Latest / The Price of Music / Interview: Annabella Coldrick, Music Managers Forum chief executive

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Interview: Annabella Coldrick, Music Managers Forum chief executive · The Price of Music

0:07
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, the show that looks at
0:10
the money behind the music industry, with me, Steve Lamack
0:12
and Music Allies head of insight Stuart Dredge this week.
0:16
And this, well, this is partly in response to some listeners
0:19
who we've spoken to have been asking about various facets of
0:23
music management, not least what does it entail and how much does
0:28
it pay? So this week we're chatting to
0:30
Annabella Coltrick, who is chief executive of the Music Managers
0:35
Forum. This is the organization which
0:37
represents the people, those those managers whose task is to
0:41
help and guide their their artists through their careers.
0:45
Which apparently turns out not as easy as you as you might
0:48
think, and also in some cases, not necessarily incredibly well
0:51
paid either. To this end, the MMF has just
0:56
issued a new guide which suggests that that old school
1:00
manager gets 20% of everything model might not be the way
1:03
forward for managers in the future, especially when new acts
1:07
are starting out. Because as we know, 20% of
1:11
nothing is nothing. So what's the alternative and
1:14
what can managers do to make a living in these cash strapped
1:18
times? Here's Annabella.
1:21
Annabella, welcome to the Price of Music.
1:24
Thank you very much for having me.
1:25
Great to speak to you both. Now listen, before we get into
1:29
the the cut and thrust of music management, we always, we always
1:33
like to give our listeners just a bit of context.
1:35
So can can you give us a a very brief sort of history and
1:38
overview of the MMS and what role it actually has?
1:43
Absolutely. So whilst I've been at the MMS
1:45
for nine years, the MMS was actually founded in 1992 at a
1:50
conference in Manchester called In the City that you might both
1:53
remember. I must admit I never got the
1:55
chance to go, but the story I'm told, the epoxial story, is that
1:59
there are about 300 managers in the In the City conference and
2:02
the BPI chair Maurice Oberstein spoke about the introduction of
2:06
a new incoming format which I don't think ever took off.
2:09
It was called the Digital Compact cassette.
2:12
Remember that in 1992. But anyway, apparently it was
2:14
going to be the big new thing and it was going to require lots
2:18
of investment from the record labels.
2:20
And the artist should also help bear the cost of its
2:22
implementation by a reduction in royalty rates to help cover the
2:26
the cost of this. So you can just imagine the
2:29
reaction of the managers. They were all like, not again,
2:31
we're furious. And apparently they stormed
2:34
across the road to a pub and out of that spirit of protest, so
2:38
I'm told the MMS first came together so very much as a kind
2:41
of advocacy organization initially.
2:45
But very quickly I think the managers realised there was a
2:48
role to support not just the kind of fury and advocacy and
2:52
let's try and change the industry, but also kind of
2:55
education, professional standards and development for
2:58
managers at all stages of their career.
3:01
Because they're, it's quite a, a strange profession in a way.
3:04
People fall into it from all kinds of backgrounds.
3:07
I mean, even when I talked to some of our sort of long
3:10
established members, a lot of them just ended up helping out a
3:13
friend or a band at uni and sort of learnt the ropes along the
3:16
way. So we've very much seen our role
3:19
as kind of helping people, yeah, understand the industry they're
3:22
working in, understand how to set up businesses with their
3:26
clients. We have a code of practice of
3:28
standards that managers should adhere to.
3:30
So, you know, being aren't put in the interest of your client
3:33
first, obviously not double dipping, being very clear on
3:37
accounting, all kinds of different elements.
3:41
But yeah, we kind of now straddle those roles.
3:44
So we do education, we help our members stay in touch with
3:47
innovation. So how the industry is always
3:49
changing no matter how long you've been doing it.
3:51
And then we still get very involved in the advocacy.
3:53
So we campaign for on issues like secondary ticketing where
3:57
you help set up the fanfare campaign.
4:00
I'm one of the founders of the Council of Music Makers that
4:03
campaigns for sort of an amnesty on digital royalty rates to
4:07
address the unfairnesses in that area.
4:09
So I mean, you can imagine whenever you get a bunch of
4:11
managers together, that's one of the issues that comes up is
4:15
like, how do we make the industry a bit better?
4:17
So that's why we're collective voice.
4:20
I mean, the, the, the other thing in very simplistic terms
4:23
as well, it's, it must be nice to have somewhere to turn to
4:26
because management, I think can be quite a lonely experience.
4:30
Probably can't say for for some people, because you're, you're
4:33
sat in an office with all the responsibility on your shoulders
4:37
and where, where do you turn? It's all down to to you.
4:40
I think you're absolutely right. And there's often, I think it
4:43
may be less so nowadays, but there certainly was a fear that
4:46
by showing you didn't know something, it was a sign of
4:50
weakness rather than a sign of strength.
4:52
And I think certainly the best managers I've met are those who
4:55
are like, actually, I don't know this.
4:56
Does anyone understand anything about music and gaming?
4:59
Is anyone? I mean, I'm on all these
5:01
WhatsApp chats because we have these accelerator managers like
5:04
a cohort of 20 each year and they're all still asking each
5:07
other questions. Someone was like, Oh, my art has
5:09
been offered to do something. Storm Model Agency.
5:11
Has anyone ever dealt with the modeling world?
5:13
Has anyone ever dealt with this area?
5:15
Oh, I'm touring in Australia for the first time.
5:17
Does anyone know anyone out there?
5:19
And you're right, I think it's people get a real sense of
5:22
relief when they come in and find there is a community that
5:25
they can trust rather than just feeling like, oh, God, it's me
5:28
versus the world. And I do still meet people like
5:30
that. They are a bit like, it's me and
5:32
the band and we're against everything and we're not part of
5:34
the industry, but there is a bit of the God.
