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Why Your Weekly Ops Meeting Isn’t Actually Operating · The Operator | Healthcare Business

0:01
All right, let's do it.
0:03
All right,
0:03
most healthcare organizations think they
0:06
have a communication problem.
0:08
Larry here thinks they have an information
0:10
problem because the people closest to the
0:12
work, well, they know what's happening.
0:15
Leadership might not just be hearing about
0:17
it.
0:18
In his latest article on the operator,
0:20
Larry brings forth that most healthcare
0:23
huddles have become broadcasts.
0:26
theater or what he calls a metrics huddle,
0:29
where the venue that was supposed to be
0:31
the platform's eyes and ears has become
0:33
just a daily reminder to hit budget.
0:36
And when that happens,
0:38
the platform learns none of it.
0:40
So Larry, let's start there.
0:42
What is a huddle actually supposed to do?
0:47
What is a huddle supposed to do?
0:49
A huddle is absolutely supposed to,
0:54
it's easier, actually,
0:55
let me back up a little bit by
0:57
saying
0:59
Organizations don't really have this sort
1:01
of communication problem.
1:02
As you said,
1:02
they have an information problem.
1:04
I'd like to start out with what is
1:05
the fundamental difference between those
1:07
two.
1:08
A communication problem is when the
1:09
message doesn't get through.
1:11
An information problem is when the message
1:13
that is needed to get through never even
1:16
makes it to the room,
1:17
never even makes it to the thought that
1:19
I should be communicating this.
1:21
We have too much data,
1:23
not enough information.
1:24
We have too much information,
1:25
not enough communication.
1:27
Most healthcare platforms communicate
1:30
constantly.
1:32
Email, Slack, Teams, channels, dashboards,
1:36
monthly all hands, weekly newsletters.
1:39
There's no shortage of talking happening.
1:42
What is missing is the small,
1:44
really what I would say hard,
1:46
specific information that lives on the
1:48
clinical floor.
1:50
The chair that's been broken for eleven
1:52
days,
1:53
the new hygienist who feels like she's
1:54
bothering someone every time she asks,
1:56
the senior clinician who has been quietly
1:59
looking for job postings since February,
2:01
nobody knows that they might be a flight
2:03
risk.
2:04
That information doesn't move through
2:06
email, Slack and channels.
2:07
It moves through trust, through proximity,
2:11
through a venue where it's safe to raise
2:13
what we call psychological safety.
2:14
If the venue does not exist or people
2:17
don't feel safe,
2:18
it sits on the floor and the platform
2:21
obviously doesn't see it.
2:22
So you can have crisp communication
2:25
and zero information they're not the same
2:27
thing and we get in troubles when we
2:29
conflate the two so the huddle is the
2:31
venue specifically not to get to your key
2:33
question the huddle is the venue
2:35
specifically designed to surface that
2:37
information that's its purpose when it
2:40
works you have both communication going
2:42
down information going up when it doesn't
2:45
you have a lot of well-designed slide
2:47
decks and data describing a reality that
2:51
the leadership team fortunately doesn't
2:53
really even see
2:55
In the article you opened with this line,
2:56
I even made a note about it,
2:58
the meeting happened, the huddle did not.
3:01
How can two organizations really run the
3:03
same exact meeting,
3:03
yet one learns something valuable and the
3:06
other learns nothing?
3:09
Yeah, well,
3:09
because the meeting is the visible,
3:11
you know, ten percent,
3:13
the other ninety percent is the system
3:15
around it.
3:17
So two huddles can look identical from
3:19
across the room, same time, same people,
3:22
same checklist, same length.
3:24
The difference is what's happened in
3:26
eighteen months leading up to that point.
3:28
So I've been through huddles.
3:29
I've been to a lot of daily huddles
3:30
when I visit locations,
3:31
whether it be a PT clinic,
3:32
a dental clinic, primary care clinic,
3:34
occupational health, you name it.
3:36
The huddles oftentimes will have that same
3:38
checklist.
3:39
And it is whether or not you're just
3:41
checking the box,
3:42
whether or not you're having meaningful
3:44
conversation.
3:46
In the organization that learned
3:48
something,
3:48
the floor was watched over and over what
3:50
happens when they raise a hard issue.
3:53
So issues get sort of logged,
3:56
owners get signed, but by Wednesday,
3:57
the chaos is either fixed or it's
4:00
replaced.
4:00
By Friday,
4:01
somebody walks to the back of the clinic
4:02
and says, we got this done.
