he said, well, I I can see that there's there's dissociation going on with her, but there's a lot of drama in her, which to me either equates to to to how I read that was I I don't believe what's what's going on with your wife. She's just, you know, making a a big scene.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: That was that was that was what the I don't know if that's what he meant, but in the brief five minutes, and literally, that was about the amount of time that I got with him, was five minutes. And the the one nugget that he threw out there was, I know that there's dissociation going on.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: For it. Even though the rest of it was so infuriating and disrespectful, at least you have that word, like a piece to the puzzle.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Exactly. You know
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: explain that or elaborate at all.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: No. No. He didn't. No. He didn't.
• 25:09
  You know? And I I talked I was able to talk with some of the the people that were working there on the floor, and they were they were telling me, 'hey, we're watching over her.' And I was like, what's going on?' They were like, well, she's okay, but she's sitting a lot by herself, and she will only sleep with her bed on the floor against the wall. You know, just lot of they were giving me little tidbits of information. But I very quickly, at that point, was like, okay, I've got to find a way to get her out of here and get her to someplace that is more apt, more able to help her along. So I did work with some other providers in the area.
• 25:58
  And as I mentioned, my my sister-in-law is in the medical field, and she helped steer me in the right direction.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: And I was able to get her transferred to some place that was much, much better suited. And That's
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: amazing. That's really hard to do.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: It it it was. And it was one of those periods where they they kept saying, well, you know, if she can if, you know, if if she makes it through these next two days, then we'll send her home. And I was like, wait. You know, she I don't think home is the right place for her right now as much as that pains me to say.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: You know, home home isn't where where she needs to be, but I sure as heck know she's not supposed to be here.
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: Good for you.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: You know? And, you know, I I finally went in with with the paperwork saying, you know, listen. She she is coming out. She is under my supervision. We're you know, I I'm taking her elsewhere because she cannot stay in this place any longer.
• 27:05
  And I've got it set up that she's going someplace else.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: You're everyone's hero right now for testing her out of there.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: It it was just it was a hard situation, and this this was just making it worse. So we were able to get her to move to someplace else, and they worked with her and she was stabilized. And I had some doctors there who were very helpful. And at that point, no one was saying did's, but, you know, they were saying you know, asking, well, did does she come from an abusive background? Or, you know, what do you know?
• 27:50
  You know, they were giving me little breadcrumbs along the way about what was happening.
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, interesting.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: And it it wasn't until, you know, she got out and was was released and was able to come home. And that was that was a whole another level of trauma because it was you know, she didn't feel ready to. Right.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: But, you know, very quickly when when she came home I mean, the the very first night, I I remember her her walking out of our our bedroom and just staring at our front door. Just staring out our front door. And then walking back to me, and she just broke down crying. And I was like, sweetie, what's wrong? And she said, I I don't remember putting the shirt on.
• 28:40
  I don't remember putting the shirt on. I was like, okay. She said, I went in to to to to put on some clothes, and I've gotta take this off. And it it was a strange reaction to me because, I mean, it was just like, you know, a comfy t shirt and jammies. Right.
• 28:56
  But it was so it was so foreign to her at that point.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: She was
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: really depressed. Yes. Yes. I and I remember her going in her going in and changing into something else. And, you know, at at that point, we started looking for, you know, some some longer term therapy.
• 29:20
  She was she was going into day hospital, a partial partial day
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: To to kind of help work with things. And there were there were a few instances there where, you know, you know, they they called me one day because she was under a under a table and wouldn't come out. And another time where, you know, she, like, was hiding in the bathroom. And it was strange because, you know, 80% of the time, she was just the normal woman I always knew. And then it was like a switch had been turned.
• 30:07
  And yes. And and suddenly, you know, she didn't know what was going on. Mean, she was very concerned that she was just crazy. And that's what she said over and over again. You know, I don't want to go home.
• 30:25
  I think I'm crazy. You know, I don't know what's happening. Know, very, very just torn apart and confused. And, you know, that little kernel that had been dropped earlier with the word dissociation and the things that some of the doctors had mentioned along the way and what was happening with her under a table or wandering around the house. And I didn't mention that before, but that was something also.
• 30:59
  She had always been prone to sleepwalking and had never you know, that had happened for the years, pioneers. I used to always tell her, you know, you're doing strange things at night. She'd be like, do you mean strange things at night? And I'd say, sweetie, I would I would look over and, you know, your arms were up and it looked like you were writing or looked like you were drawing in the air. And she always just thought I was I was making it up.
