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Was Phoebe really a deacon? with Denny Burk · The Becket Cook Show

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  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your
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  Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry,
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  Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support
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  Speaker 2: star rating.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, guys, welcome to the show today. My guest is
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  Speaker 3: Denny Burke, and he has a new book out called
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  Speaker 3: Merror Complementarianism Male and Female in the Image of God.
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  Speaker 3: And Denny's been on my show before. He is the
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  Speaker 3: professor of Biblical Studies at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
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  Speaker 3: He's also the president of cal on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,
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  Speaker 3: and he's a preaching pastor and he's written several books,
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  Speaker 3: including this, and I'm excited to get into it because
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  Speaker 3: it's this is a really good read and we're going
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  Speaker 3: to answer a lot of questions about complementarianism, but we're
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  Speaker 3: also going to talk about women head coverings. We're going
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  Speaker 3: to talk about how affirming LGBTQ always goes through an
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  Speaker 3: egalitarianism worldview first, and we're going to talk about who
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  Speaker 3: can preach on Sunday mornings, who can teach Sunday school,
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  Speaker 3: who can teach in seminary, who can serve as deacons.
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  Speaker 3: We're going to talk about Phoebe and what that was
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  Speaker 3: all about, and many many other things. But first awards
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  Speaker 3: from our sponsor. So please welcome Denny Burke.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you very much, glad to be here.
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  Speaker 3: Good to have you back again. I don't know you've
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  Speaker 3: been on a couple of times, maybe or at least once, right.
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  Speaker 1: I have I have.
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  Speaker 3: So mere complimentarianism, male and female in the image of God.
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  Speaker 3: This is I As I said in the intros, it's
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  Speaker 3: a fascinating reader. I was really anxious to read it
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  Speaker 3: because I wanted to get like the full picture of it.
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  Speaker 3: Although this, I mean, this is mere complementarianism. It's not
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  Speaker 3: like everything you could say about it. But what do
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  Speaker 3: you mean by mere complimentarianism?
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  Speaker 1: Hey, listen, Thanks for having me on here, and thank
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  Speaker 1: you so much for talking about the book. The reason
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  Speaker 1: I'm talking about mere complementarianism is because I think a
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  Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of confusion out there about what
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  Speaker 1: complementarianism is and so complimentary for those of you who
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  Speaker 1: are tuning in and you know, maybe you've listened to
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  Speaker 1: you Know Beckett's podcast before and you've heard him talk
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  Speaker 1: about complimentarism. But for anybody, he hasn't ever heard this before.
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  Speaker 1: Complimentarianism is just a doctrine that talks about how men
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  Speaker 1: and women relate to each other, first of all in
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  Speaker 1: the church and the home, but I believe even beyond
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  Speaker 1: the church and the home, and complementarianism is the more
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  Speaker 1: traditional biblical view because it teaches that while men and
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  Speaker 1: women are equally created in the image of God, and
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  Speaker 1: they have equal access to Christ and the benefits of
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  Speaker 1: redemption through the Spirit, they are nevertheless real differences between
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  Speaker 1: male and female, and those differences have implications for the
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  Speaker 1: way we live and what roles we inhabit in this world.
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  Speaker 1: In marriage, that means that husbands are the head of
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  Speaker 1: their home, and they're supposed to lead and protect and
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  Speaker 1: to provide for their wives, and their wives are supposed
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  Speaker 1: to be serving as a helper and as a nurturer.
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  Speaker 1: Those are the main roles, and so they're different roles,
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  Speaker 1: they're complimentary roles, and we call it complementarianism because not
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  Speaker 1: because they're at odds with each other, but because they
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  Speaker 1: complete each other. So it's complainment, not compliment with an eye,
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  Speaker 1: but compliment with an e. Because male and female complete
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  Speaker 1: each other not only in the sexual bond, but also
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  Speaker 1: in the way that they relate to each other. There's
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  Speaker 1: a social complementarity that's there as well, and you see
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  Speaker 1: it in the home. You also see it in the
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  Speaker 1: church because God calls men and women different roles there too,
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  Speaker 1: and the church norms are different for male and female.
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  Speaker 1: God only calls qualified men to service as pastors and
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  Speaker 1: to be the main preachers in a church, and so
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  Speaker 1: those are kind of your basics of complementarianism. But the
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  Speaker 1: reason I wrote this book was because I think there's
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  Speaker 1: a lot of misunderstanding about what complementarianism is. And I
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  Speaker 1: did not title this book mere complementarianism because I want
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  Speaker 1: people to think of it as minimal complementarianism. That's not
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  Speaker 1: the reason I'm doing it at all. The reason I'm
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  Speaker 1: calling it that is because as I've observed debates over
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  Speaker 1: the last you know, many years that I've been writing
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  Speaker 1: and thinking about this issue, I've seen a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people sort of distort complementarianism by either saying too much
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  Speaker 1: or saying too little. By that, I mean sometimes people
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  Speaker 1: are adding things to complementarianism that really don't have anything
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  Speaker 1: to do with the essence of the doctrine. And so,
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  Speaker 1: you know, one you know, very prominent example of this
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  Speaker 1: is the doctrine that sometimes called e f S or
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  Speaker 1: the eternal functional Subordination of the Son, which is a
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  Speaker 1: certain view of the trinity, very controversial about ten years
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  Speaker 1: tiers or ten years ago, blew up online and it's
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  Speaker 1: about the pre incarnate son submission to the Father. How
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  Speaker 1: that relates to the way we think about gender roles.
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  Speaker 3: So wait, does that is that? Does that mean that
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  Speaker 3: Jesus was always submitting to the Father in all eternity?
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  Speaker 3: Is that what it's so?
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  Speaker 1: E f S would hold to a version of that.
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  Speaker 1: That's correct. They're actually the people who would hold the
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  Speaker 1: e f S are They're not all the same. But
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  Speaker 1: there is in some sense a pre incarnate submission of
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  Speaker 1: the son to the Father. And it became very controversial
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  Speaker 1: as a trendy tarian matter, and I think some of
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  Speaker 1: some of the things that have been said along these
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  Speaker 1: lines actually do to depart from a classical way of
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  Speaker 1: putting trinitarianism. And so you have a lot of critics
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  Speaker 1: of complementarianism who say, oh, if e F S is complementarianism,
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  Speaker 1: because you've got you know, First Corinthians eleven three talking
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  Speaker 1: about Christ being the head of man, man being head
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  Speaker 1: of the woman, God being the head of Christ, and
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  Speaker 1: so therefore this is a trinitarian issue and you have
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  Speaker 1: to hold the e F S to be a complementarian.
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  Speaker 1: That's actually not true, that complementarianism is not dependent upon
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  Speaker 1: e F S at all. It's not a fundamental to
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  Speaker 1: the belief frame at all. See if some people saying so,
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  Speaker 1: that's just one example of saying more. You have some
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  Speaker 1: people who say less, and who would say that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you can have women pastors and still be a complimentarian.
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  Speaker 1: They would say that you could have women being the
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  Speaker 1: main preachers in a church and you could still be complementarian,
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  Speaker 1: and these would be your you know, soft complementarians. And
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  Speaker 1: I think that's saying less than what complementarianism is. What
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  Speaker 1: I'm trying to assert is not some kind of an
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  Speaker 1: Aristotelian mean between two of these, I'm not trying to
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  Speaker 1: give you. Okay, there's here, here's really cold, here's really hot.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you some you know, the poor
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  Speaker 1: yeah loke, or that's not what it is. Mir What
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  Speaker 1: I mean by mirror is I just want to say
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  Speaker 1: what the Bible says, and I just want to be
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  Speaker 1: faithful to what Scripture says. And there was actually a
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  Speaker 1: doctrinal proposition in nineteen eighty seven that almost forty years
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  Speaker 1: ago called the Danverse Statement, which articulated complementarian doctrine. And
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  Speaker 1: so when you think about complementarianism, some people think of
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  Speaker 1: it like a sociological movement or kind of like a
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  Speaker 1: vibe or something. It's actually a doctrinal proposition. And the
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  Speaker 1: word complementarianism was coined by a group of people who
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  Speaker 1: who wrote the Danverse Statement so that they would have
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  Speaker 1: a one word way of referring to that doctrine. And
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  Speaker 1: so what I'm saying mere complementarianism is is Danverse. It's
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  Speaker 1: the doctrinal proposition articulated in Danvers, and Danvers actually is
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  Speaker 1: a lot more thorough going and a lot more substantial
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  Speaker 1: than a lot of soft complementarians give it credit for.
