Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #72: Interview with Robin East, IT Analyst / Accessibility Specialist, Canada Revenue Agency

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #72: Interview with Robin East, IT Analyst / Accessibility Specialist, Canada Revenue Agency · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ASCP and MBA, invites you to listen to her
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biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
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Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
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insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
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Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, site loss coach,
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dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
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skills and expertise in access technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Remarkable World commentary.
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I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
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through sound, touch and a stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
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author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments.
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In November of 2010, I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian
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government to make its websites accessible to every Canadian,
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not just to sighted ones.
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And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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And most recently, on June 3rd, 2022, I was humbled and greatly humbled by
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Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or a pottery studio,
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you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
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policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guest and change maker,
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whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to build.
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It is my pleasure. It is my privilege.
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It is my honor to welcome my friend, my mentor and my advisor of many years,
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Robin East. Welcome to my podcast.
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Robin East: Oh, thank you, Donna, and I appreciate it.
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I listen to your your your introduction of you and I'm going,
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oh my God, is this my Donna?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We go back a long way and I will never forget the first time we met face to face.
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I think it was in New Westminster, BC.
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There I was, running for second VP of the EBC,
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standing right next to you.
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You were six feet five and I was five feet two.
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Just imagine.
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Robin East: Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite a pair.
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Yeah.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We've done much together, buddy.
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We've, you know, the charter challenge, barrier Free Canada.
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And we're still kicking, aren't we?
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Robin East: We certainly are. And continue to move rights forward.
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Right. It's the only it's the only way to go.
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Right?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: It is.
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Robin East: It's it's it's how we it's how we have to operate.
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Because for every right we successfully put into place and and and and make governments
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know that it is our right.
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Then another piece comes along that they're trying to push down and away from us.
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And so we got to keep pulling up the pieces that that we have succeeded in,
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in the past.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Absolutely. Now, Robin, take us back to your beginnings in
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Saskatchewan. What early experiences, community work,
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union involvement, or your first encounters with in accessible systems set you on the
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path to become an advocate and technologist?
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Robin East: Well, I think gosh, we go back a long, long ways,
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Don, and we could be here for weeks.
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I it but But when I became legally blind back in 1982 I was
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22 years of age. By the time I was 26, 27.
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I basically did not have any sight left.
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And, and through that period of time, it was moving through to get a A university
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degree. So I moved from the University of Saskatchewan to Polytech to get a behavior
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therapist certificate.
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And then I moved from there to go into get a social work degree through the University of
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Saskatchewan and University of Regina.
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And all through that, looking at what was available for a person
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that was a blind Canadian citizen in Canada at the time.
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And as such, how do you address things?
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And the first thing, of course, as you know,
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is always the access to information.
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And at that very early start, it was access to textbooks.
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You go into a class, you try to get a textbook.
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By the time you get your textbook on audio tape,
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that class is nearly over, if not already over.
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So you're always using second hand or old, old,
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old type documentation.
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So you're never having up to date information.
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Same with any research that you do going into the library.
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Nothing. Nothing accessible back in those early 80 years.
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Right. So so all of those started that lifelong piece on advocacy.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow, wow. When you became national president of the Alliance for the Equality of Blind
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Canadians in 2007, you championed a right holders approach.
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What did that look like in practice, and what do you consider to be your top 2 or
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3 wins from that period?
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Robin East: I think just the recognition that we as a group in community,
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we as persons with disabilities, we are not stakeholders.
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And that was the term that's often used in government and is still used in government
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from time to time today.
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Well, we are not stakeholders.
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A stakeholder is a person that holds the prize for two competing factions,
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and whoever wins that stakeholder gives them the pride.
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We're we're not on the side.
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We're in the thick of things.
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It's nothing about us without us.
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And so a rights holder was a piece that I pushed forward way back in 2006,
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2007. And any time I met with government and they brought up the word stakeholder,
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I promptly shot it down and said, sorry, but if that's the case,
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we're not here because we don't we don't want to be on the sidelines.
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We want to be listened to.
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We want to be part of the conversation, and we want to be part of the solution.
