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Have Your Kids Googled You Yet? · Not Right Now

• 0:00
  I tell 'em all the time, I'm like, "Guys, look, I love technology. It's great. I would also throw my phone in the fucking ocean and go back in a heartbeat." Exactly. The internet has done incredible- Yeah...
• 0:08
  things for the world, and ruined everything. [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this. We'll be talking about/crashing out over topics like...
• 0:24
  Lost Chromebook chargers, and lost democracy... crying over spilled milk, and also, are we drinking dairy anymore? It's not an advice show.
• 0:32
  It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.
• 0:43
  You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes, or at our website, notrightnow.show.
• 0:50
  Uh, and if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it, or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet, and then drop us a nice little five-star review.
• 0:58
  And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to questions@notrightnow.show. [upbeat music] Hey, it's Quinn. Claire and I have a guest today on Not Right Now.
• 1:14
  I did not know this gentleman prior to when we recorded, so super excited to have gotten to know him. I recorded this intro later. It's a whole fucking thing. Anyways, our guest today is AJ D'Orazio.
• 1:26
  AJ's a dad, and I'm gonna read a little bit about his show, his cathartic output called The Small Bow. Here's from his About page.
• 1:36
  "In 2016, AJ D'Orazio completed a stint at a Florida rehab facility and left feeling severely depressed. He typed into Google, 'I'm 50 days sober and I want to run into traffic.'
• 1:47
  What came up were ads for rehab programs, the suicide hotline, and an AP story about Demi Lovato." Again, 2016. And that's when he started thinking about what would eventually become The Small Bow, which is a community.
• 1:59
  It is posts, as they say here, "spare, elegant, witty essays about the stuff at the heart of substance abuse, the search for meaning, grappling with fear, longing for joy and connection," which they have really built up here in a very vulnerable, outright way, and I really love this conversation.
• 2:14
  We're gonna learn from it, 'cause y- coping is fucking hard. It's one of the first things we talked about. So, hope you enjoy this convo with AJ. [upbeat music] AJ, meet Quinn.
• 2:24
  Quinn is one of the, my online guy friends that I've been collecting for some reason across the decades. And you guys both have very similar lives in that you had kids all at the same time. Quinn used to live in LA.
• 2:36
  You guys both are married to strong, funny female screenwriters, and you're both from the East Coast. Beards and hats. Mm-hmm. Yeah, beards and hats, and uh- I didn't wear my hoodie today, thank God. Yeah.
• 2:48
  But welcome to podcast life, AJ. How is podcasting treating you lately? How, what have you been learning on the fly? What's been working? Do you regret it yet? No.
• 2:55
  I mean, I, I'm in episode maybe 65, 66, but I think in terms of the on-camera stuff, and it's in the studio. There are six cameras, and it's g- we've got a mission control, and people doing stuff.
• 3:11
  And I thought that, you know, interviewing people in person and then being on camera would just... I, I didn't think I'd ever get used to it.
• 3:19
  But it took two episodes, and now I don't care at all, and I prefer in-person interviews. Mm. It didn't change the dynamic as, as much as I thought it would, and I, I think there's more to it. I'm addicted to it.
• 3:32
  I will never be able to afford it again if this ne- second season gets, doesn't get picked up, so I'm trying to enjoy it as I have it.
• 3:38
  Well, you have a lot of big, some big name guests, and I'm curious about whether you're doing the booking yourself or who is, who is doing that for you? Tell us. I'm doing the booking myself. Yeah. Okay.
• 3:46
  I just became kinda like, like E List famous, I would say, just enough to where, you know, I was broken in a public spectacle to where people kind of just like gravitated toward me. Mm.
• 3:57
  And, you know, I became friends with a lot of people who experienced similar stuff. I think, I mean, and I think there's a lot of space for that in the world, but like how do you... Are you doing...
• 4:07
  So Quinn, as you can tell, and I don't have a, um, really rigorous method for preparing for the interviews or in any way. No, I could tell by, I could tell by your headwear, you know. Yes. Oh, yeah.
• 4:17
  Just like, I mean- This is like the last, like, pair from this pairing. I didn't know if that was like a bit for like the mom thing, right? No. Actually, AJ- We've lived the bit...
• 4:25
  and you should know- It is, it's very meta, the whole thing. Yeah. You know, Emily Gould would know this. Right. But young people are wearing like these kind of headphones these days, so I'm actually ahead of things.
• 4:35
  You know? It's come back around. I bet your daughters, your daughters would be impressed by me, and probably be like- Uh, maybe... "Cool lady." But yeah, talk about what you, like how much you're preparing for them.
• 4:43
  Are they giving you green lights on what you can touch on with them? 'Cause talking about recovery is sensitive stuff. Yeah. It's funny 'cause I guess it was like six months ago, Ozzy is my oldest, and you know, he was,
• 4:56
  he was eight, and he just asked randomly, "When can I be an alcoholic?" Oh. And you know, I was just like, "Well, you're in luck." Yeah. Um, but- Right. You already are. You just haven't tried yet...
• 5:10
  there is, some people suggest that this gets passed down. Uh-huh. But I was a little taken back by it. That wasn't the question I was prepared, preparing myself for, right? Mm.
• 5:19
  But the reason he knows what that word is because he knows I go to meetings, and he knows, you know, when I go to meetings, and when I have meetings, so, so he's used to that.
• 5:29
  A- and I made the decision that, you know, this year will be my 10 years, 10 years of sobriety in July. Congrats. And- That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you.
• 5:38
  And I'm going to bring them and my wife to like the little birthday celebration, which had you... In my first few years in recovery when I saw people do that, I was embarrassed on their behalf.
• 5:50
  I was just like, how can you expose your kids to this? 'Cause now they'll be poisoned and think about this the whole entire time.
• 5:55
  You're basically kind of letting them into a world which kind of absolutely predisposes them to addiction in a way. That's scary, and I don't wanna have that conversation.
• 6:03
  But you know, I changed it mostly because it's like, okay, I need to show them somePerseverance and ability to change and ability to get through bad things.
• 6:13
  That's my hope in exposing them to that as early as I possibly can. But, I mean, who knows? I mean, I am scared of them becoming teenagers, for sure. And my oldest is kind of acting in that way a little bit already.
• 6:31
  You know, I can j- I can just tell what he's been exposed to at school so far, and I can tell, you know, who are the kids with Apple Watches and who are the kids- Mm-hmm... who are not, right? Mm-hmm.
• 6:41
  And I'm like, "Oh, man, I feel very..." I f- I feel more nervous about the internet conversation than I do the alcoholism conversation. Well, the inter- I mean, alcohol is very cut, kinda cut and dry. There's no- Yeah...
• 6:53
  you're never introduced to alcohol for like- It's a pretty known entity... you're not doing your homework. You have to have a beer while you do your homework. And you're not- Right...
• 6:58
  like, you know, you don't have to go to the liquor store in order to access your medical records. So there's very... I mean, not yet. But I don't know where you guys are with screens and stuff.
• 7:06
  The slide is so slippery, and no matter how high your horse is, 'cause our older one got a...
• 7:12
  He has a laptop and he has an Apple Watch, and we have come so far from a, "We'll never let him sleep with the device in his room. We're gonna check all the messages. We're gonna check everything."
• 7:21
  And I can't even explain, like, how easy it is to just let it go, but you just can't control. If you're gonna control all of that, you have nothing else you can take care of, I don't think.
• 7:27
  Well, it's one more thing for the fucking parents to do. It's crazy. I'm not gonna go on my tirade of, like, how this has been completely put on us on purpose, but that's exactly what they're...
• 7:36
  Th- that's the whole point, is they're just like, they're gonna give up. They fucking give up on everything. Who is the they in this? Is it, like, Apple? Are we blaming Tim Cook here?
• 7:44
  Or, uh- It's, it's fucking all of them. Yeah. I mean, clearly- All of them... Tim Cook has bent a fucking knee at this point. But yeah. Well, you finally got rid of him, Quinn. Good for you. Yeah, you're right.
• 7:50
  Good on you. There you go. But, I mean, on the other hand, you know, like, AJ, I've known you for over 20 years online. AJ used to have a alternate personality that he used to write experimental poetry and send it to me.
• 8:04
  Like, this is back in the days when we had day jobs and nothing to do except have a good time online. That was, that was, that was my, that was my attempt at wooing. Yeah.
• 8:12
  Was basically writing, you know, quasi, like, ironically racist poetry to Clare and sending it to her. K- it was, like, dirty and abstract at the same time. I still have it in my old- Yes... my old Hotmail.
• 8:22
  Anyway, one thing I was thinking about AJ that's kind of ironic is that two of your baseline career moves in your life were working, were Deadspin doing sports and also Object, right, gambling for Gawker.
• 8:34
  And I don't know about you, I am really scared about the kids, the boys, and sports betting, actually. Like, and I don't know, do, does that come up very much in the recovery meetings that...
• 8:42
  I know we're going all over the place, but they really all do connect. It's fine. Does it come up in recovery meetings?
