Latest / PCMA Convene Podcast / Series: Return on Regulation: Designing Event Conditions That Protect Human Capacity with Yush Sztalkoper

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Series: Return on Regulation: Designing Event Conditions That Protect Human Capacity with Yush Sztalkoper · PCMA Convene Podcast

• Convene Podcast Transcript Series: Return on Regulation: Designing Event Conditions That Protect Human Capacity with Yush Sztalkoper *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: Welcome to Season 11 of the Convene Podcast, brought to you by Destination Madison. This season we’re focused on wellness and designing events that don’t exhaust people. Today my guest is Yush Sztalkoper, who helps the events industry understand how design conditions shape human capacity. With over 20 years in global corporate events at UBS, JPMorgan, and Gartner, Yush brings a systems‑level perspective to how cognitive load and nervous system regulation influence engagement, learning, and decision‑making. She’s the creator of the Human Capacity Design™ defining capacity across five domains—Wiring, Regulation, Energy, Processing, and Belonging—and Yush also introduced the relationship between demand, capacity, and fit. In this conversation, we explore how event conditions either protect or compress human capacity, how to identify invisible load in event design, and the practical design shifts planners can make to improve engagement, retention, and outcomes—without adding more spend. We start now. Hi Yush and welcome to the Convene Podcast. Yush Sztalkoper: Thank you for having me today. Magdalina Atanassova: In our previous episode in this season we talked about wellness as a performance strategy. So designing for human energy mostly you take this in a different direction and focus on conditions and capacity. When did you realize that what looks like an engagement or motivation issue at events is actually a capacity problem shaped by the conditions we design? Yush Sztalkoper: I love how you frame that because to me this is where the conversation has been currently and before. We've always focused on supporting human energy through wellness, mental health, neuro, inclusion, accessibility and all of those matter. What my work does is it zooms out and looks at what's shaping those needs it the first place because what we often call engagement or motivation is sometimes just a reflection of whether people have the capacity to receive what's being asked of them. So I didn't see this fully until parenting My child is twice exceptional, which means he's gifted and neurodivergent and learning how to understand him changed how I saw behavior. What looks like motivation was often a signal of capacity in that moment. And so once I saw that clearly, I started to recognize the same patterns everywhere, especially in events. So this is where my 20 years of experience, you know, creating and designing high stakes experiences in global environments started to come together and the dots started to connect. And once I saw that clearly it was hard to ignore. And so that is why I think events isn't just about what we're delivering, it's about whether people actually have the capacity to receive what we've designed for Magdalina Atanassova: them for an event. Professional listening how should they rethink at the behavior through the lens of a capacity problem? What are we misreading today? Yush Sztalkoper: I think the most helpful shift is to start seeing the event as a relationship. So the planner is creating demand. What is being asked of the people across content, pacing, environment. And the attendee is arriving with a certain level of capacity. So what they're being asked to receive. And both sides are constantly responding to each other in real time. So the planner is adjusting based on what they think the audience needs, based on what they're seeing, and then the audience responds based on what they actually have the capacity to receive. So a simple way to think about this relationship is demand plus capacity equals fit. So the equation shows that the planner is creating that demand. And then you consider then the attendee is bringing that capacity to receive it. And whether those align determines what actually happens in the room. And so we're not always seeing that clearly, because what we do is end up misreading those signals as intent. If somebody disengages, we assume they're not interested, right? If they don't participate socially, we assume they don't want to connect. But oftentimes, what's happening is actually something much simpler. They're probably overloaded or overwhelmed, and they just don't have the capacity in that moment to receive more of what's being asked of them. So what then looks like a motivation or behavior problem is often just a reflection of that capacity that they have available. And when we don't see that, what we end up doing is we react at the surface level and we try to fix engagement. And rather than looking at what we actually need to ask, which is what are we asking people in the first place, and do they have the capacity to receive it? Magdalina Atanassova: You know, this reminds me of a conversation I had with another podcast guest long time ago. And the first time I heard him speak was at the conference in 2020, right before everything went nuts. And he has this simple question that he asked his audiences. And I've heard him speak different times online as well as in person. Yush Sztalkoper: He. Magdalina Atanassova: He always asks and starts with this, on a scale of 1 to 10, where are you right now in terms of how you want to engage with what I'm about to say? 10 is like, I'm here, I'm fully on. I will participate. Yes, I'm in. And one is like, I'll just sit back and relax and see what washes over me. And I love this check in. Just because you don't have to say, right, he doesn't care about your number. It's not that everybody has to shout, I'm a 10. He doesn't require that of