Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / How Substances Hijack Motivation and Meaning in Young Brains, with Dr. Judith Grisel

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How Substances Hijack Motivation and Meaning in Young Brains, with Dr. Judith Grisel · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

0:02
Judith: It really doesn't work for young people to say, don't do this, or, this is going to hurt you.
0:10
Judith: We're, we're reckless by nature, by biology, actually.
0:15
Judith: There's genetics of this recklessness.
0:18
Judith: I think what I want to do with my kids and my students and society is create and ensure more opportunities for young people to go to the edge of their experience and then a little more without self destructing.
0:45
Brenda: You're listening to HopeStream.
0:47
Brenda: If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program, or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place.
0:56
Brenda: This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled.
1:06
Brenda: This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents.
1:10
Brenda: So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity.
1:14
Brenda: org.
1:15
Brenda: I'm so glad you're here.
1:17
Brenda: Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people.
1:23
Brenda: And now let's get into today's show.
1:25
Brenda: Hi, friend.
1:26
Brenda: Thanks for hanging out with me today.
1:28
Brenda: Before I share a bit about today's guest, I want to check in, as I often do.
1:34
Brenda: I do this because I don't know if anyone else is doing this with you.
1:38
Brenda: I know no one was doing this with me when I was in the crazy.
1:44
Brenda: So just do a quick scan of your body.
1:47
Brenda: See what feels tight.
1:49
Brenda: Maybe take a few intentionally deep breaths.
1:54
Brenda: Even as I write and record episodes, I find myself holding my breath, and I can feel my shoulders creeping up to my earlobes.
2:01
Brenda: It is just how we get at times, so it's important to pay attention to what your body is telling you.
2:10
Brenda: Give it a little bit of a shake, jiggle your arms and roll your neck to loosen things up.
2:17
Brenda: And the oxygen from a few deep breaths can calm your nervous system quickly if it's on high alert.
2:25
Brenda: See, doesn't that feel good?
2:27
Brenda: Today you are getting a twofer episode and that's because it is a unbelievable recovery story and an educational episode all wrapped in one.
2:41
Brenda: When I heard about Dr.
2:42
Brenda: Judy Grisell and watched her TEDx talk on YouTube, which I am linking to in the show notes, I knew I had to track her down for a conversation.
2:53
Brenda: And I am so glad I did, because what she shared with me is information and insight that I have not heard from anyone anywhere in over 250 episodes, hundreds of conversations about why young people like, I guess I should say, scratch that, they love marijuana from both the biological and social perspective.
3:21
Brenda: Dr.
3:22
Brenda: Grazel is the author of Never Enough, The Neuroscience and Experience of Addiction.
3:27
Brenda: And is an internationally recognized behavioral neuroscientist and professor of psychology at Bucknell university.
3:35
Brenda: She is known for her research on the role of the brain in drug addiction.
3:40
Brenda: She is also a person in long term recovery.
3:44
Brenda: 38 and a half years to be exact.
3:47
Brenda: Dr.
3:47
Brenda: Griselle's recent research helps explain the different trajectories of alcohol abuse in men and women, which comes from her expertise in pharmacology and genetics.
3:58
Brenda: Her research focuses on determining the root causes of addiction.
4:02
Brenda: And we hit on a wide ranging series of topics in our conversation.
4:08
Brenda: You're going to hear how this brilliant neuroscientist and professor began her quote unquote research with alcohol at 12, and then ended up getting kicked out of one high school and two colleges, was homeless, got hepatitis C from using dirty needles, and really did not like herself to say the least.
4:30
Brenda: I feel like we could have just covered this part of Judy's story, but you're also going to get to hear from her about the reason marijuana is the number one killer of motivation, why it impacts young people even more so than cocaine or opioids, and why it is so, so important for our kids to find meaning.
4:52
Brenda: and try on different identities as they are developing from adolescence into young adulthood.
4:58
Brenda: This, my friend, is truly a fascinating conversation.
5:02
Brenda: I won't delay it any longer.
5:04
Brenda: Take a listen to Dr.
5:06
Brenda: Judy Grazell.
5:07
Brenda: Enjoy.
5:22
Brenda: Dr.
5:23
Brenda: Judy Grazell, thanks for hanging out with me today.
5:26
Brenda: We could probably talk for days and days.
5:28
Brenda: So I finally had to hit record because otherwise we'll be like three hours in and never, never get to the podcast.
5:35
Brenda: So thanks for coming in and sharing some time with me.
5:38
Brenda: I'm really happy to be here, Brenda.
5:41
Brenda: In doing research for the episode, I assumed that your book had just come out because usually, I'm, I'm talking to people who just have new books out and I was so excited to see that you published your book in 2019 and it has so much traction.
5:58
Brenda: So first of all, congratulations on that.
6:00
Brenda: That's a sign of a good book.
6:02
Brenda: What does that mean to you when you, when you think about that?
6:05
Judith: Well, it's overwhelming.
6:07
Judith: It took 10 years to write.
6:09
Judith: And I wrote it mostly out of frustration and then maybe I could say this, right before it came out, I thought, Oh my gosh, what am I doing?
6:18
Judith: Cause it was a kind of a big left turn from my normal, uh, career kind of life.
