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Katelan Foisy: The Myths and Misconceptions of Tarot · Echoes of the South

• 1:35
  Welcome to Echoes of the South. I'm Carrie Genzel. Tarot has been around for
• 1:41
  centuries, but somewhere along the way the cards became wrapped in something else:
• 1:49
  fortune tellers, predictions of the future, the death card. And the idea that simply
• 1:56
  laying a deck on the table might somehow invite something in. It's an image
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  reinforced by movies, television, superstition, and generations of stories about
• 2:11
  what tarot is supposed to be. But how much of that is actually true? That's what I
• 2:18
  wanted to explore with my guest today. Katelan Foisy is an artist, writer, and tarot
• 2:26
  designer whose work moves between art, music, and Symbolism and esoteric culture.
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  She's worked with Tarot for much of her life, both as a reader and an artist,
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  creating imagery for the Hoodoo Tarot, The Sibyl's Oraculum, and projects with the
• 2:47
  band The Smashing Pumpkins. And her relationship with the cards began long before
• 2:55
  any of that. Today Katelan and I talk about where that relationship started, what
• 3:02
  it's meant to her as an artist. What actually happens during a tarot reading and
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  some of the biggest myths and misconceptions surrounding the cards themselves?
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  Because sometimes the things we've been taught to fear aren't quite what we've been
• 3:24
  told they are. Let's begin.
• 3:27
  Katelan Foisy, it is so good to see you. It has been a while since we've had a chat
• 3:33
  and I can
• 3:34
  Yeah, it has.
• 3:35
  think of no better person to get into the topic of tarot than you.
• 3:42
  Yes.
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  I know there's a lot of misconceptions out there. There's a lot of people who think
• 3:50
  they know what it is or why it exists or where it's come from. And I thought there's
• 3:57
  no better person. than you to sort of take us through your journey with it and what
• 4:05
  you use it for and kind of get those misconceptions out of the way. So let's start
• 4:12
  though with your history and let's get into sort of your family and how you found
• 4:19
  your way to tarot.
• 4:21
  Well, so I'm part of her Romani Sinti And so growing up, I didn't really know
• 4:27
  because my grandmother was from Austria and she kept a lot of things hidden. mean,
• 4:33
  you had to. It was growing up in Nazi Austria and so you didn't admit anything. And
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  so when she came over to the US, a lot of things that I just sort of thought were
• 4:47
  normal everyday stuff. turns out like, no, it's actually cultural. so when you sweep
• 4:54
  the steps of the doorway and you throw water outside or when you have hiccups, you
• 5:00
  throw a key on a red string over your shoulder. And I thought this was all very
• 5:07
  everyday until I talked to other kids and they were like, what are you talking
• 5:13
  about? And I was like, okay.
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  I haven't even heard of some of those. our family also has back, know, go back to
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  like Austria and Germany and which was, and then the Soviet Union then. So we
• 5:31
  Yeah.
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  have a lot of that too, but I haven't heard some of those. Those are really
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  fascinating.
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  Yeah, so, you know, I grew up with these things and I also was just sort of
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  interested in things. And so, you know, I kind of started with playing cards first
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  and, you know, just putting them down and playing with them. And of course, you're a
• 5:53
  child, so, you know, you're looking at really you're like snooping in on your
• 5:58
  family, you know, so.
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  Hahaha.
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  And I found that a lot of things that I was looking up or, you know, I was trying
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  to. find answers for would actually be happening at that time. And so, you know, I
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  would overhear a conversation after and being be like, wait a minute, I saw that I
• 6:18
  saw that in these cards. And so, you know, as I go older, and I wasn't too much
• 6:24
  older, I got my first tarot deck when I was like 12 years old and in Provincetown,
• 6:30
  you know, Cape Cod. And it was this little Just this little spiritual store there.
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  And I walked in and I just looked at this deck and I was like. Those images, I need
• 6:43
  them in my life. And so I started looking at them and I started sleeping with them
• 6:49
  underneath my pillow and just sort of putting myself into the cards because I loved
• 6:55
  the images so much. And as I did that, it's almost like it was a storyboard that
• 7:01
  opened up and started to show something that was happening. It would give a map. Or
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  it would be some storyline where each of the images was almost speaking to each
• 7:13
  other or not speaking to each other. And I was like, wow, this is something, this is
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  a visual language that I can get behind. And so I started reading tarot that way.
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  And of course, you know, being so young, your friends are asking, does this boy like
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  me? Or does this person like me?
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  The important stuff.
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  And I was like, and of course that doesn't change over time too. You know, it's like
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  the heart wants what it wants. But you know, as I,
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  or the mind wants what it wants.
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  over time I started seeing it a little bit differently as a guide or a map and that
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  it could give these answers to unlocking the way that your brain works. Or, you
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  know, for instance, if you're having an issue or maybe you just need a little
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  guidance, it's usually something they are already thinking about, but it will come
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  up in the cards and you're like, wait a minute, I just needed something like a
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  friend to say, like, yes, like that is the way that you should go. So I started
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  seeing them as sort of these friends in a way that would give you guidance. And so
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  that's how I... really got into the tarot. You know, my grandmother would, she
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  would, you know, play with playing cards and things like that. But for me, none of
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  that was really up in the forefront. I sort of definitely came into it on my own
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  more than other family members. So I was very much interested. I was interested in
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  maps, was interested in images and I was interested in this other language. I just
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  thought of it as another language.
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  That's really interesting that it seems that the imagery itself almost, there was a
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  familiarity to it. There was like this almost drawing, you know, it drawing you in.
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  I mean, you're
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  Yeah.
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  so artistic for those of you that are not familiar with Katelan incredible artwork.
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  You need to go and look up her website and see some of her wonderful works. But you
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  do definitely have that. that artistic expression yourself, even if you may not have
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  discovered it at 12, but there was something
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  Yeah.
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  in you that really, the imagery was speaking to you in a way that felt comfortable
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  and familiar.
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  Yes, it did, it did. And you know, when I would sort of meditate with the cards, I
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  would put myself into them. And I would sort of visualize myself walking around them
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  and trying to see what they were saying. And so that's how I really learned the
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  tarot is just by putting myself into it. And so of course, you know, when you get a
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  deck, you're supposed to sleep with it under your pillow and in a silk cloth. And I
• 10:15
  did that. But of course, sometimes the awareness of having something under your
• 10:19
  pillow, you just have a terrible night's sleep and you're just like, what's going
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  on?
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  Right. Right.
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  But when I did the visualizations with them, it's almost like something really
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  unlocked with that because I could really visualize it, walk around in it and kind
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  of understand the symbols more.
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  That's really interesting. think for me as an actor, I can really understand that of
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  putting yourself, because we as actors, we do that. We create the world that we're
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  in, right? And
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  Yeah.
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  make it real for ourselves. So the thought of putting myself into the card and
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  walking around and really getting a sense of what it is and the feeling of it makes
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  sense to me as a performer.
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  Yes. Yes.
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  Yeah, and I never thought of it that way. I always just thought of it more like a
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  map, more like,
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  Mm-hmm.
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  it's guiding me to the next street, the next place,
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  Yes.
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  the next thing, and never really thought of it in that way. So that's very
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  interesting.
• 11:29
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think part of it was when I was growing up, when I was a child,
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  I was doing a lot of acting too. So, you it's interesting that you bring that aspect
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  up because I do think that probably played a part in how I learned is I loved
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  acting. I loved being involved in these worlds. And so when I was looking at these
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  cards, I was like, I get to be a part of this world.
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  Right, it's the fantasy of it as a child for me, was, oh, I get to create whatever
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  world I want to be in. So I could see
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  Yes.
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  the draw of that of, okay, let me learn about this. It's a whole new world, right?
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  It opens up this
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  Yes.
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  whole world. Very interesting. And then there's the aspect of the guidance of, you
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  know, I think that most people can relate to... trying to make a big decision in
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  their life and saying, okay, universe, give me the signs, right? Like, show
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  Yes.
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  me, show me. And to me, it's very similar to that. that except you have more of a
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  guided way of asking for that, you know, that sign or that intuition. And I think
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  we, lot of us have that sort of internal intuition that we don't always listen to,
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  because we're always looking for the... It's like just we want it to fall right in
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  our lap.
• 12:50
  Of course. Yeah.
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  And so to me, feel like tarot is that way to get grounded and centered and like you
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  said, maybe have that friend that's like, hey, yeah, you're right. That is it.
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  That's what you should be doing, right?
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  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, it's such a good map because it is, you know,
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  that that sort of friend that tells you like, hey, yes, you're on the right path or
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  maybe you want to rethink that, you know,
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  right.