• 8:47
  No, but where it does come up with Ozzy, because he watches sports so much, and there are DraftKings- And it's-... commercials every, like, third commercial, right? Every. And he just thinks it's so normal.
• 8:59
  It's also in-game. And he asked me... Yeah. And I mean, it's, he asked me, you know, if I bet, if I gamble. He kinda knows it's a little illicit.
• 9:06
  But my prediction is it's going to be outlawed again probably [laughs] in five years, I think. Really? I hope so. Yeah. Yeah.
• 9:13
  I mean, I think there's gonna be some people that step in, and especially just, like, some of the, you know, the owners of, like, various sports teams and the commissioners are gonna see that, like, this is actually damaging to the game- Mm...
• 9:26
  in a lot of ways, and there are players th- getting busted, and it's a lot easier. There's gonna be a lot more, you know, schemes that happen.
• 9:34
  I mean, there's already been players that are throwing games and shaving points and things like that, and it's very easy to do now. Yeah, there used to actually at least be friction to it, you know? There was.
• 9:42
  I was at ESPN when you were at Deadspin, and- You, you had to kinda, you had to, like, you know, rope in the mafia and things like that. Yeah. And now you don't. Yeah. Yeah.
• 9:48
  Now you can just get somebody's cousin to kind of sit there and say, "Okay, here's the spread. You know, you should be injured for this game." Mm-hmm. Yeah. Quinn, I forget that you were at ESPN.
• 9:58
  I forget that you also had that background. Um- A thousand years ago.
• 10:01
  And, you know, I remember our holy war with the NFL where, well, not even, actually really wasn't with the NFL for once, even though they now own part of each other, which is fucking incredible.
• 10:11
  It was, w- there was a case going towards the Supreme Court to decide whether fantasy sports, which was my job, was skill or luck. Yeah. And we were like, "This is gonna change everything."
• 10:21
  The idea that gambling would ever leave the physical geographic location of Jersey and Vegas wasn't even- Yeah... on our fucking radar. That's right. You know? That's right.
• 10:31
  And now you're just like, "Oh, it's not great." It's, it is a fucking disaster. I mean, I, you know, my son has his first fantasy baseball team, and it's great that he's terrible at it.
• 10:44
  [laughs] Like, he's really frustrated by the whole entire thing, so, which I think is good. Mm.
• 10:48
  'Cause I think if he was good at it, then I know he's very monomaniacal about some things, and I know that kind of just he fixates the same way I do.
• 10:57
  I can tell, you know, he's probably gonna have a little bit of issues in certain things in his areas of life.
• 11:04
  But, you know, I also know how he sees me watch sports and how he sees me interact with sports in a way that I never knew was potentially influencing as much as him.
• 11:18
  But, you know, then once, you know, my, my children
• 11:23
  repeat phrases just like, you know, "Goddammit" and "Jesus Christ," and it's basically because of anytime I watch sports, I'm like, "Oh, this, all of this stuff is basically leaving some sort of imprint on them in a way that I never really [laughs] assumed would be the case at this point."
• 11:39
  Oh, yeah. That's really charming, though. But also, the, the thing with, I mean, not to wildly generalize, but I will.
• 11:46
  Uh, like, it's funny to see little kids do the man thing where, you know how guys are on, like, sports talk radio, and they think they know everything and have all the insight- Yeah...
• 11:54
  and all the judgment, and it la- lasts forever. It reminded me of, like, a couple years ago when James, I think, and his friends were, like, eight.
• 12:01
  They were talking about how overrated Patrick Mahomes is, and I, I think he had just won, like, his second Super Bowl maybe. And I- Sure, yeah...
• 12:09
  was like, "You guys can't even fucking tie your shoes, and you are, like, you don't even know what it is to be rated, let alone overrated." But just, like, the, the bullshittery. Yeah.
• 12:17
  And, like, the kids always-And it's kind of cute in a weird way, even though it's- Yeah... I don't know.
• 12:22
  It reminded me, my dad just the other night, the White Sox lost, I think, in extra innings by one after being up six to nothing, and my dad, who's 78, was like, "I don't even care anymore. I don't even care.
• 12:33
  I just can't believe they lost." And it wa- and it was just very- Yeah... childlike and, and charming at the same time. Yeah. Did I...
• 12:39
  M- our version of that, I'm glad I stopped screaming at the screen like I used to, 'cause I'm too tired and don't give a shit anymore. Yeah.
• 12:46
  Also, my team was the Redskins, and there was enough Dan Snyder that I was finally like, "You know what? I'm just out." So that was actually- Okay... really helpful.
• 12:53
  But my version of the overrated thing, Claire, I might have told you this story, how recently my 13-year-old, sometime in the past year... Oh, you know what it was? It was at Christmas.
• 13:01
  The Mariah Carey song comes on, right? And it's playing. Objectively great song as they run into the ground, of course this and that, all the gems. It, it ends and he goes, "Man, can't believe she was a one hit wonder."
• 13:11
  And I was like, "Excuse me? You don't ha- someone taught you that phrase. Right. You're trying it out, and she has more number one songs than the fucking Beatles, but you're an idiot, and you're just- According to him...
• 13:25
  throwing this out there. Yeah. According to you, and just, God, if I'm not a big fan with kids of the rule if this, then what else. Right. I'm like, what else do you firmly believe that's- Yes...
• 13:33
  completely fucking wrong? That's amazing.
• 13:35
  AJ, I wanna go back to Ozzy though too, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but I realized this with my, with our kid with ADHD, and Quinn, I don't know if your kids are like this too, but it never occurred to me how sports and neurodiversity can really go hand in hand in terms of...
• 13:48
  I think I've seen Instagrams even about how the best b- baseball players have had to be like a little bit autistic in terms of like the things that you care about and the things that you notice.
• 13:57
  And, um, and James- Baseball is literally a sport for autistic pe- like it- Yeah... is the most ridiculous sport. He has li- there's lists and stats like all over the house.
• 14:07
  It's like the GIF from Always Sunny in Philadelphia. He's making these like maps and things like that, and he kinda acts like I'm an idiot. I'll be like, "What are you doing?" He's, "I'm making a lineup."
• 14:16
  You know, we're not playing- Yeah... a game or anything like that. Right. But yeah, I'm hoping- He hasn't eaten in three days, but he's making a lineup. Yeah. If he can get paid for this somehow, that will be- Yeah...
• 14:24
  you know. No, I've got so many lineups on my notes app that are basically put there. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny the things that he loves playing baseball and he loves baseball, the sport, in a way
• 14:39
  where he, I mean, he's a stat guy. I mean, he knows basically every single lineup. I, I let him play MLB The Show, right? Man, that's all day.
• 14:46
  Oh, my guy, I saw a commercial for that recently, and they were like, "Excuse me, what the fuck is that? Can we have that?" And I was like, "No, 'cause once you let it in, guys, that's it." I, this is the only game.
• 14:56
  I won't let him have first person shooter games or anything except baseball, but I mean, here's my, here's why. Okay. Because, and I said this to my wife 'cause she was basically anti PlayStation.
• 15:07
  I said that here's the thing, he's going to really love sports and love players in a way because he starts playing this.
• 15:15
  'Cause then, you know, once he sees kind of like video game characters in real life and he understands exactly that you can actually play this, he's gonna be super into it. And I was right, God damn it.
• 15:26
  Yeah, no, you are right. But she also threatened to- And it is like the choosing the evil, right? It's either that or actual gambling and drugs, basically, at this point. That's, a- and the thing that I
• 15:35
  absolutely, you know, love about him in terms of just what his personality is, he absolutely is learning empathy in a way- Wow... about players that I think is actually something that'll be useful to him.
• 15:50
  I mean, he's, he goes to the other side too. I mean, he really lays into people in terms of... He was very happy Rob Thompson got fired, and I'm like, "Come on, man, he's a nice guy."
• 15:58
  And I'm like, but he's also, you know, starting when the Phillies lost to the Dodgers last year, I gave him the option to basically be a Dodgers fan. I'm like, "Look, this is a great time to be those guys' fans."
• 16:08
  But- Yeah... he's adopted the Phillies, and when they lost in the playoffs last year, I was filming it thinking that something good was gonna happen, and it didn't. Well. Yeah. How's he hand- Oh, man...
• 16:18
  how's he handling this year? Well, not well. But I mean- Well... you know, there was a point last week and I- he was just like, like tearing up, and he says, "I don't think they'll ever win again."
• 16:29
  And I'm like, "Maybe, but this is what it means to be a fan." Yeah. You have ups, you have downs. This is what happens. But he was inconsolable- You throw $400 million down the drain...
• 16:36
  and just like really, really full on tears and screaming, and I'm like filming this, and I didn't mean to. And then he saw me filming him, and I mean, he was like- Oh... like Sean Penn in the '80s with paparazzi.
• 16:48
  Get the fuck out. I mean, but I, and I felt terrible about it. But, you know, the thing that is there is just like, all right, you know, he cares about something that's not TikTok, YouTube. Mm-hmm. Like a lot of things.
