Latest / Gil I Am / Who is Jesus Christ the Son of God...Lee Strobel

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Who is Jesus Christ the Son of God...Lee Strobel · Gil I Am

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lee Strobel, Welcome to the show.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Thanks Sean. Great to be with you.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: It's I'm honored to have you here.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: I'm honored to be here. I watch your show and
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: love the way you engage with your guests, so I thought, hey,
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: it sounds like it could be a fun experience. So
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here.
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, thank you for saying that. So sorry
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: about the way I get. I get nervous for every
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: one of these interviews. So half the time when I
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: say I'm down there going through my outline, I'm just procrastinating.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: But but uh no, seriously, though, I've been We've been
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: trying to get a hold.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Of you for over a year now, and we finally
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: got you up, and so I've just i've been I've
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: been really anticipating this interview and and and it's just
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: you've been a major part in my my journey to faith.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: And I know you don't know that, but but as
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: I'm sure you have been for a for millions and
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: millions of people, and so it is.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: It is truly an honored have you here.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it. It's been a great adventure. You know,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: if you told me, you know, years ago, that I
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: would end up not only being a Christian but telling
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: other people about Jesus. I would have slammed the door
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: in your face. I would not have anticipated this at all.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: So yeah, well I can't wait to dive into that.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: But so we're going to release this episode on Christmas.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Probably it'll be either Christmas Eve or Christmas, but we
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: haven't decided yet. But I've been wanting to do this,
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: like I said, since last year, and so to have
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: you here in time to get it edited for Christmas
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: is I think you're just the perfect guest. So I
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: want to dive into your backstory some of the books
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: you've written, especially Case for Christ, and I want to
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm learning here. So I'm a very curious person.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I use my curiosity in all of my interviews, and
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: and the thing that I'm most curious about more than
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: anything any of the other stuff that I interview is
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: is Jesus Christ and in the Bible. And so if
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: you can help me, I would like to keep the theme.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: We're going to go into some dark places. I'm sure
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: we're going to go into some rabbit holes, but overall,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: I really want to talk about who is Jesus Christ
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: and what does he mean to you and the rest
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: of Christianity, and and so if you get a favorite subject,
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: good mine too.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: So And like I said, I'm I'm learning. I'm learning.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: We all are. We are.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I read the Bible, and most of the time I'm
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: just being honest. I have no idea what I just read.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: And so I I have a bunch of different versions.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I've been diving into this one called the it's called
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: the Action Bible. It's more like a comic like comic
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: book sections, but they have little snippets that break.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: It down for dummies like me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: I like that and it helps, it helps, But I
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: can't wait to get your perspective on some of this stuff.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: Sure so, but leeh, I know we did this at breakfast,
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: but I would love I would be honored, and I
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: would love to kick this off with a prayer.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and have you lead it.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to let me pray. Father, Thank you
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: for Sean. Thank you for you've given him this curiosity
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: about you, about faith, about issues that really really matter.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you that you've given him a platform where he
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: can take people along with him on that journey, and
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: that we can all explore and discover together. We do
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: pray for your blessing on our conversation, that it would
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: be encouraging, that it would be illuminating that I know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: dare I even pray it that it'd be life changing
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: for some people. We pray this in Jesus' name.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Amen, Amen, I would like to add just a couple
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of things.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I just you know, it's been a it's been a
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: some turbulent times in the world and in the and
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: in our country, the United States, and I just I
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: just want everybody to have a really good merry Christmas
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: this year, and hope it's filled with family and love
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: and Lee just some of the things that we spoke
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: about at breakfast in your family. I just hope you
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: guys find some answers in relief. And Amen, Amen, thank you,
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: thank you.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Sure. So everybody starts with an introduction here, so you have.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Quite the background, so we abbreviated. I hope we got
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: all the important parts here. But Lee Strobel, you are
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: a former atheist, investigative journalist, and legal editor turned Christian
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: after investigating the evidence for Christianity. You are an author
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: of forty plus books, numerous best selling books on christian
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: on Christianity, including The Case for Christ, which documents your
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: journey from atheism Christianity. Your newest book is God Real,
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: exploring the Ultimate Question of Life, examines the evidence for
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: the existence of God. Your books have sold over fourteen
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: million copies and been translated into multiple languages. Several of
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: your books, including The Case for Christ, have been made
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: into films and documentaries. You are a renowned public speaker
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: and apologist, frequently addressing topics related to faith, evidence for God,
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: and the resurrection of Jesus. You have become a household
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: name in the Christian community and very influential in helping
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: skeptics explore Christianity intellectually and spiritually. In addition to all this,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: you have been married to your wife for fifty two years,
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: your father of two children, and have embraced the role
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: of a grandfather. Congratulations, thank you for grandkids, four grandkids.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: So a couple things here, what is what is the
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: definition of an atheist?
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: An atheist says there is no God. An agnostics says,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's a God. So that's kind of
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: the dividing line. A lot of people who call themselves
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: atheists are really agnostic because when you think about it,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: to say there is no God, you would have to
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: be God to have that, you know, that omniscience to
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: know that God does not exist. So it's kind of
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: a self refuting definition. But generally people who are atheists
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: say there is no God. Agnostics say, I just don't know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure, I don't believe it, I'm not there,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I'm questioning, I'm doubting. I'm a doubter.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: But you were straight atheists, yeah, I was.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: So is that that sounds.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: Like a lot of work to prove that there is nothing?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I kind of came in stages, you know. So
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: the first step was when I was in middle school
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: and I started asking all those questions that middle schoolers
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: like to ask, like, well, if there's a God, how
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: can there be suffering in the world, Or if there's
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: a God, why would he send people a hell? And
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: nobody wanted to talk about it, And I thought, oh,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: I get it. They don't want to talk about this
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: because they're no good answers. That was my first step.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Second step in atheism was in high school when I
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: took biology and I was thought that neo Darwinism explains
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: the origin and diversity of life. So God's out of
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: a job. You don't need God to be a creator.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Science explains it away. And then third and final step
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: in atheism happened in college when I took a course
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: on the historical Jesus from a skeptic and he taught
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: me you can't trust anything that the Bible tells you
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: about Jesus. It's all fairy tale, make believe, wishful thinking.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: And that kind of was the final nail in the
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: coffin that convinced me that, yeah, God doesn't it Just
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: I tend to be a skeptical person. That's that's who
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: I am. My backgrounds and journalism in law. So you
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: put those together, you know, you get kind of a
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: jerk and kind of a kind of a skeptic. And
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and and that's where I was. So I just thought
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: the mere concept of an all loving, all knowing, all
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: powerful creator of the universe, come on, it's crazy. Wasn't
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: even worth my time exploring. So is it?
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: So?
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Is it? So it is actually a belief system?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: It is, Oh, definitely, definitely. I believe there is faith involved.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: That you have to have a certain amount of faith,
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: not in God, but in your own intellect, in your
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: own ability to discern and and and figure out that
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: there is no God behind all this stuff. So I
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: think there's faith involved. Faith means trust. You're putting your
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: trust in yourself that I'm smarter than everybody else. I
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: know that there is no God, and I'm going to
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: live a life consistent with that. And that's what I did.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I'd lived a life consistent with my atheism.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Interesting, so would you would you? Would you.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Spend time trying to disprove God to colleagues, friends, family members,
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: people that you've run into, anybody that brought up the
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: existence of God?
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would, scoff, I would mock. I would. I
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: didn't spend a lot of time trying to deconstruct their faith,
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: but I certainly didn't buy it and would make fun
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: of it and make light of it. Because my attitude was, Okay,
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: if there is no God, if there is no heaven,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: if there is no hell, if there is no judgment,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: if there is no ultimate accountability, then the most logical
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: way for me to live my life would be as
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: a hedonist. So I'm going to just pursued pleasure. And
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: so that's what I did. I lived a very immoral, drunken, profane, narcissistic,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: self absorbed, in some ways self destructive kind of life.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: That was my life. What people saw was my success.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: I was the legal editor of the Chicago tribu I've
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: written books in television. I mean they see the success side.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: They didn't see was me literally drunk in the snow
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: in an alley on Saturday night. So they weren't getting
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: the full picture of who I was. But for me,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: it's like, if there is no judgment, accountability, this is
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: all you get. You might as well just try to
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: keep yourself happy. Live as a Heatonist, try to bring
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: as much quote unquote happiness into life as you can.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: And I was the friendliest drunk in the bar. You know,
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: I would be the guy who get plastered by midnight
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: and then I'd get pictures of beer and just go
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: out and fill everybody's glasses up. And I was the
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: friendliest guy in the bar.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I could definitely relate to that. I'm sure
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: we have a lot in common. I was also very
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: very similar for a long, long long time. But before
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: we get two in the weeds with everything, it is Christmas, So.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, got you a gift? Oh, come on, everybody gets everybody.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Gets all fine? Should I open it?
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Go ahead?
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: All right?
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: Those are vigilancely gummy bear, rummy bear right here in
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: the USA.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Nice, thank you. What else you do? She came two
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: of them? That's awesome. Well, thanks, I appreciate. I got
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: a gift for you. Thank you. You know. I have
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: a new book coming out in March of twenty twenty five.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: It's called Seeing the Supernatural. One of the things that
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: and the subtitle is investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world. And
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: so I spent a lot of time in this book.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: And what publishers do is they produce what's called an
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: advanced reader's copy that goes out to reviewers and to
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: the media. The actual book is a jacketed hardcover and everything.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: But this is the first copy, that's copy, the most
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: copy number one. I sawnd it to you to sean
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: first copy. I just thought you might like, say.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Oh man, that is uh, thank you, you're welcome.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: This is getting framed and put in a studio. Thank you,
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: thank you, thank you. What we're going to dive into
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: this more towards the end of the interview a little bit.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: But what I'm just curious.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: You know what, there's a lot of talk about spiritual
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: warfare right now, and so I'm just I'm always curious,
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: you know, what gets people into What prompted you to
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: write this book.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: It's a great question. We live in a scientific age,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: we live in a technological age, and there's a lot
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: of people who say that science disproves Christianity disproves faith,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: which I disagree with. And they say there's nothing more
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: to reality than what we can see in touch. And
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I said, that's not true. There is more to reality
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: than what we can see in touch, and I wanted
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: to document it in this book by looking at things
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: like a mirror God's intervention in his creation in a
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: way that cannot be explained in any other way other
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: than God is entering into our world and creating a miracle.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Deathbed visions people see just before they die often a
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: glimpse of what's to come. Stephen in the Bible, just
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: before he died, he saw a glimpse of heaven, and
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: this is extremely common. So I have a chapter on
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: that near death experiences people who are clinically dead and
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: yet have an experience that's corroborated in one way or
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the other direct encounters from God, how God reaches down
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: and touches lives, mystical dreams. I believe and the Bible
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: teaches this that there is a realm beyond what we
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: can currently see in touch, and it is every bit
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: as real as the realm that we're in and experienced
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: day by day. Spiritual warfare comes in because part of
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: that other realm is there is a demonic element. We
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: have angels, literally hundreds of millions of angels that exists.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: There's spirits, but there's also demons and Satan whose name
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: had been Lucifer before he fell as an angel and
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: is now in warfare with God's plan. You know, he
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: sometimes reaches into our world. And there are in my
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: book I document cases of possession, demonic possession. This is
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: real stuff. Now, demons cannot possess a Christian because we're
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: in dwelled by the Holy Spirit. That we can't be
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: in dwell at the same time by a demonic spirit.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: But Satan can hector us, he can harass us. And
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: so spiritual warfare is a way that we protect ourselves
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: through prayer and through vigilance and through reading scripture and
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: understanding why we believe what we believe, these various things
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: we can do to kind of ward off these hacks
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: that we otherwise might experience.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: Interesting when you say hundreds of millions of angels, Yeah,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: where do you come up with that?
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Because there's a there's a passage in scripture where John
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: gets a vision of the post resurrection Jesus on his
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: throne and he says there are ten thousand times ten
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: thousand angels there. Well, that's one hundred million angels just
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: in that setting around the throne of Jesus worshiping him.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: So we got a minimum of one hundred million angels.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I believe that's just the tip of an iceberg.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: So do we become angels when we die?
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: No? No, we are made in God's image. We have
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: capabilities that angels don't have. They have capabilities we don't have.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: But they are a separate creation. What kind of capabilities
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: that they would have?
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Both?
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, they are not embodied, so their spirits,
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: so they have the ability to move and transport themselves
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: at great speed. That's why you see many pictures of
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: angels with wings on them. They don't technically have wings generally,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: but they're able to move, you know, a lot faster
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: than we are. Because their spirits are not encumbered by
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a human body, they don't grow old, they don't age,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: so because there's no physical body to get older and older.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Have they always been Yeah?
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: No, God at some point created them. This would have
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: probably been before the creation of the world, and he
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: created these legions of angels whose purpose is described in
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: scripture to minister to God's people. And you know, there
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: are indications this is a bit of a dispute in
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the Christian world, but there are indications that we have
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: a guardian angel, that is, an angel who specifically kind
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: of guards over us and watches over us.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: That's disputed.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: It's disputed. There are people who disagree with that. I
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: think there's two passages in scripture that suggests that it's real.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Certain denominations certainly believe in it. The Orthodox Christian Church
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: believes at the time of baptism you are assigned a
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: guardian angel. Others believe that you have one from the
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: time that you're born, the time or the time that
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: you become a Christian. Peter, there's some indication that Peter
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: had guardian angel We see that in scripture when Jesus
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: was talking about little children, he said, don't you know,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: don't disregard these little kids because they're angels see the
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: face of God every day? Well, who are their angels?
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: That would? I think guardian angels watching over them. So
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: there are some passion. Now there is some scripture that
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: is outside the Protestant Bible and in the Catholic Bible
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: that talks more about guardian angels. So Catholics may have
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: a little bit stronger view of this than Protestants would.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: But I think there's sufficient evidence. I talked about this
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: in my new book, sufficient evidence that guardian angels really
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: do exist.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: What we're getting way into it already here, But what
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: evidence is there? Well, have guardian angels?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: First the Jesus talking about the fact that the children,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: they're angels, see the face of God every day. So
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: who's he referring to? These little children have angels? Yeah,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: that would be consistent if guardian angels actually existed. There's
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: another case where Peter escaped from prison and everybody thought
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: he was still locked up, and he goes he knocks
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: on a house to see his buddies and the servant
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: hears his voice and says, hey, Peter's here. They say,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: can't be here, he's in prison. Maybe it's his angel. Okay, well,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: is that a guardian angel they're talking about now? In
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Jewish cult, sure, in the first century they believed in
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: guardian angels. And some people will say, oh, well, that's
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: that's not saying, according to the Bible there are guardian angels.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: That's just a nod to the Jewish culture of the day.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I'm not so sure. I think when you look at
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: these couple of passages, and also what is the purpose
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: of angels but to minister to God's people, I think
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: it's logical that guardian angels may exist. Others disagree, so
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: that it is a point of contention.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: What's what is the what's the disagreement? I believe it.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I believe it. We talked about my.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Yea, my four four four experience, right, I tell everybody this, Yeah,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: but it it.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I think the disagreement comes where people think that the
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: scriptural support for it is not strong enough that if
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: indeed we did have guardians, it would be more explicit,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: to be clearer in the Bible that we've got guardian
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: angels and there's no one verse that I can point
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: to that clearly and unequivocally says, oh, yeah, everybody has
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: a guardian angel, or every follower of God or whoever
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: has a guardian angel. But I think the passages I
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: just mentioned, at least two passages are suggestive that Peter
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: had his angel and these children had their angel. Who
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: are you talking about there? If it's theirs, that suggests
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: that there would be an angel who was assigned to them.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: So I lean toward the idea that there is a
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: guardian angel for folks.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: So would it be safe to say that angels are
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: the arch nemesis the equivalent of good to a demon
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: in a sense?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, they would certainly be our protectors against demonic
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: influence and demonic harassment and so forth. We see instances
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: of them as being warriors. Give you an example, Billy
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Graham tells his story. There was a true story of
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: a missionary from scott who was in a South Pacific
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: island and the local tribe got very upset that he
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: was there to talk about Jesus, and they went to
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: murder him and his family. And they came and surrounded
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: his house, and so him and his family got in
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: there and they what can we do? We can pray,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: that's all we can do. This crowd is mob is
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: intent on killing us, and so they prayed all night
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: God protect us, God Protect us, and the mob by
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: dawn dissipated and nothing happened. Well, the leader of that
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: mob later became a Christian, and that missionary talked to
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: him and said, hey, by the way, what happened that
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: one night when you came to kill us and the
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: mob was formed around our house? Why didn't you kill us?
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: And he said, well, we couldn't do it with all
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: those men you had guardened the house. He said, what
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: do you talking about. There have any men guarding the house?
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: He said, no, we saw them. That were these men.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: They had swords that were drawn, and they rounded your
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: house and we figured there's no way we can go
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: in and attack these people in light of these guards
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: around the house. Well who are they? They were angels
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: and God had sent angels to protect them. And there's
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: stories like that. I mean, in my book, I document
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: stories where people have experiences with angels. I was talking
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: to a famous theologian. You know how theologians are. They're
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: very kind of buttoned down and he was talking about
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: growing up in a Pentecostal church family Pentecostal church, and
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: he said, yeah. He said, one day, years and years
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and years ago, this local family from our church was
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: driving in their car and their son was in the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: back seat. He was like ten years old and we
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: didn't have seat belts back then, and he opened the
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: door and he fell out of the car, going like
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: seventy miles an hour. And they thought, my gosh, our
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: son's been killed. They turned around, they came back and
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: there he was standing there, perfectly fine, and they said
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: what happened? And he said, you didn't see the man
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: catch me? And this theologian began to weep. He began
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: he got tears in his eyes. He had to take
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: his handkerchief out and wipe his eyes. He said, I
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: missed that. That that that being in a church that
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: really took this other worldly stuff seriously, because I believe
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: it was an angel that the same. Can I tell
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: you something I don't generally tell people. This was like
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: a confessional, but I was visited by an angel when
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I was a child. I was a youngster, and I
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: had a dream. It's the only dream I remember from
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: my childhood. It was more vivid, more real, more colorful
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: than any dream I'd ever had, And an angel appeared
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to me, and I just knew intuitively he was from heaven.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: He was, and he started telling me about heaven and
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: the beauty and the wonder and the joy of heaven,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: and I'm kind of nodding along, or in the kitchen
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: of our house and I'm kind of nodding along. I said, well,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to go there someday. And he
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: looked at me and said, how do you know? What
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: do you mean? How do I know? I'm I'm a
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: good kid. I obey my parents pretty much, I've been
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: to Sunday school a couple of times. I try to
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: be nice to people. And he looked at me and
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: he said that doesn't matter. And this cold chill went
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: through me. He's like, how can that not matter? All
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: my efforts to be good, all my efforts to be obedient,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: you're telling me they don't matter. And he said, someday
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: you'll understand. And that was the end of the dream.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Sixteen years later, that prophecy came true when my wife
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: dragged me to a church as an atheist January twenty
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and the pastor got up and he talked
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: about heaven, and he talked about heaven is not a
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: place that we earn our way there and try to
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: achieve something somehow be good enough to enter into have
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: an one of us is good enough to enter into
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: the presence of God in heaven forgiveness and eternal life,
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And heaven is a free gift of God's grace because
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: He loves you. You're made in his image. He wants
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: to spend eternity with your offers. Forgiveness and eternal life
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: is a free gift of his grace. And my first
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: thought was, that's what that angel was talking about sixteen
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: years ago when he said someday I'll understand. And I
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: got it that that I didn't believe. It took a while,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: but this first day I got Oh, I get it.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: That's what Christianity is about. It's not earning your way
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: to heaven. It's receiving a free gift of forgiveness and
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: eternal life.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Wow, how old were you.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: In that, you know, I'd say maybe ten eleven, sometimes
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: ten eleven twelve somewhere in there. I was funny at
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: my ordination when I was being ordained as a pastor
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: years ago. I thought, do I even tell this story?
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Gonna think I'm nuts, you know, And I told it
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: and they all, yeah, okay, I mean that's power for
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: the chorus. We all have stories like that, and not exactly,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: but we all have experiences of God. And but yeah,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that was That was my experience with an angel.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: What did what did the angel look like?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: He? It was? It was male. And by the way,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I did read some scholarly articles from Jewish writers, uh
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: saying that angels can be female, but in scripture they're
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: all male. Doesn't mean they couldn't manifest themselves because they're spirits,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: so they can manifest themselves as a male I assume
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: as a female, but all of them in scripture are male.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: He was.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: He had a soft glow to him and didn't have wings.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: It didn't look like a cartoon character, but there was
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: a gentle glow to him that just intuitively I knew, oh,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: this is an angel. I'm talking to an angel, so
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: look to human. He looked human exactly. And even the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Bible talks about the fact that sometimes when we provide
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: hospitality to someone, we're really providing hospitality to an angel
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: unbeknownst to us, and so angels can manifest themselves as people.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: All I know you're an angel, I don't know, but
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: they can manifest themselves as human.
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: Like well, I told you about my experience in Sedona. Yeah,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: you know, with the with the with the with the
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: gate guard. Yep, I think that's may have been. What
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: that was could very well be. What do you think
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: could very well be?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: I mean now we also have instances where demons. Will
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: you know, Bible says Satan can can appear as a
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: some counterfeit of light. In other words, he can he
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: can pass himself off as being from God or whatever.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So we have to be careful because that's why we
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: have the Bible, I think, to kind of be a
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: plumb line to test is this legit or not? Because
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: demons can they can possess people, they can influence people,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: they can harass people, they can appear in different ways.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: I think we talk about ghosts, I think ghosts are
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: demons because a technical definition of a ghost is someone
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: who dies and their spirit refuses to enter into the
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: next life. Well, that's not a biblical description of what
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: can happen. So if ghosts are not biblical in that sense,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: maybe they're demonic, and I believe they are. I believe that,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: you know, are ghosts real. Well, there's some instances where
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: we see apparitions that I believe are ghostly apparitions that
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: have been quite real, but I believe they're satanic.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I've had encounters with ghosts.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Actually, the guy filming this right now, who's behind the
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: scenes here, had the exact same experience as us in
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: the old Civil War cabin.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: That a couple of experiences. We caught it on camera.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: But wow, Yeah, but what are what are some of
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: the capabilities that humans would have that angels do not.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Well, we have physical mobility in the sense of we
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: have we are a body. We are a spirit who
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: has a body. So God created us as a dualistic thing.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: We we are spirit, but we're also physical. We also
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: have a physical body. That's an advantage in some ways.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I think we're also I think in the pecking order,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: we're actually above angels really in many ways. I think, well,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: actually in the Psalms that says we're created a little
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: bit lower than the angels. But I think there are
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: ways in which we kind of have capabilities that angels
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: maybe don't have, and I mean in terms of having
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: a physical body gives us certain advantages that a spirit
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: that doesn't have a body would not have.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, well that was that was a great, great
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: little warm up.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: But well, Lee, I have a I have a a
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: Patreon account that's a subscription account, and those are our
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: top supporters. Yeah, and so one of the things I
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: do they've been with us since the beginning, is I
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: always offer them the opportunity to ask each guest a question.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: O great, and so we had a ton of questions
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: for you. This one is from Jared Russo are Christians
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: guaranteed heaven once they confess with their mouth and believe
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: it in their heart as Jesus, Paul and many others
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: have said. If not, what have Christians done that caused
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: God to say I never knew you?
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Like it says in the Bible, Well.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: A definition of a Christian would be someone who has
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: done exactly what he said. In other words, someone who
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: confesses that Jesus's Lord, Jesus is God, the repents of
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: their sin, turns from their sin, admits that receives His
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: free gift of forgiveness and eternal life, that Jesus purchased
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: for us on the cross when he died, is our
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: substitute to pay for all of our sins when that
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: happens when a person, the Bible says, is the verse
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that brought me to faith John one to twelve. But
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: as many as received him to them, he gave the
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: right to become children of God, even to those who
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: believe in his name. So the formula there is believe
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: plus receive equals become. So we believe based on the data.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I believe anyway, based on the data of history, that
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Jesus is who he claimed to be. He proved it
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: by returning from the dead. So I believe that. But
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I had to take another step. I had to receive,
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: And receiving is confessing that Jesus is who he claimed
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: to be. He is God, he is Lord my sin,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: receiving forgiveness from Jesus. When I do that, I become
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: a Christian, someone who is told someday by Jesus be gone.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: I never knew you would not have been a Christian
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: because a Christian, to be a Christian would need to
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: receive Jesus as a forgiver and leader through a prayer
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: like that. And once that happens, I believe, once saved,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: always saved. Once you are adopted as a son of
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: God that way, then he never disowns his children. And
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: so you're safely in the Kingdom of God, and that
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: when you pass from this world, he will ultimately end
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: up in heaven. So Jesus is not talking about those
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: He's talking about those who are hypocrites who claim to
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: be his followers, but who aren't really his followers. Those
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: are the ones that are in trouble, the ones who
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: profess certain things and claim to be holy and claim
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: to be righteous and so and Jesus says in the end,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I never knew you. Sorry, could you?
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Could you give me an example of that?
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Is there anybody in in in history that that you
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: think that is?
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I mean who?
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: I guess what I'm asking is who claims to be
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: a follower of Jesus but doesn't really follow and or
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: believe And and so this is going to sound bad,
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: and I don't know the right way to put it,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: but because I do believe in Jesus, and I do
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: think about him all the time, and I think about
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: you know that old saying, what would Jesus do? I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: think about. I have that in my head all the
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: time now and then when I hear something like that,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: for whatever reason, I always have my head shit is it?
