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Nintendo Adults · Critical Error

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  Oh, Peter, do you want to go to the
• 0:01
  happiest place on earth?
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  >> Did we finally get a company card so
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  that we can go to Disney World?
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  >> No, we're going to the Nintendo store in
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  New York City.
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  >> A critical error is an error which the
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  OS cannot reasonably ignore. Sh. Jake
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  Steinberg is a streamer and writer and
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  certified yapper. Complimentary. Peter
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  Hunt
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  tech is a YouTuber, journalist, and
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  certified yapper. Derogatory. These are
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  the things they cannot reasonably
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  ignore. There's something interesting,
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  Jake. Yesterday, as we were recording
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  this was March 10th, Mario Day. A day to
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  celebrate Mario, your favorite little
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  guy, you know. And uh what I find
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  interesting about this is this is
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  entirely a marketing beat by Nintendo,
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  right? I I think it's it's it's very
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  easy to see that it is this giant
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  marketing beat. And yet,
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  everyone seems to just accept it for
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  what it is and not really question it at
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  all. And I find this really curious
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  because I feel like if another company
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  like like Sony did this or or Xbox did
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  this, I think that people might push
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  back on it a lot more than we do with
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  Nintendo. And it it after Mario Day this
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  year, it just like left me thinking like
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  why don't we talk about Nintendo the
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  same way we talk about these other
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  companies.
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  It's almost a compliment to Nintendo. I
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  think when you really think about it
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  because um like you said other companies
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  I do love imagining a Kratos day. I love
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  imagining
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  >> I mean they do have Last of Us Day, you
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  know, but like
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  >> that's true,
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  >> BUT IT'S IT'S NOT as widespread as Mario
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  Day,
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  >> right? And I think that there is
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  something almost culturally legitimate
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  we could say about Mario Day. And I
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  think it's like asking um why that is.
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  So I think what I want to bring do here
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  is bring in something comparative which
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  is not another video game uh property
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  but instead
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  >> Disney.
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  >> I think Disney characters, Disney
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  movies, we have a lower propensity of
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  seeing Disney characters as like
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  intellectual property as products in the
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  way that I think corporate mascots
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  almost always are. Um, and Disney
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  characters because of their cultural
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  prominence are shared
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  >> almost like mythology like like they're
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  a like these are important stories in
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  our culture. So there is this again we
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  could say shared cultural mythology
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  where um it's not oh Disney's promoting
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  Mickey Mouse again. It's like no Mickey
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  Mouse is a part of my childhood. Mickey
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  Mouse is a part of my cultural history.
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  And I think Nintendo has actually
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  achieved something similar because Mario
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  is discussed like a like a person, like
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  a guy, like a [laughter] Yeah, it's like
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  almost he's like a guy that we all know.
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  >> And it's funny because Mario's been in
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  so many games and exists in so many
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  forms that he grows beyond any
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  particular form. When we talk about
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  Mario, we're actually talking about the
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  image of Mario that exists separate from
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  any single game. Yeah, he is like in the
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  same way that we talk about Mickey
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  Mouse. We all know who Mickey Mouse is.
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  What are we picturing? Are you and I
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  picturing the same thing? I don't really
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  know,
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  >> right? So, it's this um so I think what
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  we're trying to say here, what I'm
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  trying to say here is that Mario is
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  actually a cultural figure in a way that
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  maybe few other video game characters I
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  think there's one have have
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  could challenge.
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  >> Who's your other one?
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  >> Pikachu.
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  >> That is correct. Yes. That is correct.
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  That is actually 100% correct. And it's
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  interesting because I think there's like
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  obviously uh uh Nintendo
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  owns does Nintendo own Pokemon or are
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  they separate companies? There's like
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  some sort of like shared right.
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  >> There is a um threepart sharing of
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  Pokemon. Let's
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  >> And I just And I [laughter] love that,
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  you know, I just love corporate
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  rights. Um but no, I think I think that
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  like
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  >> put Nintendo and then the third thing.
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  Yeah.
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  >> Yeah. I I do I 100% agree with you. I
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  100% agree with the idea of like uh
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  Disney princesses are sort of like uh uh
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  larger than the brand themselves, right?
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  Cuz Mario to me is larger than the brand
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  of Nintendo cuz
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  he's in so many things and as Nintendo
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  has expanded into doing movies and
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  things, theme parks and all this, he's
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  just gotten bigger and bigger and
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  bigger,
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  >> right? And so what I find so fascinating
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  about the idea of Mario Day though is
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  that people who I think are largely uh
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  uh pretty savvy to these sorts of
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  things. I I would like even include
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  ourselves in this. Um there's a certain
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  level of sort of just giving into a
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  major marketing beat that happens every
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  single year for a company. And like I
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  said, I think like other studios or or
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  you know, game uh makers, whatever, when
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  they try to do this, I do think that
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  there's a more skepticism to them. So
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  like for example, Last of Us Day, it
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  used to be called Outbreak Day and then
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  we had, you know, a pandemic. Um
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  >> I this is new to me. I didn't realize
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  that. That's that's quite funny. Okay.
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  >> Oh, yeah. No, they changed it because it
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  was uh that year they were like, "Hey,
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  we're [laughter] No, we're done."
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  >> Weird. Okay. Yeah. Um but uh uh cuz it
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  was like whatever it's like October
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  something which is like when it like
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  happens in the last of us. Um
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  >> don't want to go to the sale [laughter]
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  page and be like be like um don't be
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  confused with that it links to the Last
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  of Us day. [laughter]
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  >> Yes. But uh uh I think that that most
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  people recognize that The Last of Us Day
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  is an opportunity to sell t-shirts,
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  >> you know, like like pretty much every
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  single post for Last of Us Day is like,
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  "Hey, check out our our Sony merch," you
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  know?
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  >> Yeah.
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  >> And what's funny is Mario Day is the
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  same thing, but the there's a there's
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  significantly in my experience less
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  cynicism that's that's pointed towards
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  it because what did they announce on
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  Mario Day this year? They showed off a
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  new trailer for the Mario movie that's
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  coming out in April. They showed off a
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  bunch of new uh Mario Lego sets. Uh, you
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  know what I mean? They made the promise
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  of more to come. Hey,
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  >> we can't wait to show you what else is
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  to come. What's that?
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  >> Don't forget the biggest announcement of
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  Mario Day.
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  >> I'm forgetting the biggest announcement
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  of Mario.
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  >> Trailer and release date for Yoshi and
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  the Mysterious Book. Thank you very
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  much.
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  >> Huge. And I'm so sorry. And I'm so sorry
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  for for neglecting Yoshi and the
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  Mysterious Book in this moment. I
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  apologize.
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  >> May 21st. I'll be there, baby.
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  >> But yeah, you know what I mean? Like
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  like what's interesting is it's doing
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  the exact same thing. And I'm just
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  curious, what do you think it is? Of
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  course, you mentioned the the Disney
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  princessification of Mario, but is there
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  something else? Is it just the fact that
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  that we give Nintendo such a big pass
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  when it comes to these sorts of things
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  because we just like Nintendo games?
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  >> Okay, so stay with me on this. I think
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  that when we talk about Nintendo and how
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  we talk about Nintendo, the core thing
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  that we need to kind of challenge and
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  isolate is how we think about Nintendo
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  that in a way that is different from
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  these other companies, which I think is
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  what you're circling here. And I love
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  this very famous Michelle Fuko uh essay
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  called what is an author? And it's this
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  idea that um there's this idea in there
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  about how an author's name will become a
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  category that organizes meaning. So you
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  see this all the time uh Shakespearean
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  Kafka-esque. What are we saying? We're
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  not talking about the people. We are
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  talking about concepts. We're talking
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  about how concepts are organized. And I
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  think you see this happen because of the
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  size of Nintendo in our culture. how so
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  many people tie that culture to um their
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  coming of age, their growing up to
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  toemic parts of their lives that you can
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  see people say things like
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  >> Nintendo would never do that. That
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  doesn't feel very Nintendo. This is
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  classic Nintendo,
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  >> dude. In the way that
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  like, you know, we talked I don't last
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  week, two weeks ago about like Phil
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  Spencer like sort of like trying to
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  become the like I'm just your friend.
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  Xbox is actually just your friend
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  and everyone, not everyone, but like I I
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  think a lot of people see right through
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  that. Nintendo has done that and people
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  don't see that at all. And it's exactly
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  what you're saying. There's so many
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  things like, "Well, Nintendo wouldn't do
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  that." Or, "Well, hey, they're just
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  protecting their IP, their copyright."
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  Like, okay, well,
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  >> do we need to send a man to prison for
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  life?
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  >> Sure. Sure. Sure. And I think um
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  obviously we can acknowledge that
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  Nintendo is simply a massive uh
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  multinational corporation with with
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  dozens maybe hundreds I don't know teams
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  and strategies but largely in the
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  discourse I do think we tend to treat
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  Nintendo like a single creative
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  personality. So
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  >> yes it feels like it feels like we're
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  just like boiling Nintendo down to just
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  Shigiro Miiamoto.
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  >> Yeah, dude.
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  >> I think they kind of want that cuz they
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  bring them out all the time, right? they
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  they have like their lead designers of
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  different games, ANOMA, right, showing
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  up anytime. It's like, okay, we're going
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  to talk about Zelda. Um, and
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  [clears throat] yeah, I it does feel
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  like they are trying to make it seem
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  like it is like it's just like seven
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  people who are all just hanging out
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  making games and it's like I don't think
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  that's true at all.
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  >> It's it's funny you see this with so
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  many of these kind of hugely culturally
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  impactful corporations. How many times
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  in the modern context is Walt Disney
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  weirdly evoked when talking about
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  Disney? How many times is Steve Jobs
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  evoked when talking about Apple? And um
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  it is this this kind of personification
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  of the corporation into this one
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  creative vision as if there is like this
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  um this this bible that we must adhere
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  to in corporate politics which um I
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  think directly leads into this problem
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  that arises when we talk about Nintendo
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  that limits our critical ability which
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  is that we treat Nintendo as a monolith.
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  >> Yeah.
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  >> Right. And it's um
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  people stop asking I think practical
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  questions about the about like who makes
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  these games and why and like what's
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  going on as a as a craft there and
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  instead kind of get again these
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  sentences that are like well Nintendo
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  always does this, Nintendo decided to do
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  this. And I don't know if being the
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  Nintendo whisperer is really the
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  correct way to become the the ultimate
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  arbiter of of what is going on with this
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  company, right? The the the person who
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  can most clearly identify, well, this is
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  why they make these choices, right?