• 17:01
  Yeah. You know, I talk to, I talk to a lot of other parents at school, and just they're not into anything except the garbage that I feel like I'm fearful of. Mm-hmm.
• 17:10
  So I, I feel very fortunate that he's into kind of stuff that I'm into.
• 17:13
  No, Claire and I talk about this all the time, which is you have to offer an alternative, and at some point you were like, "Oh, I know this is, well, quote unquote addicting."
• 17:20
  But again, the rest of that shit is so- Yeah... not real. Great. If they're into actual real people on the field, great. Yeah, exactly.
• 17:28
  And, and I'm being very strategic about this, I will, I will say, because I mean, I... And, and, you know, Claire, I don't know if you feel like the same way.
• 17:36
  I feel like the internet that I've been kind of, you know, grown up in it a little bit and seeing kind of just, you know, the harm in it, at least in terms of just like how it's shaped my personality and my professional life for sure, right?
• 17:51
  That I'm almost... I'll use this example.
• 17:54
  So there's like a Roku sort of kind of janky ass Who Wants to Be a Millionaire quiz show game, and he began playing that for a little while, and I hear him reading out the questions.
• 18:06
  And it's just, which professional wrestler, you know, it's like that, and then he says, "A, Hulk Hogan." I'm like, "No." Ooh. And like, 'cause I'm not ready for the Hulk Hogan. Could you pick anybody else? Yeah. Yeah.
• 18:17
  I mean, I'm just like, "Yeah, it's The Rock. It's The Rock. Just turn it off."
• 18:21
  But-That sort of, you know, story seems so long and complicated, but he also knows who he is 'cause he turns on Netflix and there's a documentary there.
• 18:31
  I'm like, it's kinda crazy that I have to have, you know, the sex talk, the drug talk, and the Hulk Hogan talk- Mm-hmm... at some point, right? And- Mm...
• 18:41
  how much am I just, you know, overcomplicating that and a little paranoid about it, and how much of that is real, right? Mm-hmm.
• 18:48
  Because I mean, I feel like even once they start typing, I get so mad that they use iPads at school and everything like that.
• 18:54
  I'm like, "No, this is like a, this is a, a door I don't want them walking through at this point," right? Yeah. I want to have a sit-down and a conversation. And Julianna's the same way.
• 19:04
  I mean, obviously, I mean, Julianna was like a huge star on Twitter when that was a thing, and it's obviously shaped her professional life in a lot of ways.
• 19:12
  But you know, the thing that I don't know yet is just, you know, how... I know how it makes me feel, right? Mm. And I think I'm overreacting.
• 19:22
  I definitely know I am because of just like a personal experience, but I don't want to infect them with my own shame and paranoia and things along those lines. Because I know it's unique too. Yeah. Right?
• 19:36
  I mean, it's a very unique story where it's just like, here's the worst-case scenario [laughs] of what could possibly happen. Yeah, but I mean, everybody, unless you've...
• 19:45
  Yes, your story for sure, but all of us of the same age, it's the whole like, what's the phrase? There's always a tweet. It's like somebody pops up and someone does a search and immediately- Yeah... it's like- Yeah...
• 19:55
  they hearted a Nazi tweet. Great, like they're at. You know? It's like- Yeah... everybody's got at least one of those somewhere. It's like we're all just- Yeah... at, we're of the age. Like, it's crazy.
• 20:04
  But luckily, yes- How many Nazi tweets did you guys heart? Jesus. I mean, what kind of podcast is this? I have found and deleted most of them. Boy, that's... Yeah. I have found and deleted most of them.
• 20:12
  You did it to me again, Claire. Like, I walked into this. Yeah. But it is. It's, you're right. I tell them all the time, I'm like, "Guys, look, I love technology. It's great.
• 20:20
  I would also throw my phone in the fucking ocean and go back in a heartbeat." Exactly. The internet has done incredible things- Yeah... for the world and ruined everything. And I don't know, man. Yeah. It's hard.
• 20:30
  It's a hard one. Yeah. Right. AJ, as an aside real quick, I had my, my days counter up, and it's been over five years since I've had a drink, and Paul told his friend, "Bro hasn't had a drink for over five years."
• 20:40
  Meaning me. Yeah. Yeah. Put buddy, put that on your medallion. Oh, that's cool. Fuck yeah. But they will be like, "You're always on your computer. You're always on your phone." And we're like, "Yeah, I agree." That's...
• 20:49
  I, I get that, too. Yeah. I mean- Yeah. Don't be like me... and, and, you know, Julianna and I are both, you know, on... He told me, my son told me just, "Well, you're addicted to Instagram."
• 20:57
  And I felt ashamed where I'm like, pres- I'm like, of all the things that he catches me looking at all the time, I'm like, God, is that, do I have to get a brick for the Instagram?
• 21:08
  Because I don't feel like I'm an Instagram guy at all. No, no. You know? He's just throwing things. I don't feel like that's a problem. No.
• 21:14
  He's just trying to tear you down 'cause he's your son and you're, uh, his dad and that's what boys do. So if it wasn't Instagram- All right, cool. Yeah. James- But- James threw something at Paul.
• 21:22
  Oh, S- Steve was telling James he doesn't eat enough or he doesn't sleep enough, something, and James said, "Well, you take naps." Oh, he's been holding onto that shit for a while. Yeah. He's, that's it.
• 21:32
  Uh, I mean- Fuck this guy and his naps... I think it's crazy that you nap, by the way. He should. So I understand, like, where he's coming from. But, like, the one thing that happened, like this was two years ago.
• 21:41
  My youngest son and daughter go to a different school than, than Ozzy. He goes to public and they go to private. And then she came into the car one day and she's like, "Dad, in school today
• 21:54
  they did an exercise where we typed our last name into the computer to see what came up." That's psychotic. That's what... And, and I just, "Oh, God."
• 22:06
  And she's just like, "And we saw a picture of you smoking a cigarette." And I'm like- Well..... that's kinda, I'll take that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so- Does the story stop there? Like, are we good? Right. Y- yeah.
• 22:17
  But I mean, the, the thing that I realized, and Claire, I don't know if you feel the same way or you do, Quinn, is just like when they do all, there are emails CC'd with parents, and this happens in little league or Goldie's league and my name's there.
• 22:32
  You know, I Google people and I'm like, fuck. Sure. There are absolutely people that know all my shit, right? Yeah. And I'm like, you know, how do I interact with the world?
• 22:41
  I had a guy on little league on Saturday who said, you know, he saw a podcast interview I did with Alex Winter, and I don't really, I'm very withdrawn.
• 22:54
  I don't interact with any parents at little league games or everywhere. I am absolutely the guy that no one wants to talk to, and I've made it that way. It's an intentional choice that I've made.
• 23:04
  And he comes up to me and he's, you know, "And I saw your podcast." And I was just like, you know, I was just like, "Oh, I know that face." Right? He's just like- That's amazing...
• 23:14
  and then he's like, I j- I was like, I really thought it was very sweet. The reason he said that was because he sounded like I didn't know you could say words.
• 23:23
  [laughs] I didn't know, I didn't know people liked you, right? You know? I mean- For money? Yeah. This is how I'm reading into it.
• 23:32
  But, you know, it's funny to think that people aren't doing the same things that I do, that when I see names on an email list to all parents, especially out here- Yeah... I basically go- Oh, sure... "What do they do?
• 23:46
  What do they do? Is that that guy?" Yeah. And then, but it was great for me because one time I, we have a guy in our school who is a reality star who went through a huge public shaming, and I'm basically just- Ooh. Yeah.
• 23:58
  But I mean- Okay... other people have spoken about him, you know, on, on their podcast, and I'm likeShould I kind of pull this person aside and basically be just like, "Hey, man, I see you." Yeah. Right? Yeah.
• 24:13
  Sure he'd love that. Or something like that. Ruewen would love that. Yeah, he's gonna be super pumped- Yeah... to know that y- yeah. Exactly, yeah. That he knocked you off the top of the reply all list. I know. Yeah.
• 24:21
  That is actually such a good subtopic. Like, I... There is a dad at our school, and I won't go into the details of how I Googled him 'cause it might be revealing, but it...
• 24:29
  I ended up finding out that this guy's father had sh- murdered his mother in a very high-profile trial. And yeah, exactly. And- Right... I, it, I take it as...
• 24:39
  I am really proud of the fact that I have not mentioned this to the kids, 'cause obviously if you mention to the kids, it's gonna be all over the place. But I'm just like, "That is-" Exactly.
• 24:46
  That's when reporting comes into play. That's when all of our decades of journalistic integrity really comes to the forefront, is like looking up- Right... who these people are and their association.
• 24:53
  I'm gonna sit on this one. Quin, if I found out you worked at ESPN, I mean, I would feel like, "Oh man, this guy's got an opinion of me that's not great." Right? No. No. It's... I get it. I get it.
• 25:05
  I d- I don't have anything like that, anything specific like that, but I definitely, you know, again, after all of our years in LA and all of the mostly wonderful friends we've worked with, and again, emails or projects or this, yeah, y-
• 25:17
  you can't not be a part of it. I told Claire how recently my 10-year-old recently told my wife he wished she was a janitor because she would be less easy to Google. So that was fun for her. But I'm like, what do you do?