6:24
Judith: And I thought, well nobody's going to read it anyway, so it'll be fine.
6:27
Judith: It'll just get buried there and I'll get it off my chest more or less.
6:32
Judith: And then, uh, so it's been gratifying in retrospect, but also opened up a lot for me in terms of my self understanding, but also my understanding of how people suffer with addiction.
6:47
Judith: What that looks like on the ground, I am a behavioral neuroscientist, so I had been studying mouse genetics and pharmacology, and I got into that kind of the long way.
6:59
Judith: I, I started with an interest in drugs when I was about 12.
7:05
Judith: And uh, I spent about a decade investigating, you could say, on the streets.
7:13
Judith: And as a result, uh, got, a lot of consequences piled up.
7:19
Judith: I grew up in a very, uh, I don't think this is a normal home maybe, but it was a, it was a pretty good house as they go.
7:28
Judith: I grew up on the East Coast.
7:30
Judith: My dad was an airline pilot.
7:32
Judith: A nice girl in toy took my first drink and shortly after that, my first of many other things.
7:39
Judith: And I was probably still a nice girl, but no one could see it, including me.
7:44
Judith: I lost a lot.
7:46
Judith: I was kicked out of three schools, the first one in 10th grade and two colleges.
7:51
Judith: I was homeless.
7:53
Judith: I was, uh, I got Hepatitis C from using dirty needles.
7:59
Judith: I did not like myself.
8:02
Judith: And I ended up in treatment.
8:03
Judith: This was in the 80s, which is a long time ago.
8:07
Judith: And I had no idea what treatment was.
8:09
Judith: I knew that I needed a break.
8:12
Judith: And I thought, yeah, I deserve some.
8:14
Judith: Like spa treatment or something.
8:16
Judith: I don't know what I thought.
8:17
Judith: I tricked into it and then when I saw the nurses and they actually, so I had just turned 23, they sent me to the children's version of this treatment center in Minnesota because I was about 13 emotionally.
8:33
Brenda: Yeah.
8:34
Judith: And I was, Well, first I was pissed, and then I was scared, and then I was maybe just a little curious.
8:43
Judith: And so that is something that I'm very grateful for, because when they said, you're, you're dying, you have, it's a fork in the road, Judy, what are you going to do?
8:54
Judith: I thought, well, I don't want to be abstinent, but there's probably a back door.
9:00
Judith: So for some reason, I figured that I could.
9:05
Judith: Solve my problem and use without killing myself.
9:10
Brenda: How'd that go?
9:11
Judith: Well, for all my addictive tendencies, I'm not a huge gambler.
9:16
Judith: So I was hedging my bets and I thought, okay, I've got this idea that in seven years I can fix this and then I can go back and just dabble.
9:27
Judith: And but at the same time I was taking advice, so I was having like two tracks.
9:33
Brenda: What was the
9:33
Judith: seven years?
9:34
Judith: I'm curious.
9:35
Judith: Why did you think?
9:36
Judith: It was totally irrational.
9:37
Judith: I, for some reason, I thought even though I started at 12 and quit, about 10 years later, I thought that I was really only really bad for seven years.
9:50
Judith: And so I somehow thought I could undo that.
9:53
Judith: My treatment center said, if you want to live, you're going to have to be abstinent.
9:58
Judith: And I thought, no way.
10:01
Judith: Not me.
10:02
Judith: That's me.
10:02
Judith: That is not me.
10:04
Judith: So I couldn't I couldn't go on with that, but I could somehow tell myself, okay, I'm just going to do what they say for seven years and then I'll do what I want to do.
10:16
Judith: And I, so that was the curiosity.
10:17
Judith: I think I was willing, uh, slightly, slightly willing, and I was only willing because I was scared.
10:24
Judith: Right.
10:24
Judith: And I was scared because my life was so bad.
10:27
Brenda: Yeah.
10:28
Judith: But so for some reason I, I didn't want to be.
10:31
Judith: at all clean forever.
10:33
Judith: I do remember seven years came and I, uh, my life was about 10 zillion times better than it had been and it did cross my mind, but I wasn't willing then to, To give up what I had gained, even though it was hard seven years and it's still hard.
10:51
Judith: It's been 38 and a half years now.
10:54
Brenda: Wow.
10:55
Brenda: That is so incredible.
10:57
Brenda: I, we could spend about three hours just diving into just what you've said so far.
11:02
Brenda: And there's so much more I want to get to.
11:03
Brenda: So I will restrain myself.
11:06
Brenda: First of all, I'd love to know, how did you get into treatment because it, Sounds like things were pretty bad.
11:12
Brenda: If you're homeless, you have hep C, like things are not going well.
11:17
Brenda: You said you were pissed, but also a little curious.
11:19
Brenda: Could you talk a little bit about how did you actually walk through the door?
11:24
Brenda: Like what was the impetus for that?
11:26
Judith: That is still a bit of a mystery to me.
11:30
Judith: It was not what I would have, or anybody would have thought I would do.
11:35
Judith: I was a belligerent person since I was two probably, and I'm still a little bit that way.
11:42
Judith: I think I, I like an argument and I, Yeah, I'm not passive, which also serves me well as a scientist and as a professor now.