his audience, but he just takes the. He pauses and asks the audience, think of it. Reflect it for yourself. Yush Sztalkoper: Yes, And I love that question because what he's doing in the moment is asking people to pause and understand their capacity to receive. And once people understand their capacity, they can decide, this is too much for me, or I'm going to open up access to learning, all of it, or I just want to listen to a few things he's going to say that allows the individual. Now my work zooms out even more because what I'm helping planners understand is their role in designing that in the first place. So you're not asking that question in the session, you're asking that question of where are you capacity wise on a scale of 1 to 10 before the event was ever designed. And so that shows you that we have the ability to control what somebody is able to receive. And so then questions like that would become obsolete. We don't need to ask it because we've already designed for it. Right. So that's the anticipatory and sort of proactive approach to planning under the lens that I use that I think is going to transform the way we plan events going forward. Magdalina Atanassova: I'm sure he'll be so happy to participate in an event where he doesn't have to ask the question. So tell me, as AI accelerates and information density increases, are we at risk of designing events that exceed human capacity and what needs to change in how we design and program events in the next few years? Yush Sztalkoper: Well, I think the important thing to recognize is that we're not at risk of this. It's already happening. So this is not a future risk that we need to anticipate. It's already here. And so what we need to think about is the balance that used to exist between what we're asking of people and what they can receive has shifted. So this is how we start to frame understanding what we designed before. Absolutely worked, right? We know it worked. This industry has been operating for so long and is successful. But back then, people had the capacity to take it all in. What we designed met the capacity needs of individuals. There was space to process, there was space to decompress and to integrate what we are asking to absorb. And that's what's changed. AI and acceleration haven't just increased output, they've removed that buffer space. So people are arriving at events already carrying a significant load. They're coming in with full schedules, competing priorities, constant input, and in many cases, underlying stress. So the event is no longer the only demand. What we need to understand is that it's being layered on top of everything they're already holding and so that's where we start to exceed capacity. And the other piece is what this does to native human intelligence, something that we all have. There's now no space to process. We lose the ability to think critically and make sense of complexity and to create meaning in real time. And that's actually the strength of our industry for both the planner and the attendee. So this moment, to me, isn't just about pressure. This moment feels like it's an opportunity, because events is one of the places, one of the few places where we can intentionally design for that. Not just the experience, but how people think, how they connect, how they learn, and ultimately how they make decisions. And the important part is, I think we all know this. This isn't temporary. The environment isn't going back to what it was. So we're not just adapting to a moment. We're designing to a new baseline, which means thinking not just about the event itself, but how do we prepare people for what they're walking back into once they leave our event. So we're thinking way beyond what our event creates. Magdalina Atanassova: I think this segues nicely into what you've worked on. So you've developed the human capacity layer, which is consisting of wiring, regulation, energy, processing, and belonging. So can you walk us through how these show up in events and where planners most often create invisible load across them? Yush Sztalkoper: Yes, and you've been hearing me talk about capacity for the past few minutes. So when I talk about capacity, I'm talking about someone's ability in any given moment to take in what's happening around them and respond to it. And that's very important because it's not fixed. It changes based on what somebody is carrying and what the environment is asking of them. And it's not just one thing. It's made up of these multiple areas that are interacting in real time. So wiring is how someone is naturally built to engage. Regulation is whether their system is calm or overwhelmed. Energy and biology is what they physically have available, and processing is how much they can take in and retain. And belonging is whether they feel safe enough to participate. And each of these show up directly in event design. Wiring affects the format. Regulation shows up in the environment. Energy shows up in pacing, Processing shows up in content, density, and belonging shows up in participation. So planners have been designing for these all along. What's changed is that load that I refer to that people are carrying when they arrive, that load is invisible. And this is where we are adding to that invisible load. So when formats don't match, how people are wired to engage when Environments overwhelm regulation. And when pacing exceeds energy and when content is too dense for processing, or when people don't feel like they can fully participate, those are things that are quietly reducing what people can actually receive. And so the shift is making this layer visible before you start to make design decisions, not after. Because when you're on site, it's too late. You can observe and take that back for the future. But the power we have now is to think about all of these things, anticipate them, and design for them accordingly. And so these, I see, are levers that determine whether what you design ultimately