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  Speaker 1: And really then a lot of biblical patriarchy people give
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  Speaker 1: it credit for. So I'm trying to argue for mere complementarianism,
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  Speaker 1: which is a robust form of male female difference is
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  Speaker 1: taught in scripture and then seeing how that's lived out
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  Speaker 1: in all of life.
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  Speaker 3: So comp the term complimentarianism wasn't coined until nineteen eighty seven, correct, Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: And what why did the danverse statement need to be
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  Speaker 3: written in the first place.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, what was going on in the nineteen seventies
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  Speaker 1: and eighties is that within North American evangelicalism, especially in
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  Speaker 1: the United States, you started to see a really strong
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  Speaker 1: drift towards Christian feminism. Forms of Christian feminism, which you know,
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  Speaker 1: really was a totalizing view over all of life, but
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  Speaker 1: it specifically had reference to how people function in churches,
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  Speaker 1: and you see you started to see women pastors, women preachers.
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  Speaker 1: You started to see the teaching that husbands and wives
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  Speaker 1: were basically interchangeable in their roles. There was no one
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  Speaker 1: called to be head, no one called to be helper,
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  Speaker 1: and so you had this feminist perspective and this was
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  Speaker 1: this is a direct consequence of second wave feminism that
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  Speaker 1: was going on in the wider culture, and you saw
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  Speaker 1: it having influence on evangelicalism, and you saw these doctrines
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  Speaker 1: being shifted because of this. Now, what happened was was
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  Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, there was a group of people
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  Speaker 1: who got together who realized, we need to we need
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  Speaker 1: to have a robust articulation of what the Bible says
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  Speaker 1: in the face of the second wave feminist error, like
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  Speaker 1: what does the Bible say about these things? And so
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  Speaker 1: two men in particular, but there were others, John Piper
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  Speaker 1: and Wayne Gruden, came together and said we need to
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  Speaker 1: pull together some people and put together a confessional standard
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  Speaker 1: that reflects what the Bible teaches about these things in
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  Speaker 1: the face of second wave feminist error. And that's where
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  Speaker 1: the Danverse Statement came from. And it's called the Danver
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  Speaker 1: Statement because they finished it in Danvers, Massachusetts. They just
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  Speaker 1: named it after the place where they were. But that's
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  Speaker 1: what it's called. And it articulates the doctrine that I
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  Speaker 1: told you just moments ago. But that's why they needed
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  Speaker 1: it. It was a response to second wave feminism.
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  Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. And why
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  Speaker 3: not use the term biblical patriarchy?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that was considered at the time. You
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  Speaker 1: can read all of the discussions. The reason that people
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  Speaker 1: did not use the term patriarchy was because patriarchy. I
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  Speaker 1: talk about this in the book in an appendix. Maybe
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  Speaker 1: you don't agree with it, but here I have friends
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  Speaker 1: that disagree with me about this. But the term patriarchy
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  Speaker 1: was actually a term that was coined by feminists. So
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  Speaker 1: the term patriarch is in the Bible, right, you see it,
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  Speaker 1: look of accent elsewhere. But patriarch is a Bible word.
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  Speaker 1: But the word patriarchy was the coinage of Kate Millet,
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  Speaker 1: who was a second wave feminist in the nineteen seventies,
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  Speaker 1: and she coined that term to refer to abuse and misogyny,
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  Speaker 1: in other words, the illegitimate power and authority of men.
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  Speaker 1: And so the word patriarchy and you can look go
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  Speaker 1: look at the Google n gram viewer of the term patriarchy.
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  Speaker 1: It'll take you all the way back into the fifteen
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  Speaker 1: hundreds English works. In the fifteen hundreds. You don't see
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  Speaker 1: the use of patriarchy go into any kind of like
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  Speaker 1: vernacular usage until the nineteen sixties and seventies. And so
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  Speaker 1: feminists were the ones who coined this term, and that's
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  Speaker 1: been the dominant use of the term in our culture.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's why the complementary and said, we don't
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  Speaker 1: want to use a term like that.
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  Speaker 3: Well, why couldn't we just take the word back because
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  Speaker 3: the word from the feminists.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you said back. That would presume that the word
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  Speaker 1: was ever in use amongst them, like in other words, nobody.
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  Speaker 1: There were no Christians who were describing traditional gender roles
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  Speaker 1: as patriarchy before the nineteen sixties and seventies. That's not
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  Speaker 1: how the term was used. You would see a little
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  Speaker 1: bit of the term. You would see there's sparse usage
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  Speaker 1: of the term, and a lot of times it would
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  Speaker 1: be used of an ecclesiastical contexts of like patriarchs and
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  Speaker 1: their ruling, a patriarch ruling like a patriarchy in that sense,
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  Speaker 1: but nothing like biblical gender roles. So but you know,
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  Speaker 1: here I say this in the book, there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: of overlap between a robust complementarianism and what a lot
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  Speaker 1: of the people who use that term are are arguing.
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  Speaker 1: I do think it's a prudential question of what's the
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  Speaker 1: best way to communicate to people what you're trying to say.
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  Speaker 1: And I've landed that, you know, I don't think patriarchy
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  Speaker 1: is the most useful. It could be more that if
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  Speaker 1: they really wanted to reclaim the term, I said it too,
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  Speaker 1: reclaim we never had it to begin with. If they
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  Speaker 1: really wanted to claim the term, I think that the
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  Speaker 1: best thing that they could do is write down a
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  Speaker 1: doctrinal proposition, write down a confession of what it is
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  Speaker 1: that would help. And so, as far as I know,
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  Speaker 1: I've not seen them do that. There is no there
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  Speaker 1: is no consensus statement on what they mean by biblical patriarchy.
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  Speaker 1: And so you've got if you look at the world
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  Speaker 1: of biblical patriarchy and you look at all the people
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  Speaker 1: who use that term, you've got all the way you know,
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  Speaker 1: people on one end who are just basically robust complementarians,
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  Speaker 1: to the other end of wife's bankers, corporal punishment for wives,
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  Speaker 1: umbrellas of authority, weird stuff that have nothing to do
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  Speaker 1: with with scripture. I say, look, you could make a
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  Speaker 1: lot more you'd have a lot more clarity for your
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  Speaker 1: position if you would, you know, write it down and
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  Speaker 1: so that everybody can scrutinize it and we can talk
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  Speaker 1: about it, kind of like we did with the Danver statement.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So anyway, that's my reason why I gave you the
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  Speaker 1: reasoning why the Originally they didn't use patriarchy, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: giving you my reason now why I still prefer the
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  Speaker 1: term complementarianism.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, and before we get into the definition of egalitarianism,
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  Speaker 3: I want you just mentioned the image of God. Male
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  Speaker 3: and female were made in the image and likeness of God.