11:52
Judith: Yeah.
11:53
Judith: My parents were early in the tough love thing.
11:56
Judith: I was the oldest.
11:58
Judith: I broke their hearts, I think.
12:00
Judith: My father did not, he still does not do really well with ambiguity.
12:06
Judith: So he just decided he didn't have a daughter.
12:08
Judith: He, it was easier, I think, emotionally.
12:12
Judith: And he would even tell people, I have two sons.
12:15
Judith: And then for some reason he doesn't know and I don't know and we still marvel at it.
12:20
Judith: He's uh, 86 or something now.
12:23
Judith: He invited me out for dinner and I thought I deserved a nice dinner too.
12:30
Judith: I was full of all the things I deserved.
12:32
Judith: My rough life and I was a mess, but my mother had been researching treatment centers for a long time Even though they they kind of um, they cut me off in a way That's how I ended up on the streets, but I think that it wasn't the days of fentanyl Let me say so I did I hit bottom mostly with cocaine I went because I thought I needed a break and things weren't going well.
12:58
Judith: I did not think that they were not going well because of my drug use.
13:01
Judith: Of course, like all of us, I thought that drug use was the solution, not the problem.
13:06
Judith: But they both took me from Florida, South Florida to Minnesota and dropped me off.
13:14
Judith: So I was duped by my own stupidity and Arrogance, in a way, and and the amazing thing that dropped me off, and I, I thought of leaving this 30 day treatment center.
13:28
Judith: It was the middle of nowhere in Minnesota, I didn't have any idea.
13:32
Judith: exactly what to do.
13:33
Judith: I probably would have figured it out pretty quick, but and then I stayed for a while after that, and that's when I got this backdoor idea that I'm just going to fix it.
13:44
Judith: And I knew, when I knew anything, I knew there was something different about me.
13:49
Judith: I really loved every drug I tried from the second I tried it.
13:55
Judith: I just, and I, and I loved it with such abandon that everything else faded.
14:02
Judith: There is this, uh, neurobiology related to that, that the, the taste of this possibility is just so compelling that there really was nothing in comparison.
14:14
Judith: So I thought, well, I'm going to figure out what that's, where that comes from and, uh, turn the switch or something, and then I'll just be able to.
14:24
Judith: Do it.
14:25
Judith: other people do who don't self destruct.
14:27
Brenda: Interesting.
14:29
Judith: Yeah, even though it's amazing, I, I like this part of the story because I, I should say I'm, I'm not that smart and I had terrible record.
14:38
Judith: If anybody looked at me, they would say, she's not good material for a PhD.
14:42
Judith: But I did have what we all so have, which is persistence and a willingness to take risks, a willingness to, uh, go out on a limb.
14:54
Judith: I, I bottomless curiosity.
14:56
Judith: I think in a way the tendency to take drugs to get to the edges of ourselves is related to neuroscience or any kind of science or exploration.
15:08
Judith: So I converted on this like seven year basis.
15:13
Judith: I thought my tendencies in that direction.
15:18
Judith: And science was interesting, not as interesting as, running from the police and stuff, but, but pretty good.
15:23
Judith: And, uh, I was also amazed that there was other things to do with my life that were fun, like travel or climb mountains or Do science or get married or those kind of things.
15:38
Brenda: I would love to like dissect those years where you transition from being in a treatment program to like, I'm going to get a PhD in neuroscience because that seems like a really good idea.
15:49
Judith: It wasn't many years, actually.
15:51
Judith: It was really early.
15:52
Judith: I just, and, and the thing is, Nope.
15:55
Judith: Who would think I could do it?
15:56
Judith: Right.
15:56
Judith: And I didn't think I could.
15:58
Judith: So who knows?
15:59
Judith: I think it is just persistence.
16:02
Brenda: What I said with my son and what, what I hear from all the folks that I work with is, if only my kid could channel, All of these incredible talents and traits that they have in a positive direction, they would change the world, which obviously you did, and you figured that out, and it is that persistence and the risk taking and the curiosity, that bottomless, like, I am going to go dive into this so deep, I won't even be able to find my way back out.
16:33
Judith: Right.
16:34
Brenda: So, if only we had the magic switch for how to do that, how to make that shift.
16:39
Brenda: And I think it just takes time, but maybe you have discovered something in your research could give us clues to that.
16:47
Brenda: And also, I know you've done a lot of work in the roots.
16:50
Brenda: Like, were you curious going, what at 12 years old made me so love this experience?
17:00
Judith: Yes.
17:00
Judith: So, uh, those are, that's a lot of questions.
17:03
Judith: I, I want to touch back though on the first one because I think it not only is important for individuals.
17:12
Judith: getting clean to find a kind of a thrilling path that is to their best selves, their most flourishing self.
17:21
Judith: But it's really critical for the rest of us.
17:25
Judith: This is a lot of glorious capital.
17:28
Judith: In a way, I, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I think there's plenty of people that color between the lines.
17:35
Judith: And we don't really need that many more of them and maybe AI can, I'm being really skeptical now.
17:41
Judith: But I do think it's not myself necessarily, but people like me who are reckless and fully in, to a fault, but also for good.