• 25:29
  You can't put it back in the fucking box. Nobody is thinking about me as much as I am, right? I mean, I understand this, but I always feel, and this happened a lot, you know, in...
• 25:42
  soon after the trial where I was convinced everyone is looking at me and calling me an asshole in their head. Mm-hmm. And then like asking me things.
• 25:50
  And it only happened a couple times, but I was so convinced that I- It only actually happened a couple times? You only- Yes... thought it a cou- Okay. Okay. Yeah.
• 25:56
  No, I, it, it, it actually happened where people said, "You know, I know who you are." Right?
• 26:02
  And but like the thing that I had this need to explain myself, like preempt any sort of stuff that people thought about me, which made me sound crazy, right?
• 26:14
  I mean, and then I said, I'm like, "I'm not Scott Peterson or anything like that." I was like- Not yet. No. Growth mindset. Just... Right. Right.
• 26:22
  But, but it's also, but it's also, you know, lots of people didn't even know. I used to do this thing when I was living in Florida.
• 26:29
  I was in the middle of, you know, treatment, and it was soon after the trial, so I was basically doing an outpatient thing in Florida, and I would get Uber rides.
• 26:38
  And you know, back then in Florida especially, just they would be real conversational things, and they'd be just like, "Oh, what's your name? How you doing? What do you do for a living?"
• 26:46
  And I would basically just like, "Well, I used to be a writer." [laughs] And it's like, "What do you mean used to be?" Eh. Right. I got...
• 26:53
  And then I would tell the whole story, and it would always be this humbling experience because I would say, you know, "I got sued for $115 million by Hulk Hogan."
• 27:02
  And they would basically just like, "Oh, so you met Hulk Hogan?" Mm-hmm. That would be the only thing they took away from it the whole entire time.
• 27:10
  So it's just this thing that I, I have to get used to the fact that there are people in the world and parents who are probably have done more embarrassing and shameful things, but it's just not Googleable, and that also- Sure...
• 27:23
  nobody is judging me as harshly as I am, right? And my kids will not either, right? No. Hopefully. No. No. Well, first of all- Except that janitor thing makes a lot of sense to me, though, Quin, yeah.
• 27:33
  The what- whatever happened to you or you went through or you were a part of has been a million years of shame have eroded that in terms of our national consciousness, which is nice. Right.
• 27:43
  But, but also as your friend, don't you feel like you are like distinctively already at least in a third act? Like you had Gawker, trial, and now you are building this media, what do, what do you call it?
• 27:54
  Company, organization, platform to help p- people get better, discuss the act of recovery. Empire. Empire. Yeah, exactly. A fempire. Yeah. In fact. Wait, you know- But yeah, I, I'm, I'm-... fempire was about my wife.
• 28:05
  Wait, you know that. That was the whole fucking thing, the picture in The New York Times. No, I did not know that. Oh, okay. All right. Well, that's amazing. Google... This is the thing. Google fempire. Okay.
• 28:14
  It was her- Okay... and Diablo Cody and her friend Lorene Scafaria, who's great, whose birthday it is today, and Elizabeth Meriwether, who ended up making New Girl- New Girl... and a thousand other things. Right.
• 28:23
  Dying for Sex recently. Won a bunch of awards. Fempire. Their whole life, fempire. My kids have Googled it a thousand times, and my wife was like, "It was a one-hour photo shoot." That's amazing.
• 28:31
  "Yes, we're friends, but no, the, please make it stop." Yeah. Well- It never dies... back to you, AJ. Empire. Just a himpire. [laughs] Oh, I'm gonna call it fempire from now on. Yeah.
• 28:42
  I mean, I'm just getting used to that. I'm getting used to the fact that I guess was 10 years ago. I mean, I just participated in this, you know, Hollywood Reporter kind of 10 years after the trial sort of- Mm...
• 28:53
  kind of oral history thing, and I'm like, that's a decade. That's so long. And I've been basically doing, you know, The Small Bow for eight years, which is so much longer than I ever was at Gawker, right? Mm-hmm.
• 29:04
  And this has been such an important part of my life, but I always feel like I'm still putting an asterisk next to it in my head. Into which one? And I still get... Yeah.
• 29:14
  Well, I mean, I always think of it as just I hate when people that have, you know... I've had some people say that just, "Oh, is this like your redemption arc," right? Mm-hmm.
• 29:22
  And I never planned it that way, but I can see how people would think that there would be here's this thing that I had to do to kind of just, you know, cleanse my timeline basically, right?
• 29:33
  And it's been the opposite of that. I never tried to step on the gas with this thing. I never tried to kind of, you know, build this out into something scalable, whatever the fuck that word means.
• 29:44
  And now I'm finally kind of embracing that side of this a little bit to try it out. But it had took a long time, right? Mm.
• 29:51
  It took a long time because I was so paranoid that I didn't wanna unlock this other kind of ambition monster in my- inside me- Yeah...
• 30:00
  that was going to kind of take me back to a place where this wouldn't be an enjoyable job and this would turn competitive. Yeah. It would bring out the uglier sides of me.Right.
• 30:09
  Well, you used to work for, you know, in the olden blogging days, if people aren't familiar, and which it sounds like I'm, sound like I'm being ironic, but I'm sure there's some young people who don't know.
• 30:18
  But AJ worked in a model where it was- How many young people follow, or are kids listening to this? Is this a kids podcast? What are you- No Good news. No, it's for parents, but teen pregnancy is way down.
• 30:26
  Our listeners are very old and tired. Have you ever tried talking to a 40-year-old? They don't know anything. They are like- They don't... 40. So [laughs] you never know.
• 30:35
  I, no, I've had that with, you know, I've had, you know, 35-year-olds and basically just, you know, I've texted and that'd be, they're just like, "Okay, well, you know, let's hop on a phone call."
• 30:43
  And they'd be like, "Why?" You're like, "Well, first of all, I have to get my computer out to look at this." Don't you, don't you like walk around talking to people? Yeah. And nobody does. Yeah. It's, yeah.
• 30:50
  And you used to have to write to get clicks, right?
• 30:52
  And the aim was to get the most eyeballs per piece, and that was a working model that like even if you had a similar level of success, you and Julianne have three kids, and her career is not like something that's 9:00 to 5:00.
• 31:05
  So even if you got the kind of success, if you had to work that same model, you probably couldn't again anyway.
• 31:11
  And don't you think having kids is kind of a metaphor for this project, where it's like it is what you make of it and it's sort of not entirely- Yeah... in your control, you know?
• 31:20
  Well, it's a- amazing too, 'cause I probably have maybe three and a half to four hours per day max of work, where it's just- Wow... you know, you wake up, you do the morning routine, and then, you know, I'm pickup guy.
• 31:30
  So on Tuesdays my son gets picked up at 1:30, which is insane. So it's like a half day all the time. And then, you know, it's either 1:30 or 2:00. So I mean, I kinda have a 10:00 to 1:00 sort of work day.
• 31:43
  But I'm much more efficient than I ever would. I mean, just like on, when I have days off and it's just, oh, I've got a full day to catch up on work, I do nothing. That's nap day for me. Oh. I do absolutely nothing.
• 31:56
  I dick around on the phone. So it's better for me that I have this sort of structure than it ever has been. But as far as cons- I never, it's weird that I never actually played the page view game- Mm... ever. You know?
• 32:11
  I mean, I was always trying to get attention, right? Yeah. I loved attention. I always thought it was important for me to be the story as opposed to the story about that. Mm. I loved that.
• 32:23
  But, and this has probably helped me out a lot, that I was just like, I, I need to be, I need real life sort of [laughs]...
• 32:31
  What's that thing in Always Sunny in Philadelphia where they're doing like the Dayman thing and he's just, "You know, I want, I'm going for gasps," right? And that's kinda my approach to things, right? Yeah.
• 32:40
  So it, but it's funny that, you know, I have a business partner, Garrett, who like, you know, loves to update me on how many subscribers we're hemorrhaging because we left Substack, right? Mm.
• 32:51
  And I'm like, "Man, I don't give a shit about that." Yeah. It does not matter at all, right? Yeah. You know, I don't wanna, you know, tell him that much, but I mean, it doesn't really. Yeah.
• 33:01
  I mean, these are just numbers. I mean, it just... I mean, you know how, you know, Evil Witches hasn't kind of busted out, but you've done that intentionally too. I remember we were talking about that. Yeah.
• 33:11
  But it's also just like you have such a vibrant and kind of active just readership where people care intimately. I'd rather have, you know, 2,000 people who loved what I did versus- Yeah... 45,000 drive-by people.
• 33:23
  Explaining yourself to someone who is not mostly already on board, you know? Yeah. Like, I- Exactly. Yeah... if you're not into it, we don't have to do this. No. Yeah.