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  so because tarot can be a tough critic sometimes, you know, you're really held that
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  on something and then it's like, you sure about that?
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  Well, we are really good at convincing ourselves of things, even when we know
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  Yes.
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  that that might not be what we should be doing, or
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  Yes.
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  it's not really the truth, but we want to make it the truth, right? And I'm sure
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  that when you're doing, you're pulling cards, right? It'll tell you the truth. And
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  it's like, it's right there.
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  Yeah, it'll tell you. Absolutely, absolutely. mean, it's interesting because,
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  sometimes even with like projects, I'll be, you know how they say like, you know,
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  sometimes you have to like kill your darlings, because I'll fall
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  Right.
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  in love with an aspect of one thing that I did. And I know that I actually have to
• 14:10
  get rid of it in order for the piece to work. But I'm like really enamored with this
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  one part. And so you know, I'll pull a card and it'll be like, I'm like,
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  I know.
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  just no and then I'll do it and of course
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  We get attached to things.
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  you know the piece comes together and I'm like man if I only did that like two days
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  ago I would have saved myself so much time and effort and
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  We get attached to things. And one thing that I know just from for developer, know,
• 14:43
  development and editing, and I'm sure you know this too from editing anything,
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  whether it's artwork or a project, a video project or anything, you never miss what
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  you cut. And you
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  No.
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  will hang on to that and be like, but I really love that moment. it doesn't really
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  fit. I just love that moment. And then when you cut it, you never think about it
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  again.
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  Exactly. And you don't even use it. know, it's just, it's one of those things where
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  it's like in the moment there's something very precious about it. And then
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  afterwards you're like, why was I putting so much power into this one aspect when
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  Right.
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  I knew that if I cut it, I would have something much more powerful or much more
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  cohesive. And so it's really interesting because I think of it as that's the way our
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  minds work sometimes. We get really interested in one aspect of our life or, you
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  know, one path that we can take. And we don't, we get so focused on it that we
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  forget that there may be something that comes out of it that's like really amazing
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  that we didn't even think of because we're so focused on this.
• 15:55
  Right. We do, we tend to get tunnel vision because we want things to be the way we
• 16:00
  envision them to be. We want to make it the way we thought it should be instead of
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  the way it should be. Right. And
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  Yes.
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  people get stuck in that in their lives even. Right. No, that's
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  Yeah.
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  not what it's supposed to look like. It's supposed to look like
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  Exactly.
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  this. And they never get to where they're supposed to be because they've put those
• 16:19
  limitations on themselves. And
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  Yes.
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  yeah. And we can do that right in a smaller sense with a project, but we can do it
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  within the boundaries of our lives and keep ourselves stuck.
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  Absolutely, absolutely. Even career paths or even just thinking about interpersonal
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  relationships or things like that where we get really tunnel vision about how it's
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  supposed to be or this is the way I had it in my head. And using a tool like the
• 16:50
  Tarot can really pull yourself out of that. It can just sort of give you this
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  insight of, hey, Like how about we pull back the reins? How about we let go of this
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  control? Because once we let go of the control, that's when all the beauty comes in.
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  That's when
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  always.
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  all of the amazing things happen. That's when we've decided to
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  Always.
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  like, be like, that's it. I'm, you know, just whatever happens. And then all of this
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  amazing stuff happens and you're like,
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  We hold on so tight. I always love that with a saying, you know, let go or be
• 17:26
  dragged.
• 17:27
  Yeah!
• 17:29
  It's like we hang on so tight, but it's supposed to be this, you know, it's like,
• 17:33
  I know.
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  just let it be, let it be what it's supposed to be.
• 17:39
  Exactly.
• 17:41
  Always fun. what's very interesting about you is you've not only used tarot, you've
• 17:50
  also designed it. And I think that's
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  Yes.
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  really fascinating. So bringing in your artistic nature with the cards. And I'd be
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  curious to know in terms of the decks that you've designed, and it may be different
• 18:06
  for different decks, if... you use that same sort of instinct and that same draw
• 18:12
  that you had as a child to kind of place yourself in the card as you're designing
• 18:18
  the different cards.
• 18:20
  I definitely do. So it's really interesting because I forgot about a deck that I
• 18:26
  worked on. I never finished a deck that I was painting years ago, but I realized,
• 18:33
  you know, I was putting myself very much in that deck and I may revisit it again one
• 18:40
  day, but during that time I was painting my friends as the different figures in the
• 18:47
  tarot. And so I was very much in that world. It was world right before a storm. And
• 18:54
  that's how I feel kind of like the tarot is. It's that sort of, I guess the word
• 19:00
  would be magic that you feel when you feel the temperature drop and the air gets a
• 19:07
  little different and then all the leaves turn and you're like, something's coming.
• 19:14
  And the air feels different. You can almost smell the rain. And that's how I felt
• 19:21
  that that world was, you know, in the world of tarot, it's like, something's about
• 19:27
  to happen. And it's gonna be very powerful. It's gonna be very, you know, it's gonna
• 19:34
  break bad habits. It's going to, you know, kind of get me out of this, you know,
• 19:41
  stuck place. And so in that deck, I was definitely very much in that world. And then
• 19:48
  with the other decks that I was doing, so when I worked with Tayannah the first
• 19:54
  deck, the Sibyls Oraculum That was after the Black Doves of Africa. And so it was
• 20:01
  done in mosaics. I drew the mosaics, but it was sort of like ancient Roman Greek
• 20:08
  mosaics and then paired with this older, older type of art. And so, For that, I
• 20:14
  really had to get in that mode of like being in something ancient that was
• 20:21
  Right.
• 20:23
  existing far beyond me. so when I was doing that, mean, Tayannah is so good with
• 20:29
  symbolism too, and she's a historian. So she had all of these different visuals for
• 20:36
  me to look at. And so I was creating these cards based off her descriptions and the
• 20:43
  visuals. And then doing this sort of mosaic type art. And it was very difficult, but
• 20:50
  very enriching because, you know, it's so not tedious, that's not the word, but
• 20:57
  there's just so many details and intricacies. And you have to just get everything in
• 21:04
  your leg. Okay, I'm in this ancient world and I have to be in that mode. And it's
• 21:11
  almost like I was in those worlds, like in ancient Greece, in Rome. in ancient
• 21:18
  Africa and because there's such a carryover between that art at that time. And with
• 21:25
  the Hoodoo tarot, again, Tayannah is, she has family in the south, very deep roots.
• 21:32
  And we, as she was doing the research on it, she found out that Hoodoo has a lot of
• 21:39
  ties to Romani and indigenous culture too.
• 21:43
  Wow, interesting.
• 21:43
  And so it is a mixture of these different things and there's different types. So,
• 21:48
  you know, if someone's doing something in one area, it may be very different from
• 21:54
  another area. And it's just about the cultural groups that were in that area and the
• 22:00
  mixing of people. And so when we did that deck, it was like, I was in this other
• 22:05
  world. so Tayannah had very distinct idea of how she wanted the cards to look. Some
• 22:11
  of them were her family members. So I was like, okay, you know, I need to pay great
• 22:17
  respect to her family and
• 22:19
  Of course.
• 22:20
  everyone in this deck. And so that world was very interesting because I had just
• 22:26
  come off of the Shiny and So Bright tour and was going straight into the tarot and I
• 22:32
  was like, wow, different gears.
• 22:35
  Yeah, I'm going to pull up some of the imagery.
• 22:38
  So, Tayannah gave me, when she sent me the book for the Hoodoo Tarot, she had
• 22:43
  written everything down and she gave me very distinct directions on how she wanted
• 22:50
  things to look. And, you know, a lot of this is from her own research, from her own,
• 22:56
  you know, family, from things that they would do. So, you know, I wanted it to be as
• 23:02
  much her vision as possible. And the same with The Sibyls Oraculum because she had
• 23:08
  put so much, you know, research and effort into it that I really wanted what her
• 23:14
  vision was to come through. And I really
• 23:18
  Right.
• 23:19
  felt like I was the hands for it. But I...
• 23:22
  What's wild is like they look so they look ancient, like when you look at the
• 23:26
  imagery and it's so from the other artwork that I know from you, you know, it's very
• 23:32
  different, you know, than some of the other artwork I've seen that you've done. And
• 23:37
  that's really exciting to
• 23:39
  Absolutely.
• 23:40
  me. Like it feels so collaborative and it feels like, like I said, these look like
• 23:46
  you found them like in a cave somewhere, like, you know, and they're
• 23:51
  Yeah.
• 23:52
  like, you know, they're like, look what we found. It's so incredible and so unique
• 23:58
  looking.