17:55
Judith: And and.
17:56
Judith: If there was ever a time to have people like me not dying in the street, it's now.
18:03
Judith: I think that what the drugs do is they make our brain, they trick our brain into thinking this is really meaningful.
18:12
Judith: This is so important.
18:15
Judith: You are important, your life is important, the questions you're asking as you're sitting on the couch, smoking, are so important.
18:24
Judith: And that is a trick because it's a dead end, it doesn't go anywhere.
18:29
Judith: But what happened for me, and like most people like me, we start when we're adolescents because that is the time.
18:38
Judith: When we're supposed to be creating and finding our own meaning, really, it was too hard.
18:47
Judith: I, I didn't want to do it.
18:48
Judith: Like I didn't want to get rejected, I didn't want to fail, I didn't want to disappoint my parents, I didn't want to try and not go anywhere, I didn't want to swing the bat and not hit the ball, so when I found drugs, which makes you feel like everything's a home run.
19:06
Judith: Just like that, I thought, perfect, it's a shortcut to meaning.
19:12
Judith: Right.
19:12
Judith: And so I think that one of the things I'm saying, among a few I guess, is that it really doesn't work for young people to say, don't do this, or, this is gonna hurt you.
19:28
Judith: We're, we're reckless by nature, by biology actually, there's genetics of this recklessness.
19:36
Judith: But we do.
19:38
Judith: I did, anyway, really get intrigued by intrigue, and again, drugs are intriguing, the nightlife is intriguing, the, the danger is intriguing.
19:51
Judith: But there are other things like that.
19:53
Judith: And so, instead of saying, don't do this, I think what I want to do with my kids and my students and society is create.
20:05
Judith: and ensure more opportunities for young people to go to the edge of their experience and then a little more without self destructing.
20:17
Judith: Unfortunately, what's most available is not those opportunities for, let's say, art or, music or travel or, extreme sports or philosophy or something.
20:31
Judith: Those are not so available.
20:32
Judith: What's available is a bag of something, right under our nose.
20:38
Brenda: And there's the cool factor of that, I think, especially for like high school students of and I just speak from my experience with my son who was started leaning a little bit more away from sports, which was very okay, to more artistic.
20:54
Brenda: adventures, which was not as cool with his friends.
20:58
Brenda: So, I think there's also so much pressure, especially with social media about what's acceptable to be into and extreme about, uh, versus what's not in the substances clearly are, you just look at like rap culture and how it's so glorified and, and, And all of that.
21:16
Brenda: And so did you get to a point where you were curious and you're just like, Hmm, what, like, what was the root cause of this for me and how am I different than like, am I wired differently than other people?
21:27
Brenda: Like what was going on with that?
21:29
Judith: Yeah, no, that's what I was gonna discover.
21:31
Judith: I thought it would be pretty simple.
21:33
Judith: I, I really thought, and, and many people did, this is in like the late eighties and nineties that there'll be a gene for addiction or maybe a couple of genes missing.
21:44
Judith: There was even, theories about these things, but it turned out to be very, very complicated.
21:49
Judith: I would say today that I think there's probably as many ways to become addicted as there are addicts.
21:59
Judith: And it's a very complex interaction of genetic vulnerability, thousands of genes and having small effects probably each and interacting with each other.
22:13
Judith: And then environmental, Access, which is a big one now because the, access and stress are the two big environmental things.
22:23
Judith: And I should say addiction is rising not because our genes are changing, but because the access and the stress is really through the roof.
22:33
Judith: And then the biggest factor, which I did not know and I didn't even know it when I wrote the book exactly, although there's hints of it there.
22:41
Judith: The biggest thing is early use.
22:44
Judith: So while the brain is developing, and it is seriously undergoing massive reorganization during adolescence, so it's very, very plastic.
22:54
Judith: And in that time, exposure to high potency drugs, especially on a regular, semi regular basis, really changes the structure and therefore the function of the brain for the long term.
23:07
Judith: So one other thing I think that benefited me is ending up in treatment, unwilling at first, but then a little curious at just 23.
23:19
Judith: So because I was younger, it was easier to become addicted, but also much easier, I think, to, to turn things around.
23:38
Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child, worried, sick about their substance use?
23:46
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23:49
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23:56
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24:04
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24:16
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24:29
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24:31
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24:34
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24:42
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24:44
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24:46
Brenda: Let's get back to the conversation.
25:01
Brenda: That is really good to hear that.
25:03
Brenda: Yes, more, the, the younger brain is more susceptible, but also more resilient maybe to like rewiring, and I know you've spent a lot of time studying cannabis and young people.
25:16
Brenda: And that is, I would say from the work that I do, the two things that I hear the most about her high potency THC.
25:22
Brenda: and fentanyl along with all of the, mental health concerns, but from a substance standpoint.
25:29
Brenda: So talk to us a little bit about cannabis and what is going on with these, these young minds.
25:36
Judith: Yeah.
25:36
Judith: Well, you probably, and your listeners probably may have seen this recent research that there's more daily or near daily cannabis users now than alcohol users.
25:49
Judith: So it's really a shifting landscape.
25:51
Judith: And the other thing that shifted a lot since my days when it would wash up on the beach is that it's so much more potent.
