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TikTok Stars on the Politicians Begging Them for Exposure · Question Everything

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Jealousy, resentment, admiration. How to describe the way I think
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: plenty of journalists feel about a certain type of creator
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: or influencer on social media. Regular folks who've come up
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: with some kind of shtick for an interview, like eating
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: progressively spicier hot wings with an interviewee or going on
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: a date with them in a chicken shop. A bunch
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: of people have made shows like this and then blown
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: up on TikTok or YouTube or wherever. And now lots
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: of these creators have massive audiences, way bigger than many
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: news outlets. And they're scoring big interviews that journalists used
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: to get with celebrities, business people, politicians, presidential candidates.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Kamala Harris. You can name the artist.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: You win five bucks. Now politicians can go do a
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: music quiz with a friendly Instagram personality and show that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: they're a regular person like the rest of us. Stevie Wonder.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Tell me about Stevie Wonder. Well, Stevie Wonder is one
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: of the greatest musicians who has ever lived. From songs
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: in the key of life to teaching us everything we
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: need to know about superstition. And he's actually a friend.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: These productions, they aren't journalism, but they are filling a
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: space that journalism held for a long time. So many
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: people are learning about their leaders, their icons, through the
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: work of creators like this. Take New York City mayoral
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: candidate Zoran Mamdani He's made these creators and influencers a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: core part of his campaign strategy. Sure, there was just
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: a hefty New York Times Magazine piece about him, but
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Mamdani's also going on shows like Subway Takes, where guests
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: sit with host Kareem Rama between stops on the train
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and give him a hot take. So what's your take?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I should be the mayor. What are you going to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: do about the price of matcha lattes? 100% not sure.
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: You can win this campaign if you lower the cost
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: of matelazes.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I can only make the promises I can keep. A
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: lot of people in my industry, reporters, media execs, would
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: kill for an interview to go this viral. Which is
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: why news bosses are trying to get us, journalists, to
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: be more like creators. The Wall Street Journal recently posted
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: a job listing for a talent coach to help their journalists, quote,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: build their personal brands. To basically turn Wall Street Journal
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: reporters into social media stars. I'm dealing with this too.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I am now the proud owner of a ring light
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: and a couple of those crappy wireless lav microphones that
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: go into your phone. I'm being encouraged, rightfully I think,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: by KCRW's social team to get online, to do video,
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: build a presence. They've also been pushing me to get
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: booked on these shows. They really want me to get
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: on Subway Takes. Anyway, today on our show, we have
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: a group of some of the most popular, eclectic TikTok
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: and YouTube creators. Together, they have more than 25 million
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: followers online. A single video from one of these creators
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: can get 50 million views. They all started off by
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: just talking to regular people, man on the street. But
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: now they've hosted Kamala Harris, Zoran Mamdani, Elizabeth Warren, Mark Zuckerberg,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Chapel Roan, Rihanna, Zoe Kravitz, Scarlett Johansson, Ed Sheeran, Jimmy Fallon,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Elon Musk's estranged daughter. As a TikTok user and consumer
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: of these videos myself, I've wanted to know more about
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: the making of these things and how influencers approach this
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: huge power they now have. Do they worry about ethics?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Do they give final sign-off on their content over to
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: these celebs and politicians? Who has control? When is money
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: changing hands? And then as a journalist, I'm trying to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: figure out what our relationship with social media creators should be.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: We share the same spaces now. We're all in your
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: feeds together, jammed up next to each other, and these
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: are the people that are often winning attention. What can
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: we learn from them? I've wondered if there's some way
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: or creators who snag these interviews to wield their massive
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: reach and access to serve journalistic ends. Though maybe that's
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: just naive of me. So you have politicians, some of
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the most powerful people in the world, begging, pleading to
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: get on your shows. You're turning them down.
• 4:06
  Speaker 5: Because we're not asking them hard-hitting questions.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I know. From KCRW and Placement Theory, this is Question Everything.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: I'm Brian Reed. Stick around.
• 4:25
  Speaker 6: Is the sparkling wine wine, or.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Is it Mike?
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the juice.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: We invited our social media stars to our normal spot,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the wine shop in Brooklyn.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Look it up.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: One of them was coming straight from an interview he
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: did with Mariah Carey. Another was coming from being a
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: guest on Subway Takes that day. We settled at the bar.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: How did you come up with your gimmicks? Like, what's
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the origin of the story?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: I'm joking.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: And I mean it in the best use of that word.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: That's a good one.
• 4:54
  Speaker 7: Well, I made content online for seven years before anything
• 4:57
  Speaker 7: really worked.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: We have with us Caleb Simpson. He's been around for
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: a long time, huge on TikTok and YouTube. I get
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: the sense he's kind of an OG in this world.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: People have referred to him as an algorithm hacker. He's
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: so skilled at figuring out what goes viral. This chick
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: he's known for, he goes out on the street and
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: he asks people... Hi, excuse me.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: How much do you pay for rent in New York?