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Is that?
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Am I really okay?
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Am I? Do I really believe that? I really believe?
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: This is what happened to my wife after she came
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: to faith. She kept wondering, am I really okay with God?
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Am I really saved? I really going to heaven? And
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: so she kept praying repeatedly this prayer, God, I believe
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: you are who you claim to be. I believe your Lord,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: come into my life. Change my life, change my character,
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: change my values. I received this free gift. She kept
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: praying these prayers, and her mentor, who led her to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: the Lord, came up to her one day and said,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: are you calling God a liar? No, I'm not calling
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: a liar. Well, the Bible says, but as many as
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: received him to them, he gave the right to become
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: children of God, even to those who believe in his name.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: If you believe and you've received, then you have become
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: a child of God according to scripture, and you don't
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: need to worry about and you always can go back
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: to that. I can go back to November the eighth
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty one, three o'clock in the afternoon, after
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: a two year investigation where I try to my journalism
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: training and legal training to disprove Christianity, and I came
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: to conclusion, no, it's true. Jesus not only claimed to
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: be the son of God, he proved it by returning
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: from the dead. And the historical documentation is overwhelming. And
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: that's when I go back to that moment where I
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: realize I'm in deep weeds because I am a sinner
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: of sinners. I live in a moral, narcissistic, obscene life,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: and I need God. I confess that, and I admit that,
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: and I turn from that, and I want to receive
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: You as my forgiver and as my leader. I want
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: to receive his free gift of forgiveness and eternal life.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I need to go back to that and say,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: did I do that at three o'clock in the afternoon
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: November the eighth of nineteen eighty one, yep, I did.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I'm okay. Has God changed my life since then? Absolutely? So,
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: I have evidence of it. If there's no evidence of
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: a life change, then you really have to ask, has
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: God really taken root in my life? Have I really
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: received him as my forgiver but also my lord? In
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: other words, someone who leads my life, is he really
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: leading my life? So I can look back and say,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: God's changed my character, my values, my worldview, my philosophy,
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: my attitude, my parenting, my marriage, and all these things
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: over time. Over time, God's changed for the good. So
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I have evidence that I can look at and say, no,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: I can see God how in your because the Bible
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: says the Second Corinthians. And when a person receives this
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: free gift of God's forgiveness and grace, they become a
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: new creature. The old is gone. The newest come. Doesn't
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: mean we become perfect. We're still struggling in a world
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: of sin to you know, to try to follow Jesus
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: as best we can. We still make mistakes, we still
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: take one step forward and two steps back. Sometimes that's okay.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: But the general orientation of our life ought to be different.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: It ought to be it ought to be much more
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: pointed towards word God as being the leader of my life.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: And so when you when you look at that kind
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: of evidence, when you look at that moment, I can
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: go back to and say yep, that's the moment. Then
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: it dispels those fears that, oh, somehow this didn't take well, somehow,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I'm okay.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: You know, and I think that.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Well, I don't think I know because I was one
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: of them. How can a I think a lot of
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: people always people that are on the fence, people that
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: don't believe. I think they made a big question was
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: for me is is how does how does a good
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: person who lives a honest uh life filled with integrity
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: and and and love and you know, all the good virtues,
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: what if they didn't have the opportunity to to learn
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: about Jesus and and to believe them? And And when
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: I interviewed our mutual friend John Burke, I didn't even
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: ask him that question, but it in interviewing him, I
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: think I learned the answer. And it seems like everybody
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: gets the opportunity to to believe. And he I remember
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: he was talking about hellish nds, hellish near death experiences
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: where you actually go to.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: Howard Storm's case, famous case.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, and it's it's and so even that guy who
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: didn't believe, if this is the correct person who didn't
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: believe any of it. Christ showed up and when he
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: was when he was dying, and and and he was
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: in hell, and he did have the opportunity to to say.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: That I believe.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here's my hesitation on that, because I know Howard's
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: story and you're he was an atheist. He died physically
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: is clinically dead, and demons were mauling him. He said,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: I was like roadkill, and he called out to God
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: save me, and this orb of light came and literally
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: saved him. It was so profound. Then he eventually recovered
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: from his clinical death, and he not only renounced his atheism,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: he became a pastor. He's a pastor today. That's how
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: profound that was to him. But here's the problem. He
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: wasn't clinically he wasn't dead like he's never returning. He
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: was clinically dead, but he was going to come back.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: And so I have a little hesitation in terms of
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: saying that that's a universal experience. Here's what I would say,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: based on what I understand best in scripture, especially the
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Old Testament in Jeremiah, the New Testament in Hebrews. First
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: of all, none of us lives good lives, we're all sinners.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: We've all screwed up. We've all made mistake, not just
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: made mistakes, we've probably I could say this, I think
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: we've all done things. We knew they were wrong before
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: we did them, and we did them anyway. I have,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: you have, right, we all have. We've sinned, and so yes,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: we do good things too, but that doesn't negate the sin.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, if you rob a bank and then you
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: live a perfect life, do you think the government would
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: come up to you and say, yeah, we're gonna forget
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: about that bank robbery. We got all this evidence you commit. No,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: you're guilty of that bank. Right, you need to pay
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: the penalty for robbing that bank. Even though you did
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: all these good things, it doesn't wipe out the bad
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: things that you've done. And so so none of us
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: is good. We all, none of us deserves to go
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: to heaven. We were all sinners. That's number one. Number two,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I would say that anyone anywhere, in any culture, at
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: any time who calls out to the One True God
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: and says God, help me save me, like Howard did
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: when he had a near death experience, said God help me,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I can't save myself. I need help. I need you
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: to come to my rescue. I think anybody in any
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: culture who praise a prayer like that to the One
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: True God, God will provide a way for them to
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: find redemption. And I'll give you an example. I knew
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: a guy later in his life. He grew up in India,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: and in the province in India where he lived, it
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: was illegal to share the Christian message. He was mentored
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: in the Hindu faith by some gurus. He got to
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: be about seventeen eighteen years old, and he said, wait
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: a minute, I look at these Hindu scriptures. They all
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: contradict each other. They can't all be true. They contradict.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: He said, God, I'm at a loss. If you're there,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: I want to know you. I want to meet you.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: I want to experience you. God, if you're there, show me.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: And in a remarkable set of circumstances, God brought a
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: couple of missionaries into his life, shared them message of
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Jesus with him. He came to faith in Jesus. He
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: later immigrated to the United States and he became a
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: member of the church where I was a pastor at
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: in Chicago. So there's an example of how God intervened
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: in the life of this guy. He probably didn't even
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: know the name of Jesus. He just knew I'm a mess,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I need help, I need rescuing and God. God's not
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: playing hide and seek from us. He's not hiding from us.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: The other phenomenon that's going on that I write about
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: in my new book is that in the Middle East,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: in many Middle Eastern countries, it's illegal to share the
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Christian message. And so what is God doing. He's bringing
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: dreams about Jesus to these people. This is a phenomenon
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: that is sweeping the Middle East. People are not going
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: to sleep as a Muslim meeting Jesus in a dream
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: becoming Christians. That's not how it happens, because that could
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: be just a subjective experience. No, there is carob to
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: these dreams. So I'll give you an example. So, a
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: woman named Nor, mother of eight Muslim lives in Cairo.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: One night she goes she has a Jesus dream. It's
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: the most profound, vivid dream, unlike any other she's ever had.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: And Jesus appears to her and she feels the love
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: and the grace and the forgiveness and the kindness of
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: Jesus just radiating from him, and she's overwhelmed. But he's
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: never felt anything like it. And they're walking along a
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: lake and she says, Jesus, tell me more about you.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: And he says, my friend will tell you. And she said,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: who's your friend? And he gestures to another person. She
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: hadn't even noticed because she was so mesmerized by Jesus.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: A guy was walking with them along the lakeside said
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: my friend will tell you. She wakes up from the dream.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: The next day, she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: She's walking into this crowded market she says, the man
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: from her dream. She goes up to him. You you
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: were in my dream. He said who? He said, what
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: what were you talking about? Same face, same close, same glass.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: You were the man in my dreams. And he said,
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: did you have a dream about Jesus. She said yes.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: He was a missionary undercover in Cairo. He wasn't going
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: to go to the crowded marketplace on that Friday afternoon
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: because it's chaotic, but he felt God had a mission
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: for him, and he went. That day. He met that
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: woman and he took her aside and opened the Bible
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: and shared the message of Jesus to her. So that's
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: external confirmation that it's not just something going on in
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: her head. But this was a special dream that points
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: to something outside that dream. See what I say mean
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: in terms of corroboration. That's how these are happening. And
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you Sean, these are so common in the
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Middle East today that sometimes you see an ad in
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: the Cairo newspaper and it says, call this number and
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: we'll tell you about the man in white that you
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: met in your dream last night.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Are you serious, ye? How are you finding this stuff out?
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Well? Tom Doyle, who was an expert on the Middle
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: East and travels all over the Middle East, I interviewed
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: him from my new book coming Out, Seeing the Supernatural,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: and he describes this whole city. He's ad elite. I
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: can pick up the phone right now and call Saudi Arabia,
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: called Jordan and gave you five more stories from just
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: this past week. This is happening all over the Middle East. Well,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: that tells me something about God. It tells me something.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: He's seeking us first, that he's not playing hide and
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: seek from us, but that he's reaching out to us
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and It's interesting when people say, well, what about the
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: guy who lives on an island who never hears the
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: name of Jesus. That always comes from someone who has
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: heard the name of Jesus, you know, And my question
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: to them is have you responded? Have you respond to
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: what you know about Jesus and received him as your
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: forgiver and your leader, Because that's not an issue for you,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: but it is an issue for some people. And I
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: believe that anyone who calls out the One True God
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: say God, help me save me. I realize I've messed
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: up things. I want to know you. Are you there,
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: tell me show me. I believe God will find a way,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: through a dream, through a missionary, whatever to make that happen.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: When you say, when you say this gentleman took this
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: woman and gave her the message of Jesus in one day, Yeah,
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: what what is the what is that message?
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. You know. The Bible is
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: almost eight hundred thousand words, and you know, if you
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: try to read the Bible, it can mess your mind up.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I mean it's difficult.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of messages.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of messages in the Bible. There's a
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: lot there, and to really understand it takes a lot
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: of study and so forth. But I can summarize the
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: central message that God wants us to know from the
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Bible in one verse twenty one words and the verses
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Romans six twenty three, which says simply, for the wages
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: of sin is death, but the free gift of God
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. So the
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: wages of sin is death. What we've earned, what we
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: deserve because we've ignored God, we've blasphemed against him, we've
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: violated his commands, we've turned our back on him. What
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: we the wage, what we've earned because of that is death,
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: which means eternal separation from God will pay for our
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: own sin, separate from God forever. But it says there's
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: another part to the story. The free gift of God
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: is eternal life through Christ Jesus your Lord. In other words,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: it is you can't earn it because if you try
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: to earn a gift, it's not a gift anymore. It's
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: a wage. No, it's not a wage, it's a gift.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: The free gift of God is eternal. How do you
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: receive a gift. You know, this is Christmas. You know,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: there's a bunch of gifts probably under Christmas trees all
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: over the world. They don't become yours until you receive them.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: And so when we receive that gift, we become a
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: child of God forever. You know, there's a lot of
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: different religions in the world. They all contradict each other,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: but Christianity is different from I think there's forty two
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: hundred religions in the world something like that. Yeah, I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: think that's right. Every other faith system I've ever explored,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: and I've looked at thousands, every other one is spelled
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: d oh. You got to do something to try to
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: earn your way to God. Use a tibit in prayer, wheel,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: go on a pilgrimage to Mecca, give alms to the poor,
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: do good deeds, do do, do something, and maybe someday
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe not, but maybe you'll do enough to earn
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: your way to Heaven. That's how every other religion functions.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Christianity is not spelled d oh, it's spelled d o.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: N It's done. Jesus said in the Cross, it's finished,
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: it's done. He paid the penalty we deserved for the
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: sins that we've committed. In other words, we don't have
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: to pay the penalty. He paid it on the cross
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: on our behalf and all we have to do. And
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: he offers forgiveness as a free gift. We just need
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: to receive it in repentance and face. I'm sorry for
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: how I to live. I don't want to be separated
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: from God. I want to know you personally. How do
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: I do that? I receive this free gift of your
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Grace's what grace is by definition is free. And so
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: that's the difference between every other religion and Christianity, because
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: they all contradict each other. Few I have a good
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: friend who's a Muslim, and he comes over to my
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: house and we barbecue and we're buddies. And so I've
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: read the Koran, and you know, in the Koran is
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Sir four, verse one fifty six, it says Jesus didn't
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: die in the cross and therefore he wasn't resurrected. The
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Koran also says that God does not a son. The
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Koran also says that no one can bear the sins
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: of another. Specifically, the Koran says that okay, those are
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: three things I need to believe to be a Christian. Now,
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: maybe the Koran is right, maybe that's maybe that's correct,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: or maybe Christianity's correct. But they can't both be correct.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: They conflict. They can't both be correct. And so I
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: look at the evidence that Jesus did die on the
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: cross and that he was resurrected from the dead, the
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: historical data that convinced me that he not only claimed
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: to be the son of God, he backed it up
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: by returning from the dead. And I look at that
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: and I go because of that, I can trust that
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: Jesus is who he claimed to be. So I say,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: his message is the one that I want to respond to.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: His message of grace and hope and redemption, this gift
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: of God that he wants to give all of us.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Was why was Jesus sent here? I think a couple
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: of reasons in what let me? Yeah, let's start with this.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: What is Jesus or who is Jesus?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: God has existed from eternity past as the Godhead, God,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: the Father, God, the Son God, the Holy Spirit. They
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: have always existed in a perfect love relationship. And so
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: God when he decided to create humankind, because they're in
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: this love relationship. He wanted us to experience love, and
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: so he gave us free will. What have we done
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: with the free will? We've turned our back on God.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: We've denied him. We look at the world. It's a mess.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: We've used our free will and given God the middle finger, basically,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: and so God loves it. He made us in his image.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: We are made as which means not physically, but our
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: souls are fashioned in the image of God. And he
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: loves us. And so he said, I'm going to send
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Jesus into the world to be born of a virgin,
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: fully god still and fully man. And his ultimate purpose
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: is Easter. His ultimate purpose is to die, to die,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Why to die? As our substitute who says, I'm going
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: to pay the penalty you deserved because I love you,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I'll pay the penalty you don't have to if you'll
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: receive this gift of forgiveness as a free gift of grace.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. There's a story. I don't
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: think it's a true store. It's more of a parable
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: of a judge. And he's an honest judge. He's a
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: righteous judge. And one day a woman is brought in
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: front of him, on a charge of shoplifting, and it's
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: his own daughter. And he says, what is the evidence
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: against my daughter? And they present the evidence as she's
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: clearly guilty, clearly guilty. Well, now what does he do.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: He loves his daughter, it's his only daughter. He loves
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: his daughter. But he's a righteous judge. He can't just
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: wink and say, ah, yeah, never mind, I forgive you,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: forget the whole thing. He can't do that because if
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: he did that, he would not be a righteous judge.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: He would not be an honest judge. So what does
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: he do. He looks out at his daughter, says, I
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: find you guilty. I'm sorry, but you're guilty, and I
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: have to say that. I have to declare it. You
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: are guilty, and I sentence you to jail for sixty
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: days and a fine or a fine of ten thousand dollars. Well,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: he knows she doesn't have ten thousand dollars. She's gonna
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: have to be separated from him in jail for sixty days.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: But what else could he do. He's an honest judge.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: You know what he does. He takes off his robe
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: and he walks down in front of the bench and
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: he opens his checkbook and he writes out a check
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: for ten thousand dollars and he rips it off and
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: he says, I want to give this to you so
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you can pay the penalty that you deserve, but I'm
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: going to pay it for you. Now she has a choice.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: She could turn it down, say no, no, no, I'd rather
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: go to jail. I don't think she'd do that. I
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: think she say thank you, Father for loving me so
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: much that you paid the penalty I deserve because I'm guilty.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: And she receives that check and she said free. That
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: is a analogy for what goes on with Jesus. Why
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Jesus came into the world to die in our place
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: as our substitute, so that our sins could be wiped out,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: because only perfect people can go to heaven, and so
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: we have to be forgiven, completely forgiven, and we have
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: to be it clothed in the righteousness of God, which
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: also happens when we receive Him as a forgiver and leader,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: and then the doors of heaven are flung open for us.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: But that was the only way. Because God is a
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: righteous judge, he is holy. He can't just wink and
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: say yeah, yeah, I forget. I know, I know you've
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: done all these evil things in your life, but yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: let's just forget about it. No, they have to be
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: paid for. If I lend you my car and you're
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: gone for a day and you come back, it's got
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: a big scratch down it. I could say, oh, I
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: just forgive you, but then I got to pay for
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: the scratch. I got to pay to every repaired or
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: if I don't, when I sell the car, I'm going
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: to take a loss for the amount equivalent to fixing
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: that scratch. I'm going to have to pay the penalty
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: in one way or the other. I can't just wink
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: and say forget it. So God can't just wink and
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: say I'm going to ignore the fact that you're sinners. No, no, no,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: because that would be a lie, and he can't lie.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: So do you see? So the purpose of Christmas ultimately
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: is Easter. Now along the way, God showed us how
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: to live life, you know, I mean, I mean he
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: talked about how we should care for others, how we
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: should prioritize people who are hurting, how we should reach
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: out in love to people who are who are in
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: need of our love, and our and our kindness, and
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: so far he showed us how to live the perfect life.
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: But you know, if he only did that, none of
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: us would get to heaven. He had to Easter had
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: to happen, He had to go. He had to not
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: only die on that cross, but then be resurrected from
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: the dead, so that when we die, we can be
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: resurrected as well.
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: So I got a few questions. One is I want
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: to rattle the offs just so I remember. One is
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: a difference between father son Holy Spirit.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: Another one is it's and we'll come back to that.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: But you know, another one is and I would like
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: to address this right now.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Is it is it? Who is Jesus or who was Jesus?
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Who is Jesus? Who is still alive? He is still Yeah,
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: he is still with us, so to speak. I talked
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: to him this morning. We talked to him at breakfast
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: when we prayed. So he is still who he is now.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: He was united with a human form at the time
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: of his incarnation and born on Christmas of a virgin
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: and when the Holy Spirit overcame Mary. It says therefore
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: the child was born holy, so that that process of
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit leading to the birth of Jesus made
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: it possible for him to be without sin. He was
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: made holy. Somehow we don't understand the entire process. The
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: incarnation is mind boggling. It's the timeless becoming time bound.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: It's the eternal becoming time bound. It's the immaterial becoming material.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's beyond our ability to understand. But clearly
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: Scripture says because of the way the incarnation took place,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: it means that Jesus was holy. Jesus was without sin.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: So if if God is Jesus's father, yeah, then who
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: is Joseph.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Joseph would be the caretaker. He would be an earthly
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: quote unquote father, just like if you adopted a son.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: You're not the biological father, but you're the father. You're
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: an adopted father. Yeah, be more of that.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, And I have another question. I mean, I'm
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: learning there are a lot of rules in.
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: How do I say this? And I don't want to
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: say Christianity. I want to say there are rules that
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: the other realm has to abide by. It seems like
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: there are rules that that that good and evil need
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: to abide by. The demons, demons and angels and God
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: and Jesus and good and evil. The farther I dig
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: into this stuff, it seems like there are a lot
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: of a lot of rules that I don't understand.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Well, there's certainly God restrains evil.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: And if in some degree, if there are specific why
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: are there rules, Well, I wouldn't posture this rules. I
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: would pasture more as God rules. Over all, it seems
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: like there's some kind of some kind of law.
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, I see where you're going. Yeah, there is a
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: moral law. Like it comes like this morning.
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: I'd told you, and I don't know the laws, but
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: you know, I told you, I've interviewed an exorcist. I've
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: dug into these things a little bit. A lot of
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: it I don't understand. Even this morning, I had mentioned
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: right before we had breakfast, we're building that new studio.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: I went out there. They're pouring the foundation in the footers,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: and me and and one of the guys that has
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: worked there the longest one out and and we we
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: we we wrapped bibles up so that they were protected,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: and then we we we put them in each corner
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: of the foundation. Because maybe it's superstition.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's because I think it's a great gesture just
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: to say we want our foundation to be God.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: But but what I'm getting at is, you know, I
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: I've heard of priests doing that. I've heard of I've
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: heard of that it may keep demons out, and hey,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: if there's any chance of that, then I'm.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Going to take advantage of it. And I I do.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's symbolic and I do think in and
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: it seems there's some sort of law that all of these.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: For lack of a better term, entities need to follow.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean when you told me about bearing those
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Bibles in the Foundation, I just thought that's a great
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: symbol of the fact that we want our organization as
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: best we can. Yeah, we're gonna make mistakes, we're going
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: to mess things up from time to time, but we
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: want ultimately to for God to be honored by what
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: we do. That's one thing I don't know, and I
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: would you know, we can can't get into realm of
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: superstition at some point, and say, does that mean that
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: demons cannot somehow penetrate that because the Foundation, I think
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: that's more of a superstition than it would be. Now.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: It could be that if you are declaring to the
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: world that is our hope, is our intention, is our
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: desire that our organization be honoring to God. That's going
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: to be deterrent to demonic activity.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: Let me let me bring up another example.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: I had mentioned, Uh, my friend Eddie Penny at lunch
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: and I and uh and and he was a Christmas episode.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: And I don't even know if we he's been somewhat
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: of a mentor to me, not somewhat.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: He has been a mentor to me.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: And and and in my journey to faith. And and
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know if he said this on the show
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: or if this was a phone call.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: I can't remember.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you know, the lines get blurred her But and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: and he's not the only one that I've heard say this,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: but he has.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: He has talked about demons in his house. We spoke
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: about exorcisms, you know.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: And and and people that are levitating and and whatnot.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: And you know, Eddie, Eddie, I remember him.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: People say, in the name of Jesus Christ, leave my house,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: and they have to leave your house. So that would
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: be that would be one of the the laws.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: And that goes back to the Bible, that goes back
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: to Jesus casting out and one of the things that
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Jesus is best known for are not only miracles, but exorcisms,
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: casting out demons. I think half of jesus activity in
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: the Gospel of Mark involves casting out demons and so forth.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: So how did he do that?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: He?
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: You know, it was. It is something that he instructed
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: his followers to do, to challenge and confront the demons
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: in the name of Jesus to depart. So that comes
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: from the Bible. So I mean, do I believe that
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: demon possession exists. Yes, And in my book coming out
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: in March, I mean ideal, I have a whole chapter
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: on that. Yes, I believe it can happen. I don't
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: believe it happens to Christians because we are by definition
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: in dwell by the Holy Spirit, so we can't be
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: dwelled by a demon at the same time, but Satan
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: can hector us, he can harass us, and that that's
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: why we want to as a Bible talks about put
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: on the full armor of God to protect ourselves from
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: that through understanding and reading the scriptures, through prayer and
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: so forth. So yeah, that's a good example of a
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: want I call it a rule. But it's a it's
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: a an action we can take to cast out the demonic,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: as Jesus did in his ministry. So that would be
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: a good example. But I think sometimes, you know, it's
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: hard to to draw a line between what can be
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: a superstitious belief versus what's a biblical belief, And so
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: I can I can look at that and say, is
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: casting out a demon in the name of Jesus? Is
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: that a rule that God approves of? Yeah, because we
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: have examples in scripture of Jesus casting out demons and
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: we want to do that in his name. But if
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: you tell me that, oh, if you we are a
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: crucifix around your neck, that it will ward off the demonic,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: I don't see that in scripture. So I always go
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: back to can I is it in the Bible? Can
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: I trust it? That gives me a plumb line. It
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: gives me something that I can I can speculate about
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: other stuff, you know, but that's just me speculating. And
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: what does that really matter? I think the Bible has
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: more weight than that.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: And what version of the Bible do you read?