25:59
Judith: So anytime you get any drug more potent like fentanyl for opiates or the THC oils and stuff or the, hybrid The strains of today, it's, it's much more dangerous, both in terms of toxicity, but also in terms of addictive liability.
26:19
Judith: Cannabis was my favorite of everything.
26:22
Judith: I liked them all, but if I, I used to say if I had to go to a desert island, I'd only bring one drug.
26:27
Judith: It was definitely going to be a big pail of weed.
26:30
Judith: I think that the reason it's compelling for young people today is important to understand.
26:38
Judith: And every drug activates a core pathway of dopamine to addiction.
26:46
Judith: produce a kind of this sense of, uh, expectancy and hope and interest, like the kind of thing I was talking about, we're supposed to get from our experiences.
26:57
Judith: But each drug also does unique things.
27:01
Judith: And cannabis binds to cannabinoid receptors and those happen to be the most prolific.
27:09
Judith: receptors really in the brain.
27:11
Judith: They're in almost every synapse.
27:14
Judith: Unlike, opioids bind in relatively few.
27:19
Judith: Cocaine, even fewer.
27:21
Judith: So these, uh, cannabinoids are that we produce ourselves can activate every synapse.
27:27
Judith: And when they do that, they tell us which neural signaling that's just happened is especially critical or meaningful.
27:38
Judith: The reason people love weed or people like me liked it is because everything was meaningful.
27:45
Judith: And kids are looking for meaning.
27:47
Judith: So I was like, this is great.
27:49
Judith: I can, I can watch cartoons.
27:51
Judith: I can look at the texture of the carpet.
27:54
Judith: I can eat macaroni and cheese.
27:57
Judith: It's all unbelievably rich and interesting and worthwhile.
28:01
Judith: My own thoughts.
28:02
Judith: I don't need a group, I don't need to find a date.
28:05
Judith: I don't need to go interact with people.
28:06
Judith: I don't need to do sports because that stuff's hard.
28:09
Brenda: Right.
28:09
Judith: This is easy.
28:10
Judith: Everything's meaningful and it's right for me.
28:13
Judith: So I think kids are really sitting ducks for that.
28:17
Judith: But probably the fundamental thing about psychopharmacology, which is the study of drugs in the brain and R.
28:24
Judith: Well, being is that the more we use a drug to produce an effect, like a sense of meaning, the less meaning our brain produces on its own.
28:37
Judith: And so we become tolerant and dependent.
28:40
Judith: So my friends used to say, you chain smoke weed.
28:43
Judith: I did because without it, life was completely.
28:48
Judith: void of anything valuable.
28:52
Judith: So I think that Kids who are trying to create a life of value and meaning find this shortcut.
28:58
Judith: In the meantime, it undermines their ability to detect meaning.
29:04
Judith: I
29:05
Brenda: have never heard anybody describe it that way.
29:07
Brenda: And I'm so, it makes so much sense when you say that it creates meaning out of things like macaroni and cheese, which wouldn't typically have a lot of meaning.
29:18
Brenda: And I, I'm guessing that that is why parents notice like my kid has.
29:23
Brenda: Zero motivation.
29:25
Brenda: It is like the motivation killer and is that because all of a sudden, why would I be motivated to do anything because my macaroni and cheese has so much meaning?
29:35
Judith: Absolutely.
29:36
Judith: I can remember early on, having to do family vacations and stuff.
29:43
Judith: It's like, are you kidding me?
29:46
Judith: No contest.
29:47
Judith: Right?
29:48
Judith: Sitting by myself with a bong.
29:50
Judith: Right.
29:50
Judith: Right.
29:50
Judith: Right.
29:50
Judith: or dealing with a family, holiday.
29:54
Judith: No, one was easy and very entertaining and the other one was just a drag.
30:02
Judith: Yeah.
30:02
Judith: And so, it's interesting because there used to be this big debate.
30:05
Judith: Uh, is it, they called it, uh, amotivational syndrome or being a couch potato.
30:11
Judith: And the, the, the criticism to this was that people who just like to sit on the couch and watch cartoons are those people who are going to want to smoke weed.
30:22
Judith: It was just a correlation in other words.
30:25
Judith: Like, the cigarette companies made this correlational argument for a long time.
30:28
Judith: It's not that cigarettes cause cancer.
30:30
Judith: It's just that people who are prone to cancer also happen to like cigarettes.
30:34
Judith: So anyway, those, those, uh, that debate has been settled clearly.
30:39
Judith: It causes a lack of motivation because everything else pales in comparison and it's harder.
30:46
Judith: It's harder.
30:47
Judith: And the good news is that comes back.
30:50
Judith: So, you can, uh, Be clean.
30:54
Judith: And I sometimes say if you're, if your kid isn't willing to give it up, which is understandable because it does seem dry.
31:02
Judith: It's like going from Technicolor to black and white,
31:05
Brenda: right?
31:05
Judith: Who wants that?
31:06
Judith: Especially if you're 17.
31:08
Brenda: Yeah.
31:08
Judith: But if you can, you What I've told my kids and my other people is, if you can just hold off for a while, you might be able to do that later.
31:18
Judith: Make your own meaning first and then this will be like icing on the cake maybe.