actually lands in a human system. Magdalina Atanassova: You mentioned it, and I just want to stop there for a second. So if I'm walking through a conference as a planner, what are the signals, either behavior or environmental, that tell you capacity is being compressed? Yush Sztalkoper: Well, here's the thing is a lot of that load, like I mentioned, is invisible. And so you actually see it in very subtle ways. So there are signals, if you know what to look for. And it doesn't look like a big clear problem. And this is why the five domains are very helpful and necessary, because it gives you sort of these areas that you can map to. Okay, this is a signal. I see. This is regulation. And so attention drops, people are on their phones during sessions. We're seeing this a lot more. Interactions are getting shorter, people are leaving earlier, or there's just less engagement overall. And environmentally, it often just feels like it's too much. If you feel like there's too much noise, there's too much movement, there's too much density across the agenda, then these are signals. So from the planner side, it often shows up as well. I feel like we're doing everything right, but it's not landing for some reason, because we're seeing all these behavioral changes, but those are the signals. So if you see them as signals, you start to realize that there's nothing wrong per se, with our audience. It's just that have you considered the demands that you're layering on top of what they're already holding on their plates, what they carried coming into this event? So if you look at it through that capacity lens, you can start to see where that load might be coming from or where it might be concentrating? So it might just be that they have too much going on to process, or they don't have enough energy to sustain them through the whole conference, or the environment is just making it really hard for them to regulate or engage. So these signals aren't random. They're pointing to A mismatch across these five areas, right? The wiring, regulation, energy, processing and belonging. And once you can see that, then you will know where to adjust. Magdalina Atanassova: You've shifted the conversation from wellness and regulation to human capacity, as we've heard so far. So how do you explain that shift in a business context? And how does it directly influence outcomes like engagement, learning and decision making? Yush Sztalkoper: So in a business context, this to me comes down to whether you're investing in what actually translates to outcomes. We've spent a lot of time focusing on what we deliver. Content, programming, experience, design. But what ultimately determines impact is what people are able to receive. So if people can't receive what you've designed, it doesn't translate. No matter how strong the content experience or experience is. Saying that's where capacity becomes critical. Because capacity is actually what determines whether somebody can engage, whether they can process or connect or make decisions in that moment. So if you think back to that equation that we talked about earlier, demand plus capacity equals fit. The event is creating that demand. The attendee is bringing the capacity. When those two align, you get the engagement, the learning, and the decisions that actually carry forward, right? Because events, it's not something that happens at one point in time and everything ends after that. You want something to carry from there. When they don't align, even a well designed event won't fully translate to what they carry forward. And that's where the value is actually quietly lost. So this shift from wellness to capacity is really a shift from supporting people after the fact that to designing in an anticipatory way so where what you actually built lands the way that you intended. Because you can't out design capacity, you can actually only design in alignment with it. And so when you consider the capacity, all these other outcomes that you want from a business perspective becomes more achievable. Magdalina Atanassova: In the last episode, we discussed with David how wellness design improves retention and dwell time and overall roi. So how does designing for human capacity changes or deepens how we think about those outcomes? Yush Sztalkoper: To me, the business outcomes are same no matter what you focus on, right? Retention, dwell time, engagement, outcomes impact, they're really all the same. But designing for capacity deepens how we think think about what those outcomes actually lead to. And so because the goal to me isn't just making people stay longer or engage more in that moment, it's whether anything actually stays with them that they carry with them outside of the event, after the event, did they understand something differently? Did they connect in a meaningful way? Did something help shape the way that they're going to make decisions after they leave the event. And that only happens when people have the capacity to actually receive and process and make meaning of what's happening in the room. So wellness conversations, neuro inclusion conversations, all of those are all pointing to the same thing. We're helping people be able to receive, process, and make meaning of what's happening at the event. So capacity doesn't replace any of those metrics. It just explains whether they translate into something more. And events aren't just experiences we create. To me, they shape decisions, decisions that have a business outcome. And those decisions then carry into their teams or the organizations the real work that is being done. And to me, that's where the real value is. AD: Planners are embracing tier two destinations for new attendee experiences—and Madison, Wisconsin delivers. With city lake scenery, green spaces, and a safe walkable downtown, Madison will leave your attendees feeling recharged and reconnected. Enjoy urban amenities, a welcoming vibe, and coffee under forty-eight dollars a gallon. Learn more or submit