Latest / The Wild Idea / Dr. William Keeton: Carbon, Complexity, and the Future of Old Growth

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Dr. William Keeton: Carbon, Complexity, and the Future of Old Growth · The Wild Idea

0:00
[upbeat music] Welcome to another conversation for a wild and connected world, what we call the Wild Idea Podcast. My name is Bill Hodge, and along with my friend and co-host, Anders Reynolds, we have been digging into the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. Today on the show, we have a conversation with William Keeton from the University of Vermont on the definitions and details of old growth forests, and why we should care about these standing giants, and what the future looks like for mature trees. Here's something a little short of mature, my co-host, Anders Reynolds.
0:32
Oh, hi, Bill.
0:35
I am not taking that bait. I know better, and I'm in too good a mood, and that is because it is April, and you and I are kicking off Eastern spring break. It has been a long time since I've had a spring break, but you and I are about to hit the road. We're visiting three college towns, so Burlington, Vermont, State College, Pennsylvania, Maryville, Tennessee, and then we're also going to the beach, Cumberland Island, Georgia. And of course, you know, we're going to all these places in our head, but still, I'm really, really excited to be hitting up Eastern spring break with you. I love spring break because it's the one time you pretend to be spontaneous. I know better.
1:19
[laughs]
1:19
You booked that Airbnb in November. You have a color-coded packing list. Bill, you are not free. You can say you came back refreshed and recharged, but I know you ate nothing but gas station chicken tendies and argued with Laura for four days. So that's not a reset, buddy. That's a crisis.
1:37
Uh, no, that's true. Uh, yeah. I, I tend to, to, uh, plan too many things and not leave enough room for... Like, there's no taking the book to the beach for me because I'm just gonna have too many things going on.
1:48
[laughs]
1:49
You got any favorite spring break memories from your youth?
1:51
Man, you're gonna think I'm dodging the question. I, um, I wish I could tell a story right now that was real fun, but I don't, and that's because I think, um, my parents instilled in me a sense of, of responsible fun. And as you know, even today, I party moderately and maturely. I often, you know... I often set a good example for my friends. Like, sure, we'll go to the beach, um, but there's no reason to, like, do a keg stand or anything like you'd be doing. It's, you know... It's about partying responsibly.
2:23
Yeah. Okay. Um-
2:25
Do you have a favorite spring break memory?
2:27
Oh, you know, I, I, I grew up in the, uh, on the East Coast, um, in, in North Carolina for a bunch of my youth, and, and there was really nothing spontaneous about spring break there. You went to Myrtle Beach. That is what you did. Spring break, you go to Myrtle Beach. And I continued that even when I moved to the Midwest, still going to Myrtle Beach during the latter years of my high school and, and, uh, early years of college. You know, one of my favorite memories actually has nothing to do with the beach, but I can vividly remember watching, [laughs] and speaks to this time of year again, watching the national championship game that North Carolina State won, um, the survive and advance story of a, a team that had to win their conference tournament to get in and then just kept winning. Um, I don't know why. That just sticks out to me, but that's one thing I remember. I was in the hotel room in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, watching. It was, uh, back-to-back years. North Carolina won in '82. North Carolina State won it in '83. Yes, folks, I'm a little obsessed about college sports. It's true. It's the other love of my life besides, uh, public lands, so-
3:29
And Laura
3:30
Oh, and Laura. Yeah, there's-
3:31
[laughs]
3:31
... there's three. Nice. Yeah, good catch. Um, as, as Anders mentioned, [laughs] let's, let's talk about the month ahead, this Eastern spring break that we're gonna take. Our conversation today with Dr. William Keeton from the University of Vermont, we're gonna be talking about old growth. We're gonna talk about fire in the East when we make our stop in, in State College, Pennsylvania, uh, talk about what's going on with Wild Cumberland, uh, down in coastal Georgia, and then, and then we get to hopefully visit with a, a, a politician that carried some water for us and, and, uh, looking forward to that visit, and a, and a new institute being developed at, at Maryville College in, in Maryville, Tennessee. And, uh, we're excited to bring you all with us. Um, so what do you say? Let's get after it.
4:13
I'm so excited to dig in. I do just wanna let people know before we do that Dr. William Keeton was a guest that was suggested to us by one of our listeners, and so I just want folks to know we do take those recommendations seriously. So if you know someone out there that you think should be on the podcast, that you think has a good story to tell, that you think really wants to dig in with Bill and I on the intersection of, of human nature and wild nature, we wanna know about it, and you never know, it could turn into our next show. So, you know, thanks for this suggestion, and yeah, Bill, let's, let's dig in.