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So bringing forward rights holders was was an important piece.
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And to me that that is a a huge, huge, huge win for us.
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And another piece that we did was way back then in around that time,
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we started a coalition of blind organizations and we call it the Coalition of Rights
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Holders. And that that went for a number of years.
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And then it turned into a group called Now, I can't remember it.
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I can remember the acronym KG.
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So but I can't remember what it stood for.
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I have to go back and look it up.
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It's been so long since that even has been into place.
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But but that helped bring together a lot of the blindness organizations that were all
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striving to get monies from government and striving to make a name for themselves and to
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move advocacy. And it it helped bring us all together so that we could all look at what
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are the pieces that we need to come together as and move as one so that we can resolve
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some of those issues of the day.
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So that was an important piece.
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And of course in and around that time, there was a lovely lady named Donna Johnson
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who was trying to take through the court challenge program her case forward in regards
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to access for government sites and so on.
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And so to me, getting the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians to step up to the
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plate and back, Donna, in that huge fight that she won way back in
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2010 and then again in 2012.
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That, folks, is a landmark decision.
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And it's a it's a watershed moment for the blind community in regards to access rights.
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Thank you, Donna, for that fight.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you, Robin, for standing with me.
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And in 2010, when my charter challenged case against the Government of Canada over
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inaccessible federal websites, was decided, you were a vocal ally.
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Okay. From your vantage point, what did that ruling change inside government
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and across the broader accessibility movement?
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Robin East: Well, I think it it showed both government.
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Officials as well as community that if one decides to take on
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a piece of advocacy to take a look at what you think should be your right as a Canadian
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citizen, and to move that forward, it showed that it could be done.
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And to me, that that was the biggest piece.
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It, it it gave it gave people the permission to.
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Speak up for themselves to look for allies and and and and with those allies move what
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we would call the disability rights agenda forward in Canada.
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So to me that that was the biggest piece of course,
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having appropriate websites being accessible.
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External for public facing sites is is extremely important and to have it monitored
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by the court so that it would be done appropriately.
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Was was as I said, it's a watershed moment and it's a piece of history that we will
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always go back to the the whole aspect of having an accessible site when you're going
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on with a screen reader to be able to get information is is unparalleled in regards to
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what we do as, as blind citizens the the the.
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The next step to that was to try to get the internal sites and so on within the
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Government of Canada to be accessible, similar to the external sites.
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And there is now a recent court challenge that is to address that,
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plus to bring up and and relook at the what we call the jot in one case.
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And now this is the other two case and it's going to be looking at the internal
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applications, forms, documents and websites to make sure that all of those pieces are
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accessible as well.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know, Robin, I still remember that very famous fall day when I was just sitting there
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doing nothing and you phoned me and you said,
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I think you need to get downtown to see David Baker.
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And I said, why the hell for?
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And he says, because we won.
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We won. It wasn't just me, Donna.
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It was our team. And you were there with me.
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You know. But you know what?
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You won a landmark case in 2008 against the Canadian Transportation Agency.
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With the decision related to your traveling with your guide dog.
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Walk us through the problem you faced, how you built the case,
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and what the ruling really actually required of airlines,
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and what still is not happening on the ground today.
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Robin East: Well, that that that's quite an interesting piece.
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And so back in 2006, 2007 and part of 2008, the whole other
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aspect of travel with a guide dog was that out of the goodness of the hearts of the
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carriers. For for the for the various airlines.
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They would give us an extra seat space for room for our service dogs when we got onto a
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plane. But that was only if there was room.
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And so this all and that came about way back in 1974 by a young gal named
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Gail Riddle out of Penticton.
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Who who basically got on a plane to go to Ottawa to,
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to for and I can't remember the reasons why she did that.
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I was it for an award or something?
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I can't recall that part, but she was going with her guide dog,
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and the air carrier wanted to muzzle her dog.
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And. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was horrible.
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So she finally said fine, she would put the muzzle on.
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She flew to Ottawa, but unbeknownst to her on that plane were MPs and and once they
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landed in Ottawa, there was a gathering of the media and that airline was put to shame.
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And after that, the airlines welcomed guide dogs on their planes.