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  Do you think that part of that comes
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  down to the fact that Nintendo is older
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  than the other major players in the like
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  console world and like other like major
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  publishers and stuff like that because
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  like you know okay I grew up playing
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  Xbox games and PlayStation games of
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  course but like what was I playing
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  before all of that even as a much
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  younger kid I was playing an NES you
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  know and and like do you think that some
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  of that has to do with you know we you
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  talked about like growing up with these
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  things and whatever but it's Not only
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  because so many people grew up with
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  Xbox, so many people grew up with
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  PlayStation, but like I don't think that
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  the first video game that you are
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  playing is usually going to be and
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  obviously this isn't true across the
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  board, but like I feel like the first
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  game that people are usually playing is
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  something like a Mario because it is so
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  much more simple than like I'm not
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  sitting down and being like, "All right,
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  kids, first game you're going to be
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  playing Killzone 3 today, you know?"
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  [laughter]
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  >> Yeah. I think it's a I think it's a
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  combination of age and a combination of
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  again that that kind of cultural
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  prominence because if you if you think
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  about how critically Nintendo games are
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  reviewed or evaluated or analyzed, I
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  think that you come back to one thing
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  over and over and over again. Um,
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  Spetana boom. Uh, restorative nostalgia.
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  this idea that how closely does this
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  game resemble the Nintendo game that I
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  grew up with. Um, the new Mario game
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  being compared to Super Mario World, the
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  the um in in more to you know, this is a
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  little too easy. So, to to bring up
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  something maybe a little bit more
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  contemporary, mourning the loss of the
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  aesthetics, the UI of the Wii, the Wii
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  U, and the 3DS. Yeah.
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  >> The Yeah. the the distance from this um
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  idea that I have of Nintendo in my mind.
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  And I think that um I use the term
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  restorative nostalgia specifically
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  because it's not just this um
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  remembering of the past fondly. It's
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  this treating the past as the correct
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  version of the world that needs to be
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  restored. And that is how Nintendo
• 12:42
  criticism almost always operates.
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  Because I also think that Nintendo I
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  think what you're pointing out here
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  leans into this sort of thing.
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  >> Yeah.
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  >> Because how many Nintendo games like
• 12:51
  that come out now uh when you read the
• 12:53
  reviews there's always something in
• 12:55
  there like and for the fans you're going
• 12:57
  to walk away pretty happy because
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  there's always it feels like these
• 13:02
  moments that are like this part for the
• 13:05
  real heads out there because you think
• 13:07
  about like Donkey Kong Bonanza which not
• 13:09
  only hey spoilers for the ending of
• 13:11
  Donkey Kong Bonanza. Not only is it a
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  call back and a throwback to Super Mario
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  Odyssey, which at this point is 10 years
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  old, right? And being like, "Hey, you
• 13:20
  remember this when you were in college
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  or or you know what I mean? Like when
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  you were playing this game? Oh my gosh,
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  what were you doing 10 years ago? Now
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  you got a kid. Now you're now you're
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  married." Whatever.
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  >> But it also is like, and we're bringing
• 13:31
  it back to Donkey Kong. What world
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  there? What was the first? No, not
• 13:36
  world.
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  >> 64.
• 13:37
  >> 64. Yes. I'm so sorry. I'm not a Donkey
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  Kong scholar. Apologies.
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  >> 64. It's country. It's country. That's
• 13:44
  what Okay. When you said 64, I was like,
• 13:46
  that's not right. But I also don't know
• 13:47
  that much.
• 13:48
  >> 64. For me, it's [laughter] 64. Yeah.
• 13:49
  >> To the the point of it though is it's
• 13:51
  like not only is it just throwing back
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  to like the OG, right? Like way back
• 13:56
  when. It's also throwing back to like 10
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  years ago and saying like your fandom
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  for this thing across your entire life
• 14:02
  has been worth it.
• 14:04
  >> Has all been worth it.
• 14:06
  >> Yeah. It's it's funny, too, and I think
• 14:08
  um pretty much a every single Critical
• 14:10
  Error episode is has this um undertone
• 14:13
  of could you be more curious? Could you
• 14:16
  be more curious? Especially in your
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  criticism. Yes. Because I think that
• 14:20
  >> um you brought up Donkey Kong Bonanza. I
• 14:22
  was actually thinking about our kind of
• 14:23
  recent conversations about Mario Tennis
• 14:25
  Fever going in the opposite direction
• 14:27
  because you see kind of how Donkey Kong
• 14:30
  Bonanza takes this curve at the end of
• 14:32
  the game to
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  >> um appeal to and approach this thing you
• 14:37
  remember.
• 14:39
  And then I think you see how maybe Mario
• 14:41
  Tennis Fever creates dissonance in the
• 14:44
  Nintendo fan by going away from the
• 14:48
  cultural memory of the what the Mario
• 14:50
  sports game is supposed to be. So, uh,
• 14:53
  criticism largely when you read reviews
• 14:55
  of Nintendo games, I think, um, and this
• 14:58
  is this is true, I think, across the
• 15:00
  board, um, are maybe less engage engaged
• 15:03
  with this question of what is this game
• 15:07
  trying to do
• 15:08
  >> and are more engaged with this question
• 15:10
  of can I measure the distance? How close
• 15:13
  is this to the Nintendo that I remember?
• 15:16
  >> Yeah, it's so funny. We talked about
• 15:18
  this a little bit in our uh bonus
• 15:20
  episode for this week.
• 15:21
  patreon.com/critical
• 15:23
  error if you're interested. Uh become a
• 15:25
  member of the nation to start hearing
• 15:27
  our weekly bonus episodes. We talked
• 15:28
  about the idea of Pokemon and how uh in
• 15:31
  returning to Pokemon Fire Red Leaf
• 15:33
  Green. Um you can sort of see that. Look
• 15:36
  at him. He's too good. He's simply too
• 15:38
  good. Um in returning to Pokemon Fire
• 15:40
  Red Leaf Green and then like playing
• 15:41
  something like ZA or playing something
• 15:42
  like Pokemon Sword and Shield or not
• 15:44
  Sword and Shield. Um Scarlet Violet.
• 15:46
  Yes, Scarlet and Violet. Um, something
• 15:48
  changed with these iterations and
• 15:51
  there's like it's a copy of a copy of a
• 15:53
  copy of a copy and what you started with
• 15:54
  and what you ended with are a little bit
• 15:56
  different. And I think that Nintendo
• 15:57
  games tend to do this a lot where you
• 16:00
  hope that the next Mario game is going
• 16:03
  to be iterating on the next like 3D
• 16:05
  Mario game is going to be iterating on
• 16:07
  the things that they did in Odyssey, the
• 16:09
  things that they did in Bowser's Fury,
• 16:11
  right?
• 16:12
  And then when you eventually track it
• 16:14
  all the way back to uh Mario 64, you can
• 16:17
  say, "Okay, I see how we got there." But
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  at the end of the day, these are
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  slightly different games that have
• 16:23
  eventually morphed into different
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  things. But when you take something like
• 16:26
  Mario Tennis Fever, which is like, "Hey,
• 16:27
  we're stepping away from that and we're
• 16:29
  doing this other thing." I do think that
• 16:31
  people tend to not like that because it
• 16:34
  is a different flavor. It's a different
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  thing than than what they were
• 16:37
  expecting. And I think there is a a
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  dissonance there for a lot of Nintendo
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  fans.
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  >> 100%. And I think what I personally am
• 16:43
  kind of pushing back against is that I
• 16:45
  find the space to be overcrowded with
• 16:47
  lineagebased readings.
• 16:49
  >> Yeah.
• 16:50
  >> And how this is kind of upheld as the
• 16:53
  most important way of analyzing the
• 16:55
  game. Take it all the way back to when
• 16:56
  we discussed the reviews for Donkey Kong
• 16:59
  Bonanza was is the only way to
• 17:01
  understand and interpret that game by
• 17:04
  bringing up at some point Super Mario
• 17:06
  Odyssey.
• 17:07
  >> Yeah. Literally Critical Error episode
• 17:08
  one.
• 17:09
  >> Episode one.
• 17:09
  >> Episode one. [laughter] So it's just
• 17:11
  this funny thing where you find that
• 17:15
  this is again largely upheld as the
• 17:17
  correct way to analyze a game which
• 17:20
  creates this culture.
• 17:22
  >> Yes. This is where it all comes back to.
• 17:23
  Yes. of understanding Nintendo is this
• 17:26
  practice of of creating a narrative that
• 17:31
  you can uphold in social media posts and
• 17:33
  on YouTube content or whatever it is of
• 17:35
  Nintendo and creating this again it's
• 17:38
  like it's like almost fictional
• 17:39
  narrative of who this company is so that
• 17:42
  you can understand like the why of every
• 17:46
  video game
• 17:47
  >> because it doesn't just stop to your
• 17:48
  point at the game review right it
• 17:50
  doesn't just stop at playing Nintendo
• 17:53
  sorry Donkey Donkey Kong Bonanza and
• 17:54
  going like, "Wow, this this game is like
• 17:56
  paying homage to this my entire fandom
• 17:59
  of Donkey Kong for 25 plus years." you
• 18:02
  know, I don't know when Donkey Kong
• 18:04
  whatever came out, but like it's not
• 18:06
  just doing that because then now when
• 18:08
  you are looking at Nintendo as a whole,
• 18:10
  you're reading what it's doing a little
• 18:11
  differently and you're reading it as
• 18:13
  like, well, no, they appreciate my
• 18:14
  fandom because look at what they do in
• 18:16
  their games and so they appreciate when
• 18:19
  I, you know, when then we we get to all
• 18:22
  celebrate Mario Day together because
• 18:24
  they know they're they're doing it for
• 18:26
  for me, for the fans.
• 18:27
  >> Wow. And then it's it's it's what we
• 18:29
  were saying before, what we advocate for
• 18:31
  in every single episode of this podcast.
• 18:34
  >> Maybe be a little bit more curious.
• 18:35
  Maybe ask that simple question of who's
• 18:39
  saying this and why? Do they really? And
• 18:42
  you know, I'm not saying that they don't
• 18:43
  appreciate their fans. Of course, they
• 18:46
  wouldn't have a company if they didn't
• 18:48
  have people buying their stuff, you
• 18:49
  know, enjoying their fandom, whatever.
• 18:51
  But there's a certain level of, hey,
• 18:55
  this is just like a big marketing beat,
• 18:56
  right, that comes with this sort of
• 18:59
  thing that I feel like is often under uh
• 19:01
  discussed and under underexamined.