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: I read several. I think it's healthy to read several
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: sometimes to get a different little bit translation difference. I
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: like the NIV, that's my publisher also publishes that version.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: It's a great version. The ESV is a good version.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: The New King James version is a good or the
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: new what's it called, the uh n l T the
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: New Living Translation. That's a really good translation. So what
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: people have to understand, though, is there there's a difference
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: between the Bible translation and a pair of So a
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: translation goes back to the original as best we have them,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: the existing documents in the Greek and in the Hebrew,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: and translates those into modern language that we can understand.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: That's a translation. There are also things like I think
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: called The Message, which is a Bible but it's a paraphrase.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: It's a well educated Christian scholar who kind of puts
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: it in vernacular that maybe we can understand better, and
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: maybe he takes a little liberty with it, and that's
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: okay because it's consistent with what the Bible says. So
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: there's a difference there, and I encourage people to use
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: a translation because that is staying true to what was
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: originally written as best we can determine it. By the way,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: talking about I want to give you a little anecdote
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: because we talked at breakfast about numbers and how numbers
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: can be really interesting sometimes, and you know, it's very
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: commonly said that the number of Satan is sixty sixty six.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: A friend of mine is named doctor Daniel B. Wallace.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: He's a professor at Dallas Seminary. He's probably the world's
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: leading expert on the manuscripts of the New Testament, and
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: he his ministry is to travel the world and to
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: go to museums and seminaries and places that have ancient
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: manuscripts and to take high quality photographs of them for
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: scholars so we can preserve them forever. And I was
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: talking to him once and I said, he said, yeah,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: I discover something interesting. I said, what he said. I
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: took the oldest manuscript we've got of the Book of Revelation,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: and I examined it under a microscope, and the number
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: of Satan is not six sixty six, it's six' one.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: SIX i, said, Really AND i was stuck in my.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: MIND i called him back about a year. LATER i,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: said DID i understand you right when you said you
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: examined under microscope and the real number six one? Six he, said,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah SO i mean that's that's why it's important that
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: we go back to the sources as best we. Can you,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: know the original documents are all, lost they're all reduced
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: to dust as they were made of virus and and so,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: forth scrolls and and but we have reliable documents because
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: handwritten copies were. Made we have thousands of copies that
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: we can compare and contrast and we can come to
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: a conclusion about what the original. Said and that's the
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: translations we.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: Have so are all the different versions different translations or
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: is this different or is there more than.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: That different versions of what The bible of that you
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: see in a store for. Instance, yeah they're all, translations
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: but a translation committee may choose a certain, word say
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: The greek says, this we're going to translate it this,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: way and another group might get together of scholars and, say,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: yeah that's, good but we think it's a little, sharper
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: a little better to translate it this, way and so
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: they're very careful about. That there's A bible called the N. E. T.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: BIBLE i think it's The New English. Translation DANIEL. B,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: wallace WHO i, mentioned is the editor of that that has,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: thousands literally thousands of footnotes that explain why they translate
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: The greek and The hebrew and the way they did.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: So it, says you, know we had a choice. Here
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: we could have used this word In english or we
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: could use this. One this is why we chose this.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: One but which wants you to, know you, know we
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: could have chosen this other. One but these are the reasons.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: Why so it's really a handy bible to. Have i've got.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: ONE i refer to it all the.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 3: TIME i want to go back to my other question,
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: too about The Father son The Holy.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: Spirit, yeah what what is what is the? Difference, uh.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: There's a relational component to. It in other, Words god
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: The father has existed from eternity, Past god The son
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: has existed for maternity. Past well that really we first we're.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Relational how how they relate to each. Other god The
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: Holy spirit has existed from eternity, past and so in
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: in in some ways they have some different. Functions in
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: the sense that it Was jesus that came and left
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: behind the perks of, heaven was born among us On,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: christmas lived the perfect, life went to the cross to
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: pay the penalty for our. Sin that is a role
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: that he fulfilled as part of The, godhead with the
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: permission Of uh and the and the leading of The
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: father and The Holy. Spirit so there there there's One,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: god but three. Persons and how DO i know that
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: because if you read scripture you can see it teaches four.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: Things The father Is, god The son Is, god The
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: Holy spirit Is, god and there is One. God those
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: four teachings are clear in. Scripture and so how that
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: plays out is kind of a mind. Bender but we
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: can know that they are All. God they Are. God
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: there is One god and that Is god in three.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: Persons it's ben described to. Me it's like, water, ice. Vapor,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: yeah there's a problem with. That there's a heresy called.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: Modalism modalism says that there's One, god but he, changes
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: like he's The father, now but then he changes like
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: water changes to steam when it's, heated and now he
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: becomes The sun and then changes again because water can
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: become ice and becomes A Holy. Spirit that's a. Heresy
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: that's not how it. Works he is there are three
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: distinct persons in The godhead who Are. God so it's
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: not like they change roles or go from water to
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: ice to. STEAM a lot of people use that illustration
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: and it's you just have to be careful because that
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: can lead to a heretical belief That god changes from
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: The father to The son to The Holy spirit depending
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: on the. Circumstances that's just not What.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: So did you say that they each have different purposes.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Or, well they can each have different. Roles what would
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: those roles. Be, well the role of The Holy, spirit for,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: instance in my life is to indwell, me to live in,
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: me to guide, me to be sort of an internal,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: conscience to help me incrementally over, time to become more Like,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: jesus to change my, values to change my. Character so
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: one of the roles of The Holy spirit in our
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: life is to minister to us as we grow in
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: our relationship With. God that's one of the roles that he.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Performs but there are other roles, Too like it was
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: through him through The Holy spirit That jesus was conceived
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: in the womb Of, mary And jesus has the role
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: of being the savior of the. World but they all
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: have that role in the sense The Holy spirit was.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: Involved when you look In, genesis even in Early hebrew,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: writings you can see The spirit and and you can
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: see the different elements Of. God the different elements Of
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: god's wrong. Term you can see the three persons of
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: The trinity playing a role in. Creation jesus played a
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: role in, Creation The father played a role in. Creation
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: The Holy spirit played a role in. Creation so they're
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 2: working together as one godhead to accomplish all the creation
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: that we.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Have how Did jesus play a role in?
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: Creation there's a there's a scripture in The New testament
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: says nothing that was created was created Without. Jesus so
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: he played a role from eternity past in the creation
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: of the.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: World, wow, yeah pretty while fascinating. Stuff, Yeah, lee let's
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: take a let's take a quick. Break we can come.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: BACK i want TO i want to get into WHAT
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: uh sent you on your journey sure to Disprove god
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: and what you? Found, okay thank. You, well it's that
• 1:14:10
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• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: lee we're back from the. Break sorry about the many interrogation,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: there but just. Curious, yeah a lot more questions are
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: going to come, up BUT i want to DO i
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: want to get into a little bit about what sent
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: you on the journey to disprove The?
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Bible? Yeah Or?
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: God, WELL i was legal leeditor of The Chicago tribune
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: and got married, young and it was an. Atheist my
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: wife was an. Agnostic she didn't know what to. Believe
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: and she came up to me one day and gave
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: me the worst news any atheist husband could. Get she,
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: Said i've Just i've become A. CHRISTIAN i, thought oh,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: great you know now she's going to start judging. Me
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: now she's going to try to get me not to
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: hang out with my. Friends now she's gonna make the
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: kids think that there's something wrong with me BECAUSE i
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: don't believe In. GOD i THOUGHT i just saw trouble
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: on the, horizon and trouble came because all of a,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: sudden she becomes a Devout christian And i'm an adam and.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Atheist well we're just butting, heads and we'd never done.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: That we, met we were, fourteen we got married at
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: nineteen and. Twenty you, know we're best, friends and yet
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: for the first time in our, marriage we're at. Loggerheads you,
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: know she wants to go to. Church, well AM i
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: going to stay home with the kids while you go to?
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: CHURCH i got other things to. Do SHE i remember
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: when she came to, me she, Said i'd like to
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: give some money to the. CHURCH i, SAID i got
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: a good. Idea why don't you take the money and
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: flush it down the toilet because that'll have the same.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 2: Effect so that was what she was up. AGAINST i,
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: mean AND i, THOUGHT i got to get my marriage back. Together,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: here how DO i do? That, well wait a, minute
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: there's an easy. Way ALL i have to do is Disprove.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: Christianity you, KNOW i went To Yale Law. SCHOOL i
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: understand what evidence. IS i take me a long, weekend
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: maybe a three day, weekend And i'm SURE i can
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: poke enough holes In christianity that it would fall.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: Apart what brought your wife to?
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 2: Faith it's. Interesting the Door we moved into a condo
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: in Suburban chicago and the doorbell rang and it was a.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: Neighbor it was a. Woman she was a nurse and
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: her name Was, linda and she had a child on
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: her hip who was six months. Old, well we had
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: a nine month old, daughter and So linda introduces, herself
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: brought a plate of cookies and, said, hey you, know
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: let's get together. Sometime so they became best. Friends, Well
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: linda was A, christian a Strong, christian and they would
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: have long conversations About. God And leslie wasn't hostile LIKE i.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: Was she she just had questions like anybody, would And
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: linda had, answers and she went to church with. Her
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: she checked it, out and then she brought me that
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: news that she had become A. Christian and that just enraged.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: You oh my, GOSH i just saw this is this
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: is the last THING i needed, life BECAUSE i just
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: had this caricature Of christians who are going to be
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: judgmental and going to look down their nose at. Me
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: and and by the, WAY i THOUGHT i was a
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: man in her. Life, now who's This jesus?
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: Character, well you weren't.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 3: Wrong. Yeah do you see a lot of those things
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: that you just. DESCRIBED i know, today And i'd love
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: to chat about that.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: LATER i know there is a lot of, that and
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: that's WHAT i was recoiling, against and SO i THOUGHT
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: i could disprove. IT I i ended up spending a
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: year and nine months taking my journalism, training my legal,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: training and probing the historical data concerning the resurrection Of,
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: jesus mainly because even as an, ATHEIST i understood. Everything
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: everything everything depends on Whether jesus returned from the dead or,
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: not because Clearly jesus may transcendent and messianic and divine
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: claims about. Himself he claimed he was the son Of.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: God at one, point he gets up before a group
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: of people and he, SAYS i and The father are.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: One and the word In greek there for one is
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: not masculineus, neuter which Means jesus was not SAYING i
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: and The father are the same. Person he was, SAYING
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: i and The father are the same, thing were one in,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: nature we're one in. Essence and the audience got. It they, said,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: oh you're a man and you're claiming to Be. God
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: so they were going to kill him for claiming to Be. God,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: well he claimed to Be, God but so WHAT i
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: could claim to Be? God, you, well maybe not. You
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: anybody could claim that They're. God but If jesus claimed
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: to Be god died and then three days later wrote
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: from the, dead that's pretty good evidence he's telling the.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: Truth so even as an, ATHEIST i recognize this is the,
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: ballgame and in, FACT i just disprove. It i'd be home.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: FREE i could rescue her from this cult and go
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: on with our life as it.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: Was where do you start to disprove?
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: Something it's so, funny, yes because this is back in you,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: know nineteen eighty or, so when you know you're at
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: the library with microfiche and microfilm and you're doing inner
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 2: library loans to take four months to get an ancient
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: book out of the. Library you're going to museums to
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: look at manuscripts, here you, know but you, KNOW i
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: was trained to. INVESTIGATE i was an investigative reporter for
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: The Chicago. TRIBUNE i did major. INVESTIGATIONS i did a
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: lot of the original reporting on The Fort pinto, case
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: which is before your, time but it was a big
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: deal back, then and SO i knew to pick up
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: the phone and say call a scholar and Say i'm
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: least trouble from The Chicago. Tribune, no he probably Thought
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: i'm working on an article and, say, HEY i got
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: a question for. You what about? This? Oh, okay well, great.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Thanks SO i just began calling people researching history checking stuff.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: Out and nowadays it's a lot. Easier, nowadays it's very
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: easy to investigate this. Stuff one of the greatest, scholars
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: the greatest scholar in the, resurrection Doctor Gary, havermass is
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: writing a four or five volume. Set each each volume
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 2: is like eight hundred pages or so on The, resurrection
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: all refuting every counter argument out there and presenting the
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: case affirmatively and so. Forth and so there's plenty of
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: stuff out there now if someone wants to check it.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: OUT i ended up writing a book on and call
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: the case For. Christ WHEN i did the, BOOK i you,
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: KNOW i needed to retrace a lot of these interviews
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: THAT i did BECAUSE i wasn't planning to write a.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: BOOK i didn't keep. Notes this is for me my,
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: Curiosity like, YOU i had a bunch of. Questions but
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: then WHEN i wrote the, book of COURSE i had
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: to do in depth, interviews tape record and make sure
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: they're accurate and so, forth and so that book really
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: summarizes the. Evidence so.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: Earlier you had mentioned there was a PASSAGE i, think
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 3: did you, Say john one?
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Twelve, yeah that did it for? You is that? Really what?
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: Is what? Is john one?
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Twelve? Yeah john one twelve says it's not enough just
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: to believe That jesus is the son Of. God The bible,
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: says demons believe That jesus Is, god and they shudder
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: because they know the implications of. It for, them it's
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: not enough just to believe. It we have to, receive
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: receive this free gift of, forgiveness of eternal, life this
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: free gift Of god's. Grace and when we do, That
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: john one twelve, says we become a child Of god. Forever,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: WELL i didn't, believe AND i. DIDN'T i, didn't you.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 2: KNOW i thought it WAS i thought it was fairy.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: TALES i thought it was make. BELIEVE i Thought christianity
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: was based on wishful, thinking mythology and the. Legend that's
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: WHAT i. Thought but AS i began to investigate the,
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: RESURRECTION i was stunned because WHEN i was a little,
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: KID i don't know if you had this when you
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: were a. Kid my parents For christmas gave me this punching.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: Clown it was weighted on the. Bottom it was about
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: three feet, tall and it was, inflated and it was
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: a clown and you would hit it like a punching,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: bag and because it was weighted on the, bottom it
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: would go down when you would hit, it but then
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: it would bounce back up and then you'd hit it.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: Again it was a toy THAT i got when it's a.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: Kid that's HOW i pictured. THIS i THOUGHT i had
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: a knockdown. PUNCH i THOUGHT i could Disprove. Christianity So
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: i'd hit it with an objection and it would bounce.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: Back there's an answer to, that Dog, garnet what about this?
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Bang i'd hit it again and it would bounce. Back
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: there's an answer to. That SO i was stunned BECAUSE
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 2: i did not expect there to be any historical validity
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: to the fact That jesus died in across and rose
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: from the. Dead BUT i can summarize it really quickly
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: WHAT i found using four words to begin with the LETTER.
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: E that way people can, remember because remember It's. Christmas
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: the Reason jesus came Was, easter the. Resurrection how do
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: we know it's? True four words that begin with the LETTER. E.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: Execution jesus was dead after being. CRUCIFIED i thought maybe
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 2: he survived and the cool damp era of the tomb resuscitated.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: Him that's WHAT i. Thought, no we have no record
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: anywhere of anyone surviving a Full roman crucifixion. Anywhere not
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: only do we have multiple accounts in the documents of
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 2: The New testament that tell us That jesus was dead
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: after being, Crucified we've got five ancient sources outside The
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: bible that talk about him being. Dead what those, Sources,
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: oh Like Josephus. Tacitus these are early. Historians, Merabar, Serapian.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: Lucian even The Jewish talman admits That jesus was. Executed
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: So jesus was clearly. Dead in, fact get. This The
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: journal of The American Medical, association a, secular, scientific peer
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: reviewed medical journal carried an investigation into the death Of,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: jesus and this was their. Conclusion, quote, clearly the weight
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: of the historical and medical evidence indicates That jesus was
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 2: dead even before the wound to his side was. Inflicted
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: that's The journal of The American Medical. Association you could
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: go to an Atheist New testament scholar Like Gaar ludeman
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: and he will tell you the death Of jesus on
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: the cross by crucifixion is historically. Indisputable that's the atheist.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: Speaking so the First east for, Execution jesus was. Dead
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: the Second east stands for early reports that he rose
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: from the. Dead in other, words reports that didn't come
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: after decades of legendary. Development but go right back to
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: the cross. Itself in other, WORDS i used to think
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: as a. Skeptic, OKAY i got to give you the
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: Fact jesus was, dead get. It but the resurrection is a,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: legend AND i knew it took time for legend to
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: develop in the ancient. World you. Know the great Historian
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: An Sherwin white Of oxford, said the passage of two
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: generations of time is not even enough for legend to
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: grow up and wipe out a solid core of historical.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: Truth SO i knew it took a few generations for
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: legend to. Develop, well WHAT i learned is that we
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: have a report of the resurrection Of, jesus including named
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: eyewitnesses and groups of, eyewitnesses that says he died why
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: for our? Sins he was buried on the third, day
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: he rose from the, dead and these, eyewitnesses groups of
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: eyewitnesses and. Individuals this report has been dated back by
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: scholars to within months of his. Death within. Months, yeah,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: wow that is. That that's a. News you can see
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: this that It's it's in The, bible Verse corinthians, fifteen
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: starting in verse. Two that is a nugget that talks
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: about the resurrection Of. Jesus who wrote First, Corinthians. Paul
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: paul had been someone who didn't believe In. God he
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: was a. Pharisee he didn't believe In. Jesus he was Persecuting.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: Christians he's on the road To. Damascus. Boom he has
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: this encounter with the Risen. Christ he realized That jesus
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: Is god and he becomes the Apost So paul twenty
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: two years, later he writes this letter to the church
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: in corinth that's what we Call First corinthians in The,
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 2: bible and he includes this report about the. Resurrection where
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: did he get that? Report, well we know that it
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 2: was one to three years after the death Of jesus
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: that he had this experience with the Risen christ and
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: became the Apostle. Paul he immediately went Into damascus and
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: he met with some. Apostles many people believe that's when
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: he was given this report about the. Resurrection some people
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: believe it was a few years. LATER a couple years,
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: later he went To jerusalem and he met for fifteen
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: days with two eye witnesses to the resurrection who were
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: mentioned in that, Report peter And. James and The greek
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: word That paul uses to describe that meeting is this
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: is an investigative. Meeting they're checking each other. Out what
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: did you, See what do you? Know what do you
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: know for? Sure what do you? Experience some people believe
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: that's when he was given this report by two people
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: named in the, Report but either, way it means within
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 2: one to six years after the death Of, jesus this,
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: creed this report is already in, existence and therefore the
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: beliefs and make up this report go back even, earlier
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: virtually to the cross. Itself so there's no huge time
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: gap between the death Of jesus and the later development
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: of a legend that he rose from the. Dead we
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: got a. Newsflash and probably the greatest historian on the
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: first century is Doctor JAMES. D. G dunn of The United.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: Kingdom he analyzed this, report which comes in the form
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: of a creed of the earliest church with eyewitnesses to the.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: Resurrection he analyzed it historically and here was his. Conclusion he,
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: says we can be entirely confident that this report was
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: written originally within months of the death Of. Jesus within.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: Months that is a newsflash from ancient, history much too
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 2: quick to be a legend that developed over the. Generation
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 2: so we got an, execution he's. Dead we got this early,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: report and we got other early reports right, there first,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 2: generation same generation Of jesus And, Matthew Mark, luke and
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: Then john comes a little bit, later but ALSO i
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: would say in the first. Generation so we've got these
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: other reports, Too but this one THAT i meant.
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: The original report. To what's that is that the original?
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: Documentation, well he's reporting it in his letter to the
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: church In corinth and that's what we have today is.
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: But it is the original? Letter is it the original?
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 2: Letter, well the original letter's been turned to dust because
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: it was written in parchment or on scrolls and papyrus
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: and so. Forth but we have people who copied, it
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 2: and so we've got multiple. Copies so we got an,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: execution we got the early report thirty is. Empty. Two
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: and what's interesting about that is even the enemies Of
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: jesus admitted the two was. Empty how do we, know
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: because we know from his resources inside and outside The
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: bible that when the disciples began, saying, Oh jesus had been,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: resurrected what the enemies Of jesus said, was, oh, well
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: the disciples stole his. Body think about. That that's a cover.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: Story they're admitting the tomb is. Empty they're just saying
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: this is how it got. Empty they stole the. Body
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: so they're conceding implicitly that the tomb is. Empty it's
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 2: like if you're a student and the teacher comes. Up
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: if you're a, teacher you mean the government lied even
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: in the first, century can YOU i can't believe. That
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: but you, know if you're a teacher and a student
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: comes up to, you and, says the dog ate my.
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: Homework he's admitting he doesn't have his, homework but he's
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: trying to explain what happened to. It it's the same.
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: Thing so even the enemies Of jesus admitted the tomb was,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: empty the disciples didn't have the, motive the means of
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to steal the. Body nobody. Did and then
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: we look at the fourth e. Eyewitnesses most of what
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: we accept as being true from the ancient world is
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: based on maybe one source or two sources of. Information
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: when you get right down to. It we know things
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: about famous people through ancient history because maybe one source
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: or two. Sources for the conviction of the disciples that
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: they encountered the resurrect To, jesus we have no fewer
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: than nine ancient sources inside and outside The New testament
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: confirming and corroborating the conviction of the disciples that they
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: encountered the Risen. Christ that is an avalanche of historical. Data,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: SO i, MEAN i looked at this kind of stuff
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: for almost two. Years, Wow AND i mean there's much
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: more depth we could go, into but let's go into.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: It.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, well here's a fact That this was the
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: final fact that convinced. Me it was LIKE i was
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: putting together a jigsaw. PUZZLE i didn't know what the
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: picture was going to. Be AND i got this final
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: puzzle piece to go go, in and when it went,
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: IN i stepped back AND i SAW i was a
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: picture Of. Jesus what was that puzzle? Piece people would tell, me,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: oh The disciples really believe That jesus appeared to them,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: resurrected because they were willing to die for that. Conviction
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: AND i would, say that doesn't convince. Me so what
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: In World War Two kamikazi pilots crash their airplanes into.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: Boats why because they thought if they died that, way
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: they go to. Heaven, today why would a terrorist crash
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: into The World Trade center in an airplane and kill
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: himself and a whole bunch of people because he's sincerely
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: believed with his whole, heart if he dies that, way
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: he's going to. Paradise so don't tell me that the
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: disciples willingness to die means. Anything and then somebody. Clarified they,
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 2: say wait a, minute let's Use i'm fast forwarding because
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: this is Before september, eleventh but we use that as
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: an illustration The september eleventh terrorist. Attacks it's a huge
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: difference between the terror attacks Of september eleventh and The
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: disciples being willing to die for their. Convictions the difference
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: is those hijackers who hijacked the plane and crash them
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: in The World Trade center did not know for a
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: fact if they died that way they go to. Heaven
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: they believed it with all their. Heart they were taught,
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: it they believed, it they had faith in, it and
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: having faith in, it they were willing to die that.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: Way that tells me nothing about the truth of their. Convictions,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: now let's think about the disciples of all human beings
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: who've ever lived on the. Planet they were in a unique.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 2: Position they were, there they touched the Resurrected. Jesus they
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 2: talk with, them they ate with. Them of all people
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: who ever, lived they knew the truth about whether he
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: had returned from the dead and proved he's the son Of.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 2: God because they were, there they knew the. Truth knowing the,
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: truth they were willing to die for. It that's the.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: Difference AND i went a light bulb went on and, SAID,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: WHOA i get. It that gives me confidence in what
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: they were. Saying because they were, there they touched and
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: they ate when they talked to. Them they knew whether
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: this was a. Lie somebody said to Me, lee nobody
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 2: knowingly and willingly dies for what they know is a.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: Lie they knew if this is true or was a.
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: Lie they were willing to die for why because they
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 2: knew it was. True, wow that was the last puzzle.
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: Piece it Was november eighth of nineteen eighty. One it
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: was A sunday, afternoon about three in the. Afternoon AND i,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: THOUGHT i, believe based on the data of, history That
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: jesus claimed to Be god and backed it up by
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: returning from the. Dead but now what DO i just
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: go back to? Life DO i just because remember the
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: demons believe this. Too, shuddered and then my Wife leslie
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: pointed out a verse to, Me john one. Twelve but
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: as many as received him to, them he gave the
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: right to become children Of, god even to those who
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 2: believe in his. Name AND i looked at that AND i, Thought,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: OKAY i get the. Equation BELIEVE i do plus. Receive
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: oh that's WHAT i have to do to become a
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: child Of. God SO i got on my knees AND
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: i poured out a confession of a lifetime of immorality
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 2: that would absolutely curly your. Hair and at that MOMENT
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: i received complete total forgiveness Through Jesus, christ AND i
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: became a child Of. God AND i REMEMBER i went
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: out AND i Told, leslie and she burst into, tears
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: and she threw her arms around my neck and she,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: said almost gave up in you a thousand.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: Times she.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: Said WHEN i was a New, CHRISTIAN i told some
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: women about you at. CHURCH i, SAID i don't any
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: hope for my. Husband he is the hard, headed hard
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: hearted legal editor of The Chicago. Tribune he's never going
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: to bend his need To. Jesus and this one elderly
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: woman Named sylvia put her arm Around lesla's, shoulder pulled
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 2: her to the, side and, said, Oh, leslie no one
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: is beyond. Hope and she gave her a verse from
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 2: The Old Testament ezekiel thirty six twenty six that, says,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: MOREOVER i will give you a new, heart AND i
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: will put a new spirit within. YOU i will remove
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: from you your heart of stone and give you a
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: heart of. Flesh and so WHAT i never knew that
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 2: whole two years That i'm on this investigative. Journey WHAT
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: i never knew at the time is my, wife every,
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: day on her knees in, private prayed that verse for
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: me And. God On november the eighth of nineteen eighty,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: one WHEN i received his free gift of grace became
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: a child Of. God that first became true because he
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: began to, change not, overnight but over. TIME i values my,
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: character my, morality my, attitudes my, philosophy everything about my.
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: Life AM i? Perfect no far cry from? It DO
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: i still? Sin? YES i, Do BUT i grieve WHEN
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: i do, now AND i pray For god to help
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: me next time SO i won't. Sin and SO i
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: take a couple of steps forward a couple of steps
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: back WHEN i grow a little bit every year in
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: my relationship With god and he changes me from the.