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  Speaker 3: What is your definition of the image of God, because
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  Speaker 3: I want to challenge you on that with I think
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  Speaker 3: a better definition. But tell me what the definition is.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So we're talking about Genesis chapter one, Genesis chapter two,
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  Speaker 1: but especially Genesis chapter one. We're talking about male and
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  Speaker 1: female are both created in the image of God. And
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  Speaker 1: the term that you use there in Hebrew is a
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  Speaker 1: term that means something like likeness or representation. That's what
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  Speaker 1: image means. And what's happened over the This is a
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  Speaker 1: long standing debate amongst theologians and Bible scholars as to
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  Speaker 1: in what sense do human beings have the same likeness
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  Speaker 1: and representation of God's nature? In other words, we're in
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  Speaker 1: his image and likeness, we look like him, we resemble
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  Speaker 1: him in some sense. In what sense? What is it?
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  Speaker 1: And so you have different points of view on this.
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  Speaker 1: The first point of view that I'll mention is what
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  Speaker 1: we would call more of a substantive view, which means
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  Speaker 1: there's some quality about the human being that is like God.
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  Speaker 1: The most popular quality that you will see over the
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  Speaker 1: centuries has been theologians have said, we've got reason, the
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  Speaker 1: capacity for reason. I just started the Jungle.
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  Speaker 3: Does an unborn child have the capacity for reason?
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  Speaker 1: Yes, an undeveloped one, but yes, a capacity for it.
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  Speaker 3: But an unborn child, yeah, has a capacity for reason.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. So so I talk about this in the book
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  Speaker 1: as well. But you have to you have to think
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  Speaker 1: about the difference between act and potency, right, So in
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  Speaker 1: other words, yeah, so you have to think about so
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  Speaker 1: the potential for a thing, right, is still at the
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  Speaker 1: essence of that thing, and so so a child does
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  Speaker 1: have the potency for reason, right, and so so we
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  Speaker 1: we the potential for it. So so yes, so if
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  Speaker 1: you're taking that that substantive view, you would say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: human beings are unique in this matter. I just started
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  Speaker 1: the book, uh, the Jungle Book today by Rudyard Kipling,
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  Speaker 1: and it's really fascinating. You know, the first story that
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  Speaker 1: what the animals realize about Mowgli is is wisdom. Right,
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  Speaker 1: there's this thing that makes him different from all of them.
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  Speaker 1: And so that's a long standing Christian view, the substantive view.
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  Speaker 1: But there's another view called the functional view, which says,
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  Speaker 1: you know, what we have in common with God is
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  Speaker 1: really what we do. And when you look at Genesis one,
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  Speaker 1: it says, you know, they're creating God's image, but then
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  Speaker 1: God tasks them right off the bat to rule into
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  Speaker 1: rain on his behalf. And so if you rule in rain,
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  Speaker 1: it's this function that we have in common with God
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  Speaker 1: and as rulers and you know, reigners over creation. That's
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  Speaker 1: the way we've image God. That's the functional view. And
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  Speaker 1: then there's the relational view, which is really associated with contemporary,
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  Speaker 1: more modern theologian called a guy named Carl Bart and
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  Speaker 1: there have been some others who argue that it's male
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  Speaker 1: and female in relation to one another that bear the
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  Speaker 1: image of God. That third one I don't like because
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  Speaker 1: I think it entails. Maybe some of its adherents would
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  Speaker 1: deny this, but I think it entails that a male
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  Speaker 1: by himself is not in the image of God, and
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  Speaker 1: a female by herself isn't. I do think that an
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  Speaker 1: individual female is in the image of God, and so
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  Speaker 1: it is an individual male, and so it can't be
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  Speaker 1: that they comprise the image only together. I think individual
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  Speaker 1: human being Bearscott's image, so I happen to hold to
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  Speaker 1: the structural view. I think complementarianism works with any number
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  Speaker 1: could work with structural or functional views of the image.
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  Speaker 1: It's not reliant upon a certain position of that. But
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  Speaker 1: I talk about it a little bit in the book
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  Speaker 1: because I think it's it's important.
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  Speaker 3: I well, I really I don't know what you think
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  Speaker 3: of Michael Heiser, but I really like his definition of
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  Speaker 3: the imago day and uh. He says, it's it's a
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  Speaker 3: It's neither of those options. It's none of those options.
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  Speaker 3: It is a status God gives us. So because it's
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  Speaker 3: a status that means the unborn it's a for According
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  Speaker 3: to Michael Heiser, that's the only argument to be opposed
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  Speaker 3: to abortion is because the unborn have that status of
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  Speaker 3: being made in the image of God. No, it's not
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: a potential thing. It's a status. What do you think
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: about that?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's it. I haven't read Michael Heiser's
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: view on this. I can't comment on it with I
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: can only go by what you're telling me here. But
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: what I am arguing though, does result in a status. Right,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: So whatever if you define it as a certain substance
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: or a certain function, either one of those, the result
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: is a certain status as an image bearer that gives
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: you unique dignity. Right, and just by virtue of the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: fact that you are of the species Homo sapiens. You
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: were created in the image of God and born unborn
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: or otherwise.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: And what is the definition of egalitarianism?
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: So egalitarianism would be the evangelical counterpoint to complementarianism. Egalitarianism
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: is the view that men and women, they may have
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: different plumbing, but they're basically interchangeable in every sphere of life,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: the church, home, and then you know, beyond those things.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: And so within the home, leadership is like a jump ball, right,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: whoever is faster and stronger, or however you mutually agree
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: to divvy up responsibilities. It's more of a mutualism type thing.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: It's not an ordered structure of authority and submission. And
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: they would say the same thing. Within a church. There's
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: no role within the church that is defined according to gender.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: So when Paul says I don't allow women to teach
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: or ex has authority over a man, it doesn't really
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: mean that within the church. Men and women are completely interchangeable.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: A woman could be a pastor, she could be a
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: main preacher. Everything is equal. And they will look to
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: tax like Galatians three twenty eight. That's their magna carta,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: that there's neither male nor female in Christ. We're all
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: one in Christ, and so that they view gender role
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: distinctions as a consequence of the fall and a consequence
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: of sin in the world world. And Jesus comes and
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: removes all of those, He removes the curse of the fall,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: and so everybody is equal. There's no more gender roles,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: there's no you know, ordered authority based on any kind
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: of sexual difference.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: And what what denominations generally hold to the egalitarian view.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: You'll see within there's different ways you can talk about this,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: because the Egalitarians were at one point, like in the
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: late seventies, early eighties, I think maybe maybe it was
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: just into the seventies. They were originally a part of
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: a group that was united with more mainline denominations, which
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: are you and I would recognize now as the more
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: theologically liberal denominations. Yeah, we see USA and the Episcopal Church,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: you know, all the people that are ordaining you know,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: gay bishops and stuff and doing gay marriage. Those they
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: were the Originally the egalitarians were of one piece with them,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and they were all just sort of broadly Christian feminists.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: But then it became clear that a lot of those
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: theologically liberal denominations were going to be affirming of LGBTQ issues.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: The Evangelicals, who still wanted to have a feminist position
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: broke away, And so when they broke away from them,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: they've kind of left those denominations behind. Those are still
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: functionally a galitarian, those old mainline denominations. But within evangelicalism
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: you had a group of people like a Rogier Nicole
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: and a Millard Erickson, and you could just name all
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: these theologians who wanted to hold to an errancy that
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: the Bible is perfect, doesn't have any errors in it,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: but we've misunderstood what the Bible's been saying for two
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: thousand years on the way men and women relate to
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: each other. And so they came up with a lot
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: of different reinterpretations of traditional texts of scripture to support
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: their position. And so the egalitarians. You have evangelical a
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: galleonalitarians now who will say that they hold to an errancy,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: but they're still holding to what's basically a feminist approach
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: to reading the scripture.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you you mentioned LGBTQ. You say in the
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: book that the path to affirming LGBTQ always goes through
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: egalitarianism first.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And that doesn't mean that every egalitarian becomes
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: affirming of LGBTQ. What it means is is that every
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: person who's a Christian who calls himself a Christian who
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: affirms LGBTQ at some point has become an egalitarian before that.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: That's always the first domino to fall, because the way
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you read the Scripture on these gender issues, you know,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: complementary and egalitarian issues, is going to affect the way
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: you read scripture on those other issues. And it it
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: just they seem to be of a piece. And so
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: when you see a person moving on this issue, sometimes
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: it's followed by a later affirmation of LGBTQ. Not all
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the time. You've had let's and there. I don't want
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: to misinform your listeners as if all egalitarians end up
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: affirming LGBTQ. Yeah, that's not the case. Roger and Nicole
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: never affirmed it, and he died an egalitarian. Okay, so
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: you could name a lot of people like that. I
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: will say, though their hermoneutic is unstable, it's not good,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: it's an error, and it's it doesn't give health to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: churches or to Christians individually.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: But what about concern I mean Assemblies of God, charismatics
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: and pane I.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Left them out. Yeah, I never can they.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: They're they're very conservative in all these ways, but for
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: some reason they're egalitarian. Why why is that?