• 23:59
  Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that was her vision for it. So I really wanted to be as
• 24:03
  close to her vision as possible. And she's great because, you know, if something's
• 24:08
  off or whatever, she'd be like, no, you know what doesn't work? I mean, she's like,
• 24:13
  when we were talking about the tarot, it's like, no, that doesn't work. Kill and and
• 24:19
  like, kill that part off. Like,
• 24:21
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:23
  so, you know, it was really great. working with her and it was so interesting
• 24:29
  because it was a style that I was not used to. So it really was this whole
• 24:36
  experience for me of learning this new style and then putting myself into it and
• 24:42
  then just really just trying to be as involved with the cards as possible as I'm
• 24:49
  creating them.
• 24:51
  Wow, it's really, they're so stunning and people are able to buy these on your
• 24:58
  website
• 24:59
  Yes.
• 24:59
  and other places.
• 25:01
  Yeah, they can buy them at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, any bookstore should have them.
• 25:06
  A lot
• 25:07
  Right.
• 25:07
  of different stores carry it. So you can pretty much find it anywhere if you're
• 25:13
  looking.
• 25:14
  Yeah, absolutely. Now that people know that they're out there, they're absolutely
• 25:20
  beautiful and they're so unique. Yeah, very, very cool. And that's what I love.
• 25:26
  You're always involved in so many different projects and different things. It's
• 25:32
  always exciting to see what you're up to on your social media. Another thing,
• 25:38
  speaking of Tarot, and we're going to get to that tour. was seeing your work, and I
• 25:44
  can't imagine it as an artist, like seeing your work in such a big format. So you
• 25:50
  think of tarot cards and you think of a deck of cards and then you look at something
• 25:57
  like this,
• 25:58
  Yeah!
• 25:59
  which is incredible. And you see the size of that behind such incredible, talented
• 26:04
  performers with The Smashing Pumpkins
• 26:07
  Yeah.
• 26:10
  What was that like to see the first time to see your artwork so just beautifully,
• 26:18
  you know, projected behind the band?
• 26:22
  It was really interesting. So the way that I work is very interesting because I am
• 26:28
  almost like, okay, I just want Billy to be happy. So that was my whole thing. I was
• 26:34
  like,
• 26:35
  Right.
• 26:36
  I just want him to have beautiful visuals. I was working with Linda Strawberry at
• 26:43
  the time too. And she's amazing. And so when I saw it there, for me, It's more of
• 26:50
  this, okay, this all works with the music. all so, and then afterwards it's like,
• 26:58
  wow, that was huge. And it's
• 27:01
  right.
• 27:01
  like, comes to me afterwards.
• 27:05
  Right.
• 27:06
  In the moment, it's almost like I never get it. And people tell me that a lot.
• 27:10
  They're just like, you never understand how big the projects you're doing are. And
• 27:15
  then I was like,
• 27:16
  yeah.
• 27:16
  you're right. It's because. I have such a close working relationship and friendship
• 27:22
  when I'm working with Billy that it's just like, man, I just wanna make sure that my
• 27:29
  friend has what he needs. Even with the tarot decks with Tayannah, it's like, I've
• 27:36
  gotta make sure her vision is there. So then afterwards, that's when it all sort of
• 27:43
  sets in and I'm like, wow, wow, that's bigger than me.
• 27:48
  It's just, it's so exciting to see, you know, your work in such a grand, you know,
• 27:54
  presented in such a grand way and brought in to the, you know, music world. And, you
• 28:01
  know,
• 28:02
  Yeah.
• 28:02
  you talk about how even with the cards, you know, when you were younger and how
• 28:07
  you'd put yourself in those cards and then to see you design the card and it's put
• 28:12
  into this world of like, you know, the music world and it's on the
• 28:17
  Yeah.
• 28:18
  stage and so all those people in the stadium are getting drawn in as well. So it's
• 28:24
  very interesting. It's like a big full circle moment.
• 28:28
  Yeah, absolutely. also the Mellon Collie and Infinite Sadness box set has 22 major
• 28:36
  arcana that we did for
• 28:39
  Right.
• 28:42
  the anniversary. so that was enough. I've done so much tarot that I have forgotten
• 28:48
  how much tarot I've done.
• 28:50
  Yeah.
• 28:52
  But. You know, that was interesting too, because I got to be in the world of Mellon
• 28:58
  Collie and the Infinite Sadness and the beautiful art. So I didn't want to copy what
• 29:04
  was on the original release, but
• 29:07
  Right.
• 29:07
  I wanted it to be in the family of, in the world of.
• 29:10
  Right. Right.
• 29:11
  And it was amazing to be in that world too. And, you know, I was listening to the
• 29:17
  album while I was creating the cards and, you know, even for the tours. for the
• 29:23
  songs that the cards were representing. I believe that one was Today. I listened to
• 29:30
  that song over and over again while I did the cards. And so, you I get to be in
• 29:36
  these different worlds. And then it's amazing to see other people, you know, for The
• 29:43
  Sybil's Oraculum and the Hoodoo Tarot, other people using them and being like, wow,
• 29:49
  I'm having these. amazing experiences and getting so much information from them. And
• 29:56
  so it's amazing to hear that too.
• 29:59
  Yeah, I mean, that's it. It's one thing as an artist to create art, but then to have
• 30:04
  people get to not only experience it, but have it work into their lives and their
• 30:09
  practice as well. I was going
• 30:11
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:14
  to ask you in terms of intent, something I think about a lot in what I do. And when
• 30:19
  you are creating these cards, I imagine, and you're saying you put yourself into...
• 30:25
  you know, whether it's listening to music or listening to
• 30:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:30
  the stories or tying in someone's family, there's always, you know, a very specific
• 30:36
  intent that goes into creating those images. And how important
• 30:42
  Yeah.
• 30:42
  is that to you in the work that you do?
• 30:46
  So of course intent is always important, but I also want to leave room for other
• 30:51
  people's interpretation.
• 30:53
  Right.
• 30:55
  you know, obviously with Sybils Oraculum and Hoodoo Tarot the intent is very much
• 31:01
  there. And, you know, working on images of historical figures too is really, really
• 31:08
  intense, but in a good way. and so, you know, when you're doing that, you're like,
• 31:15
  of course, the intent is to be, to pay them respect because they're incredible
• 31:22
  people. And also they had incredible gifts. And so, you know, anyone who's looking
• 31:29
  at that deck and working with that deck is going to feel that. but also just for
• 31:36
  them to get the messages that they need to get, or, you know, get the, the intention
• 31:43
  that they, may. have or need to come through that as well.
• 31:48
  Right, right. Wow. It's really beautiful work and it's really, like I said, love
• 31:53
  the, the, you know, seeing the different styles and different inspirations between
• 31:59
  the works is really exciting for me to see. It's just really wonderful to see that
• 32:05
  you're able to express yourself in so many different ways within those different
• 32:11
  decks.
• 32:12
  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's so interesting. you know, I always said with
• 32:17
  photographs and acting, it's like, you get to be in these different worlds, like
• 32:23
  what we were talking about. even with, you know, when I take photographs of myself
• 32:29
  and things like that, it's almost like I'm in a different world. And it's like that
• 32:35
  with the tarot, too. It's like you get to walk into this world and really experience
• 32:41
  it or have this connection with it or the images in the cards. And, you know, I've
• 32:47
  even met people after the the Hoodoo Tarot came out that looked exactly like the
• 32:53
  people that I painted in the cards. And so I was like, you are the you know, the the
• 32:59
  mother of baskets. Like, how did you exist?
• 33:03
  Right. How is that possible? Right. That's wild. That's really, really wild. Well, I
• 33:09
  know like, so what inspired this episode and for me to reach out to you was somebody
• 33:15
  coming to me who had found tarot cards in their house and had freaked out about it
• 33:21
  and immediately had demanded that they be taken away and out of their house because
• 33:27
  they were afraid that they were something evil. And so... I really wanted to talk to
• 33:33
  you about the misconceptions of what people think tarot
• 33:38
  Yeah.
• 33:38
  is and the cards themselves. And I think also like what pop culture or maybe what
• 33:44
  the general public gets wrong about what they are. So as somebody who's very well
• 33:51
  versed in this world, who's not only done readings and used them, but designed them.
• 33:57
  I'd love to talk to you more about that and getting
• 34:02
  Yeah.
• 34:03
  those kind of out of the way.
• 34:06
  Yeah.
• 34:08
  What do you think that most people get wrong about what they are?
• 34:14
  think a lot of people get wrong. What a lot of people get wrong is that they are
• 34:20
  like a fortune telling, like everything in them is going to come true. And if you
• 34:26
  don't follow it or, you know, you have no option, whatever is going to happen is
• 34:33
  going to happen. And I don't think that at all. You know, I believe that, whoops, I
• 34:39
  believe that the cards themselves are like we said, are a map. They are a guide.