• 31:26
  So, you know, there there was a lot of history that I had to draw upon that when I had that word dissociation, and I started looking into it, I thought, there there's something more here. This these pieces are are falling into line with this dissociative identity disorder. And then, you know, while she was in in the hospital, I I I came across a a stack of of papers over under her journal that, it wasn't her writing, but it was there in her journal. And then I I found, you know, a couple different names in that. And then strangely enough, while she was in the day hospital, you know, one of the things that they have them do there is is journal and do these workbooks.
• 32:22
  And flipping through that one day, lo and behold, I found found the same writing and the same name. And it was like, bingo, this this is what's going on. This is what's going on. So at that point, you know, I was able to start having a more intelligent discussion with the doctors and the therapists, and say, Hey, have you guys looked at this? Is this what's going on?
• 32:50
  And they were pretty much in agreement at that point. Started saying, you know, this this does this fits this fits with what you're dealing with. Now, you know, me figuring it out and then her figuring it out is, like, two separate worlds apart. You know?
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Right. Right. You had a diagnosis at least, or she did, and you knew about it at that point.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. And me knowing about it and the doctor saying it didn't mean that she believed it in any form or fashion.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: You know? That
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: That seems to be inconsistent too that that's really difficult for some of us to accept that that's what's going on.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, in full honesty, even as even as I was learning it, I was like, okay. This this isn't real. This can't be right. You know?
• 33:55
  Because it was such a a foreign concept. And, you know, then as you start looking at it and researching it and go, wow, you know, this you know, even even though I had the facts and the pieces and things lined up for me, it was still something that took, I wouldn't say a leap of faith, but it definitely took some time for me to fully absorb, to realize and understand and say, yes, yes. There was a lot of things along the way. You know, people that I talked with that were counselors and things who had worked with people with DIDs. You know?
• 34:37
  And most of them, you know, had a couple of them had worked with a few people with DIDs and then one who I I met online who specialized working with DIDs. And he kept he kept giving me things, little bits of information, and then I would I would see those things happening. And, I mean, all it was it was strange because he would say something to me, and then it was almost it was almost precognitive, you know. It wasn't. But, you know, within two or three days, it would be like, oh, wait a minute.
• 35:12
  That's just like what he was talking about. You know, I I can fully see this now. So, you know,
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: I Like putting on glasses, and it was there all
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the time. Yes. Very very much so. So that as that picture became clear for me, then it was really the process of, okay. How can I make this clear for her?
• 35:37
  And how can we figure out how to how can we figure out how to normalize this for everybody in her? Because, you know, I I don't want I don't want anyone to wake up and be confused and not know where they are and wandering around the house. You know? I I don't want someone to be to be scared because they don't know what shirt they're wearing.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: That's really huge. That's a hard, hard place in the very early days of getting diagnosed and trying to sort of spread the word, so to speak, about what's going on and orienting everybody and getting everyone on the same page and rescuing some of those that are more internal or less present in the now time, like in the present day. It's a real challenge doing what you're talking about to make them feel safe and oriented and know where they are and what's going on.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yes. You know, that was and, you know, I thought I thought the challenges with my wife would be would were were difficult. And then and then I met my first part, which I don't I don't know necessarily know if that's the the word that everybody likes. I headmate or, you know, family member.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Right. Another insider.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Insider. Well, insider who became an outsider. You know?
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Exactly. There's so many there's so much language, and everyone has different preferences.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. And and, you know, that that's that's a challenge because, you know, some people get very entrenched in which words they they want to use.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: You'll see on the online groups on the forums, you'll see someone will say, I found out I have DID and that I've got these parts, and they're like, and you're also a part, sweetie.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. Right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: So that was, you know, that that was the the language actually, I think is is one of those those challenging things that we as a as a DIDS community, I guess we would say, need to be very kind and very soft with each other because it's it's such a such a journey. And people are at different spots along the journey and how they are working together.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: Yes. Room for compassion there. There's room for compassion.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And and that's that's funny you you say compassion because, you know, that was one of the the first challenges or or I would actually say breakthroughs that that I had. So I met, you know, the first person that came out, and she was very young. And we have there's horses that our neighbors have.
• 38:40
  And I had been driving with my wife. She was just staring off at these horses and listening to the music on the radio very loud. And we talked for a little bit, and I realized, okay, this this is somebody else now. It was a very, very good experience. And later on, I I learned that she was she was kinda sent out to be the the guinea pig, if you will, because she's someone who normally doesn't talk.