4:04
That's a system that's earned the right
4:07
information from its floor it's actually
4:10
resulted in actions that are measurable
4:12
and held accountable in the organizations
4:15
that learn nothing the floor has watched
4:17
the opposite happen issues get raised
4:19
issues get parked nothing happens by the
4:22
third or fourth time when that happens the
4:24
floor has decided without anybody
4:26
announcing it that the huddle is not the
4:28
right venue to tell you things that are
4:30
really worth telling you they just show up
4:31
and they check the box
4:34
And then they go back to seeing patients.
4:36
So the meeting still happens,
4:38
but the huddle is dead.
4:39
It's just, yeah,
4:39
did we do a huddle today?
4:41
Yeah, in fact, we certainly did.
4:43
But it didn't serve any real purpose.
4:46
And so the difference between those
4:48
organization was not the meeting.
4:49
Both organizations had the meeting.
4:51
The difference are not what surfaced in
4:53
that meeting reliable.
4:55
reliably catches someone who enacts on it
4:57
you know there's a psychological term
4:58
called habituation we get used to things
5:01
we get desensitized to things over time
5:03
that are rote and what you have to
5:05
have is you have to have a meeting
5:07
czar somebody that's frequently like
5:09
what's the purpose here are we really
5:10
surfacing issues that's going on in here
5:13
and maybe that meetings are changes every
5:14
couple months or every quarter or whatever
5:16
but you have to have somebody who keeps
5:18
meeting accountability otherwise it
5:20
becomes rote habituated and accomplishes
5:23
effectively nothing
5:24
Yeah.
5:25
To go back to sort of making sure
5:27
we know your terms,
5:28
most people think a huddle exists to
5:30
communicate information.
5:32
But in the top of the show,
5:33
in the article,
5:34
that feels more like a broadcast or
5:36
performance theater.
5:37
You argue that it exists to gather
5:40
information, uncovering things,
5:42
a place that leadership might not have
5:44
visibility.
5:45
So how would you,
5:47
if someone was starting tomorrow in
5:48
leadership,
5:49
how would you describe to them, hey,
5:50
this is what a huddle is actually supposed
5:53
to do so you know what it needs
5:55
to achieve while you're in it,
5:57
what the goal is?
5:58
Yeah, that's right.
5:59
And again,
5:59
you have to go for what is the
6:00
purpose of the meetings.
6:01
And so there are meetings where you're
6:03
meant to broadcast information and
6:05
headlines and updates,
6:06
those kinds of things.
6:07
But a huddle is not a broadcast.
6:10
It is a sensor.
6:12
So if you really think about it and
6:13
you trace this historically,
6:14
I think it was around the nineteen forties
6:17
that Toyota really,
6:19
really perfected all this.
6:21
And by the way,
6:21
the guy's name really was Toyota.
6:23
It was just spelled a little bit
6:24
differently than I think the car is.
6:26
And he built it as a daily stand
6:28
up on the manufacturing floor designed for
6:32
one problems,
6:33
surface problems that are small and
6:36
fixable when they're cheap.
6:38
Right.
6:39
Health care.
6:40
Imported this practice in the early two
6:42
thousands after the Institute of medicine
6:46
to air is human report.
6:47
That was kind of a famous report and
6:50
HQR formalized it into the team steps
6:54
documented this results from across
6:56
multiple settings, fewer medical errors,
6:58
fewer near misses and fewer adverse
7:00
events.
7:00
So basically we took manufacturing this on
7:03
darn cord where something goes bad.
7:04
We got to fix it right before bigger
7:06
problems happen later.
7:07
We imported into medicine and it was
7:09
effective.
7:11
And it was effective because the mechanism
7:14
was not the meeting.
7:15
The meeting was the upper flow of weak
7:18
signals,
7:18
something we can notice is out of source
7:20
when it's small and weak and closest to
7:23
the problem really reporting it.
7:26
before those signals become events.
7:28
One of the meetings I absolutely hate in
7:29
any organization is when you have an
7:31
operational meeting and those that aren't
7:33
closest to the report are reporting the
7:35
meeting.
7:36
So the way that manifests itself like a
7:37
large physical therapy or healthcare
7:39
organization or dental organization,
7:41
you don't have the local operators,
7:42
regional directors,
7:43
regional business partners,
7:44
whatever you call them,
7:46
And the practice managers in those
7:47
meetings, you have their direct reports.
7:50
So think of the information flow.
7:52
You're having direct reports of direct
7:54
reports trying to relay information.