• 19:04
  >> Yeah. And I think even outside of the
• 19:06
  marketing, Pete, you the beat you you
• 19:08
  see that in the in the game itself there
• 19:10
  there is an argument to be made. I think
• 19:12
  that the finale to Donkey Kong Bonanza
• 19:15
  is trying to communicate that the person
• 19:18
  who remembers who King K Rule is and
• 19:21
  thinks that King K's Rule showing up is
• 19:23
  cool is important. That is the kind of
• 19:26
  fan that you should be. You should be
• 19:28
  somebody that knows this history and
• 19:29
  that it means something to you. And I
• 19:31
  think that what is lost there is this
• 19:33
  question of okay, but in the game, King
• 19:37
  Krule showing up here, what is that
• 19:39
  doing? What does that mean? And for me,
• 19:42
  someone who has no [ __ ] history with
• 19:44
  Donkey Kong with with the Kong himself
• 19:46
  really outside of like Smash Bros and
• 19:48
  like seeing him in things, uh I have no
• 19:52
  reference for King Krule, right? So even
• 19:55
  so if he does come like for me it
• 19:58
  wouldn't really do anything cuz I'm
• 19:59
  [laughter] like okay like I guess I know
• 20:01
  who that is. Of course, he's in Smash,
• 20:03
  but like sure, I guess, but I'm not
• 20:06
  going to feel like any sort of major
• 20:08
  payoff because I don't think the game
• 20:10
  leads to that really. Uh uh I know
• 20:13
  people would maybe argue with me about
• 20:15
  that, but personally, I just don't feel
• 20:16
  like it does as someone who's just not
• 20:18
  that familiar with Donkey Kong.
• 20:19
  >> Well, it's just a funny thing, right?
• 20:20
  Because it's like how many how many like
• 20:22
  movies have you watched in which you are
• 20:25
  kind of like chasing an enemy the entire
• 20:28
  time and then you get to the end and the
• 20:31
  old enemy comes out of the ground and
• 20:34
  says forget about that guy.
• 20:36
  >> I'm the enemy now for no real reason.
• 20:39
  [laughter]
• 20:40
  It's and listen I know that even by
• 20:42
  saying that I'm going to have people
• 20:44
  arguing now but um it's it's I think
• 20:47
  that there is this I what I'm what I'm
• 20:49
  saying is I I'm not asking people to be
• 20:50
  critical of that moment. I'm asking
• 20:52
  people to simply examine and yes, argue
• 20:55
  for or against that moment based on what
• 20:58
  is happening in the game rather than
• 21:01
  this kind of like it's for the fans
• 21:04
  outside of the game logic because that's
• 21:06
  that's all that's all fine and good, but
• 21:08
  I would like to focus our criticism of
• 21:10
  the game on the on the game
• 21:12
  >> because it's it's like what you're
• 21:14
  saying is it's fine to like that and
• 21:15
  it's fine to even be a Donkey Kong fan
• 21:17
  and be like, "Oh my gosh, they're paying
• 21:18
  like like it's it's a character I know
• 21:20
  and and they're back Are there good ways
• 21:22
  to bring King K rule back and bad ways
• 21:25
  to bring K King Kroll back? Surely yes.
• 21:27
  Surely the answer is yes. So like So can
• 21:29
  we can we add a measurement in there of
• 21:32
  like how we judge when that return is
• 21:36
  deployed in a way that is like
• 21:38
  satisfying and revoly versus when that
• 21:40
  choice is deployed in a way that maybe
• 21:42
  feels cheap.
• 21:43
  >> And you know what? You know what's
• 21:44
  interesting about this is I know that
• 21:45
  people are capable of having these
• 21:47
  conversations because they've seen
• 21:49
  happening recently uh with Marvel,
• 21:51
  right? Because [laughter] bring this up
• 21:53
  as well. Yeah.
• 21:54
  >> You look at the way that um for the I
• 21:57
  don't know at this point like I guess
• 21:58
  I'm just going to say this is like a
• 22:00
  broad statement so don't like hold me to
• 22:01
  this. Uh like
• 22:05
  before like Endgame and before like I
• 22:08
  feel like a lot of the times when they
• 22:09
  would bring a character back there was
• 22:11
  sort of this intentionality to it. there
• 22:13
  was a character, there was like a a oh
• 22:14
  my gosh, the story was leading in this
• 22:16
  direction and now this character is here
• 22:17
  and it's like oh it makes sense and and
• 22:19
  it all built to this sort of moment
• 22:22
  and when those characters showed up or
• 22:24
  when those characters did those things
• 22:26
  there was a payoff to a story that was
• 22:28
  being set up. wasn't just fan service in
• 22:30
  my opinion, but then now it feels like,
• 22:33
  and this seems to be at least from what
• 22:35
  I've noticed online, the uh prevailing
• 22:38
  view is they're just like bringing
• 22:40
  people back just to bring them back.
• 22:42
  Like I'm sure like there was this viral
• 22:44
  video a few years ago. It was like,
• 22:46
  "Hey, if you rewatch Spider-Man No Way
• 22:49
  Home, the last one where Andrew Garfield
• 22:51
  and Tobey Magcguire show up, like it's
• 22:54
  really awkward because you can see that
• 22:55
  these movies were designed for people to
• 22:57
  like pop off, but there's no real like
• 22:59
  build to it. It's just it's just, hey,
• 23:01
  here's a character, you know, or even
• 23:03
  when they show John Krosinski shows up
• 23:05
  as Mr. Fantastic and whatever movie that
• 23:07
  was, like there's no real reason that
• 23:09
  you should be excited for this character
• 23:11
  other than you as a fan know who this
• 23:13
  is."
• 23:13
  >> Okay, I've thought a lot about this.
• 23:15
  Please.
• 23:15
  >> So I think that Marvel films have
• 23:19
  trained audiences to treat knowledge of
• 23:22
  the larger universe as social currency.
• 23:24
  >> This is true. Yes.
• 23:25
  >> So when the end credit scene appears,
• 23:27
  there is you imagine this person in the
• 23:29
  theater who leans over to their friend,
• 23:31
  hits them on the shoulder and says,
• 23:33
  "Hey, that character is from this is who
• 23:35
  this character is." And suddenly that
• 23:37
  person becomes important in this moment
• 23:39
  because they possess knowledge that
• 23:40
  other people don't have. And that
• 23:42
  dynamic exists all across video game
• 23:45
  culture. So even just like even just
• 23:48
  using the Mario movie as an example,
• 23:50
  Wart is in that movie, [laughter]
• 23:52
  >> dog. Everyone's talking. I can't believe
• 23:53
  Luis Guzman is Wart. Wart. I'm like I
• 23:56
  got Who the [ __ ] is Wart? who's dude and
• 23:58
  and that's the thing is I think that
• 24:00
  Nintendo fandom has created a very
• 24:02
  similar system where knowing things
• 24:04
  becomes a performance and people gain
• 24:07
  status by recognizing obscure
• 24:09
  references, old history um uh like
• 24:13
  internal development details and we can
• 24:14
  even extend this to people speculating
• 24:16
  about future pro uh or projects because
• 24:19
  the discourse starts to revolve around
• 24:21
  demonstrating knowledge rather than
• 24:24
  interpreting the work. And I think to
• 24:26
  your point, which by the way, Wart of
• 24:28
  course is the central antagonist of Ume
• 24:31
  Kojo Doyoki Panic, which as we all know
• 24:36
  >> is Super Mario Bros. 2.
• 24:37
  >> That's right. [laughter]
• 24:40
  >> Thank you for that. Now, now you've just
• 24:43
  I've become the guy who I was afraid of.
• 24:46
  Um, but no, but to your point though,
• 24:48
  then also, so you have the guy leaning
• 24:49
  over and saying, "Hey, that's actually
• 24:51
  from Moonnight." Now you have people who
• 24:53
  are like, "Well, [ __ ] I want to know
• 24:55
  about Moonnight and I want to be the guy
• 24:57
  who is able to then lean over to my
• 24:59
  friends during in the theater at at the
• 25:01
  end of Donkey Kong Bonanza to say that's
• 25:03
  actually King K rule." And I know this
• 25:04
  because I've recently played all of the
• 25:06
  Donkey Kong video games. And it's like
• 25:10
  now this is then just circled back in on
• 25:12
  this being good for Nintendo because you
• 25:13
  have people who are like, "Okay, well,
• 25:14
  who is this character? Let me go check
• 25:16
  out these games. Let me check out this
• 25:17
  thing." And it creates this entire
• 25:19
  culture surrounding well we got to talk
• 25:21
  about Donkey Kong the ending of Donkey
• 25:23
  Kong Bonanza and now it's going to sell
• 25:25
  copies of Mario Odyssey because me who's
• 25:27
  never played it I played it but like me
• 25:29
  if if I played Donkey Kong Bonanza and I
• 25:30
  was like what was that I got to see I
• 25:31
  got to check that out that looked cool
• 25:33
  now I'm playing Donkey Kong Super Mario
• 25:35
  Odyssey and it all just circles back you
• 25:37
  know
• 25:38
  >> of course and I think that um something
• 25:40
  that is an easy kind of counterattack to
• 25:44
  a lot of what we talk about on this
• 25:46
  podcast is just the like well that isn't
• 25:49
  bad and and I would
• 25:51
  >> it's not like sinister
• 25:54
  >> and I think that often times our issue
• 25:56
  is less about um how like intrinsically
• 26:01
  bad performing a particular social
• 26:03
  function is and it's more about the lack
• 26:05
  of diversity within the space and that
• 26:07
  everybody's kind of doing the same thing
• 26:09
  because um again kind of taking it back
• 26:12
  to to craft terminology there's like the
• 26:15
  open text which would
• 26:17
  um like a book that invites
• 26:19
  interpretation. And then there would be
• 26:21
  the a kind of reading that could be
• 26:23
  called the closed encyclopedic reading.
• 26:26
  And this is the understanding of the
• 26:28
  work becomes an exercise in cataloging
• 26:30
  references. And I think that the
• 26:33
  Nintendo fandom has a high propensity to
• 26:37
  kind of drift into this encyclopedic
• 26:39
  mode. So you find that Nintendo
• 26:41
  Discourse is almost entirely focused on
• 26:45
  um lore, franchise lineage, development,
• 26:49
  rumors, and marketing and release
• 26:51
  strategies because possessing
• 26:53
  [clears throat] this knowledge is what
• 26:54
  grants you authority in conversation. So
• 26:57
  >> the the act of talking about Nintendo is
• 27:00
  really largely concerned with performing
• 27:03
  expertise and is rarely ever um about
• 27:06
  the games themselves. you there's really
• 27:08
  never this kind of like close reading of
• 27:10
  what does this game mean. It's it's more
• 27:13
  like did you like to put it in its most
• 27:16
  basic terms, did you catch that
• 27:17
  reference?