• 39:10
  And others were putting her out to see if it was a a safe time to be out.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: Testing the waters.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Yes. Testing the waters. Testing the waters. And and then very shortly thereafter, I I met someone who, again, use using the words of DIDs, would be a a protector or, I guess, you could also say the gatekeeper. She she was the one who said that she she knew the way in and out and could let people in and out.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: And initially initially was a a very hard person to work with. I mean, was very much stuck in the past. And I think that and that's understandable. You know? In in the language of DIDS, you you would say that my wife had pretty much fronted or driven for, you know, almost thirty years.
• 40:16
  There were s instances where others had probably popped in and out. Mhmm. But, you know, she she was she was driving the bus. She had been driving the bus for a long time. And there were a lot of others who were very much living in the past and past trauma and and coming from yes.
• 40:35
  And coming out of of those experiences. And, you know, one one of the one of the things I always say when when people are are are talking about head mates or alters or whatever you wanna say and talking about, you know I I'm always seeing posts where where on a lot of the supporters boards where people are saying, you know, I'm having a hard time dealing with this particular element, this particular person.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: And I I always pull it back to the analogy of a soldier at war. When a soldier comes back, oftentimes they've seen terrible things. They've been involved with terrible things. And there's that PTSD, there's that shell shock. And they have been shaped they have been shaped by those those experiences.
• 41:28
  And I I know that. And I understand that. I 150%, with all of my being, can appreciate everything that that soldier has done and be grateful for what they've done. And I will give them the love and the honor for the battles that they have fought.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: And I will and I will give them compassion and space to try to normalize now that they're not in those battles.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, you made me cry. That's really powerful. I appreciate you sharing that.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I think it's one of those I think it's it's powerful because I think it's true, and I I think it's something that that is an easy way for everyone to understand. You know? By by the same time, you know, I also say, you know and and with that, you know, you you still need to hold that that that soldier. You need to hold that person. You still need to hold that part responsible for their actions.
• 42:32
  This is not about absolving someone for responsibility for what they do. But this is about giving people space and compassion to live and to heal. When initially, you know, this one part came out and was had was just not not cooperating, not I wouldn't even say cooperating. It just wasn't wasn't being very nice. Right.
• 42:58
  You know? Sure. I had I had the discussion of what what why did you do what you did? The reply was, well, she, my wife, was little, and I couldn't let that happen. And and I said, okay.
• 43:15
  Well, you have just gone and on and on about how, you know, terrible this world is and how that gives you the right to be terrible to everyone else. But you have just shown me an example of pure love, and that is the kind of person that is the kind of person I'm gonna cry now. That is the kind of person that I want to be. That is the example.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: So blown right now.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: That that is the kind of person that I want to be, and that is how I try to live my life. So when you're saying that the world is this dark and evil and terrible place, I understand it because I know that that's what you've come through. But you have already shown me by your example that that is not the way this world is because that is not what you were operating out of.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. You just completely turned the world upside down. Like, I I don't know how to process what you just said. I have no intelligent response because so many things are happening in my head right now.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: That that realization, that discussion was turning point for for me and for my wife and for her understanding DIDs and for how we were going to live and be with this. You know, because there's there's so much confusion within a person with DIDs. There is that that denial within oneself of this this I really don't have this. This can't be happening. You know, the these voices are just this is me being crazy.
• 45:10
  There is the the guilt that comes from a mom who has, you know, been been homeschooling who suddenly can't. There is so much going on, and we had to reground ourselves of, okay. This this is who we are. This is what we are going through. Let's let's understand it.
• 45:39
  Let's let's treat ourselves. Let's you you treat everyone in there the way that you have lived and want to treat others, and this will help us manage through this. This will help us understand. And it has it is you know, it is not a it's not always an easy process. You know, there's there's always been been challenges along the way because I I like to talk about the reality of now.
• 46:14
  And I know this isn't this isn't the reality that everyone has, but I always talk about, you know what? The reality of now is that that you are safe. Everybody is safe. You are loved. You know, everybody is loved.
• 46:30
  And you you are secure. And you are you are secure. You know, that's not because that's not because of of me, but that is because of where you are in time and space. You know, that is where all of you have gotten yourself to. You know?
• 46:46
  It it is it has been a team play this whole time. This is this has all been a group effort to get to where you are. And let's let's acknowledge, you know, the the spot where we're at, and let's also, you know, see how we can continue to work together to grow, you know, to live, to be to be happy. Let's acknowledge, yes, terrible things happened in the past, and let's make sure that no one's living in the past, though.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Let's make sure that no that no one's holding on to them.