4:46
Dr. Keeton, I am first excited to have another William on the show. [laughs] Second, I have since childhood stood in awe in the cathedrals of old growth forest, the smells, the, the tangible feeling of resilience. Can you trace back to what brought you to studying old growth? What sort of sparked your interest in this as a field of study?
5:08
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I just wanna say thanks for having me. It's great to be with you today. Well, I've been interested in forests my entire life, having grown up in the, the countryside, in the Finger Lakes region of Upstate New York, and, and, uh, spending, spent my youth roaming around the, the, the woodlands there. But it wasn't until the early '90s that I really became aware that there even was such a thing as, as old growth, and I was working on a master's degree at the time, and, and learned about the timber wars in the Pacific Northwest, and the controversy around spotted owl and Pacific salmon. And, but I was also fascinated in a lot of the new ideas that were coming out at that time about holistic approaches for landscape conservation, working proactively, concepts like ecosystem management, and that sort of thing. And, and of course, all of that was coming out of the Pacific Northwest, and I wanted to be part of that action. So I, I moved out to Seattle in Washington State in the, in the mid-'90s, and, and it, it actually wasn't until then that I experienced old growth myself. Um-Firsthand for the first time. And just like you, I was awestruck, and, you know, I had that, that vis-visceral sensation that many people have, you know, when, when I was in an old forest. It's almost like you can feel it on your skin, you know. You can feel the richness of that environment, and, uh, you know, I've been hooked ever since. Ever since. And I, and, you know, I became an old growth, uh, fan then, and, and I've worked on old growth in various ways most of my professional career ever since.
6:49
William, before we go any further, help us standardize what we're talking about. For folks listening that may not know, what is an old growth forest? Do we even have agreement on that point? Um, you know, how would you describe an old growth forest to someone who may believe they've never been in one? And, and why are these forests so important?
7:08
That's a great question, and it's actually the answer is more complicated than you might guess. But, you know, it's easy to sort of perform somersaults in trying to answer that question and wrapping ourselves up in knots, but, but, you know, we can try to keep it simple. Basically, an old growth forest is an old forest that has developed over, you know, many centuries, and has developed a degree of complexity. Now, we could, we could describe that in terms of structural complexity or the architecture of the forest, a complex architecture. We could describe it in terms of the, the habitats for an array of, of biodiversity for wild- plants and wildlife. Uh, we could also describe it in terms of the functions that, that an old forest performs, things like storing carbon, and regulating the hydrologic regime, and having dramatic effects on streams. So those are functions that we, we see come into play with old forests as well. But, but, but the, the, the general consensus is it's, it's a stage of forest development or a stage of, of succession that occurs in older forests. Where, where the, the, the, the, the discrepancies come into play or the disagreements
8:25
are when, um, we, we debate whether that forest can ever have been modified by humans or not. So does it have to be a primary forest, one that has never been managed or, or cleared or affected by people in any way? Or can it be a secondary forest, a forest that has, let's say, redeveloped from some land use history, and then has reattained or redeveloped some of these characteristics of, of old-growth forests? And then, uh, you know, a final wrinkle is, you know, what about indigenous peoples? What about their influences on forests that may have occurred over millennia? You know, are we including those or not? And if so, to what, what degree? What, what types of influences? Et cetera, et cetera. So, so here the, the, the answer and the debate can kind of, you know, spiral down a rabbit hole, but, um, but I'm not a purist. I, I, I'm a believer that, that old growth comes in lots of different shapes and sizes and forms, and it can include old forests in primary forest landscapes. In other words, tho- those forested landscapes that have never been cleared by humans. But it-it's also something that can redevelop, and that we can restore, and recover more of into the future.
9:46
You partnered on editing a book called The Ecology and Recovery of Eastern Old-Growth Forests, and in this book, a, a range of experts covered some serious ground because the eastern forests kinda have a, a wide range of geography and structural type. You know, it ranges from Maritime Canada to the Great Lakes into the low water, you know, swamp bottoms of the Deep South, you know, with forest types like spruce-fir old growth, which is where I recalled my first time of being in old growth. And, and it's, it's funny to think about old growth because you think you tend to mentally go to big trees. But this, uh, spruce-fir old-growth forest I was in in North Carolina was... The biggest trees were probably six inches in diameter because they were growing at six thousand feet. Uh, very short growing season, very rocky, uh, area. But I'm curious
10:36
what stands out about the plight of what is left of eastern old growth, and the future of cultivating future old growth, uh, on the Eastern Seaboard.