5:37
It's cliched, isn't it? But the stronger together,
5:39
Better Together stuff. I'm thinking back to various
5:42
referendum campaigns, you know, You know, But yeah, people
5:47
joining up and kind of, yeah, sharing and sharing the pain as
5:50
well. And sometimes, to be honest, you
5:53
and Steve, that can be about like the difficulties they're
5:55
having with their clients and how challenging that can be, as
5:58
well as the difficulties they're having with the rest of the
6:00
industry. I've been in a couple of pub
6:03
conversations with a few managers when they start really
6:05
dishing the kind of this is what this is what happened and
6:08
they're amazing. I like the the things that they
6:10
have to deal with and the things that they kind of have to put up
6:13
with. Is, is is going to be amazing,
6:16
Can't it? I think what they have to.
6:18
Well, that's the thing. It can be incredibly exciting,
6:20
but there are so few boundaries and we've done a load of reports
6:23
on things like managers mental health and we're like, yes, you
6:25
should sit down, you know, respect yourself as a
6:28
professional that's working with your clients.
6:30
But so often they all started off as mates.
6:32
They're often around the same age.
6:34
Not always, of course, there are very different circumstances.
6:38
But then when you've started out that way, starting to kind of
6:41
put boundaries in and go, do you know what it's it's it's not OK
6:44
to what was the story? I heard someone getting a phone
6:47
call at 2:00 AM asking, oh, and the artist was in Miami and they
6:52
wanted the manager to book them a taxi.
6:55
And when the manager said, well, why don't you call the front
6:57
desk? They said, oh, well, the other
6:58
band has someone to do that for them.
7:00
And I don't. I want you to do it for me.
7:04
Wow. Yes.
7:05
I mean, there are silly things, and sometimes you get it.
7:07
It's because the artist is insecure as well, so the person
7:10
they want to speak to is the person they trust the most.
7:13
But that can lead to so many blurring of boundaries, which,
7:17
yeah, can be a sign of strength, but also can lead to really big
7:21
kind of professional and mental health challenges because no,
7:24
never, any time to switch off. I mean, as kind of context, what
7:29
we're going to talk about today, which is the new report you
7:31
have, we wanted to kind of ask about the the bigger pictures
7:33
was over the last decade, which I guess chimes pretty clearly
7:36
with when you started at the MRF and how I guess the changing
7:40
shape of the music industry has changed the job of managers.
7:43
Because from the outside, and correct me if I'm wrong, it
7:46
feels like they wear a lot more hats nowadays, Like they some of
7:48
the stuff that used to be done by other people, be that labels
7:51
or bookers murders was imagine now, especially of an up and
7:54
coming act. Maybe you're doing a lot more of
7:55
the stuff, but is that fair that the the role of a manager has
7:59
kind of changed and expanded? Yeah, and it's interesting
8:03
because I, I think initially, I mean the barriers to entry.
8:06
I know you guys talk about this on your podcast all the time.
8:09
Like it's much easier to release music than it ever was.
8:12
I used to manage bands very, very badly back at Nottingham
8:16
University in the 90s. And other than printing up a few
8:18
CDs at home, you couldn't put out releases yourself.
8:21
You needed a label. You needed the investment
8:23
because it was just too difficult to do.
8:26
Now anyone can put music out. That means inevitably early days
8:30
artists and their managers are like working on everything
8:33
collectively together and taking on every single role where they
8:36
might not have been able to in the past.
8:39
And then it's quite difficult to have a conversation and go, you
8:42
know how I was doing all the release management, all the
8:45
campaign management, all the digital marketing.
8:48
Actually now we need to pay someone else to do all those
8:51
things because I can't afford to do it.
8:52
Or if you want me to do it, maybe I need to earn differently
8:55
for the additional time I'm putting in rather than just
8:58
coordinating lots of other professionals who are bringing
9:01
those skills. So, yeah, I think there's a
9:03
starting from scratch and certainly it taking possibly two
9:06
to three years now, maybe even longer for an artist to get to a
9:10
stage where they're actually making any money so they can
9:13
earn a living, never mind their manager, earn a living.
9:16
But I also hear that at the other end of the spectrum too.
9:19
You mean you've covered this as well?
9:20
A lot of the big companies, the major labels have been laying
9:23
off staff. And so I've been hearing of
9:25
managers, established management companies with big artists, the
9:29
ones that you'd all have heard of who are like, actually,
9:32
there's no one to handle our marketing budgets anymore.
9:34
So we're going to, we've got a big release out.
9:37
We're going to the label and they're saying, sorry, the
9:39
marketing guy's gone. You're like, well, we the
9:41
release is still happening. Oh, well, we'll give you the
9:44
money to spend on the marketing. And then again, that's another
9:46
thing. The managers then having to get
9:48
a digital agency and manage that and you're like, well, hang on a
9:50
minute, That was someone's salary in a label.
9:53
And then that's just something I've ended up picking up as
9:56
well. So that's what I mean, it's not
9:57
just at the early stage, it's also at that the much and that's
10:01
also why management companies end up having a lot more, some
10:04
of the bigger management companies have a lot more of
10:07
those kind of central resources in house.
10:09
So you know, digital and red light famously has plugging as
10:13
well. And I mean, I think that's been
10:15
happening over several years. But yeah, certainly the last 10
10:18
years more and more of it's sort of come in house, but it's the
10:22
skills as well. It's the time and the skills
10:25
that some of our members really, really struggle with,
10:28
particularly as it takes so long to make any.
10:31
It's really interesting, isn't it?
10:32
It's a kind of passing of the buck from certain people.
10:35
And the the buck seems to now stop with with managers who have
10:40
just expected to have more knowledge and more hours in the
10:44
day, which I guess is this what prompted this because we should
10:48
talk about your new management deals guide.
10:51
Is all this what led you to to present us with, you know, new
10:57
options for how managers are being paid?
11:00
Yeah, I think nearly every conversation I had with the
11:03
manager this year was along some of these lines was like, oh,
11:06
I'm, I, I've gone back to being the tour manager or I've been
11:10
doing the booking or I'm, I'm effectively running a label, but
11:14
I'm trying to do it on 20% Commission and there isn't
11:17
enough to do it. And every conversation was was
11:20
around that or indeed actually some were really positive.