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: Inside that's the work of The Holy spirit in the
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: life of A. Christian things THAT i used to do
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: that didn't bother me now WOULD i couldn't you? Know
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: WHEN i was an atheist in, COLLEGE i helped set
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: up an abortion for a GIRL i knew who has
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: gotten praying her boyfriend who walked out in HER i
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 2: don't worry About we'll just get rid of the. BABY
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 2: i set up that, abortion we killed that. Child didn't
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: bother me a. Bit back THEN i Realized god's forgiven
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: me of. That and NOW i, KNOW i, Mean god's
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: changed my. Values IF i could go, back of, COURSE
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: i wouldn't do that. Again so things. Change, fortunately The
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: bible said In Second, christians you know when you come
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: to faith like, that the oldest, gone the newest. Come,
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: wow sorry to get, emotional but you, KNOW i kind
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 2: of relive it WHEN i tell, it you, KNOW i,
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: MEAN i go back to that moment and, think, GOSH
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: i just poured out my heart of this gross things
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: THAT i had done in my, life terrible, sins and
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: just laying that all out To god and, Saying, GOD i,
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: believe based on What i've, learned That jesus has paid
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: for all That he paid the PENALTY i deserve for
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: the sins That i've, committed AND i want to receive
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 2: that gift right. Now and that sense of being, forgiven
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: of having that washed, away wiped, away was just so.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: Liberating just SO i felt LIKE i was ten pounds.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: Lighter and you, know that's the pivotal moment in my.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 2: Life pivotal MOMENT i think of my.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: Eternity so you spent two, years, yeah just to just
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: to disprove, This, yeah just to try to get your
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: wife to quit. Believing.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 2: YEAH i thought it'd be a lot. EASIER i really.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 2: DID i, Thought oh my, gosh you tell me someone
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 2: rose to. Debt, yeah, yeah, yeah give me a. BREAK
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 2: i THINK i could disprove that. Overnight, gosh it was
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: like hitting that thing and it just bounced back.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 3: Up so going back to kind of the laws that
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: we were talking, About, yeah you know THAT i guess
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 3: THAT i had brought. Up, yeah why Did god need
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: to Send jesus here to suffer.
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: To forgive us for our? Sins why didn't he just forgive?
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: Us great question if he were just. Too there's always
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 2: a payment involved when forgiveness.
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 3: Happens isn't that part of isn't wouldn't you consider that
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 3: some type of some type of a law that needs
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: to be a bide in a?
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 2: Sense, yeah in a, sense it's kind of a law
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: of the world in that that when you sin against
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: me and you you scratch my car or, SOMETHING i
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: can forgive you and just, say, yeah just walk. Away
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 2: but THEN i got to pay for. IT i got
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 2: to pay to have a fix Or i'm going to
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: lose money WHEN i trade it, in So i'm going
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: to end up paying for. It someone has to pay the,
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: price and you, know for who can pay the, price except.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: If It's, God then why does somebody need to pay the.
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: Price If god can do, anything then why did somebody
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: have to pay the?
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 2: Price because the only way them, go the only way
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 2: That god could forgive all of, humankind would be to
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: send the perfect, person that Is, jesus who is Fully
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: god and fully, man who lived the perfect, life who
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: himself was without, sin to pay for the sins of.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: Others so it had to be someone who himself was.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: Sinless well who's, That, well it's Only god, himself and
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 2: that's Who jesus, is fully god fully, man so he
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: lived the sinless, life so he becomes the. Sacrifice in,
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 2: fact the whole sacrificial system in The Old testament among
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 2: The jewish people was pointing toward. This how on the
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 2: day Of, atonement the high priests would go in and
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: he would sacrifice an animal symbolic of that animal's life
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: being taken to pay for the sins of The jewish.
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: People know how did that? Work it worked because it was.
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: Foreshadowing it was trying to, say, ultimately the lamb Of,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: god who takes away the sin of the, world is
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: going to. Come he's gonna be born In bethlehem On.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: Christmas you can live the perfect, life and he's going
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: to be the one who's going to be sacrificed to
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: pay for the sins of the. World so there's always a.
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: Payment it's kind of one of those. Realities And jesus
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: is the only, one by virtue of his sinless life
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: and his nature being Fully god and fully, manned the
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: only one who could be a sacrifice for all of. Humanity,
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: man it's just it's mind.
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: Boggling it's not it. Is It's i'm still NOT i
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: understand what you're. SAYING i don't understand why it had to.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: Happen if it Was, god was it? WELL i think
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: was it a message to? Us was he trying to
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: prove something to? Us?
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: NO i think it's more that he loves. Us god is.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: Love The bible Says god loves us beyond a love
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: that we can even. Comprehend and he knows because we
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: have used our free will to turn our back on,
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: him to violate us laws we've, sinned and because we have,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: sinned we can never enter. Heaven so What's god to?
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: Do you're, Right, God, Well god can't do. Anything he
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: can do many. Things he's, powerful he's, omniscient he's. Omnipotent
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 2: he can't do, everything can't, lie you, know he. Can't you,
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 2: know there's certain things he can't. Do but in order
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: for him to accomplish the atonement for our, sins so
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 2: that because the choice is, This, sean you can pay
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 2: for your, sin the sins that you've. Committed you want
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 2: to pay for? Those, okay you can do. That The
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: bible says the wages of sin is. Death you be
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: separated From god forever because you can't come into his
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: presence because you're a. Sinner if you want to do,
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: that that's your free, will that's your. Choice But god
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: didn't wants you to do. That he loves, You he
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: wants to spend eternity with you in. Heaven and so he,
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: said how CAN i how CAN i erase this sin
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: From sean's? Life? Jesus what If jesus paid for that?
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: Sin what if he atoned for That what if he
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 2: was the sacrifice who paid the penalty that you deserved
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: for the sins that you've. Committed said, no, no, No i'm
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: paying for, him not as some third. Party but he
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: is The god that we sinned. Against so he's not
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: some innocent third. Party, no he is The god we sinned.
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: Against so he is the one who's going to go
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: to the cross to pay that. Penalty Because god loves,
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 2: you he wants spend eternity with, you and by wiping
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 2: out the sin in clothing you in the righteousness Of,
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: god the doors of heaven are opened up and you
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: can spend eternity With him. Forever SO i DON'T i
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: don't know what Else god could have. Done how else
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: could he have achieved payment for the sins of the,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: world apart from forcing all of us to pay for
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: our own. SINS i don't how else he could have done.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: IT i think it was the only path that makes
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: sense to, Me AND i think, Honestly god has left
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 2: a trail in history for people like you and me
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 2: and others who are, curious does this really make? Sense
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 2: Did jesus really return from the dead and Prove He's
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: god and The christianity is true and therefore we can
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 2: trust what he? Says and so. FORTH i Think god
• 1:47:28
  Speaker 2: intentionally left evidence that leads us that can be used
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: to lead us to the conclusion That jesus is who
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: he claimed to. Be you, know WHEN i was in law,
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: school one of my heroes was a guy who was
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: the greatest lawyer in the. World he was in The
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: LATER i think it. Was he was in The Guinness
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: book Of World records as the most successful defense attorney
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 2: who ever. Lived his name Was Sir. LIONEL lucku get,
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: this you'll appreciate. This he won two hundred and forty
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: seven murder trials in a row as a defense, attorney
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: either before the jury or on. Appeal. Wow, yeah nobody's ever.
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: Done he's in A giveness book of greatest LAWYER i ever.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: Lived he was a skeptic LIKE i, was about the.
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: Resurrection he Thought jesus in the return from the dead
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: and Prove he, Says, kay give me a break and
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 2: they'll summon challenge. Him Sir, lionel you're the greatest. Lord
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: have you ever taken your monumental legal skill and applied
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: it to the historical records and come to an informed
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: conclusion about whether or Not jesus did return from the.
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: Dead he, said, NO i, haven't BUT i. Will so
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: he set. Out he did WHAT i. Did he spent
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: years investigating the, evidence And i'll recite to you one
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: sentence he wrote that summarized this. Conclusion he, SAYS i
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: say unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection Of Jesus
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 2: christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by, proof
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: which leaves absolutely no room for. Doubt this is a
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: guy that knows. Evidence he could take what looks like
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: an airtight case against his client and find all the.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: Flaws he was knighted twice By. Elizabeth he became a
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: member of The Supreme court of his. Country and that
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: was his conclusion about the. Evidence by the, WAY i
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: shared that story In california at a church WHERE i
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: just moved back in two thousand AND a woman came
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: up to me afterwards and she, Said i'm a new.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: Neighbor you just moved into my. Neighborhood you haven't met,
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: him but YET i lived on the, block and, oh
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: it's great to meet. You she, said, Yeah i'm Sir lionel's.
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: Sister wow's his Sister? Wow AND i, said DID i
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: tell the story? Accurately she said, Absolutely she, said in,
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 2: fact let me show you some of his private papers
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: where he did his research and so. Forth and so
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: she showed me some of his private writings and. Stuff
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: he later resigned from practice of law and became an.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: Evangelist but that just shows, You, now do most people
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 2: check it? Out, no most people. Don't you, know most
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: people don't take two years of their life LIKE i
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 2: did and really delve into. It but that's WHY i
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: wrote the case For christ to, say you, know maybe
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: this is a. Way SO i just interviewed scholars and
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: let them present the case in an affirmative. Way but you,
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: KNOW i just encourage anybody's watching to, say you, know
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: if you if you, question if you doubt.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 4: It do WHAT i.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 2: Did check it. Out there's plenty of evidence out. There
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: do the due diligence and come to an informed conclusion
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: Whether jesus is who he claim To because if he,
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: is then what he says about, us how he says
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: we should, live what he says about, heaven what he
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: says about the eternal condition of our, soul and so,
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: forth we can trust it if he is who he
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: claim to be.
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: When we're talking about. Sin, yeah and that that that if,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: you if you.
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: Get to Know, jesus all sins are. Forgiven, Yeah i've also.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: Heard i've heard both things that that all sins are.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 3: Equal there is not one that's that's that's stealing is
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 3: the same as, murder is the same as, rape is
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 3: the same as all these. Things and THEN i also
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 3: have heard there are cardinal, sins and which.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: IS i think there are gradations of. SIN i don't
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: think they're all. Equal jesus said a couple of, times for,
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: instance that people in the villages that he went into
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: and demonstrated his divinity through his miracles and still Rejected,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: god they will suffer greater punishment than. Others The bible
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: also says that, again in other, words people who had
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: advanced knowledge Of him through his miracles and so, forth
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: and yet reject him, anyway they will be judged more
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: harshly than those who didn't see those miracles and so.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: Forth The bible talks about the unforgivable, sin the sin
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: that can't be, forgiven and that's the lastpheaming of The Holy,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: spirit says that it will not be forgiven in this
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 2: life or the life to. Come what exactly does that?
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: Mean that's a good. Question and here's my best attempt
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 2: at an. Answer The Holy spirit is who draws us Towards.
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: Christ Is god reaching out to, us whispering in our.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: Ear god loves, You. Sean god made you for him
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: to spend eternity with He. He he is the one
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 2: seeking us before we even Seek. God to blaspheam The
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: Holy spirit is to turn our back on that and say.
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: Forget you don't want, anything and you live your life
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: SAYING i don't care About, god and you die in
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: a way that means you're going to end up paying
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: for your own sin because you didn't Accept jesus payment
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: on your. Behalf and SO i believe the blaspheming As Holy.
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 2: Spirit the unforgivable sin is rejecting The god who is
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: calling out to you to come to.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: Him did you not do that when you were an?
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: ATHEIST i did.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 2: IT i did, it but at the end of my
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 2: life wasn't there yet because after that THEN i, Accepted, okay,
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: yeah so you. Can you, know you live a life
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 2: opposed To god as an atheist OR i, did and
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: but then that turns when you come to.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: Faith you, KNOW i kind of want TO i don't
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 1: know how to initiate. It BUT i want to talk
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: a little bit about the everybody's just so. Judgmental yeah these,
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: DAYS i, know isn't it? True including?
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 3: Myself AND i catched myself all the, time but you,
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 3: know and we're both somewhat active on social, media and you,
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 3: know it's it's like it doesn't matter WHAT i POST i,
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 3: did you, Know And i'm never going to let people's
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 3: judgment interfere with my. Curiosity But i've Had i've had
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 3: all kinds of people on the. Show i've had remote,
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 3: Viewers i've Had i've Had John burke and no matter
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 3: who it, is, yeah.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah pushed.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: Back, yeah even.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 3: Even today WHEN i talked, about you, know putting The
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 3: bibles in the, FOUNDATION i got people judging me for.
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 4: That.
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah i'm just, trying you know What i'm.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: Trying and social media it's so public and it's so,
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 2: instant and it's so in your, face and it's people
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: that don't know you and don't have the courtesy to
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 2: call you up and, say, hey why are you doing?
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: This oh, Really, OKAY i GUESS i get, it you,
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: KNOW i mean they judge you based on what they
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: see that may be a slice of what you've, done
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: AND i know it's, hard and there's a lot of
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 2: churches that have that kind of reputation of being.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: Judgmental do you think that they they realize how many?
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: People you?
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 3: KNOW i wonder if they because Maybe i'm, wrong but
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 3: it seems like we're all here to kind of spread the,
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 3: word right and, so and to bring people. In and
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 3: so you, KNOW i hear this AND i read it
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: and it really pisses me, off you, know and that
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: it drove me away for a very long. Time AND
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: i you, KNOW i have no proof of, this BUT
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 3: i would imagine that they they push people away From,
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 3: god From. Christ IF i were a betting, MAN i
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 3: would bet that they push way more people away from
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 3: coming to than they do bring.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: IN i hope, not BUT i fear you may be.
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: RIGHT i, mean it's. Sad you. Know The bible says
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: should we, Judge, yes we are to judge in but
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: The bible, says with gentleness and, respect we should make
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 2: judgments about. Things that's, okay that's good to. Do but
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 2: it does say, That, Yeah bible says, that but but
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: it's how we. Judge in other, words judgmentalism is a
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 2: hypocritical holier than, thou looking down your, nose pushing people,
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: away you're not good, enough excluding people on whatever. Basis
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: that's what chases people. Away. Uh you, know when when
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 2: we talk About, jesus it's going to be a natural.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: Divide they're gonna be people are going to, say, yep,
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 2: yep gotcha with. You there can be PEOPLE i don't
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 2: want to hear, that OR i reject, that or is
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 2: making me. Mad i'm not going to shy away from
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 2: the people who makes, mad because there are people who
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 2: need to hear the. Message you want to hear the,
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 2: message and they're going to respond to the. Message SO
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: i get all kinds of hate. MAIL i get people
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 2: fantasizing about murdering. ME i get all kinds of stuff.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 2: Serious oh, yeah.
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: Why would they want to do? That what did you?
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 2: SAY i, KNOW i know, you, well look at what
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: happened To. Jesus they kill, him you, know they kill the.
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 2: Disciples so are the. Apostles and so that comes with
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: the territory in a. Sense what do you think about
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: humanity as a? WHOLE i think we are from the
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: position that you're. In you see thousands of, people, yeah,
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: million fourteen million copies sold of your.
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 3: Books, yeah we've got a lot of. Exposure. Yeah what
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 3: do you think of humanity as a?
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: WHOLE i think we are headed on the wrong path,
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 2: generally that we are sinners that are manifesting our sins
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: in a variety of different. WAYS i think we there's
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of good, people might say, good not perfect,
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: people but people who who want to do what's, right
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: who are trying to follow the teachings Of, scripture who
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: want to love, others who want to encourage, others who
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 2: want to be positive and share this message of hope
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 2: and grace and love and redemption and eternal. Life but you,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: know The bible says we're coming to a, Crisis we're
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 2: coming to a. Conclusion at some, point history is going
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 2: to be, consummated And jesus is going to come. Back
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: and when that, happens it's going to be too late
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: for people who haven't made that choice yet to receive
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: him as their forgive and. Leader so you, know in a,
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: Sense i've read the end of the, story and the
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 2: end of the story is history will be, Consummated satan
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: will be thrown into the lake of. Fire that's. Metaphorical
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 2: but And jesus will come back to, judge and you,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: know you don't want to be found wanting at that.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: Moment you want to be someone who's safely adopted as
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 2: a son or a daughter Of god because he won't
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 2: disown his own.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 1: Children what does that mean for my one year old
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: daughter when he comes.
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: Back, yeah that's a great. Question you, know what about
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: children who are too young to really understand right and,
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: wrong who are too young to.
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 3: Their brain has not developed enough to make educated decisions
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 3: or to learn the type of.
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: Stuff Exactly my conviction on, This i've written about this
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 2: and interview scholars about this that in the case of
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 2: people below the age of accountability who don't really have
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 2: that sense of right and, wrong who are too, young
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 2: that they will not be held accountable for the things
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 2: that they've done that may have been shouldn't have, done
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 2: the naughty things that they've done as, infants and so.
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: Forth so in other, WORDS i think That god. Will
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 2: it's so it's sort of you, know there's a there's a,
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: term A latin term in local parentis and it MEANS
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: i act in the place of your. Parents so if
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 2: you're if my parents are out of the, country if
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 2: you're a, kid and you injured in an accident and
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 2: your parents are out of the, country the court can,
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: SAY i can act in local, PARENTIS i can act
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: in your parents place and make decisions about. YOU i
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: kind of picture this as when you're that, Young jesus
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: acts in local. Parentis he steps in the place of
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: your parents and in a sense brings redemption to. Children you,
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 2: know there's a there's a scripture that says That, david
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: who committed a sin With bathsheba and so, forth says
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 2: that that child cannot come to, me BUT i can
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: go to. Him in other, words that child's can be in.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: Heaven some. Day i'm going to go to. HEAVEN i
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: will be with that child. Someday so, YEAH i think
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 2: that before the age of, accountability children are not. Responsible
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: they're not committing a sin because that that involves some,
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: volition you, know some, choice and you, know kids are.
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: Kids Did jesus judge when he was on.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: Earth, definitely but he did it with gentleness and. Respect you,
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: know we're told that in One peter three or, fifteen All,
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: christians you, know are to present evidence for the, faith
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: to defend the, faith but do it gently and. Respectfully
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with, judging as long as it's done
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 2: respectfully and. Gently we make judgments all the. Time, now
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: there's a famous verse that, says do not, judge but
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: you have to keep. Reading and when you keep, reading
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 2: you understand it, says don't judge in. Appropriately don't be
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: judgmental in a way that is. Hypocritical it, Says i'm
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 2: better than, you and who are? You who are you
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 2: to call the name Of Jesus you're, no that's being.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 2: Judgmental Making we need to make good. Judgments we need
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 2: we make judgments about everything every, day and that's. Okay
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 2: but to be judgmental is to be sort of like The.
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 2: Pharisees and there's in The New, testament who were you,
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: know they would make a show of their faith and
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: they would pray on the street, corners and And, jesus
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: you know what you're gonna, Pray go to your prayer
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 2: clauset and pray in. Private don't make a show of
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 2: it the way these symprocrits. Do and that's kind of
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: judging others By i'm better than. YOU i look at,
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: Me i'm praying on a street. Corner, BOY i must
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: be really loved By. God, no that's, judgmentalism that's.
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: Hypocrisy you, know we we'd you were talking a little
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: bit earlier about you Can't what did you say something,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: about you can't good deed your way into? Heaven?
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: Right you?
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 1: Know AND i think about that a.
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 3: Lot, yeah and a lot of bad things THAT i
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 3: did in my, life and probably more bad than, good
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 3: without a, doubt and not probably without a.
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: Doubt and so NOW i feel Like i'm trying to
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: make up for a lot of lost.
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 3: Time and you, know AND i talked to a guy like,
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 3: you and you and you, say you, know good deeds
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 3: aren't going to get you into. Heaven and And i've
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 3: BEEN i had a priest on a couple of months,
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 3: AGO i told, You And i've been meeting with him
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 3: every once in a while and having coffee and kind
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 3: of picking his brain off. Camera AND i asked him about,
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 3: that and he didn't necessarily say the, opposite but AND
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 3: i DON'T i don't want to put words in his,
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 3: mouth but he had kind of.
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: Alluded to the that that maybe.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe he does pay attention to some of the good
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 3: that you're injecting into the.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: World, oh, Definitely here's HOW i would envision. It i'm
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 2: kind OF i like. Mathematics so here's kind of the
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 2: equation AS i see, it and AS i believe The
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 2: bible presents. It jesus plus nothing equals eternal life plus good. Deeds,
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 2: so in other, words coming to faith In christ is a.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 2: Gift we can't earn, it we don't deserve, it we
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: don't merit. It we can only receive it in a
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 2: prayer of repentance and. Faith i'm sorry for my. SINS
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: i want to turn from. THAT i want to receive
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 2: you as My lord and, savior my, forgiver my. LEADER
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 2: i want to follow you all the days of my.
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: Life thank you for forgiving my. Sins jesus plus nothing
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: that we can merit equals eternal. Life but then there's
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: another part of the. Equation so now you've become A
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 2: christian eternal. Life so As jesus plus nothing equals eternal
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 2: life plus good, deeds the good deeds are on the
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: other side of the. Equation they don't earn your way to.
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 2: Heaven they come because now you've become a follower Of,
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 2: jesus and you do good deeds because The Holy spirit
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: is working in you and you want to you know
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: LIKE i did this, abortion set up this abortion for
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 2: this woman WHEN i was an. Atheist now as A,
• 2:05:26
  Speaker 2: CHRISTIAN i do fundraising for crisis pregnancy centers that help
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 2: women who have a pregnancy that is unwanted to realize
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 2: that they could keep their child or they can adopt it,
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 2: out and to help them through that. Crisis so AM
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 2: i doing good deeds to earn my way to? Heaven,
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 2: No i'm doing that Because god has changed my. Life
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 2: i'm doing that Because god has changed my. Values you're
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 2: doing good deeds not in a desperate attempt to claw
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 2: your way To. GOD i HOPE i do. ENOUGH i
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 2: hope my balance between good and bad is no good
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: deeds because when you come To christ as a free,
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 2: gift now your values, changed and now yes you do
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 2: do good. Deeds you do serve, others you do live
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 2: as hopefully with a sense of the Way jesus lived
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: in helping other people who are in, need and so. Forth, so,
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: yes good deeds have a role in The christian, life
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: but not a role that contributes in any way to.
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 2: Salvation it comes after, salvation after we've Received christ as
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 2: our forgiver and, leader then we do good deeds because we're.
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 2: Changed and you, KNOW i do things TODAY i never
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 2: would have done WHEN i was an. Atheist SO i
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 2: didn't give a rip about. People NOW i do because
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 2: they're made in the image Of. God and SO i
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 2: see that now And god's changed my values and so
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: NOW i do hopefully some good. Things and Does god
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: take cognizance of, That, yeah he. Does most SCHOLARS i
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 2: interview believe that there will be rewards in heaven based
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 2: on how we've lived our. Life in other, words our
• 2:07:03
  Speaker 2: journey to heaven is not based on how good we.
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 2: Are it's based on. Forgiveness it's free gift of. Grace
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 2: but then how we live our life As, christians how
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 2: we serve, others how we do good stuff for, Others
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 2: god will ultimately reward us for that in. Heaven How, so,
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 2: well that's a good, question because let's say we both
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: get to heaven And i'm looking at you and, going,
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: hey he's getting treated better than. Me he's getting rewarded Because,
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 2: sean you, know he did a bunch of nice things
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 2: AND i didn't do as many As and NOW i feel,
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: bad and HERE i am in heaven And i'm pissed.
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: OFF i mean that could. Happen here's the WAY i
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 2: think it. Happens let's say That i'm A let's say
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 2: that you're a, connoisseur an expert on classical. Music you studied,
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: it you play the, violin maybe you know all the great.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: Composers you love to listen to classical. Music it feeds your.
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 2: SOUL i DON'T i like rock and. Roll i'm an average.
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 2: GUY i don't have that. Sensitivity in, heaven where there
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 2: is incredible, MUSIC i will listen to it as someone
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 2: without much music taste and, Go, wow that is the
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: most beautiful Sound i've ever. Heard you will listen to
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 2: it as a connoisseur of classical. Music your appreciation of
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: it will be deeper because you. Will you will experience
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 2: it in a deeper. WAY i won't know. That just
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 2: be next to. You we'll sit next To we're, going
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 2: isn't this music? Unbelievable you, go, yeah it's. Unbelievable but
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 2: you're experiencing on a deeper level THAN i am BECAUSE
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 2: i don't have what you. HAVE i didn't spend my
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 2: life studying classical. Music you see What i'm. Saying so that,
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 2: Way i'm not jealous of. YOU i, mean we're both
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 2: really enjoying this music in, heaven but you're experiencing a deeper.
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 2: LEVEL i think that's kind of how it's going to,
• 2:08:56
  Speaker 2: work so THAT i don't get jealous and and they
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 2: That i've missed. Out and part of it is when
• 2:09:03
  Speaker 2: you live a lifestyle of serving, others of doing good,
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 2: deeds of living Like. Jesus, YES i Think god will
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 2: reward you for, that but you will resonate so much
• 2:09:17
  Speaker 2: more with this perfect place called. Heaven then MAYBE i,
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 2: will who is maybe a pretty good. Guy but you,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 2: KNOW i didn't quite do much with my life as A,
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 2: christian BUT i made it in BECAUSE i Received christ
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 2: AND i did some good. Things but my rewards are
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 2: going to be.
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 3: Less so you believe it will Be you believe the
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 3: person that ejected more good into the world may have
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 3: a more enjoyable. CONSCIOUSNESS i THINK i Think Process gordon in.
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 3: Heaven that's somebody who Has.
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 2: There's jesus himself, said blessed are those when you were,
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: persecuting when people say all kinds of false things about
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: you because Of? Me because great will your reward be in.
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 2: Heaven So, sean when you step out and you do
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 2: things pointing people Towards jesus through your, show and you're
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 2: criticized for it and people attack you on social media or.