• 5:19
  Speaker 7: $ 16.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: 50. And then Caleb gets these strangers... Take him right
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: up to their apartment and show him around.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Come on, let's go. Oh, this has a warm, cozy vibe. Yeah,
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: I like it. Where should we start?
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: You can see everything from right here. You don't even
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: have to walk around. It's really bright, which is why
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: we picked it.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: And you work from home?
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I have my desk open right now.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: And usually, he asks to go a step further.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Can I test out your bed?
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: He jumps in their bed.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's stiff. Super fucking stiff.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Before he hit on this apartment tour gimmick, Caleb says
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: he spent years on YouTube just throwing shit against the wall,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: trying this or that stunt. So one day he thought,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: you know, no one else will be dumb enough to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: ask strangers to take them up to their apartments just
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: off the street. So he gave it a go.
• 5:59
  Speaker 7: I asked like 100 people. They said, go fuck yourself.
• 6:02
  Speaker 7: What are you talking about? Eventually one person said yes.
• 6:05
  Speaker 7: And when I posted all those clips and the home tour,
• 6:08
  Speaker 7: they all went viral in New York City. And then
• 6:10
  Speaker 7: all their friends saw it and they're like, no, let
• 6:12
  Speaker 7: that guy in your house. And I was like, oh, OK,
• 6:14
  Speaker 7: this is different.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Caleb says he now makes $ 100, 000 a month doing these videos.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Internet star number two, Julian Shapiro Barnum.
• 6:24
  Speaker 5: I came from a theater background. I, like, wanted to
• 6:28
  Speaker 5: be a playwright and actor.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: He hosts a show called Recess Therapy where he interviews
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: kids in the park. It's like a sweet reincarnation of
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: kids say the darndest things at the risk of dating myself.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Julian's not long out of college, but during COVID, he
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: couldn't do theater. So he started making videos with strangers
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: on the street.
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: I was a really bad interviewer. But what that did
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: was it, like, got me obsessed with talking to strangers.
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: It scratched some itch to be able to walk around
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: with a microphone and a camera. Every week, I'd go
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: out with, like, my camera and my mic by myself
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: and just, like, interviewing people and interviewing kids.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: Really instantly clicked. And then I was like, this is
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: my whole life now.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: If you ever saw that super viral video known as
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Corn Kid... That was Julian. I really like corn.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: What do you like about corn?
• 7:14
  Speaker 7: Ever since I was taught that corn is real, it
• 7:19
  Speaker 7: tasted good.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: Did you think corn wasn't real?
• 7:22
  Speaker 7: But when I tried a bit better, everything changed. I
• 7:25
  Speaker 7: love corn.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Now Julian often has stars on to interview kids with him.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Also at the bar, Ananiah Williams. She hosts a show
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: called Gaydar. It's the newest of all the shows here.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: where she quizzes people with LGBTQ trivia, often related to
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: what's happening in the news, and then depending on how
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: they do, she jokingly rates them as gay, straight, or homophobic.
• 7:47
  Speaker 6: You've been doing Gaydar for a year now. We just
• 7:49
  Speaker 6: celebrated our one-year birthday.
• 7:51
  Speaker 8: Congratulations.
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: Thanks.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Congrats. And like the others, Ananiya was actually scouted by
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: a production company to host the show.
• 7:59
  Speaker 6: I've also been a content creator for a long time, too.
• 8:01
  Speaker 6: I've been doing it since the pandemic, like hosting my comedies, singing,
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: drag stuff.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Gaydar is funny. Here she is quizzing Zohra Mondani. Hi,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I'm Ananiah. This is Gaydar. Let the people know your
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: name and your pronouns. Zohran Kwame Mondani.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: He, him.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: What does WLW mean? Win, loss, win.
• 8:17
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: It's close. I like the sentiment. It means women loving women.
• 8:22
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I also agree.
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: Which queer group is currently being erased from all federal
• 8:26
  Speaker 6: government websites?
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Trans people.
• 8:28
  Speaker 7: Yes, they are.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Last but not least at the bar, Jack Coyne, host
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: of the TikTok show Trackstar.
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: The reason we started that show is because music is universal.
• 8:39
  Speaker 8: Like, anyone can talk about music, because everyone likes something,
• 8:43
  Speaker 8: some sort of song.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Trackstar is also a game show. Jack meets people on
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: the street, puts headphones on them, plays them songs, and
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: they keep guessing the song and the artist, doubling their
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: money each time until they get it wrong.
• 8:56
  Speaker 8: But, like, there was always the risk that someone could, like,
• 8:58
  Speaker 8: really run up the score, and.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: We'd be fucked, because we'd have to pay them.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: What's the most you've ever had to give?
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: $ 20, 000.
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: Ooh.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: To who?
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: It hasn't come out yet, but it's coming soon.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Jack's the one who came straight to the shop from
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: recording this in Central Park.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: All right, before we start with the music, just introduce yourself. Hey,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: it's Mariah Carey.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Luther Vandross. Yes?
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Luther Vandross.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Are you a fan?
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: A huge fan.