7:57
And when all that things start to happen,
7:59
it just doesn't work.
8:00
And so that's why you have these huddles
8:02
at the most local level where information
8:05
could flow up.
8:06
You know,
8:06
the tow factory floor and the operating
8:08
room,
8:09
have one thing in common,
8:11
silence is never the absence of any kind
8:14
of issue.
8:15
It's almost always the presence of a
8:17
system that has trained people closest to
8:19
keep quiet.
8:20
You want people closest to speak.
8:23
In the Toyota world,
8:24
they had an on-down cord that they
8:26
actually pulled the cord because they were
8:27
so scared to speak.
8:30
think of that same mechanism,
8:31
but get people to talk and in small
8:33
huddles, if you do in a, you know,
8:36
psychological safety, you know,
8:38
correctly enough and you emphasize it
8:40
becomes cultural, people will speak.
8:42
Yeah.
8:42
Well,
8:43
I think that's one of the strongest ideas
8:44
in the article is that, as you said,
8:46
the people closest to the work actually
8:48
know what's going on.
8:49
They understand why a broken chair
8:51
matters.
8:51
They understand why being down one person
8:54
matters.
8:55
The platform might just never hear about
8:56
it because we're sort of playing that game
8:58
from third grade, telephone.
9:00
By the time it gets transmitted,
9:02
you've lost some meaning.
9:03
So what kinds of problems are frontline
9:06
employees seeing every day that maybe
9:08
through that telephone game that
9:10
leadership might miss?
9:12
Yeah, I like to call them patterns,
9:15
not events.
9:16
So the dashboard,
9:18
back to the KPI and the metrics,
9:20
will tell you that Mrs.
9:21
Jenkins didn't come in.
9:22
It will not tell you that the front
9:24
desk has now had to apologize two or
9:26
three times about the same scheduling
9:28
glitch that took place in the EMR,
9:31
the scheduling system.
9:33
The dashboard will tell you production was
9:35
down four percent in a region.
9:37
or no-show cancellation was up,
9:39
but it will not tell you, for example,
9:41
in a dental world that the hygienist,
9:43
you know, with twelve years of tenure,
9:45
spent her lunch yesterday updating her
9:46
resume and left, right?
9:48
The floor sees things that metrics,
9:52
that precede metrics.
9:53
They're like leading indicators.
9:55
They see the patient coordinator who's one
9:58
bad week away from quitting because we
10:00
keep superimposing and creating more
10:02
responsibilities to the patient
10:04
coordinator.
10:05
They see the chair in the op,
10:07
you know,
10:07
in the op three department area that has
10:09
been broken for eleven days and now
10:11
affecting two clinician schedules because
10:13
nobody's taking the time to get it fixed
10:15
because nobody has escalated it well
10:17
enough.
10:18
They see a new dentist who's really,
10:19
really good,
10:20
but culturally just not fitting in.
10:23
They see supply and ordering and it
10:25
happened.
10:25
This is where I see a lot of
10:26
this stuff happening and all this stuff
10:28
gets mad and everybody then gets mad at
10:30
procurement.
10:31
And procurement's not the problem.
10:32
It's the problem occurring at the front
10:34
and it's never surfaced.
10:37
None of that stuff, Jimmy,
10:38
is on a dashboard.
10:39
And if it is,
10:41
it's six months from now and it manifests
10:42
itself downstream in the form of a
10:44
problem.
10:45
The thing the floor has that no other
10:48
layer in the platform has is the time
10:53
spent next to the work.
10:54
It is right there.
10:55
Six hours a day,
10:56
eight hours a day in the same place,
10:58
watching the same patterns,
10:59
noting the same things going slightly
11:01
wrong.
11:02
And anybody, you know,
11:05
you got to have things go wrong before
11:06
anybody could see it.
11:08
So you can't get that information in the
11:10
room with people who act on it.
11:12
If you're not getting that information,
11:13
you're operating blind.
11:15
So I view those things, again,
11:16
as patterns, not events.
11:20
Well, if the meeting goes well,
11:22
it should be quiet, right?
11:24
No problems.
11:24
But you say that silence is almost never
11:27
the absence of issues.
11:28
It's usually evidence of a system that has
11:30
trained people not to speak,
11:32
to have that psychological, that fear of,
11:35
I don't know if this reaches the threshold
11:37
of being worthy of being brought up in
11:39
a sacred meeting.
11:40
So how's that happen?
11:41
Because I don't think many leaders wake up
11:43
trying to create that type of environment,
11:46
right?
