Latest / Inside Politics / Anthony Albanese's exclusive interview on 'progressive patriotism' and his thumping mandate

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Anthony Albanese's exclusive interview on 'progressive patriotism' and his thumping mandate · Inside Politics

0:01
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:04
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
0:07
S1: Jacqueline Maley. It's Wednesday, May 14th. Today we bring you
0:12
S1: a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
0:15
S1: of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
0:19
S1: I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
0:22
S1: his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
0:26
S1: new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
0:33
S2: Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
0:36
S2: you for having time to talk to us. Good to
0:38
S2: be here. And so soon after the formation of your
0:41
S2: new ministry. And just as you head off on some
0:44
S2: important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I thought
0:48
S2: we would start with one of the things that you're
0:51
S2: heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass for
0:54
S2: Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week as
0:57
S2: an important moment for you to go and meet world leaders,
1:00
S2: but it also has an important aspect of faith. And
1:04
S2: you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to your
1:06
S2: mother in her life, and I wanted to ask about
1:09
S2: that as an opening question. How important is your faith
1:14
S2: in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
1:17
S3: I think these issues are a matter of your own
1:21
S3: development as well, and it's a part of who I am,
1:24
S3: my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements I
1:29
S3: made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate was
1:34
S3: that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something that's
1:38
S3: a part of how I was raised in the Catholic
1:41
S3: faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly vulnerable people.
1:47
S3: I believe in a separation of church and state. So
1:51
S3: I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to do
1:56
S3: an affirmation because I think that as the Australian Prime Minister,
2:01
S3: I represent people of every faith and no faith. And
2:06
S3: so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other people
2:09
S3: who swear on the Bible or the Koran in Ali's case,
2:14
S3: is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice. But
2:18
S3: for me, that's a personal choice that I make and
2:23
S3: have made. But I say I was raised with three
2:26
S3: great faiths the Labor Party, South Sydney and the Catholic Church,
2:29
S3: and it will be an incredible honour for me to
2:34
S3: be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have in my
2:39
S3: office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother sent away
2:43
S3: from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI, who
2:48
S3: visited Australia, of course, and went to my street, Pyrmont
2:54
S3: Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across the road.
2:57
S3: And that was a great moment in my mum's life,
3:00
S3: I Life. I remember it very deeply, and I still
3:05
S3: have the book that my mum had. All the memorabilia
3:09
S3: from the papal visit at that time is one of
3:12
S3: my cherished possessions.
3:14
S2: There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers. They
3:17
S2: don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
3:19
S2: does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
3:22
S2: is about. Do you think that there is a moral
3:25
S2: purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
3:28
S3: I think there absolutely has to be a moral purpose
3:32
S3: to politics. For me, it's about how do you make
3:35
S3: people's lives better. It's captured in a statement that I
3:41
S3: made many times during the election campaign. No one held back,
3:45
S3: no one left behind. That that is a part of
3:49
S3: our purpose in politics is to make a difference to
3:53
S3: people's lives.
3:54
S1: Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
3:56
S1: was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
4:00
S1: there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
4:04
S1: It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
4:06
S1: the face of the country. I wonder what you think
4:08
S1: the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
4:12
S1: about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
4:16
S1: proves that in a more cosmopolitan world, labor is the
4:19
S1: natural party of government, not your opponents.
4:22
S3: I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
4:27
S3: I think if you look at what we seek to
4:30
S3: represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
4:34
S3: working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
4:41
S3: who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
4:46
S3: the people who many people really need a Labour government
4:51
S3: to make a difference to their lives. I think that
4:55
S3: our destiny is to try to be the natural party
5:01
S3: of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
5:05
S3: of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
5:09
S3: was who was seeking to bring people together and who
5:12
S3: was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
5:16
S3: culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
5:20
S3: people against each other.
5:22
S1: Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
5:25
S1: at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
5:28
S1: centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
5:31
S3: Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
5:35
S3: much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
5:39
S3: a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
5:43
S3: we also very much believe in markets and that markets
5:47
S3: are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
5:53
S3: I believe in a private sector being the key driver
5:57
S3: of growth, but the public sector should step in where
6:00
S3: there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
6:05
S3: as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
6:09
S3: is one way that it's been called. You know, we
6:11
S3: spoke about doing things the Australian way, uh, not looking
6:16
S3: towards any other, uh, method or ideology from overseas to
6:20
S3: try to copy. If we get this right, we can
6:24
S3: be increasingly successful. I look at the caucus, and I
6:29
S3: have very consciously tried to bring in to the caucus
6:32
S3: as well, a broad range of people from different backgrounds.
6:37
S3: We are so much more.