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 2: Whatever god is, saying blessed are you when you Honor
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 2: me despite the, persecution the arrows of hate that you,
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: get because great will your reward be in. Heaven that's
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 2: one example that he gives In scripture of how he
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 2: will reward people who have endured persecution and hatred and
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 2: social media attacks in this world because Of. Him great
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 2: will they be rewarded in. Heaven SO i, think, YES
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 2: i think there will be rewards in. HEAVEN i think
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 2: it will. Be it won't be the same exact experience for.
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 2: Everybody not every theologian agrees with, that BUT i think
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 2: the evidence is strong that that's.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 1: True have you heard any of the other? Theories?
• 2:11:00
  Speaker 2: YEAH i. QUOTE i did a book Called The case For,
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 2: heaven and in that BOOK i interviewed a scholar AND
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 2: i think he made reference to another scholar who just
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 2: just doesn't believe, it doesn't believe that anybody's going to
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: be treated any differently in. Heaven that will all be
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 2: treated exactly the same in. Heaven And i'm sure we
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 2: will be all treated exactly the. Same but for some,
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 2: people because of who they are and how they live their,
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: life it will resonate deeper with them in my, view
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 2: and their, experience even though others will not sense, it
• 2:11:35
  Speaker 2: their experience will be ever deeper than what other people might.
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 1: HAVE i think that's. Biblical it makes. Sense, yeah it
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: does make.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 4: Sense.
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah so good deeds are a good, thing and when
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 2: they're done for the right. Purpose when they're, done try
• 2:11:47
  Speaker 2: to earn our way To, god they're. Useless but when
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: they're done out of a heart of gratitude To god And,
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 2: GOD i want to serve. YOU i want to honor.
• 2:11:56
  Speaker 2: You got You i'm going to. DO i know this sounds.
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 2: CRAZY i Know i'm going to get attack for. This
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 2: i'm going to bury Four bibles in the cement foundation
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 2: that we're, building just as a way of, SAYING i
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 2: want to build what i'm doing on. YOU i think
• 2:12:12
  Speaker 2: you'll reward. THAT i think that's the kind of. Thing he'll.
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 2: Say you know, What you're gonna have attacked for, That
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 2: you're gonna have made fun of for. That blessed are
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 2: you when you take those insults for? Me great will
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 2: your reward be in? Heaven he sees that, stuff he
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 2: sees how people live for, him AND i don't believe
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 2: it's a wasted effort because it comes out of a sincere.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 2: Heart you're not motivated by anything EXCEPT i believe. SINCERELY
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 2: i want to do this as a way to Honor.
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 2: God and he knows. That do those attacks bother you
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 2: when they?
• 2:12:44
  Speaker 1: Happen you?
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 2: Know, yeah of course they, do you, know to some.
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 2: Degree AND i always go back to that verse From jesus,
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 2: saying greater is your reward in. Heaven i'm blessed are?
• 2:12:54
  Speaker 2: You and men persecute you and say all kinds of
• 2:12:56
  Speaker 2: things falsely about you because of. Me but it's still.
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 2: Her you, know you're on social media and ninety percent
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 2: of the PEOPLE i mean on social media are really nice,
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 2: folks and then there's that ten percent that just love to.
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 2: Attack and, yeah it gets you down a. BIT i,
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 2: mean just being honest.
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 1: Doesn't bother me that. Much, really what bothers me is
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: when it's when it's The christian crowd that that really
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 1: gets to.
• 2:13:24
  Speaker 2: Me, yeah, YEAH i get.
• 2:13:26
  Speaker 3: That it's, like, MAN i feel Like i'm doing something good. Here,
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 3: yeah what is your? Problem right? Right, like, yeah this
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 3: is what you do all, day you, know ask Other
• 2:13:40
  Speaker 3: christians for like trying to like.
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 2: What And i've had a couple of scholars that have attacked.
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 2: Me that's WHY i like to interview renowned scholars in my,
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 2: research so That i'm going to the best possible sources for.
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 2: Things but you will get other scholars AND i don't,
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 2: know he's wrong and here's, Why AND i, GO i
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 2: always listened to. Him but THEN i, think, yeah this
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 2: first scholar makes more.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 3: Sense, yeah you, KNOW i WATCHED i THINK i Found.
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 3: JOHN i got to Thank john too for. Connectives thank You.
• 2:14:12
  Speaker 3: John you, know that's HOW i found. Him in that,
• 2:14:17
  Speaker 3: documentary it was the, case AND i think it was
• 2:14:23
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of that you, guys you were having
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 3: a conversation about how people are scared of death and
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 3: they are. Everybody it seems like a lot of people
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 3: want to leave kind of a legacy legacy, behind and it's.
• 2:14:46
  Speaker 3: INTERESTING i remember WHEN i watched, IT i WAS i
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 3: did three and a half years of talk therapy.
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: From from combat stress and form my time in s
• 2:15:00
  Speaker 1: OF us at The, agency AND i remember my my
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: doc was asking me what my biggest fear, was and
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 1: my biggest fear was in. Death my biggest fear was
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 1: that nobody will remember me WHEN i, die and then you,
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: know and then probably damn near ten years, Later i'm
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 1: watching this documentary that you produced or and and you're
• 2:15:30
  Speaker 1: talking about, it AND i Never i've never heard anybody
• 2:15:33
  Speaker 1: else say. That apparently it's more you.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 2: Know and THEN i, thought BUT i talked to this one,
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 2: professor and he, SAID i have a large class of.
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 2: STUDENTS i always asked this, question how many of you
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 2: know the first names of your great great? Grandparents he,
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 2: said all the, years nobody has known the first name
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 2: of the great great grandparenter except one. Guy he, Said we're.
• 2:15:55
  Speaker 2: Forgotten we will be. Forgotten and some people will try
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 2: to write the Great american, novel or they'll try to
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 2: paint the most beautiful painting of the, world or they'll
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 2: try to create a skyscraper so that somehow they'll be.
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 2: Remembered but it's a vain. Attempt we're going to be.
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 2: Forgotten some people remember a little longer than, others but
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 2: the truth is most people are forgotten pretty. Quickly but
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 2: that motivates a lot of people in a negative way. Too,
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 2: sir who's the guy that Killed John Lennon. Chapman he
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 2: told the pro, BOARD i killed him BECAUSE i wanted
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 2: a piece of his. Fame you want to be, Famous
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 2: so he Killed John John lennon The. Beatle people do
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 2: evil things to be known to be, remembered or they
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 2: do they try to do great. Things, well it's neither of.
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 2: WORK i, mean it's a vain. Attempt we'll all be.
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 2: Forgotten do you think about that? Often it doesn't bother
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 2: me as much. Anymore AFTER i did that movie and
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 2: wrote that book about, Heaven it's, like you, KNOW i
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 2: know Where i'm going AFTER i, die AND i don't
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 2: have to worry about. THAT i came close to. Death
• 2:17:02
  Speaker 2: we were talking at breakfast in twenty eleven and lingered
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 2: between life and death for several. Days and that was
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 2: maybe the most clarifying experience of my, life because all
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 2: of a, Sudden i'm, saying what is really? Important what really?
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 2: Matters when you're you, KNOW i have the doctor look
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 2: at me and, say you're one step away from, macoma
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 2: two steps away from. DYING i was on the verge
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 2: of dying and my wife fold me. Unconscious and when
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 2: you're in that, situation nothing is more, Important nothing matters
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 2: more than what happens WHEN i closed my eyes for
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 2: the last time in this. World that's. It you don't
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 2: care about a. Legacy you don't. Care AM i going
• 2:17:53
  Speaker 2: to be remembered or? Forgotten doesn't. Matter what matters is
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 2: what happens WHEN i closed my eyes for the fast
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 2: time in this. World where DO i open them? Next
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 2: that's all that. Matters what about? Family, yeah well that's
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 2: why you. Know we Share jesus with our, family with our,
• 2:18:15
  Speaker 2: grandkids with our son and, daughter Both, christians AND i
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 2: think the highest ACHIEVEMENT i can attain as a, grandfather
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 2: as a, father is to see my children come to
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: faith In. Jesus and my son's a PhD in, theology
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 2: a professor at a, seminary written many books about prayer
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 2: and so. Forth and my daughter is a. Novelist she writes,
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 2: fiction but she always weaves The gospel into the. Fiction
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 2: they're both Serving god and my little grandchildren coming to
• 2:18:45
  Speaker 2: faith one by, one and that becomes the most important
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 2: thing to. Me you, know people, say what are you
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 2: doing in the later years of your. Life you're in
• 2:18:53
  Speaker 2: your seventies. NOW i want to see my grandkids come to.
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 2: FAITH i want to see them and they are one by.
• 2:18:58
  Speaker 2: One that's.
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 1: Thrilling it's family important To. Jesus, yes it seems like
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 1: AND i.
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 3: CAN'T i don't know if it's all or if it's almost.
• 2:19:17
  Speaker 3: All it seems like in these near death, experiences which
• 2:19:21
  Speaker 3: you have your new book coming out that and you,
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 3: KNOW i haven't dove into. Yours but talking To John,
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 3: burke there's always family. Lineage AM i correct on?
• 2:19:33
  Speaker 2: That what do you mean by family?
• 2:19:34
  Speaker 1: LINEAGE i mean a lot of people are, saying, oh, yes, relatives.
• 2:19:39
  Speaker 2: Yes absolutely. Absolutely in, fact deathbed VISIONS i write. About
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 2: deathbed visions are different than near death experience and near death.
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 2: EXPERIENCE a person is clinically, dead maybe no, heartbeat no brain,
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 2: ways and yet they see things and hear, things some of.
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 2: Them they couldn't see her here if they didn't have
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 2: an authentic outer body. Experience but they're going to come.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 2: Back they're they're they're temporarily, dead so to. Speak deathbed
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 2: visions happen when a person is about to die, permanently
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 2: and it's a FASCINATING i interviewed the world's leading expert on,
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 2: these and tens of thousands of these cases have been.
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 2: Studied this is very common in The. Bible, stephen before
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 2: he was stoned to, death saw heaven open, up and
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 2: he got a glimpse of what was to. Come and
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 2: many people before they die get a glimpse of what
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 2: is to. Come it's. Interesting jesus told the story About
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 2: lazarus uh and the. Beggar the beggar during his Lifetime,
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 2: ignored was treated poorly By. Lazarus lazarus was, rich and
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 2: he treated the beggar with the. Stain and yet here
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 2: we Have lazarus now, dead but in Hades a separated From,
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 2: god and the beggar is With. God And jesus said something.
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 2: Interesting he, said the angels Carried lazarus.
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 1: To.
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 2: God and what's fast about these these, visions deathbed, visions
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 2: is how many people seeing angels coming for? THEM i
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 2: mean it is it is so. Common at one, hospice
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 2: which was a huge hospice operation In New York, state
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 2: they asked. People they, said tell, us if you have
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 2: a vision or a vivid dream before you, die that
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 2: is astounding to, you or it gives you a glimpse
• 2:21:50
  Speaker 2: of what's the come or. Whatever eighty eight percent had
• 2:21:53
  Speaker 2: something like eighty eight.
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 3: Percent my great grandmother had, this did she really did what?
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 1: Happened she?
• 2:22:00
  Speaker 3: SAW i. WAS i wasn't in a place WHERE i
• 2:22:05
  Speaker 3: took it seriously at the, time to be honest with.
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 1: It BUT i heard my mom talk about, it AND
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: i REMEMBER i remember going through.
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 3: It and seeing her in, there and she saw a
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 3: lot of, relatives. Yep and she started calling out people's
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 3: names that nobody knew who the hell that she was talking.
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 1: About and.
• 2:22:29
  Speaker 2: Here's how we know that they're. AUTHENTIC a couple of
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 2: things tell me that these are. Authentic number, one how
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 2: common they are here we Are what were the chances
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 2: that you've had direct experience with that through it?
• 2:22:39
  Speaker 1: RELATIVE i just want TO i just want, SORRY i
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: just want to interject.
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 2: TOO i.
• 2:22:45
  Speaker 3: Believe BUT i think my great grandma was one hundred
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 3: and she was one hundred and one or one hundred
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 3: and two years. Old, wow sharp as, attack not talking zero.
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 3: Dementia wow you got good genes one side of my.
• 2:22:59
  Speaker 3: Family but but but seriously sharp as, attack just like,
• 2:23:05
  Speaker 3: man you's sitting here right now. Today and not That i'm,
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 3: sharp but BUT i just want To this isn't like some.
• 2:23:15
  Speaker 2: Crazy crazy in. Dimension it's a good. Point this is
• 2:23:19
  Speaker 2: it's a good.
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: Somebody that was with it all the way until the.
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 2: End it Is i'm telling, You, sean it is so.
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 2: Common Billy graham's pulpit, Partner Charles, templeton who became an
• 2:23:32
  Speaker 2: atheist and later came back to faith before he, died
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 2: said to his wife on his, Deathbed, madeline can you see?
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 2: Them can you? Hear they're? Here what are you talking?
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 2: About the? Angels you can't see. Them they're, Here they're
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 2: right here in this. Room they're coming for. Me they're.
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 2: Singing they're so. Beautiful i'm going to. Heaven Billy graham's maternal,
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 2: grandmother same. Thing and they often see. People but here's what's.
• 2:23:54
  Speaker 2: Interesting children who. Die you would, think if this is
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 2: just something in someone's, imagination subjective, experience a, child if
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 2: they saw an angel before they, died would think they
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 2: would have, wings because children's stories always have wings on the.
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 2: Angels that's not what. Happens so there's a CASE i
• 2:24:15
  Speaker 2: studied of a. Child she was dying and she said
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 2: to her, Mother, mommy can you see? Them can you
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 2: see the? Angels if come for? Me they're so? Beautiful
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 2: and her mother didn't want to deny, anything so she
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 2: lied and she, said, oh, yeah, YEAH i see. THEM
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 2: i see. Them, oh the wings are so. Big and
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 2: her daughter, Said, mommy they don't have. Wings you don't
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 2: have to. Lie they don't have. Wings and then she.
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 2: Died and it's just an example of seeing something not
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 2: what she would have, anticipated but seeing angels without. Wings
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 2: that's very. Common so these deathbed visions are, POWERFUL i
• 2:24:55
  Speaker 2: think in terms of giving us a glimpse into what's to.
• 2:24:58
  Speaker 2: Come the other, EXAMPLE i was a woman who was
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 2: dying after childbirth In england and great documentation of her,
• 2:25:07
  Speaker 2: case and she's on her deathbend she, sees can you
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 2: see these, beautiful wonderful. BEINGS i see. THEM i see,
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 2: them and she, oh here's my. Father and father's Name,
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 2: ED i can't remember his name Is. Ed he's beckoning to. Me,
• 2:25:23
  Speaker 2: Yes i'm gonna, Come, Ed i'm gonna. Come, oh There's vida.
• 2:25:28
  Speaker 2: There why Is vida? There and then she. Died, Well
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 2: vida was her. Sister she didn't know three weeks Earlier
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 2: vida had. Died they didn't tell her because she was so.
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 2: Sick they didn't want to cause her to die from
• 2:25:44
  Speaker 2: the shock of her sister, dies and they never told Her,
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 2: wow and here she is seeing her in the life to.
• 2:25:50
  Speaker 2: Come that's another kind of corroboration THAT i always look. For.
• 2:25:54
  Speaker 2: Corroboration how DO i? Know it's not just in your?
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 2: Head and SO i think that's a good example of
• 2:26:01
  Speaker 2: corroboration when people see something that they could not have,
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 2: anticipated like a relative they didn't know had.
• 2:26:06
  Speaker 3: Died, wow that's pretty. Cool, yeah very Very let's move
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 3: into Is god?
• 2:26:15
  Speaker 1: Real?
• 2:26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Book? Yeah what are some of the evidence that
• 2:26:19
  Speaker 3: really stood out to? You, well talk ABOUT, dna, yeah the? Universe,
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 3: yeah what Is what are some of the things that
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 3: really just stood out to?
• 2:26:28
  Speaker 2: YOU i think one of the most powerful discoveries of modern.
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 2: Ages this only goes back what fifty. Years people used
• 2:26:36
  Speaker 2: to think that the universe was, eternal it always. Existed
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 2: but now we know from a series of scientific discoveries
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 2: and philosophical arguments from the last century or so that
• 2:26:46
  Speaker 2: the universe had a beginning in the. Past at some
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 2: point in the, past the universe began to. Exist in,
• 2:26:52
  Speaker 2: fact the great Cosmologists Alexander, valincoln him and two other.
• 2:26:57
  Speaker 2: Cosmologists cosmologist just means the study of the origin of
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 2: the universe came up with a theorem that says that
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 2: even if our universe turns out to be one small
• 2:27:07
  Speaker 2: part of a, multiverse the multiverse itself must have had a.
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 2: Beginning so what does that mean that the universe had a. Beginning,
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 2: well it harkens back to an argument for the existence
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 2: Of god that's been popularized by my, friend a, philosopher
• 2:27:21
  Speaker 2: Doctor William Lang. Craig it goes like, this whatever begins
• 2:27:24
  Speaker 2: to exist has a. Cause we now know that the
• 2:27:28
  Speaker 2: universe began to. Exist therefore the universe has a cause behind. It,
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 2: well what kind of a cause can bring a universe into? Existence,
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 2: well it must be, transcendent which means apart from. Creation
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 2: it must be immaterial or spirit because it existed before
• 2:27:46
  Speaker 2: the physical. World must be timeless or eternal because it
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 2: existed before physical time came into. Being must be powerful
• 2:27:55
  Speaker 2: given the immensity of the creation. Event must be smart
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 2: given the incredible precision of the creation. Event must be
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 2: personal because they had to make the decision to. Create
• 2:28:05
  Speaker 2: must be caring because he's so carefully crafted a habitat
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 2: that we could exist. In and the scientific Principle vacam's
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 2: razor tells us there would be just one. Creator so
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 2: that's a description of The god of The bible right, there,
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 2: transcendent immaterial or, spirit, eternal, powerful, smart personal. Caring it's
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 2: a description to The god of The. Bible that discovery
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 2: of the universe having a, BEGINNING i think is probably
• 2:28:35
  Speaker 2: the single strongest argument from science That god must. Exist
• 2:28:40
  Speaker 2: the second area is, physics the fine tuning of the.
• 2:28:44
  Speaker 2: Universe the universe is finally tuned on a razor's edge
• 2:28:49
  Speaker 2: so that life can. Exist in other, words the numbers
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 2: that govern the operation of the, universe if you were
• 2:28:56
  Speaker 2: to change them just, slightly life would be. Impossible so
• 2:29:00
  Speaker 2: in other, is if you go out on a summer
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 2: night and look up at the, sky and instead of
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 2: seeing a sky full of, stars you saw fifty to
• 2:29:07
  Speaker 2: one hundred giant dials in the, sky and each dial
• 2:29:10
  Speaker 2: could be calibrated to one of trillions of possible. Settings
• 2:29:14
  Speaker 2: that is a picture of what modern physics tells. Us
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 2: our universe is like fifty to one hundred of these
• 2:29:21
  Speaker 2: dimensions of. Physics it have to be perfectly calibrated so.
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 2: Life i'll give you some. Examples we all know what gravity. Is,
• 2:29:27
  Speaker 2: right IF i drop my cell phone for the million,
• 2:29:30
  Speaker 2: times IF i drop the cell. Phone it's going to
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 2: hit the ground because of, gravity but gravity is finally
• 2:29:38
  Speaker 2: tuned so that life can. Exist how finely. Tuned picture
• 2:29:44
  Speaker 2: a ruler across the entire known universe fifteen billion light
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 2: years and it's broken down in one inch. Increments that
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 2: ruler represents the range along which the force of gravity
• 2:29:57
  Speaker 2: could have been calibrated anywhere along that, ruler but it
• 2:30:01
  Speaker 2: happens to be at the exact right place so that
• 2:30:03
  Speaker 2: life can. Exist what if we changed. It let's change
• 2:30:07
  Speaker 2: the force of gravity one inch compared to fifteen billion
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 2: light year width of the. Universe intelligent life is impossible
• 2:30:15
  Speaker 2: anywhere in the universe just with that single. Change my
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 2: favorite example is the ratio between the electromagnetic force and
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 2: the gravitational. Force it has to be finely tuned to
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 2: one part in ten, thousand, trillion trillion. Trillion so how
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 2: do we visualize? That that would be like taking a
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 2: continent the size Of North america and piling it with
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 2: dimes to the moon two hundred and thirty eight thousand
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 2: miles of. Dimes and then taking a billion continents the
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 2: size Of North america and piling them with dimes up
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 2: to the, moon and then taking one dime and spray
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 2: painting it, red and then mix among all the dimes
• 2:31:01
  Speaker 2: and the billion, continents going up two hundred and thirty
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 2: eight thousand. Miles and THEN i blindfold you AND i,
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 2: say you can dig in among all these billion, continents the,
• 2:31:12
  Speaker 2: dimes all the way to the, moon but you can
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 2: only reach in one time and pick, in pick out one.
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 2: Dime what are the odds you'd get the dime spray painted?
• 2:31:23
  Speaker 2: Red one chance in ten, thousand, trillion, trillion. Trillion so
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 2: it shows you how astronomical the odds are against. This
• 2:31:31
  Speaker 2: it cannot happen by. CHANCE i interview one physicist AND i,
• 2:31:35
  Speaker 2: said what are the? Odds these numbers are? Astronomical what
• 2:31:38
  Speaker 2: are the odds that could have just happened by? Chance he, said,
• 2:31:41
  Speaker 2: oh we physicists have a term for. THAT i, said,
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 2: oh what is?
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 1: It?
• 2:31:44
  Speaker 2: Said ain't going to happen the other area of, Science
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 2: and again this is discoveries just within the last, century for,
• 2:31:51
  Speaker 2: sure maybe within the last fifty eighty. Years IS? Dna
• 2:31:56
  Speaker 2: your body has what one hundred trillion sells in it
• 2:32:00
  Speaker 2: up any, cell and if you were to unravel the
• 2:32:03
  Speaker 2: double helix OF dna from one, cell it would be
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 2: six feet. Tall embedded in THAT dna is a four
• 2:32:11
  Speaker 2: letter chemical alphabet that spells out the precise assembly instructions
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 2: for every protein out of which you're. Made just Like
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: english uses a twenty six letter alphabet to spell out,
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: WORDS dna uses this four letter chemical alphabet to spell
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 2: out how to build, you how to build the proteins
• 2:32:31
  Speaker 2: that make. You, there there are more words in one
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 2: cell in your body than you would find in two
• 2:32:39
  Speaker 2: hundred years of The Sunday New York. Times, Wow where
• 2:32:43
  Speaker 2: does that come? From nature cannot produce, information it can produce.
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 2: PATTERNS i live In. Houston IF i go down To
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 2: galveston and the beach and the sand is wet from,
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 2: overnight and there's ripple marks in the, sand it would
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 2: be logical for me to say the waves made those
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 2: ripple marks in the, sand because nature can make. Patterns
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 2: but If i'm walking down the beach and in the wet,
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 2: SAND i See John Loves mary with a heart around
• 2:33:10
  Speaker 2: it and an arrow through, IT i wouldn't, Say, oh
• 2:33:12
  Speaker 2: the waves made.
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 1: That?
• 2:33:14
  Speaker 2: Why because that's, Information and without an, exception whenever we see,
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 2: information whether it's a painting on a, cave, wall whether
• 2:33:22
  Speaker 2: it's a computer, code whether it's a. Novel whenever we see,
• 2:33:26
  Speaker 2: information there is always an intelligence behind. It Stephen, meyer
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 2: with a PhD From Cambridge university On origin Of, life
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 2: interviewed him for my Book Is God? Real and he
• 2:33:40
  Speaker 2: looks at every alternative, explanation none of them hold. Water
• 2:33:44
  Speaker 2: the only explanation is there must be a creator who
• 2:33:48
  Speaker 2: in a sense signed every cell in our. Body he
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 2: left behind instructions, written instructions four letter chemical alphabet on
• 2:33:56
  Speaker 2: how to build. You AND i think you take those
• 2:33:59
  Speaker 2: three areas of science, together, cosmology, physics, biochemistry that make
• 2:34:04
  Speaker 2: they make a really strong case That god is. Real
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 2: that mind. Blowing it is six feet OF dna in
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 2: one cell in your body and you have what one
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 2: hundred trillion cells or something like. That it's it's just mind.
• 2:34:19
  Speaker 2: Bodling and to spell it out with, PRECISION i, mean it's.
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 1: JUST i.
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 2: Mean the more we study in, science when we learn
• 2:34:28
  Speaker 2: the universe has an, origin when we learn about the
• 2:34:31
  Speaker 2: fine tuning of the that's only in the last fifty
• 2:34:33
  Speaker 2: years or so we've understood the fine tuning of the,
• 2:34:35
  Speaker 2: universe and now we are understand THE dna more and.
• 2:34:38
  Speaker 2: More we look at all, that and we, go how
• 2:34:40
  Speaker 2: can anybody today deny that there is a supernatural? CREATOR
• 2:34:45
  Speaker 2: i don't. Know and then when you pair it with
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 2: the resurrection Of, jesus you, go, well Which god are
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 2: we talking? About now we Have jesus demonstrated through his
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 2: resurrection that he is who he flames came to, be
• 2:35:00
  Speaker 2: the unique son Of. God and now we have a
• 2:35:03
  Speaker 2: really strong case for not just the existence Of god
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 2: or for the truth Of. Christianity that is mind. Blowing
• 2:35:10
  Speaker 2: it's fun, stuff isn't.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 1: It it.