10:46
Wow, so many great questions embedded with, with everything you just said. Uh, let me start with your first point th- about the diversity of eastern old-growth forests. That's true both for the Eastern North America as well as globally, of course. So let's not forget that temperate and boreal old-growth forests occu-occur around the world, and there the diversity of shapes and sizes that old growth comes in is, is even greater, obviously. But, you know, this, this speaks to why it's so important not to lock ourselves into a single notion of what old growth is supposed to look like, like a single archetype. Because if that's what we look for, we're gonna miss a lot of what's out there. And that's especially true in the East, where we have so many different forest types, and each one has a, a, you know, some structural differences, different structural characteristics. Uh, there might be different disturbance regimes, you know, the importance of fire, let's say, as opposed to wind or something else, and those disturbances shape the structure, the appearance of forests as well. I mean, think of our long-needle pine old growth in the Southeastern U.S. and the, and the Gulf Coast states. I mean, the structure of those forests is a lot more like, let's say, a ponderosa pine forest out west. So completely different type of old-growth structure. You referred to the s- the bald cypress swamps of the Southeast, also something completely different. Boreal spruce-fir forests or at high elevation, they, they often have some of the characteristics we might look for in an old-growth forest, but maybe they're missing others. So smaller, smaller diameter trees, but still tremendous accumulations of organic matter, and, and, um, you know, biodiversity below ground, and soil carbon storage, and other things. So my point being that each type of old growth is a little bit different, and, and we need to keep a broad, sort of open mind when we're, when we're looking for old growth.Now, you asked me, I, I almost forgot what the second part of the question is, but I, I think sort of something about where are we headed with old growth in the East. And I, I think one of the exciting things... Well, I'll, I'll say three things. Uh, first of all, in the last couple of decades, since the early nineties, let's say, we've rediscovered old growth in the Eastern U.S. It, it used to be thought that, that, that there just wasn't any here, that there was none left, and so it just wasn't even an issue for us, and that turned out to be patently false. You know, it's the, the sort of thing that, you know, until you look for it, you don't actually find it. And when, when we started looking, we started finding a lot more old growth in the Eastern U.S. than, than we ever realized was here before. And, and, and we keep finding more of it, especially now as many Eastern U.S. states conduct their own sort of high-resolution inventories of, of old growth forests. So that's one really exciting thing.
13:49
The second exciting thing is that we see old growth redeveloping. We see it recovering as some of our older forests, let's say mature forests that regenerated in the late nineteenth century or early twentieth century are, are, are approaching that old growth stage again and, and taking on some of those characteristics, suggesting again that, that old forests can redevelop. Uh, but the third thing that is really a cause for concern is, is the way in which our, our forests are changing, and they're changing because of climate change, they're changing because of land use, sprawl, and development fragmentation, these sorts of things, and they're also changing really profoundly because of invasive species, invasive pests and pathogens. And if we look at some of these, you know, we can see that those pests and pathogens are knocking out some of our most important old growth species. Uh, you know, hemlock woolly adelgid taking out eastern hemlock, uh, chestnut blight having already decimated American chestnut, Dutch elm disease having taken out American elm, and now we have emerald ash borer, um, you know, eradicating our, our ash, and Asian long-horned beetle threatening our, our maple species, and, and the list goes on, and, and beech bark disease, and now, and now beech leaf disease taking out beech, one of our most important late successional species in the northeast especially. And, you know, when you start adding up this list of invasive species and, and the loss of our keystone tree species, you start wondering, well, you know, what's gonna be left? What are we gonna have in the future? And, and that's what keeps forest ecologists up at night. You know, and, and I think, um, you know,
15:39
w-we, we're pretty assured that our forests will be less diverse, they will-- they will be simpler, and that will make them more vulnerable to other stresses, uh, you know, like, like drought and, and, and, and stresses associated with climate change. So this is a, this is really a concern, and yet just this one final point here on that question. And yet even with all of this, you know, I remain an optimist. I think that, you know, we will have old growth in some form in the future. Uh, we will have big trees. We will have some of those structural characteristics, but it might be different than it was in the past. You know, I think we realize we, we can't really ever truly go back to once we-- what we once had three or four centuries ago. But, but we can have old growth in the future. It just might look different.