6:38
S1: Than yourself, right? A lot of these caucus members, you
6:41
S1: you played a more hands on role in picking candidates
6:43
S1: than most party leaders.
6:45
S3: Well, I had a focus from 2022 of, uh, where
6:53
S3: are we going to be at in 2025 and work
6:56
S3: our way back rather than just go through? And you've
7:00
S3: got to be a bit like, uh, I guess the
7:03
S3: coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
7:06
S3: in May or June, you win it in September. How
7:09
S3: do you peak in September? How do you get the
7:11
S3: right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
7:14
S3: do you get the right framing so that when it
7:17
S3: really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
7:22
S3: the Australian people going forward? That's something that I did
7:26
S3: from 2019 through to my first term as as opposition
7:32
S3: leader to bring us into government. It's something that we
7:35
S3: consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums internal
7:42
S3: to the party that we engage with as well, not
7:45
S3: just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
7:49
S2: You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
7:53
S2: I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
7:55
S2: I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
7:58
S2: lot of people regard patriotism as a bad thing, you know, because.
8:01
S2: Because it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious
8:04
S2: of that as a factor through the campaign? And is
8:06
S2: it going to be something that guides you now in
8:09
S2: this second term?
8:10
S3: I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
8:15
S3: strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
8:17
S3: apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
8:22
S3: that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
8:28
S3: a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
8:32
S3: who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
8:37
S3: Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
8:41
S3: get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
8:45
S3: should be really proud of. We should be proud of
8:47
S3: what we've created here. And I think in terms of
8:51
S3: the broader global issues as well, that at a time
8:56
S3: where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
8:59
S3: divided on the basis of race or religion. Here in Australia,
9:04
S3: we can be a microcosm for the world. That says
9:07
S3: that we're enriched by our diversity, that we have respect
9:10
S3: for people of different faiths. That we try to bring
9:14
S3: people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas and play
9:19
S3: out that conflict here either. And that's really important. This
9:24
S3: is a project, if you like, that's not just about
9:28
S3: strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the globe
9:34
S3: in how humanity can move forward.
9:39
S2: Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
9:41
S2: and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
9:45
S2: 40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
9:49
S2: So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
9:53
S2: a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
9:56
S2: opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
9:58
S3: Not at all. We're focused, is what we are. And
10:02
S3: we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
10:05
S3: concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
10:09
S3: make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
10:15
S3: you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
10:18
S3: had a plan for more than one term for a
10:22
S3: long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
10:26
S3: that is why so many things that we've set out
10:29
S3: for this term were things that built on what we
10:34
S3: had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
10:37
S3: be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
10:45
S3: the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
10:49
S3: done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
10:52
S3: going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
10:56
S3: in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
11:00
S3: The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
11:06
S3: But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
11:12
S3: re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
11:17
S3: as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
11:22
S3: getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
11:25
S3: given them.
11:25
S2: What do you think of the observation that's been made
11:28
S2: by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
11:31
S2: because of the size of the number of seats that
11:33
S2: you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
11:35
S2: this term, but the next one as well.
11:37
S3: Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
11:42
S3: take anything for granted. And some of those same people
11:44
S3: were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
11:49
S3: I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
11:54
S3: we had for a may election and that we could
12:00
S3: be successful, and we put those measures in place and
12:05
S3: we received the support of the Australian people. I want
12:08
S3: to get our primary vote up higher at the next
12:11
S3: election than we did this time. But if you look
12:15
S3: at the work that we've done, it is significant that
12:18
S3: over a period of time it had been dropping. We
12:21
S3: did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
12:26
S3: And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
12:32
S3: the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
12:38
S3: regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
12:43
S3: to be a good government.
12:44
S2: Did it exceed your expectations?
12:46
S3: I expected us to win a majority government the whole
12:49
S3: way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
12:54
S3: I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
12:58
S3: never saw that as what the outcome would be. The
13:03
S3: outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
13:07
S3: you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
13:10
S3: here and here. But chances are you don't get all
13:13
S3: of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
13:16
S3: the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
13:27
S1: Can I just ask.
13:28
S3: Bullwinkel.
13:28
S1: On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
13:30
S1: of your ministers said that when you would talk about
13:32
S1: those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
13:36
S1: of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
13:38
S1: this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
13:41
S1: it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
13:43
S1: called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
13:45
S3: The evidence is there because I thought we had the
13:48
S3: right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
13:54
S3: I also saw that I know what it takes to
13:58
S3: take an opposition into government. I did serious policies, fully
14:03
S3: costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a series
14:08
S3: of vision statements. I went to the National Press Club regularly.