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: We sang a duet together, and I sang at Wembley
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: with him.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Jack's show, Trackstar, has become a major stop for musicians
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: especially on press tours. And Jack also put out the
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: first interview with Kamala Harris after she became the Democratic
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: presidential nominee last summer, the one I played you earlier.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: This was at a time when Harris was being criticized
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: for not sitting down for interviews with journalists. Trackstar, these
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: other shows, they are part of the press circuit now,
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: right along with Rolling Stone, Vanity Fair, SNL, the legacy
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: late night shows. And they are clearly on the rise
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: while some of the old places are. well, are dying.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, Colbert's late night show just got totally canceled.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: And the night we met at the wine shop, Jimmy
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Kimmel was going through his whole ordeal, getting taken off ABC. Jack,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: the host of the music show, he says his show's
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: leanness is its power.
• 10:15
  Speaker 8: This is something that I understood before. was a competitive
• 10:18
  Speaker 8: advantage when we first started the show. It's like, it's
• 10:20
  Speaker 8: not that expensive to make YouTube videos. You don't need
• 10:23
  Speaker 8: to pay a whole staff of that many people to make,
• 10:26
  Speaker 8: essentially like when people watch Jimmy Fallon, most people watch
• 10:29
  Speaker 8: it on YouTube. And so then when you're scrolling on YouTube,
• 10:32
  Speaker 8: you're watching my show and Jimmy Fallon's show, and maybe
• 10:35
  Speaker 8: it's the exact same guest on both thumbnails.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: And it's like, which one am I going to choose?
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: The viewer doesn't really see a difference in terms of
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: like the quality of the programming, I don't think.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: For me.
• 10:46
  Speaker 6: There's a bigger thing here. I feel like I'm, like,
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: my direct community's, like, wildest dream in this regard.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: This is the host of the LGBTQ quiz show, Gaydar, Ananiya.
• 10:55
  Speaker 6: Like, to have a Black trans woman at the front
• 10:57
  Speaker 6: of a show like this means a lot to me,
• 11:00
  Speaker 6: you know?
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: And it's cool that it's me.
• 11:01
  Speaker 6: Like, I would love to have my own late night show,
• 11:04
  Speaker 6: and I would love to keep, like, building on this
• 11:05
  Speaker 6: kind of, like, idea um and like like an old
• 11:09
  Speaker 6: school late night show yeah i'm inspired by traditional entertainment
• 11:13
  Speaker 6: all the time like i think some of my biggest
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: like comedic inspirations too are like wendy williams and jimmy
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: kimmel and uh jimmy kimmel he's back tomorrow thank god
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: even z-way trevor noah like i would love.
• 11:26
  Speaker 8: To get to a point like that but i think
• 11:28
  Speaker 8: the market is saying let's the cheap shows are better.
• 11:32
  Speaker 8: Like it's not, we're getting less money from whoever has
• 11:35
  Speaker 8: the money. It's like the audience is saying, I prefer
• 11:37
  Speaker 8: watching the thing that looks like the thing that I
• 11:39
  Speaker 8: can make with my phone at home.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't want, I don't can't relate as much.
• 11:45
  Speaker 8: To the expensive cameras and the studio and the fancy lights.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Like it's much more relatable to see you sit in
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: the park.
• 11:51
  Speaker 8: Cause I could sit in the park, put myself in
• 11:53
  Speaker 8: that position because I also have the same means of production.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: It just connects with people in a different way.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: That's one of the things that you think accounts for
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: the audience's connection with what you guys do. It's like,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I can picture myself doing it.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Disagree a little bit.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Or is it more, I can picture myself being on it.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: I can picture myself being on it.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I think that ditching the studio has done wonders.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: This is Julian, who hosts the show with Kids in
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the Park, Recess Therapy.
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: It's like, oh, this is all happening in our community
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: and around us. And it's made it much more accessible.
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: Whereas if you watch a Fallon thing, that feels like
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: a million miles away.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: And I think there's something nice about feeling like it's
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: something you could like touch or see or run into.
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: It seems like all of you guys at a certain
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: point started having bigger names on the show, celebrities on
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: the show.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Who you're hearing now is Zach St. Louis, producer for
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: our show. He was behind the bar with me.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: I'm curious how that transition happened.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: And what it looks like.
• 12:47
  Speaker 8: So with Trackstar, we started getting musicians relatively early, not
• 12:53
  Speaker 8: like hugely famous musicians, but like professional musicians.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: We were reached out to, hey, do you want to
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: talk to this person? I think it was more like, yes,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: this show is about music.
• 13:02
  Speaker 8: It'll be great to talk to a professional musician because
• 13:05
  Speaker 8: they'll like have interesting insights about the songs.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I wasn't thinking about what they were gaining from it.
• 13:10
  Speaker 8: That it was part of some PR stunt that they
• 13:13
  Speaker 8: were trying to pull.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: I was so naive. I was like, oh, cool, I'll talk.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: To an artist.
• 13:18
  Speaker 8: And then the big thing was Ed Sheeran's team reached
• 13:21
  Speaker 8: out and Olivia Rodrigo's team reached out at the same time.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: And the show was not big, really.