• 27:17
  >> Yes, 100%. And I I think that um to your
• 27:21
  point here,
• 27:22
  >> it's not bad that those conversations
• 27:25
  exist. However, what I think does become
• 27:28
  bad is if these are the only
• 27:29
  conversations that are allowed to exist
• 27:31
  within these spaces. That's when it
• 27:33
  starts to shut down the idea of
• 27:35
  discussing art for what it is and being
• 27:38
  able to critically evaluate and discuss
• 27:41
  um different aspects of it because I
• 27:43
  mean how often like have we seen and I
• 27:45
  think maybe we touched on this a little
• 27:46
  bit in the like let people enjoy things
• 27:48
  episode. I was like no it's fine to
• 27:50
  enjoy the ending of Donkey Kong Bonanza.
• 27:53
  I'm not like there's nothing morally
• 27:55
  wrong or anything like that to seeing
• 27:57
  that and getting joy out of that and
• 27:59
  saying like oh this was great. Nothing
• 28:00
  wrong with that. But
• 28:03
  the second that there are conversations
• 28:05
  about like, "Oh, this actually doesn't
• 28:06
  work as as like a as an individual game
• 28:08
  or as a story or whatever, then you have
• 28:11
  a lot of people showing up and saying
• 28:12
  like, hey, actually it does because of
• 28:14
  this." And it's like, "No, no, no. These
• 28:16
  are separate conversations." Well, and
• 28:17
  it's funny too because I think even the
• 28:19
  conversation that you're imagining is
• 28:21
  even that is pretty rare because I find
• 28:23
  that kind of the cottage industry of the
• 28:27
  Nintendo content creator, the Nintendo
• 28:29
  poster, the Nintendo YouTuber is um
• 28:33
  almost entirely concerned with being an
• 28:36
  online Nintendo expert. And the
• 28:38
  conversations are when the game comes
• 28:41
  out, it is the least interesting it will
• 28:43
  ever be because we're mostly talking
• 28:46
  about when I think I think listeners
• 28:49
  will resonate with this. I think like
• 28:50
  what Nintendo is about to do, why they
• 28:53
  made a certain marketing decision, how
• 28:56
  many uh copies a game will sell, uh
• 28:59
  these are the conversations that I think
• 29:01
  are most prominent in kind of like the
• 29:03
  Nintendo online space. And these
• 29:06
  conversations again lack um a unique or
• 29:10
  human perspective and they are almost
• 29:12
  entirely boiled down to pattern
• 29:14
  recognition and speculation. So we said
• 29:16
  last week in regards to like remakes and
• 29:19
  stuff how uh you know industry
• 29:21
  discussion of of why games are made and
• 29:24
  how games are made is a completely
• 29:25
  separate beast and actual like art
• 29:27
  criticism and art and like evaluating
• 29:29
  art. Um they're different conversations.
• 29:30
  I'm not saying one is easier than the
• 29:32
  other. I'm saying that one has requires
• 29:33
  a different skill set
• 29:35
  >> and um
• 29:38
  and and not to again not to say that
• 29:39
  there aren't people who are doing good
• 29:40
  analytical work out there because there
• 29:42
  absolutely are. But it feels like so me
• 29:44
  so much of uh like video game analysis
• 29:46
  of of uh like industry analysis boils
• 29:50
  down to just broad speculation, right?
• 29:53
  And exactly what you said. There's a
• 29:54
  video that you and I both watched and we
• 29:56
  talked about a lot where uh it was about
• 29:58
  Metroid Prime 4, which as we all know
• 30:01
  was a game that was in development for
• 30:02
  [ __ ] ever um [laughter] forever. And
• 30:05
  then it finally comes out and it's this
• 30:07
  game and at the end of this video uh
• 30:09
  this this uh creator is sort of talking
• 30:11
  about like so what's next? And he was
• 30:14
  basically like honestly
• 30:16
  I'm just kind of done. I'm just done
• 30:18
  with Metroid Prime 4. Like I finished
• 30:19
  the game and now I'm like ready to just
• 30:20
  like move on with my life. It's it's
• 30:22
  like occupied my mind for so long and
• 30:23
  now that it's finally here I played it
• 30:24
  and I'm I'm good. I'm ready to move on.
• 30:26
  And what I find so fascinating about
• 30:28
  that is that you, not you, but like like
• 30:32
  people spent so long speculating about
• 30:35
  this video game, talking about what it
• 30:37
  could be, talking about when it's going
• 30:38
  to be coming out, the release date, the
• 30:39
  price, is it going to be on the Switch
• 30:41
  2? Is it going to be just on the Switch
• 30:42
  one? Is it going to be an exclusive?
• 30:43
  What's it going to be? Like all of this
• 30:45
  stuff. And then the game comes out, and
• 30:48
  then 3 weeks later, the conversation
• 30:51
  seems to be, we've played it, what's
• 30:53
  next? It's exactly what you're saying.
• 30:55
  so much more revolving around marketing
• 30:57
  strategy and and speculation about the
• 31:00
  industry than it actually is about
• 31:02
  talking about and playing the games.
• 31:03
  >> There are two answers to why this
• 31:06
  happens. I'm not going to say which one
• 31:07
  it is. I'm just going to say that for
• 31:09
  every listener, I think that they have
• 31:10
  to decide what they think it is.
• 31:12
  >> Okay.
• 31:12
  >> Um the first option is simply that these
• 31:16
  games are maybe not as charged with
• 31:20
  meaning as we want them to be. Maybe the
• 31:22
  the truth is is that we build up as
• 31:25
  great works of art, but then when they
• 31:27
  are um when we interrogate them with
• 31:30
  rigorous examination, they simply don't
• 31:32
  hold up in that way. The other answer is
• 31:35
  that we um that it is simply too hard,
• 31:38
  that we do not have the tools, that we
• 31:40
  are uninterested in doing the work of
• 31:42
  understanding the art in front of us.
• 31:44
  And we are much more interested in this
• 31:46
  work of cataloging and referencing and
• 31:48
  pointing and demonstrating mastery of
• 31:51
  understanding over something that can
• 31:53
  never actually be read because it
• 31:55
  doesn't actually exist. because it's
• 31:56
  it's maybe maybe
• 31:59
  the interesting part of something like
• 32:00
  Metroid Prime 4 is making the wiki
• 32:03
  >> and maybe the interesting part of
• 32:05
  Metroid Prime 4 is not playing the game
• 32:07
  and talking about it,
• 32:09
  >> you know. Um I like to I like to it kind
• 32:11
  of just because I I don't know. I I I've
• 32:14
  got to do something with all of the
• 32:15
  nonsense I had to read in grad school.
• 32:17
  And I hope sometimes when I reference
• 32:19
  things people will take that as like an
• 32:20
  invitation to look it up and read
• 32:21
  further. I've I've got something I'm
• 32:23
  thinking about now and I I think I'm
• 32:24
  actually butchering this reference. So,
• 32:25
  apologies if if this takes three or four
• 32:28
  Googles away from what I'm saying, but
• 32:29
  there's this um this I think it's Pierre
• 32:31
  Bayard, but it's like this uh this ex
• 32:34
  illusion of explanatory mastery, and
• 32:36
  it's this argument that revolves around
• 32:38
  how people I love this. I always thought
• 32:40
  this was so compelling when I heard it
• 32:42
  for the first time. Um people almost
• 32:44
  always believe that they understand
• 32:47
  systems way more deeply than they
• 32:49
  actually do.
• 32:50
  >> That was that was his argument. and and
• 32:52
  he talks about um this in terms of like
• 32:55
  books and historical events and um
• 32:57
  institutions that they're a part of. And
• 32:59
  I think that now in the kind of internet
• 33:02
  age, there is a degree to which this
• 33:04
  tendency is amplified because when
• 33:07
  somebody speaks confidently about
• 33:09
  business strategy or marketing
• 33:11
  decisions, it can sound really
• 33:12
  authoritative online, even if it's just
• 33:14
  kind of guesswork. Um, and I think that
• 33:18
  that's like being this person is more
• 33:22
  important than like understanding the
• 33:24
  game and having a meaningful connection
• 33:26
  to it because if you have a meaningful
• 33:28
  connection to something, it inherently
• 33:30
  is a more singular experience. It is it
• 33:33
  is you now have to do the work of um
• 33:36
  explaining or justifying or arguing why
• 33:39
  your perspective is important to others.
• 33:41
  Why is what you think about this video
• 33:43
  game more important than than than you
• 33:47
  know than anything else that this person
• 33:48
  could be reading? Whereas the person who
• 33:50
  is the Nintendo expert, you know exactly
• 33:53
  why it's important to listen to them
• 33:54
  because you want to know what's coming
• 33:57
  out next.
• 33:58
  >> Yeah.
• 33:59
  >> Yeah. And it's I think that Nintendo uh
• 34:03
  wants this to happen.
• 34:05
  >> You know what I because then they can
• 34:06
  sell the Hierro Histori, you know,
• 34:09
  whatever other book that they want to
• 34:10
  sell and it is full of information that
• 34:15
  sometimes does not line up with what the
• 34:17
  Nintendo fan has. And now what do we
• 34:19
  have? We have discourse. People are
• 34:20
  talking about it. And I'm not saying
• 34:21
  they intentionally do that, but I am
• 34:23
  saying that like now people are buying
• 34:24
  the Hyrule Histori or whatever and
• 34:26
  trying to figure out what the heck's
• 34:27
  going on with all this. I don't know.
• 34:29
  Does that make sense about how this like
• 34:30
  culture surrounding needing answers then
• 34:33
  also sells video games and sells merch
• 34:35
  and whatever else because people are now
• 34:37
  like I need well if I need to be the one
• 34:40
  with the answers it means I need to play
• 34:41
  the games and then we can have these
• 34:43
  conversations but in order to do to do
• 34:45
  that everyone else needs to buy these
• 34:47
  games. Definitely. And I think Nintendo
• 34:49
  has done a really good job of kind of
• 34:51
  making knowing about their games and
• 34:53
  knowing all of this stuff a kind of
• 34:56
  marker of one's personal identity. And
• 34:58
  you you see you see the same thing with
• 35:00
  I I feel like we're all kind of familiar
• 35:01
  with the concept of the Disney adult.
• 35:04
  >> And yes.
• 35:05
  >> Yeah. And we're we're kind of I think in
• 35:07
  the video game space unwilling to have a
• 35:10
  similar charge at maybe the Nintendo
• 35:12
  adult.
• 35:13
  >> I you know here's my question.