• 34:46
  They are something to get you out of your head or give you confirmation. A lot of
• 34:52
  people think that maybe they're portals to something or something is gonna get in
• 34:59
  their house if they use it. you know, in that case, it's like, you know, you can do
• 35:05
  prayers beforehand, you can do things, you know, beforehand. And, you know, I once
• 35:12
  told someone, I was like, I'm not going to be afraid of images on paper. And I was
• 35:19
  like, you know, this is this is a guide. This is something that when you look at it,
• 35:25
  it creates a storyline. And you read the storyline. And, you know, so I do believe
• 35:32
  that a lot of what we see and hear about tarot is very sensationalized. I grew up in
• 35:39
  the 80s and of course, a lot of movies were like, the devil card, know, the devil
• 35:45
  card.
• 35:46
  Right, well yeah, and I think that that has really stuck and I think that they're
• 35:51
  still misrepresented in film and television. But
• 35:55
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  I think also people think that to get the reading, that the person's channeling
• 36:04
  something dark, and that there's
• 36:07
  Yum.
• 36:07
  something dark kind of feeding through that person and making those cards appear in
• 36:12
  the reading. and so, you know, that obviously is not true. I mean, I say obviously,
• 36:18
  but there's people that don't know, right? Because of maybe
• 36:22
  Yeah.
• 36:23
  the movies that we all watched growing up or just, just people,
• 36:26
  Absolutely.
• 36:28
  family members who may not be aware of what they really are, didn't grow up with
• 36:33
  them and it sounds strange to them or spooky. but yeah, I think it's, it really, I,
• 36:39
  you know, I really wanted to get to like what what it is that is happening in that
• 36:44
  moment. right, it's not a crystal ball, it's not this thing of you have to do this.
• 36:50
  It's more of a sort of a, you know, like you said, it's a map of like, hey, and I
• 36:55
  think, you know, a vehicle of reflection of like you said, they can be really
• 37:01
  Absolutely.
• 37:02
  brutal. So sometimes we know we're supposed to be doing something or we should be
• 37:05
  doing something or there's a certain path we should be on, but we're choosing not to
• 37:09
  do that or we're digging
• 37:11
  Yeah.
• 37:11
  our heels in. and maybe seeing a certain number of cards and understanding what
• 37:16
  those represent kind of confirms that yes, you should be doing something else or you
• 37:22
  should finish that
• 37:24
  Yes.
• 37:25
  project or you should go and do that.
• 37:28
  Absolutely. a lot of times, mean, you know, despite the sensationalism of things
• 37:33
  and, you know, film movies, books, or, you know, whatever we're being shown, a lot
• 37:39
  of times it's much more mundane. It's much more mundane. You know, you're sitting
• 37:45
  there with someone, maybe drinking some tea or some coffee, and you're talking about
• 37:51
  life, you know, you're, trying to just navigate situations and just get a little
• 37:56
  insight because sometimes like the mind can go into a mind loop and you're thinking
• 38:02
  about the same thing over and over and you just can't get out of it and you don't
• 38:08
  want to be there because it doesn't feel good but you can't break out of it because
• 38:14
  your mind's going what if what if and sometimes a consultation can be like hey here
• 38:20
  it is or you know here's three options you're not
• 38:24
  Right.
• 38:25
  stuck Here's three
• 38:26
  Right.
• 38:26
  options. Say you get the eight of swords. It's like, hey, you're in your head.
• 38:31
  There's a way out of this situation. You're just not seeing it because the only
• 38:37
  thing that you can see is right in front of you. You're blocked. And so something
• 38:42
  like that can be really eye-opening and be like, I'm the one blocking me. Well,
• 38:48
  like...
• 38:49
  It's always us. It always comes down to us. It's like, we love to point the fingers
• 38:55
  at other people and other things, but at the end of the day, it's like, driving the
• 39:01
  car, you know? It's like,
• 39:03
  It is!
• 39:05
  get out, turn, do something different.
• 39:06
  It is. And I think the greatest thing that I've ever realized is like, I control my
• 39:13
  emotions. I control how I react to situations. I control. So it's not someone else's
• 39:21
  doing this thing. They might be, but I control how I'm going to react to it and how.
• 39:30
  That's it exactly. I think for many, many, many years, I just always thought of
• 39:34
  myself as being a victim of life and that I had no control over anything and I just
• 39:39
  felt like I was being thrown into situations. And it wasn't until I started doing
• 39:44
  the work on myself where I went, wait a second, wait a second.
• 39:48
  Absolutely. Yeah!
• 39:52
  even though I can't control other people, I can control how I react to it. So I'm
• 39:55
  volunteering to be in
• 39:56
  Absolutely. Yes.
• 39:59
  this drama and insanity or inviting
• 40:02
  Absolutely.
• 40:03
  these situations into my life because I can just choose to walk away. Right?
• 40:07
  Yes!
• 40:08
  I don't have to engage and just learning that is so powerful.
• 40:15
  It really is. I think it's one of the most powerful things that you can ever learn
• 40:20
  is like, wow, I can walk away. It may hurt sometimes for a little bit, for a
• 40:26
  Yeah.
• 40:26
  little bit. But almost in every situation where you're say like navigating something
• 40:32
  where maybe it's like gone on too long or you're just frustrated or feeling stuck,
• 40:38
  the moment that you walk away from it, it's almost instant. But usually within a few
• 40:45
  weeks, something amazing happens.
• 40:48
  Right.
• 40:48
  And it's like a door opens or something like that. And you're like, I just.
• 40:54
  It's so, so, so true. I found that as well. And it's funny, I have a blog called
• 40:59
  State of Slay that I've had for about eight years. And I recently wrote a blog that
• 41:05
  was entitled The Other Side of Resistance is Magic, you know, because
• 41:10
  Yes.
• 41:11
  we feel the slightest little pushback and they're like, no, it wasn't meant to be,
• 41:14
  wasn't meant to be. And we
• 41:16
  Yeah!
• 41:18
  can push back. And it's like, no, keep going. You know, it probably feels that way
• 41:23
  because it's new, right? And when we do things that are new and they see, and you
• 41:28
  know, that may change us, we tend to like that fear kicks in and we're like, ooh,
• 41:33
  this feels weird. I don't know that I, this might not be right,
• 41:37
  Yeah.
• 41:37
  you know, instead of going, no, this is, this is what I should be doing. So when I
• 41:42
  think of tarot and I think of someone may be coming to you for a reading, you know,
• 41:48
  you're likely not giving them information they don't know. It's more about,
• 41:53
  confirming, you know, that of what they know, because we'll second guess
• 41:58
  Yeah.
• 41:58
  ourselves or talk ourselves out of things or just choose not to engage when we know
• 42:03
  what we should be doing or we feel like this is what I should do, but there's so
• 42:08
  many excuses why we don't do it. And so to get
• 42:11
  Exactly.
• 42:13
  to have the cards in front of us and to have you there to interpret, you know, I
• 42:18
  would guess that a lot of the time when you are doing a reading, that person has
• 42:23
  that knowing look in their eye.
• 42:25
  They almost always say, I was thinking about all of this in my head and
• 42:31
  you
• 42:32
  you just confirmed it. Cause a lot of times I'll just ask them, said, do you want to
• 42:34
  give me backstory? But you don't have to, you know, it's your choice. Some people
• 42:37
  want to give the backstory. They're like, you know,
• 42:39
  Right. Right.
• 42:42
  I just need to get this off my chest. I just, I just want to tell you. And I'm like,
• 42:47
  okay, great. And then some people are like, Hey, can you just do a general and just
• 42:52
  see what comes up? And I'm like, sure. But Almost every single consultation that
• 42:57
  I've ever done, someone has said, wow, like these are all the things that I kind of
• 43:02
  already knew and I just needed someone to affirm them.
• 43:06
  Yeah, yeah, I think that that is the case for a lot of people. I think that
• 43:10
  sometimes we can get so in our head that it just, we can't see straight and, you
• 43:15
  know, getting a reading and having it right in front of us helps us maybe to get
• 43:21
  back online. But I think a lot of times it's just us hesitating and second guessing
• 43:26
  ourselves or not believing
• 43:28
  Yeah?
• 43:29
  that we deserve something.
• 43:31
  That is real. mean, even in my own art career and or even when I started reading
• 43:37
  tarot, I started reading at one of the largest botanicas in New York. And I knew
• 43:43
  what I was doing, but I was so nervous. I would like pray beforehand. And I was
• 43:49
  like, God, please make sure that I can give a message straight because I'm like my
• 43:55
  heart would pound. And I was like, Okay, I'm getting stage fright. Like what's
• 44:01
  happening here?