• 33:30
  No, but I mean, I, you know, I've, I've gone into it's just like your comments section and I'm just like, oh, people are getting this intimately, and people wanted this in their life, right? Yeah.
• 33:39
  And that's the similar way I feel about The Small Bow, where it's just like, okay- Yeah... I know here's a, here is something that people who weren't in traditional recovery had been kind of looking for.
• 33:49
  I call it, it's just like here is a place for kind of people who didn't have their place, who are just strange feeling more than- Mm... addicted feeling, right? Yeah.
• 33:56
  They can't really, uh, they can't really kind of qualify in any sort of, you know, direct way for anything. And those are the people that love it the most too. Yeah.
• 34:04
  I haven't been to a meeting in a bit and, but yours are the only meetings I've ever been to, and the, well, I can't... I feel the same way about your meetings as I do about church.
• 34:13
  I don't really have a good reason for why I do or don't go. Yeah.
• 34:15
  But I, talk a little bit for anyone listening who is not really that familiar about the role, like how much you guys talk about sober parenting, like how much that- Yeah... comes in meetings or groups.
• 34:24
  Just people who might be listening who might be sober parenting curious. Right. I mean, I think that sober parenting is really just distressed parenting. It's kind of, you know, how do I not yell
• 34:37
  in the way that I want to, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, I have always kind of, you know, judging my recovery based off of how much I yell at my kids and my dogs too.
• 34:48
  The dogs kinda get it worse sometimes, and the dogs are b- it's like always looking at me like, "What the fuck's the matter with you?" Just like, you know, just kibble on the floor, man.
• 34:56
  But I mean, you know, I, th- and that's really where it comes up.
• 35:00
  It's just, you know, I do a lot of Al-Anon work, so the concept of re-parenting is basically big, and I'm trying to kind of be a better parent to me than my parents were, and that's supposed to, you know, translate over to how I parent my kids.
• 35:12
  So that's really what we talk about more than anything. It's not, oh, you know, I need to drink today 'cause my kids were yelling. It's never like that.
• 35:20
  It's more about kind of just the emotional part of this where it's just, oh, I can't have those road rage-y moments that are coming from something darker place that's not related to them at all. Like- Mm-hmm...
• 35:31
  it's basically how to like kind of modulate those sort of emotions. Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:36
  I do think, I mean, I remember, I think I interviewed you for Evil Witches the very first time, I don't know how many, many years ago because the- Yeah...
• 35:42
  idea of sober parenting was so unusual to me that I was like, I gotta find these freakos who, like, are doing this without- Right... a net, you know? Yeah. And, uh, and I have, I'm not 100% sober at the moment.
• 35:54
  I wish I was. Part of me was like, I'm gonna get like a lot of weeks under my belt with no THC to talk to AJ, so I'll be like, really deserve it, then come to that. Yeah.
• 36:02
  But, you know- It'd be funny if I just slammed my laptop down right now, just like that. [laughs] Yeah. Be like, tell everyone on your podcast that don't ever believe her or listen to her. I know.
• 36:11
  Um, she doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about. But, um, but yeah, because for me, at least for the first many years of parenting, drinking, I didn't really know how to drink until I had kids.
• 36:20
  You know, that, 'cause that's the thing that I'd never experienced is basically having kids and drinking and all the stuff that I used to do.I mean, I, uh, but it's weird.
• 36:29
  I could imagine doing it because I, and I think of it the way, you know, 'cause I stopped smoking three months before our first son was born.
• 36:37
  I don't know how I did that because, you know, I felt like I was gonna have a life of running outside to basically just try to feel better about things in the way I used to change my emotions than the way that I did, you know, to feel better.
• 36:51
  And now I just need different ways of doing that, right? And most of the time it requires me calling other dudes who are dads and basically that's it. That is, like, the thing that helps the most, right?
• 37:05
  And do you just say, "Yellow flag day, I need some... How are you doing? What do you..." Like, what do you put out there?
• 37:10
  I put out there, and it, this really hap- this happened last year where, you know, my s- my son was kind of, you know, bullied at an all-star tryout, right? Oh, yeah. And
• 37:25
  I, you know, I wanted to get, you know, full on, like, drive into the coach's car, 'cause it was the coach's son who did it, too. Oh.
• 37:33
  And I was just like, you know, I, I wanted to basically just, you know, drive a car through their garage, right? Mm-hmm.
• 37:38
  I felt, you know, all of his pain, and my son was handling it pretty well, but it was one of those things where I'm just like, "Oh, I need a reminder that this is not me." Mm-hmm. "I'm not the one being impacted here.
• 37:53
  I'm not the..." Like I, I can't basically co-opt this experience and basically just make it about whatever I felt like when I was a nine-year-old. Mm.
• 38:01
  And this is not taking care of the bullies that are in my head all the time.
• 38:05
  That's what I really need help with because, I mean, that's the way that I can kind of act out at them when I hear myself, like, I hear my dad sometimes pop out where I'm just, like, looking at him and it's just, you know, "Come on, don't be a pussy."
• 38:17
  Oh. And I don't say that, but I mean- Right... I'm, like, thinking it sometimes, and I'm like, "You know, that's exactly what brought me into these rooms to begin with, so I can't do that, so I have to talk." Right.
• 38:26
  And those are the types of conversations that I have. Good. I... Why is baseball so fucking heartbreaking and fraught for men? I mean, and then w- women also as well, but not to the same extent. I'm just, like- Right...
• 38:38
  as an example, Paul's team was in the championship for Little League a couple years ago, and my dad was at the game, and instead of being excited that his grandson was in this championship game, my dad was only worried that the team would lose and Paul would be the reason why they lost.
• 38:54
  It's so crazy to me. I think that is crazy. I think that was one of the first things you and I ever talked about, and I just remember- Yeah... being like, "Yep." Yeah.
• 39:01
  I mean, I, this happened last night where it's like they're, you know, it was a close game in the last inning and I see, you know, him in the batting order coming up and I'm just like, "God, please, just let this end before he can get...
• 39:14
  Don't let him bat. Don't let him bat. Don't let him bat." I can't deal with him striking out in this position. This is too much pressure.
• 39:20
  'Cause it's like, I mean, and of course it's, like, all on you, and I don't, I mean, it's just I know the same feeling last, yesterday.
• 39:25
  The girl at the volleyball game, Paul was only put in for one play, but all the girls were there, and whether they were being funny or they meant it, they had started chanting, "We want Paul," 'cause he hadn't been put in the game yet.
• 39:36
  So they put him in. He did exactly one play. He did it successfully. It's literally Rudy. And that took an hour. It's the plot of Rudy. Hold on a minute. I haven't seen Rudy.
• 39:48
  But did you hear the thing about Rudy that absolutely just, you know, broke my heart? 'Cause, like, John, Joe Montana was on that team, right? Joe Montana was basically just, like, the backup quarterback at that point.
• 39:57
  I think he was a freshman in that year, and he's just like, "Yeah, we carried him off the field, but we were just fucking around." [laughs] They were basically making fun of Rudy. Joe. Yeah. Joe, sit on it, man. Come on.
• 40:09
  I know. Yeah. He was just like- Well, yeah... "Yeah, he was kind of an asshole." Nice. Retired athletes really don't give a fuck.
• 40:15
  But they, yeah, but it is the same thing where I was like, please don't let him fuck up in front of these girls, and who cares? I don't remember anything- Yeah...
• 40:20
  about what I thought about boys when I was in eighth grade, but, you know, just, it, it is too much. But again, it's baseball is way more fraught. I don't know how it ended up being that way.
• 40:28
  I don't know, like, every sport carries the same amount of emotions. Yeah. But I mean, I don't...
• 40:34
  The thing that I really remember, one of my most vivid memories, 'cause my dad was the best at making me feel worse than was necessary for- Mm...
• 40:43
  you know, all my fuck-ups in sports, and I still, like, in, in my nightmares I remember, you know, him coming to my games and then it's just, like, completely just changing my whole entire approach to everything.
• 40:55
  Just being anxious and, like, error- and just, like, I, I did not want him there because he would make me feel so bad if I did poorly, right?
• 41:04
  And so that's the thing when, you know, when Ozzie does have a bad game or something like that, I am, like, right in there basically just, "All right. Let's get McDonald's. Let's get baseball cards." Yeah.
• 41:13
  I am not gonna let him kind of just make him feel like that he actually, that this is something that's going to kind of, you know, scar him for life, right?
• 41:21
  We're not taking him to the diamond to drill him with balls until he can stop fucking up and start making you proud? Oh, we do that, too. Okay. Yeah. No, I get it. I mean, and it's the same thing.
• 41:31
  It's, well, you know, you, you have to remind yourself. You're like, "This is just a pile of disappointments that, you know, will follow the kid." Mm-hmm. But also maybe not. Maybe there won't be. You never know.
• 41:40
  It's always refreshing when you're like, "Are you okay?" And the kid is like, "We stopped caring about that 25 minutes ago," or whatever. You know?
• 41:46
  I mean, it's so crazy that, you know, you look back and I see my Little League experience, which, I mean, I played, you know, it's like I played all-star level between 12 and 16. It was a fun experience for me.