• 35:15
  >> Okay. Why is that? Is it because like is
• 35:19
  it because the idea of like calling
• 35:22
  someone a Disney adult feels a little
• 35:24
  mean? And [clears throat] for I mean
• 35:27
  it's it's it is a little mean, right?
• 35:29
  And so is it just that like the idea
• 35:30
  that saying someone is like a Nintendo
• 35:32
  adult just feels a little mean and for
• 35:35
  whatever reason we just are are less
• 35:36
  interested in in doing that than we are
• 35:38
  to random Disney people.
• 35:41
  >> I would say Disney has more social
• 35:43
  capital than being a gamer than being
• 35:44
  Nintendo. So it it feels kind of more
• 35:46
  like punching up and there is kind of
• 35:48
  this universal acknowledgement that like
• 35:50
  we we all do enjoy these Disney movies.
• 35:52
  So whereas I I don't think video games
• 35:54
  are quite there. So there is that
• 35:56
  element of like um feeding into this
• 35:59
  gamer anxiety over this is you're saying
• 36:02
  that this is a thing for children.
• 36:03
  >> Yeah. Uh do you I wonder too if and I'm
• 36:06
  speaking in broad strokes and and so
• 36:08
  this might be entirely 100% incorrect
• 36:10
  but I wonder too if um we're fine with
• 36:13
  saying that because
• 36:16
  uh uh when like when I think of like
• 36:18
  stereotypical like Disney adult uh
• 36:20
  usually it's like a woman whereas like
• 36:23
  Nintendo adult is like a man.
• 36:25
  >> Huh. Okay. And there might I think there
• 36:27
  might just be preconceived notions of
• 36:28
  whatever, you know, but like to me I
• 36:30
  like that's where I comes to and I'm
• 36:32
  like I wonder if like maybe we're just
• 36:33
  more comfortable saying like oh it's
• 36:34
  like a like it's for women and women
• 36:36
  like things women like are stupid. You
• 36:38
  know what I mean? I say we you and me
• 36:40
  but like
• 36:41
  >> I just I wonder if there's a there's
• 36:43
  some sort of connotation to that there.
• 36:44
  >> Sure.
• 36:44
  >> Yeah. I think that's that's probably
• 36:46
  true. I didn't I didn't have that by
• 36:47
  that that like um impression, but now
• 36:50
  that you say that it totally makes sense
• 36:51
  to me just because so many of the you
• 36:53
  know Disney next word princess
• 36:55
  >> Exactly. Yes. Yeah, of course it's not
• 36:56
  to say that people of all genders,
• 36:59
  whatever can are can be Disney adults
• 37:00
  and everything, but just like I think
• 37:01
  like in my mind, again, maybe that's
• 37:04
  preconceived whatever, but um
• 37:06
  >> the kind of element that I'm that I'm
• 37:09
  thinking about now with this Nintendo
• 37:10
  discourse is um Nintendo Magic and when
• 37:15
  people bring that up
• 37:16
  >> and I I think we've all kind of like
• 37:18
  heard this before. It's like, oh, it's
• 37:19
  got that Nintendo magic. And I never
• 37:22
  thought about this until this
• 37:23
  conversation, how like people say the
• 37:25
  exact
• 37:25
  >> the same thing about Disney. This whole
• 37:27
  thing is magic. It's like And it's so
• 37:30
  interesting too cuz like uh when we talk
• 37:31
  about like Disney magic, we're not we're
• 37:34
  not talking about like the things that's
• 37:35
  in the movies, right? We're talking
• 37:36
  about like uh the way that their theme
• 37:40
  parks make you feel. And that's
• 37:41
  something that Nintendo is trying to
• 37:42
  emulate now too with their theme parks.
• 37:44
  And do they open that Donkey Kong one or
• 37:46
  is it just the Mario ones don't? Yeah,
• 37:47
  [clears throat]
• 37:48
  >> cuz like
• 37:49
  >> they're trying to get in there, you
• 37:50
  know? They're trying to expand even
• 37:51
  bigger and bigger and bigger and these
• 37:53
  movies like I have to imagine this this
• 37:55
  Mario movie is going to be one of the
• 37:57
  biggest of the year if I had to guess,
• 37:59
  right? I mean,
• 38:00
  >> I think so. I actually went to the
• 38:02
  movies the other day. I forget what
• 38:04
  Sarah and I went to go see, but we were
• 38:06
  going into the movie and there was some
• 38:08
  kids movie that was getting let out as
• 38:10
  we were going in and uh these like two
• 38:13
  theaters across from each other. And I
• 38:14
  remember a kid came out and he saw the
• 38:15
  poster for the Mario Galaxy movie and he
• 38:18
  was like, "Mario Galaxy? Wow. And the
• 38:21
  mom was like, "It's not out yet. We
• 38:22
  can't see it. We'll come back. We'll
• 38:23
  come back and we'll see it." And I was
• 38:24
  like, "Damn, that was nice. That was
• 38:25
  good. That was cute." That was good. It
• 38:27
  was Yeah, I think that's fake.
• 38:28
  >> I'm not plugged into the animated movie
• 38:30
  scene at all. Really? Uh, is the Mario
• 38:34
  Galaxy movie the GTA 6 of animated films
• 38:38
  where it's like all these other movies
• 38:39
  like we got to get out of the way. We
• 38:40
  got to get out of the way. We got to get
• 38:41
  out of the way.
• 38:42
  >> Yeah, I think so. And I think uh
• 38:43
  >> right
• 38:44
  >> I think there are a lot of elements in
• 38:45
  that Mario Galaxy movie that are going
• 38:47
  to like play really well to today's
• 38:50
  audience. I don't know. I feel like they
• 38:51
  can just do a lot with like Yoshi kind
• 38:53
  of the the deployment of like the little
• 38:56
  fun creature almost in like a Star
• 38:57
  Warsesque way.
• 38:59
  >> Uh yeah, that's really familiar. So I
• 39:01
  think that'll be good. I just went and
• 39:02
  saw Hoppers Pixar. Really like that. It
• 39:04
  was good.
• 39:05
  >> Oh yeah. I you you mentioned that turn
• 39:08
  the people turn into a gopher.
• 39:10
  >> Oh my gosh. Can I be honest with you?
• 39:12
  >> Or a beaver.
• 39:13
  >> That's that's a prem that's a Jake
• 39:14
  Steinberg ass premise that you would
• 39:16
  love to see.
• 39:17
  >> I'm a beaver. [laughter]
• 39:20
  >> So, okay, here's like like to return to
• 39:23
  it a little bit then. So, like
• 39:27
  what do we do? Because like we were
• 39:29
  saying, it's not something that's like
• 39:30
  so sinister, right? It's not like
• 39:32
  Nintendo has tricked everyone and now
• 39:34
  they're what? Like I think it's it's as
• 39:36
  sinister as a company trying to get
• 39:38
  people to buy things can be, right? But
• 39:41
  like is there something that needs to
• 39:43
  change? Is do we just need to re reframe
• 39:45
  the way we're having conversations by
• 39:46
  being a little bit more curious and a
• 39:48
  little bit more open to understanding
• 39:49
  like hey this is a marketing beat and
• 39:50
  whatever. So I think that like in as it
• 39:54
  comes to when it comes to Disney movies
• 39:56
  this conversation isn't quite as
• 39:58
  exhaustive because I think that the
• 39:59
  channels exist for like actual critique
• 40:01
  of Disney movies that is completely
• 40:03
  separate from this this very like
• 40:05
  influencer motivated Disney culture.
• 40:08
  Yeah. Yeah. I would say the same thing
• 40:09
  exists with Marvel movies. I would say
• 40:11
  it's
• 40:12
  >> We talked about this uh as I was working
• 40:14
  on the script for my latest video about
• 40:16
  like Call of Duty, but how like of
• 40:17
  course there's like the Call of Duty
• 40:18
  influencer and there's like the Xbox fan
• 40:20
  influencer and whatever else, but then
• 40:22
  there's also like it is expected that
• 40:25
  like the video essaist is like writing
• 40:28
  about the new Call of Duty campaign and
• 40:29
  how it's about imperialism and all this
• 40:31
  stuff. And like that's like a part of it
• 40:32
  that's like expected and it doesn't feel
• 40:34
  like that exists for a lot of Nintendo
• 40:36
  stuff, does it?
• 40:37
  >> No, I I completely agree. I think it
• 40:39
  largely does not. I think the state of
• 40:40
  Nintendo crit criticism is pretty dire
• 40:43
  and I think that the answer to that is
• 40:45
  not I'm not really looking at anybody
• 40:47
  that is currently operating in the space
• 40:49
  and saying you should do something
• 40:50
  different.
• 40:51
  >> Yeah.
• 40:51
  >> Except for one group that I'll touch on
• 40:53
  in a second. But I'm what I'm really
• 40:55
  what I really am interested in is kind
• 40:56
  of the inspiring the next generation of
• 40:59
  people to kind of um close read and
• 41:02
  critically analyze Nintendo games and
• 41:04
  not kind of do this thing of like
• 41:07
  >> you know sometimes I do this on my
• 41:08
  streams and stuff and I I get that
• 41:09
  occasional person that's like
• 41:11
  >> you're reading too much into this you
• 41:13
  are this is for kids or whatever and
• 41:16
  that I think is a thorn and that is a
• 41:18
  barrier that we need to get past. But I
• 41:20
  think we largely recognize now that
• 41:22
  that's on that person. Yeah. Well,
• 41:23
  because it's this thing about like, you
• 41:25
  know, like Avatar the Last Air Bender is
• 41:28
  for kids, right? But it's also something
• 41:30
  that you could read into and be able to
• 41:32
  discuss as a great piece of art, you
• 41:34
  know? So, like, is it wrong to do that?
• 41:36
  Are you looking too deep into Avatar the
• 41:38
  Last Airbender? I don't think anyone
• 41:39
  would make that argument, you know? It's
• 41:41
  Yeah, that's on them, right? Yes. Now,
• 41:44
  the one group that I alluded to that I
• 41:46
  am kind of looking at and saying maybe
• 41:47
  you should change something is the kind
• 41:49
  of modern discourse merchant that exists
• 41:52
  largely on Twitter and uh is constantly
• 41:55
  commenting on the Nintendo space. Maybe
• 41:56
  they're also a YouTube content creator.
• 41:58
  I don't know. But it is the kind of
• 42:00
  person that I think is perpetually
• 42:02
  engaged with this like weird negative
• 42:05
  Nintendo online discourse. This can um
• 42:09
  this can on both ends of the spectrum.