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But again, it was still voluntary practice and only if there was room.
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So Gail Riddell started it all moving forward all the way up to 2006,
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2007, I did a lot of traveling for work with my dog guide,
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and while I was traveling in most times the seat was available for my dog to lie
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comfortably, but from time to time, that seat was not available.
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And when I was going from Vancouver to Kelowna.
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I was on this little prop plane person sitting in the aisle seat.
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I had to sit in the window seat.
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It was only a two seater on each side, and my dog was sitting under my feet,
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and my feet were on top of my dog.
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And as you know, I'm very tall, fellow.
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So my knees were up by my chin and that was the most horrible flight I ever had.
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I was so concerned that my dog was going to get hurt.
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Right. So that's that's why I made the decision to take the airline to task.
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And I won at the at the Canada Transportation Agency level.
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But the airline wasn't satisfied with that ruling from the Canada Transportation Agency.
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So they decided to go to court.
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So, so, yeah. So when I went to the Federal Court of Appeal,
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you have to do it by yourself, because even though we have these rights,
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all of a sudden Everybody has to have and not be biased.
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So they they can't really support you in the court.
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So you're all alone. So you got to file all of these documents and so on.
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But thankfully, a mr. stack from a lawyer from the Saskatoon,
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Saskatchewan agreed that he would help me file the paperwork and,
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and take on this particular airline.
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And at the end of it all, we we did win the Federal Court of Appeal.
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And we, to this day, have the right to be able to take our service dogs on a plane and
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and, and get the extra seat for the room, depending on the size.
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So the ruling was based on the size.
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Small, medium, large. If it's small, you don't need the extra room.
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If it's a medium or large, then you do.
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And then you have to you have to address it through the medical model,
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of course. And and and show, you know, your dog's height,
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your dog's weight, your dog's length to prove that it's a medium to large sized dog so you
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can get the plane. So so that's still in place.
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And that was rolled into the Council of Canadians with disabilities when on one seat,
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one fare, because when they did the one seat one fare,
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they forgot about us with our service dogs.
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So we were so we were able to, after my win,
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then roll that into that particular case.
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So now when we say one seat, one fare, it does include our service dogs.
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But that case is still still set forth and, and nothing has changed in regards to that.
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So that's how we now have the right to take our dogs on any of those carriers.
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We just need to make sure we have the proper paperwork to do it.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But are you engaged with other issues with regard to,
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you know, traveling in addition to the guide dog issue right now?
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Robin East: Well, I sit on the Canada Transportation Agency Advisory Committee and I represent
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Independent Living Canada.
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I'm the vice chair for that national organization.
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And so so we bring up issues that are barriers for transportation federally.
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So buses that cross provincial line, ferries,
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air carriers and trains, those are the, the the main ones.
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We also look at issues in regards to Catsa, which is the,
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the Federal Authority for security for, for airlines airports.
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And, and look at the good work that they've been doing in getting people through security
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and addressing that. And, and of all of the organizations within the
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airports and the airlines.
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I have to say that Catsa has really stepped up to the plate in regards to access and and
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treating persons with disabilities with dignity.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I have to agree with you.
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Catsa has done a marvelous job.
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I really am proud of them, you know.
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Yeah. Now you've spent years inside the federal public service as an ex
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NSA analyst and accessibility specialist at the.
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No, sorry. Cra. I'm sorry.
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From the inside looking out.
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What are the hardest, you know, nuts to crack procurement,
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legacy systems, culture or something else.
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And how do you get out of all of this?
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Robin East: Oh, Donna, that is a huge egg to crack.
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Go for it. I would say that at this point in time all the above that you mentioned
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are barriers for persons of disabilities to address.
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And although we have the Accessible Canada Act that that came into force on July 11th of
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2019 we are still trying to address accessibility issues within the government of
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Canada. And, and that includes the internal pieces such as websites
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applications, forms, documents, all of those are still very much not
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accessible. And we would suggest that at least 80%,
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if not more, is not accessible.
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So there's a long way to go before those pieces become accessible.
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Their main systems, like employment systems that you have to access as an employee
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systems that you have to access as a manager,
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those systems are not accessible.