11:23
Some, I mean, you guys will know Kwame Kwaton, who is the vice
11:26
chair of the MMS until very recently and he manages Hack
11:29
Baker and Blue Lab beats and a load of artists.
11:32
And he did, he did. He's created something he calls
11:35
the Fan Deal because Kwame loves an acronym, which is essentially
11:38
a joint venture where they bought in the comms and the PR
11:41
and the plugging and the management and the artists all
11:43
into one company where everyone effectively owns shares in the
11:47
company and they're all vested in that project around a release
11:51
or an album. And so, yeah, they're all
11:55
incentivized for that to do well, rather than being like,
11:57
oh, actually we've got to pay everyone individually upfront
12:00
and then wait for a really long time until we've built it enough
12:03
to to earn any return. So.
12:05
So I guess, yeah, Steve, sorry, back to your point.
12:07
Yeah, it was, it was a combination of people saying
12:09
it's not working. And every time I try and have a
12:12
conversation about changing it, I'm told, no, you've got to go
12:15
back to the standard and the standards, all you can do.
12:18
So, so that conversation and then a load of other people are
12:21
like, no, no, we are doing it differently.
12:23
We've been doing it differently for a while, but we just don't
12:25
shout about it enough and we're not talking about it.
12:28
And Vicki Dowdell, who's managed Nina Nesbitt for years, they're
12:33
brilliant and they've founded a label together, Co founded label
12:37
Vicki's gone off and got investment because Nina was
12:40
saying, well, actually we're doing nearly all of it in house
12:42
anyway. We're doing all the the peak
12:44
because nearly all the promotion, a lot of it is now
12:47
around social media. So that comes back to the artist
12:49
and manager. So they were like, well,
12:50
actually we might as well just own our own label together.
12:53
So that's what they're doing. So yeah, the purpose of the
12:55
guide was try and kind of lay it all out and not say, because a
12:59
few people said to me, oh, we need one new model.
13:01
It needs to be 30% Commission. I'm like, well that if you're
13:04
not making any money for three years, whether it's 20% or 30%
13:08
might not make that much of a difference.
13:11
And if you can never get paid your sunset clause because the
13:13
relationship's broken down, which happens in some cases,
13:16
that doesn't help either. So are there other ways that
13:19
things can? So yeah, the whole point is that
13:22
it kind of sets out a load of different options.
13:23
And it depends what the business looks like, because artist
13:26
businesses are really different, as, you know, different genres.
13:29
Some genres make loads of money from live, particularly if
13:32
you're in the electronic music space where your costs are
13:35
relatively low. Others lose money on live for
13:38
years and years and years until you get to kind of three to 5000
13:41
capacity. And even then, if you keep
13:43
ramping up show production cost because you wanted to have
13:45
lasers, I was talking to a member the other day who did the
13:48
coolest show at Coco with loads and loads of lasers.
13:51
And I said, and it sold out. And I was like, that sounds
13:54
awesome. Did you make any money?
13:55
Oh, no, we lost money. We spent all the money on
13:57
lasers. And like, I wish I'd gone,
14:00
actually. It sounded amazing.
14:02
But yeah, so yeah, let's try and open up the options and the
14:06
conversations, really. So it's it's basically just
14:09
putting in front of people the idea that the old manager gets
14:13
20% of everything the artist gets model is not necessarily
14:18
right for everyone in this day and age.
14:21
Yeah. And I think it can still work in
14:23
some circumstances where the manager is very much deal maker
14:25
and project manager of lots of other people.
14:28
But it's like if we're taking loads more in house, if we're
14:31
not, I mean, what I have some stats about how many of our
14:34
members have basically invested their own money.
14:37
I think 74% of our members in a survey said they'd invested
14:40
their own money into clients clients careers, 35% use
14:44
personal savings, 40% got no outside investments.
14:48
You putting money, putting time and time as money.
14:51
Let's face it, you know, spending several years working
14:54
and a lot of our members have other jobs as well.
14:57
I think 26% of people who responded to our survey working
15:00
full time or part time, 25% are earning really well, but an
15:05
awful lot are earning about 10,000 lbs for music management.
15:08
So again, it's all kind of part of a really long play.
15:12
A lot of them work elsewhere in the music industry or do other
15:15
jobs. And it's like, if I'm going to
15:16
invest all this time and effort, maybe I need to have some more
15:20
skin in the game rather than, you know, I worked for many
15:23
years. And then the moment it takes
15:25
off, an American management company comes in and goes, you
15:28
know, if you want to be really famous, you need to come and
15:30
sign with us. And then it's like 05 years, and
15:33
finally we're starting to see some returns.
15:35
And next thing you know, you're out the door.
15:37
So it's some kind of security. And it won't work for everyone,
15:41
but the idea was to help people at least at least have that
15:45
call. And I do know of two or three
15:47
members since we, we put it out there who've kind of then gone
15:50
and had that conversation with their artists and the artist
15:52
lawyers and gone. Look, when you tell us it's not
15:54
possible to do anything other than 20%, this shows it is
15:58
possible. There's not one thing in our
16:00
guide that we've published that isn't being done by one or more
16:04
of our members. You talked about, I guess you
16:10
talk about the fan deal joint ventures like are there, what
16:12
are the other interesting models that you've seen or that you've
16:15
seen come through in the guide? Because it feels like, like you
16:17
say, there's so many different ones and they're all customized
16:20
to what that one is you want. What have been the ones that
16:21
have kind of jumped out of you as particularly interesting on
16:24
you? Yeah, I mean, there are so many.
16:27
Obviously sometimes there are Co management agreements and the
16:32
lawyers will say, well, it still should be 20% because that's
16:34
what the manager gets. But if you've got two people
16:36
with different skill sets, both bringing that to the artist,
16:39
then having a conversation about how Co management works, not
16:43
only to how do the managers work together, but how are they they
16:46
both incentivize to put in all that extra time.