16:35
I am about to come out of my chair because [laughs] I love what you're saying. This is-- I, I feel like I'm constantly screaming these kind of things that, you know, e-eastern old growth has a fundamentally different character than western old growth. We got different species, different structures, different disturbance histories that go back centuries. And, you know, like Bill, I grew up, uh, in southern old growth forests, which look very different, um, from the western ones. In my case, that was the Ozark National Forest and the Ouachita National Forest, which I only recently found out has the highest percentage of old growth forests in its roadless areas of any forest south of Alaska, which blows my mind. And, you know, if I showed you a picture of that, or if I showed listeners a picture of that, it would look very different, I think, than what they're imagining in their head because it's a very rocky soil. You know, the trees don't grow real thick or anything like that. Um, but, you know, at risk of repeating Bill, most people picture old growth as a West Coast story, right? These towering Douglas firs and ancient forests of the Pacific Northwest. But, but as you're saying, the numbers complicate that. You know, based on the Forest Service's own, uh, national inventory back in twenty twenty-three of mature and old-growth forests, the distribution of these forests shows such a significant presence in the Eastern United States. I don't think people realize that. You know, nearly half of the top ten national forests for mature and old-growth acreage are actually in the East. And when you look at percentages rather than raw acres, the top ten wilderness areas for mature and old growth are disproportionately in the East. I'm g- I'm getting too excited here. Um, I want to ask you just to dig in a little bit more because it excites me so much. H-how did eastern forests get written out of that narrative? You know, and, and what do we lose by not telling that story? Do you think that these eastern forests get evaluated on their own ecological terms, or are they always implicitly held up against the West and found wanting in some way simply because the trees aren't big and tall?
18:36
Wow, great questions. I think you're right that part of the problem is that we're always compared against the West. And, you know, it's pretty hard to stack up against an old-growth Douglas fir, Western hemlock forest, or the, you know, coastal redwoods or giant sequoias or something like that.You know, and yet we do have beautiful, dramatic cathedral old growth here in the East as well. It's just a bit different. The trees aren't quite as large. Maybe there isn't quite the same density of really colossal trees as, as in some of those coastal western forests. But, but yes, that is part of the problem. Um,
19:18
the longer answer is, well, I'm not en- I'm not entirely sure why we ignored old growth, except that our land use history here is, in the East, of course, is so different with the, the, the, the colonial history, the long history of, of land use in the, in the nineteenth century, the, the clearing of, of much of the eastern forests, uh, the, the, the period of really intense agricultural use across much of the East. And then, of course, our very unique history of the, the recovery of our secondary forests. And I think that that's the part of forest history that most Easterners are familiar with. You know, the fact that most of our landscape was cleared, and then it recovered and is now in, in secondary forest. And I think it's because of that that there's always been this assumption that all of the old growth was cut early on and none was left. And it, and, and again, it just turned out that that wasn't entirely true, that in, in mountainous systems like the Southern Appalachians, I, I think you referred to, we still find old growth in, in, uh, roadless areas, uh, wilderness ar- areas that are now wld-- designated wilderness, um, we find old growth. But, you know, there, there's a danger in this argument as well, which is that sometimes people will say, "Well, okay, sure, you have some old growth in the East, but it's all, you know, on these very remote sites, maybe steep slopes, poor soils, you know, places that the loggers never got to or that were never cleared for agriculture." And, and so that the old growth that we have is somehow anomalous or not really representative of what m- might once have been here. And, and yes, you know, there's a grain of truth in that too. Sure, we find old growth on sites like that. But, uh, but again, we've, we've found plenty of, of places where we have large areas of old growth on productive soils and, and a range of elevations and, and places where we can see disturbance dynamics playing out across large scales. I'm thinking in particular of the Adirondack State Park of upstate New York, where we probably have half a million acres of, of primary old-growth forest that was never cleared. And, and those sites are fully representative of the div-- I, I'm sorry, those, those forests are fully representative of the diversity of, of sites in that region. So again, you know, um, we're, we're finding more than, than we ever realized was here, and, and the old growth that's left is not all anomalous in some way or restricted to remote, inaccessible sites. That's just, that's just not true, and we need to reject that argument.