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah? So within this is a very interesting phenomenon within
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: North American evangelicalism. In some ways the Pentecostal denominations have
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: set sort of parallel with that. But it is true
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: that in like Assembly of Gods and other dominations like
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: that that are more charismatic, they have it's not because
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: they're moving left in their view of the Bible. Their
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: views tend to be shaped by a certain reading of
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: what's going on in the Book of Acts. And look
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: at Acts chapter two, and it says your sons and
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: daughters will prophesy, Peter says in his sermon there right
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: after the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost, And so charismatics
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: kind of have this view of, well, look what was
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: going on right there at the beginning, sons and daughters
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: were prophesying. Therefore, this is a totally different thing from
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: what was happening in the Old Testament. And men and
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: women are now both engaged in these spiritual acts, and
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: so of course men and women are equal in the Church. Now,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I don't think that your first that you know, your
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Assembly of God folks are softening in their stance on scripture.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: So they're way different. In other words, they're getting to
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: an egalitarian position, way different than your people who were
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you know, pc USA people back in the seventies. They
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: were losing their trust in scripture, and a lot of
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: them would say, yeah, I know what Paul says. He
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: says that women have certain limitations in ministry. But you know,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: we think Paul was wrong. You're simply a God person
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: is never going to say that. They're never going to
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: say that some part of the Bible was wrong. They're
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: just going to reinterpret those texts to fit a more
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: galitarian framework. But they were coming. You know, those reinterpretations
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: have been out there. They've been there for decades now.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: They're basically a twentieth century phenomenon because they didn't really
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: exist before that. And so you know, some people have
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: criticized you know, complementarianism is a new doctrine. It was
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: invented by baby boomers in the nineteen eighties. No, it wasn't.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: This is the traditional doctrine, but it was given a
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: name but in the face of a new challenge that
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: was happening in the in the midst of the second
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: wave feminism rollout, and so but all that's to say,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the challenge was a rather new one, right, It's not
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: like these interpretations that the egalitarians have come up with
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: were ancient. Okay, nobody read these ts. I mean, just
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: go read Thomas Aquinas, go read John Calvin. They're not
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: reading the text like egalitarian's Okay, I mean, that's not
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: what's going on there.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: What's different? You mentioned soft complementarianism. What is hard complementarianism?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean these terms are a little bit fluid.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: People don't use the same terminology. So some people use
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: the phrase soft complementarianism, narrow complementarianism. What was the other one?
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: There was another one there. Other people use the term
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: hard complimentary for another the opposite view, hard or broad complementarianism.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: And basically what you're talking about is the differences between
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: people who want to be minimally complementarian and they want
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: to look at what the Bible says and you know,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: obey the letter of the law, but then push as
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: far as they can into whatever exceptions they can find.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: So your softness of complementarians will say, yeah, I see,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: and I know there's headship in the Bible. I know
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the office of pastor is limited to men, but we're
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: still going to have women pre and maybe pastoring is
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: just a gift. So maybe it's just eldering slimited to men,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: but women could be pastors because it's just a gift,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: and so we'll label women pastors. That's going on in
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of churches today. That would be your soft
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: complimentarian kind of you. They're emily, you know, what's the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: letter of the law, and I just want to stay
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: within that. And then but there's not much law, you know,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: there's not not much there. The limitations and the specifications
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: are very you know, minimal. Your hard complementarians or your
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: broad complementarians are the ones who say no, no, no, wait, wait, male,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the Bible has a lot more to say than that,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: and also nature has a lot more to say than that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: If you look at the biblical commands. The biblical commands
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: are rooted in God's design and creation and how he
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: made us as male and female. That the way he
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: made us is going to have implications for wherever you
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: find male in females that means in the home, and
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: then that you're urge and beyond. And so your hard
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: complementarians are are going to have a more thorough going
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: view of things. They're not going to be looking for loopholes.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: They're going to be, you know, gladly embracing God's unique
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: design and you know, encouraging men and women to embrace
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: that that design. So for me, that's where I see
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: it now. I use a distinction that Joe Rigney came
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: up with where he.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Talks about versus ideological.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, natural versus ideological, which means I think he's correct
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: about that. I think it's the right observation because there
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: are some people who are very you know, comfortable with
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: what the Bible and with what nature reveals about our
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: design as male and female, and that it entails certain
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: role distinctions. And so you know, if if there's a
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, some intruder breaks through
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: our front door, and I'm up in bed with my
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: wife and the kids are in bed. You know, I
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: don't look over to my wife and say, why don't
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: you go see about that? Now. There's not a Bible
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: verse that says when the intruder comes in, the husband
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: shall go down. There's not a Bible verse that says that.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: But there is in the Bible and in nature a
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: revelation of distinction between male and female, which has entailments
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: for what I do in that moment. And in that moment,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: I've got to go down and meet that threat because
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I'm the one that God has designed with a bigger
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: bone mass, more muscle mass, quicker, faster, stronger than my wife.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I'm more designed to meet that threat, and that gives
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: me the responsibility to go down and to meet that threat. Well,
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: guess what those differences are downstream from our sex to nature.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I will male puberty. My wife didn't, and it produced
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: a different being. Right. And so God's commands and his
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: expectations are fitting with nature, not contrary to it. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: so natural complementarians, or when I'm arguing for is mere
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: complementarianism recognizes that God's design is a good thing, and
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: it has implications for all of life. Soft complementarians tend
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: to not, I don't want to print paint with two
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: broad a bush. But they tend not to see that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: They tend not to press into that, and many of
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: them will resist what, you know, philosophers call gender essentialism,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: as if there is some kind of innate difference between
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: male and female that produces the different roles that we
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: inhabit in the church and the home and the rest
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: of society. Soft complimentarians tend to push against that.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Yes, and okay, in Genesis two, according to Genesis too,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: what is man's vocation? And then what is the woman's vocation?