16:48
So Co management agreements, again, not new but enabling
16:52
people to go, well actually we are bringing more skills and
16:55
more brains than one person. So maybe there should be some
16:57
added. And I think that's easier to be
17:00
honest. When it's a solo artist or a
17:02
duo, I think it becomes quite difficult if you've got like 5
17:06
people in the band and two Co managers.
17:08
The amount of money that's being spread out between a lot of
17:11
people, even if arguably the managers could say, well, we're
17:15
in some cases doing a lot more work than one of the many band
17:18
members who comes out when they're on tour and in the
17:21
recording studio. But the rest of the time isn't,
17:23
you know, doing 8 hours a day or a lot more.
17:27
So yeah, so so it's, it's, there's loads of different
17:30
deals. Like I said, the fan deal is
17:31
quite an interesting one. Obviously some managers run
17:35
their own labels and do development deals.
17:37
I've spoken to a few who've done that where they invest money and
17:40
and initially licensed the copyrights are the ones where
17:43
the manager and artist together own the copyrights.
17:46
Or when actually the artist owns the copyrights outright but the
17:50
manager takes a revenue stream. So sort of reverse, like you'd
17:53
be on a major label, so you know the artist is keeping 80% of the
17:58
money, but of the 20% actually the manager has a longer term
18:02
revenue, not just a Commission. So if then say you've worked on
18:06
the first album and you spent many years helping develop the
18:10
live show and not earning, and then the artist chooses to go
18:14
and sign to a major and maybe go with a big international
18:16
management company, you would still have a revenue stream in
18:20
those original copyrights, which a lot of the time managers
18:24
don't, if you see what I mean. So, and I got members who are
18:27
like, well, everyone else is earning a pension from this.
18:29
You know, the producer who worked in the studio who did a
18:33
brilliant job, but was there for, you know, maybe a couple of
18:36
months if it's quite a longer recording thing.
18:38
You know, the, the songwriters rightly are all still earning,
18:41
The artists obviously are earning, the label is still
18:44
earning, the publishers still earning.
18:46
And yet the manager who worked on that project from day one and
18:50
who really vested in a traditional model can get
18:53
nothing once they're beyond their sunset clause.
18:57
And even in that case, sometimes, like I said, it's
18:59
quite hard to enforce. Whereas, yeah, if you have a,
19:01
some participation in the long term recordings, you know, and,
19:05
and some artists will say that, well, there should be longer
19:08
term, some managers will say, well, if we spent years building
19:10
the live show as well, there should be some ongoing
19:12
participation when they're performing.
19:15
Because I've heard of things where you work on, you know,
19:17
work for a long time to get a live show to the point where
19:20
it's all about to go. And then trying to, if, if you
19:23
then let go and they move to a new management company for
19:27
whatever reason, then actually you, you have invested in that
19:32
development. So you should see some payback
19:34
from that. Oh, absolutely you should.
19:37
You should explain for listeners who don't know what it is, what
19:41
the sunset clause is, which is in some management contracts.
19:46
So yeah, I mean this, this normally is to acknowledge the
19:49
fact that you've worked for a certain amount of time on an
19:52
artist where you'll then see it scaling down over 5 to 10 years.
19:56
So your Commission doesn't, the 20% Commission on the projects
20:00
you've worked on doesn't stop immediately.
20:02
Instead it reduces and I'm I'm told that something that didn't
20:06
necessarily use to occur and it only relates to the projects
20:08
you've worked on. So it only relates to the albums
20:10
you've worked on, but it can mean after five years or after
20:13
10. You're earning nothing on those
20:15
albums that you worked on, whereas like I said, everyone
20:19
else is. That's why it's called a sunset
20:20
as it goes down with the sun. But it can be quite hard.
20:25
And if a relationship really breaks down and the manager
20:27
needs to invoice for the money that they're owed on those
20:31
albums or those projects they worked on if you're not getting
20:35
accounted to. And sometimes relationships end,
20:38
but they don't end badly. So there's a lot of, you know,
20:41
you hear of things where it's like, OK, I've loved working
20:43
with you for 10 years. Just think it's time to work
20:45
with someone else. But don't worry, I'm still going
20:47
to pay you what you're due. Then it's fine.
20:49
You'll get the accounting from the artist what they've earned.
20:52
You go. Well, I worked on those first
20:53
two albums. Here's my Commission.
20:55
According to Sunset, the relationship's broken down
20:59
because there's been a falling out of 1° or another.
21:01
If you can't get the accounting, you can't know what you can
21:04
invoice according to your contract.
21:07
You've then got to maybe turn to courts, which you don't want to
21:10
hugely expensive, particularly if not owed a lot of money.
21:14
And some of this, I mean, I've been listening to some big
21:16
managers talk, but they say there can be an imbalance, that
21:19
there are more artists that want management and fewer people that
21:22
want to provide professional management services because
21:25
they've been burnt. And there's quite a lot of
21:27
managers now offering consultancy services or
21:30
retainers where you're not getting 20% of the total, but
21:34
you are getting a fixed monthly fee for fixed work.
21:37
Or you're purely providing strategy advice as you're
21:41
saying, OK, I'll do a session with you.
21:43
I will provide you my knowledge and advice, I'll help you build
21:46
your own plan, but I'm not going to deliver it.
21:48
You have to deliver it. That's really interesting, isn't
21:53
it? Because then the manager becomes
21:55
more like a freelance PR or a radio promotions team where you
22:00
say I need you to work on this particular EP or this album and
22:04
I will pay you this much to do it rather than yeah, I'll, I'll
22:09
have 20% of something if it's successful.
22:12
You actually. Get paid.
22:14
There's some managers who are paid like that, huge, like huge
22:17
amounts of money because the artist earns a lot of money.
22:19
But you're not getting 20% of what the artist earns.
22:22
The artist is already successful and they're saying I'll pay you
22:25
100 grand a year if you're lucky and you're going to work on my
22:28
campaigns. But you are effectively salaried
22:30
in a way. You're being paid fixed fee.