• 44:03
  Well, I was going to ask you about that. So when people sit down with you, I'm sure
• 44:07
  there's a lot of a lot of many times where people put a lot of pressure on you,
• 44:12
  whether they say it or not, right, because they're wanting
• 44:16
  Yeah.
• 44:17
  a certain outcome or they're wanting
• 44:19
  Yes.
• 44:20
  you to provide that like aha moment or just their their expectations are so high
• 44:26
  that I'm
• 44:27
  Yeah.
• 44:28
  sure that you pick up on that energy sometimes and that can make it really
• 44:33
  difficult.
• 44:34
  Yeah, I think when I was working in the Botanica, it was a lot like that because you
• 44:40
  had people of all ages coming in and especially if someone was much older than me
• 44:45
  looking at me being like, you're my reader. And I got it. I was like 20 something
• 44:51
  years old and I was like, well, here, don't tell me anything. I'm gonna sit with you
• 44:57
  and you tell me afterwards how I did. And they would always be like, wow, you really
• 45:03
  just confirmed and clarified stuff for me. So that put me more at ease. think that
• 45:09
  environment, because it's literally strangers coming in, and you're working with
• 45:15
  them, but also it's a very intimate setting because you're really understanding a
• 45:21
  lot of what they're going through on a very personal day to day. and you want to be
• 45:27
  very respectful of that and you want
• 45:30
  Right.
• 45:30
  to be very clear, on what you're, you're talking to them about. And now I've done it
• 45:36
  so many years that it, feels just a lot easier for me. It's, it's almost like second
• 45:42
  nature. So, you know, if someone is nervous or whatever, I can kind of calm them
• 45:47
  down and be like, Hey, it's like, here we go. I'm going to do same thing that I used
• 45:53
  to do in the botanica. Like you just sit there. I'm gonna look at these images, I'm
• 45:59
  gonna storyboard this, I'm gonna tell you what's happening, and you just let me
• 46:05
  know.
• 46:06
  Right.
• 46:06
  And so now it's much more fluid. I mean, but it does seep up. I mean, even in my art
• 46:11
  career, you know, I will work on projects and there'll be a breaking point where
• 46:17
  like, I can't do this, I need to quit, like I'm letting everyone down. And then
• 46:22
  there's that incredible... magical breaking point where everything comes together.
• 46:28
  But, you know, I think no matter what we're doing, I feel like there's always a
• 46:33
  little bit of that. Am I doing this right? you know, or maybe we care so much that
• 46:38
  we're doing something correctly or whatever, you know, and.
• 46:43
  I think that's just part of the creative process too. Like it's
• 46:46
  Yeah.
• 46:47
  so funny and you know, going back to you know, being an actor, I remember years ago,
• 46:51
  I was at a screening and there was a panel afterwards and Meryl Streep was on the
• 46:56
  panel and she had said,
• 46:58
  Yeah.
• 46:59
  I always think I'm going to get fired in the first week and everyone laughed, right?
• 47:02
  Cause they're like, you're Meryl Streep, but she was serious. Cause she's like,
• 47:05
  haven't like,
• 47:06
  Now she's serious.
• 47:07
  haven't quite figured it out yet. And I think That's so inspiring for somebody of
• 47:11
  that caliber, right? And celebrated
• 47:14
  Yeah.
• 47:15
  that much to say that because I think every artist, no matter what discipline
• 47:19
  they're in, has that feeling of like, I'm going to get fired or I'm not going to be
• 47:25
  able to figure it out. I think for me as an actor, I never had any formal training
• 47:30
  really.
• 47:31
  Yeah.
• 47:31
  And so, I worked a little bit with coaches here and there, one-on-one, but I never
• 47:36
  really went to school or classes or anything like that. And so it was always a bit
• 47:42
  of a mystery as to like how I was doing what I was doing, you know, which is scary
• 47:47
  because you're like, what if I
• 47:50
  Yeah!
• 47:51
  can't do it today? And so, you know, I get that of like, there's times when I'm
• 47:57
  like, I'm
• 47:58
  Is it?
• 47:59
  not, it's not coming to me. Like I'm not
• 48:02
  Yeah.
• 48:02
  getting it today. I don't know why, you know. and learning that you will, to relax
• 48:07
  and maybe go do something else for a while. And maybe that's just your
• 48:13
  Absolutely.
• 48:15
  creative juices telling you, we're tapped out, go outside, go do something. Yeah, so
• 48:22
  I get
• 48:23
  Absolutely.
• 48:25
  that of that feeling. I think everyone does at some point of like, or it's not going
• 48:29
  the way I wanted, or I can't do that, or I don't know. And again, it's usually
• 48:34
  eggs.
• 48:35
  because you're pushing yourself, right?
• 48:37
  Yeah.
• 48:37
  You're challenging yourself. And so that your mind kicks in and is like, you're not
• 48:42
  gonna pull this off. Who do you think you are? And that's usually, as I was
• 48:48
  mentioning earlier with the blog, that's usually when the magic happens. If you
• 48:54
  don't back down and you just keep going.
• 48:57
  Exactly. And I mean, that's what would happen when I was working on the tarot decks,
• 49:00
  you know, I would get a few good cards and I was like, well, I guess that's all
• 49:04
  that's in me. know, it's just going to be a couple of cards,
• 49:07
  Right, that's it. It's just going to be a couple of cards, this deck.
• 49:10
  but then you kind of like work through that process. And the interesting thing about
• 49:15
  creating decks is you kind of live through the cards too. So as you're creating
• 49:19
  them, all of these different things are happening and you're just like, man, like
• 49:24
  this is, you know,
• 49:26
  That's interesting.
• 49:27
  I gotta understand them because you're really having certain things kind of happen
• 49:32
  at the same time. And so, you know, that's why I'm not afraid of any certain cards
• 49:37
  anymore. You know, I see the tower and I'm like, okay, probably gonna get an
• 49:42
  unpleasant truth, but you know, it'll be good for me and
• 49:46
  Right, gotta hear it.
• 49:47
  I'll move on and I'll, you know, but, or, you know, you get something like the death
• 49:52
  card and you're like, okay, so like what in my life am I? leaving behind? Like, what
• 49:57
  Right.
• 49:58
  am I, you know, going into? Because, you know, there is that that sort of process
• 50:03
  where you're just like, okay. And so it really makes you understand the cycles of
• 50:08
  life, you know, like the fool's journey, it makes you understand all of these
• 50:14
  things. And also, one of the things that I do love about it is that, you know, when
• 50:19
  someone is getting a reading, like they're going to like, learn things about
• 50:24
  themselves. They're going to get this information and tools. And, you know, even
• 50:30
  when we are talking about like, man, can I do this? Can I go forward? Can I, you
• 50:35
  know, am I, am I, should I just back out? Am I going to get fired? Am I going to do
• 50:41
  this? And a lot of times the terror will tell us like, look, you are overthinking.
• 50:46
  You are really like getting into this space and you need to believe in yourself
• 50:52
  because other people are believing in you and what's going on here. So that's one of
• 50:57
  the beautiful things about tarot. It's like even when you are feeling that way, it
• 51:03
  can be like, hey, honestly, this is a thought cycle. This is a loop. You got to get
• 51:08
  out. And I know
• 51:10
  Right.
• 51:10
  I've said that before, but it's such an important part of a consultation or a
• 51:16
  reading.
• 51:17
  think another misconception too is that somehow when you're giving a reading that
• 51:22
  you're somehow like predicting the future or, you know,
• 51:26
  Yeah.
• 51:26
  and I think that's something we can talk about as well. Again, going back to the
• 51:32
  fortune teller, it's like, you know, that's not what's going on.
• 51:37
  Yeah, it's really not. you know, it's sometimes, you know, someone will be able to
• 51:43
  kind of, you know, tap into something, but most of the time it really is about
• 51:50
  what's going on right now. You know, what are the steps to really, you know, focus
• 51:56
  on? you know, I often see a lot of people, you know, talking about, well, I got
• 52:03
  this, this, you know, reading once and this woman told me, that I was gonna marry
• 52:09
  this person and they turned out to be an awful person. And it's just like, okay,
• 52:16
  well, that's, sometimes there are scammers out there. Sometimes there is someone
• 52:22
  that's gonna take advantage of that or, but a lot of times when you are looking at
• 52:29
  it, it's just sort of giving you really everyday information. And that's what I see
• 52:36
  it as, is this everyday information. What can I do in my life that is gonna enhance
• 52:43
  my relationships? What can I look at that maybe needs some work? It's gonna be more
• 52:50
  of that than this sort of, in three years time, you will blah, blah. Yes.