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: You have, again, just blown my mind. That's so empowering, and it's so powerful. The listeners of the podcast know that one of the things our therapist has taught us is that now time is safe. And I could add to that that one thing our husband says a lot, that the husband says a lot to everybody is, you are safe. You are loved.
• 47:51
  Like, now time is safe. Like, trying to practice that. And so it's been this mantra for almost a year on this podcast. Now time is safe. Now time is pet safe.
• 47:59
  As if we say it enough times, we'll believe it. But you just took that and put it into perspective as a gift we had already given ourselves. Like, that this was the whole point. Yes. Like, we've made it.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Yes. Well, I Yes. Exactly.
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: I'm healed. I don't know about you guys, but I know
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: about it. It it it's it's funny because on a on a very practical level, one one of the things that one of the things that I I did when my wife came back from the hospital is my children and I covered the wall of our our bedroom floor to ceiling, in pictures, framed pictures. Because I thought, what, you know, what a great way to actually have and acknowledge, you know, not just where we are, but also where we've been, you know, so that no matter who who is waking up, because very often, it's it's somebody else. They can turn and look and see. And, you know, we have positive pictures from from their childhood.
• 49:12
  We have, you know, pictures of our our journey along the way.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: This is crazy because we did that too. That's another parallel we have. Our bedroom wall, we covered in photographs and put even, like, these are the names of the kids and these are the Yes.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. There's there's there's that's funny you said it because there there's Post it notes on on picture, blue arrows of
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: I feel so less crazy now. I'm so glad that I talked to you.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: You know what? There it it was funny. Just on on a a funny kind of practical note, you know, there there was a there was a phase, there was a time where and I've heard this from many people where mirrors were a terrible, terrible issue for my wife.
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: You know? She and and I've I a % can understand that. You know, suddenly looking in the mirror and going, wait a minute, that's that's not me. Who is that? And, you know, having having anyone, you know, some someone who hasn't driven, I use the term driven instead of front very often, someone who hasn't driven in a long time, suddenly looking at it going, wait a minute, that looks like an adult.
• 50:26
  That looks scary, you know? So there was a real challenge with mirrors. So, you know, after finding my wife a number of times glass eyed in front of it or, you know, recoiled in fear because of it, I was like, why don't we just get rid of the mirrors for a while?
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: And and and she looked at me, and she was like, you you would do that? I was like, sure. If if that's what it it takes to help, sure. So we we we took down the mirrors for a while.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: And, you know, it it was one of those things like, you know, here. Let's let's let's start if if we need look. Here's a compact, and it has a mirror. You know? And it's sitting folded up over here.
• 51:14
  Somebody needs it. And also, it's a great way to reacclimate. You know, there got to a point where she was, okay. I I I wanna get used to mirrors, which I know people outside the community would be listening to this and thinking, what what's he talking about? But it's it's something that needs to happen.
• 51:31
  So she would look at the little mirror, and it was something small that she could control. So there there's a lot of, like, little practical
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: That's brilliant. That's an exposure kind of therapy. Therapy.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Yes. Amazing. So, anyways, you know, it got to a point where my wife was feeling much more comfortable.
• 51:58
  And, you know, we had had that that discussion and that that breakthrough, and, honestly, that made it much easier. Now there was there was challenges along the way. But one of the one of the things that, you know, I knew was just really, you know, tearing at my wife was, how do I how do I talk about this with the kids? What's the discussion there? Because this is this has been, you know, the a nuclear bomb in their lives.
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: You mean your outside kids?
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: Okay. Correct. Clarifying.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: Correct. I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. You know, how how what can we do to have this? You know, what can we do with this?
• 52:45
  What kind of discussion can we have? And I I am very much open and honest kind of person. I think that especially with DIDs, I think that's really important. You know, because it's, again, there's so much of this is is just about hiding, hiding of of memories, hiding hiding of the past. And then, you know, eve even now, it's there's still much so much of a hiding because of what's portrayed out in the culture.
• 53:21
  You know, I I didn't want I didn't wanna keep this from the kids. But at the same time, I know that that this is this is hard for adults to understand. This is hard for for medical personnel to understand. And there has been so much negativity over the years in dealing with this and in talking about multiple personality disorder or DIDs. I knew I wanted to be able to talk with my kids.