22:33
There's sort of the converse of that.
22:34
There are some that will be like 2000 lbs a month.
22:36
Then you work on individual projects and then you'll end it
22:39
when when you no longer need that work or like I said, pure
22:43
consultancy. There are quite a few people
22:45
where you're not taking on the responsibility of delivery,
22:48
you're purely providing that advice.
22:51
So you're not really being a manager.
22:52
You're right. You're being, I guess it's like
22:54
APR person not doing or writing the PR, but just going, this is
22:57
how you would write the PR. Now you go off and write the PR
23:00
yourself. Right.
23:03
How, how difficult is it structuring a management
23:06
contracts these days then taking all this into account, because
23:10
surely you have to sort of know what the relationship is going
23:13
to be right at the outset because you've got to write all
23:16
these things in, haven't you? So it's very clear as to how the
23:20
manager is going to be paid, particularly with, I think with
23:23
new artists, you've got to have that agreement right at the
23:26
start that OK, if we're not really earning anything, but
23:30
you're doing a load of work, I tell you what, we'll pay and and
23:34
you've got to drive. I'm speaking to somebody the
23:36
other day who said to be able to do this gig that his band were
23:40
doing the the other week and they're a band sort of on the
23:43
cusp, but he was saying to make this work, I had to drive.
23:47
So essentially I had to be the tour manager.
23:50
So, so and I said, did you get paid as tour manager?
23:53
And, and, and in fact they did, they came from the group, which
23:58
is which is great. But you, those are some of the
24:00
sort of things that you sort of almost need to, you know, state
24:03
at the outset. Do you think so?
24:05
There's no confusion. Yeah, it's, it's really hard and
24:08
I think a lot of people don't know how.
24:09
So people often start out with the trial period.
24:12
We would encourage them always put review points in as well
24:15
where you sit down and go, is this still working?
24:17
Is it working for both of us? Is the structure of the
24:21
agreement still working? I mean, there are a lot of
24:23
managers and artists who never get round to having any form of
24:25
agreement because of the legal costs involved.
24:28
And again, if there's no money, spending a large amount of it on
24:31
lawyers before because also you might never make anybody.
24:34
And then I'm thinking back to my experience in the late 90s.
24:38
I mean, the bands split up. We were making a little bit and
24:41
then they split up. I'm glad we didn't spend
24:42
thousands of pounds of legal fees because it would have been
24:44
more than we we ever earned by the time the the singer and the
24:48
guitarist had fallen out. So, you know, sometimes people
24:52
will come with sort of heads of terms, they'll do emails about
24:55
where they think it should be. I guess sort of talking about,
24:58
well, if I'm going to do additional stuff that we pay
25:00
other people for, can we try and make provision for that?
25:03
The tour management thing is one of the examples in the book,
25:05
actually in the guide that we put to say, actually if you're
25:09
on the road and they're saving money from not paying an
25:12
external tour manager, then what should be your rate for those
25:15
services that you're providing? But you know, you know how tough
25:19
touring is, particularly grassroots touring at the
25:21
moment. And when I speak to members,
25:24
speak to member the other day who said we used to make money
25:26
above, you know, 1000 to 2000 capacity, there'd be some money.
25:30
There's certainly be some money in it for the artist, so
25:32
potentially some money for the manager.
25:35
Now often not now you're having to get up to 3000 caps to make
25:38
enough money. Just because the costs of
25:40
touring are mounted can't increase the ticket fees that
25:43
much. We're always talking about
25:44
ticket fees and prices because people are looking at their own
25:48
budgets at home and saying how much can we afford on a a new
25:51
band for a ticket? And that means it.
25:53
It's just taking even even longer and you get that weird
25:56
thing where everyone else in the tours earn, but at the end of
25:59
it, there's no money for the artist, there's no money for the
26:01
manager. And you know, that's fair enough
26:04
If you're both completely agreed.
26:05
Sometimes it'd be like, well, the artist wanted to stay in a
26:07
bit of a nicer hotel, which was their choice.
26:11
They didn't want to, you know, drive the crappy van.
26:14
They wanted to have something nice.
26:15
Fair enough. That's a choice.
26:17
I mean, I get I speak to people who are like, well, the artist
26:20
wanted a much nicer hotel and wanted a nicer seat on the
26:23
aeroplane. And even though we're doing
26:25
quite well, decided to spend all the all the additional money we
26:31
would have made on comfort. That's their choice.
26:33
But now I'm not earning anything.
26:34
And I spent four months working on a tour where there's now no
26:38
profit and there should have been some.
26:40
And that's, that's a hard decision because obviously
26:42
agents Commission on gross. So the agents taking 10% on
26:46
gross. So they're earning upfront.
26:47
The tour manager, the session musicians are all paid a day
26:50
rate if there's enough money in it.
26:53
So it's, yeah, it's like it's again, it's having the
26:56
conversation about what's fair because in America they
26:58
Commission differently. In America, the managers will
27:02
have some form of Commission on, on gross or net, whichever is
27:05
more and have some allowable costs.
27:06
Whereas in Britain that's not been the case.
27:09
Do you think as much as obviously this is, I think it's
27:12
it's, it's a great way of opening up the discussion around
27:16
how managers get paid. I think that's really good.
27:18
And the suggestions in the document are brilliant because
27:21
it makes you think about alternative ways of how managers
27:26
get paid. But as much as we're doing that
27:29
with the managers, isn't it also about trying to educate some of
27:32
the artists? Because I don't know if artists
27:34
really understand sometimes what a manager does or they have an
27:37
expectation of what a manager does that is far high.
27:41
I mean, it's just unobtainable almost.
27:44
Do you know, do you know what I mean?
27:47
Yeah, I did. I had that discussion the other
27:50
day with a member who should remain nameless working with a
27:53
big artist who's doing some solo stuff.
27:56
And they said the artists expectations around the solo
27:58
shows were for the same level of attention and comfort and team
28:03
as they were for doing the really enormous shows.
28:05
And this manager was just like, we can't do it.