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And they're based on a what I would call a bastardised code in that
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they don't even use the appropriate code of the day.
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They've had to manipulate the code and create part of the mainframe application
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pieces. And when they did that those applications can't be rendered accessible
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because of the code that they've dealt with.
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They have to actually rebuild everything from scratch,
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or rebuild front end models so that it can go into the mainframes and reach in and grab the
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information and put it out into an accessible form that is going to cost millions of
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dollars. And here we are, what, in 2026?
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I'm seven years after the Accessible Canada Act came into force,
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and they have hardly touched any of that in regards to making it accessible.
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They roughly have 13 slash 14 years left before their magic,
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2040 of Canada becoming fully accessible.
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And in 14 years, they're not going to make it because they've already had a third of that.
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Seven years has gone by and they've they've hardly even made a mark in regards to
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accessibility, and that's just within what we call the IT world.
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If we look at the procurement of things again to procure pieces that are accessible,
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you you have to first do the research.
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When you do procure it, you got to test to make sure it's accessible.
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And then if it is accessible, you can go ahead with the contract.
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Well, I believe that those contracts are, are still have many issues because a lot of
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times when you're looking at the information to procure that information might say that
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the piece is accessible, but after you've tested it,
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you've discovered that indeed it is not accessible.
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There's exemptions that, that make it that, that they try to push
27:26
forward so that they say it's accessible.
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But or without looking at this piece or this piece or this piece,
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this would be accessible. Well, we need all those pieces so that everybody
27:38
can use it appropriately.
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And that's just not happening yet.
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So so procurement still needs to happen.
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And even though we've rolled in the standards what we call the En 301549 standard.
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So that's from the European Union.
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And it's now a worldwide standard.
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And the web content accessible guidelines are now incorporated in that standard.
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We we are still fighting to make sure that when we do procure things that it is
28:13
accessible. But that's, that's, that's going to take years yet to
28:20
come into play. And that's where the attitude and the culture is,
28:25
is still a piece that we need to work on.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we tackle the attitude and the culture.
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And why is it taking so long?
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Robin East: It one step at a time.
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And if you think of it this way and out of sight,
28:45
out of mind. So if you're not thinking about accessibility it's out of your mind,
28:52
then you just continue doing things.
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And so until we make it in the face of everybody and have everybody when you create
29:03
a document, you make it accessible from the get go.
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If you're going to develop an application, you make it accessible from the get go.
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If you're going to change policy, change directives,
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you need to involve persons with disabilities from the get go.
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You can't you can't bring people with disabilities in the final draft and say,
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we are now going to consult with you.
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What do you think? And then put it forward.
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That's like baking a cake without the sugar and then try to add it in afterwards.
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It just doesn't work.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I've had this told to me so many times, but does anybody listening?
29:44
Robin East: I think they're starting to, but only because more and more pressure is
29:48
getting put on by persons with disabilities.
29:50
They're getting more organized within and outside of government.
29:56
And because of that, I think that it's slowly happening,
30:01
but it's going to take much, much more time than I wish I wish it that it
30:07
would, but it's going to take much, much more time than,
30:09
than what we thought. And I don't think that we will reach that magical,
30:13
fully accessible by 2040.
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I think they're going to have to extend the Accessible Canada Act.
30:20
I think that the government may have to find monies to put into place for some of the huge
30:25
projects for the various Departments and agencies to build accessible pieces
30:35
because they've left it for decades.
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And not done it because they kept thinking, well,
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we really don't have to.
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They go back to, oh, it's only 1 or 2 people,
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or it's only 5% of people that we have to worry about.
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Well, under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms,
30:56
section 15, of which you laid claim with your case,
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Donna, the the whole aspect of it only takes one to discriminate.
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And that's what I keep telling folks.
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It only takes one. So it's not 1% or 5% or 25%.
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It's just one individual.
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If if you can't make it accessible for that individual,
31:21
then you have failed.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You were seconded to help stand up the Accessible Canada Acts compliance function.
31:37
So from a practitioner's perspective, what's the difference between checking the
31:46
box and demonstrating real compliance?