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 2: IS i mean one of the joys of my. LIFE
• 2:35:13
  Speaker 2: i get to sit down with all these great scholars
• 2:35:15
  Speaker 2: and just sit there for, hours sometimes, days and just
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 2: riddle them with questions like you do with folks and
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 2: and and you, know every once in a, WHILE i
• 2:35:25
  Speaker 2: just blow my.
• 2:35:25
  Speaker 1: Mind yeah it, Wow, welle let's take, uh let's take
• 2:35:34
  Speaker 1: a break real. Quick, sure when we come, back we'll
• 2:35:36
  Speaker 1: dig in a little bit on your new. Book.
• 2:35:38
  Speaker 3: Great WHEN i started, PODCASTING i had no idea how
• 2:35:44
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  Speaker 3: lee we're back from the. Break we're getting ready to
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  Speaker 3: dive into your new. Book, yeah and we're going to
• 2:39:33
  Speaker 3: talk about, miracles but we're just having a little side
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 3: conversation About Hugh.
• 2:39:38
  Speaker 1: Hefner, well and.
• 2:39:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah so it came up BECAUSE i saw on your
• 2:39:43
  Speaker 2: water bottle you gave me it says The Sean Ryan,
• 2:39:45
  Speaker 2: show which is really. Cool AND i was, SAYING i
• 2:39:49
  Speaker 2: usual to have a NATIONAL tv show Called faith Under,
• 2:39:51
  Speaker 2: fire AND i got an opportunity to Interview Hugh hefner
• 2:39:55
  Speaker 2: about his. Faith and so we go to The playboy
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 2: mansion and we're sitting. There course he's in his silk
• 2:40:01
  Speaker 2: pajamas and you, know usual, outfit and he had the
• 2:40:05
  Speaker 2: same kind of water. Bottles after that had The playboy
• 2:40:08
  Speaker 2: symbol on. It and SO i drinking from, this AND i,
• 2:40:11
  Speaker 2: said this isn't from the? Grotto is it this?
• 2:40:14
  Speaker 3: Water you are definitely not the typical. GUEST i would,
• 2:40:19
  Speaker 3: say he's hanging out at The playboy. Mansion, no was that.
• 2:40:22
  Speaker 3: Experience he, said you want a? TOUR i, Know, no
• 2:40:25
  Speaker 3: that's all.
• 2:40:25
  Speaker 2: Right i'm. Fine i'll just stay here in the living.
• 2:40:27
  Speaker 1: Room that's. Fine what did he say about his?
• 2:40:29
  Speaker 2: Faith it was very. Interesting he had kind of a deistic,
• 2:40:34
  Speaker 2: faith in other, words faith about a, vague all powerful
• 2:40:38
  Speaker 2: something kind of a, deal but Not jesus and Not.
• 2:40:42
  Speaker 2: Christianity he, said it's a little too childlike for, me and.
• 2:40:47
  Speaker 1: A little too.
• 2:40:47
  Speaker 2: Childlike, yeah. Yeah and so it's obvious why because he
• 2:40:52
  Speaker 2: was living a very moral, life and if he were
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 2: to put his trust In, jesus all of a, sudden
• 2:40:58
  Speaker 2: that would be out the. Window so it's easier to
• 2:41:01
  Speaker 2: put your trust in a deistic general idea of a
• 2:41:03
  Speaker 2: god who has no demands on, you who has no
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 2: moral authority in your. Life but, then after the cameras turned,
• 2:41:10
  Speaker 2: OFF i, SAID i want to give you a, gift
• 2:41:12
  Speaker 2: AND i gave him a copy of my Book The
• 2:41:14
  Speaker 2: case For christ and he was. Fascinated he said, oh
• 2:41:17
  Speaker 2: and he opened it up and he, said any real
• 2:41:21
  Speaker 2: evidence For? CHRISTIANITY i said, YEAH i SAID i have
• 2:41:25
  Speaker 2: you ever looked in the? Resurrection he said. NO i, said,
• 2:41:27
  Speaker 2: actually there's really good evidence of, resurrections, really and he
• 2:41:31
  Speaker 2: was very interested and we had a great. CONVERSATION i
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 2: showed him the. EVIDENCE i went through it with him
• 2:41:36
  Speaker 2: and gave it to, him and he sent Me christmas
• 2:41:38
  Speaker 2: cards AND i try to follow up with him a few,
• 2:41:40
  Speaker 2: times BUT i don't THINK i had.
• 2:41:42
  Speaker 1: Much what does A christmas card From Hugh hefner look?
• 2:41:45
  Speaker 2: Like it was not pop?
• 2:41:49
  Speaker 1: Up SO.
• 2:41:52
  Speaker 3: I, Mean i'm just envisioning the big family, photo you.
• 2:41:55
  Speaker 2: Know let's put this. WAY i THINK i got the
• 2:41:57
  Speaker 2: g rated. Version. Nice i'm sure there were other ones
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 2: as it went.
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 1: Out i'm surprised they have.
• 2:42:01
  Speaker 2: One, yeah, yeah well that's. True so, anyway that was
• 2:42:06
  Speaker 2: a Bizarre that's.
• 2:42:07
  Speaker 1: Pretty interesting that you went there to.
• 2:42:09
  Speaker 2: Interview but it shows that so many people don't take
• 2:42:11
  Speaker 2: the time to really ask the kind of questions you've been,
• 2:42:13
  Speaker 2: asking which, is how do you know this? Stuff what
• 2:42:15
  Speaker 2: evidence is? There and you, know so many people just
• 2:42:17
  Speaker 2: kind of go through life and never scratch below the
• 2:42:20
  Speaker 2: surface to try to determine could this be.
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 1: TRUE i think people are scared to ask questions maybe that's, true,
• 2:42:26
  Speaker 1: yeah you, know or or. Embarrassed, yeah but uh. Yeah
• 2:42:29
  Speaker 1: AND i THINK i think.
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 3: A lot of people are conditioned to think that questioning
• 2:42:34
  Speaker 3: can be can be rude and or or not. Welcomed and,
• 2:42:41
  Speaker 3: YEAH i MEAN i just think that you should you
• 2:42:45
  Speaker 3: should be able to question. Everything, YEAH i feel like
• 2:42:48
  Speaker 3: they've been conditioned. TO i don't, know we kind, of you,
• 2:42:52
  Speaker 3: know we've seen a lot the past couple of years
• 2:42:55
  Speaker 3: like why are you asking?
• 2:42:56
  Speaker 1: Questions that's?
• 2:42:57
  Speaker 3: True you, know and it's like it's just a question
• 2:42:59
  Speaker 3: where to get it off That i'm asking a?
• 2:43:02
  Speaker 2: Question but you, know, Interestingly john The, baptist when he
• 2:43:08
  Speaker 2: got thrown in, prison started to ask questions About. God
• 2:43:12
  Speaker 2: he wanted to, know Is jesus really the one we've
• 2:43:15
  Speaker 2: been waiting for we'd to wait for some Other. Messiah
• 2:43:18
  Speaker 2: and this was a guy that should have known for
• 2:43:22
  Speaker 2: sure That jesus was who he claimed to. Be but
• 2:43:24
  Speaker 2: he had. Questions but what did he? Do he, Investigated
• 2:43:26
  Speaker 2: he got a couple of friends together said go track
• 2:43:28
  Speaker 2: Down jesus and ask him point, Blank are you the
• 2:43:31
  Speaker 2: one we've been waiting. For we'd to wait for somebody.
• 2:43:33
  Speaker 2: Else so they tracked Down. Jesus they ask, him here's the.
• 2:43:35
  Speaker 2: Deal Did jesus get? Mad, no he didn't, Say, oh
• 2:43:38
  Speaker 2: Dare john of all people have the temerity to express
• 2:43:41
  Speaker 2: a hesitation about my? Identity now he, said, look go
• 2:43:44
  Speaker 2: back To john and tell him what you have seen and.
• 2:43:47
  Speaker 2: Heard the blind received, site the lame, walk those who
• 2:43:49
  Speaker 2: have leprosy are. Cured the deaf here the dead or,
• 2:43:52
  Speaker 2: raysed and the good news is preached to the. Poor
• 2:43:54
  Speaker 2: now go tell him about the evidence that you've seen
• 2:43:57
  Speaker 2: that convinces you THAT i am WHO i claim to. Be,
• 2:44:00
  Speaker 2: so like you, said there's nothing wrong with. Questions jesus
• 2:44:03
  Speaker 2: didn't get mad when you ask. Questions it's not like
• 2:44:06
  Speaker 2: you Surprised. God and he, SAYS i can't believe he
• 2:44:08
  Speaker 2: asked that. Question you Know god. Knows, Yeah but isn't
• 2:44:12
  Speaker 2: it true? Though he's a lot of people hesitate to
• 2:44:14
  Speaker 2: engage ask. QUESTIONS i don't want to look. Dumb maybe
• 2:44:17
  Speaker 2: or they don't want TO i don't know what it,
• 2:44:19
  Speaker 2: is but they think they're going to Offend god in some.
• 2:44:21
  Speaker 2: Way But jesus didn't get mad At. John it was
• 2:44:24
  Speaker 2: after this incident That jesus got up and, said among
• 2:44:26
  Speaker 2: those born of, women there's no one greater Than. John,
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 2: john the guy who asked a.
• 2:44:30
  Speaker 1: Question you, KNOW i wanted to ask you a, question
• 2:44:35
  Speaker 1: but SOMETIMES i can't figure out the RIGHT i can't
• 2:44:38
  Speaker 1: figure out how to articulate. IT i, asked we have.
• 2:44:42
  Speaker 2: We.
• 2:44:42
  Speaker 1: HAD i don't go to church.
• 2:44:44
  Speaker 3: Anymore ACTUALLY i did go TO i went To mass
• 2:44:48
  Speaker 3: AFTER i Interviewed father real for the first time in
• 2:44:51
  Speaker 3: a really long, time but, decades and actually not.
• 2:44:58
  Speaker 1: Decades but so in, this in This bible study that.
• 2:45:04
  Speaker 3: We, HAD i AND i could tell it got people
• 2:45:07
  Speaker 3: a little on. Edge probably maybe articulated it, wrong BUT
• 2:45:10
  Speaker 3: i was talking about why Doesn't god make himself more?
• 2:45:16
  Speaker 3: Visible and And i'll probably butcher, this And i'm sure
• 2:45:22
  Speaker 3: i'll Get i'll get all kinds of shift from from
• 2:45:26
  Speaker 3: the internet people for asking, This but you, KNOW i
• 2:45:31
  Speaker 3: basically WHAT i, was WHAT i was trying to get,
• 2:45:34
  Speaker 3: at Is god can be hard to. FIND i DON'T
• 2:45:40
  Speaker 3: i think That god hid me can be hard to.
• 2:45:43
  Speaker 3: Find he's. HE i don't know if elusive is the right.
• 2:45:46
  Speaker 3: Word but it's not LIKE i can call his name
• 2:45:49
  Speaker 3: and he shows up and helps me, immediately and.
• 2:45:53
  Speaker 1: He is the. Father, Yeah, Well i'm a.
• 2:45:56
  Speaker 3: Father and if my son is calling my name and
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 3: needs help and he's, hurt or he needs, direction or
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 3: he needs, guidance, advice anything comforting, protection AND i don't show,
• 2:46:11
  Speaker 3: Up i'm labeled as shit?
• 2:46:14
  Speaker 1: Father? Right and so why Is god so hard to?
• 2:46:22
  Speaker 1: Find at? Times but he is considered the perfect father
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 1: of all, Fathers but.
• 2:46:31
  Speaker 3: Sometimes he's nowhere to be, found or at least it
• 2:46:34
  Speaker 3: appears that he's no where to be.
• 2:46:36
  Speaker 2: Found it's a great. QUESTION i have a whole chapter
• 2:46:38
  Speaker 2: of that in my, Book Is God. Real SO i
• 2:46:41
  Speaker 2: think the two biggest questions that people ask these days
• 2:46:44
  Speaker 2: are number, one why would a Loving god allow? Suffering
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 2: and number, two why Is god so? Hidden and SO
• 2:46:50
  Speaker 2: i did a whole chapter in that, Book He's God,
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 2: real addressing that. Question and there's several elements to. THAT
• 2:46:58
  Speaker 2: i interviewed a guy who had been a aspire to
• 2:47:01
  Speaker 2: be a baseball player professional baseball, player is a theologian
• 2:47:04
  Speaker 2: now and he was a, catcher and he, SAID i
• 2:47:07
  Speaker 2: picture this question like a picture and a. Catcher he,
• 2:47:11
  Speaker 2: Said jesus is the picture or the. Catcher where does
• 2:47:16
  Speaker 2: the problem lie In jesus being quote unquote hidden Or
• 2:47:20
  Speaker 2: god being so? Hidden where's does a problem lie in
• 2:47:23
  Speaker 2: the picture or the? Catcher and he said, theologically based
• 2:47:28
  Speaker 2: on what The bible, teaches the problem lies with the,
• 2:47:32
  Speaker 2: catcher lies with. Us it says In romans, one verse
• 2:47:35
  Speaker 2: twenty that based on what we see in, nature that
• 2:47:40
  Speaker 2: the existence Of god is, indisputable that anyone who honestly
• 2:47:45
  Speaker 2: looks at nature would walk away saying without. Excuse you,
• 2:47:52
  Speaker 2: know they would have no excuse for, saying you, know
• 2:47:54
  Speaker 2: not Finding. God so his first, point, well is the
• 2:48:00
  Speaker 2: real problem lies with. Us what The bible says is
• 2:48:03
  Speaker 2: that we tend to suppress the. Evidence why because we
• 2:48:06
  Speaker 2: want to Be God's we want to live our own.
• 2:48:08
  Speaker 2: Lives we don't want to be told how to. Live
• 2:48:09
  Speaker 2: we want to do what we want to do and
• 2:48:11
  Speaker 2: live like we want to live in dog. GONE i
• 2:48:13
  Speaker 2: like getting drunk and dog. Gone If god's going to
• 2:48:16
  Speaker 2: tell me not to do, That i'm not so SURE
• 2:48:17
  Speaker 2: i want to know much about. Him The greek language
• 2:48:23
  Speaker 2: uses the imagery of a. Pedal it's like when the
• 2:48:26
  Speaker 2: evidence Of god begins to become a parent to. You
• 2:48:30
  Speaker 2: sometimes we push down the, pedal we suppress, it we
• 2:48:33
  Speaker 2: suppress the, evidence and we turn the other. Way so
• 2:48:35
  Speaker 2: part of the problem is on us that we were
• 2:48:38
  Speaker 2: not looking For. God we don't really want to Find.
• 2:48:40
  Speaker 2: God we want to live the way we want to.
• 2:48:41
  Speaker 2: Live but, secondly there have been times in history Where
• 2:48:46
  Speaker 2: god has been especially. Evident for, instance the party of
• 2:48:51
  Speaker 2: The Red, sea the manna that comes down From heaven
• 2:48:55
  Speaker 2: that sustained The israelites in the. Desert God god actions
• 2:49:01
  Speaker 2: in the world were so obvious back. Then what? Happened
• 2:49:06
  Speaker 2: did they become more? Devout, no they fell into apostasy.
• 2:49:11
  Speaker 2: Again so when we rebellion Against, god you know they're
• 2:49:17
  Speaker 2: worshiping golden calves and things like. That they turned their
• 2:49:21
  Speaker 2: back Against god even though he had made his existence
• 2:49:25
  Speaker 2: obvious to. Anyone i'm parting The Red sea for goodness,
• 2:49:28
  Speaker 2: Sake i'm providing man from heavens you can live for goodness.
• 2:49:31
  Speaker 2: Sake and yet their response is to turn their back
• 2:49:36
  Speaker 2: and go the other. Way so there's no guarantee that
• 2:49:40
  Speaker 2: If god were to write in the Sky i'm here
• 2:49:45
  Speaker 2: that we would, respond, because based on the track record of,
• 2:49:48
  Speaker 2: humans last time he made himself so, obvious we walked
• 2:49:51
  Speaker 2: the other. Way and if he did do, that if
• 2:49:54
  Speaker 2: he did in the, Sky i'm. HERE i could imagine
• 2:49:57
  Speaker 2: all the atheist websites talking, About, yeah that's a natural
• 2:50:00
  Speaker 2: phenomenon that is precipitated by too much moisture in the.
• 2:50:05
  Speaker 2: Atmosphere and it's you, KNOW i, mean they would come
• 2:50:08
  Speaker 2: up with any explanation other Than god is real And
• 2:50:12
  Speaker 2: god is. Here they have a they have an interest
• 2:50:16
  Speaker 2: in not finding, him, so you, Know and the other
• 2:50:19
  Speaker 2: THING i would say, is you, know The bible says
• 2:50:21
  Speaker 2: knock and you'll. Find The bible says seek and you'll.
• 2:50:24
  Speaker 2: Find in The New Testament, hebrews it says those who
• 2:50:28
  Speaker 2: sincerely Seek god will find. Him in The Old Testament,
• 2:50:32
  Speaker 2: jeremiah it says that those who Seek god will find.
• 2:50:37
  Speaker 2: Him so the fact that someone hasn't Found god yet
• 2:50:42
  Speaker 2: does not mean they won't find. Him in, fact The
• 2:50:45
  Speaker 2: bible suggest keep, knocking keep, seeking and there might be
• 2:50:49
  Speaker 2: some lessons along the way That god wants to teach
• 2:50:51
  Speaker 2: you before you come to meet, Him lessons about, perseverance
• 2:50:59
  Speaker 2: lessons about. Whatever that could be a. Possibility but the
• 2:51:03
  Speaker 2: fact that someone has not yet Found god does not
• 2:51:07
  Speaker 2: mean they will not Find. God and AS i said,
• 2:51:10
  Speaker 2: BEFORE i think anyone anywhere in any culture who calls
• 2:51:13
  Speaker 2: out to The One True god and seeks, Him god
• 2:51:17
  Speaker 2: will provide a way of making himself known to them
• 2:51:20
  Speaker 2: and his message known to. THEM i believe, that And
• 2:51:23
  Speaker 2: i've seen miraculous ways in which he's done. That oh,
• 2:51:30
  Speaker 2: YEAH i. MEAN i mentioned one earlier about the guy
• 2:51:33
  Speaker 2: In india who was brought up by gurus who's realized
• 2:51:39
  Speaker 2: That hinduism had too many contradictions to be, true and
• 2:51:42
  Speaker 2: at age, seventeen he called, out And, god if you're,
• 2:51:44
  Speaker 2: REAL i want to know. YOU i don't. Understand this
• 2:51:48
  Speaker 2: is not making. SENSE i Know i've messed. UP i
• 2:51:52
  Speaker 2: want to be. FORGIVEN i want to you. Know And
• 2:51:55
  Speaker 2: god brings against the laws of the land missionaries to
• 2:51:59
  Speaker 2: him who shared The god with. Him he became A,
• 2:52:01
  Speaker 2: christian later immigrated to The United states and we became.
• 2:52:03
  Speaker 2: Friends so there's an. Example or we talked earlier about
• 2:52:07
  Speaker 2: dreams That god would bring to in close countries in
• 2:52:11
  Speaker 2: The muslim, world to People jesus. Dreams so there are
• 2:52:15
  Speaker 2: ways in Which JESUS i, believe makes himself more known
• 2:52:18
  Speaker 2: at certain. Times BUT i think for most people who
• 2:52:22
  Speaker 2: Say why Doesn't god make himself more? Known what else
• 2:52:26
  Speaker 2: do you want to? Know you? Know you, Know i've
• 2:52:29
  Speaker 2: got an eight hundred thousand word book called The bible
• 2:52:31
  Speaker 2: that lays out just about everything you need to. Know
• 2:52:34
  Speaker 2: have you looked at? It that kind of? Thing you? Know?
• 2:52:36
  Speaker 2: YEAH i, mean obviously we'd like him all to sit
• 2:52:39
  Speaker 2: here and spend time with, it wouldn't? We and we
• 2:52:42
  Speaker 2: could ask him all these questions and he did much
• 2:52:44
  Speaker 2: better answers THAN i. Would and we can do that in.
• 2:52:47
  Speaker 2: Heaven But he has given us. Enough he's given us
• 2:52:51
  Speaker 2: enough to act. On and when we do act on.
• 2:52:55
  Speaker 2: That what's Interesting when we do take a step of
• 2:52:58
  Speaker 2: faith in the same, direction the evidence is, pointing which
• 2:53:01
  Speaker 2: is logical and rational to do with the evidence for the,
• 2:53:04
  Speaker 2: resurrection for the existence Of, god from, cosmology from, physics from,
• 2:53:08
  Speaker 2: biochemistry these streams of evidence that are flowing in a.
• 2:53:12
  Speaker 2: Direction if we respond to that by taking a step
• 2:53:15
  Speaker 2: of faith in the same direction the evidence is pointing
• 2:53:18
  Speaker 2: and receive this free gift of forgiveness Through christ and
• 2:53:21
  Speaker 2: become a follower of, his he becomes more parent to
• 2:53:26
  Speaker 2: us because now as we read The bible as, believers
• 2:53:31
  Speaker 2: it takes on a whole new dimension am aspect to
• 2:53:38
  Speaker 2: it that brings it home more vividly to us than
• 2:53:42
  Speaker 2: when we were not a. Believer SO i think The
• 2:53:45
  Speaker 2: Holy spirit as he takes residence in us as followers Of.
• 2:53:48
  Speaker 2: Christ you, know WHEN i pray To, GOD i sense
• 2:53:53
  Speaker 2: his presence in my life stronger today THAN i did
• 2:53:56
  Speaker 2: twenty years. Ago doesn't MEAN i can have lunch with,
• 2:53:59
  Speaker 2: him but it means that there are times in my
• 2:54:02
  Speaker 2: life Where he has guided, me where he has closed doors,
• 2:54:06
  Speaker 2: that Thank, GOD i didn't go. Through but he closed
• 2:54:09
  Speaker 2: those doors AND i didn't know it at the. Time,
• 2:54:10
  Speaker 2: why BUT i look back and, say thank You lord
• 2:54:13
  Speaker 2: for not letting me go down that path BECAUSE i
• 2:54:15
  Speaker 2: would have been a wrong. Path AND i see his
• 2:54:17
  Speaker 2: evidence in my life of the guidings of The Holy,
• 2:54:20
  Speaker 2: spirit the leadings that he. Gives, SO i, mean you,
• 2:54:26
  Speaker 2: know there's a whole, chapter AND i vote for those
• 2:54:27
  Speaker 2: that are really. Interested but it is a legitimate, question
• 2:54:32
  Speaker 2: and a lot of people are asking it these. Days
• 2:54:34
  Speaker 2: it's especially among young.
• 2:54:35
  Speaker 1: People which book is that an out of the?
• 2:54:41
  Speaker 2: News?
• 2:54:41
  Speaker 1: God?
• 2:54:41
  Speaker 3: Real, yeah, OKAY i will definitely check that, out thank. You,
• 2:54:46
  Speaker 3: yeah that's just you, know it's, UH i. Could WHEN
• 2:54:49
  Speaker 3: i first asked the, QUESTION i could see and this
• 2:54:52
  Speaker 3: is a group of very, trusted open minded, people and
• 2:54:59
  Speaker 3: that ONE i could definitely see sparked a little.
• 2:55:03
  Speaker 2: Something it's a profound, question.
• 2:55:05
  Speaker 1: And it was you, know it kind of began with you, know,
• 2:55:10
  Speaker 1: yeah he, Is he's always you.
• 2:55:11
  Speaker 3: Know i'm, like, YEAH i get. THAT i totally get.
• 2:55:14
  Speaker 3: That but When i'm When i'm twelve years, old it's
• 2:55:19
  Speaker 3: not working like, that you, Know and and and it's
• 2:55:22
  Speaker 3: just but that makes, sense thank.
• 2:55:25
  Speaker 1: You.
• 2:55:25
  Speaker 3: Sure so we want to get into, UH i really
• 2:55:31
  Speaker 3: want to go into spiritual warfare with. You but this
• 2:55:34
  Speaker 3: is this Is, christmas so seeing the. Supernatural and there's
• 2:55:39
  Speaker 3: a section in here that you had that you had
• 2:55:42
  Speaker 3: talked about.
• 2:55:44
  Speaker 1: Miracles, yeah and so let's keep.
• 2:55:48
  Speaker 2: It miracles ARE i mean to, me it's one of
• 2:55:51
  Speaker 2: the most fascinating topics Where god will intervene in our
• 2:55:56
  Speaker 2: world in a way that is. UNMISTAKABLY a miracle is
• 2:56:03
  Speaker 2: an event brought about by the power Of god that
• 2:56:05
  Speaker 2: is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature
• 2:56:09
  Speaker 2: for the purpose of showing That god has acted in.
• 2:56:12
  Speaker 2: History so he's. Intervening you, KNOW a lot of people, said,
• 2:56:15
  Speaker 2: well miracles are not. Possible this is WHAT i used
• 2:56:17
  Speaker 2: to think WHEN i was an. Atheist miracles can't. Happen
• 2:56:21
  Speaker 2: why because they violate the laws of. Nature he can't
• 2:56:24
  Speaker 2: violate the laws of. Nature David, hume the famous atheist From.
• 2:56:29
  Speaker 2: Scotland that was his. Argument, well you're misunderstanding what a miracle.