• 42:10
  This can appear in the form of an
• 42:13
  aggregate account that is collecting all
• 42:16
  of the review scores for the Nintendo
• 42:19
  game and you know maybe showing them in
• 42:21
  a certain way or even just presenting
• 42:23
  the scores divorced from the words that
• 42:25
  were written about these games which
• 42:26
  maybe feels a little bit um manipulative
• 42:29
  in a certain way and kind of uh entirely
• 42:32
  divorced from the point of even doing a
• 42:34
  review to begin with. That's off to the
• 42:35
  side. But then there's maybe the um the
• 42:38
  person who thrives on the constantly
• 42:41
  complaining about the state of Nintendo.
• 42:43
  This is a this is a big thing right now
• 42:45
  in the Nintendo content creation space.
• 42:48
  The the larger discourse is centered
• 42:50
  around 2026 is a bad year. I'm not
• 42:54
  interested in any of these Nintendo
• 42:56
  games coming out. It I knew this would
• 42:57
  surprise you is is the the the lineup
• 43:00
  weird. There's there's nothing for me.
• 43:02
  This is what I've been seeing
• 43:03
  everywhere. I'm I'm telling you, you're
• 43:05
  not going to believe me, but a lot of
• 43:06
  our listeners right now are listening to
• 43:08
  me and they're going, "Yes, that is what
• 43:10
  people are saying. That is what people
• 43:11
  are saying."
• 43:11
  >> That's bizarre. I don't know. That's
• 43:14
  crazy to me. A lot of this orbits very
• 43:16
  what I would call degenerative discourse
• 43:18
  that is concerned with pricing.
• 43:19
  >> Yeah, sure. And, you know, stuff like
• 43:21
  that. And
• 43:22
  >> again, because it comes back to the fact
• 43:23
  that like it's a lot uh uh we maybe I
• 43:27
  don't want to say it's not easier, just
• 43:28
  a different skill set, right? But like
• 43:30
  to actually sit down and talk about the
• 43:31
  games and the merits of the games is a
• 43:33
  skill set that requires like time and
• 43:35
  understanding and like like all of these
• 43:37
  things and it's a lot easier to just be
• 43:40
  like $80.
• 43:42
  >> Well, and I frankly wonder how much
• 43:46
  these Nintendo online prognosticators
• 43:48
  even enjoy Nintendo games. Maybe the
• 43:53
  thing that they enjoy is being a poster
• 43:55
  and maybe the thing that they enjoy is
• 43:57
  pretending at being an authority because
• 43:59
  I think if you are looking at this slate
• 44:00
  of Nintendo games that maybe came out
• 44:02
  end of last year, beginning of this year
• 44:04
  and you are [clears throat] looking at
• 44:05
  the Switch 2 lineup and you are saying
• 44:06
  there is nothing here for me. I am I am
• 44:10
  not sure you like video games. I'm not
• 44:12
  sure
• 44:13
  >> cuz it's and that's also not to say that
• 44:15
  like you have to like all of them but
• 44:16
  like nothing. None of them. Not one. Not
• 44:19
  one. Especially considering that like in
• 44:22
  over the course of the last couple of
• 44:23
  months just in addition to like
• 44:25
  something very recent like Popia, sure
• 44:27
  maybe that's not your kind of game, but
• 44:29
  is like Resident Evil Reququum your kind
• 44:31
  of game? Is Mario Tennis Fever your kind
• 44:33
  of game? What exactly is your kind of
• 44:36
  game? Does it have to be like what is
• 44:38
  the the frequency at which games have to
• 44:40
  release that are your kind of game for
• 44:42
  you to be satisfied? It's a very odd
• 44:44
  thing, right? Because maybe maybe you
• 44:47
  like Mario Kart World, maybe you like
• 44:48
  Donkey Kong Bonanza, maybe you like I
• 44:50
  don't know whatever else. When do those
• 44:52
  games hit the time limit where it's
• 44:54
  like, "Okay, I enjoyed those. I like
• 44:56
  that that now I need another one." Is it
• 44:58
  one month, two, three? When do you go,
• 45:00
  now I need another one?
• 45:02
  >> Well, I mean, I think this, you know,
• 45:03
  ties a little bit back into what we were
• 45:04
  talking about with like Metroid Prime 4
• 45:05
  where it's like played it for 3 weeks
• 45:07
  and then it's like cool, what's what's
• 45:09
  next? And it's like
• 45:11
  >> replay that or like I don't know. Like
• 45:13
  >> I just don't know, frankly. Maybe maybe
• 45:15
  I'm a glazer. I don't know. I don't know
• 45:16
  how you look at like Nintendo's output
• 45:18
  in their software lineup and compare it
• 45:20
  to literally anything else happening in
• 45:22
  the video game space and go that's a
• 45:25
  problem. I just don't
• 45:26
  >> cuz it's Yeah, it's it's
• 45:28
  >> I I don't get I don't get it. I don't
• 45:30
  know what everybody else is putting out
• 45:31
  that everybody is so enamored with to be
• 45:33
  honest with you. So I Yeah, it's it's
• 45:36
  Yeah. C
• 45:36
  >> can I tell you about a lineup though
• 45:38
  that uh I think is indisputably
• 45:40
  excellent?
• 45:41
  >> Oh, hit me. I would like to tell you
• 45:43
  about the critical error nation, Jake.
• 45:46
  patreon.com/critical
• 45:48
  error. You can join the nation to get
• 45:51
  our bonus episodes of which we publish
• 45:54
  every single week. This week, Jake and I
• 45:58
  ran into some problems in our lives that
• 46:00
  potentially were going to get in the way
• 46:01
  of us sitting down here. And yet, what
• 46:03
  are we doing? We're talking to you.
• 46:05
  We've got that bonus episode. There are
• 46:08
  what 30 plus bonus episodes over there
• 46:11
  for your listening pleasure which you
• 46:13
  can access again patreon.com/critical
• 46:15
  error. I would like to give a giant
• 46:17
  shout out to the members of the Jake and
• 46:20
  Peter tier. That is the $20 tier at the
• 46:22
  top of our Patreon. I'm talking about
• 46:24
  Andrew Bulkar. I'm talking about Evan
• 46:26
  Snee. I'm talking about Mo. I'm talking
• 46:28
  about Robert Castada. Thank you so much
• 46:32
  for supporting us financially. It means
• 46:34
  so much to Jake and I. Jake, looks like
• 46:37
  you're getting emotional looking at the
• 46:39
  members of the Critical Era royalty.
• 46:40
  >> I am. I am. And I think that uh you
• 46:43
  know, for the $10 and up supporters,
• 46:45
  every week we play a recording and I
• 46:47
  think that this is I think this is going
• 46:48
  to be an emotional one. So, let's let's
• 46:51
  go ahead and play this out.
• 46:52
  >> I want to hear it right now. Yeah.
• 46:54
  >> Connor True Love Shin
• 46:58
  Kale Chow Andrew Bulkar. No, Pinky Oats.
• 47:04
  Sam Woods, James Pierre Reed,
• 47:08
  Danny,
• 47:10
  Disaster,
• 47:12
  Mero,
• 47:14
  Robert Kada. No, no, no, no, no, no.
• 47:17
  Cole,
• 47:19
  Jared Kuseno, Mitch D,
• 47:24
  Jacob Richter,
• 47:26
  Anel, Trade, Thick, Dick, Mystic, and
• 47:30
  Evan Sne. Jake, at the end of our
• 47:32
  podcast every single week, one of us
• 47:34
  approaches the show with something
• 47:37
  pre-written to share. Um, we love to
• 47:40
  write. We love to share our writing with
• 47:42
  each other and with you listening, which
• 47:43
  by the way, subscribe on YouTube. We are
• 47:46
  like three people away from hitting a
• 47:48
  thousand subscribers.
• 47:49
  >> We actually hit it. We have it.
• 47:50
  >> Do we really? Are you kidding me? Oh my
• 47:53
  gosh. Thank you. Thank you for
• 47:55
  subscribing. That's so cool. Um, but if
• 47:57
  you're not subscribed, you're still
• 47:58
  welcome. We would love to We would love
• 48:00
  to have you. Um, but Jake, I would love
• 48:02
  to hear the pre-written piece you have
• 48:04
  for us today.
• 48:05
  >> Yeah, it's funny. Um, we don't always,
• 48:07
  you know, oftentimes these pieces are
• 48:08
  unrelated to what we talked about. Uh,
• 48:10
  this one is this one is profoundly
• 48:12
  related. So, uh,
• 48:13
  >> it's nice. We're we're gaming right now.
• 48:15
  Both of us are playing games and we're
• 48:16
  having a good time. So, I would love to
• 48:18
  hear it.
• 48:18
  >> Um, this is a piece in progress. Um,
• 48:21
  it's actually going to be much larger
• 48:23
  than this. So, this is really more of a
• 48:25
  preview. And uh eventually I'm going to
• 48:27
  do some editing, some cleaning up, and
• 48:28
  uh jakeyberg.substack.com.
• 48:31
  But here's what we will be discussing
• 48:33
  today.
• 48:36
  You are the lore master.
• 48:41
  You have a large following online.
• 48:44
  People follow you because you are an
• 48:46
  authority in the fandom. You have
• 48:48
  memorized background information. You
• 48:50
  can identify a reference on sites. You
• 48:52
  know the names of minor characters,
• 48:54
  unused assets, and obscure details from
• 48:57
  games released before you were born.
• 49:00
  When a new game appears, your boots are
• 49:02
  on the ground. Screenshots and
• 49:05
  screenshots and clips get posted to your
• 49:07
  accounts. Your audience watches because
• 49:10
  you can explain what everything means
• 49:12
  and tell them why this thing is so
• 49:14
  important. and you can do it faster than
• 49:17
  anyone else.
• 49:19
  While promoting
• 49:21
  the Super Mario Galaxy movie, Brie
• 49:23
  Larson said,
• 49:26
  >> "When I watched the movie, it was almost
• 49:28
  just like this sensory overload of like
• 49:31
  everything I've ever loved and played
• 49:32
  and watched throughout my whole life. I
• 49:35
  just felt bombarded by all the
• 49:37
  references. And every single frame is
• 49:40
  just filled with references.
• 49:46
  In Pokemon fandom, there is Joe Merik.
• 49:49
  Merrick runs Sarah.net,
• 49:52
  one of the largest Pokemon fan sites in
• 49:53
  the world. When a new game releases, the
• 49:55
  expectation is that the new site that
• 49:57
  the site will catalog everything as
• 49:59
  quickly as possible. The race is to know
• 50:02
  first, and Sarabe knows first. A recent
• 50:05
  profile described him as more dedicated
• 50:09
  than you will ever be to Pokemon. And
• 50:12
  the evidence is simple. He has skipped
• 50:14
  life events and parties when Pokemon
• 50:16
  news might drop. He checks for updates
• 50:18
  the moment he wakes up. And he will
• 50:20
  argue with anyone online when it comes
• 50:22
  to being correct about information
• 50:24
  surrounding Pokemon or its associated
• 50:26
  companies.