31:22
Judith: It's silly to be anti drug so much.
31:25
Judith: We're just really, uh, I am just so against the robbing of drugs.
31:32
Judith: Lives of meaning that happen with, uh, cannabis use disorder or any other, addictive disorder.
31:41
Brenda: Do kids, do young people experience that tolerance faster or sooner, or is it the same, like an adult would develop a tolerance to alcohol versus a 15 year old smoking weed?
31:55
Brenda: Like what does that look
31:57
Judith: like?
31:58
Judith: Kids have more tolerance, and it, partly because tolerance you could think of as learning.
32:03
Judith: And kids learn everything quicker, whether it's French or an addiction.
32:09
Judith: They pick it up.
32:10
Judith: more quickly because their brain is already in a very dynamic state.
32:15
Judith: Now, our brains are dynamic until the day we die.
32:19
Judith: So there's always possibility for changing.
32:22
Judith: Like I could learn French, maybe, but it would take a lot more now than it would take at 12.
32:28
Judith: Yes.
32:28
Judith: And so it's the same kind of thing.
32:31
Judith: Also the other kind of layer on this is that they're, they're, Biology is primed for meaning at this age.
32:41
Judith: And in psychology fields, we talked about, we, we talk about stages of development.
32:47
Judith: And the stage that adolescents are in, according to Erickson, was this one where they either develop an identity or kind of get confusion about who they are.
33:00
Judith: Well, the way to develop identity, it sounds great, but it's hard in practice, right?
33:04
Judith: You have to I try a lot of trial and error and it's embarrassing and it's, it's just so awkward.
33:12
Judith: So I think that developing an identity requires finding what you care about.
33:18
Judith: If weed is going to make you care just about it because it's so, again, accessible and effective for caring, it does, tells you, hey, I am meaningful, then you don't need other things.
33:36
Brenda: Right.
33:36
Brenda: Can you imagine when you were smoking, if you had had like the waxes and the shadow, like all the stuff now that's 90 percent THC, it's just so frightening to know that the potency is, it's a completely different product.
33:54
Brenda: It's
33:54
Judith: completely different.
33:55
Judith: And as a result, there are more and more people, young people who are hopeless.
34:02
Judith: Because they don't, how do you get hopeless?
34:04
Judith: You have no meaning.
34:05
Brenda: Right.
34:06
Judith: And so they're, and I hear from them, and you hear from them, sure, they, they're sitting, in their parents basement, they're dabbing all day long, it's not really working, they're afraid to go out and I think, oh, that's what I was going to say.
34:21
Judith: The so we now can see, because there's been all these longitudinal studies that, no, they started out highly motivated.
34:29
Judith: And the weed itself undermined their desire to explore and do other things.
34:37
Judith: And in the same way people were saying, people who have mental illness really, might be able to medicate.
34:46
Judith: With THC and, uh, lo and behold, THC causes mental illness, causes it.
34:55
Judith: So it's true, that people who are struggling use more, but it's probably a much stronger in the other direction.
35:04
Judith: I think it's hard in the beginning and, and what is helping is that because it's more potent.
35:13
Judith: If a kid is willing to just consider early on that it might not be working like it was, like when I started smoking, it was the best, the most hilarious, the most fabulous way to spend a day.
35:28
Judith: Afternoon, Tuesday afternoon.
35:30
Judith: But by the end, I needed it to get out of bed more or less.
35:35
Judith: If I had been relying just on THC like it was, I would have kept going.
35:41
Judith: But cocaine brought me down quicker.
35:44
Judith: So in a way that THC that's available today in these very high potency oils and things is potentially a benefit because people might see more quickly.
35:57
Judith: That it's not working.
35:58
Judith: And it's always going to stop working because the brain is always going to adapt to produce the exact opposite state.
36:05
Brenda: Right.
36:06
Brenda: And they, I don't think that's something that they really understand the, that tipping point of It's good.
36:12
Brenda: It's good.
36:13
Brenda: It's good.
36:14
Brenda: Oh, now it's not so good.
36:16
Brenda: Now I'm, now I've tipped over to the other side.
36:19
Brenda: And when that happens,
36:21
Judith: well, it happens beginning the first time.
36:24
Judith: And there is a, a kind of a folk myth, that the first time is the best.
36:30
Judith: And it is the best because the brain hasn't really adapted yet.
36:35
Judith: But it's such a quick study, the brain, we're not gonna, we're not gonna trick it.
36:40
Judith: So the more regularly you use, the less well it works.
36:44
Judith: And that's true, alcoholics, alcohol is a great sedative, but they're anxious.
36:50
Judith: without it.
36:51
Judith: And the same with, with THC.
36:53
Judith: So, they say, kids will say to me, but it helps my anxiety.
36:57
Judith: Yes, but your anxiety is caused by withdrawal from THC.
37:01
Judith: So it's just a loop.
37:03
Judith: It's just a, it's just a net end.
37:05
Judith: You're in the net end.
37:06
Judith: You're in the cul de sac.
37:08
Judith: Yeah.
37:08
Judith: And I've, I've recently talked to many students who were noticing this, I, uh, they say come to college and they're excited to get there and it's a brand new experience.