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so in Genesis two, you've got one man, you've
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: got one woman. Everything's perfect, everything's good, And you've got
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: a marriage. And so for this cause, and man shall
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: leave his father and mother cleave to his wife, and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: too shall become one flesh. So you get that statement
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: there from Moses in Genesis two twenty four. Okay, this
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: is the first marriage, and all other marriages are supposed
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: to be patterned after this. What do you have in
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: that first marriage? Well, you've got, first of all, the
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: man created first. God gives a command to Adam to
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: cultivate and to keep the garden. Now, to keep the
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: garden means what it means, guard it, right, he has
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: a vocation of protection that's given to him before the
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: woman even gets there. So he's designed for this, this
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: this aptitude of protecting. He's also to cultivate the ground,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: which I think is even before the woman is there.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: It's a gesturing towards a provision, right, because their provision
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: for food and everything's going to come up from the ground.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: And then you see that that the man is formed
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: first and that that God gives him a vocation of
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: headship leadership with respect to his wife, and that becomes
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I think it's clear in Genesis too. I can go
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: through the reasons for that if you want, but it's
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: certainly clear in the New Testament. The New Testament writers
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: are reading the order of Creation as teaching Adam's authority
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: over his wife, and that all marriages are supposed to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: be like that. He's the authority in the relationship, he's
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: the appointed leader. So the man's vocation from the jump
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: from creation was leadership and protection and provision. He was
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: designed for that. That characterized the first marriage. It's supposed
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: to be characterizing all marriages that follow. And then similarly
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: with with Eve, she was created as a helper. It
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: says she was an aser, right, and so an aser connecto.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: So she is this helper with respect to Adam's headship
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: within the garden. And so she and she's also this
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: nurturer one who's going to be the mother of all
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the living, meaning that she is going to be the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: one who bears children. Her vocation is going to be
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: she's going to she's going to be facing the home,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: and the husband's going to be facing outside of the home.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: In terms of their their main vocation. He is going
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: to work the ground, she is going to work the home.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Now they're complementary, these jobs go together, but they're different, right.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And so you see this helping and nurturing vocation given
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: to the woman. You see this leadership, protection and provision
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: given to the man.
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you say that egalitarians have long pointed
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: to Genesis three sixteen this is post fall as evidence
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: that husbandly headship and wife submission are a consequence of
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: the fall and of sin.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, and really this is very important for egalitarians.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Egalitarians to a man believe that male and female role
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: distinctions or consequence of or headship in particular is a
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: consequence of the fall. And they're reading Genesis three sixteen,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: where after the man and the woman sin, God delivers
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: these curses, and to the woman he said, I will
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: greatly multiply your pain and childbirth. In pain, you shall
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: bring forth children. Yet your desire shall be for your husband,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: and he shall rule over you. And so they're reading
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that and they say, see, this is a part of
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: the curse, the fact that the husband is ruling over
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the wife. And this is one of the things that
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Jesus comes to undo, is the curse. It's right there
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: in the curse, the husband's ruling. The problem with that
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: point of view is that you already have male headship
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: before sin and before the curse. If you're reading Genesis
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: too carefully, you can tell that the author is clearly
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: showing you that the man is supposed to be the
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: head in this relationship. And you can see it in
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: a number of different ways. But the big one is
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: the one I mentioned earlier. It's the order of creation.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: The man is made first, and then the woman is
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: made second from the man. Every ancient person reading this
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis originally is going to recognize that
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: there's a principle of primogenitor in that. Now, this is
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: one of those ten dollars words, right, primogenitor first born.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: But you know, within human history we use the term
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: primogenitor to refer to the fact there are certain privileges
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and responsibilities that come with being the first born, so
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: usually privileges of inheritance, but then also privileges of leadership.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: That is totally the case in the Book of Genesis.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: When you read the rest of the Book of Genesis,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: primogenitor is a thing. It is all over the place.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: In fact, whenever primogenitor gets challenged, you have to explain why.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: So you remember, you know Jacob and Esau right, who
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: was the older brother there who had the primogeniture responsibility
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: for the inheritance and leadership. Well, it was a thought
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: he was first, but we read the story and we
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: find out he sold his birthright right. In other words,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: you have to explain how is it that Jacob is
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: going to become the promised child. It's going to happen
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: because this primogeniture gets reversed. When you think about the
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: twelve Tribes of Israel, the twelve tribes of Israel. Who
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: was the first son, Ruben? Who were the second two sons,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Simeon and Levi Rubin. You know, when they first took Joseph,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: the brothers wanted to kill him. Ruben says, I can't
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: do that. I can't like I'm responsible to my father.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I'm the leader here. Ruben intervenes saves Joseph. They end
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: up selling him into slavery instead of killing him. But Ruben,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: it's very clear, as the leader of his brothers. Later though,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Ruben disqualifies himself from the task, from the leadership role
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: because he goes up to his father's concubine. And in
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Genesis forty nine you can read where Moses explains that
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Ruben's not going to be the leader because he did
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: that Simon and Levi the leadership should have fallen to
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: them in succession. But both of those guys did this
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: thing where they tricked to Shechem, and you know, dishonored
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: their father, and so they were set aside. And so
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: you go Ruben, sime and Levi. Then who's that fourth son.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: It's Judah. You see the promise there in Genesis where
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: it says the scepter shall not depart from Judah nor
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: the ruler staff from between his feet, and Judah is
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: the kingly tribe, and Judah rules over his brothers from
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: then on. And then of course we get King David
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: from Judah, and we get Jesus from Judah. But all
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: of that is in Genesis. Now, if you're reading Genesis,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: you're reading about primogenitor and the explanations for why primogenitor
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: will devolve to somebody else if they get disqualified. But
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: you have to have whole narratives to explain why primogeniture
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: is being subverted. And all I'm saying is is that
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: when original readers read this, they're not reading it like
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: you and I do. They're reading it like ancient people.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: And what they read was, oh, wow, Adam was formed first,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and that happened in chapter two, and so there's a
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: headship there. You also see it in the fact that
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Adam is naming everything, including the woman, and so he
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: names all of the animals, and God had told him
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: he was going to rule over those animals. Well, a
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: part of that ruling function was naming. The woman is
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: formed from his side, and it says she's going to
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: be called Eshah woman because she was taken from ish Man.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: And even her name is derivative of his own name
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: is Shah comes from esh, which is the word for
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: male or man. So so you have the order of creation,
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: you have the naming that's going on, that's demonstrating Adam's leadership.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: And then when you see the order of temptation, when
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Satan does come into the picture, who does he go
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: to first. He's coming in the form of a serpent,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and he goes to the woman first, and then the
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: woman subverts the man, and then they boast evade God.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And so even in the way that the temptation occurs,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: you can tell Satan is trying to take what was
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: right side up and turn it upside down. It was
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: supposed to be, you know, God creating man, He gave
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: him a command, the man gave the command to his wife,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: and then they both were to be ruling over the
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: pa of the ground. Now you've got with after the
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: temptation of the serpent, You've got the serpent at the
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: top dictating to the woman, who's then dictating to the man,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: and then they're both evading God. So even the order
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: of temptation is showing you a subversion of the original
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: order of creation, so that's also testifying to this. So
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: I think the egalitarians are wrong to say that male headship,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: male leadership, and marriage and to the church that that's somehow,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: you know, a consequence of sin, that that the cross eradicates. No,
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: it's there in chapter two and the careful, careful readers
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: of scripture, we're going to see it there.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: And you mentioned the order of accountability talk about that,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: how God holds Adam accountable for all?
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when when when Adam comes in, when God comes
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: looking for Adam and Eve, it says there, it says
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: God called to the man and said to him, where
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: are you? Singular? It's singular in Hebrew. So they both sinned.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: The woman was the first one to take a bite.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: And who's God coming to holding it accountable for this?