28:08
We can't do it. It's the expectation.
28:10
And we, in fact, that's why we called our whole series managing
28:12
expectations. And I think you're right, Steve,
28:15
I actually think our members need to get a lot better as
28:17
well, explaining to their artists what they're doing for
28:20
them because they do an awful lot of firefighting.
28:23
I've heard my members where they're like on the phone for
28:26
hours arguing with the agent and the festival about what level,
28:30
you know, where they're build on it.
28:32
And and in the end they get on to something that's acceptable
28:34
and they're like, OK, now I can tell my client it's fine.
28:37
But if I told my client at the start, if the client would have
28:41
spent hours, the whole thing would have been an utter
28:43
nightmare. They might have refused to do
28:44
the festival. Actually, we've managed to sort
28:47
it and get it to a position where everyone's happy, but the
28:50
artist has absolutely no idea. That took five hours of my time.
28:54
And if I tell them, then they'll probably be annoyed about the
28:58
whole thing. And actually, if you if you, I
29:00
don't know if Vicki Doudal and Nina Nesbitt have talked a lot
29:03
about that because Nina said that when she was an early stage
29:07
artist signed to a major and then even with independence,
29:10
that that Vicky would just go off and sort a load of stuff for
29:13
her that she didn't know and just didn't necessarily want to
29:15
know because she wanted to spend the time focusing on her music.
29:18
And the trust was there that Vicky would problem solve and
29:20
firefight and come to Nina and go, this is sorted.
29:24
This is what we're doing. And now they Co in the label
29:26
together. Nina's involved in all the
29:28
discussions and they're like, oh God, this is really stressful.
29:32
She's very open about. It, I mean, this is the, this is
29:35
the thing you just because if the artist doesn't appreciate
29:38
how much work has gone into it and and thinks it's happened by
29:42
magic, then then they're they're not, they're not going to have
29:47
the, I don't know the appreciation of how much that is
29:50
worth. Yeah, I think, I think that's
29:52
the difficulty. Whereas everyone knows what a
29:54
lawyer does and goes, Oh yeah, a lawyer is someone you pay and
29:57
they're very expensive PR pluggers, maybe not as expensive
30:01
as lawyers, but accountants, yes, fair enough.
30:04
You pay the accountant for their time, you understand their
30:07
service. I mean, we're talking about
30:09
introducing a kind of a trial certification scheme for
30:12
managers, which will be a kind of relatively light touch, but
30:16
but also robust test of knowledge to be able to say
30:20
actually I am professional. This is the knowledge I bring to
30:24
your career and it's about the respects both ways.
30:27
But you're right, it's hard. Particularly people hide stuff
30:30
and don't tell you all the work they did.
30:32
I don't have wrong member who was trying to do it on, you
30:35
know, like a consultancy basis where she basically had one of
30:39
those timers on her computer. And every time she'd start
30:42
working on one of her clients, she'd like ticket and and like,
30:46
and then at the end of the week she'd be like, right, I've spent
30:48
20 hours on this client and 20 hours on this client and 15
30:52
hours on that client. That was a full week, you know,
30:54
being able to kind of meet her out exactly.
30:56
But again, then maybe you're showing all the workings that
30:59
the artist doesn't necessarily want to know.
31:02
Yeah, and wait, so that's a difficult balance because also
31:04
in some ways you don't want to burden the artist because it's
31:07
the artist's job to create the thing which will hopefully at
31:09
some point make you all money. And any, any worry or any fear
31:13
or any insecurity that you instill in them is probably not
31:17
going to get the best artistic work out of them.
31:19
Or maybe it will. Then there's a whole concept
31:22
album in the relationship between the artist and the
31:24
manager and the bookkeeping. Who knows?
31:30
There is, there is, there is a point as well here that these as
31:34
set out in in your new guide. There are so many different
31:38
scenarios at different stages of artist careers because all
31:43
artist careers are are different that you know it isn't as you
31:47
say, there isn't A1 size fits all.
31:49
But also the realisation that in a career now you might have a
31:53
relationship with a manager, which changes.
31:58
It's about finding the right way of payment for you at that
32:02
point, you and your manager at that point.
32:05
Yeah. And, and as you say, it does, it
32:07
can really change who's I talking to.
32:08
The other day I was talking to a member who said the client had
32:11
gone off and written kind of musicals at one point, you know,
32:14
started off very much traditional and gone into all
32:17
kinds of different spheres. And someone else who said, oh,
32:20
we're going to set up a, it was some kind of third party.
32:24
But I know whenever I've talked to TYS Decorius, who manages
32:27
John Legend, they've got loads of joint ventures together in
32:30
lots of different products and and artists which are really
32:33
entrepreneurial will continuously be bringing new
32:36
ideas. And as you say, kind of being
32:38
able to say, well, that's great, let's invest in together and
32:42
develop a new tequila brand. I mean, that was one I heard of,
32:46
but actually I'm not doing that under 20% Commission.
32:48
I'm going to do that as we're going to be partners in it.
32:51
If we're going to provide all the work together, all films.
32:53
Sometimes they're making films together, doing all kinds of
32:56
creative things because, I mean, some people do music and do it
32:59
really well and don't want to do anything else.
33:01
But some people are, like, creative in so many ways and can
33:04
bring that creativity to lots of different.
33:06
Yeah, lots of different products or productions.
33:10
And so, yeah, it's fine. It's just finding stuff that
33:12
works and that that's why we've not gone, oh, actually the new
33:15
model is this because I, I don't think you can possibly say that
33:19
We just want people to have kind of better conversations about
33:22
what works for both parties really.
33:23
And, and what do you think the reaction to the guide will will
33:26
be in general? How's it been so far?
33:29
And I mean, because the music industry, it can be quite slow.
33:32
I don't know if you notice can be quite slow.
33:33
We've got to change. Yeah, yeah.
33:37
Well, I mean, like I said, there's nothing in there that
33:40
isn't already happening. Someone is someone in this, in
33:44
this guide is doing every single model that is outlined.