11:46
We always hear from leaders,
11:47
I've got an open door policy.
11:49
So how's it happen?
11:51
Yeah, it's an unintended consequence.
11:52
You're absolutely right.
11:53
It's an unintended consequence.
11:55
Nobody decides to build it,
11:56
it just accretes.
11:58
And I think it happens in sort of
12:00
small moments,
12:01
none of which happen in isolation.
12:04
The first time somebody on the floor
12:05
raises a real issue and gets the, oh,
12:09
let's discuss that offline with no
12:11
follow-up.
12:12
Let's take that offline as a classic one.
12:15
The first time a regional person rolls
12:17
their eyes at a suggestion,
12:19
somebody makes a suggestion,
12:21
the feedback is the eye rolling,
12:23
like you're a little kid.
12:25
The first time an assistant brings up a
12:27
safety concern, somebody says,
12:28
let's not get into that right now.
12:30
Let's just defer.
12:31
We got too much going on.
12:32
That's a bigger issue.
12:33
We need to discuss that separately.
12:35
You know,
12:35
the first time a COO visits a clinic
12:37
and the team is told to clean up
12:40
the room before he or she arrives, right?
12:43
Oh, we know Larry's showing up today,
12:45
so let's make sure everything looks good.
12:46
And you know, those are symptoms.
12:50
Again, single moments.
12:52
Each one of those teaches sort of this
12:54
small lesson.
12:56
But by month three,
12:57
the lessons accumulate into a normalized
12:59
behavior in an operating environment.
13:01
By month six, the rule is invisible,
13:03
internalized,
13:04
and it doesn't get brought up.
13:06
Interesting study done by a lady by the
13:08
name of Amy Edmondson at Harvard.
13:11
She did all this incredible research.
13:13
I had to leave this out of the
13:14
article.
13:15
And she's the one who really termed all
13:17
this, by the way, psychological safety.
13:19
But the catastrophic finding that she came
13:22
up with is that in environments where you
13:24
do not have psychological safety,
13:27
They don't reduce problems.
13:29
They reduce the reporting of problems.
13:31
So think about that.
13:33
It's not the problem.
13:34
It's the source of the problem.
13:36
It's the lack of reporting it,
13:37
how it surfaces.
13:38
And when you have low psychological
13:40
safety,
13:41
you actually decrease the reporting of
13:44
problems.
13:45
What really good leaders have figured out
13:47
is they're problem solvers and they want
13:49
more and more and more reporting problems.
13:52
of problems to happen.
13:53
So you have to have a platform that's
13:54
flying through clouds with instruments off
13:57
when you don't believe there are problems.
13:58
It's not that they're not problems,
14:00
it's not that they're being reported.
14:04
And there's a lot of time pressure and
14:05
all the other kinds of things.
14:06
But the good news is that the same
14:07
dynamic actually works in reverse.
14:10
Five months of visibly acting on every
14:12
issue raised will build a floor's
14:15
willingness to speak.
14:16
It's not the magic,
14:17
it's the patience and the follow through.
14:20
It's just like what they found years ago
14:21
in putting the alert system in a hospital
14:25
bed.
14:26
When they first started doing that,
14:27
they were worried that the alerts would go
14:29
off all the time.
14:30
And you know what?
14:31
They did.
14:32
And each time they went off,
14:33
a nurse would have to come in and
14:35
respond to it.
14:35
But over time,
14:37
when you could preemptively solve problems
14:40
and surface them,
14:41
then the alerts started to get less and
14:44
less frequent, and they served a very,
14:46
very valid purpose.
14:48
So early warning signs and on SCAR,
14:52
all those things are really,
14:53
really beneficial.
14:54
Reward people.
14:56
for reporting yeah yeah this reminds me of
14:58
my dad told me a story he was
14:59
a new york city fireman and after every
15:01
big fire everybody would go get showered
15:03
and come down to the kitchen and they
15:05
would just go in a big circle and
15:06
whether you were the guy who was there
15:08
for thirty years or you're the guy that
15:09
were there for the first thirty days what
15:11
did you see what did you learn why
15:13
did you do it what do you think
15:14
we should do next time and they talked
15:15
it out in public and there being open
15:18
and honest was rewarded because lives run
15:20
a lot absolutely absolutely
15:23
So reading this article,
15:24
I kept thinking it doesn't sound like a
15:25
meeting problem then.
15:26
It sounds like a leadership, right?
15:27
This should be a reflection of leadership.