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: He's holding the man accountable. Now. The reason, I think
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: is because he had put the man in charge of
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: the garden and had told him to guard the garden.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: And what did Adam just do? Well, it says when
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: she took the fruit, she took a bite and then
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: she gave it to her husband who was with her.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: So apparently Adam is there all along, not guarding the
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: garden while this serpent comes in and subverts his wife
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: subverts the garden. And so before Eve takes a bite,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I think Adam is sinning. I think it's a failure
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: of headship. And so when you get to Romans five
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and you see that, you know, the apostle Paul says
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: that all sin traces back to Adam, and Adam we
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: all die, and from Adam death has spread to all men.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: I think Adam was the first one to fall, and
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: it was a failure of headship. His wife was the
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: first to take a bite, but he was the first
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: one to fail to guard the garden and to guard
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: his wife.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Christ is the new atom in the
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: New Testament. So there's that direct kind of line. So
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: let's look at one of the passages you tackle. I
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: think five passages are four? Uh, and let's see you wait, one, two, three, four, five, No, four, Sorry,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: but let's just look at a couple and we're gonna
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: start with Ephesians five. Let me see if I can
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: bring it up here. So I do this there it
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: is okay. So I just want you to I'm gonna
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: read this out loud, and then I want you to
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: just make whatever comments you want to make on whatever versus.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: It says. Wives submit to your own husbands as to
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: Even as Christ is the head of the Church, his body,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: and his is himself, It's savior. Now is the true
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: submits to Christ. So also wives should submit in everything
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: the Church and gave himself up for her, that he
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: water and with the word, so that he might present
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle,
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: or any such thing, that she might be holy and
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes that, just as Christ
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: does the Church, because we are members of His body. Therefore,
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: a man shall leave his father and mother and hold
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: faster his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: And this is a key verse here. This mystery is profound,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: and I am saying that it refers to Christ in
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: the church. However, let each one of you you love
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: his wife as himself, and let the wife see that
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: she respects her husband. Oh, where do you want to
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: take it from there?
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: But yeah, how do you how.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Can you use this? This is this passage to for
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: your argument.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the part that you paused on is is probably
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the most important part here, because what you have is
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: the apostle Paul telling you what the nature of marriage is.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: And the apostle Paul is telling you, I'm taking my
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: understanding of marriage from the Old Testament, from Genesis one,
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and in particular Genesis two, because he quotes Genesis two
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: twenty four in verse thirty one, he says, for this
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: cause a man shall leave his father and mother and
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: shall leave to his wife, and the two shall become
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: one flesh. So everything that Paul just said about wives
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: submitting to their husband's husbands being the head of their wives,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: those particular relations that God has designed for marriage, Paul
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: saying it's been that way from the beginning. He's not
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: inventing some new marriage in norms. He's telling you as
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: an apostle receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit. He's telling
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: all the churches this is what marriage is. And not
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: only that, he's saying that this is what all marriages
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: are supposed to be, because he quotes Genesis two twenty
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: four and verse thirty one, and then in verse thirty
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: two he says, this mystery is great now. That term
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: mystery mysterion is it's a little bit. They use it
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: differently in Greek than we think of it in English.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: In English, when we think of a mystery, we think
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: of something that's currently hidden or unclear. The way Paul
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: uses the word mystery throughout his writings is is it
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: means something that was once unclear under the Old Covenant
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: or before the Gospel, but has now been made clear
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: by the Gospel by the coming of Christ. So what
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: he's saying is, okay, this thing. We've had marriage all
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: along for this cause of man shall leave his father
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: and brothers shall clean to his wife. We've had marriage.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: That's Genesis too, But he says this mystery there is
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: something about marriage that wasn't all the way clear, but
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: came crystal clear after Jesus came. And he says, I'm
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: talking about Christ in the church, which means the purpose
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: of marriage from the very start, not just in the
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: New Covenant. In the Old Covenant, the purpose of marriage
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: was to be a little icon of the Gospel. It
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: was meant to be this little drama that plays out
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the way that Christ relates to his church, the way
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: that Jesus relates to his bride, which is the Church.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: And Jesus has real authority over his bride and loves
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: her and cares for her and protects her right He
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: leads and protects and provides like a good shepherd does
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: his bride, and his bride submits to him. Paul is
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: saying that all marriages, like anybody listening to this, your
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: marriage exists to display that. And to the degree that
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: your marriage doesn't do that, you're falling short of the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: glory of God. Because the glory of God in your
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: marriage is how much you attest to the truthfulness of
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Christ's love for his Church. And so this is why
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: marriage and male female relations, and particularly in marriage are
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: not a sidebar in scripture. They're a part of the
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: essence of it. And if you get this wrongly saying
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: something blasphemous about the gospel.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe we should look at first Timothy, before
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: I asked this question about second order doctrine. But let's
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: look at first Timothy. Now, ah, where is it? Oh, gosh,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: do I have it? Yeah? Uh is this? Yes, let
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: was form first and Eve, and Adam was not deceived.
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: But the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: she she will be saved through child bearing if they
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: continue in the faith in love and holiness with self control.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: So comment on this passage and the meaning of this passage,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: And then I want to ask you why this is
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: a second order doctorate rather than a first order doctrine
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: in terms of complimentarianism.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Sure, let me just zero in there on kind of
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the main part of it. Probably Verse twelve is one
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: of the most controversial verses in all of Scripture, especially
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: in the twentieth century. Not before the twentieth century, but
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: since then, been so much written about it. I don't
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: think it's that difficult to understand, though, it only becomes
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: difficult if you've got I think a sort of feminist
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: sensibility that you need to accommodate to Paul here is saying,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: I don't allow women to teach or exercise authority over
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: a man. Now, let me talk about what he's saying.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: What he's not saying. When he's talking about teaching, he's
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: not talking about like a woman can't give information to
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: a man. That's not what he's talking about. Teaching is
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: a very specific word in the pastoral Epistles did Osco,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: and it refers to the transmission of the apostolic deposit
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: And when you think, the way that they use the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: word teaching, in my view, is kind of like you
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: and I use the word preaching. Where you go to
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: church and you hear a pastor read a verse. He
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: explains what the verse means, and then what does he do.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: He commands you to obey it, and he prohibits you
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: from disobeying it. In other words, preaching is done in
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the imperative mood. You look over at chapter four, Paul
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: talks to Timothy and he says, you have to admonish exhort.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: In other words, when you do teaching in the context
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: of the pastoral epistles, it's done in the imperative mood. Right,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: It's not just a data download, and it has to
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: do with specifically teaching the Christian faith, teaching the true
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Christian verity as it were. And so he says, I
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: don't allow women to do that. I don't allow her
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: to teach or to exercise authority. Now, there are some
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: soft complementarians and some egalitarians who say that Paul is
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: not prohibiting two things here, teaching and exercising authority. They
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: say he's prohibiting one thing, teaching with authority, or they'll
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: take that word for authority negative and say teaching with
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: the intent to dominate. And what they do there is
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: they're saying Paul's not prohibiting women from doing this altogether.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: He's had prohibited them from teaching altogether. He just prohibits
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: them from a certain kind of teaching, either teaching in
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: a domineering way or teaching as an elder. So there
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: are some soft complementarians like Kathy Keller. In her book Jesus,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Justice and Gender Roles, she makes the case that Jesus is,
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: you know, Paul's only arguing for saying women can't teach
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: with authority, which means they can't teach as an elder
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: as long as they're not an elder. They can teach men, so.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: They can preach on they can teach on Sunday morning
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: at church.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know if she would take that particular view,
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: but those who follow her view have taken that position.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Because there are many churches today. This is one of
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: has been a big controversial thing in my denomination because
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: you know, the Kathy Keller review was and is in
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: that book, whatever an unordained man can do, a woman
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: can do. And so if you have a man preaching
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: your church who's a guest preacher, and he's not ordained
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: by that church, then then a woman could do that.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: And so you've seen in my denomination that there's been
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: a small number of churches that have been doing that,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: and they'll have a woman come and preach on different occasions,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: sometimes more regularly, and they'll say and they'll still label
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: that complementarian. What I'm arguing is that you've misunderstood the text.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Before you can have a right
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: application of the text, you have to finite the right interpretation,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: and they just have the wrong interpretation. Paul's not prohibiting
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: one thing a certain kind of teaching. He's prohibiting two things,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: teaching and exercising authority, both of which are functions of
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: the elder. But there are functions that sometimes elders can
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: delegate to qualified men, but Pulsing, you can't do that
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: with the women and so so. Yeah, so Paul's, you know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: prohibiting these two things. But egalitarians have ways of tweaking
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: this first to make it to where it doesn't mean
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I don't allow women to teach ours authority, but I
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: do allow women to teach in our size authority. And
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: so they get around this verse through a number of
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: different means.