33:49
But how quickly it will change. There will always be resistance
33:52
and there'll always be people who say no, hang on a minute.
33:54
This is the way it's always been done in the past.
33:56
This is the way it should always be done in the future.
33:59
One thing I would say is that it's not just us talking about
34:01
this. I went to Australia last year
34:04
for South by Sydney and I met an academic called Guy Morrow who
34:09
was previously a manager. He, I think he managed Bears Den
34:12
actually with Ron Brant. But he is, he's an academic now
34:17
and he's produced a book talking to loads of Australia managers
34:20
and lawyers all about how the model needs to shift there and
34:23
how the industry has changed. But there are still some people
34:27
trying to work on a model that was very, possibly very
34:30
effective 20-30 years ago but isn't now.
34:32
So we're not the only ones having this conversation.
34:35
But yeah, as you say, Steve, nothing is quick in the music
34:38
industry. I don't think we're going to get
34:40
together next year and go, oh, it's great, It's all sorted.
34:42
Everyone's now got appropriate ways of remunerating everyone
34:46
fairly. That works for them.
34:47
And I think it'll take a lot longer than that.
34:50
I mean, talking of things that are sure to be sorted out in the
34:52
next year. Before we let you go, we wanted
34:54
to ask you about the advocacy work you're doing.
34:56
And I guess what the big concerns of your members are at
34:58
the moment. Because I know you've mentioned
34:59
the streaming economy. I know you've been talked about
35:02
things like AI as well and been part of that debate.
35:04
So what are the big things in the in in your mind, in the
35:07
minds of your members at the moment in terms of policy
35:08
advocacy work? Yeah, and in some ways they're
35:12
different. The AI debate and the streaming
35:13
debate, some ways they're really similar.
35:15
It's a new technology. Actually, going back to my 1992
35:18
example, here's a new technology.
35:21
This is how the record labels have decided it's going to be
35:25
implemented and how people are going to be paid for it.
35:27
Whether that was the, what was it called digital compact
35:30
cassette or whether it was actually streaming is going to
35:33
be paged on a pro rata basis. But we're going to apply your
35:36
old pre digital royalty rates model to pay that on or we're
35:40
going to do a new AI. We're going to, you know,
35:42
license AI, but we're not going to tell you how you're going to
35:45
be paid for it. So there is actually quite a lot
35:48
of similarities there. And it's that point about artist
35:51
consultation and consent and compensation.
35:55
It tends to be, it's like we've all worked out this is how
35:58
you're paid, not actually we need to have a dialogue about
36:01
how this is going to work for artists, for labels and for the
36:05
wider industry. So yeah, we're we're still in
36:09
talks with government, we're told Chris, we met Chris Bryant,
36:11
who's the new culture minister through the Council of Music
36:14
Makers and he says he's committed to trying to see an
36:17
industry wide agreement. He's going to continue the work
36:20
and isn't going to let it drop. So we think that's very
36:22
positive. We are, you're right, Stuart,
36:25
having discussions within UK music about artists ability for
36:29
consent on AI. So not just their label turns
36:33
around and says we've done a big deal with Suno or whoever to
36:39
license a new generative AI thing and we're going to give
36:41
you this bit of money for it, hopefully or no money because
36:44
none of it's attributed. What we're hoping.
36:46
What we would like to see is a really a proactive and explicit
36:52
opt in right for artists. So not an opt out, not you can
36:56
license my catalogue in this to tell you you can't, but really
36:59
proactive. Are you happy with us licensing
37:02
your music into AI? If so, let's have a discussion
37:05
about how you get paid for it. It's kind of interesting, isn't
37:08
it? Because I guess a lot of the
37:09
stuff coming out of the industry aimed at the AI world has been
37:13
you need to ask our permission, you need, you need consent.
37:17
But then I think it was the council music makers that came
37:18
out with that thing saying, well, by the way, that goes two
37:20
ways and labels and publishers need to ask our clients.
37:22
And that was an interesting part of the debate because I feel
37:25
like I don't know, is there some of the some of the kind of
37:29
concerns lingering from the streaming debate?
37:31
Do they play into that like people feeling like well?
37:34
Absolutely no, they really do. And actually AIM has been
37:37
brilliant on the AI side and they have, they have agreed with
37:43
the Council of Music Makers around the principle of kind of
37:46
meaningful consent for, for music makers and, and obviously
37:51
artists as music makers for ingestion of, of music into AI.
37:55
That's not the position currently held.
37:57
Publishers are saying it's too complicated.
37:59
And the labels are basically saying, well, we negotiate
38:02
individually with artists. And if their contracts already
38:05
say for any form of new technology now and in the
38:09
future, we have the right to license, then we already have
38:11
consent. We don't need to go back and ask
38:13
for it again. So yeah, all of those things
38:16
playing together. I mean, God knows what will
38:17
happen in America now. They were talking about
38:20
something called the No Fakes Act.
38:22
That was the sort of voice and personality rights that we
38:26
thought was reasonably good because it had to be explicit,
38:30
explicit licensing around specific use cases and kind of
38:36
time limited. So you couldn't just go, here's
38:38
my image and personality. You can have it in perpetuity
38:42
for any use you want to. It would be like, no, you can
38:44
use my voice in my face for these music videos for this
38:47
amount of time. So you couldn't just go, oh, you
38:50
signed this contract five years ago.
38:51
I've got everything I want. Or 10 years ago or 15 years ago.
38:54
But I don't know what will happen under Trump, honestly, no
38:57
idea if that will continue to go through.
39:00
And then the other thing is the ticketing.
39:02
I know you've also talked a lot about ticketing, but we spent
39:04
years campaigning to try and get restrictions on ticket touting
39:09
because industrial scale ticket touting has been a real problem.
39:13
And Adam Webb, who leads the Fanfare campaign with us, has
39:16
been fantastic campaigner and stuck it out.