15:29
So what's the difference between a manager
15:33
who gets information and a leader that
15:36
people are actually willing to tell the
15:37
truth in front of?
15:38
I'm going to guess it's absence of eye
15:40
rolling.
15:41
It's got to be on the list.
15:42
A hundred percent.
15:43
A manager,
15:44
the way I look at it is a
15:45
manager builds the venue,
15:48
but a leader earns the audience, right?
15:52
They are the heart and soul of the
15:54
people side of it.
15:55
The manager side of it is just studying
15:57
the physical environment oftentimes.
16:00
So the venue is necessary,
16:02
but not sufficient.
16:03
You can have a perfectly structured
16:05
huddle, a perfect cadence to the meeting,
16:07
the right people, the right prompt,
16:08
the right cadence.
16:10
run by a leader that nobody on the
16:12
floor trusts and nothing ever real comes
16:15
out of it.
16:16
And the floor will smile,
16:17
there's no concerns and everybody will
16:19
kind of go back to work and it'll
16:20
be a very quick huddle.
16:22
And that's what happens over time if you
16:23
don't do this thing appropriately is to
16:25
become very,
16:26
very short while nothing goes on.
16:28
Let's just,
16:28
you get positive reinforcement to end
16:32
meetings way too quickly.
16:33
But what earns trust is actually
16:37
mechanical and somewhat unglamorous.
16:40
It's the leader who gets the truth from
16:41
the floor with the same set of habits
16:44
every time.
16:45
They show up consistently.
16:47
They listen without interrupting.
16:49
They are genuinely curious.
16:51
When something hard surfaces,
16:53
they're adult and they want to embrace
16:56
them.
16:56
They don't get reactive.
16:57
They don't get defensive.
16:58
They react with curiosity.
17:01
They don't shoot the messenger.
17:02
When they are wrong, they say so publicly.
17:05
I was wrong.
17:05
I should have listened to you.
17:06
If I would have just held on,
17:07
if I would have had a little more
17:08
patience, I would have listened.
17:10
This problem would never become a problem.
17:13
that's what good leaders do and they also
17:15
explain it none of this by the way
17:17
is exotic right all this is uh all
17:20
this is hard because the gravitational
17:22
pull on a busy leader is to multitask
17:26
it's to dismiss inconvenient information
17:29
it's to defend it's to over compromise
17:31
it's to try to be more efficient rather
17:33
than to be effective but the leader who
17:36
resists all of those instincts over and
17:38
over in small moments
17:41
accidentally builds an organization,
17:44
which the truth reliably travels up.
17:47
And overall they do truly have less
17:49
problems.
17:51
The manager who follows the playbook gets
17:53
it right in the venue,
17:54
but gets no information.
17:55
The leader that builds the relationship
17:58
gets the information,
17:59
whether or not the venue is perfect.
18:00
The leader is the relationship manager.
18:04
If you want to know whether you're,
18:05
you're one or the other,
18:07
You really want to know what the litmus
18:08
test is?
18:09
Look at what's being raised to you.
18:11
If it's all good news,
18:12
polite questions and well-formulated
18:15
updates, you're managing a venue.
18:17
You're not leading anybody willing to risk
18:20
telling you the hard thing.
18:22
What I tell folks all the time is
18:24
a good leader,
18:25
and I would say this to a friend,
18:27
a good friend is somebody who's willing to
18:29
risk their friendship to tell you what
18:32
they need to.
18:32
And that takes a lot of trust and
18:34
a lot of psychological safety.
18:35
Yeah.
18:36
You were sort of preempting my next
18:37
question,
18:37
which was going to be if someone's a
18:38
CEO and they think their organization
18:40
communicates well,
18:42
what are the signs that they're actually
18:43
operating with a false picture?
18:45
One of them right there would be you're
18:46
not just getting smiles and nods.
18:48
You're not just getting good news.
18:49
People are telling you different things.
18:51
Are there other things that would sort of
18:54
let you know that you are actually
18:56
operating with a good organization and
18:58
good leadership?
19:00
Yeah, I would say there's, you know,
19:01
I can think of a handful.
19:03
One, you've not been,
19:04
if you've not genuinely been surprised by
19:06
anything until say the last ninety days,
19:09
You know, I mean, really surprised.
19:11
You're probably not seeing it.
19:13
Number two,
19:13
no bad news ever reaches you first.
19:16
Right.
19:17
Like by the time you hear a problem,
19:18
it's already been resolved by someone
19:20
below or it's metastasized into a crisis.
19:23
The middle window.