• 13:27
  Speaker 8: Why is Ed Sheeran going to be on this small
• 13:29
  Speaker 8: internet show?
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: Why is Olivia Rodrigo going to be on this? And
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Olivia Rodrigo was like, I watched this show. I think
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: it's great.
• 13:35
  Speaker 8: That was the moment where I was like, oh, this
• 13:37
  Speaker 8: is different. But it was still months after that that
• 13:40
  Speaker 8: I started to realize that we're being used to some extent.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Say more about that.
• 13:45
  Speaker 8: By Hollywood, by record labels, by the industry, by publicists.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Do you feel.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Like it's being used or it's just like an exchange of?
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Or it's like a.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: It's a transaction.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a transaction.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Or a symbiosis.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: It's a transaction, but I don't think that it's necessarily equal.
• 14:04
  Speaker 8: Often our best episodes, our biggest episodes are non-famous people.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: So it's like we don't need to do this with
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: famous people. And the way that you were.
• 14:12
  Speaker 8: Spoken to by people in a position of power at
• 14:16
  Speaker 8: a Hollywood movie studio, it's like you're going to turn
• 14:19
  Speaker 8: this down? You're not going to talk to this person
• 14:22
  Speaker 8: to promote their movie? You're not going to comment in
• 14:25
  Speaker 8: the caption that their movie's coming out?
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: It's like, no, why would I do that? That's not
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: the point of this show.
• 14:31
  Speaker 8: The point of this show is not to promote celebrities,
• 14:34
  Speaker 8: the point of the show is to celebrate music.
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: I also think that the heart of at least my
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: show is like having people who you might not know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: up and coming musicians and up and coming comedians. Like,
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: I think that's where my show kind of like thrives
• 14:48
  Speaker 6: the most. And you made a really good point about
• 14:50
  Speaker 6: how like, sometimes the biggest names aren't the most viral videos.
• 14:55
  Speaker 6: The reason people come to the show is not because
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: of It might be because of the guests, but it's
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: about the content and about the connection that we're trying
• 15:04
  Speaker 6: to make here.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think the big names, how do you think
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: they fit in? Why have them at all if you're
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: doing fine without them? How does it fit in the album?
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: There is an exchange.
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: There's obviously an exchange, right? It's cool to say, I
• 15:17
  Speaker 6: had Chapel Road on my show. I think the exchange
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: is they get to promote their new album, music, show, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: and we get to say, we had Chapel Brown on gaydar.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I feel like there's this
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: PR world that I'm kind of aware of, and I'm
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: sure you all are more aware of, that is really
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: influencing what we see every day on our feeds, on TV. Like,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: was there a moment where you were like, oh, these
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: are like the movers kind of behind the scenes?
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: We get 30 requests a day, like famous people want
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: to be on the show.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Jack here from Trackstar.
• 15:48
  Speaker 8: And there's only so many episodes we can put out
• 15:50
  Speaker 8: at any given time. So a publicist has reached out about, hey,
• 15:54
  Speaker 8: this star is in this movie.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: Do you want to talk to them? We have this
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: date available.
• 15:58
  Speaker 8: And I'm like, if you want to do this to
• 16:00
  Speaker 8: promote your movie, it's going to cost X amount of dollars.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: This is like speaking to the publicist. Oh, you charge?
• 16:06
  Speaker 8: Since when do you charge to be on the show?
• 16:08
  Speaker 8: Because this other person who came on, you didn't charge
• 16:10
  Speaker 8: when I did it with them. what changed and it's
• 16:12
  Speaker 8: like nothing changed it's just every situation is different the
• 16:15
  Speaker 8: publicist will then say really you charge it's like well
• 16:18
  Speaker 8: how much are you charging that movie studio because you're
• 16:22
  Speaker 8: emailing me they're paying you to email me yeah so
• 16:25
  Speaker 8: like what's the difference like maybe they should stop paying
• 16:28
  Speaker 8: you and they should just pay me instead sometimes a
• 16:32
  Speaker 8: movie studio will come to you and say, we'll give
• 16:34
  Speaker 8: you $ 15, 000 to talk to this person. And you have
• 16:37
  Speaker 8: to say, we need money to pay for the rest
• 16:39
  Speaker 8: of the show.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: So yes. So it's like, it's a constant calculus. It's happening.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: How often does that happen? You're getting paid to have
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: somebody on the show?
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: Maybe once a month. Probably not even that often.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Can't wait to get there.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Are you guys all doing that?
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: No.
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: I've done it a couple times when it's like, Netflix
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: is promoting like, Rachel Zegler's new animated film.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Caught up. So yes, I have.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: That's hilarious.
• 17:11
  Speaker 6: Also, it's transphobic to put me on this goddamn stool.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: We're all on stool.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: I'm kidding. Caleb, do you have any like very awkward
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: stories from, like, weaseling your way into someone's apartment?
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's all awkward and weird.