14:12
S3: I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable, we did
14:16
S3: hard work and I didn't see the opposition doing laying
14:21
S3: that groundwork that you need and thought they would be very,
14:25
S3: very vulnerable during an election campaign. I unusually agreed to
14:31
S3: four debates. Some in my own team said that was
14:38
S3: crazy brave. I think it was the right thing to do.
14:41
S3: I went to the National Press Club. I did all
14:43
S3: of that. And I also thought that the Greens political
14:47
S3: party were vulnerable. I saw that in my local community
14:51
S3: that they had lost their way in blocking Labour's housing
14:56
S3: reforms and not being a party which concentrated on the
15:01
S3: environment and on issues that mattered most to people.
15:05
S1: Just on the on the size of the win. Prime Minister,
15:08
S1: do you feel a sense of and I think there's
15:10
S1: an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
15:12
S1: I think Trump allowed you to project as a center
15:15
S1: left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
15:17
S1: by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
15:20
S1: no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
15:21
S1: that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
15:25
S1: bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
15:27
S1: there a chance that we're overanalyzing the labor win? Because
15:31
S1: the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
15:34
S1: and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
15:36
S3: No, I think that some of the commentariat have, uh,
15:41
S3: looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
15:46
S3: touch last year.
15:47
S1: In the media.
15:48
S3: Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
15:53
S3: serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
15:58
S3: position for a government if you look historically in Australia
16:02
S3: for polls that have been around for a long period
16:05
S3: of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
16:10
S3: we're on 49 is going into an election is a
16:15
S3: strong position for a government. You know, if you're in, uh,
16:20
S3: trying to, uh, get to government, you've got to have
16:24
S3: a narrative, an offer. We had as well, I think
16:30
S3: a record that we were proud of, that we could
16:33
S3: talk about, that people could recognise. The Australian people have
16:37
S3: done it tough, uh, over Covid under the former government.
16:42
S3: And then that due to supply chain issues and a
16:45
S3: range of things, including international factors, led to cost of
16:50
S3: living pressures. People know that we were trying to do
16:53
S3: something about it. Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures
16:58
S3: and we had got inflation down. Dan interest rates starting
17:03
S3: to fall. Real wages up and employment was strong. There
17:08
S3: are a set of economic numbers that are the envy
17:12
S3: of other parts of the industrialized world. So we had
17:16
S3: a good story to tell. We've done that whilst at
17:18
S3: the same time doing major reform. The aged care reforms
17:22
S3: are the biggest reforms this century. The clean energy transformation
17:28
S3: what we're doing on a future made in Australia, the
17:30
S3: childcare reforms, the completion of the National Broadband Network, the
17:35
S3: rolling out of infrastructure projects. We had done a pretty
17:41
S3: comprehensive plan across the range of portfolios that were there,
17:48
S3: but we also had the forward offer that we started
17:51
S3: to roll out from last November with the free TAFE extension,
17:58
S3: with the 20% cut in student debt, and then had
18:01
S3: a series of major announcements, including, the most significant of
18:05
S3: which was strengthening Medicare that we did in Launceston in
18:09
S3: the electorate of bass. And so we had a very
18:12
S3: clear plan. I outlined that to colleagues. I also outlined
18:17
S3: where it would be successful. It's no accident. The major
18:22
S3: announcements that we made prior to the election were being called.
18:26
S3: Were in Stuart, in Griffith, in bass. That's where we
18:31
S3: were thinking that we could be positive in and seats
18:37
S3: like Braddon. There's no doubt in my mind that if
18:39
S3: Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be. Incredibly generous in leaving
18:47
S3: a Senate spot which she wasn't even up for election on,
18:51
S3: to risk running for a seat where Labour was on 42%
18:55
S3: at the last election. She could win that seat. And
18:59
S3: she did with, uh, the largest swing in the country, 15%.
19:04
S2: We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
19:07
S2: But first up on the mandate on what this election
19:11
S2: means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
19:14
S2: but how much flexibility does that give you in being
19:17
S2: bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
19:20
S2: for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
19:23
S2: the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
19:26
S2: of the first term. Do you accept that there was
19:29
S2: some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
19:32
S2: way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
19:35
S2: And will that change in the second term?
19:37
S3: I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
19:41
S3: that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
19:46
S3: The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
19:52
S3: is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
19:58
S3: that green metals will be produced, for Jewish, for example.
20:02
S3: There's nothing timid about that. We intervened in the gas
20:07
S3: and coal markets to put a cap on gas and
20:11
S3: coal prices. If you had of said we were going
20:14
S3: to do that prior to 2022, then some of the
20:17
S3: commentariat would have completely lost any perspective at all. We
20:24
S3: did it firmly, clearly, because it was in the interests
20:27
S3: of the Australian people. We changed our mind for good
20:31
S3: reasons and explained it on the tax cuts to give
20:35
S3: a tax cut to every Australian. We transformed the first
20:40
S3: stage of reforms on childcare. We repaired our relations with
20:46
S3: the world, with China, with Asean, with the Pacific Island Forum.