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And what evidence should regular, regular regulatory regulators be asking for?
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Robin East: Well, the checklists are gone, Donna.
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You can't just check a box saying, oh, let me see.
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I have this issue. I'm going to phone Donna Jodhan.
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Oh, hi, Donna. We've had this chat.
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This is what we're doing.
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Have a great day. And now you've checked the box.
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We've consulted with a person with a disability.
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So now let's move on. That's.
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That's gone. Those were the days prior to the Accessible Canada Act.
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Now, what has to happen is that persons with disabilities must be consulted in a
32:35
meaningful way. So we don't like to use the word consulting.
32:39
We talk about meaningful engagement, and we talk about that engagement happening
32:44
at the beginning. When you start talking about building a policy or a directive or an
32:50
application. Let's bring in persons with disabilities.
32:54
Let's have let's have those meaningful discussions,
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which is give and take.
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And let's build the accessibility pieces in that's that's what that's all about.
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We no longer look at the checklists, right?
33:12
They they were handy in the day, but it's not a piece that we look at anymore.
33:17
We look at. Did you actually meaningfully engage with persons with disabilities?
33:23
Yes or no? When did you do that?
33:26
At the end. In the middle or at the beginning?
33:30
You know, so so those are the new styles of checklists.
33:35
It's questions of how did you give dignity to persons with disabilities in regards to your
33:43
attitude, your culture, and, and, and how you are looking at putting
33:50
a plan together to make your area accessible so each department and agency has to do that.
33:58
Any Crown corporation has to do that.
34:00
Any large corporation has to do that.
34:03
So with all of those pieces we end up with these accessible action,
34:11
not action plans, but accessible plans and then accessible reports.
34:16
And we have to look at those plans and reports,
34:19
and we have to start saying, okay, are they just giving us gobbledygook?
34:25
Are they giving us bluff like they used to do under the employment equity plans.
34:31
This work is ongoing. That's not good enough anymore.
34:34
What are the barriers?
34:37
What's the solution and what's the timeline to get that solution in place?
34:42
That's what we're now looking for.
34:45
If we're starting to see delays or places where in the plans the information is now
34:52
removed because they couldn't get it together.
34:55
They didn't have any money.
34:56
They're coming up with all kinds of excuses.
34:58
That's not good enough.
35:00
And we as a community now have to look at those plans.
35:06
Pick a handful of departments, agencies, crown corporations and start
35:11
challenging those plans to see where they're at,
35:13
because one third or 33%, if you will, of the time to 2040 is already
35:21
up. So there should be lots of stuff there that should have moved things forward,
35:26
but we're seeing little progress.
35:28
So it's how do we do that as a community?
35:31
And then also how do we then look at that accessible Canada Act unit?
35:37
And the accessibility Commissioner, we need to report to that unit.
35:41
What we find is community and get that unit also to start looking at those plans and
35:47
reports and then start challenging those federal entities and,
35:54
and force them to make things accessible.
35:57
And then if they are at fault and they're not moving things forward,
36:03
then the accessibility commissioner can find those entities up to $250,000 per day until
36:12
they render it accessible.
36:14
But we haven't seen any of that in seven years.
36:16
So if you've if you've got if you got teeth in a,
36:21
in a, in an act, but you never use it there, you might as well pull the teeth out because
36:26
it's no good. It's time for the the accessibility commissioner.
36:32
And the chief accessibility officer to start moving on and addressing these departments
36:38
and agencies and stop accepting the excuses that they're giving.
36:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How do we make them do that, these two particular individuals.
36:48
Robin East: It only comes from community, and we need to do our due diligence.
36:52
We need to we need to get together as groups,
36:56
start looking at two or 3 or 4 plans from various departments and agencies and start
37:06
criticizing in a very professional way the information that's there.
37:14
And, and to show the accessibility commissioner and chief accessibility officer
37:19
why this plan or these plans in these particular spots have failed and and get the
37:28
accessibility commissioner to do an audit and address those pieces.
37:35
But and I guess that's the important piece we need to assist the accessibility
37:41
commissioner. He's only got a small team, so we need to to assist the the them to start
37:48
looking at some of these pieces.