19:24
Here's the thing that is going wrong.
19:25
We have time to fix it.
19:26
We need your help.
19:28
Has gone missing from your inbox.
19:31
Additionally,
19:32
I think your one-to-ones with your folks
19:34
are all upbeat.
19:36
There never is any, you know,
19:38
what I call creative abrasion,
19:40
anything going on there that you're in
19:41
disagreement about.
19:42
And you can't have that.
19:45
If it's only good news and the only
19:46
people reporting to you because they know
19:48
you only want to hear good news or
19:49
they're in fear of you,
19:51
that is a telltale sign,
19:52
as you alluded to.
19:53
And then, you know,
19:54
I think when you visit a place,
19:56
you know,
19:57
You know,
19:58
if everything is looking perfect and it
19:59
was all brushed up for the regional
20:01
leader, the manager, everybody's smiling,
20:04
everybody's putting on a show for the
20:06
management.
20:07
That's not a good thing.
20:08
And then maybe lastly,
20:11
the CFO is a different operating structure
20:13
than your COO.
20:14
And neither one of them has a picture
20:16
that matches your like chief marketing
20:17
officer or something like that.
20:19
So when the three folks sit in a
20:21
room and describe the same platform,
20:23
the description should be dramatically
20:25
different.
20:26
That's not normal.
20:27
This is the platform's nervous system
20:30
disagreeing with itself.
20:32
So the CMO has heard one story,
20:33
the CFO has heard another.
20:35
And if all these things are going on
20:37
disparately, you've got a problem.
20:40
And so it's time for you to get
20:42
out and walk the floor yourself.
20:43
So it's the inconsistency in your C-suite
20:46
reporting things to you.
20:47
That's not a good, that's a telltale sign.
20:52
So for the big finish,
20:52
if you walked into a healthcare
20:54
organization,
20:55
doesn't really matter what they provide.
20:57
and could observe only one thing to
20:59
determine whether it's healthy or
21:01
unhealthy, would you watch the financials,
21:03
culture, outcomes, or watch the huddle?
21:05
And which would you watch and why?
21:07
It's not even close.
21:08
I'd watch the huddle.
21:09
The financials are a trailing metric.
21:11
By the time they show distress,
21:14
things are already structural and down the
21:16
road by six months.
21:19
Those are the outcomes, right?
21:21
Quality metrics run on annual cycles or
21:24
quarterly cycles.
21:25
So definitely the huddle.
21:26
The huddle is happening now.
21:27
It's happening today.
21:29
Honestly, in ninety seconds,
21:31
you can tell whether information moves out
21:33
or whether it doesn't.
21:34
I once listened to a marriage expert,
21:36
Gottman, I think his name is.
21:37
been published more than anybody else
21:39
saying he could tell whether the first X
21:40
number of seconds,
21:41
whether a marriage is going to have a
21:43
have a high rate of divorce or not.
21:45
Well,
21:45
how do they tell that a marriage when
21:47
they're talking to one another?
21:49
How are they?
21:49
How are they respecting?
21:50
What are they saying to each other?
21:51
Are they looking themselves in the eye?
21:53
What is the trust that's going on?
21:55
So really,
21:56
the huddle is that nervous system on
21:58
display.
21:58
I'd rather watch one of them.
22:00
for ninety seconds than read a whole board
22:03
deck of PowerPoints.
22:06
When I visit clinics,
22:07
I usually ask to participate in their
22:09
morning huddle or to be able to observe
22:11
their morning huddle in an unambiguous
22:14
way.
22:14
I break the ice at the beginning and
22:16
then they know I'm not going to lead
22:18
it.
22:18
I just want to watch.
22:20
And that will tell you from two years
22:21
hence what's what's actually going to
22:23
happen.
22:24
Most leaders think they have a
22:25
communication problem.
22:26
And as you've figured out from listening
22:27
to this, many have an information problem.
22:30
The question probably isn't,
22:31
are people talking?
22:32
The question is,
22:33
are leaders hearing what they need to
22:35
hear?
22:35
If today's conversation made you rethink
22:38
how information moves and make you
22:39
uncomfortable, good.
22:41
That's the point.
22:42
And you'll love the deep dive in the
22:43
article with it's available in the show
22:45
notes.
22:45
Subscribe on Substack using the link in
22:49
the show notes attached here.
22:50
Subscribe to the podcast and we'll see you
22:52
next time.
22:53
Larry, thanks.
22:54
Awesome.
22:55
Thank you, Jimmy.