• 17:26
  Speaker 7: Just stopping somewhere on the street and asking them to
• 17:28
  Speaker 7: go in their home is, like, the weirdest thing you
• 17:30
  Speaker 7: could ever do.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: Try it sometime.
• 17:32
  Speaker 8: Sometimes I've seen one or two where, like, the sexual
• 17:36
  Speaker 8: tension is so high.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I was actually going to ask you that. People always
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: think that about you.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: Don't look at me like that. You know it's true.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: People put it on him.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: They put it on me. They put it on me.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: I'm like, if you were in the room.
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: He has a je ne sais quoi about him, but
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: I don't think there's actual sexual tension.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I would sign on to that show.
• 17:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah, there's not.
• 17:54
  Speaker 8: But come on, you play into it in the edits, too,
• 17:56
  Speaker 8: because you know it's good for the show.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: No, I've never done that. What are you talking about?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: I edit my own videos.
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: You're like spooning with Drew Barrymore in your bed, you know?
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Well, she wanted that. Yeah, yeah.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: It was her idea.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: That was her idea, yeah, totally.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: After the break.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I have a question for you, too.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. Yeah, sure. The creators question the journalists. Welcome
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: back to the show. We're in the wine shop with
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: four TikTok creators. And this is Julian, who hosts a
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: show with kids, Recess Therapy, who says he has a
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: question for me and my producer, Zach. I guess even
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: how we've been approaching this conversation... Structurally in some kind
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: of way.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: I have a question for you, too.
• 18:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, God. Yeah, sure.
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: How is this Internet culture landing with you two? Like,
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: do you feel annoyed with it? Do you feel skeptical
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: of it?
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Critical?
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: I feel like you have a critical angle a little bit,
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: but I'm interested in, like, what you're critical of.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I feel myself pretty open to, like, Internet culture. I'm
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: interested in you guys both because I watch your stuff,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you're in my feeds, but also you reach audiences.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: And it's, like, at least adjacent to what we do
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: as journalists.
• 19:19
  Speaker 8: You know?
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Like, I'm not some hard news reporter. Like, I tell stories.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I'm interested in people. So, like, there's an instinct in
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: what you're doing that I relate to. And I'm curious
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: in what journalists can steal from you or learn from
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: you and apply to our work. But, like, for instance, like,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: we would never let someone pay us to be on
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: our show. Like, that's just, like, a no-no. Like, it almost, like,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just, like, oh, my God. Like, what are you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: doing when you talk about that? And so I'm trying to, like, navigate, like,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: There's crossover here. There's stuff to learn from you guys.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: I wasn't, I wasn't, didn't mean to point so hard. No,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: it's fine.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Like, do any of you ever see your work as
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: journalistic as adjacent to journalism? Does like the idea of
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: journalism ever come into your work?
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: There've been elements of my show that I've, that I've
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: wanted to make more journalistic, like talking to kids about
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: like what's going on in the world. But then it's
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: always gone back to, like, this doesn't feel right for
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: the kids. Specifically, like, when the Uvalde shooting happened, which
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: felt so tied to the safety of kids, I felt
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: really compelled to kind of talk about that in a
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: very safe way with parents involved. And I went out
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: and we did a couple conversations and it just didn't
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: feel right. And I felt like recess therapy was not
• 20:30
  Speaker 5: the space for that conversation.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: What were you trying? I'm very curious. It's an interesting
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: thing to try.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I was just so sad.
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: There's always these times where I'm with kids and the
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: world is so awful. And they're aware of it. And
• 20:44
  Speaker 5: I want to know what they're thinking about it. Because
• 20:46
  Speaker 5: they're talking about it and they're thinking about it. But
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: then it just never feels right to put that on
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: the internet.
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: Maybe I'm not a journalist, but there is a journalistic
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: affinity on there.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: This is Ananias.
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: Because we definitely report, we report, like, legislation or news
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: that concerns the queer community every single episode. Like, anything
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: from this Supreme Court decision means this or this right
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: was in question last week because, you know, like, all
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: of these things. And I definitely think that, again, it's
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: a part of the heart of Gaydar where we, like,
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: are trying to educate everyone about queer culture and queer identity.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: history in a way that, to me, feels journalistic.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: Well, the other journalistic sort of endeavor that some of
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: you are taking on is a lot of you have
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: had politicians on your shows.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Again, this is Zach, one of our show's producers. I think,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you have. Can you all just
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: list every politician that you've had on your show? Just
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: like shout them out.
• 21:51
  Speaker 7: Zero.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: This is Caleb, the how much is your rent guy.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I guess he's the only one here who's never had
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: on a politician. Everyone else has done it. They've had
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: on Elizabeth Warren, Zora Mamdani, Kamala Harris, and local New
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: York politicians. But Caleb hasn't. Honestly, I was shocked to
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: hear about the politicians who've been clamoring to get on
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: these people's shows who they've been saying no to. This
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: is me talking to Caleb, rent guy. Okay, Nunn, you've
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: never been in a politician's house. Do you think, is
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: it because you're not interested or it's something about your
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: format doesn't jive with politicians?