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So, and in this passage in one Timothy two,
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Paul ties this whole thing into the creation ordinance. Right,
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: for Adam was form first, then Eve, and Adam was
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: So it's not a cultural thing. So my question to
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: you is, why is this, Why is this complementarianism? Why
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: is it a second order doctrine rather than a first
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: order doctrine, because Paul clearly in this passage it's clearly
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: to me a first order doctrine.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, the question is we've been influenced.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: By feminist too much. You've been swimming in feminist waters
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: for for forty years or many years.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, unless you're unless you're making the I don't
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: believe this. Maybe you do, but I don't think all
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: again Palitarians are lost and no, no, no, So what
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: a first order doctrine is is that if you get
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: this doctrine wrong, you are not a Christian, like the
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: deity of Christ, the Trinity, substitutionary atonement of Christ. I
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: can go through any number of first order doctrines like
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: once you deny this. I'm not saying you have to
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: understand everything perfectly when you become a Christian, but if
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: you get to the point where you're in a settled
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: disposition that this doctrine is wrong, like the substitutionary atonement
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: of Christ, if you think that you're not a Christian,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: you've rejected the faith. Now, there are other categories of
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: There are other doctrines though, that are seriously unhelpful and
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: unhealthy to the church and can undermine faithfulness. But a
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: person could be an error on it and still be
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: a Christian. That's what we would define as a secondary doctrine,
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: a tertiary doctrine. And so the secretary doctrines are what
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: divide denominations from denominations. So you know, I have many
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: good friends who are paido Baptists. They baptized babies. I'm
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: a Baptist. I think they're wrong about that. I think
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: it's not been good in the history of the Christian Church,
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: you know, So we can go into that that's a
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: secondary difference, because I do believe that they still have
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: the Gospel right. A tertiary difference would be a difference
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: over an interpretation in scripture that it really shouldn't divide
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: you even from somebody in your own church. You can
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: still do church together. So a secondary doctrine by nature
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: is well, it doesn't mean you're not necessarily a Christian,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: but you're not gonna be able to do church with
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: somebody who has a difference with you on this issue.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: And certainly the issue of complementarianism egalitarianism falls into that category,
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: just like it does with baptism, because you're either going
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: to have female pastors or not. There's not an in
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: between on that. You're either going to do that or not,
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: and you can't have a both. And you're either going
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: to have women preaching from the pulpit or not, and
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: there's not a both and into there. And so you know,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: I think that egalitarianism is more dangerous than my differences
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: with people over baptism. And the reason I say that
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: is because you know, with my brothers and sisters who
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: are Presbyterians and Anglicans, Evangelical Anglicans, they otherwise have a
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: pretty good track record of faithfulness, even though I think
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: they're wrong on that point on baptism. The same cannot
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: be said for a galitarian hermeneutics and a galitarian teaching.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: They don't have a wonderful track record. It's often a
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: trajectory towards greater modes of unfaithfulness, which do implicate first
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: order doctrines like LGBTQ affirmation, which we talked about at
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: the beginning of this. So I've always made the caveat. Yes,
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's a secondary issue, but do not think
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: when I say secondary issue that it doesn't matter. It
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: does matter, and sometimes it can implicate first order issues,
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: especially want.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: To Yeah, that makes sense. And now in first we
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: don't have that much time to get into First Corinthians eleven,
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: but just can you just briefly kind of talk about
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: head coverings and because this is a mystery to so
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: to so many people. Uh what what's the why is?
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: Why does not that not pertaining to us today? The
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: head coverings.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: Beg and how much time do we have here? I'm
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: sorry to wrap up. Can you tell me about head coverings?
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: I know, I'm sorry.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to talk about it. Hey, but it's your podcast, man,
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: I may go on. So I think Paul's main point
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: here is actually verse three and then what comes after
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: verse three with the head.
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: Already just but what I want you to understand that
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: the head of every man is is Christ, and the
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: head of a wife is her husband, and the head
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: of Christ is God.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: That's correct, That's correct. And so this is where you
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: have Paul talking about this relationship called headship. So this
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: is not a word that the complimentarians. Man, this is
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Paul's language. He calls this relation between husband and wife.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: He says husband is the head. We saw that also
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: in Ephesians, right, the husband is the head of the wife.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Egalitarians want to say that that Greek word kefalai doesn't
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: mean head in terms of authority. It means source. So
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: the husband is the source of the wife, and that
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: Eve was taken from Adam's side, right, and Christ is
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: the source of the man in the sense that Christ
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: created man, and God is the source of Christ and
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: the sense that either God sent Christ into the world
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: the incarnation or eternal generation, he's eternally begotten. So they
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: want to take this all to mean nothing about authority
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: but just meaning source. Okay, that's wrong because there's no
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: evidence that kethalier ever means source without authority anywhere in
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Greek literature. We can talk about that, but the word
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: kefala means headship is referring to authority. So Paul is
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: establishing there in verse three that the husband is the
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: head of the wife. That has implications for how you're
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: going to do worship at this point, because it can't
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: it can't be that you go home and the husband's
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: the head of the wife, but then you come to
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: church and sometimes the wife is the head of the
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: husband because she's the one in an authoritative ministry role
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: over the husband, or he's presenting herself in a way
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: that's not clearly deferential to headship. I think the head coverings.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: And then also he talks about relative hair length here
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: or having to do with whether or not you're demonstrating headship,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: whether or not you're honoring headship. And so, you know,
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: this is a controversial passage because number one, there's disputes
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: about what even what the head coverings even are. And
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: in my own life in the last ten years, I've
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: changed my view on this. I thought the head covering
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: for years and years and years was referring to the
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: woman's hair, and that's a a long standing view out
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: there that the head covering it's a it's a very
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: unusual Greek word, but some people view the head covering
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: is a woman's hair and the way she wears it
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: up in a certain way, which would relate to the
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: hair length thing that happens later in the passage. I've
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: since left that view. I think I think he actually
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: is talking about some article or garment of clothing that
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: goes on the woman's head. And there were certain things
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: that were signaled by whether or not a woman was
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: wearing that, and one of them was first of all, femininity, femininity,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: and secondly was whether or not if you didn't demonstrate
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: appropriate femininity, and this was a cultural signal of that,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: then you were, you know, breaching headship. But one way
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: that you could show and have authority over your head.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: In other words, you could show difference to male headship
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: within the assembly. Whenever a woman prayed or prophesied, and
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I believe the women were praying and prophesying there, whenever
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: she did that, she would she would show difference to
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: male headship by wearing that that covering on her head.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: And then the same thing was the case with you
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: the way she wore her hair. You know, a man's
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: hair was supposed to be short, a woman's long. So
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: the question that people always ask is, well, how come
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: we don't do this now in church? Well, the answer
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: to that is some people do do that in church.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: There has been a long tradition within Christianity. Even today,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: if you go to the Vatican, they're gonna I think
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: if at least the last time I went, I think
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: they wanted women to have something on their head. Maybe
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: they don't do that anymore, but there's a long tradition
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: of this, of people actually physically doing this, and maybe
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: you have some people in your church, I know I do.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: Of women, it's very common in the Black Church for
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: women to wear a hat or.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Yes, a hat is a thing within church for women
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: and it goes back to this, but there is probably
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: far more churches were in far more Christians who aren't
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: doing this. Usually when they're not, the reason is because
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: they haven't thought through it. That's one reason I would argue, though,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: that I don't think it's an abiding requirement that covering itself.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: What I think is the abiding requirement is the headship part.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: The headship part, and the covering was a culturally encoded
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: way of deferring to headship. And to be honest with you,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: the text doesn't tell us exactly what the covering was.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: If it is a specific covering, you would have to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: know exactly what it was to obey it. In my view,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: same thing with hair length. It doesn't tell you how
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: long is too long and how short is too short.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: But what is it telling you. It's telling you that
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: what's going on with the male and female and the
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: way that they wear their hair it needs to be different.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: And so what I think is abiding here is is
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: that you can't gender bend in the way that you
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: present yourself. If you're bending in the way that you
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: wear your hair and you're doing things that you know
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: are transgressive culturally, that would transgress distinction between male and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: female because most cultures, I think this is a result
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: of natural law. Most cultures have ways of signaling distinction
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: between male and female in the way that they comport themselves,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: the way they wear their clothes. And if you're if
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: you're intentionally gender bending, like a lot of the trans
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: people do and a lot of the the queer folks do,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: you're you're intentionally transgressing against that created order and you're
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: not supposed to be gender bending like that. And if
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: you're a woman doing it in a worship service, you're
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: actually dishonoring your head when you when you do that.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: And so that's the way. That's how I would apply it.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: I don't think that every woman physically has to wear
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: head covering. I do think that she has to wear
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: she has to be deferential to male headship, and she
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: shouldn't do anything in thought, deed, or presentation that would
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: that would undermine that.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: Hey, it's funny that you just said the word queer.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: Queer folks. Uh, can you imagine, like forty years ago
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: to the beginning of time, anyone using that term anyway?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: That's it's funny that we have to really, Okay, I'm
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: going to do some rapid fire questions now really quickly.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: Verse ten. This is a very interesting and misunderstood Verse
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: one Corinthians eleven, Verse ten. It says, that is why
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: her head because of the angels. What in the world
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: does that mean? Because of the angels?