• 42:02
  But, you know, and he started to, 'cause they had, you know, all-star tryouts again, and, you know, he's waiting to find out if he made it, and he's just like, "Did you make the all-star team?" I'm like, "I did."
• 42:14
  And he's, "What position you play?" I'm like, "Center field." And he was really impressed. Well, because I was 12 and that seems very old to him, like borderline professional. [laughs] Sure. Yeah. Like, you played- Yeah.
• 42:27
  Like, why didn't you make it?... a high level for that long. Why don't we have a totally different life, Dad?
• 42:30
  But, you know, it's also one of those things where I'm just like, oh, this is a moment that I can actually enjoy my athletic prowess in a way that's just like, you know.
• 42:38
  But I'm just-Watching him, I'm like, the thing that is gonna hurt me the most if this stops being fun for him. Mm-hmm. Oh.
• 42:46
  If he somehow hates baseball because he's not picked for something or he's not one of the best players on the team. Well, as I've- 'Cause eventually that will happen, right? Well, yes.
• 42:56
  And my kids are, who knows what they are, 11, 12, 13, whatever, and we've had the talk a little bit recently about you're still choosing the sports or events or whatever. Yeah.
• 43:05
  At some point, just so you know so it's not a surprise, they will choose you, and that's a little harder, and it's that way with band or whatever, you know? Oh, it's sweet you're playing the saxophone.
• 43:13
  Eventually someone's gonna be like, "You should stop. You should not do this anymore." And, or, you know, or whatever, but it's gonna happen, and every time they kinda make a team or whatever you're like, "Okay, good."
• 43:23
  But our three rules are, for whatever they do, is try your hardest, which is different than do your best because- Yeah... it's not in your control if it's your best sometimes.
• 43:33
  Be the best teammate you can be, which includes being like not a fuck up to the coach. Exactly. Yeah. And have fun.
• 43:39
  And I'm like, if you're not doing those, well, one, if you sign up for something I've paid for, you're fucking finishing the season. But otherwise, like if those things aren't happening, that's fine. Yeah.
• 43:48
  I don't care if you're the slowest kid as long as you're trying your hardest, you're cheering on the other kids and having fun. I will never coach. Exactly. I have seen the dark side of all the sports. I'm like you.
• 43:56
  So like I, I played baseball and swam in college, did all the stuff. My dad was, fucking rode me on all of the things. Right. And I got a note, Claire, I don't remember if I told you about this one. Mm.
• 44:07
  From my oldest, now 13. He was probably, I don't know man, 11. And again, like I, I don't spend a lot of time talking about the old days, like whatever. And he had a rough truly like Little League tryout.
• 44:23
  Everyone makes the team. It's like a grounder, a fly ball, you get a couple swings, you throw it and that's it. Yeah.
• 44:28
  I woke up to a little handwritten note under my door a- and we hadn't talked about it like at all, and he was like, "Dad, I'm really sorry I'm not as good as you were." Oh, God.
• 44:37
  "And like I don't know if I'm gonna do this, and I wanna live up to it." Oh. And I was like, if I wasn't already committed to not doing the whole thing, now I'm just like full stop. Are you fu... What?
• 44:49
  I f- I was like, what did, what happened to make you feel like you had to write that? Yeah. I was like, "We're not going down that fucking road, man." I, man. Why do you th- 'cause th- this is the thing.
• 44:58
  I, A, you know, they do have, they have an all-star travel team at eight and under, which is way too young. Yeah. Kids pitch i- is crazy in this league. I'm coaching it right now. It's crazy.
• 45:11
  But they don't even teach them how to pitch, so it's basically like body bag games, like everything. Yeah.
• 45:15
  Where it's just like everybody's getting hit, and you know, they, so he had these tryouts last weekend and the coach comes up to like all the parents in the stands and it's just, you know, "We have 28 kids trying out.
• 45:26
  We have 24 spots. Uh, there's the math." [laughs] And you know, you're kind of just like sitting with it. For what age? And the whole time I'm like... What's it, not eight? Oh, geez. Fuck off. Like that's it. Yeah.
• 45:37
  Well, that's the thing is, and I'm sitting there the whole time watching this tryout and I'm basically just, you know, is he the 24th best player out there right now?
• 45:48
  And I feel like he is, but you know, he's on the cusp, right? I mean, it's just like this could go some way. This could be like a political thing and then he doesn't get chosen for this.
• 45:59
  But I, the, like after I told him, and he had a really great tryout. He really did. And I just told him, I was just like, "Well, you, you belong here," right? That's it.
• 46:10
  That's all I can tell him, 'cause the rest of it is completely out of my control and I'm not gonna freak out if he doesn't make it. Yeah. But he does belong there, for sure. Yeah. Oh, God. I hope he, I hope he makes it.
• 46:22
  Eight. Eight travel team. That shit drives me fucking- No. Travel team all-star.
• 46:26
  I'm not surpri- my friend's son, I've told, I told Quinn this before, my friend's son didn't make the tryouts for travel some years ago, and he was sobbing in his bed, and she's on the one hand relieved that he didn't make the team.
• 46:37
  Right. And on the other hand, already reading the coach's copious, the coach's copious notes on how her son could do better, and being like, "Should I email the coach about what..."
• 46:44
  You know, already torn between not that she wants him, but she just doesn't want him to be sad, you know? And it is... Oh. You guys are both really good dads. I just wanna tell you guys that.
• 46:52
  You guys are very thoughtful, like- I'm gonna make that my ringtone. Thank you. Sweet. Yeah. Put it on there. I'm not gonna say it again.
• 46:57
  But I have a question for you guys kind of related to sports, but also about being a guy, a former teenage boy, that is.
• 47:03
  So Paul's, he's 13, he's almost 14, and he's, he's not that bad, but part of his adolescent attitude is sort of acting like he doesn't give a shit about things that he prior gave a shit about.
• 47:14
  And I know that's how teens are, but it's really annoying when you are facilitating the thing that he doesn't give a shit about. Yeah. So this took the form of volleyball recently, where he was saying how nobody cares.
• 47:24
  They don't take it seriously.
• 47:26
  And uh, for parents who have been sitting through double games back to back out in the suburbs, you're like, "I don't care if you really give a shit, but at least don't tell me that to my fucking face."
• 47:35
  And, and anyway, I'm having a hard time walking the line of snapping at him all the time about this kind of like ingratitude, but also, or ungratefulness, but also being like, this is the age. This is what they do.
• 47:46
  It could be so much worse. So I don't know how to like, when to know when to take it personally and when to be like, I guess this is just like a semi-asshole phase, and to just let him cook. Yeah.
• 47:56
  My short answer, as we've talked about, is you get to feel all your fucking feelings. You don't get to be a dick. And that, then you're invading on my fucking experience.
• 48:07
  You got your hormones, you got your emotions, you're tired, you're hungry, you got dumped, you're horny. Like, I don't fucking care, but you don't get to take it out on everybody.
• 48:14
  Family, for whatever reason- You know, when I was in my young teenage years, I mean, I look back on that and I, I was a good kid, but my parents made me feel like I was not, you know?
• 48:25
  And I wasn't rebelling in any sort of way, and I had this very vivid memory where I was, you know, I was playing four sports, and I was like in jazz band, and I had friends.
• 48:35
  But I mean, I was also kind of a '80s metalhead, so I basically was kind of obsessed with kind of all these bands that my parents thought were scary.And thought I was headed down the wrong path.
• 48:47
  And I got a C in English or something like that, and my father put my guitar in his trunk. But it was like, it was one of those things where I'm just like, "Oh, well, like why should I love anything?"
• 48:57
  And I remember my mom, she... My dad demanded that, you know, we talk to my guidance counselor. And my mom, you know, having this conversation, and I remember it in the kitchen, and my mom hanging up the phone, and
• 49:12
  my dad's, you know, we're ready to have this conversation. My dad was ready to kinda send me to private, to like, you know- Yeah, military school... what's it called? Catholic school. Yeah. Yeah.
• 49:20
  And my mom comes over and just, you know, "Well, the guidance counselor said just, 'Okay, your son, you know, plays athletics, is in jazz band, and has friends, and he is mostly doing great in school.
• 49:35
  What's your problem?'" [laughs] I... [laughs] And that was the message relayed. And I still remember that, 'cause that was the first time anyone, an adult stuck up for me. 'Cause my parents sucked at it. Yeah.
• 49:46
  They really did. I look back, I mean, I didn't become, I didn't become a problem until I was 30. That's when I started to rebel [laughs] Yeah... really.
• 49:55
  But I mean, you know, through 13 through 15, 16, I mean, I was kinda softy. I was a good kid. I wanted people to like me a lot. I wasn't doing anything that, you know, I, I didn't have a bad attitude. Yeah.
• 50:07
  Um, I just got left behind- Mm-hmm... in a lot of ways. That was when I started getting cut from teams, and that was when, you know, I started to kind of feel like, oh, I don't have any friends and all this stuff.