• 52:56
  you're going to meet a man on a horse and he's going to whisk you away to a castle.
• 53:01
  Right? I think that's what everyone, that's the reading everyone wants, right? It's
• 53:06
  like, okay,
• 53:07
  Yeah.
• 53:07
  and all your problems will be solved. I think that, you
• 53:10
  Exactly.
• 53:11
  know, what I learned in going through my mental health journey and, you know,
• 53:16
  working on my life and myself was that it was up to me to do the work.
• 53:21
  Yes, absolutely.
• 53:21
  Like there wasn't a magical solution. It's like it took a lot and it's ongoing. Like
• 53:27
  there's no graduation right from life.
• 53:30
  No.
• 53:30
  So you keep going, I guess, until you can't. But there's so much so much of it
• 53:35
  relies on you doing the actual work. And I think that people probably
• 53:41
  Absolutely.
• 53:42
  do come to you think like, just want you to give me all the answers and then I can
• 53:46
  just walk away with them. And you they
• 53:48
  Yeah.
• 53:49
  probably leave with more questions. than anything, right? Because in terms of the
• 53:54
  cards, it's an interpretation and
• 53:57
  Yes.
• 53:58
  you don't know them like they do. So you
• 54:01
  Yeah.
• 54:01
  can give them an interpretation based on what you do know and what you're seeing,
• 54:05
  but it's up to them
• 54:06
  Yes.
• 54:06
  to take that information and go, how do I apply this to my life? And where do I go
• 54:11
  Absolutely.
• 54:12
  from here? So they have to actually do the work. It's not some
• 54:16
  Yes.
• 54:17
  magical spell that's gonna make everything better.
• 54:20
  No, and you know, it's so interesting because so much of you know, tarot and even
• 54:24
  when you know, people were talking about vision boards and things like that, you
• 54:28
  know, people will be like, I don't know what's happening. I made a vision board and
• 54:32
  nothing happened. And it's like, no, you have to do things. You
• 54:36
  You have to do this stuff.
• 54:39
  don't just make the collage. Yeah, so it's one of those things where it's like, wow,
• 54:44
  you know, it's giving you this information. And you definitely have to even work on
• 54:50
  like the darker aspects, the shadow, you know, parts of yourself, because those
• 54:56
  right.
• 54:56
  are the parts of yourself that are really holding yourself back. know, and so it
• 55:00
  gives you just sort of this guide. And then sometimes it's like, hey, you're doing
• 55:06
  good, you know, like, or, know, like, hey, you're actually on the right path, it may
• 55:11
  not feel like it right now. But it's because
• 55:14
  bright.
• 55:14
  you're doing baby steps and baby steps can bring you huge results. But while you're
• 55:19
  doing them, it doesn't really feel like anything. So
• 55:23
  And that's it.
• 55:23
  when someone is reading the tarot or doing something along those lines, they're
• 55:28
  giving you ideas, exercises, things to think about and to kind of either journal
• 55:33
  about or if someone is talking with a therapist to talk to the therapist about or
• 55:38
  just to really kind of expand and break out of these, you know, systems in our
• 55:43
  brains, because our brains are wired against us, you know, it's like you're in
• 55:48
  danger. Here's all the things that could happen. And like, let's think of all the
• 55:54
  ways that we can maybe get out of them and also be stuck in them. And, and so no,
• 55:59
  you would think and like
• 56:01
  Right. It's not always working in our favor. You would think that they are.
• 56:07
  our poor little brains, you know, like, it's just like, we're helping you, you know,
• 56:11
  you and you're like, it's not helping.
• 56:13
  No, you're not. You're not helping.
• 56:15
  But you know, I always feel like and I use the term rewiring your brain because I do
• 56:20
  feel like it's such an important tool and it's so very hard. But when you do have
• 56:24
  like something like you're getting a consultation or something like that and you
• 56:29
  have that information, you can remind yourself like, I'm in a bad place right now.
• 56:34
  So let me do, you know, think about these tools. that I learned about or let me
• 56:39
  think about this consultation that I had where it was telling me not to worry so
• 56:44
  much or it was telling me to take a couple small steps in the direction I wanna
• 56:48
  take. And you know what? I'll just focus on that right now. And I'm not gonna focus
• 56:53
  on the what ifs. I'm just gonna focus on the steps that I can take. So in that
• 56:58
  aspect, it can be a really, really good tool. And it's not about the fortune
• 57:03
  telling. It's about, Really just looking at your life and being like, okay, what can
• 57:08
  I do to shift this? What can I do to get me out of this situation? You know, if it's
• 57:13
  a work thing, like maybe it's like you don't like replying to emails and you're
• 57:18
  missing opportunities because you get scared to write back or you get anxiety and
• 57:22
  it's you know, the the the cards will be like, hey, you got to take an action when
• 57:27
  it comes, you know, get into the mode where you're like, I'm gonna write back to
• 57:32
  this right away. And and that's what I'm gonna do. And of course there's always
• 57:37
  gonna be blips in the road, but a lot of times, you know, it's either fear or
• 57:42
  something coming up that's blocking us or like you said, you know, like not feeling
• 57:47
  good enough or even that can be subconscious too. You could be like, but I know I'm
• 57:52
  good enough, but your subconscious has learned all these things. Self-sabotage and
• 57:57
  God, self-sabotage.
• 58:00
  you don't even realize you're doing it and you've, you know, An hour later, you're
• 58:05
  like, wow, I just made so many excuses and I could have just done the action and it
• 58:10
  would have taken a minute.
• 58:12
  Right, right. think about like in my life there were so many times, just out of
• 58:17
  fear, right? Fear
• 58:19
  Yeah.
• 58:19
  of not being good enough, fear of not saying the right thing, fear of everything. I
• 58:23
  was afraid of everything. And times that I would like create these like little white
• 58:28
  lies because I thought, I don't even know what I thought. There were times I didn't
• 58:32
  even know
• 58:33
  Yeah?
• 58:33
  I was doing it that just made it worse, right?
• 58:36
  I know.
• 58:38
  And when I just would... tell people the truth. I think it was that, you know, was a
• 58:41
  lot of people pleasing, right? And
• 58:43
  Yeah.
• 58:44
  not wanting to disappoint people by saying no. And so I'd create these elaborate
• 58:48
  tales as a storyteller. But just telling someone the truth, people would be like,
• 58:53
  you know what? I really appreciate that you said that. And just the relief of that,
• 58:57
  right? Of like, holy
• 58:59
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 59:02
  smokes, why wasn't I doing this all along?
• 59:05
  Yeah!
• 59:06
  You know, is huge. is huge. Well, I just I love that you've really unpacked the
• 59:13
  mystery of tarot, at least I think you have. You know, and I think that, you know,
• 59:20
  it really is just a tool. It's no different than going and talking to a therapist or
• 59:28
  your favorite uncle or aunt or, you know, best friend or like I
• 59:34
  Yeah.
• 59:34
  said, asking the universe for a sign, give me a sign.
• 59:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 59:40
  I know in my life that when I not taking the action I should, and I know that I
• 59:45
  should, that I will keep getting different signs. Like, it's like, hello,
• 59:50
  Yes.
• 59:50
  hello, right? And it'll keep happening where I'm like,
• 59:53
  Absolutely.
• 59:54
  okay, I get it.
• 59:56
  Yeah.
• 59:57
  I get it. And to me, not using tarot, Those are my signs, right? But when you have a
• 1:00:03
  deck of cards and you know how to interpret them, that is a way, as you said, like a
• 1:00:09
  map that can sort of
• 1:00:11
  Absolutely.
• 1:00:12
  show you the direction, right? Even though probably a lot of times you know that
• 1:00:16
  direction. Just to
• 1:00:18
  Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  kind of get you on that path and to look at things in a very honest and frank way.
• 1:00:27
  Yeah, and also too, I mean, it can be used as a writing prompt too. You you pull a
• 1:00:32
  card, you see what the meaning is and you're journaling and you're like, okay, let
• 1:00:37
  me kind of dig deep in myself and see, you know, if there's anything that needs to
• 1:00:42
  come up that is, you know, in the same sort of sphere as the meaning of the card.
• 1:00:47
  And it's amazing kind of what it will unlock. And you're like, I didn't even think
• 1:00:53
  of that. I didn't even know I was doing that.
• 1:00:56
  Yeah, that's really interesting. Writing is very meditative. I'm not in the practice
• 1:01:01
  of doing it right now, but in the times that I do, there's often, like, I'll get to
• 1:01:06
  the end and be like, gosh, do I think that? Like, where did that come from? Because
• 1:01:12
  Yeah!
• 1:01:13
  there's something about getting pen on paper and just free flow writing that...