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: You need to go to the White House, bro.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: I turned down a lot of politicians.
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: Yeah, me too.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: I turned down the White House.
• 22:31
  Speaker 7: I think if you want my real answer, it's like
• 22:35
  Speaker 7: the internet is savage and you do one thing and
• 22:38
  Speaker 7: you're berated for it. And I think it's just better
• 22:41
  Speaker 7: to keep it out. Why would I go and make
• 22:44
  Speaker 7: a political stance on something that deviates from the subject matter?
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: It's like I'm entertaining. That's my objective, to entertain.
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: So you've had politicians come to you and you've turned
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: them down?
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: So many, yeah.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So many. Tell me some of them.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: Well, there's a man that talks like this, and he
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: likes to do stuff, you know.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: For the health care system. That was Bernard.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: Bernard.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Bernard.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: No, not Bernard.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Are you talking about Bernie Sanders?
• 23:11
  Speaker 7: No one knows.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: RFK.
• 23:13
  Speaker 7: RFK.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: The health care system.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Got it. Jesus. I didn't think the impression was that bad.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: It was a departure.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: It was a departure. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait. When RFK Jr.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: was running for president, he wanted you to come?
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Did you consider it at all or you were just like,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: talk me through that came in. You were like, what?
• 23:35
  Speaker 7: It came in and there's people around me who are like,
• 23:37
  Speaker 7: this will be good.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: This will be fun.
• 23:39
  Speaker 7: And then I look at them wide-eyed and I'm like,
• 23:42
  Speaker 7: do you want to make money this year? Do you
• 23:44
  Speaker 7: want to pay for my mom who I support? Do
• 23:48
  Speaker 7: I want to pay rent? We might always say yes
• 23:50
  Speaker 7: to this. We might be saying no to that. So
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: what you want.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: To do here?
• 23:54
  Speaker 7: And I'm like, also, I don't know much about this
• 23:56
  Speaker 7: guy and like what his objectives are, any of this stuff.
• 23:59
  Speaker 7: Do I want to take a stance right now?
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: That's why I said no to Eric Adams. I said
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: no to the president.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Caleb's talking about President Biden. When did the president come
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to you?
• 24:07
  Speaker 7: I mean, you saw the president all over the internet
• 24:09
  Speaker 7: on TikTok and stuff.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: Remember that whole season?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: You're talking about the fall, basically, like last fall.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: We almost had Kamala in elementary school, and it was
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: an intense process. We had to have snipers on rooftops,
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: but we didn't end up doing it.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: This is Julian here, the kid show host.
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: Like I said no to the White House like three
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: or four times.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: You're talking about the Biden White House?
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, no. Trump has never rejected me.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: Biden was desperate to like be liked by the youth,
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: but I was so horrified by like the foreign policy
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: at the time that I felt like I just couldn't,
• 24:51
  Speaker 5: I didn't even want to be in the same room
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: or like around that. But then recently, Zoran, who I
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: had done something with that was without kids, he asked
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: to come on my show and I said no. I said,
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: but I would host an in-person event with you. He
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: and Elizabeth Warren were doing a thing about universal childcare.
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: And I was like, this feels like... so exactly the right.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Type of thing to talk to kids about.
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: So we just talked to them about like what they
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: thought makes a good leader and like what they would
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: do if they were in charge.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And we didn't like say anything about policy.
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: Um, but the caption was like, you know, we have
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: these on and they're one universal childcare for all, like,
• 25:31
  Speaker 5: you know, for more information on this website.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: And that felt like I wholeheartedly support that.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting. I feel like I'm hearing something totally
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: different when I hear you guys talk. So you have politicians,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: some of the most powerful people in the world, begging,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: pleading to get on your shows. You're turning them down. Meanwhile,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: legacy news outlets, independent news organizations like us are putting
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: in requests. We try to get Trump on the show.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Because we're not asking them hard-hitting questions.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Could we not team up or could you guys not
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: take it upon yourselves to trojan horse in there like
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: some journalism.
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: I would do that i think about donald trump all the.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Time this is jack who hosts the music show.
• 26:14
  Speaker 8: Like if i would do it if i was asked
• 26:17
  Speaker 8: what i would do and i think i think i
• 26:19
  Speaker 8: lean towards no but i also huge part of me
• 26:22
  Speaker 8: says i should do this and trojan horse in some
• 26:24
  Speaker 8: journalism and ask some hard-hitting questions in a way that
• 26:27
  Speaker 8: was sort of unexpected.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: I think that there's a huge opportunity to do that.
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: I think it would be very hard to pull off, though.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I think it would get barred pretty hard.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: By who?
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Because are people signing release forms when they.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: Go to the show? What if Doron came on the show?
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: On Dragstar.
• 26:43
  Speaker 8: And I played... Bruce Springsteen. And he was like, man,
• 26:46
  Speaker 8: Bruce Springsteen is the best.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: I'm like, but he's a billionaire. I thought you hate billionaires.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And Trojan horse.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: That's a great one. You should do this. Has he
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: reached out to you?