22:05
You mentioned sort of the history of, of agriculture that's, that's woven into this, but I also sometimes wonder if, if,
22:15
you know,
22:16
a, a lot of the legal or legislative architecture protecting old growth, including wilderness designations, came out of a, a desire, uh, uh, from conservationists at the time to make pragmatic, I would say, compromises rather than wait for perfect conditions, right? Like, species and forests were disappearing in real time, and advocates had to take what they could get. And I wonder how much those compromises shape the uneven protection we're still living with today. You know, where some forests feel well-defended and others are exposed, more exposed. You know, uh, 'cause I imagine one of the hardest problems in forest management seems to be time. You know, political cycles run in, in a series of, of a couple years, and forests grow in centuries. You know, have you given any thought to that sort of thing?
23:08
Well, I think it's a really interesting question, and it's tempting to answer with a long-winded philosophical discourse [laughs] which I'm sure is not what you want. Um, have I given thought to it? Yes. I mean, I think that, of course, our, our national forests in the East were, were mostly carved out of areas that at some point were, were privately owned, meaning owned by white settlers. But of course, you know, um, initially indigenous lands that indigenous people had been displaced from and forcibly removed from. We sort of carved out the national forest system from that landscape, and many of those lands had been cleared or had an agricultural history. Some even had towns and homesteads and villages up in the, up in the, the, the hills. And, and today those are national forests or maybe national parks in some cases. And then, of course, within those areas, later, after the Wilderness Act of nineteen sixty-four, wilderness areas were designated. And, you know, they had to work with what, what they had available. And so those were basically roadless secondary forests. But, you know, back in a lot of our wilderness areas in New England, you can find old stone walls and foundations and, you know, the, the evidence of the, of the homesteads and the, and the, the towns even in some cases that were once there. And so, you know, I think that those wilderness areas began a long,
24:43
a, a, a long trajectory towards recovery. Uh, they weren't necessarily thinking about old growth at that time with eastern old-- with eastern wilderness, at least not up here in New England. They were thinking more about long-term forest recovery, and it was more about the experience of being in wilderness.You know, being in a place that was remote, and, and removed from the, the, the, the sounds, and the, the effects of, you know, post-industrial revolution society. Um,
25:14
but, but it, it's maybe only more recently, in recent decades that we've realized that we also have the, the potential to recover old growth forests, old, old forest systems in some of these wildland areas. And I think that that's what's given rise now to a broader movement around wildlands, and rewilding, and those concepts to, to think more broadly than just federally designated wilderness areas, you know, that we could have the same kind of recovery in other sorts of areas. You know, wildland areas that we create at smaller scales. And, you know, we see, uh, some land trusts, for example, working really actively in, in that space to create those types of areas. But, you know, I do wanna say being a, you know, a silviculturalist as well that, that I, you know, I, I believe there's the, the possibility of complementing that kind of rewilding or passive recovery with active restoration approaches as well. And, and we can talk a little bit about that later if you'd like.
26:18
We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation.
26:24
I'm Eric Malmborg with the Eagle Summit Wilderness Alliance, and you're listening to The Wild Idea.
26:29
William, be-before the break, we were talking about, um, sort of the recovery of lands almost to the state of old growth. You, you were talking about Southern Appalachian landscapes that may now be wilderness. And, and
26:44
I love this idea of old growth regardless of the question of whether it was ever touched, whether it was ever manipulated, right? 'Cause I'm reminded of a wilderness that I used to work in quite a bit, the Citico Creek Wilderness on the Cherokee National Forest in Tennessee, where we know for a fact it was clear-cut. Matter of fact, there was a famous quote from the Babcock Lumber Company that said, "We're here to cut it all, and get the hell out," and that's exactly what they did. But 100 years later, I'm in there working. It's now the Citico Creek Wilderness. I'm working to keep trails open, and, and keep the place accessible. Seeing remnants of that era of, of it being completely cut down, the remnants of old logging chain wrapped around, uh, the, the dead stump of, of a, of an old chestnut. Um, but it-- but now it feels like an old growth forest. I mean, there were some massive red oaks, um, in that, in that wilderness area. It felt like it, and one of the reasons it felt like it is it felt so verdant, and, like, full of life, and it makes me think about the soil component of all of this. I wonder if you could take us beneath the surface of the conversation, and quite literally beneath the surface of these old growth forests, and maybe talk about the difference in, like, soil chemistry in a stand of old growth versus, let's say, an early successional stand.