20:51
S3: We were a government that were ambitious across economic, social,
20:56
S3: environmental and international politics. And we did it in a
21:03
S3: way that attempted to bring people with us wherever possible.
21:08
S3: I mean, we did to note just one example in
21:11
S3: a specific area, the ban on live sheep export. We
21:16
S3: were told some that that would cost us, you know,
21:20
S3: every seat in Western Australia and would cost us dearly.
21:25
S3: The truth is, we've not only held every seat with
21:28
S3: increased margins, most of them are in WA. We've won
21:32
S3: Bullwinkle and have won more. People said that was a
21:36
S3: high watermark for labor in WA. Well, that high water
21:40
S3: mark just rose. And that was a decision where I
21:46
S3: sat down with the industry in my office. I met
21:52
S3: people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we were doing it.
21:56
S3: We had a commitment to do it. We carried it
21:58
S3: out and we won. The argument, if you like, and
22:03
S3: we have a package to bring people with us. And
22:06
S3: hopefully now people will say, okay, this transition is going
22:10
S3: to occur. How do we protect our people as that
22:14
S3: transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs? Because you
22:18
S3: get more jobs from processing sheep meat than you do
22:22
S3: from putting them on a ship and shipping them to
22:26
S3: the Middle East? How do we get advantage of that? But,
22:30
S3: you know, I completely think that, uh, you know, my
22:35
S3: government did what we said we would do in some areas.
22:39
S3: We went further because circumstances changed, like the cap on
22:44
S3: gas and coal prices. But my government is also determined
22:49
S3: to look at what it was that we took to
22:53
S3: the election on May 3rd and to set about implementing
22:58
S3: that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
23:00
S2: Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
23:03
S2: so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
23:07
S2: that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
23:10
S2: that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
23:13
S2: the lead up to the election?
23:15
S3: Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
23:18
S2: Interested in your opinion.
23:19
S3: To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
23:24
S3: the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
23:28
S3: would occur.
23:29
S1: Um, and your expectations, you know.
23:32
S3: Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
23:36
S3: There is no time where I said anything different privately
23:41
S3: from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
23:44
S3: have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
23:48
S3: If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
23:50
S3: what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
23:54
S3: for those people who said that was, uh, playing mind games,
24:00
S3: I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
24:04
S3: France can win this seat. I think she will win
24:07
S3: this seat. And she did.
24:09
S1: And those words on the day. So I'll put my
24:11
S1: hand up on that one. And you told me I
24:12
S1: was silly on the day. Yeah.
24:14
S3: Well, you know. See, I was very direct.
24:17
S2: One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
24:20
S2: News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
24:23
S2: last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
24:25
S2: was out to get you. Do you think they were
24:27
S2: out to get you in that campaign?
24:28
S3: Well, I didn't, uh, I didn't say that. Um, but look,
24:34
S3: people will make, uh, their own judgment as to what, uh,
24:39
S3: some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
24:44
S3: There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
24:50
S3: my job is to do is to go out there
24:55
S3: and put forward, uh, Labor's positive agenda. And I think
24:59
S3: as well that people if there is a consistent view
25:04
S3: coming through and people can have a look themselves at
25:08
S3: what the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
25:13
S3: they take that into account. I think they know that
25:16
S3: that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
25:23
S3: us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
25:29
S3: privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
25:34
S3: known each other for some time. Uh, when I came
25:37
S3: into this building, I didn't come here with an expectation
25:42
S3: of being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps, uh, not
25:47
S3: having that sense of destiny has been one of the
25:50
S3: things that was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number
25:54
S3: of people in the media said to me, you look
25:57
S3: like you're enjoying it. And yeah, I was, uh, I
26:01
S3: loved the campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's
26:05
S3: an opportunity to talk to the Australian people about their future.
26:09
S3: And now our task is to make sure that we
26:13
S3: deliver on that better future. I think that the policies
26:17
S3: that we've put forward across the board are about that,
26:20
S3: and I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to
26:24
S3: be able to deliver it.
26:25
S2: Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
26:27
S2: to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
26:30
S2: appreciate your time.
26:31
S3: Thanks very much.
26:35
S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Karkazis with technical assistance
26:39
S1: from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
26:42
S1: and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
26:44
S1: our podcast as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
26:47
S1: on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.
26:50
S1: To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
26:53
S1: Age or smh.com.au. I'm Paul Sekal, thanks for listening.