• 2:56:33
  Speaker 2: Is IF i take this cell phone AND i drop,
• 2:56:36
  Speaker 2: it the law of gravity says is going to hit the.
• 2:56:38
  Speaker 2: Ground but IF i drop his cell phone and you
• 2:56:41
  Speaker 2: reach in and grab it before it hits the, Ground
• 2:56:43
  Speaker 2: i'm not. Violating you're not violating the law of. Gravity
• 2:56:47
  Speaker 2: you're not overturning the law of. Gravity you're. Intervening and
• 2:56:51
  Speaker 2: If god did create the, universe then of course he
• 2:56:55
  Speaker 2: can intervene at his will in those laws that he himself.
• 2:57:01
  Speaker 2: Created it's an. Intervention he's not overturning. Anything it's just an.
• 2:57:05
  Speaker 2: Intervention SO i began to look at a couple of.
• 2:57:09
  Speaker 2: Questions how common our miracle claims? Really SO i hired
• 2:57:13
  Speaker 2: a public opinions company to do a scientific poll Of american,
• 2:57:17
  Speaker 2: adults AND i asked the, question have you ever had,
• 2:57:21
  Speaker 2: one at least one experience in your life that you
• 2:57:25
  Speaker 2: can only explain as a miracle Of, god and thirty
• 2:57:29
  Speaker 2: eight percent Of american adults said, Yes so four out
• 2:57:33
  Speaker 2: of ten said. Yes, now let's say hypothetically that ninety
• 2:57:38
  Speaker 2: nine percent of them are. Wrong they think it was a,
• 2:57:40
  Speaker 2: miracle it was just a big. Coincidence let's wipe out
• 2:57:43
  Speaker 2: ninety nine. Percent that would still mean a million miracles
• 2:57:48
  Speaker 2: just in The United. States so, MIRACLES i think are
• 2:57:51
  Speaker 2: more common than we. Think and what's interesting is they.
• 2:57:55
  Speaker 2: Cluster they're not evenly distributed around the, planet where the
• 2:57:59
  Speaker 2: gospel is just breaking in places Like, Mozambique, China, brazil
• 2:58:04
  Speaker 2: that's where we see the miraculous taking. Place one scholar
• 2:58:08
  Speaker 2: said to, me ninety percent of the growth of the
• 2:58:11
  Speaker 2: church In china is because someone themselves has had a
• 2:58:16
  Speaker 2: miracle take, place a, healing or they know someone who
• 2:58:19
  Speaker 2: has happened To ninety percent of that is the church
• 2:58:21
  Speaker 2: growth In. China So god tends to intervene in those
• 2:58:25
  Speaker 2: places where the gospel and often there's societies that don't
• 2:58:28
  Speaker 2: Have bibles or, anything but they'll respond to the supernatural that.
• 2:58:32
  Speaker 2: Way so how do we know that it's. REAL i
• 2:58:36
  Speaker 2: began looking into this And SEAN i found case studies
• 2:58:40
  Speaker 2: published in medical. Journals i'll describe one of them for.
• 2:58:45
  Speaker 2: YOU a woman blind blind for twelve. Years she had
• 2:58:50
  Speaker 2: juvenile macular, degeneration which is an incurable. Condition she learned
• 2:58:55
  Speaker 2: she went to a school for the. Blind she learned
• 2:58:57
  Speaker 2: how to Read. Braille she walked with A i. Came
• 2:59:01
  Speaker 2: she married a, Pastor baptist. Pastor one, night they're getting
• 2:59:05
  Speaker 2: ready for, bed and he comes up to her with
• 2:59:08
  Speaker 2: tears in his, eyes and he puts his hand on
• 2:59:10
  Speaker 2: her shoulder and he begins to, pray and he, Says,
• 2:59:13
  Speaker 2: GOD i know you could heal. HER i know you
• 2:59:17
  Speaker 2: could heal her right. Now, GOD i, PRAY i ask
• 2:59:19
  Speaker 2: for right now tonight he would heal my wife of her.
• 2:59:23
  Speaker 2: Blindness and she opened her eyes to perfect, eyesight saw
• 2:59:27
  Speaker 2: her husband for the first. Time she, SAID i was,
• 2:59:30
  Speaker 2: blind and NOW i. See it's a miracle she has
• 2:59:34
  Speaker 2: been now she has had perfect eyesight for forty seven.
• 2:59:37
  Speaker 2: Years that happened forty seven years, ago been published in
• 2:59:40
  Speaker 2: A four researchers researched, it published it as a case
• 2:59:44
  Speaker 2: study in a secular medical. Journal so you, Know so
• 2:59:52
  Speaker 2: there's a PhD From. Harvard she's a professor At Indiana,
• 2:59:57
  Speaker 2: University Secular university's and stuff like. This she, says wait a,
• 3:00:01
  Speaker 2: Minute i'm going to test. It let's go To mozambique
• 3:00:06
  Speaker 2: where there's supposedly an outbreak of, miracles and she brings
• 3:00:10
  Speaker 2: a team. In they go into the villages and they,
• 3:00:13
  Speaker 2: say bring us all your death and all your Blind
• 3:00:17
  Speaker 2: so they bring people are, deaf, blind or severely handicapped
• 3:00:20
  Speaker 2: in those, areas and they tested them, scientifically what is
• 3:00:24
  Speaker 2: your level of? Vision what is your level of? Hearing
• 3:00:26
  Speaker 2: they did testing and they determined could you see at?
• 3:00:30
  Speaker 2: All or they got it. Down then they were immediately
• 3:00:34
  Speaker 2: prayed for in the name Of jesus by people who
• 3:00:36
  Speaker 2: tend to have a track record Or god using them in.
• 3:00:38
  Speaker 2: Healings and then immediately after that they were tested again,
• 3:00:43
  Speaker 2: scientifically has your vision? Changed has your hearing level? Changed
• 3:00:47
  Speaker 2: and guess what they? Found virtually everyone improved to one
• 3:00:50
  Speaker 2: degree or the. Other in, fact the average improvement in
• 3:00:53
  Speaker 2: visual acuity was. Tenfold one woman Named, martine when they
• 3:00:58
  Speaker 2: first met or could not hear the equivalent of a
• 3:01:00
  Speaker 2: jackhammer next to. Her after ten minutes of prayer in
• 3:01:03
  Speaker 2: the name Of, jesus she could hear normal. Conversations so
• 3:01:07
  Speaker 2: they're thinking something's going on. Here so they, said let's
• 3:01:09
  Speaker 2: test it somewhere. Else so they went To brazil where
• 3:01:12
  Speaker 2: the gospel is breaking. In they did the same, test
• 3:01:15
  Speaker 2: they got the same. Results this was a scientific study
• 3:01:20
  Speaker 2: published in a peer, reviewed secular scientific medical, journal The
• 3:01:24
  Speaker 2: Southern Medical, journal highly respected medical. Journal AND i interviewed
• 3:01:29
  Speaker 2: from my Book seeing The, supernatural the woman PhD that did.
• 3:01:33
  Speaker 2: THIS i, said what do you make of? This and she, said,
• 3:01:36
  Speaker 2: well she, said this is not some televangelist going in
• 3:01:41
  Speaker 2: and trying to create an atmosphere of emotion and tricking
• 3:01:45
  Speaker 2: people and thinking they're feeling. Better this isn't a, Trickery
• 3:01:49
  Speaker 2: it isn't. Fraud she. Said ALL i can say is
• 3:01:53
  Speaker 2: something's going, on and she's. RIGHT i think it's something. Miraculous.
• 3:01:57
  Speaker 2: WOW i interviewed a woman AND i do the interview
• 3:02:00
  Speaker 2: in the. Book her name Was. Barbara barbara was diagnosed
• 3:02:05
  Speaker 2: with multiple sclerosis as a teenager at The Mayo. Clinic
• 3:02:08
  Speaker 2: have all their medical records have multiple witnesses to. This
• 3:02:13
  Speaker 2: so she goes to male. Clinic she's multiple. Sclerosis she
• 3:02:16
  Speaker 2: began deteriorating rapidly over sixteen years worse and worse and
• 3:02:21
  Speaker 2: worse and, worse hospitalized repeatedly with lung collapses and. Things,
• 3:02:26
  Speaker 2: finally her doctors and her parents got together and, said
• 3:02:28
  Speaker 2: you know, what next time she gets, pneumonia let's just
• 3:02:32
  Speaker 2: let her. DIE i, mean this is. Ridiculous she's just
• 3:02:35
  Speaker 2: gonna suffer this. Way let's just let her. Die so
• 3:02:38
  Speaker 2: she's in. Hospice one a lung is, collapsed one alung
• 3:02:42
  Speaker 2: is a fifty. Percent she's. Blind all she can see are,
• 3:02:46
  Speaker 2: shapes gray. Shapes she has a tube in her throat
• 3:02:51
  Speaker 2: so she can, breathe and goes to oxygen canisters in
• 3:02:54
  Speaker 2: her garage so she could be kept alive because she
• 3:02:56
  Speaker 2: couldn't breathe on her. Own she had lost all her muscle,
• 3:03:02
  Speaker 2: tone hadn't walked in seven. Years she lost all her muscle.
• 3:03:05
  Speaker 2: Tone her fingers were so curled up that her fingers
• 3:03:08
  Speaker 2: were touching her, wrists and her toes were extended like.
• 3:03:12
  Speaker 2: This she couldn't wear, slippers and she lost control of
• 3:03:17
  Speaker 2: her bowel and her. Urination so she's. Dying she's in
• 3:03:22
  Speaker 2: her bed at, home and somebody called IN, wnbi which
• 3:03:26
  Speaker 2: is The christian radio station In, chicago and, said, Hey barbara's.
• 3:03:31
  Speaker 2: Dying this, woman could someone pray for? Her just ask
• 3:03:35
  Speaker 2: your audience pray for what we documented the four hundred
• 3:03:38
  Speaker 2: and fifty people began praying For barbara because we know
• 3:03:41
  Speaker 2: because they wrote letters To barbara, Saying i'm praying for.
• 3:03:43
  Speaker 2: You Pentecost sunday, comes she's got two or three of
• 3:03:48
  Speaker 2: her friends there who were reading these letters and people
• 3:03:51
  Speaker 2: are praying for, it reading them To, barbara and out of,
• 3:03:54
  Speaker 2: nowhere from the corner of the room where there's nobody,
• 3:03:57
  Speaker 2: sitting she hears the voice Of god, saying get, up
• 3:04:01
  Speaker 2: my child and. Walk so she's. Stunned these her friends in.
• 3:04:07
  Speaker 2: Here she, said go get my, parents and she rips
• 3:04:12
  Speaker 2: the tube from her throat and she jumps out of.
• 3:04:15
  Speaker 2: Bed SO i When i'm, INTERVIEWING i, said what's the
• 3:04:18
  Speaker 2: first thing you? Noticed she, Said, LEE i jumped out of.
• 3:04:21
  Speaker 2: Bed the first THING i Noticed my feet were flat
• 3:04:23
  Speaker 2: on the. Ground they've been, curled they've been extended for
• 3:04:27
  Speaker 2: a couple of. Years and THEN i looked at my
• 3:04:30
  Speaker 2: hands had opened. Up and then she said the third
• 3:04:34
  Speaker 2: THING i NOTICED i could, See she, said do you
• 3:04:38
  Speaker 2: think that'd be the first Thing i'd? Noticed it was
• 3:04:39
  Speaker 2: actually the third THING i. Noticed and her mother comes
• 3:04:44
  Speaker 2: running in and grabs her calves and, said your muscle
• 3:04:47
  Speaker 2: tone has. Returned her muscles tone returned to her. Legs
• 3:04:51
  Speaker 2: her father came in and started waltzing around the room with.
• 3:04:54
  Speaker 2: Her it Was sunday, Night Pentecost, sunday and they went
• 3:04:58
  Speaker 2: to A wesleyan church and In, illinois and they, said
• 3:05:01
  Speaker 2: let's go to church and tell people there's a service that.
• 3:05:03
  Speaker 2: Night so they came to the service and as they came,
• 3:05:06
  Speaker 2: in the pastor was upfront and he, say does anybody
• 3:05:08
  Speaker 2: have any? Announcements barbara comes walking down the main. Aisle,
• 3:05:13
  Speaker 2: well nobody had Seen barbara walk in seven. Years they
• 3:05:16
  Speaker 2: all knew she was on the verge of. Dying and
• 3:05:18
  Speaker 2: the whole place exploded with people, singing amazing. GRACE i
• 3:05:22
  Speaker 2: once was, blind and NOW i see she was instantaneously
• 3:05:28
  Speaker 2: completely totally healed of multiple sclerosis in that instant By, god,
• 3:05:33
  Speaker 2: wow totally. Healed she had two main. Doctors one doctor
• 3:05:37
  Speaker 2: she went to see. Him That. Monday she went to
• 3:05:39
  Speaker 2: see her doctor and he said, later he, said WHEN
• 3:05:42
  Speaker 2: i saw her walking down the, CORRIDOR i thought this
• 3:05:44
  Speaker 2: must be a. Ghost she must have, died because this is.
• 3:05:47
  Speaker 2: Impossible this is medically. Impossible two of her doctors wrote
• 3:05:51
  Speaker 2: books about it because they said, this there is no
• 3:05:53
  Speaker 2: medical explanation for. THIS i got to, Know. Barbara we
• 3:05:56
  Speaker 2: have multiple eyewitness. Eyewitnesses we've got the doctors who knew
• 3:06:00
  Speaker 2: her and treated her and wrote books about. It we've
• 3:06:02
  Speaker 2: got records from The Mayo. Clinic she ended up marrying
• 3:06:06
  Speaker 2: a pastor and had a little church In, Fredericksburg. Virginia,
• 3:06:12
  Speaker 2: wow and so you, go what do you do with
• 3:06:14
  Speaker 2: something like? That what do you do with the guy
• 3:06:17
  Speaker 2: who was born with gastro, paresis which is a paralysis
• 3:06:22
  Speaker 2: of his stomach, muscles and as an, infant he's. Vomiting
• 3:06:27
  Speaker 2: he can't keep down, food and they realized this is
• 3:06:30
  Speaker 2: an incurable. Condition we have to insert tubes into him
• 3:06:34
  Speaker 2: so the food can go from his stomach to his.
• 3:06:36
  Speaker 2: Intestine and he had to live with that for sixteen
• 3:06:39
  Speaker 2: years until one day his parents brought into a church
• 3:06:44
  Speaker 2: and the pastor came up and put his hand on
• 3:06:46
  Speaker 2: his shoulder and prayed for his. Healing and the guy said,
• 3:06:48
  Speaker 2: later it was like an electric shock went from my
• 3:06:51
  Speaker 2: shoulder to my, stomach and he was instantaneously. Healed of
• 3:06:56
  Speaker 2: an incurable. Condition the only case of gastroparesis that's been
• 3:07:00
  Speaker 2: court as being. Healed four researchers investigated that case and
• 3:07:05
  Speaker 2: publish it as a case study in a peer reviewed medical.
• 3:07:08
  Speaker 2: Journal something's going, On, Sean AND i think what's something
• 3:07:13
  Speaker 2: is Is, god from time to time chooses to intervene
• 3:07:17
  Speaker 2: and to show his power and to show his love
• 3:07:19
  Speaker 2: and to show his grace in ways that capture the
• 3:07:22
  Speaker 2: attention of the.
• 3:07:23
  Speaker 1: World, wow that's that. Awesome that's.
• 3:07:29
  Speaker 2: AMAZING i, MEAN i, Mean barbara is the sweetest person
• 3:07:32
  Speaker 2: you know WHEN i interview, people BECAUSE i interview people
• 3:07:34
  Speaker 2: for books and her scholars And i'm tapping into their,
• 3:07:38
  Speaker 2: expertise and SO i always pay them because it's only
• 3:07:41
  Speaker 2: right for me to compensate him for the. Time and
• 3:07:43
  Speaker 2: and so at the end of my, INTERVIEW i went
• 3:07:45
  Speaker 2: To virginia to Interview barbara on. CAMERA i have a
• 3:07:48
  Speaker 2: w ole interview on. Camera i'll show it to. You
• 3:07:50
  Speaker 2: and she SO i offered her payment for her, time
• 3:07:55
  Speaker 2: and SO i can't take ANY i can't take anything for.
• 3:07:59
  Speaker 2: This god did. This this is this is a testimony
• 3:08:02
  Speaker 2: To him and his power and his. GRACE i COULDN'T
• 3:08:04
  Speaker 2: i couldn't take. Anything that's very, sweet very sweet. Woman
• 3:08:12
  Speaker 2: SO i love stories like that me, TOO i really.
• 3:08:14
  Speaker 2: Do AND i love stories where and this is a
• 3:08:18
  Speaker 2: this is a form of miracle Where god touches someone.
• 3:08:23
  Speaker 2: Directly AND i have a whole chapter of that in
• 3:08:28
  Speaker 2: my book about people through history and contemporaneously in contemporary
• 3:08:32
  Speaker 2: world who are touched By god in a supernatural. Way
• 3:08:36
  Speaker 2: i'll give you a quick. Story guy Named. Robert robert
• 3:08:40
  Speaker 2: lived in moral. Life he was a, drunk he was a,
• 3:08:43
  Speaker 2: gambler he was a. Womanizer H he once got in
• 3:08:47
  Speaker 2: a dispute with a business partner and beat him up
• 3:08:49
  Speaker 2: with a baseball, bat got sent to prison for. It
• 3:08:52
  Speaker 2: took a limo to, prison took a limo. Home had
• 3:08:55
  Speaker 2: a lot of, money very. Wealthy he's standing on the
• 3:08:59
  Speaker 2: beach In, florida and he, Said god spoke to, me
• 3:09:03
  Speaker 2: not through my, ears BUT i heard it inside. Me
• 3:09:06
  Speaker 2: And god, Said, Robert i've saved you more time than
• 3:09:09
  Speaker 2: you'll ever. Know now you need to come to me
• 3:09:12
  Speaker 2: through my Son. Jesus and this guy's an. Atheist he,
• 3:09:16
  Speaker 2: SAID i don't even Know. JESUS i Thought jesus a swear.
• 3:09:19
  Speaker 2: WORD i don't even know who he, is you. Know
• 3:09:21
  Speaker 2: so the Only christian he knew Was Frank, gifford remember the,
• 3:09:23
  Speaker 2: Sportscaster Frank. Gifford and so we called Up, Frank, frank
• 3:09:28
  Speaker 2: you're A. CHRISTIAN i just had this. Experience god talked to.
• 3:09:32
  Speaker 2: ME i heard. Him he, said who Is? Jesus And frank,
• 3:09:36
  Speaker 2: said get that, Book The case For christ at least over,
• 3:09:39
  Speaker 2: world that'll explain. Everything So robert gets my book he. Reads,
• 3:09:43
  Speaker 2: Anyway robert has a one hundred and eighty degree radical
• 3:09:47
  Speaker 2: transformation one hundred and eighty. Degrees he becomes a devout
• 3:09:52
  Speaker 2: follower Of jesus when he is. Baptized he gets baptized
• 3:09:59
  Speaker 2: at The Crystal cathea famous church back then In, california
• 3:10:03
  Speaker 2: and he tells his story About god, intervened talked to
• 3:10:09
  Speaker 2: him and how he came to faith and they began
• 3:10:11
  Speaker 2: talking to. Me do you Know? God have you met?
• 3:10:14
  Speaker 2: Him have you experienced? Him and the pastor rips up
• 3:10:17
  Speaker 2: his sermon and, said you all have heard the. Gospel
• 3:10:19
  Speaker 2: anybody wants to come up right, now Receive jesus as
• 3:10:22
  Speaker 2: a forgiver and leader and be baptized on the. Spot
• 3:10:25
  Speaker 2: come on. Up seven hundred people came up in two
• 3:10:29
  Speaker 2: services when he was. Buried he died a few years.
• 3:10:32
  Speaker 2: Later when he was buried up In, montana where he was,
• 3:10:35
  Speaker 2: from at his request on his tombstone and just says
• 3:10:38
  Speaker 2: believe In. Jesus now people and thousands of people came
• 3:10:43
  Speaker 2: to his. Funeral and you, wonder, well why who was this? Guy,
• 3:10:47
  Speaker 2: well people didn't know him By robert that was his given.
• 3:10:50
  Speaker 2: Name he was known by his stage Name Evil, canevil
• 3:10:56
  Speaker 2: So Evil, canievil the famous motorcycle daredevil rider who in
• 3:11:00
  Speaker 2: The Guinness book Of World wreckers for more broken bones
• 3:11:02
  Speaker 2: than any human. Being Evil canievil Had god speak to
• 3:11:07
  Speaker 2: him transform. Him we became. FRIENDS i remember he called
• 3:11:11
  Speaker 2: me for the first. TIME i answered my. PHONE i said,
• 3:11:14
  Speaker 2: hello and the voice, said is this least? TROUBLE i said.
• 3:11:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah he said this Is evil AND i, Thought satan
• 3:11:20
  Speaker 2: has got my phone? Number can he do? That Can
• 3:11:22
  Speaker 2: satan do? This what the? Heck and he said, no,
• 3:11:24
  Speaker 2: No evil. Canivea oh. Okay so we became friends And
• 3:11:28
  Speaker 2: god radically changed that guy's. Life AND i go as a.
• 3:11:33
  Speaker 2: Miracle that's a miracle When god reaches down and just
• 3:11:37
  Speaker 2: grabs somebody like, that Like saul Of darsius Becomes paul The, apostle.
• 3:11:43
  Speaker 1: MAN i love her and stuff LIKE i do.
• 3:11:46
  Speaker 2: Too it's, encouraging isn't. It you, KNOW i know you asked.
• 3:11:49
  Speaker 2: Earlier you know, What, hey you view the state of the,
• 3:11:51
  Speaker 2: world and, yeah there's a lot of bad stuff going,
• 3:11:53
  Speaker 2: on but, Golly god's still in. Control he's still. Alive
• 3:11:56
  Speaker 2: he's still doing stuff like. This and WHEN i hear
• 3:11:59
  Speaker 2: stories about his how he intervenes and through, dreams through,
• 3:12:03
  Speaker 2: visions through near death, experiences through deathbed, visions through direct,
• 3:12:08
  Speaker 2: experiences all these, things it brings me. HOPE i don't
• 3:12:13
  Speaker 2: base my theology on, it but it tends to bolster
• 3:12:16
  Speaker 2: my theology because it's consistent with the teachings of The.
• 3:12:19
  Speaker 2: Bible you, know.
• 3:12:21
  Speaker 3: We're talking about these miracles that you've interviewed people, on
• 3:12:26
  Speaker 3: and it sounds like some of it stems from.
• 3:12:30
  Speaker 1: Prayer and so.
• 3:12:32
  Speaker 3: WHAT i want to ask you, is how do You
• 3:12:34
  Speaker 3: how do you? Pray and who do you pray? To
• 3:12:38
  Speaker 3: do you pray To? Jesus do you pray To? God
• 3:12:40
  Speaker 3: do you pray to The Holy? Spirit do you pray
• 3:12:42
  Speaker 3: to all?
• 3:12:43
  Speaker 2: THREE i kind of follow What jesus did when he
• 3:12:47
  Speaker 2: gave The lord's prayers kind of a, model and he
• 3:12:50
  Speaker 2: prayed to The, father my father who art in. Heaven
• 3:12:53
  Speaker 2: SO i tend to pray to The. FATHER i don't
• 3:12:55
  Speaker 2: think it's wrong to pray To. JESUS i don't think
• 3:12:57
  Speaker 2: it's wrong to pray The Holy. SPIRIT i think that's
• 3:13:00
  Speaker 2: you could do. That BUT i pray to The. Father and.
• 3:13:07
  Speaker 1: Why do you do.
• 3:13:08
  Speaker 3: That i'm just curious if you have If jesus is
• 3:13:11
  Speaker 3: the way to The. Father, yeah, yeah Because i've always
• 3:13:14
  Speaker 3: prayed to The father as. Well, yeah and Then i've
• 3:13:16
  Speaker 3: started kind of switching.
• 3:13:17
  Speaker 1: It, well and that's.
• 3:13:18
  Speaker 2: Fine to pray To jesus is. Fine to pray to
• 3:13:20
  Speaker 2: The Holy spirit is. Fine but because that's How jesus modeled,
• 3:13:24
  Speaker 2: it you, Know jesus when he gave us The lord's, prayer,
• 3:13:27
  Speaker 2: said our, father who are in. Heaven SO i, thought,
• 3:13:32
  Speaker 2: okay then that's a good thing to model my own prayer.
• 3:13:34
  Speaker 2: After If jesus is praying to The, father and Then
• 3:13:36
  Speaker 2: i'll pray to The. Father but to, PRAY i think
• 3:13:40
  Speaker 2: To jesus is. Fine pray The Holy spirit is. Fine
• 3:13:45
  Speaker 2: what is a little dangerous is some people pray to
• 3:13:52
  Speaker 2: angels and you Know. Paul it was A paul Or.