an RFP at visit madison dot com slash PCMA. Magdalina Atanassova: I just want people to hear this one more time. Really, it's what carries forward. That's why we organize events in the first place. Sometimes I feel we forget that. Unfortunately, yes. Yush Sztalkoper: I mean, look, planners have so much on their plate to consider, and I think this is something real. We're just trying to meet the bare minimum of how do we deliver this event. And the reality is that's very critical. But now I think the opportunity is how do we shift to thinking, how do we create this experience that carries something forward to after they leave? And not saying that this wasn't something we considered before, but now I just think we have a clear lens into how we do that and what are the variables, those levers I mentioned before that help us understand, well, what do we focus on? Because it feels like there's so many different things we need to focus on. And so I think oftentimes it becomes a reactive process where designers and planners are thinking, okay, I need to do all these things as a baseline. But now we know that design process can actually be differentiated when you start to think earlier about what the audience can receive. Magdalina Atanassova: So let's make this practical. What are a few realistic design shifts planners can make to reduce load? And if the budget stays the same, which we know it will, where would you reallocate first? Yush Sztalkoper: Well, this is where the five domains, those five areas I've been talking about, become really practical. Because once you can see where capacity is being compressed or concentrated, the shift becomes much more obvious. So, for example, wiring, as we know, shows up in the format. Not everyone engages the same way. So offering variation in how people take in content or connect makes a real difference. Regulation shows up in the environment, noise, crowding, visual stimulation. And this is actually where our industry has started to move, especially around neuro inclusive design. That's because a lot More awareness around sensory experience and small changes there, right? How loud the space is, how crowded it feels, how visually intense it is, can significantly reduce this invisible load. And what this lens does is it expands that thinking beyond just accommodating a small group of people and into how the overall environment is shaping what people can actually receive together. And so if you look at energy, it shows up as spacing. I'm sure you heard about this in the previous podcast is back to back sessions, long days, constant stimulation. How do you have the energy to manage and sustain all of that? And what I would say is instead of trying to maximize every minute, which is, I think a common habit of our industry, you need to intentionally build in transitions and breaks so people can have time to reset. Earlier I talked about how our accelerated world has just compressed everything, right? Time, space, and everything together. So we, we need to almost design the opposite of that. How do we build back in these buffers that used to exist naturally and now we have to intentionally design for processing. If you look at processing, a lot of events are just simply asking people to take in too much too quickly. So one shift is just reducing the content density and use the opportunity to create more space between sessions so that something can actually land, right? Some important content actually can be absorbed and integrated and received. And the last one is belonging. Belonging shows up in participation. Are there multiple ways to engage or is there only one? Do you feel like people can enter a conversation easily or do they have to push themselves in? So these are the shifts that if you follow the five domains, you start to understand where you can address. And none of them is about adding more. They're actually about adjusting the how the experience is structured so more of what you've already built can be received. And from a budget perspective, I think people are going to love hearing this. It's definitely reallocation. You might actually get more money back or have more money to play with. Less spend on volume, like adding more sessions and more intention in how time, space and flow are designed. Those things oftentimes don't cost anything, right? It's just about shifting the format around. So in many cases you're doing less and actually getting more to land. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. I'm already connecting the dots between different things you are saying and what David was saying. I love it. So you also often say that we need to stabilize people before expecting results. What does stabilization look like in an event setting and what changes when we get that right? Yush Sztalkoper: So the question I always ask is, do you think people arrive to an event with a blank slate. I obviously mentioned this earlier. The answer is clearly no. Most people haven't, though, thought about that. But when you pause on it, it's very clear that they don't. People are arriving, carrying this really much bigger load than we've ever had to carry before. What's happening in their work, on their teams, in their personal lives, decisions. They're holding pressure. They're under everything that came before they even showed up to this event. So stabilization is really about understanding the state that people are arriving in, because that becomes the baseline for everything that follows. If someone enters feeling grounded and settled, they have more capacity available to engage, think, connect, and make decisions. If they arrive in stress or overwhelm, that becomes the filter through which they experience the entire event. And that's why arrival matters so much. You're not just welcoming people, right? You're preparing them for what's to come. This is anticipatory design. And so a simple example is the difference between walking into a loud, crowded registration