• 53:52
  So I started looking around, trying to find some resources.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: And and I found a few books that were a little bit older, you know, written, you know, late eighties ish. And I I bought them off of Amazon. And quite frankly, I found them a little scary. You know, the now that's not not to say they weren't dealing with truth because, you know, there there's this it's scary and confusing. You know, Lord knows it's scary and confusing for someone with DIDs, and it it can be, you know, just as much for all of us on the outside.
• 54:33
  That's understandable. The the the resources the resources that I was finding were really reflecting were reflecting too much that that scary side. And I was like, this is not how I want to be able to talk about it. You know? Every book I I picked up had, you know, some scary black and white picture of someone staring in into a mirror with, you know, someone else staring back.
• 54:58
  And while I had gone through that and I acknowledged that that is a reality, that wasn't the reality and how I wanted to talk about it with a kid. Right. Because I didn't want to to feed into kind of the the the culture of of fear.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Looking for something that is accurate, but also focused on the healing and what you said earlier about normalizing. Like, this is where we're at and what we're gonna deal with, not Yes. Just the fear and the terror of the past. Like, that's the whole point of getting better. Right?
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. I mean
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: Even as a family.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Exactly. This is this is this is all about, you know, survival, which is positive. This is about this is about healing and about a way forward. And and I wanted to be able to talk about that with my kids. So I looked around and I couldn't find any great resources.
• 56:02
  You know what? I will say Jade Miller's books, I don't know if you've looked at any of thosewere some that I found which they are very good to talk to insiders, but I was looking something really to talk to outsiders. So I started thinking about how do I want to have this conversation with my kids? Because obviously, they know mommy's been in the hospital. I mean, she's had two or three different stents at the hospital.
• 56:36
  They know that things have changed. We need to be able to talk about this. And I had a, I don't know, another kind of moment or an awakening moment when the first time I sat down and talked with my oldest daughter And talking to her, and she said, oh, wait a minute. Multiple personality disorder. I remember seeing this seeing this.
• 57:01
  This is like that thing that I saw on Maury Povich.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: And I had to kinda grip teeth. Now I I have not gone back to see what what was on or what was presented, but I know from I know from seeing the Maury Povich show before that it was not be the kind of serious discussion or coming from the kind of place that I wanted to have the discussion coming from. Right. So I thought this I I need I need to I need to do something. I need to
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: You need a different metaphor.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Yes. I I need a different forum. I need need a different kind of narrative. So I thought, you know what? I I'm going to I'm gonna write a kid's book.
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: Good for you.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: So the the you know, my my youngest just turned six, and my my oldest turns 15 tomorrow, which I cannot believe.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: Yes. That's it's being she's gonna be able to start driver's training soon, and it just blows my mind. It just blows my mind. The the the story or the the genesis of the the password quote also ties back into to my my wife and and her story and her healing because, I mean, really, the the you know, this is all really her her story. And I mean that both in a figurative and in very many ways, a literal sense because the the story actually this sounds strange, but the story actually happened.
• 58:44
  One of the the traumas that my my wife went through when she was younger. And it was it was strange because as we were as we we were teenagers, I remembered hearing about this in passing that when my wife was younger, one of her abusers took her her her blanket, her safety blanket, as, you know, many kids would would have. I mean, my kids have, and, you know, most kids either have a safety blanket or some kind of special animal or something.
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: But the abuser but the abuser took that blanket and cut it up.
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: It it was it was strange because, you know, I had I had heard that when when we were younger. And when we had first started dating, someone someone had mentioned that almost kind of as in in passing, you know, oh, yeah, he did that. He was a jerk. That was kind of how it was it was presented out. Well, one someone on the inside and actually a lot of people on the inside, that was a a amazingly traumatic experience And came out to me looking for their blanket and upset because the blanket had been cut up.
• 1:00:09
  What I didn't know at that point was that it was deeply tied to trauma because it was they had had cut the blanket up and then relay it back to my wife or an insider back then that that was what they could do to anyone, anyone who talked, anyone who told. So it was it was, you know, this compounding of this trauma around, you know, what should be a a great and a beautiful piece of childhood. I mean, like I said, my kids have their security blankets and their wubbies and stuffed animals and things like that. And it just so happens that I still have my blanket from when when I was a child, and it was in a hope chest. So the next time that that part came out, I gave them my blanket, the the quilt that I had as a child.