• 50:28
  A few days after Pokemon Picopia
• 50:30
  launched, he posted on Twitter, "And
• 50:32
  that's credits for Pokemon Picopia.
• 50:34
  After almost 30 hours of gameplay,
• 50:36
  absolute masterpiece of a game. Game
• 50:39
  Freak, Koe Techmo, and TPC did an
• 50:41
  amazing job with this one. It bodess
• 50:43
  well for future Pokémon games. This is
• 50:45
  the ultimate Pokémon fan. It would be
• 50:48
  ridiculous to suggest that anyone
• 50:50
  understands Pokémon better than him. You
• 50:53
  can find the answer to any question you
• 50:55
  have on sarab.net.
• 51:00
  And then I arrive in a new area.
• 51:02
  What is Bleak Beach? Who should I talk
• 51:06
  to? What key items should I be sure not
• 51:09
  to miss? The place itself. Let me tell
• 51:12
  you, it is this long stretch of gray
• 51:15
  shore where weeds the color of bruises
• 51:18
  push up through rusted metal and broken
• 51:21
  concrete. Wind moves through the tall
• 51:23
  grass with a dry whisper, the sound of
• 51:25
  rumaging through old papers.
• 51:28
  Buildings there, they sit half eaten by
• 51:31
  the earth. A stairway leads to nowhere.
• 51:36
  The world here tried so so hard to
• 51:40
  become something else, but it failed.
• 51:46
  I am a ditto, but more importantly, I am
• 51:49
  a ditto pretending to be human. The
• 51:51
  hands I wear are approximations, and my
• 51:54
  feet are guesses. When the grass grows
• 51:57
  too high, I reshape my arms into long,
• 52:00
  flat blades, and I sweep through them.
• 52:03
  The stems of the weeds give way to with
• 52:05
  a soft fibrous sigh. The lands open up
• 52:09
  in small clearings wherever I pass,
• 52:11
  greener than it was before, surely. And
• 52:13
  slowly the place begins to organize
• 52:15
  itself. A planter I move it two steps to
• 52:18
  the left. A bench slides back right
• 52:20
  against the wall. A row of flowers form
• 52:22
  a line right along a path. The world
• 52:25
  begins to settle into squares, a grid
• 52:27
  that makes sense to the human picture in
• 52:30
  my mind. These are little Tetris blocks
• 52:33
  of order snapping together across the
• 52:35
  beach. A place that someone might
• 52:38
  recognize as home.
• 52:41
  See, the islands in Picopia have been
• 52:43
  abandoned by humans. Only the Pokémon
• 52:45
  are here now. But the work continues.
• 52:47
  The paths are swept. Gardens are
• 52:49
  watered. The buildings, they must be
• 52:51
  repaired. As if the next boat might
• 52:53
  appear at any moment on the horizon. As
• 52:55
  if a human might step onto the dock and
• 52:57
  say, "Yes, this is it. exactly how I
• 53:00
  left it. So, I trim the grass a little
• 53:03
  closer. I straighten a crooked sign. I
• 53:05
  sweep the sand from the steps of a
• 53:07
  building that no longer has a door. And
• 53:09
  somewhere along the way, it becomes
• 53:11
  clear what kind of creature I am in this
• 53:13
  place. I am a dog waiting for my owner
• 53:15
  to come home,
• 53:17
  a note appears in front of me one day,
• 53:19
  tangled in the branches of a tree that
• 53:23
  doesn't remember how to grow leaves
• 53:24
  anymore. The paper is thin but stiff
• 53:27
  with age.
• 53:29
  We managed to track down the renowned
• 53:31
  Kenzo, owner of the largest building in
• 53:34
  the area for a special interview. "My
• 53:37
  family has dreamed of constructing a
• 53:39
  building here for generations," said a
• 53:41
  tearful Kenzo with Machamp by his side.
• 53:44
  Machamp also helped with the
• 53:46
  construction.
• 53:49
  I read the note again.
• 53:52
  A family dreaming of a building for
• 53:54
  generations. Machamp lifting beams into
• 53:57
  place. Pride in the weight of it all.
• 54:00
  The stone, the steel. The sense that if
• 54:02
  something large enough were built here,
• 54:04
  large enough, solid enough, strong
• 54:06
  enough, we could anchor the future, the
• 54:09
  unforeseen future into place. But the
• 54:12
  beach one, the beach has swallowed that
• 54:15
  building. Now the weeds have instead
• 54:18
  inherited this dream. But here I am. I
• 54:21
  still move the benches. I cut the grass.
• 54:23
  I arranged the world into shapes that
• 54:26
  might make sense to someone who is no
• 54:29
  longer here. I hope I pray for the
• 54:32
  twisting of the door knob, the prattling
• 54:34
  of the front steps, this animal logic.
• 54:39
  I am my own dog.
• 54:42
  Thank you. Okay,
• 54:46
  >> I like this. I dude, can I say uh uh
• 54:51
  being like I'm a dog waiting for the
• 54:53
  master to come home.
• 54:58
  >> That's what it is, man. That's what it
• 54:59
  is. That's how that's how I feel. That's
• 55:01
  how I feel in this game.
• 55:02
  >> And it's like the the
• 55:05
  >> you are you are the dog that has taken
• 55:07
  the shape of a human literally in this
• 55:09
  game.
• 55:10
  >> You are the the ditto that is like I am
• 55:11
  approx an approximation of the human.
• 55:13
  And there is this sense in you in
• 55:16
  rebuilding these towns and going through
• 55:17
  these environments that are destroyed to
• 55:20
  make them not a town for Pokémon, but
• 55:23
  the town that is recognizable to humans
• 55:26
  in the hopes that the humans will
• 55:28
  return.
• 55:29
  >> So, can I ask you a question? Um, as
• 55:32
  someone who is just a little bit less
• 55:33
  familiar with Pokemon. So, when you get
• 55:36
  to what was it, the beach? It was like
• 55:38
  Desolate Beach or something. What was it
• 55:39
  called?
• 55:39
  >> It is called I wrote it down. Bleak
• 55:42
  Beach. Bleak Beach.
• 55:43
  >> Mhm.
• 55:43
  >> Is that something that is that is
• 55:45
  recognizable in Pokemon or is that like
• 55:47
  something new?
• 55:48
  >> So, it's Vermillion City.
• 55:50
  >> Got it.
• 55:50
  >> Um, and the key to this is and this will
• 55:53
  be expanded on is the note that I read
• 55:56
  here the building that making that
• 55:59
  building with the Machamp, right? M
• 56:01
  >> um when you go to Vermillion City, you
• 56:02
  can actually find in Pokemon Fire Red
• 56:04
  and Leaf Green that there's an NPC there
• 56:06
  and he has a machop and he says, "We're
• 56:08
  [clears throat] building something here
• 56:10
  and it's just an empty plot of land."
• 56:12
  >> Yeah.
• 56:12
  >> And we've never really known what he was
• 56:14
  building or what he was doing there. And
• 56:16
  this piece of lore hit the internet and
• 56:20
  Peter, I cannot tell you the virality of
• 56:23
  this. Finally,
• 56:24
  >> we know what he was [laughter] building.
• 56:27
  Let me let me let me read the note to
• 56:28
  you again. Yeah,
• 56:29
  >> my family has dreamed of constructing
• 56:33
  >> a building.
• 56:36
  >> Can't believe it.
• 56:37
  >> We finally know what he was building.
• 56:40
  >> And and that's that is the meaning that
• 56:42
  has been gained from this moment. The
• 56:44
  meaning has been in the reference in the
• 56:46
  oh my god, this was the guy and he was
• 56:49
  here and now we have evidence that it's
• 56:51
  connected and that's what makes it
• 56:53
  powerful. And when you examine work that
• 56:55
  way, you are um doing this thing where
• 56:58
  you're examining it out of context.
• 57:00
  You're cutting it out.
• 57:01
  >> Yeah.
• 57:01
  >> And you're Yeah.
• 57:02
  >> But because it's like that's like the
• 57:03
  least interesting way to examine it,
• 57:05
  right? Cuz it's it's like, "Okay, cool.
• 57:06
  Now we know that he was building a
• 57:08
  building." And I guess we all just like
• 57:09
  look at each other and go like, "Nice."
• 57:10
  And then just move on as opposed to
• 57:12
  saying like, "Okay, but what did that
• 57:14
  mean?" And did they build it? They they
• 57:16
  must have, right? And it's analysis that
• 57:19
  is entirely focused, I think, on um mass
• 57:24
  consumption because there is no unique
• 57:27
  perspective or identity in that
• 57:28
  analysis. It's just pointing.
• 57:30
  >> Yeah.
• 57:31
  >> Yeah. That's so interesting. Uh uh and
• 57:33
  and it's funny that this seemed to line
• 57:36
  up so well with what we talked about in
• 57:39
  in this episode, right? About the idea
• 57:42
  that, okay, you can be a, you know, a a
• 57:44
  walking encyclopedia for Pokemon. You
• 57:45
  can be in a walking encyclopedia of
• 57:47
  Metroid or or whatever Donkey Kong, but
• 57:51
  at the end of the day, like that's great
• 57:52
  and there's nothing wrong with that, but
• 57:54
  like what if we applied it? What if we
• 57:57
  what if we took that and took it one
• 57:59
  step further
• 58:00
  >> and did some actual real analysis and
• 58:02
  trying to understand things? Because it
• 58:03
  feels like so many like I'm talking I'm
• 58:05
  thinking about like YouTube videos. Um
• 58:07
  cuz that's where like I encounter the
• 58:09
  bulk of this sort of thing where it's
• 58:10
  like a video that'll be like let's just
• 58:12
  say Piccopia lore and analysis and the
• 58:15
  lore is that building there was built by
• 58:18
  a Machamp or Machamp whatever
• 58:20
  >> correct
• 58:21
  >> and the analysis is
• 58:22
  >> Mhm. it was a reference to Vermillion
• 58:25
  City in Fire Red Leaf Green or the, you
• 58:27
  know, red and blue or green or whatever.