37:20
Judith: And then, three months in they realize, well, I'm spending most of the time in my dorm room by myself and I'm, Getting more and more anxious and having less and less friends and it's hard because it's hard to get to college and make new friends and change your whole life and fail tests and things like that.
37:37
Judith: So, they realize it and I'll say, well, can you give it?
37:41
Judith: First, I say, can you just give it a week?
37:44
Judith: And then I'll say, well, how about a month and then how about three months?
37:48
Judith: And really three months, no matter how much you're smoking, is enough to really notice
37:54
Brenda: a
37:54
Judith: little bit of meaning coming back.
37:58
Judith: It's tempting and it's hard, but if they can, if they are able to, in a way just hold off and the longer young people can hold off That's what I was saying earlier if I can if you can just wait then The brain, you could start And develop a cannabis use disorder in your 40s, but it's a lot harder than it is when you're 14.
38:23
Brenda: Three months.
38:23
Brenda: That's really good to know about.
38:26
Brenda: And I know there's thousands of parents listening right now and they're like, but what do I do with my 15 year old who will listen to any of this?
38:36
Brenda: Any thoughts on like messages that you've heard that work?
38:41
Brenda: One I'm hearing is, yeah, try a week.
38:44
Brenda: Try two weeks, try, and maybe there's, I don't know, is there like, during those three months, here's some things that we're going to do to try and counteract the meanie, the, the, oh, like.
38:58
Judith: It would have to be, parachuting over the Eiffel Tower or something.
39:01
Judith: I think it's, it's hard because our value system is, is messed up.
39:06
Judith: So I don't think there's a lot.
39:09
Judith: But I do think that if you can.
39:13
Judith: Get away.
39:14
Judith: It's going to be miserable for everybody else with the person because they're withdrawing and so they're especially going to be irritable and discontent and annoyed and, uh, maybe let's say a surfing camp in Maui.
39:31
Judith: I'm throwing things out.
39:32
Judith: This is not available for everybody.
39:33
Judith: It wasn't available for me, but, maybe something totally new, maybe building something.
39:42
Judith: How did people make meaning in their lives a thousand years ago?
39:46
Judith: Well they made families, it's probably too early, but they explored, they took risks, they built things, they created any creative stuff.
39:58
Judith: Now they're not feeling creative 'cause they think we'd helps 'em be creative.
40:01
Judith: But in the same way, weed helps 'em with their anxiety.
40:04
Judith: Their lack of creativity is due to changing.
40:07
Judith: Their brain in a way that it feels like weed is what makes them creative, but they have it in there.
40:13
Judith: And that comes back.
40:15
Judith: I do think, interestingly, one thing that is very potent.
40:20
Judith: And meaningful and risky for young people are groups of young people and an honest communication.
40:30
Judith: So I think if we had more, I would call it group therapy because I don't know what else to call it, but I just mean a facilitator who was getting people to talk about what was really going on.
40:45
Judith: I think that is almost.
40:48
Judith: It may be even more thrilling than running from the cops or something or scoring a big new bag of something.
40:55
Judith: I think that's the kind of danger they're supposed to be exploring, who am I and, and they listening to other people like them, I think that's a very useful, I think group therapy probably more useful than family counseling or individual counseling if you can get them to go.
41:17
Judith: And you know what I said to my own kids is you can, you can always go back to this.
41:21
Judith: It's not like you're, you, if you put it down now, you can't pick it up later.
41:26
Judith: And what sometimes happens is that they realize, wow, life is not as boring and bland as I thought it was.
41:37
Judith: Somehow there are things to do.
41:40
Judith: So it's a kind of a time game.
41:43
Judith: Our youngest was a teenager during the beginning of COVID.
41:47
Judith: And we were like, what are we going to do with this kid?
41:48
Judith: So we all started mountain biking and she was, Ridiculous.
41:53
Judith: And, I remember one day we were on a kind of a bad, rocky trail.
41:57
Judith: She was really going fast.
42:00
Judith: I was okay with it because I'm a little on that side myself.
42:03
Judith: My husband was Having a conniption.
42:05
Judith: He was like, what are you doing?
42:06
Judith: And I was like, just let her go.
42:08
Judith: Well, she couldn't even hear us because she was way ahead.
42:10
Judith: And she went flying off her bike and landed in the dirt, with stuff in her teeth.
42:16
Judith: And stood up and said, that was so fun.
42:21
Judith: Yep.
42:21
Judith: So we got to let them find something.
42:25
Judith: They need risk.
42:26
Judith: They need novelty.
42:28
Judith: They need like something.
42:30
Judith: That, you're not feeding them in bite sized portions that you've already digested.
42:34
Brenda: Right.
42:34
Judith: They need their own way in, I, I think we should all brainstorm more and more ways.
42:42
Judith: I, I have a, a kind of a story about this.
42:45
Judith: I was recently giving a talk and there was a woman there who was in her thirties and she started using Young and she had gotten clean maybe, you Six or seven years earlier, and she had a couple of kids and, she had her little downward spile.
43:00
Judith: And she was really embarrassed because she had been taking flying lessons and spending all of her spare money on flying lessons.
43:10
Judith: And she felt selfish in our family.