39:19
I must admit, I've been in the MMS for nine years and we
39:21
started Funfair 8 1/2 years ago and we were like, how long will
39:25
this take? And we, we have a Labour Party
39:27
commitment. We do have a party commitment,
39:29
but they're still consulting on exactly how.
39:32
And we'd like to see them follow the Irish model because in
39:34
Ireland they just have a, a cap on ticket resale above 10%.
39:37
And it seems to have taken out all the industry.
39:39
We believe fans should be able to resell if they can't go.
39:42
But it's the, it's the, you know, buy a load of tickets
39:45
upfront and speculatively resell them.
39:47
We never have any intention of going to the show that we want
39:49
to stop. Yeah, yeah.
39:52
I was just thinking on the subjects of live as the the live
39:56
scene, how it's how it interacts with management.
40:00
Was the the old school merch boot bootleggers?
40:04
I haven't seen merch bootleggers for a while.
40:07
Have merch bootleggers disappeared or are they still
40:09
there? It's.
40:10
It's online now, isn't it? There are those companies online
40:11
where you can buy all the dodgy merch now I.
40:13
Think right. That's true, but I bet there
40:16
were for those. Really, they must have been for
40:18
the Taylor Swift shows. I bet they'll reappear somewhere
40:21
on the streets for the Oasis. I bet they will.
40:26
It'll have to be shut down again.
40:27
I bought some terrible T-shirts in my time outside gigs.
40:30
Did you? Really.
40:31
Have you still got? Any washing, no one washing,
40:33
they disintegrate or go like crop top shape which is not a
40:36
good look. Very trendy anyway, you know,
40:40
you probably. It's been lovely talking to you.
40:44
If for anyone who's interested and wants to know more
40:48
particularly, I mean, I know we have managers who listen to this
40:51
program and some new and aspiring managers or people who
40:54
would like to get into music management.
40:56
How do they find out more details and where can they find
40:58
the guide? Go on to our website
41:01
www.themmf.net and you'll find the guide on there and how to
41:08
sign up if you're not currently a member.
41:10
And if you are a member, you'll get invited to all of our
41:12
events. We did a great session at
41:14
YouTube yesterday that actually was all about AI and
41:16
productivity. So super interesting, but we've
41:19
got stuff going on for members all the time and and this
41:21
publication just part of that. Brilliant.
41:23
Thank you very much, Annabella. Thanks so much for having me.
41:30
Annabella Colerick from the Music Managers Forum What did
41:33
you learn from that Stuart? Did you pick up any handy tips?
41:36
When the black crows phone up and say our managers walks out
41:40
on us. Stuart, you're a man in the
41:42
industry. Will you be our manager?
41:45
Oh, I could ruin their career really well, yeah, definitely.
41:48
I'd take that. No, do you know, I've never,
41:50
I've always thought music manager can be is a difficult
41:53
job and it's it's often thankless job and and hard work
41:57
and just hearing Annabella talk about all the different things
42:00
that are kind of falling into their laps now, you know,
42:02
develop more artist development. Driving the tour bus as an
42:06
unpaid tour manager. It does feel like a lot, but I
42:09
also it seems like quite an exciting time for managers too,
42:13
in that you're doing all that development work.
42:15
For example, you're doing the stuff a label used to do that
42:17
could be quite wonderful if it works and your artist goes
42:21
places and you're doing it with them.
42:22
And some of those models too are like the whole idea of joint
42:25
ventures, collaborations. It feels like there's, it feels
42:28
like there's this new kind of way of doing it emerging.
42:33
But like she said, I think it only matters if you're actually
42:36
earning any money. And she was quite open, wasn't
42:38
she, about how hard it is to, to make money, whether it's on the
42:41
road, whether it's from recordings.
42:43
So yeah, I, I still, I politely declined.
42:46
Still, I think if the crows called me, I'd say that someone
42:48
else is probably better suited for this.
42:50
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it was Annabella was
42:51
hinting there's lots of different avenues and
42:54
opportunities, why he's now different ways of making money.
42:58
You've still got to manage to get those, you know, take those
43:01
opportunities. You've still got to be, you've
43:03
got to beat some other artist to the punch to get that work.
43:08
So there's loads out there. All those are different things
43:11
out there. But to make some money you've
43:14
got to go and make those things happen or they've got to fall
43:16
into, fall into your lap. I tell you one, one of the best
43:19
things I think from that interview though, is the idea
43:23
that there are managers, WhatsApp groups.
43:26
Can you imagine WhatsApp group? It's like just swapping tail to,
43:30
well, you never guess what my artist did last week.
43:35
It must be great. It's, it's really, it's
43:38
interesting that idea and you mentioned that I think the idea
43:40
of it can be a lonely profession being a manager.
43:42
And I like the idea that they are WhatsApp groups and also
43:44
this support. I mean, the other thing I
43:46
thought was interesting, which you mentioned that idea of
43:47
artists being entrepreneurial. And I feel like we've talked
43:49
about that, haven't we? A bit like as an artist
43:51
nowadays, you can do a lot of different things to try and get
43:54
yourself a career that earns you money and that idea of, oh, I'm
43:57
a creative artist, I can go and launch tequila brand or I can go
44:00
and do this and that. That again, to me seems
44:03
incredibly fun and interesting as a manager to be able to work
44:06
on that kind of project. Although if you're doing that
44:09
while also handling everything else that comes in, I can
44:11
imagine it's stressful as well. But you know that I would do
44:14
that. I would I would do that for, you
44:15
know, if the Black Quiz want a tequila brand or whiskey brand
44:18
probably is more suitable for them.
44:19
You know, I have a go at that. How hard can it be?
44:22
Yeah, it will be more of a task to sell photos of the black
44:26
crow's feet. There's a that's a running gag.
44:32
That's what it's come down to now.
44:33
Managers, how can you monetize your artist's feet?
44:37
Pictures of your artist's feet, Anyway, if you are an aspiring
44:41
manager, well, even if you're not, we hope you found that
44:44
informative. Thank you very much once again,
44:46
to Annabella from the MMF. And thank you for listening.
44:50
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45:24
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45:26
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