28:01
Sure. Well, I'll do my best. I, I will say that I'm not a soil scientist. I mostly study the, the above ground part of the system, but, but I'll do my best. Uh, the-- there are a couple things I'll, I'll highlight. I mean, first i-is the, the growing of awareness or understanding of this sort of, uh, new, and exciting frontier in ecology, which is the, the mycorrhizal fungi community below ground. I think most of your listeners probably know that there's a group of fungi that we call mycorrhizal fungi, and they form a symbiotic relationship with plant roots that-- and they can perform a whole variety of functions that, that help trees, and other plants mutualistically. They, they, they e-effectively extend the rooting area of trees, and plants, allowing them to acquire more water, and nutrients. Some types of mycorrhizal fungi protect the roots from, uh, from pathogens, and i-in return for photosynthate or, or food, energy that the, the, the trees, and plants are, are supplying to the fungi. So that's what makes this a mutualistic relationship. So a-as it turns out, this community of mycorrhizal fungi is, is incredibly diverse, uh, often highly specialized to particular conditions or particular groups of, uh, plant species, [clears throat] and it's something that, that can develop, and increase in diversity as a forest ages. So that's a...
29:33
O-Of course, we, we find this below ground community in, in all different types of plant communities, and, and different successional stages. But, um, more, and more we're realizing there be s- may, may be some very unique traits, um, associated with old forests in particular. So that's, um... You know, and the- and this, this interesting work coming on, uh, coming out around, uh, tree signaling. You know, whether there's some degree of biochemical signaling that happens below ground among trees, and plants. I'm sure you're familiar with some of the, the books, and literature coming out on this. As a scientist, uh, you know, I, I'm always careful not to anthropomorphize the way we describe this. You know, to, to approach this biologically. But it is, it is fascinating. So anyway, that's something really interesting about the below ground community in old forests. The, the second thing is the, the, the amount of carbon storage. I mean, just the tremendous amount of carbon that is stored below ground in soils. Not just in the organic matter towards the surface, in the upper horizons of the soil, but, but also what we now refer to as, as deep soil carbon or, or you know, uh, carbon that is bound to mineral particles of, of soil deep in the ground, and, and actually can constitute an incredible reservoir or, or bank of, of carbon storage.And as forests age, the proportion of carbon that is stored in the soil in this way seems to increase as well. And we're constantly revising those numbers, we being scientists. So just as an example, here in the Northeast where I live, we used to think that maybe forty percent or so of the total ecosystem carbon was stored in the soils in our typical sort of northern hardwood forests. Now it turns out it's more like sixty percent. So it's a huge proportion. I don't know if you saw the study, it just came out in the, in the journal Science about, uh, old growth forests in Sweden. But they, they found that, uh, old-- Swedish old growth forests store eighty-three percent more carbon than, than middle-aged forests or secondary forests, and the majority of that is in the soils. So that's where the difference was between the old forests and the younger forests. So this is just something that we're learning more and more about.
32:06
Yeah, you anticipated my question about the, the carbon storage piece of that, so I'm gonna sort of revise what I was gonna ask you, and it sort of combines with my next question. But, like, does it matter how it became old growth, whether it was civil culture practices or a preservation practice that got it there when it comes to carbon storage? Do you know? Is there, is there data on something like that?
32:29
Such a provocative question. I love it. [laughs] You know, you're gonna get a different answer to that question depending on who you ask. Um, so some people are of the opinion that an old forest needs to have developed passively, that there's something very unique about that particular pathway of long, slow development free of human, uh, intervention. Um, and they're probably right in some ways. You know, there, there might be things we don't even know about that are happening below ground that maybe can only recover or redevelop that way. We don't really know, to be honest with you. There, there might also be a certain almost spiritual connection that some people have to an answer like that. It's, uh, it's maybe a different way of thinking about a forest system. But I can, I can only give you my opinion, which is that a-as a forest scientist, and I've studied that question extensively most of my scientific career, I have-- And so yes, we have data. Yes, we have long-term silvicultural studies that have tested that very question. And when I say we, I mean here at the University of Vermont in Vermont, my own study, but also researchers in the upper Midwest, researchers in eastern Canada, uh, researchers in the Mid-Atlantic states. So a whole variety of different studies that have looked at that question, and we have found that we can also use very carefully planned, light ecological forestry techniques to accelerate the rate at which some of these old forest characteri- characteristics redevelop. And it seems like we can actively push a forest along towards that, towards that old growth condition a little faster than, than otherwise would have occurred. And, uh, are, are there some differences with a passively recovered forest? Yes, probably. But, you know, at the end of the day, Bill, what I, what I personally really care about as, as an environmentalist and as someone who's concerned about the future is that, you know, I want forests that are going to function for humanity, for nature, and for the planet. And I-- By that, I mean, I want forests that store carbon and regulate the climate. I want forests that help us with flood control. I want forests that provide habitat for biodiversity. And if we can get some older forests that, that do those sorts of things, uh, and, and we can do that actively in addition to, to rewilding, I'm all for it.