area with long lines and constant stimulation. Are you familiar with that experience vary versus arriving into a space that feels calm, clear, easy to navigate, where there's this natural moment to orient yourself before you are asked to give anything. And so that small shift then changes how someone enters the entire experience. And when that's done well, everything else becomes more accessible. Your job becomes easier, and the event's job, the demands, Right, become less demanding. And so people become more present, they process more, and they connect more easily. And then they're more likely then to carry something forward from that event. And so this arrival sort of sequence to me is very crucial in stabilizing your attendees. Magdalina Atanassova: I had a mental picture of different events, literally that popped up into my head where you can really feel the difference. So thank you for bringing this up. You advocate for universal design. So designing from the edges so that everyone benefits. What does that look like at events? And how can planners reframe this for stakeholders who see it as designing for a minority? Yush Sztalkoper: Yes, and I feel like our industry is moving forward. I mentioned earlier the neuro inclusive design practices I'm starting to see more commonly. But, you know, designing from the edges, to me means designing for the person that's carrying the greatest load. This doesn't even have anything to do with identity. This is the person whose capacity is the most constrained. They're tired, overstimulated, overwhelmed, simply just have the least available in that moment. Because if your event works for that person, it works for everyone else. And that shows up in the Same areas we've been talking about. Pacing, environment, format, and how people are actually able to participate. So what's important to me is how we frame it. This isn't about designing for a minority group of people. It's about using the edges as a separate signal for what humans actually need under real conditions. We all know events are intense, compressed, and asking a lot of people. And so these edges, these edge cases reveal where demand is exceeding capacity most clearly. And when you design for that, you reduce the friction across the entire experience. And so for stakeholders, the shift is this. You're not designing for fewer people. You're increasing the likelihood that more people can actually receive what you've already invested in. I think that changes the conversation. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. I love it how you put the perspective also of the investment, because people can think of money, but it's also time and time away from everything else you could have been doing. So interesting. Yush Sztalkoper: Yeah. I mean, people are taking time out of their busy lives to come to your event. And when you start to think about that, your responsibility to create an experience that lands in every nervous system for every individual start to look like a much bigger picture. Right. Than just, oh, I'm designing for this one. Identity. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. You've recently developed tools like Capacity reflection, which I love already and know your audience. How can planners use these in practice to design better conditions? Yush Sztalkoper: At a certain point, a lot of what I talked about can be too much to hold conceptually. Right. Because it's a newer reframe, newer way of thinking, newer way of designing. And the natural question becomes, how do I actually apply all of this in the middle of real work? And that's what led me to actually build these tools. Not as a solution or just as something that you use, but as a way to make this way of thinking more accessible. I can't have conversations with you all the time, and I can't teach these frameworks and talk about them all the time. But I want to give somebody something that doesn't require me to be in the room. So capacity reflection is the first one I built, and that is for the individual. So what it does is it helps people see where strain is concentrating across those five areas so they can understand what's shaping their capacity in the first place. Because a lot of the time, people assume something is wrong with them. They're not able to keep up or they're behind or they're struggling. But in reality, it's actually a mismatch between what's being asked and what's available. So now you start to understand how that demand plus capacity equals fit equation is kind of sort of the foundation of how I design capacity reflection. It's seeing that clearly that gives people back the sense of agency. So you start to remove this, oh, it's my fault. It's, something's wrong with me. I'm too slow to wait. There are conditions in my environment, these demands, that's actually putting pressure on my capacity and taking away from my capacity. And so when you start to understand that relationship, you start to make different decisions about what you do next. And know your audience is the planner's version of that. So what it does is it captures everything we've talked about in a very practical way of understanding who's arriving to your event, what they are carrying, and how your design decisions actually shape what they can receive. And the important part is these tools are not meant to be prescriptive. So at the end of them, you don't get this checklist of what to do. They're designed, the whole process from question one, they're designed to disrupt autopilot. Because most of us are now conditioned to function autopilot. There's just sheer volume of information and work and load. We're just trying to just get to the next thing. And so autopilot is what protects us in this sort of survival mode, to be able to just get to the next thing. And so I'm intentionally wanting to disrupt that autopilot. And so instead of moving straight from input to action, I'm actually inviting people to pause and see what's really happening, to