37:50
And I think by putting it in writing and sending it to them,
37:53
they'll have no choice but to review, study and then put an audit forward and start
38:00
addressing. The House, if you will, the Government of Canada's House
38:06
in regards to accessibility through the accessibility plans.
38:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You interacted personally with either of these two individuals.
38:17
Robin East: I have not at this point in time.
38:20
Yeah. We just received a new accessibility Commissioner.
38:25
Just in. He's just in place for, what, maybe a year?
38:29
So. No, I have not. I have not met him yet.
38:33
I would like to meet him with at some point in time.
38:36
And I think that that will come, but I think more importantly organizations
38:46
need to talk with the heads of those organizations,
38:50
and then those organizations should get together similar to that coalition of rights
38:54
holders that I talked about earlier. Start talking about what what we need to do and
38:59
then and then asking for a meeting and have that accessibility commissioner come to them
39:07
and all of those organizations then sit down and simply say,
39:11
here's the information.
39:13
How are we going to work this out so that we can address the accessibility barriers that
39:21
are still in the place where where the solutions are not being resolved.
39:26
And and how do we force entities to make things accessible and take more seriously the
39:34
Accessible Canada Act?
39:37
If you will, if you look at the bilingual act if we were to put something out in only
39:45
French, English, Canada would be most upset if we were to put out something only in,
39:51
in English, then French Canada would be mostly upset.
39:57
And with that, if we are to do presentations and so on,
40:01
and if we don't have ASL and, and American Sign Language in French present
40:11
that is considered an official language in Canada under the Accessible Canada Act.
40:16
And so that's a new piece that we have to add.
40:18
So when we're looking at all of these pieces,
40:21
we need to say, why is it that the bilingual act is so strong that you can't send out a
40:28
document unless it's appropriately in both official languages?
40:32
Then why can't we do the same thing?
40:36
Under the Accessible Canada Act?
40:37
Why? Why can't we simply say you cannot procure this unless it is actually
40:43
accessible? You can't build this app unless it's actually accessible.
40:48
You can't put forward this application on your websites unless it's actually
40:56
accessible. You can't put this form in place unless it's accessible and so on and so on
41:03
and so on. Right. These these are pieces of interest that I think we need to look at and
41:07
say, why is it this act of bilingualism is so strong and very important to us in Canada?
41:14
Why is it that the Accessible Canada Act, which has teeth,
41:18
is the teeth are not being used.
41:21
That that's to me of interest.
41:23
And I think the community needs to start asking that question now.
41:27
Lastly, just out of interest, the Accessible Canada Act has stated very
41:32
clearly that there should be a review after five years.
41:36
Well, we're into year seven.
41:38
I haven't heard of anything about a review yet.
41:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Neither have.
41:42
Robin East: I, you.
41:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Know.
41:43
Robin East: So? So where is that? That's in the act.
41:46
But it's silent. Why? Why?
41:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, what can we do? And as my clock starts to wind down,
41:53
I'm going to ask you this huge question.
41:56
Are you willing to lead such an initiative to force,
42:02
you know, force feed the companies to, to step up to the plate?
42:09
No review in five years.
42:12
What should we do? What can we do?
42:14
You tell me.
42:16
Robin East: I honestly believe in the organizations of and for persons with disabilities.
42:23
And I say oven for because there are there are two types of organizations for people
42:28
with disabilities. The of are the persons with disabilities that run those
42:35
organizations themselves.
42:37
The four are organizations that are usually not persons of disabilities,
42:42
but are organizations claiming to fight for the rights of persons with disabilities?
42:49
Some are, some are not.
42:51
And but but I think we need to pull in all of them.
42:55
And I think that we as a community need to start looking at how do we make the
43:05
government of Canada stand up and take seriously the Accessible Canada Act
43:11
legislation and move forward?
43:14
The access, right, that we still don't have, even though we've had the act in place for
43:21
seven years. So it's a matter of pulling those people together.
43:25
Can I do that myself? No.
43:27
Can you do that yourself, Donna?