• 1:01:20
  Yeah.
• 1:01:21
  will bring stuff out in you that you're like, holy smokes, like where did that all
• 1:01:26
  come from? And I need to really read this. I guess I really feel this way. It's
• 1:01:32
  Yeah.
• 1:01:32
  interesting how things flow out that way.
• 1:01:36
  Absolutely. So it's, you know, it's, it's a tool. It is a tool.
• 1:01:41
  Yeah, I think, you know, and I think about people's fear around the cards. I, know,
• 1:01:46
  I guess to a lot of that comes from pop culture, movies, things we grew up with, or,
• 1:01:51
  you know, like I said, family members that may have a certain bias towards them for
• 1:01:56
  whatever reason.
• 1:01:58
  year.
• 1:01:59
  There's nothing in them themselves that, you know, are evil or trying to cause harm
• 1:02:05
  or any of those things. I think they get kind of
• 1:02:10
  No.
• 1:02:11
  lumped. into the same bucket as a lot of other things that may be used to contact,
• 1:02:16
  you know, things that are more dark. you know, from my understanding is that it
• 1:02:21
  really is just a, it's just, it's a guide, just a way to get you to think about
• 1:02:26
  where you are and where you want to go and maybe give you some
• 1:02:30
  Exactly.
• 1:02:31
  prompts to get there.
• 1:02:33
  Exactly. That's exactly it. You know, it's we definitely had a lot of ideas and
• 1:02:38
  imagery about them, you know, over the years, whether it's through books or movies
• 1:02:44
  or like you said, you know, family members or, you know, people that may just see it
• 1:02:49
  in a different light and but there isn't anything on them. It's images. There's some
• 1:02:55
  symbols, you know, you can look that up. and see where they got the symbols, where
• 1:03:01
  they got the imagery. And of course, there's always gonna be people that abuse
• 1:03:06
  something, you know, like there's people that read the Bible and abuse it. There's
• 1:03:12
  people that read there and then, know, and it's just, it is about discernment too.
• 1:03:18
  So, you know, when you are looking either to consult for yourself or find someone,
• 1:03:23
  it really is about who you feel comfortable with, who is going to, you know, really
• 1:03:29
  allow you to kind of speak freely and, you know, be yourself in that aspect. And so,
• 1:03:35
  you know, the thing with the tarot is when you think about it and you're kind of
• 1:03:40
  looking for, you know, guidance from it, it all comes down to yourself. You know, we
• 1:03:46
  have dreams every night. We can interpret those. They tell us a lot about our
• 1:03:52
  subconscious. And the tarot does the same. It's imagery that's going to tell you a
• 1:03:57
  lot about your subconscious or your day to day.
• 1:04:01
  Right, interesting. And I always love when people pull out, there's angel cards and
• 1:04:05
  all kinds of different cards, and when they're like, this is exactly, this is my
• 1:04:10
  life right now, exactly.
• 1:04:12
  Yeah.
• 1:04:13
  It's like, yeah, well, you pick out what you need. And there's probably something in
• 1:04:18
  every single one of those cards that you're going to identify with, because there's
• 1:04:23
  always so much going on in our lives. And there's things that
• 1:04:27
  Absolutely.
• 1:04:28
  we're working on, and there's things that we're... you know, struggling with and
• 1:04:32
  great things that are happening in our lives, because it's all happening at the same
• 1:04:37
  time.
• 1:04:38
  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, when you do see the message, it's like,
• 1:04:42
  okay, maybe I should think about this, you know, for the day and maybe I should, you
• 1:04:47
  know, change some things or maybe I'm being too negative and I've got to kind of be
• 1:04:52
  kinder to myself. That's a big one.
• 1:04:54
  Right. Yeah, yeah. That one sounded personal.
• 1:05:01
  It is a bit personal.
• 1:05:03
  I also think that in a world where we have so many distractions, constantly, screens
• 1:05:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:05:10
  everywhere, and all this information coming at us, I would feel like tarot is
• 1:05:14
  something that really sort of grounds you and makes everything very present.
• 1:05:19
  Yes. Yes.
• 1:05:22
  Especially if you're focused on that reading, what the interpretation is, and you're
• 1:05:28
  really... in yourself and grounded and thinking about what does this mean in my
• 1:05:34
  life? And to me, that's a good thing. I think that
• 1:05:38
  Yes.
• 1:05:39
  there's just so many ways that we get distracted and those distractions cause us to
• 1:05:45
  stay stuck in a place and
• 1:05:47
  Yes.
• 1:05:47
  immobile, right? It's like we're constantly inundated with all this information
• 1:05:51
  coming at us in real time. I don't know that we were sort of wired to get that much
• 1:05:56
  information at that speed.
• 1:05:58
  Yeah, I don't think we were. There's been studies about that is that we're getting
• 1:06:02
  Yeah.
• 1:06:03
  too much information and we just don't, we don't have the capacity to fully process
• 1:06:08
  all of it.
• 1:06:09
  Yeah, so when I think about a reading, really, are very present, you're very
• 1:06:13
  present, the person that is sitting
• 1:06:15
  Yes.
• 1:06:15
  across from you is very present or if they're doing it themselves. And in that
• 1:06:20
  moment, you're very focused on that intention. So I think that in a sense, it's kind
• 1:06:26
  of, it's cool to kind of go back to, know, those sort of old world types of
• 1:06:31
  practices. And there's a reason
• 1:06:34
  Yeah.
• 1:06:35
  why They exist, right? It's not a parlor trick, right? It's been around a long time
• 1:06:38
  and it
• 1:06:39
  Yeah, it's
• 1:06:44
  really is just more of a guidance and something that's very, should
• 1:06:47
  Absolutely.
• 1:06:48
  be very thought provoking and hopefully, and a vehicle to take action
• 1:06:56
  Yeah.
• 1:06:56
  in your life.
• 1:06:58
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:07:00
  I think one other thing I wanted to discuss with you is if somebody is looking for a
• 1:07:04
  reading, what is it that they
• 1:07:06
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:07
  want to look for in someone that they know they can trust or who might be a good
• 1:07:13
  person for them to sit down with?
• 1:07:16
  Usually it is someone that you feel comfortable with first and foremost. Like if
• 1:07:21
  you, you know, say you're, I mean, everything is so online right now. Say you're
• 1:07:26
  looking at someone and you're like, you know what? I kind of like what they're
• 1:07:31
  about. I kind of like the way that they present themselves. So that's one of the
• 1:07:36
  things. Another thing is someone that is not too like hounding people for, know, if
• 1:07:41
  you need a reading right now, you know, or pushy with it. That usually is like a red
• 1:07:46
  flag if someone's pushing you into it you're like, I don't know,
• 1:07:51
  Right.
• 1:07:51
  maybe not. A lot of times it's gonna depend on the way that the person reads, but
• 1:07:56
  there's a lot of readers out there. If you talk to a few of them, they're not gonna
• 1:08:01
  be, they're gonna recommend other people too. mean, there's times people have come
• 1:08:07
  to me and I'm like, I don't actually think I'm the right person for you, but. I do
• 1:08:12
  know someone that I think is gonna be amazing. And so, you know, it's good to have
• 1:08:18
  conversation. It's good to have a dialogue back and forth a little bit.
• 1:08:23
  Right.
• 1:08:24
  You know, and some people don't always allow that, but you know, I think if you
• 1:08:29
  watch someone enough and you see them in the way that they sort of interact with
• 1:08:34
  their audience or, you know, people around, you're gonna, you know, have a feeling
• 1:08:39
  about them. Even at stores too, you know, maybe you want something in person that's
• 1:08:44
  not online or, know, you can walk into a store and be like, you know what, let me
• 1:08:50
  just see how I feel around this reader that's, you know, maybe in a store. And if
• 1:08:55
  you feel good about it you're just like, you know what, I want to try it, then
• 1:09:00
  that's usually a good indication. But there's a lot of really good legitimate
• 1:09:05
  readers out there. I would definitely just look around a little bit, just see what
• 1:09:10
  people are at. because jumping around from person to person is fine if you want to
• 1:09:16
  experiment. If
• 1:09:17
  Right.
• 1:09:18
  you're like, I'm in that experimental mood, I'm going to just see what people say.
• 1:09:23
  But it is important that you have someone that is going to be very truthful to you,
• 1:09:29
  very honest, and is really going to provide you with the information that you need.
• 1:09:35
  But it is a very personal thing.