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because of the angels. I don't know what translated.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Were you reading ESV. Yeah, yeah, So there's actually no
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: word for symbol there. It says literally, the woman ought
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: to have authority over her head, and which I think
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: means she ought to exercise authority over her own head,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: and she shouldn't be out of control in the way
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: she's presenting herself, either with what's covering it or the
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: way she's wearing her hair. So I think she's saying
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: that first of all, And so it has to do
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: with what's the proper way to present yourself in worship?
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: And is the way you're presenting yourself deferential to male headship?
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: And then he says because of the angels. Now it's
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: a very cryptic expression. I can't go through all. I mean,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: I think if you go in the commentaries, they'll give you,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: like ten or eleven different views here. Yeah, I do think.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: So where I am on this is I think that
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: there's evidence in scripture that there were angels present. They
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: believed in the first century that there were angels present.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Heaven was present at their worship services, and angels were there.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: And so by saying because of the angels, he's talking
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: about because of Heaven's presence in your midst you have
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: to recognize this creation norm of male headship. That's what
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: that's what I think he's referring to.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: Wrong answer. I believe it because of the angels who
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: left their place and had Really that's another.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: One of the views. That's another relationships with women.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: But we could disagree with.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: That those are the sons of God. Yes, okay, so
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: it's a legitimate, you know, plausible view.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: Three okay, three more quick questions. Who can teach Sunday school?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: So your more soft complementarians are going to say whoever, right,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: They're just going to say whoever. I am not in
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: that camp because Paul's instruction is pretty categorical. In one.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: Timothy too, I don't allow when to teach rexs as
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: authority over man. And you can't just change venues and
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: think that the apostolic prohibition just goes away. It doesn't.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: There's a natchal And and Paul roots that in the
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: order of creation, and men and women don't stop being
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: men and women when you go to Sunday School. And
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: so the prohibition that would apply to the pulpit applies
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: to Sunday School. Now, there are a lot of people
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: who are complementarians, who you know, own the label complementarian,
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: who disagree with that. I don't know. I don't understand
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: their reasoning. I don't think it's a very solid one.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: And what about seminary who can teach in seminary?
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Well, it's the same thing. So if you have like
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: a seminary, I teach that. We have women who are
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: employed here as professors, but they don't teach in the
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: theological disciplines per se. That we want the guys who
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: are who are training pastors to be able to be
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: qualified as pastors themselves. So in the disciplines of Bible
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: and theology, we employ you know, men, because we're a
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: complementarian school. So that's how I would hold it. Now,
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: there are other seminaries are much smaller than ours. They
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: do a lot less than we do. Like I teach
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: at the undergrad level. For example, in the person right now,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: I'm in my office right now, the person that's right
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: next to me as a person who teaches literature, Okay,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: and she's a woman, We have no problem with that. However,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: the theological disciplines would be different. And if you're at
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: a smaller school and you're not doing the same breadth
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: of things that we are. Really all you're doing is
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: training pastors, then yeah, you probably would only have men.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 3: And then deacons. Can women serve as deacons? And talk
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: about because that's the verse that's pointed to the most,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: but I think it's Romans sixteen one, but talk about deacons.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I do think that complementarians, legitimate, faithful complimentarians
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: can have a difference of opinion about deacons. I do
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: think it's a different question depending on what denomination you're in.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: Within my denomination, a deacon is a serving role. It's
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: not a ruling role. If you go to the PCA,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: they view it very very differently because a deacon is
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: an ordained role, and if you're ordained, that comes with
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: an entailment of authority, and so the way they treat
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: this would be very different than many Baptists do. But
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: having said that, as a Baptist, I'm actually one of
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: the Baptists who thinks that the office of deacon is
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: limited to men. I don't actually see female deacons in scripture,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: and I don't think Phoebe. The evidence for Phoebe be
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: and a deacon is pretty paltry. The reason for that
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: is the word for deacon, deac is just the word
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: that means servant, and it's Diacanos has used the vast
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: majority of times in scripture to refer to servants, just
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: generically servants, and then you have like three or four
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: uses that's referring specifically to the office. And so Phoebe
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: is called a diaconos, no question about that in Romans
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: chapter sixteen, in verses one and two. But I think
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: she's just being called a servant of the church. It's
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: not indicating that she's an officeholder. And when you look
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: at First Timothy three, where it talks about the qualifications
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: for deacons, it doesn't talk about deaconesses. It just talks
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: about women, which I think is referring to the wives
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: of the deacons and what they're supposed to be like.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: But I don't think it the women themselves are deacons. Now,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: having said that, there are people who come to a
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: different there are people in my own church, people that
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: I'm elders with, who have a different view of this
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: than me. It, we're not dividing over it. You can
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: have a difference of opinion on this and still be
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: faithfully implementarian so long as the deacon roll is not
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: a ruling role in your church. If it is a
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: ruling role, they need to have a complementarian problem.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to kind of close this, Yeah, we're
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: all submitting, right, Like wives are submitting to their husbands.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 3: We're submitting to Christ. Christ when he was on this
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: earth was submitting to the Father. Like, there's all We're
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: all submitting. And it's not. It's not someone is better
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: than another or men are better than women. I mean,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: by the way, being a pastor is like the hardest
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: job probably in the world. And so I don't know why,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: you know, anyone would really you know, aspire to that.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: Why would they all? I mean, you know, it's like anyway,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying it's not. I'm just saying that this
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 3: is it's not saying one gender or one sex is
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: better than the other right, yeah, so we're going to
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: leave it the But the book is mere complimentarianism. By
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: the way, that word is way too long. It's so
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: hard to say. It's eight syllables, complementary and is a
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: maya male and female in the Image of God by
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: Denny Burke and Denny Burke. Thank you for coming on
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: the show and talking about this controversial Becky.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: so much for your ministry, and thanks for doing this again.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: Appreciate it all right, thank you. Wait, don't touch that dial.
• 1:10:30
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• 1:10:33
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• 1:10:37
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• 1:10:39
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• 1:10:46
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• 1:10:48
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• 1:11:01
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• 1:11:04
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