43:29
No, no, we need to have a number of people coming up to the plate and starting to move
43:36
that forward. And so that would be all of the national organisations of which I will not
43:42
name because there are so many of them.
43:45
And there's lots for the blind, there's lots for people in chairs,
43:48
there's lots for people with neurodiversity and the list goes on.
43:54
But we, we have to stop worrying about if I do this,
44:00
then I'm not going to get this government grant.
44:02
Right. That's part of the problem.
44:05
We need to get people to start standing up and not worrying about those government
44:10
grants and say, we need to work on behalf of our community,
44:15
and we need to work Working alongside of the leadership within persons of disabilities
44:20
themselves and and and ask the government and demand of government that changes need to be
44:29
real and they need to come fast.
44:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where do we get these leaders from?
44:36
Robin East: I that's a good question.
44:38
I think they're out there.
44:39
Donna. You talk to many of them.
44:42
I talk to many of them.
44:45
It's time that we start asking the very question that you're asking.
44:51
How how do we start moving this forward?
44:54
What? What can you help to put things forward?
44:58
And if each of us do that, then it's then I think we will be able to
45:04
pull it together. But again, it's to get the fear of the people that are
45:09
getting monies from government to be able to stand up to that same government,
45:12
to say, you're doing this wrong, you need to fix this.
45:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You know you found it barrier free Saskatchewan and it has done very,
45:22
very well. You also are part of my Barrier Free Canada organization.
45:27
And now we are really at a turning point here.
45:34
What are your final thoughts, Robyn?
45:37
Where are we going and how are we going to get there?
45:42
Robin East: Well, I think through barrier free Canada and all the Barrier free's that have set up
45:47
across the country in the various provinces, like barrier free Saskatchewan in most cases,
45:54
we now have provincial accessible acts that are sort of mirroring,
46:01
but probably weaker than the National Accessible Canada Act.
46:07
And they are to be working together.
46:08
So I think it's a matter of starting to pull together coalitions.
46:14
Again, Oven for persons with disabilities.
46:17
Oven for organizations of of persons with disabilities.
46:21
Oven. For services of.
46:24
Of organizations for persons with disabilities.
46:27
It's time to have that chat amongst all of us and seeing how can we address things.
46:35
Maybe that is something we look at Accessible Standards Canada and say we need a grant to
46:41
be able to pull all of these people together and have a huge forum two,
46:48
three, four day conference so that we can come up with action plans and actions to
46:57
move accessible rights forward in Canada.
47:01
Maybe that's the way we do it.
47:02
Donna. It's a matter of how do we address that?
47:06
Through Accessible Standards Canada.
47:09
And get a grant of money to, to put something like this forward,
47:13
because I think it fits within their criteria to be able to give money for that.
47:17
But it's it's hard when you are running your organizations,
47:21
you're doing advocacy within your organizations,
47:23
you're doing self-advocacy.
47:25
Then to take another finger out of a pot and put it into another pot to help move that
47:30
forward. So burnout is real.
47:33
It happens. I've been there.
47:36
It's not a pretty thing.
47:38
So I think we need to be careful on the work that we put on the shoulders of folks.
47:44
We all need to come up with our allies pull in the supports and come together in a forum.
47:53
And then at the end of that forum, have an action plan that we can then move
47:58
forward on for rights of persons with disabilities in Canada.
48:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Robin has been a privilege and a pleasure to have interviewed you now,
48:09
and I can only hope and pray that Something will happen in our lifetime,
48:15
but something has already.
48:17
But that something else will happen.
48:19
I want to thank you for coming on to our interview,
48:23
and we will chat soon.
48:26
I am out of Canada right now.
48:28
I'm returning to Canada on February the 2nd, but I'd like to touch base with you after
48:34
that.
48:35
Robin East: Well, it's a pleasure coming on and talking with you,
48:38
Donna, and in your travels, be safe, be healthy,
48:42
and stay encouraged.
48:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You to, Robin, and we will be in touch.
48:48
Robin East: Very good. Thank you. Donna.
48:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Thank you.
48:50
Robin East: Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye.
48:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
48:57
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@gmail.com.
49:03
Until next time.