43:13
Judith: And she was thinking of buying a used plane.
43:17
Judith: And we didn't know whether to laugh or cry because it's so perfect, right?
43:22
Judith: Yeah.
43:23
Judith: Why, why smoke weed and drink wine when you could be flying an airplane that you, bought yourself?
43:31
Judith: It's so much better.
43:32
Judith: So I think, I don't know what the kids want, but this woman luckily, uh, realized what she really wanted.
43:41
Brenda: I think that is so amazing.
43:44
Brenda: And I think it goes, I think this allowing of the risk and the.
43:49
Brenda: Potential danger just goes against today's parenting style, right?
43:55
Brenda: Of being very protective and making sure that they don't get hurt and We have to be willing to let that go a little bit.
44:05
Brenda: Let them fly over the handlebars.
44:07
Brenda: Yeah, otherwise they find
44:08
Judith: sentinel.
44:09
Brenda: Exactly.
44:10
Judith: Right, so I mean they're gonna get their risk.
44:13
Brenda: Exactly.
44:13
Judith: If they're, if they're really a healthy adolescent.
44:16
Brenda: Yeah.
44:18
Judith: So.
44:18
Brenda: Well, I know I need to let you go.
44:19
Brenda: What's the question that you get asked all the time?
44:23
Brenda: And especially if it's something that's, you would think would be relevant to parents that you would like to clear up just once and for all, for thousands of people in one time, is there a question that you get asked all the time that you're just like, let me just tell you this.
44:40
Judith: Yeah, I, I think this is a hard one to all my lessons are hard one, but I, I feel like for parents, the most important thing, you can't maybe provide roller skating lessons or whatever, but the most important thing is to show up and tell the truth about what's going on with us.
45:02
Judith: I think that I struggled with this a lot with my three teens who are now out of their jeans luckily and doing well.
45:10
Judith: But I wanted to tell them about them and that is like, yeah, completely contraindicated.
45:19
Judith: So what I had to do was show up and tell them about me and how I felt.
45:27
Judith: And not in a dramatic way, because I don't think that works, but just honestly.
45:33
Judith: And I can, I can remember very well.
45:36
Judith: My daughter didn't want to be with me and I didn't really want to be with her.
45:39
Judith: We were not, she was 16 or 17 and she was done.
45:44
Judith: And I got this advice that I'm now sharing.
45:48
Judith: And I told her, okay, well, we're I understand that you don't want to be with me, I didn't say I didn't want to be with you either.
45:54
Judith: But I said, but I don't want you to go in your room and close your door, and I'm not gonna go in my room and close my door, we're gonna sit in the living room together.
46:01
Judith: And she was, huffing and puffing, and this is stupid, oh, the whole thing.
46:06
Judith: And for, days and times and hours, we just sat, and she was on her phone, and I was just sitting.
46:15
Judith: Maybe reading a magazine or something, but eventually even though she still didn't like me She would say, you wouldn't believe what happened today at school mom, or do you think this is funny?
46:26
Judith: And she would show me something.
46:28
Judith: So I think I Still have to do this for myself.
46:32
Judith: I have to force myself to show up and I think that My biggest mistake in a way is that it's so painful sometimes to, to be here now, with this situation that I want to escape, but there is no real escape.
46:55
Judith: It doesn't work.
46:56
Brenda: I love that.
46:58
Brenda: Thank you so much.
46:59
Brenda: This is so enlightening.
47:01
Brenda: I just, I love the conversation and you're, you're wonderful.
47:05
Brenda: Willingness just to be vulnerable and honest and, and inform us of some of the science that's going on in the brain.
47:12
Brenda: Cause I think that is a huge mystery to, to most of us that don't study this and have decades of, science and research and all that behind us.
47:21
Brenda: We're just a little mystified.
47:23
Brenda: So I appreciate all the clearing up for us.
47:27
Judith: Well, thank you for having me.
47:29
Judith: It's been really nice chatting.
47:31
Brenda: Okay, my friend.
47:32
Brenda: If you want the transcript or show notes and resources from this episode, just go to hopestreamcommunity.
47:38
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47:40
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47:46
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47:58
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48:01
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48:05
Brenda: I also want to let you know about a free ebook you can download if you're feeling anxious and confused about how to approach your child's substance abuse.
48:13
Brenda: This book is called Worried Sick, a compassionate guide for parents of teens and young adults misusing drugs and alcohol, and it'll introduce you to ways that you can rebuild connection and relationship with your child versus distance and let them hit rock bottom.
48:29
Brenda: It is a game changer.
48:30
Brenda: It's totally free.
48:31
Brenda: Just go to HopeStreamCommunity.
48:33
Brenda: org forward slash worried to download that.
48:38
Brenda: You're amazing.
48:39
Brenda: You are such a rockstar, a super elite level parent.
48:43
Brenda: It's truly an honor to be here with you.
48:45
Brenda: And please know you are not doing this alone.
48:49
Brenda: You've got this tribe and you will be okay.
48:52
Brenda: You'll make it through this season.
48:54
Brenda: And when you do, you are going to be stronger and more resilient than you ever thought possible.
49:01
Brenda: I'm sending all my love and light and I'll meet you right back here next week.