• 50:18
  I was really lonely, and my parents made me feel like it was my fault. Aw. Sorry to be a downer on this podcast. No. No, not at all. Geez. Sorry, friends. I- No, but that's- Yeah...
• 50:25
  a good reminder though that I'm like, okay, Paul doesn't have any real problems. And again, part of the p- point of having a parent is to, like, gently push aga- against them.
• 50:34
  You know, I'm sensitive lately 'cause he's been, like, moping about family stuff.
• 50:38
  It was grandparents day this week at school, and like, I don't know if you knew AJ, my mom had, like, a medical whatever, meltdown, and, um, so they basically were, have no- Right...
• 50:48
  local grandparents at the moment who can function. And, and Paul said it didn't matter, but then he was like, "So and so's grandparents are so funny and active."
• 50:54
  And then like, "Why aren't we having a big graduation party for me?" And you know, and, uh- Yeah... whatever.
• 51:00
  I know that's just, like, comes with the territory that no kid, no 13-year-old's gonna be like, "Thank you every day for everything that you do for me" and, uh- Yeah... no other notes. But- It's hard.
• 51:08
  It's the whole thing where people are like, "Where did the child I had go?" type of shit, however it went. It's 13 or... Yeah. I mean, I, I, AJ, was the opposite. I was this tall when I was 11,
• 51:18
  crushed every- I didn't not make a team, girls, whatever the thing was. Yeah. I was a dick bag, you know? Now I get the emails about my 13-year-old's report cards come in, and he literally has a 100 in every grade.
• 51:30
  And I'm like, you are having a fundamentally different experience than I did. 'Cause I was like, "I'm not gonna do anything for the next seven to eight years, guys. I'm gonna be really honest- Yeah... with you.
• 51:39
  If it doesn't involve fingering a baseball or something else, I'm out. I'm sorry." Yeah. Which is, I understand why everyone was mad at me. Every 10 minutes I'm like, "What the hell kind of podcast is this?" I know.
• 51:50
  Like... Yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the danger zone. Yeah, we're not, we're not, we're on drugs, so we're not- Right... we're not like the podcast- Correct. Correct... where you have to make sense. Sort of sober. Right. Yeah.
• 52:00
  Speaking of, can I change the subject slightly to, uh, I mean, we're still talking about kids, but AJ, I just wanted to hear briefly about how life is going as a parenting expert with a, an advice column- Mm-hmm...
• 52:10
  over at Slate. Mm-hmm. Tell me- Mm-hmm... what that's been like. [laughs] It, it is honestly, it is the most fun I've had writing on the internet in probably 25 years. Really? Like- Okay... yeah. Yeah.
• 52:22
  It's basically just these absurd questions, and I- I'm pretty sure half of them are fake. [laughs] But you get to, like, answer this stuff in a way which, you know, I, I have to...
• 52:35
  I really point it back to my own parenting.
• 52:37
  Like, there was this one question, you know, this week where, like, a, a, a woman who wasn't a parent was asking if it's okay to say no to other people's kids or just, like, kind of if they are disruptive in a space, like, you know, can I, can I kinda discipline them the wrong way?
• 52:54
  Yeah. And I said, "Yeah, it's within your right. Just don't do it to my kids," [laughs] basically, right? Yeah. Because I hadn't experienced it at, like...
• 53:02
  And I said it, like, it was six months ago, we went to a restaurant, and there was a single stall bathroom. So all three of my kids basically go to the bathroom at the same time.
• 53:12
  And so it, you know, you know what an eight, seven, and six-year-old basically all go into the bathroom at once is. And there's this guy at another table who I heard kind of being, like, obnoxious to the server. Mm.
• 53:25
  And it already kinda stuck in my head. And then he walked over to, like, the bathroom, right? Mm-hmm. And they're messing around waiting for the little... And he says, "All right, come on guys, no messing around."
• 53:37
  And I was like Russell Crowe in basically L.A. Confidential during the interrogation scene where I was just like, "Ah." Like, I'm ready to fucking dunk this guy in the toilet, right? You know? And he was in the right.
• 53:50
  Yeah. Correct. It made him come. Yeah. Right. They were messing around for way too long, but- Yeah... it's just one of those things where it's just this primal rage which comes up where I don't know...
• 54:00
  I remember distinctly the first adult who made me feel very small- Oh... and yelled at, wasn't my parent. Like, it's a bad feeling, right? Yeah.
• 54:09
  And I think it just, you know, when I saw that happening in real time, I'm basically defending myself when I was like nine years old or whatever. Yeah. No, it sucks.
• 54:19
  I still remember very clearly, like, when James was a toddler, we were at some restaurant in Maine, and he was so wiggly and, and some guy and his wife moved tables to get cl- further away from us.
• 54:28
  And I, my feelings were so hurt, and also I completely understood at the same time. Right. You were like, "Take me with you." Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. "Fuck you, take me with you." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 54:36
  "Fuck you," and I don't blame you one bit. But yeah. So A- A- AJ, do you choose the questions or does your editor float them to you? Like, tell, tell me where they- They put...
• 54:43
  They, they give me, you know, the list of the questions. There are usually three. Mm-hmm. And you know, I, I get to respond to them. But I mean, it's so fucking fun.
• 54:52
  It is just super kind of, like, old school blogging where I get to make jokes and it's not, like, as heavy as, you know, all the stuff that I'm used to writing about now. Yeah.
• 55:00
  And-I'm also just, you know, I don't know why I have suddenly, you know, gained this status where I have answers to these questions. I never struggle.
• 55:10
  So I'll ask Julianne, but just to help me out with certain things, but they're mostly jokes. Yeah. I usually have an answer just to stuff, and I, they're not necessarily the right answer- Sure...
• 55:19
  but they are pretty much this is how I would react in this situation. Yeah. We had Emily Gould on some weeks ago, and she, you know, I, she might have had the same gig.
• 55:26
  No, she had one for New York Magazine for the Cut- Yeah, she did... but she was- Yeah... but she was saying how like you're writing not so much for the person writing to you, but for the whole audience, you know?
• 55:34
  And so the pressure's not necessarily on to be- Yeah... quite right, but- No, we've, uh, we've swapped questions basically just like to fill out our own, you know [laughs] columns- Really? Really cute... basically. Yeah.
• 55:44
  What is, tell me somebody who wrote in that stuck in your mind, their kid question or their parenting question. Oh, man. There was... This is the, there were two.
• 55:52
  One, there was a person, it was like a couple months ago, who said that they caught their eight and nine-year-old smoking a joint on their front lawn, right? [laughs] Yeah. Because- Yeah...
• 56:03
  they were friends with a family who they were basically just, oh, and they smoke pot all the time, and, you know, their friend, uh, I guess they got some weed, and they were smoking pot. And they were smoking- Oh...
• 56:14
  pot on like the front yard. And, you know, I was, A, shocked. I'm like, "Okay, I'm not prepared to have that sort of conversation [laughs] with my eight-year-old at this point." Right.
• 56:25
  But I also talked about it, and my response was basically just, "Okay, you know, your kids aren't gonna turn into Cheech and Chong over this, right? And don't punish the other parents.
• 56:35
  Don't like, you know, make them lose a friend," right? Oh.
• 56:39
  And so my editor writes me back that, you know, when I put that, when she published it, she was like, "There are people freaking out in the comments because you're not explaining the dangers of drugs at this point, in this," stuff like that.
• 56:53
  And I'm like, "Do I need a fucking surgeon general's warning- Right... to put in here?" But I understand 'cause this is all these parents basically being fearful of their own kids. They think- Mm-hmm...
• 57:01
  I'm putting out that advice of just what are we supposed to do? You know- Mm... punish them? Right. Because, I mean, they're still eight and nine. It's crazy that they're smoking weed, but at the same time- Yeah...
• 57:10
  I'm not gonna look at this as they're gonna be turned into meth addicts, right- Mm-hmm... when they're 12. No. I don't think anybody should. Right.
• 57:17
  But, and the other thing was, and this I'm curious to how you guys would react, was this week
• 57:24
  woman writes in, and she's like, "You know, my husband's parents, right, were in charge of babysitting our kids, and they live in a beach town.
• 57:33
  And it's a six and an eight-year-old, and the grandparents took them parasailing without asking, you know, their permission," right? Mm-hmm. And she was livid. She was basically- Right...
• 57:45
  just, you know, they're like grandpa- you know, they're not allowed to basically watch the kids solo ever again. Oh. I really want to tell them that. And
• 57:53
  I was like, okay, you know, A, you know, I understand that reaction, but also I'm... M- my question was like, "Were your kids scarred for life, or did they have the best time ever?" [laughs] Right? Yeah. Yeah. That...
• 58:07
  Because it's, you know, part of me is, okay, if they are experiencing that and they have fun, I'm like, okay, well, you know, they're probably not gonna be...
• 58:16
  They're probably gonna be adventurous and wanna do things and basically have a lot less fear than I did at that age. Yeah. And just because you're afraid of what could possibly happen, A, nothing bad happened. Right.