understand the relationship of their capacity and the demand. So in the events industry perspective, it's the demand that you are designing and whether your audience has a capacity to receive it. And so what these tools do is they make something that's usually invisible, visible, and they give people a way to start designing differently without needing to fully master the entire system first. And over time, that's the shift. It's not a checklist. It's about how you see. And once that changes, everything then shifts from there. So you carry this sort of design thinking with you, not just into your next event, but to every event after that. And it starts to help you understand your relationship, your workload and your audiences. And all these things start to become clear, and all the decisions after that then shifts. Magdalina Atanassova: For planners who are trying to advocate internally and also feeling stretched themselves, and I can't help but use what you're saying, they're in this survival mode, which is a scary place to operate from how can they make the case that protecting human capacity is not a nice have, and what's one small shift they can realistically implement at their very next event? Yush Sztalkoper: Yes, and I think the ROI conversation itself needs to shift, because what's changed is not how much we're delivering. Right. What's changed is what people are actually able to receive. Historically, we talk about what we're delivering, all these things, and how do we get the ROI out of what we're delivering? But now we understand, well, it's great what you're delivering, but is what's on the receiving end actually able to absorb all of that? And so the environments we're operating in, as you know, is faster, denser, more demanding. Capacity is no longer a variable. It's the constraint. So if we're not designing for it, we're designing experiences that won't fully translate into value. And this is why this is not a nice to have. It's the condition that determines whether anything we built actually even works. So events, to me, aren't just these experiences that we create. They shape decisions. Those decisions I talked about that carry forward right into the teams, the organizations, these real outcomes. But that can only happen if people have the capacity to receive what you designed in the first place, process it, and then act on those things. And so this, to me, isn't an enhancement in how we design. It's a requirement for how we design going forward. If you want a simple place to start, it's this. Instead of assuming your audience has a fixed capacity, start designing for understanding that it changes across the event. What they can receive at the beginning of the day is different from the middle and different again by the end. So the shift is to start asking, how does what we're asking of people change across the experience? And. And does their capacity support that? And this is probably kind of alignment with the wellness conversation, because once you start to see that relationship, your decisions begin to change naturally. And that's where this connects back to, you know, wellness neuro, occlusion, all these other conversations. Energy matters, but that's just one part of it. What we're really designing is for capacity across all those five areas and how that changes across the event. And once you see that, you can design for that and you can almost ensure, sure, the outcome that you expected. So all those ROI conversations around, you know, business outcomes, retention, NPS scores and, you know, sort of revenue, those translate from designing for capacity, not designing for more content and more experience and more deliverables. Magdalina Atanassova: Was there anything we didn't mention, but we definitely should. Before we wrap up, we have the Yush Sztalkoper: opportunity of our time to do something different. And I think defense is the industry that can truly lead in how we determine what we focus on when it comes to meeting humans, human needs. Right. Because we design for it. We are the ones responsible for connection, learning, engagement, all of these really core human needs and functions. If we can get it right in the events industry, that can then ripple out to teams, families, organizations, communities and societies and other industries. And this is the power that events has that no other industry has, is that we are in the business of humans. And so if we can get this design element right and how we anticipate what humans need and design for it accordingly, then we set the standard for everyone else. And this allows humans to really be able to carry this through to a complex environment, environment that's constantly changing, an environment that just feels like it's moving at the speed that humans are not sustainably able to catch up. So to me, this is sort of the only way. Magdalina Atanassova: I love it. Thank you so much for this conversation. This has been, in a way, healing to hear a lot of those things, a lot of the tools, I mean, to me personally, it's been a healing journey internally and I hope it's something that would help take a little bit of the load off from event planners as well. So thank you so much for, for your time, for your insights and for all your work because it's important. Yush Sztalkoper: Thank you so much for having me. I think, you know, I just. This is such a privilege to be able to share my work with others. And having spent so much time in this industry and that I love and want to make a big impact in, it was a no brainer for me to move in this direction. And if this is something that can help others, it's work that is meaningful and worth is. Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you. Yush Sztalkoper: Thank you so much. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. We want to thank our sponsor, Destination Madison. Go to visit madison dot com slash PCMA to learn more. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.