• 58:30
  And it's like, no, no, that's actually
• 58:31
  not analysis. That's also lore. That
• 58:33
  that's just like wider lore. Because
• 58:36
  then the analysis is okay, but what did
• 58:38
  that what happened here? And and what
• 58:40
  does that tell us about the rest of the
• 58:41
  world? And what does that tell us about
• 58:42
  this isolated story? And how does it
• 58:45
  connect to the larger story? Um, yeah,
• 58:48
  fascinating. I think I would maybe in
• 58:50
  the future like to do an episode about
• 58:51
  lore too because I think that maybe lore
• 58:53
  as a concept is one that is widely
• 58:54
  misunderstood. I don't think I don't
• 58:56
  think people can largely interpret the
• 58:58
  difference between just background
• 59:00
  information and lore and world building.
• 59:02
  I think that these are all kind of the
• 59:03
  same thing to people. So I maybe would
• 59:04
  like to dig into that in the future. But
• 59:06
  um but yeah, I so I came across that
• 59:08
  that note um online. And it was a social
• 59:11
  media post that kind of went very wide
• 59:13
  and it was a somebody who was streaming
• 59:14
  the game and they found the note and
• 59:15
  they kind of had this like very
• 59:17
  emotional reaction where they were like,
• 59:18
  "Oh my god, this is huge. This explains
• 59:21
  everything." And I found that to be and
• 59:23
  maybe this is ungenerous of me, but I
• 59:24
  found it to be largely performative. I
• 59:26
  found it to be um I just don't believe
• 59:28
  >> how huge can it be to find out that the
• 59:30
  guy building something was building a
• 59:31
  building in a city.
• 59:32
  >> It Yeah, it's hard, right? It's hard to
• 59:34
  make that real in my heart. And um just
• 59:37
  to give you to to give listeners a a
• 59:39
  preview and maybe some encouragement to
• 59:40
  check out the full essay when it's
• 59:41
  posted. Um I found this delightful
• 59:44
  little quote from Shingerro Miiamoto
• 59:46
  from the 80s
• 59:47
  >> that I think speaks to this in a way
• 59:48
  that I found I find fascinating. So um
• 59:52
  1989 interview with uh with Miiamoto.
• 59:56
  This starts a little in a way that's a
• 59:58
  bit scandalous. So I'm going to ask
• 59:59
  everybody to hold their breath for the
• 1:00:00
  first sentence.
• 1:00:01
  >> Oh my gosh.
• 1:00:03
  When pornography escalates, it
• 1:00:06
  eventually crosses into the grotesque.
• 1:00:08
  >> Miamoto said this.
• 1:00:11
  >> So, let me start.
• 1:00:12
  >> What a different I'm sorry. What a very
• 1:00:13
  different approach to that company, huh?
• 1:00:16
  >> Yeah. So, let me let's start from the
• 1:00:18
  top now that we're all ready. Now,
• 1:00:19
  >> no, no, no. We No, hold on. [laughter]
• 1:00:21
  I'm just imag Like now, can you imagine
• 1:00:23
  if they're like, "Myoto son, what do you
• 1:00:25
  you know, uh the the Mario World the
• 1:00:28
  theme park is open. What do you think
• 1:00:30
  when pornography escalates?" Sorry.
• 1:00:32
  [laughter]
• 1:00:33
  Sorry. Continue, Jake. Please.
• 1:00:36
  >> When pornography escalates, it
• 1:00:37
  eventually crosses into the grotesque. I
• 1:00:39
  think the world of hidden secrets in
• 1:00:42
  games has almost reached the same
• 1:00:43
  grotesque level. It It's reached a point
• 1:00:46
  where it is not measured by common sense
• 1:00:48
  anymore. It's just people getting bored
• 1:00:50
  and looking for stronger and stronger
• 1:00:52
  stimulation. We have hit a wall. When
• 1:00:54
  you're at the point when you where you
• 1:00:56
  have no choice but to go grotesque, you
• 1:00:58
  have to start thinking of new ways to
• 1:01:00
  use the medium.
• 1:01:02
  >> Dog, this is an insane quotation. This
• 1:01:05
  is an insane quotation. Not only because
• 1:01:07
  of that first sentence there, which
• 1:01:08
  obviously is wild for Nintendo,
• 1:01:10
  >> hitting on something,
• 1:01:11
  >> but but for for them to say that
• 1:01:13
  specifically about saying like like,
• 1:01:15
  "Hey, if that's all you got, then you
• 1:01:16
  got to find something else. You got to
• 1:01:18
  find something else." That's crazy for
• 1:01:21
  them to said that.
• 1:01:22
  >> I know. Cuz can you imagine if they said
• 1:01:24
  that now?
• 1:01:25
  >> No, dude. That's almost that's almost a
• 1:01:27
  like a a disavowing of of sorts of the
• 1:01:30
  Nintendo YouTuber.
• 1:01:32
  >> Well, not only that, dude, but just like
• 1:01:34
  hold that quote that I just read in
• 1:01:37
  context
• 1:01:39
  with the Brie Larson quote that I just
• 1:01:42
  read.
• 1:01:42
  >> Can you read it again? Can you read what
• 1:01:43
  what he said?
• 1:01:46
  >> The Miiamoto quote.
• 1:01:47
  >> Yeah.
• 1:01:47
  >> Okay. Because this is quite good. Okay.
• 1:01:50
  So when pornography escalates, it
• 1:01:52
  eventually crosses into the grotesque. I
• 1:01:54
  think that the world of hidden secrets
• 1:01:56
  in games has reach has almost reached
• 1:01:58
  that same grotesque level. It has
• 1:02:00
  reached a point where it is not measured
• 1:02:02
  by common sense anymore. It is just
• 1:02:04
  people getting bored and looking for
• 1:02:06
  stronger and stronger stimulation. We
• 1:02:08
  have hit a wall. When you're at the
• 1:02:09
  point where you have no choice but to go
• 1:02:12
  grotesque, you have to start thinking of
• 1:02:14
  new ways to use the medium.
• 1:02:16
  >> Absolutely insane. Especially with what
• 1:02:18
  you're saying with framing it around
• 1:02:19
  that Brie Larson quote, which is just
• 1:02:22
  exactly how people are are consuming
• 1:02:23
  these games now. Just reference,
• 1:02:24
  reference, reference, reference. What's
• 1:02:25
  the reference? What's the reference?
• 1:02:26
  What's the reference? Oh, in the in the
• 1:02:28
  distance I can see the bee world from
• 1:02:31
  Mario Galaxy. And I I find it to be so
• 1:02:34
  like
• 1:02:36
  that is one of those quotes that I've
• 1:02:38
  I've never been this like miamoto
• 1:02:40
  evangelizer.
• 1:02:41
  >> Sure.
• 1:02:41
  >> But that to me is a quotation that I'm
• 1:02:44
  like, "Oh,
• 1:02:46
  what a thinker. What a what a little
• 1:02:48
  what a mind at work here because there's
• 1:02:51
  so much going on there. This this idea
• 1:02:52
  that like stimulus is really exciting
• 1:02:54
  the first time, right? The first time
• 1:02:56
  you clock a reference, it's like, "Oh,
• 1:02:58
  that's really okay. That's that's
• 1:02:59
  satisfying to me." But over time, the
• 1:03:02
  the audience kind of being trained to
• 1:03:04
  participate in this performance of
• 1:03:06
  stimulus. So, the creator then has to
• 1:03:09
  make it more and more extreme to achieve
• 1:03:11
  the same effect. and he uses the
• 1:03:13
  pornography comparison I think like um
• 1:03:16
  violence you could see like in a Mortal
• 1:03:18
  Kombat game how violence ends up turning
• 1:03:20
  into something that like isn't even
• 1:03:22
  violent anymore because it goes so
• 1:03:24
  extreme
• 1:03:25
  performance of violence instead. So the
• 1:03:28
  escalation uh it doesn't produce
• 1:03:31
  something meaningful. It just produces
• 1:03:32
  something excessive. Yeah,
• 1:03:34
  >> that's that's again insanity that that
• 1:03:38
  Nintendo has said that and that's like
• 1:03:39
  an on the record quote from from them
• 1:03:41
  just again given where where they're at
• 1:03:43
  and and the type of culture that I think
• 1:03:45
  that they um lean into and and uh
• 1:03:49
  encourage, I think.
• 1:03:50
  >> Yeah. So, it's funny because I think
• 1:03:52
  that this culture has formed around
• 1:03:53
  Nintendo where originally that there
• 1:03:55
  there was maybe this delight in
• 1:03:56
  encountering something that was rare or
• 1:03:58
  surprising. um warp zones in Super Mario
• 1:04:01
  Brothers, the secret rooms in Zelda. And
• 1:04:04
  I think um
• 1:04:05
  >> or like a hidden character in a fighting
• 1:04:06
  game is what comes to mind for me, I
• 1:04:08
  think. Sure. Sure.
• 1:04:08
  >> But now I think as this culture has been
• 1:04:11
  allowed to grow, and now I do think it
• 1:04:13
  has become excessive, you find things
• 1:04:15
  like here's a secret that requires a
• 1:04:17
  32page instruction booklet on how to get
• 1:04:19
  to it. Um this is a secret designed for
• 1:04:22
  the internet to solve collectively. This
• 1:04:24
  is um the pleasure is not
• 1:04:27
  on discovery anymore. Whereas it once
• 1:04:29
  was, the pleasure is now on this kind of
• 1:04:31
  like act of decoding which trains a kind
• 1:04:34
  of person to decode rather than
• 1:04:36
  interpret.
• 1:04:37
  >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, hey, thanks for
• 1:04:39
  writing that and thank you for listening
• 1:04:42
  to this. You can get additional episodes
• 1:04:45
  of our podcast on patreon.com/critical
• 1:04:48
  error by becoming a member of the
• 1:04:50
  critical error nation. We've had a
• 1:04:52
  handful of people join over the past uh
• 1:04:54
  week or so, which was very exciting to
• 1:04:56
  see. Sounds like people are interested
• 1:04:58
  in maybe our Fire Red Leaf Green
• 1:05:00
  episode, which we did last week. Here's
• 1:05:02
  a little spoiler. Uh, this week's
• 1:05:04
  episode is also more on Fire Red Leaf
• 1:05:06
  Green. Uh, not all of it, but uh, it is
• 1:05:09
  a it is more on those games. So, if
• 1:05:11
  you're interested in that,
• 1:05:11
  patreon.com/critical
• 1:05:14
  error. Thank you for helping us get to
• 1:05:16
  1,000 subscribers. Thank you for uh to
• 1:05:19
  Jake for showing off his Primeape right
• 1:05:21
  there.
• 1:05:21
  >> Oh, yes.
• 1:05:23
  >> He's so good. He's so good.
• 1:05:25
  >> Yeah. All right, y'all. We will catch
• 1:05:26
  you next week.
• 1:05:27
  >> Bye.