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we might do something.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Can you try this? I want to see what happens.
• 26:59
  Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: It's great.
• 27:00
  Speaker 8: I hope he's not watching and he's prepared his answer. I, um,
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: and excuse me, I'm getting a little, um, I'm feeling
• 27:09
  Speaker 8: a little emotional about this.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: This is Ananiah from Gaydar jumping in. Really looking at
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: all of us, all of us cis white men, after
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: just listening for a while over on the end of
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the bar. There's something about.
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: The choice of making your show political that I don't
• 27:28
  Speaker 6: really get. So I'm having a hard time relating to
• 27:30
  Speaker 6: this conversation because... The show inherently, Gaydar, is inherently political
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: and something to be debated about because at the helm
• 27:40
  Speaker 6: of it, we have a black trans woman. Like wherever
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: I go and however I represent the show, my identity
• 27:46
  Speaker 6: is in question. So like when I hear like about
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: not having politicians on the show, totally makes sense. But
• 27:54
  Speaker 6: something doesn't jive right with me about the potential of
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: both I guess, political ideologies coming to your show to
• 28:04
  Speaker 6: be platformed in that way. And by that, I mean, like,
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: I would never have Donald Trump on my show. He
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: would never want to come on my show. And it's
• 28:15
  Speaker 6: a privilege to have the choice to say no in
• 28:19
  Speaker 6: the first place.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's a little.
• 28:21
  Speaker 6: Bit of jealousy that I don't really get the choice
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: to have a political show or not. But I also
• 28:28
  Speaker 6: think it's a matter of just like acknowledging the state
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: of the country or the world.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: That we're in. Like whatever video I.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Post is going to be a political thing.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: You're under attack. Your community is under attack by Donald Trump.
• 28:48
  Speaker 8: Is there not some opportunity or somewhere in desire to
• 28:52
  Speaker 8: be like, I can confront this.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: But he wouldn't.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: And he wouldn't.
• 28:55
  Speaker 8: But is there somewhere, some part in the back of
• 28:58
  Speaker 8: your head was like, what if I said this thing
• 29:01
  Speaker 8: to his face and everyone could see that? Yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: That's so fucking hard. But also.
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: I also think we need to, between the two of us,
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: we need to acknowledge one of us has been conditioned
• 29:10
  Speaker 6: to try to meet a middle ground. You know, there
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: is no middle ground if trans people exist or not
• 29:16
  Speaker 6: for me, you know? And I think that if I
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: were to ask Donald Trump that question, it would be
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: redundant and I would.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Be, honestly be putting myself in more danger than not.
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: Like, let's take, for example, that I do get to
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: ask Donald Trump a Trojan horse question if I'm able
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: to call him out. And let's say the video gets posted.
• 29:37
  Speaker 6: Now I am actively.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: a.
• 29:40
  Speaker 6: Target for every single person who has a conservative, violent
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: standpoint on my identity. And there's a debate online about like,
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: why can't we be friends if you're Republican, if I'm
• 29:54
  Speaker 6: a Democrat, if I'm a liberal and you're a conservative?
• 29:57
  Speaker 6: And it's because some of these things that are humanitarian
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: issues don't really fall in between the binary. It's either
• 30:04
  Speaker 6: yes or no on certain things, in my opinion.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: There's a debate in journalism as well about even doing
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: a journalistic interview with someone who espouses hate. Is that platforming?
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: That's a really good point, actually. Or is that serving
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: a purpose? And it's a debate all of us have
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: had and go back and forth on. Generally, I think
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: my opinion has always been like doing journalism does not
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: equal platforming if you're actually doing journalism. But it can
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: be a gray area, especially as we go venture into
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: short-term videos. Our stuff feels like platforming no matter what.
• 30:38
  Speaker 5: It does.
• 30:38
  Speaker 8: Well, Kamala Harris was on the show, and that was
• 30:40
  Speaker 8: the first interview that she did when she was the nominee.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: That was the very first one was on your show? Yeah.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: This is Jack again, the host of The Music Show.
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: I was platforming Kamala Harris purposely, knowingly. I wanted to
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: platform her because I supported her. I wanted her to
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: win the election.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Got it. So I was like, this is great.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: If I can do anything. If this is one of
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: the things that I can do to contribute, I'm all in.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Like, let me do that. But wait, but wait. Does
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: platforming automatically a benefit for the politician? Like, I would
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: argue that it might have done better to see her
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: being pushed and actually have an engage with something like
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: it might have.
• 31:15
  Speaker 8: Well, I tried.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Like, that makes a politician better. I tried.
• 31:18
  Speaker 8: And one of my concerns was after I did the
• 31:21
  Speaker 8: interview is I was like, that was weak.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: It was like she was so protected and guarded. It's
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: like you're talking about music. You're not even talking about
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: anything that complicated.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: That's not in the cut, though. I don't remember.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: It was just short and tight and, like, very fast.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: And it was, like, in the moment. Like, don't ask
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: her this.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Do this.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Do this.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: And it was, like, relax.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: I know how to do this show. What did you
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: wish you could have asked her? What did you try
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: to ask her that got kind of bounced out?