• 1:09:38
  Yeah, mean, definitely. I think for someone that's not used to going to someone for
• 1:09:41
  a reading, it feels vulnerable, you know, and
• 1:09:44
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
• 1:09:47
  I think like everything else, you need to check them out because, you know, there's
• 1:09:50
  definitely things, you know, cases I've heard where people are like, well, I went to
• 1:09:54
  get a reading, but and they said there was all this negative stuff and then I had to
• 1:09:58
  go see someone else. And I'm like, okay,
• 1:10:00
  Yeah.
• 1:10:01
  that's strange, you know, or not
• 1:10:03
  Yeah.
• 1:10:04
  strange, but that okay. You know, and you just got to you just got to really you
• 1:10:09
  know you use your intuition like do you feel comfortable and and do you get a good
• 1:10:15
  feeling from this person and and ask around to their might your friends might know
• 1:10:20
  somebody or Yeah
• 1:10:22
  Absolutely. mean, people ask around all the time, you know, especially if they want
• 1:10:26
  someone in person and they're not, you know, I'm not in the same state or whatever.
• 1:10:31
  And, you know, I'll be like, yeah, I know, you know, these people, they're great.
• 1:10:35
  You know, even just, but definitely just asking and, you know, they're going to find
• 1:10:40
  their person.
• 1:10:41
  Right, right. Now I know that you sometimes do readings. Are you doing readings
• 1:10:44
  right now?
• 1:10:45
  Mm-hmm. so I am actually about to go to Europe for a couple weeks. But after that, I
• 1:10:51
  will open up for some consultations after that. And usually I try to do it in
• 1:10:57
  between. If I have a lot of projects or really in-depth projects, I won't take on
• 1:11:04
  anything. But I usually announce it on Instagram or Facebook or... You know, I'll
• 1:11:10
  announce, for the next like three weeks, I'm taking consultations or if someone
• 1:11:16
  messages me and I happen to have some free time, I'm happy to take someone on. But
• 1:11:23
  it really depends on the schedule that I'm at
• 1:11:27
  Right.
• 1:11:28
  for that.
• 1:11:29
  Well, I'll definitely put all of Katelan's information in the show notes where you
• 1:11:31
  can find her on social media
• 1:11:33
  Thank you.
• 1:11:34
  and her website, and you can find out more information about her and all of the
• 1:11:40
  projects that she's doing.
• 1:11:42
  I'm
• 1:11:44
  Because there's a lot of them. And you can see more
• 1:11:46
  There's a lot.
• 1:11:47
  of your incredible artwork and in all the different ways that you have been able to
• 1:11:52
  express yourself and share your talents. It's incredible. And just when I look at
• 1:11:57
  the scope of work that you have from designing product
• 1:12:01
  Thank you.
• 1:12:03
  labels to store, you know, all of the stuff you did with the tea shop. my goodness.
• 1:12:10
  Yeah.
• 1:12:11
  And just so many things. So you, I always love to see what you're up to and see what
• 1:12:17
  art you are, you know, celebrating and sharing with us. and I'll make sure that
• 1:12:23
  everybody has all your information so they can follow you
• 1:12:28
  Yes.
• 1:12:28
  as well.
• 1:12:29
  Thank you.
• 1:12:31
  Well, thank you so much for joining me. And I think that it really helped to kind of
• 1:12:37
  really ground what tarot is and get a sense of what it is for real instead of, you
• 1:12:42
  know, the fears and superstition and all those 80s movies, depictions.
• 1:12:48
  I I love them, but they... I look at them sometimes and I'm like,
• 1:12:56
  They did not get it right. It's so funny because since we've started doing
• 1:13:02
  investigations, it's funny now because I love to see, I love to watch horror movies
• 1:13:10
  and all
• 1:13:11
  Yeah.
• 1:13:11
  of those things and I'll sit there and be like, that's not how it happens.
• 1:13:16
  I I always tell people, was like, everything is so much more mundane. It's like,
• 1:13:20
  it's so different.
• 1:13:22
  Right. I did a post recently on the Echoes of the South social media and I was like,
• 1:13:27
  what people think that it's like to investigate the paranormal. I did like, was
• 1:13:32
  like, you know, like, you know, crazy music and whatever.
• 1:13:36
  Hehehehehe
• 1:13:38
  I'm like, and what it's really like. And it was like elevator music and us like
• 1:13:42
  sitting quietly, right. Listening in a room.
• 1:13:45
  listening, doing a sound check, making sure something's recording in case you catch
• 1:13:49
  something.
• 1:13:50
  just listening quietly asking if anyone wants to come and talk to us. But yet it can
• 1:13:56
  be very exhilarating and exciting too, but it's just funny. It's not, a metal band.
• 1:14:02
  It's not,
• 1:14:03
  Yeah, it's...
• 1:14:06
  it's a, you know, it's a, it's a lot of sitting around.
• 1:14:10
  Yeah, absolutely. I feel that. I feel like everything that I do, whether it's tarot
• 1:14:16
  or art, everyone's like, wow, you're just doing this glamorous thing. I was like, I
• 1:14:22
  don't think you understand. I'm sitting at my desk trying to figure
• 1:14:28
  Right.
• 1:14:28
  things out or do a consultation. So everything is a lot less sensationalized in real
• 1:14:36
  life. There's so
• 1:14:38
  in real life.
• 1:14:39
  much that we see. then of course, like afterwards, you see the, you know, best of
• 1:14:45
  parts. And so it's, you know, even if you're depicting something realistically, it's
• 1:14:53
  still gonna be the best of parts.
• 1:14:56
  Right.
• 1:14:57
  And so there's so much that goes on in the background of everything that no one
• 1:15:02
  sees. Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Right, with everything, with everything. I think of anything that we see that we
• 1:15:09
  really look at in awe in terms of talent or artistic impression. You don't see the
• 1:15:16
  hundreds and thousands of hours of struggle, of frustration, of I
• 1:15:22
  Yeah.
• 1:15:23
  can't make this happen, this isn't right, I hate this. You just see the celebration,
• 1:15:28
  I know, I know.
• 1:15:30
  you see the highlight reel.
• 1:15:31
  You do.
• 1:15:32
  Yeah, there's a lot that goes into making that happen. so, yes, that's where tarot
• 1:15:37
  comes in, possibly for people, kind of keeps you on the right track, gives you that
• 1:15:42
  map, gives you the breadcrumbs, and then you've got to pick them up and make
• 1:15:47
  something of it. At the end of the day, it's all
• 1:15:51
  Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:15:54
  about you've got to take the action. You've got to take the action and make those
• 1:15:58
  changes for yourself.
• 1:16:00
  Exactly, it is so important. And it's just like, I always tell people, I'm like,
• 1:16:06
  just remember baby steps. Like you may not think that you're doing anything big, but
• 1:16:12
  then look at what you accomplish in like three months, six months, a year, and just
• 1:16:19
  taking one little action a day.
• 1:16:22
  Yeah, no, that's it. And we don't see it ourselves.
• 1:16:24
  Huge changes.
• 1:16:25
  We don't see those little steps. Other people see it, but we don't because we're
• 1:16:26
  always looking
• 1:16:27
  No. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:16:30
  for the big moments, the big, you
• 1:16:32
  Exactly.
• 1:16:33
  know, and don't realize that when you keep doing those little steps, it turns into a
• 1:16:37
  big result, you know, from consistency.
• 1:16:39
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:16:41
  Yeah. Well, Katelan, thank you so much for joining me today. I love this talk and it
• 1:16:47
  felt just, I feel good. I feel more grounded now. We didn't even do a reading.
• 1:16:53
  Yes. It's so nice talking
• 1:17:01
  Well, I look forward to catching up.
• 1:17:02
  with you.
• 1:17:03
  Yes, I look forward to catching up with you soon. Have a wonderful trip and we'll
• 1:17:07
  talk again,
• 1:17:08
  Thank you.
• 1:17:09
  I'm sure.
• 1:17:11
  Yes, thank you.
• 1:17:14
  For all the mystery built around Tarot, maybe one of the biggest misconceptions is
• 1:17:19
  that the cards are supposed to have all the answers. What kept coming up in my
• 1:17:25
  conversation with Katelan was something much simpler. A card can make you stop. It
• 1:17:31
  can make you look at something differently. It can challenge the story you've been
• 1:17:37
  telling yourself. Or bring your attention back to something you already knew, but it
• 1:17:43
  can't make the decision for you. It can't take the next step. That's still up to us.
• 1:17:49
  And maybe that's why a practice surrounded by so much mystery can ultimately be
• 1:17:55
  something very human. Sometimes we just need a different way of seeing. What's
• 1:18:00
  already there? If you've had an unexplained experience or would like to request an
• 1:18:06
  investigation, visit EchoesOfTheSouth.com . join us as we continue uncovering the
• 1:18:12
  stories, the history, and the mysteries that echo throughout the South. Until next
• 1:18:18
  time. Stay close.