• 58:27
  Right? But also there could be like a component- Also, there's something like a middle ground, which is like maybe just ask next time. Yeah. That's what I said. Yeah. That's exactly what I said. Yeah. What?
• 58:36
  I was just like, you know, just explain to, you know, to your in-laws that, okay, you know, scared, hurt, paranoid, all that stuff, can you ask the next time? Yeah.
• 58:45
  But also, I mean, you know, don't really kind of make them feel like they did something bad if they didn't. Right. It's one thing if these kids were terrified. She didn't mention that. Yeah. Didn't mention that at all.
• 58:55
  Right. I think that would've been part of the question had, you know, if they mentioned that. Then it's obviously, yeah, it's a different response. But for the most part, I'm just like, you should really encourage it.
• 59:04
  Just because we're afraid of something, don't make your kids kind of afraid of it just by default, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because you wanna protect them. Yeah.
• 59:11
  That's such an interesting, 'cause I feel like you hear a ver- you hear a version of that question about, uh, a c- child trying to block babysitting from an in-law or parent, but it's usually for something like smoking or- Yes...
• 59:21
  getting drunk, you know? Yeah. I d- I don't know what else. Having a gun around. That's such a funny example.
• 59:26
  But yeah, if the kids had a great time, then like, [laughs] I don't know, you'd be like, "That's random, but, you know, I'm glad you guys came back," you know? But yeah, that is an interesting one. Yeah.
• 59:35
  Good for, good for the kids for having fun grandparents. That's what, that's what I'm say- that's what I'm saying.
• 59:38
  It's just, you know, I said that the kids that I grew up with, the kids that were basically just, you know, riding dirt bikes and going on roller coasters when, you know, we felt like that was like the most dangerous thing in the world, were like some of the most well-adjusted-
• 59:54
  Yeah... very early. Yeah. You know? Yeah. The kids that are doing that at nine, at 12 they're basically just not phased by anything, right? No. Well, and at this time of our lives, anything can be dangerous.
• 1:00:04
  My dad was, like, I sent him a picture. We went horseback riding in Costa Rica with the boys, and then I said, "We're going zip lining the next day." And he said, "I wonder how safe zip lining is."
• 1:00:13
  And I wanted to be like, "You think riding a bunch of horses with no helmets in a foreign country- Yeah, have you met Christopher Reeves? What are you talking about? Yeah, I was thinking of Christopher Reeves- Exactly.
• 1:00:20
  Yeah... the entire time. But, you know, a- any bike riding, like e-bike riding, anything. So, like I have r- I'm more scared of kids hurting themselves while sledding.
• 1:00:30
  I think when we like h- we talked about the dangers of, great- Right...
• 1:00:33
  dangers of sledding then, so, um- I would much rather my kid break an ankle wrestling in a tree with one of their fucking friends or whatever than get molested on Roblox. It's not even close. Yes.
• 1:00:42
  I, AJ, you would appreciate this, and we're gonna wrap up in a second 'cause my alarm just went off to re- remember to take my pills. But Paul, so part of his- Again, this podcast just twists and turns. Like- Yeah.
• 1:00:53
  Time to drop acid 'cause it's Friday- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... 1:15. Paul has a, part of it, again, being their age, and I think just being boys is just constant bullshitting.
• 1:01:01
  And I think part of it is to see if it will tr- trigger me or not. But he was saying how when he gets older, he's not gonna smoke cigarettes, he's gonna smoke cigars, and how- Yeah...
• 1:01:09
  he can't wait.And I almost started to explain that you inhale differently with cigars and cigarettes and he, but he was saying how much healthier cigars are than cig- Anyway, we're, when, it doesn't even matter.
• 1:01:18
  I didn't t- Yeah... take him up on any of it 'cause it was like 7:15 AM on a Tuesday. But just so you know- Yeah...
• 1:01:24
  that's Paul's plans is don't, if you need to smoke cigars with someone, I know a child, a future adult who'll be there ready for you. Yeah. Ready and excited.
• 1:01:31
  AJ, I feel like we could talk about a lot more stuff, but we all gotta go. I gotta go take my, all my pills and my hallucinogens. But, um- Yeah...
• 1:01:39
  just real quick, Julianne, your wife, also a screenwriter like Quinn's wife, Dana, I love her newsletter so much. Are you reading her newsletter when it goes out? Like, how do you guys separate the streams?
• 1:01:50
  She sometimes ask me for permission- Mm... on stuff and I said, "You know, I don't want you to ask me that," right? "You're a writer and I understand that." And I also just- Yeah...
• 1:02:05
  you know, "I have to trust you with some things, right? Right. And I will," right? And that's it. So yeah, somet- when she asks me that, I don't read it, read those newsletters. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:16
  But, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I, uh, I think we have to kinda grow in a creative household, and I understand, like, you know, especially if, when she's not working, how stressful that is. Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:26
  And, you know, how bad she feels sometimes, so I'm not gonna add to it. Like, if she's writing, that's great. Like, I- Yeah... as far as I'm concerned, so. Yeah. You know? What is she working on now?
• 1:02:35
  Um, you know, pitching basically. Mm. You know? Okay. Shows, so. Yeah. You know? I also wanted to give you, uh, I was thinking about this, like, while I was getting ready. I, you guys named your kids very well.
• 1:02:45
  Your kids all have, like, very distinctive- Thank you... memorable names, but they're also, like, Quinn, they're, uh, Ozzy, Ivy, which is short for Iverson, and Levon, right? Levon's a great name. Fuck. Goddammit.
• 1:02:56
  But, you know, here's a crazy thing 'cause, so cut to, you know, seven years ago, Thanksgiving, watching Last Waltz as, you know, anyone- As you do... like, you know, any, any good white person does on Thanksgiving.
• 1:03:12
  But, you know, and we were sitting there, we're like, "Why don't, why isn't there more Levons in the world? If we have another kid, we're naming him Levon." And we did. Well done, sir.
• 1:03:22
  And then we c- and then we're also in Los Angeles. So now, within a two-mile radius, there are three fucking Levons. Three Levons. Of course there are. Yes. You fucking assholes. Oh, you guys.
• 1:03:33
  And they're, and they, and they're all like, you know, just, you know, Last Waltz, Levon Helm. Yeah. Yes. You know? No. Of course.
• 1:03:42
  I, well, if it makes you feel better, AJ, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I used to fantasize about the daughter that I never had, and I was gonna- Who?... name her April and give her the middle name J. AJ.
• 1:03:50
  Yeah. A- And I thought that'd be so cute to have a girl named AJ, but, and everything. Yeah, you did. You told me that. Yeah. Still time. You're gonna remember that. You were my- Still time... the only AJ. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:58
  Thank you. I'll get, w- Yeah... I'll get, get cracking. Yeah. Um, AJ, so people should sign up for the Small Ball newsletter and subscribe to the podcast. Absolutely. What else- Yeah... could they be doing?
• 1:04:07
  You have a book coming out. Wouldn't even talk about that. Uh, fine. Whatever. Just- But is there like- I, I kinda, it's a hard thing to do, as you know, right? Yeah.
• 1:04:15
  So, I mean, but yeah, read my Slate columns and listen to my podcast or according to, you know, the people that are funding the podcast, you should watch it on YouTube, which is crazy. Mm. Yeah. You know?
• 1:04:28
  Which I don't understand, but that is apparently the future, then everyone has to get used to it, but.
• 1:04:33
  Well, I just wanna say, I think the landscape of recovery is so much different than it was 15 years ago, 10 years ago, and a big part of that is you just kinda blurring the lines a little bit and breaking it down more and making it more accessible to everyone.
• 1:04:47
  Thank you. And, uh- It's great... I just, I'm proud of you. And so if I was your child, I'd be proud to Google you and, uh- Thank you... a, a, thank you for making- That's really nice. That really helps me...
• 1:04:55
  Peter Thiel a household name. Yeah. That is the, your main takeaway. No. Thank you for being vulnerable about that. It matters. Goes a long way. Thank you, Quinn.
• 1:05:02
  Do you guys have anything else you wanna commiserate over between your three kids and boss wives before we say goodbye? No, man, it's just, I don't know.
• 1:05:11
  I think it's just I have to remember that the, only my job to be basically just a good man, whatever, and I have to figure out what that is constantly, and basically just, you know, recalibrate all the time, and that's all I can do, right?
• 1:05:24
  Mm-hmm. That is really it. I mean, it's just, you know, I know I'm a good dad, weirdly enough, and I can say that without any level of arrogance just because I know I care, right? Mm-hmm. That's all you can do. Yeah.
• 1:05:33
  You put some thought into it, which is what I say about evil witches is if you care about being a good parent, that pretty much gets you there. That's it for this week.
• 1:05:51
  You're gonna make it. You're doing great, or you're just doing it, or just you, period. Just stop right there. But for more, you can hit subscribe right in your podcast player of choice.
• 1:06:03
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• 1:06:09
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• 1:06:18
  Head to notrightnow.show for more, or send us feedback, questions, horror stories, doxing, whatever it is, at questions@notrightnow.show.
• 1:06:29
  [laughs]