• 31:42
  Speaker 8: I just think, like, the whole interview was, like, maybe
• 31:45
  Speaker 8: three minutes long. Like, you basically saw the whole thing.
• 31:48
  Speaker 8: And it was like, okay, move on.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Move on.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: We're going to use you.
• 31:52
  Speaker 8: To get this little thing. I think I would have
• 31:55
  Speaker 8: wanted to have a much more earnest conversation. Like, what
• 31:57
  Speaker 8: do you actually listen to? Like, open up for a
• 31:59
  Speaker 8: second and talk about your life and talk about your
• 32:01
  Speaker 8: experience with music instead of like.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Okay, move on. Next, next, next, next.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: You gave her all the answers beforehand?
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: No. No?
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: No, I did not. Okay.
• 32:10
  Speaker 8: Okay. No.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: No, I think what you're describing is really telling. Exactly.
• 32:13
  Speaker 8: We also had three teams. She had her campaign team.
• 32:17
  Speaker 8: She had Biden's campaign team. She had her staff. There
• 32:20
  Speaker 8: was just like a million people in the room.
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: Kareem Rama, who does Subway takes, had Kamala on. And
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: her take was... Bacon.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: Should be a spice.
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: He killed it, right?
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: She killed it.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: She killed it.
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: I read an interview where Kareem said that it was
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: mutually decided.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Apparently, Kamala Harris recorded a segment on subway takes during
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: the campaign, but it never ran. And then after she lost,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: the story of it came out that her unaired take
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: was bacon should be a spice.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: She said that bacon should be a spice was too divisive.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: Of a thing to say. It was what her team thought.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: No, no, that was that was the second take. There
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: was another take. There was a more controversial take.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: And she showed up to do it.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: And then they pulled it and they said, actually, there's one.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I didn't know Harris had actually come up with two
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: subway takes that didn't air. Do you know what it was,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the original one? Is that public?
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: The narrative that's public is that the pre-agreed-upon take was
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: that she was going to say people shouldn't take off
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: their shoes on airplanes, but that her staff thought that
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: that was too classist or something. And then her make-up
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: take was the bacon should be a spice. But there
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: was probably one in between.
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: I just don't think they would let us ask anything hard-hitting.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: You guys said something here that I do have a
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: question about. When the politicians come on your show, do
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: they get say over what runs?
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: I gave them a courtesy edit and they had no notes.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: But if it came down to it, legally, would you
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: be able to say, like, sorry, I'm not changing that?
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: I mean, no, I don't think, I mean, I don't,
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: I think legally they could stop me from posting it.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Okay. I really did go into this conversation wondering if
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: there was a way to make what this group is
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: doing more journalistic without killing the vibe to maybe even
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: join forces in some way, but I left not so
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: hopeful about that idea. It's no shade. They have their place.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I like what they're doing. We have ours. And we'll
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: just keep duking it out for eyeballs and influence. You
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: can't name a news anchor. Like, I could not name
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: a news anchor. Wait, really? I don't know if I could.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Anderson Cooper. Oh, okay. Anderson Cooper. He's like me.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Don Lemon. Yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Now a creator, actually. That's true. That's true.
• 34:31
  Speaker 7: That's why I honestly tell people if they want to
• 34:33
  Speaker 7: go into journalism, say don't. Whatever you want to talk about,
• 34:36
  Speaker 7: learn how to make it yourself. You'll make more money
• 34:39
  Speaker 7: and tell the story you want to tell.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks again to Caleb Simpson, Julian Shapiro, Barnum, Ananiah Williams,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: and Jack Coyne for being game to join our show
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: about journalism, for being open with us. I am on
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Instagram doing my social media thing at BriHreed. That's B-R-I-H-R-E-E-D.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: And I'm on TikTok. at brihreid1. Check me out there.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: By the way, our fact checker wanted me to point
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: out to you that while Forbes did declare Bruce Springsteen
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: to be a billionaire in 2024, Bruce has said he
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: is not, in fact, a billionaire. Don't want to unnecessarily
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: smear the boss. Today's episode was produced by Zach St.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Louis and Brendan Baker with help from Emily Malterre. It
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: was edited by Jen Kinney. Booking by Mara Davis. Sound
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: engineering by Gabe Quiroga. Thanks as always to Bibber &
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Bell Wine Shops Robin Semien and I are the executive
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: producers of Question Everything. Kevin Sullivan is our managing editor.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Our team also includes producer Sophie Casis and associate producer
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Kevin Shepard. This episode was fact-checked by Marisa Robertson-Textor and
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: sound designed and mixed by Brendan Baker. Our music is
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: by Matt McGinley. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seipel,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Tejal Jumeirah, Natalie Hill, and Jennifer Farrow. Today, we say
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: goodbye to our associate producer, Emily Malterre, who's been with
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: us since the beginning of the show. We're sad, but
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: also excited for her next chapter. We wish her the best.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.