• 3:13:57
  Speaker 2: Peter there's an incident in scripture where one of the
• 3:14:01
  Speaker 2: apostles starts to bow down to worship an angel AND angeli, no, no,
• 3:14:06
  Speaker 2: No I'm i'm like. You i'm not you, know you
• 3:14:09
  Speaker 2: don't worship. Me AND i think THERE'S i think the
• 3:14:11
  Speaker 2: danger of praying to an angel would be number, one
• 3:14:14
  Speaker 2: it's Not. God number, two there's a slippery slope that
• 3:14:17
  Speaker 2: do we start worshiping? Angels and, NO i mean that's
• 3:14:21
  Speaker 2: that's not. Appropriate BUT i, mean my son actually wrote
• 3:14:27
  Speaker 2: a great book on. Prayer my son's a. Theologian he
• 3:14:31
  Speaker 2: And John, coe who's a well known, theologian wrote a
• 3:14:33
  Speaker 2: book Called When Prayer Gets. Real and it's something cool
• 3:14:38
  Speaker 2: about your son writing a book on. PRAYER i mean
• 3:14:41
  Speaker 2: so proud of. Him and it's such a profound. BOOK
• 3:14:44
  Speaker 2: i encourage anyone who wants to know how DO i
• 3:14:46
  Speaker 2: pray with? Authenticity how DO i pray with? Power and so?
• 3:14:50
  Speaker 2: Forth that's a really good book to. Read When Prayer Gets?
• 3:14:55
  Speaker 2: Real you?
• 3:14:56
  Speaker 1: Ask do you ask for?
• 3:14:57
  Speaker 2: THINGS i? Do? First first, ALL i want to spend
• 3:15:02
  Speaker 2: a time in adoration and. Worship SO i have a
• 3:15:04
  Speaker 2: worship time in my prayer WHERE i Worship god for
• 3:15:07
  Speaker 2: who he is and What he's done in my life and.
• 3:15:09
  Speaker 2: Others and SO i spend time worshiping. HIM i spend
• 3:15:12
  Speaker 2: a time of. CONFESSION i KNOW i shouldn't have done
• 3:15:17
  Speaker 2: WHAT i did. YESTERDAY i cut that guy off and
• 3:15:20
  Speaker 2: he just wanted to talk to, me AND i was
• 3:15:22
  Speaker 2: rude and And i'm. SORRY i helped me to be
• 3:15:26
  Speaker 2: more tuned to other people sometimes that maybe Sometimes i'm.
• 3:15:29
  Speaker 2: Not and SO i confess my. Sins now they've already been.
• 3:15:32
  Speaker 2: Forgiven but sometimes when we're when we have a pattern
• 3:15:37
  Speaker 2: of sin in our, life even though we're A, christian
• 3:15:39
  Speaker 2: it kind of creates a bit of static in our
• 3:15:41
  Speaker 2: line in talking To. God you, know it's it's a
• 3:15:44
  Speaker 2: little bit of a static and you want to clear that.
• 3:15:48
  Speaker 2: Up SO i think it's good to, confess to spend
• 3:15:50
  Speaker 2: a time of confession and to Say, God i'm sorry
• 3:15:54
  Speaker 2: for this and this THAT i did. YESTERDAY i knew
• 3:15:58
  Speaker 2: BEFORE i did IT i shouldn't AND i did it,
• 3:15:59
  Speaker 2: anyway And i'm JUST i just want to Say i'm.
• 3:16:01
  Speaker 2: Sorry SO i do a time of. Confession THEN i
• 3:16:04
  Speaker 2: do a time of, thanksgiving thank You god FOR i pray.
• 3:16:09
  Speaker 2: This just the other, DAY i, Said, God i've Been
• 3:16:12
  Speaker 2: i'm seventy almost seventy three years. Old i've been driving
• 3:16:15
  Speaker 2: SINCE i was, sixteen And i've never hurt anybody. Driving
• 3:16:19
  Speaker 2: thank You god for protecting me from that horrible experience
• 3:16:24
  Speaker 2: it would be to be in a traffic, accident to hurt,
• 3:16:26
  Speaker 2: somebody And i've never had. That AND i just want
• 3:16:28
  Speaker 2: to say thank you for protecting me for all these,
• 3:16:31
  Speaker 2: years not just from being hurt, myself but from hurting somebody.
• 3:16:34
  Speaker 2: Else SO i want to thank him for what he's
• 3:16:36
  Speaker 2: been provides for my, family for ways that he has
• 3:16:41
  Speaker 2: guided me or opened my eyes to SOMETHING i needed to.
• 3:16:44
  Speaker 2: SEE i just spend a time in, thanksgiving and THEN
• 3:16:47
  Speaker 2: i spent a time in it's called, supplication which is Asking, God,
• 3:16:52
  Speaker 2: god you KNOW i really need your help in this.
• 3:16:57
  Speaker 2: Area and of course he already KNOWS i. Do he's.
• 3:17:00
  Speaker 2: Omniscient but the fact THAT i come to him with
• 3:17:03
  Speaker 2: it and am vulnerable and honest about the THINGS i
• 3:17:09
  Speaker 2: need in my. Life you, know we don't have the
• 3:17:13
  Speaker 2: income to get through next, month AND i Know you're
• 3:17:16
  Speaker 2: the great. Provider and this happened a lot WHEN i
• 3:17:19
  Speaker 2: TOOK i left journalism to go into the church world
• 3:17:22
  Speaker 2: at sixty percent pay, cut and so we lived on
• 3:17:26
  Speaker 2: nothing for many, years and there were many times when
• 3:17:28
  Speaker 2: we would, Pray, god we don't have the mortgage money this,
• 3:17:32
  Speaker 2: month and we need your, help And he always came
• 3:17:35
  Speaker 2: through one way or the. Other but just to be
• 3:17:39
  Speaker 2: vulnerable and honest about the things that we need in our.
• 3:17:41
  Speaker 2: Life so that's a simple way to. Remember it's the
• 3:17:44
  Speaker 2: acrossic acts to Adore, god spend a time in, worship
• 3:17:48
  Speaker 2: to confess our, sins to Thank, him and then supplication
• 3:17:52
  Speaker 2: to ask for those things that we need from.
• 3:17:55
  Speaker 4: Him is it do?
• 3:17:56
  Speaker 1: You is it ceremonial or or or is it just
• 3:18:03
  Speaker 1: are you just?
• 3:18:04
  Speaker 2: Talking, Yeah i'm just.
• 3:18:06
  Speaker 1: Talking i'm just when you're, Driving, yeah when you're walking, AROUND.
• 3:18:10
  Speaker 2: I have a time of. Prayer it's it's a little
• 3:18:12
  Speaker 2: more like built around that acts, structure the, aderation, confession
• 3:18:20
  Speaker 2: the kind of thing LIKE i just. Described SO i
• 3:18:22
  Speaker 2: want to take time out for my day to do.
• 3:18:24
  Speaker 2: That But i'm constantly praying To. GOD i mean When i'm,
• 3:18:28
  Speaker 2: driving when i'm you, Know, GOD i need your. Help
• 3:18:32
  Speaker 2: i'm and sometimes we spiritualize, things you, Know LIKE i
• 3:18:36
  Speaker 2: was in Downtown, houston AND i needed to find a parking,
• 3:18:38
  Speaker 2: place AND i, Thought, GOD i know this is, ridiculous
• 3:18:41
  Speaker 2: BUT i got TO i got to be in this
• 3:18:43
  Speaker 2: meeting in ten, minutes and there's no parking. Anywhere would you, just,
• 3:18:46
  Speaker 2: oh there's a parking, place you. KNOW i, Mean i'm
• 3:18:49
  Speaker 2: probably just spiritualizing, it but dog gone, it it. Happened,
• 3:18:52
  Speaker 2: so you, KNOW i think there's an ongoing conversation we
• 3:18:57
  Speaker 2: have With. God have you.
• 3:19:03
  Speaker 3: When you ask for something or you need, something do
• 3:19:06
  Speaker 3: you have you ever prayed as if it's already, Happened.
• 3:19:11
  Speaker 2: Oh in anticipation Of him at already granting. IT i
• 3:19:14
  Speaker 2: know that's common in some. CHURCHES i don't generally do.
• 3:19:17
  Speaker 2: THAT i thank him BECAUSE i know whatever he does
• 3:19:21
  Speaker 2: for me is going to be for my best. Interests
• 3:19:24
  Speaker 2: and so if IF i pray FOR x and he
• 3:19:27
  Speaker 2: gives me, WHY i think there's gonna be a reason for,
• 3:19:31
  Speaker 2: It and SO i would rather have why in the
• 3:19:34
  Speaker 2: end THAT.
• 3:19:34
  Speaker 1: X SO.
• 3:19:37
  Speaker 2: I know there's some in A pentecostal realm who will
• 3:19:39
  Speaker 2: pray as If god has already granted. IT i don't
• 3:19:45
  Speaker 2: think we have the power to manifest things that. Way
• 3:19:48
  Speaker 2: but my approach is just to be like a father
• 3:19:53
  Speaker 2: with his. Child AND i know when your, child you
• 3:19:56
  Speaker 2: got a little, kid he's, older he's going to come
• 3:19:58
  Speaker 2: to you and, Say, dad can you buy me a?
• 3:20:01
  Speaker 2: Corvette and you're gonna, SAY i love your, son but
• 3:20:04
  Speaker 2: there's no Way i'm going to buy you a. Corvette
• 3:20:06
  Speaker 2: but you need to understand. Why it's BECAUSE i love.
• 3:20:08
  Speaker 2: You and SOMETIMES i come To god AND i, Say,
• 3:20:10
  Speaker 2: GOD i really need, this and he says. NO i,
• 3:20:15
  Speaker 2: mean there's an old saying the biggest curse is getting
• 3:20:18
  Speaker 2: everything you pray.
• 3:20:19
  Speaker 1: For, really, yeah because if.
• 3:20:22
  Speaker 2: You, pray can you think of the things through your
• 3:20:24
  Speaker 2: life that you've prayed for and you, think Thank god
• 3:20:27
  Speaker 2: he didn't grant that prayer because it would have been a.
• 3:20:30
  Speaker 2: Disaster you, know we pray for all kinds of. Stuff,
• 3:20:33
  Speaker 2: well thank goodness he knows.
• 3:20:35
  Speaker 1: Best it's a good one of, it you.
• 3:20:36
  Speaker 2: Know and sometimes when we don't get what we want
• 3:20:39
  Speaker 2: and then we find out five years, later oh, Man
• 3:20:41
  Speaker 2: i'm so much better off now THAN i would have
• 3:20:44
  Speaker 2: been If. God So god answers every prayer with either
• 3:20:47
  Speaker 2: a yes or a no or a. Wait but sometimes
• 3:20:51
  Speaker 2: a no is a, blessing.
• 3:20:54
  Speaker 1: Man you, KNOW i.
• 3:20:56
  Speaker 3: That's an interesting perspective That i've not thought of BECAUSE
• 3:20:59
  Speaker 3: i started praying as if things have already. Happened AND
• 3:21:05
  Speaker 3: i have you ever heard Of Greg? Braiden by, chance
• 3:21:10
  Speaker 3: listen To. GREG i went on A Greg braiden kick
• 3:21:13
  Speaker 3: for a.
• 3:21:13
  Speaker 2: While but.
• 3:21:16
  Speaker 3: And through some of my other, interviews And i've talked
• 3:21:19
  Speaker 3: about manifestation and and things like, that AND i always
• 3:21:24
  Speaker 3: get a ton of hate when WHEN i talk about.
• 3:21:27
  Speaker 3: That but you, know but AND i gave a specific.
• 3:21:30
  Speaker 3: Example by the time this, releases it will have been
• 3:21:34
  Speaker 3: a couple of months. Ago BUT i talked about this
• 3:21:38
  Speaker 3: time that me and my wife got engaged under the northern,
• 3:21:41
  Speaker 3: lights and AND i THINK I i THINK i prayed
• 3:21:46
  Speaker 3: that into existence because it happened In alaska In, august
• 3:21:51
  Speaker 3: which is almost.
• 3:21:51
  Speaker 1: Impossible but.
• 3:21:55
  Speaker 3: It's actually the interview that's running right, now and the
• 3:21:59
  Speaker 3: name of the woman THAT i interviewed As Angela. Ford
• 3:22:01
  Speaker 3: AND i talk about this got a ton of hate about.
• 3:22:03
  Speaker 3: It and and you, know sometimes in the, Morning i'll
• 3:22:13
  Speaker 3: get up AND i will just flip to any random
• 3:22:19
  Speaker 3: page in The bible just to see WHAT i, like
• 3:22:23
  Speaker 3: to randomize it BECAUSE i feel LIKE i feel like
• 3:22:26
  Speaker 3: he's going to tell me something rather than IF i
• 3:22:28
  Speaker 3: just read it straight through and.
• 3:22:32
  Speaker 1: Open it.
• 3:22:32
  Speaker 3: Up yesterday, Morning sunday, morning and it was a. PASSAGE
• 3:22:40
  Speaker 3: i don't have any scripture. Memorized LIKE i, Said i'm
• 3:22:44
  Speaker 3: new with, this but in, fact you know, WHAT i
• 3:22:48
  Speaker 3: texted it to. Somebody i'm going to run down and
• 3:22:50
  Speaker 3: grab my. Phone i'll be right. BACK i want to
• 3:22:52
  Speaker 3: read this to you BECAUSE i would love to hear your. Perspective,
• 3:22:55
  Speaker 3: yeah it.
• 3:22:55
  Speaker 2: Was a great. LINE i was. SAYING i used to
• 3:22:57
  Speaker 2: be able to run downstairs like. That there's a there's
• 3:23:00
  Speaker 2: a great quote, said how to fall asleep in a.
• 3:23:05
  Speaker 2: Chair number one be. Old number, two sit in a.
• 3:23:08
  Speaker 2: CHAIR i got in the airplane. YESTERDAY i was asleep
• 3:23:13
  Speaker 2: before takeoff and lets you, said how do you do?
• 3:23:15
  Speaker 2: That AND i, Said i'm old AND i sit in a.
• 3:23:18
  Speaker 2: Chair that's ALL i. Need, MAN i WISH i could
• 3:23:21
  Speaker 2: pull that. Off so here it. Is here's the.
• 3:23:25
  Speaker 3: Scripture It's mark, eleven twenty. Four, THEREFORE i tell, you
• 3:23:33
  Speaker 3: whatever you ask in, prayer believe that you have received
• 3:23:36
  Speaker 3: it and it will be.
• 3:23:37
  Speaker 1: Yours.
• 3:23:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah so to, me.
• 3:23:44
  Speaker 3: That kind of goes along with WHAT i was just. Saying,
• 3:23:48
  Speaker 3: yeah we're forty, four, right.
• 3:23:49
  Speaker 1: Now but but how do you how do you take?
• 3:23:54
  Speaker 2: That, WELL i have to read in context with other
• 3:23:57
  Speaker 2: verses and other teachers Of jesus about. PRAYER i think
• 3:24:00
  Speaker 2: to put it into. Context but there's there's nothing wrong
• 3:24:03
  Speaker 2: with a sense of anticipation and, Saying, god you KNOW
• 3:24:08
  Speaker 2: i need this in my, life AND i know you love,
• 3:24:10
  Speaker 2: me AND i know it's this is something that you
• 3:24:13
  Speaker 2: want me to, have and So i'm Gonna i'm gonna
• 3:24:16
  Speaker 2: receive it as if you've already given. IT i guess
• 3:24:19
  Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with, that but it's not the POSTURE
• 3:24:22
  Speaker 2: i generally.
• 3:24:22
  Speaker 3: Take, Okay, okay YEAH i. DON'T i just love hearing
• 3:24:28
  Speaker 3: how people do. It, yeah you, know there's.
• 3:24:30
  Speaker 2: A, variety and you know it's. Interesting the word denomination
• 3:24:34
  Speaker 2: comes from the same root as the word. Denominator and,
• 3:24:36
  Speaker 2: yeah there's one hundred and some odd denominations In, christianity
• 3:24:40
  Speaker 2: but we all have a common denominator and that is The,
• 3:24:43
  Speaker 2: gospel that's the core teachings Of. Jesus and then we
• 3:24:46
  Speaker 2: agree to disagree on some peripheral issues how to how to,
• 3:24:50
  Speaker 2: pray how to how to do? This do you? Tie
• 3:24:52
  Speaker 2: do you? Not and you know, what it's okay that
• 3:24:56
  Speaker 2: we have some differences among, us as long as we
• 3:25:00
  Speaker 2: whole tight to the, core so, denominator common. Denominator we
• 3:25:06
  Speaker 2: have a common denominator all these, denominations but we have
• 3:25:08
  Speaker 2: some different, practices and we have some different, emphases and
• 3:25:12
  Speaker 2: every church is not the. Same but as long as
• 3:25:15
  Speaker 2: they were a, denomination as long as they agree That
• 3:25:19
  Speaker 2: jesus is who we claim to, be the unique son Of,
• 3:25:20
  Speaker 2: god who proved to my returney from the, dead and so,
• 3:25:23
  Speaker 2: forth and certain non, negotiables then it's okay that we
• 3:25:27
  Speaker 2: view prayer a little differently from one church to. Another that's.
• 3:25:30
  Speaker 2: Okay when we get to, heaven we can raise our
• 3:25:32
  Speaker 2: hands and, Say, jesus would you just clarify this once
• 3:25:35
  Speaker 2: and for. All would you, just you, know lay this
• 3:25:37
  Speaker 2: out in a way we can understand. It i'm gonna
• 3:25:41
  Speaker 2: have my hand in the. Air, jesus how does this
• 3:25:44
  Speaker 2: calvinism and our minion thing fit? Together i'm just curious about.
• 3:25:48
  Speaker 2: THAT i can't wait to hear what he.
• 3:25:49
  Speaker 1: Says neither me. Neither, well we will wrap it up
• 3:25:55
  Speaker 1: the interview.
• 3:25:56
  Speaker 3: HERE i want to got TO i want to kind
• 3:25:58
  Speaker 3: of close it out with why do they Call jesus The,
• 3:26:03
  Speaker 3: way The, truth and The.
• 3:26:04
  Speaker 2: Light they call him that because that was the way
• 3:26:07
  Speaker 2: he described. HIMSELF i, am he, said, interestingly he would
• 3:26:11
  Speaker 2: take the WORDS i am and apply him to. Himself
• 3:26:13
  Speaker 2: and you think back in The Old testament When moses
• 3:26:17
  Speaker 2: Encountered god in the form of a burning bush and
• 3:26:22
  Speaker 2: asked for his. Name god identified himself AS i. Am
• 3:26:26
  Speaker 2: and so we Have jesus using THESE i am. STATEMENTS
• 3:26:29
  Speaker 2: i think seven of. Them and one of THOSE i
• 3:26:32
  Speaker 2: am statements IS I am The, way The, truth and The.
• 3:26:36
  Speaker 2: Life and then the important part comes. Next no one
• 3:26:39
  Speaker 2: comes to The father except through. Me, so in other,
• 3:26:43
  Speaker 2: words is only through The etonian death Of jesus and
• 3:26:45
  Speaker 2: The cross is only through his resurrection that anybody anywhere
• 3:26:49
  Speaker 2: has any hope of making it out of this thing
• 3:26:53
  Speaker 2: and getting To. Heaven that's not to say there might
• 3:26:57
  Speaker 2: be some people in the world who don't hear the
• 3:26:58
  Speaker 2: name Of, jesus but who reach out to The One
• 3:27:00
  Speaker 2: True god and in some way remarkably. Saved that could,
• 3:27:06
  Speaker 2: happen but they're not saved apart From. Jesus it is
• 3:27:09
  Speaker 2: because of what he. Did and you, KNOW i know
• 3:27:11
  Speaker 2: this Is christmas season and so, forth and it's just
• 3:27:14
  Speaker 2: a reminder Of god's love for us that he made
• 3:27:17
  Speaker 2: us in his, image loves us so much that he
• 3:27:21
  Speaker 2: sent his son into the world to suffer horrible death
• 3:27:26
  Speaker 2: on the. CROSS i, Mean i've talked to medical doctors
• 3:27:29
  Speaker 2: about what happens to you during. Crucifixion it is a,
• 3:27:31
  Speaker 2: horrific horrific, death so bad that The romans would not
• 3:27:35
  Speaker 2: even crucify their own. Citizens they exempted them because it
• 3:27:39
  Speaker 2: was too. Horrific and Yet, jesus The bible says In
• 3:27:42
  Speaker 2: philippians and The First Christmas, carol that he gave up
• 3:27:47
  Speaker 2: the perks of, heaven and he came into this, world
• 3:27:52
  Speaker 2: and he lived a life of a, servant even to
• 3:27:57
  Speaker 2: the point of going to the. Cross he willingly gave
• 3:28:01
  Speaker 2: up the perks of, heaven entered into this warl On,
• 3:28:03
  Speaker 2: christmas and then ultimately On, easter he is resurrected from
• 3:28:08
  Speaker 2: the dead after having paid for our sins on the.
• 3:28:10
  Speaker 2: CROSS i mean that he is The, way the, truth
• 3:28:16
  Speaker 2: and the. Life there is no other. Path we're all.
• 3:28:20
  Speaker 2: Sinners the only way we can be forgiven is through
• 3:28:24
  Speaker 2: receiving the Payment he made on our behalf when he
• 3:28:28
  Speaker 2: died as our substitute to pay for the sins that we've,
• 3:28:30
  Speaker 2: committed and we receive, that we become a child Of god.
• 3:28:34
  Speaker 1: Forever thank you for sharing that my. Pleasure, Well, lee
• 3:28:40
  Speaker 1: we we kick this off with the. Prayer, YEAH i
• 3:28:43
  Speaker 1: think we should end up with a.
• 3:28:44
  Speaker 2: Prayer that'd be. Awesome, yeah CAN i? Start, Absolutely, Lord
• 3:28:49
  Speaker 2: thanks for this opportunity to talk about, you to talk
• 3:28:51
  Speaker 2: about the hope that you provide through your, Son Jesus,
• 3:28:55
  Speaker 2: christ the fact that there is, redemption there is eternal,
• 3:28:59
  Speaker 2: life there are there is, forgiveness and it is only
• 3:29:06
  Speaker 2: through the provision that he made on the, cross and
• 3:29:10
  Speaker 2: when we receive, that we become your child. Forever so
• 3:29:15
  Speaker 2: we thank you for. That we thank you for your great,
• 3:29:17
  Speaker 2: love for your provision for. Us you could have walked
• 3:29:19
  Speaker 2: the other. Way you could have just snapped your fingers
• 3:29:24
  Speaker 2: and turned this whole planet into a. Cinder but you love,
• 3:29:27
  Speaker 2: us you want to spend eternity with. Us AND i
• 3:29:30
  Speaker 2: do pray that those who are watching who don't know you,
• 3:29:33
  Speaker 2: personally will make today the day that they SAY i
• 3:29:37
  Speaker 2: believe That jesus is the unique son Of. God he
• 3:29:42
  Speaker 2: proved it by returning from the. DEAD i am a.
• 3:29:45
  Speaker 2: SINNER i fall in short of How god wants me to.
• 3:29:48
  Speaker 2: LIVE i confess THAT i want to turn from that
• 3:29:52
  Speaker 2: and an attitude of repentance and. FAITH i want to
• 3:29:54
  Speaker 2: receive this free gift of forgiveness and eternal life That
• 3:29:58
  Speaker 2: jesus purchased for me on The. CROSS i pray many
• 3:30:01
  Speaker 2: people will make today the day that they take that,
• 3:30:05
  Speaker 2: step and that we can then reconvene someday in heaven
• 3:30:10
  Speaker 2: where we won't be constrained by, time and we can
• 3:30:14
  Speaker 2: uh just extol your grace and your love and tell
• 3:30:19
  Speaker 2: story after story about how you have made yourself and
• 3:30:23
  Speaker 2: your ways known in this world in magnificent and miraculous.
• 3:30:30
  Speaker 2: Ways we pray all this In jesus'.
• 3:30:32
  Speaker 3: Name And i'd just like to add that you know
• 3:30:36
  Speaker 3: we are we are seeing this massive wave of people
• 3:30:43
  Speaker 3: coming to, You lord and To jesus and The Holy,
• 3:30:45
  Speaker 3: spirit and and we just pray that that continues to.
• 3:30:50
  Speaker 3: Happen it's it's it is awesome to see that. Happening
• 3:30:54
  Speaker 3: and and and we just hope that you use this
• 3:31:02
  Speaker 3: this conversation THAT i just had With lee to help
• 3:31:06
  Speaker 3: be a part of that and to bring more people to.
• 3:31:08
  Speaker 3: You and, last but not, Least Happy Birthday jesus And Merry.
• 3:31:16
  Speaker 2: Christmas, Amen, Amen, Lee Thanks. SHAWN i really enjoyed. It
• 3:31:21
  Speaker 2: thank you a lot of. Fun it was an. HONOR
• 3:31:24
  Speaker 2: i hope to see you.
• 3:31:24
  Speaker 1: AGAIN i.
• 3:31:25
  Speaker 2: Hope so, YEAH i.
• 3:31:26
  Speaker 1: Had a lot of fun AND i.
• 3:31:28
  Speaker 3: LEARNED i learned a tremendous amount of thanks just everything.
• 3:31:34
  Speaker 2: That you're talking.
• 3:31:35
  Speaker 1: About so thank, You thank you so much for being.
• 3:31:37
  Speaker 1: Here And Merry. Christmas thank you you.
• 3:31:39
  Speaker 2: Too god bless, you my.
• 3:31:40
  Speaker 3: Friend no matter where you're Watching Sean Ryan show, from
• 3:31:55
  Speaker 3: if you get anything out of, this please, like, comment,
• 3:31:59
  Speaker 3: subscribe and most, importantly share this everywhere you possibly. Can
• 3:32:04
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• 3:32:08
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• 3:32:10
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