• 1:01:12
  And it was another one of those healing moments where it just took something that had been so traumatic and was making it right again. And I thought, you know what? This this story as a whole could be a great way for me to be able to talk to my kids. So I sat down and I I started writing this story. And I'm I did my my first rough draft version where, you know, I I grabbed clip art and some ideas from from online and typed up the text.
• 1:01:52
  And, you know, I gave that version to to my wife. And she sat and she read it, and she cried and she cried and she cried and said this this is this is beautiful. I love this. And I said really? And she said she said yes.
• 1:02:09
  You need to do something with this. I said okay. So I I reached out to my niece who is in college and an illustrator. That's Megan Starpling. Seeing.
• 1:02:26
  And she she is a a fabulous artist. And, you know, being that she is in college was always always in need of in need of money for books, etcetera. And she spent about a year going back and forth working through the artwork and the story of of the book. I've put it out on a couple of the the supporters of dead sites early on just to get their take, you know, to see, you know, does is this does this something that you guys think is needed? Is this is this helpful to you?
• 1:03:07
  You know? Any input or thoughts on it? And I I really had an overwhelmingly positive response. I mean, peep people were coming back and saying, yes. This this is good.
• 1:03:19
  I I didn't know how to have this conversation with my kids. Or you know what? I've actually sat down with the the PDF that you sent across, Jeff, and have looked at it with with my kids. This has been a great way to talk.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: And it's it's it's funny and light, but it's also serious. And, you know, I I got great feedback that way. And I actually you know, as I was doing it, you know, my my I wouldn't say I guess I would say my my understanding sensitivity around DIDs has evolved. So I I made some changes in the book to to help what I think the the storyline to be a little more inclusive, you know. So, you know, there there's there's a line in it that says toward the end that says, I'm gathering up all of the parts, which originally, when I had written it, said I'm gathering up all of my parts.
• 1:04:18
  But then, you know, as I I thought about that and my understanding has grown where I was like, you know, this if I if I put my there, that that is a sense of ownership that I I don't know. I don't think that's right. You know? It it's
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: you. Good for you.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: So we I've made made some changes along along the way so that it can be very inclusive, you know, for however people want to read and interpret the book. Because as we were we were talking before, you know, people get very sensitive around words and terms, and I get that and I understand that. And I don't want I don't want, you know, someone to get lost in getting stuck on something in the book. I want them to be able to use it as a starting point to talk with their family. I've also had a number of people say, you know what?
• 1:05:19
  I don't have kids, but my internal kids love this.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: That's amazing. What a gift. Thank you.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: I'm I am just hopeful that, you know, it it finds an audience. You know, I'll say this. The I've had a particular moment this past week when when my father came up to me and said, you know, I I read your book. You and Megan did a great job with that, And it really helped me understand. You should be very proud.
• 1:05:59
  And, you know, as a son, I was like, yes. But even more so as as an author, which I'm I feel haughty saying that. But, okay, as a storyteller, I I felt very proud because it did what I wanted it to do.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: You know, the the the next steps, I'm I'm working on trying to get an audio version and a little video version done that I can I can put out there? So, you know, whether someone finds the book or finds the the video, whatever they've however they find it, if it's helpful, then then I've done I've done my job. You know, I like I said, I I was able to use it to to really talk with my kids, and, you know, my my son was sitting with a copy on the floor reading. So he he's as I said, he's just turned six. So it's a great way to normalize.
• 1:07:02
  And I that that's what needs to happen. The discussion needs to not be not not be around, you know, oh, is is this person is this is this real? Is this fake? Is this, you know, is this the way it's portrayed in in TV? You know?
• 1:07:22
  Is this like the movies? You know? And that that was the other thing that kept bubbling up with me is the all of the things going on, you know, in the Hollywood betrayals. And, you know, I don't want that. I don't want the Moripovich to be the the baseline for for the discussion.
• 1:07:41
  Right. You know, at least not with my kids.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: That's amazing. It's really impressive, and it's beautifully done. Beautifully done.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: Well, I love it, and I so appreciate you telling us about it. And I will put a link and more information about it up on the blog. But, also, I appreciate you just sharing your love story. It is beautiful, and the experience of finding ways to show support and love through the whole process of discovering dissociative identity disorder as well as just loving her as a whole is just a beautiful, beautiful example. And you also dropped some pretty heavy pearls of wisdom that we're gonna have to process for a while.
• 1:08:32
  So thank you for that as well.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Good. I'm I I very much enjoyed enjoyed the discussion, and thank you so much for reaching out and having me on.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: I'm so grateful.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the Workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeakcommunity.com. We'll see you there.