35:17
I don't wanna get too political here, but, um, I think everybody listening knows that Bill and I are very concerned, um, about the effort to rescind the roadless rule that's currently going on. Um, you know, excluding Alaska, inventory roadless areas on national forests cover roughly a hundred and fifty percent of the acreage that wilderness areas do, but they contain about two hundred and fifty percent of the mature and old growth forests that we've got. So, you know, in other words, roadless areas are punching well above their weight as old growth refuges. Um, does that shape how you think about the roadless rule? Not just as, you know, a protection against roads, but as maybe one of the most consequential old growth policies that we have?
35:59
I do think of it that way, but you're right, I think of roadless areas and their value even more broadly. So there's the old growth dimension, but there are also, you know, really important, um, benefits from o- roadless areas in terms of flood control, especially, you know, and with extreme wea-- uh, extreme weather and, um, the i-i-increasing frequency of extreme precipitation events in, in the Northeast especially. You know, flood control, flood resilience has become one of our top priorities in this region, managing forests and landscapes for flood resilience. And, and we know, again, we being scientists, or in this case maybe forest hydrologists, that if there's one thing that we do to the landscape that increases flood risks, it's forest roads. Those change the hydrology of the forest. They move water more quickly to streams and rivers below. They increase peak flows. And, and so roadless areas sort of by definition are critical elements of our flood control strategy. And, you know, again, in the context of climate change and extreme weather, they're, they're vitally important that way. So that's number one.Number two, of course, for rhodoverse species, species that might not be old growth associated necessarily, but species that do better in landscapes that, that have a sort of lower human previ-presence and, and fewer ve- motorized vehicles, for example, roadless areas are critically important. So here in the Northeast, that might be
37:36
lynx and, and, you know, pine marten, maybe some others, you know, out West, woodland caribou, um, you know, larger predators, o-o-other sort of classic rhodoverse species. Wildlife biologists are probably gonna beat me up on my answer there because, of course, you can quibble with all these things, but, but you, you know, you don't know what I'm trying to say. So those things are really important. And then not to mention the sort of recreational value of backcountry hiking, backcountry recreational uses. You know, the bottom line is that people really care about roadless areas. It's something that people really value, and that really came out in the, the-- during the public comment periods o-on the, you know, previous roadless rule, um, initiatives. And, and so we're seeing kind of all that thrown out the window now, you know, with the, the effort to just repeal the roadless, the, the roadless, uh, area rule, um, you know, disregarding all that previous work. So those are the things that I'm actually m-the most concerned about. Um, yes, old growth in roadless areas is important, absolutely, and it just adds to the other reasons to, to, to protect our roadless areas.
38:49
I love that answer. William, I, I can't let you go without asking you about some of your international work. Um, I'm so, so curious about it. Um, I, you know, I know the US has, has used forest conservation as sort of a form of soft diplomacy, funding protection efforts abroad, you know, attaching conditions to trade agreements, building scientific partnerships, um, et cetera, et cetera. Um, in your opinion, you know, how effective has that actually been, and where does it risk becoming paternalistic? You know, h-has the learning gone both ways? I guess I should ask that. What good ideas have conservationists or foresters or scientists imported from abroad, not just exported?
39:31
Great question. I, I think if you don't mind, I'll, I'll answer that one in my own way, um, not referring so much to, you know, f-federal assistance programs, but more just the, the amount of learning that has happened, let's say, among scientists and among conservationists globally. And, and the answer is there's been a tremendous amount of learning and sharing on the issue of old growth especially. And, you know, here's another example of where, um, there might not have been, have been as much appreciation of old growth in places like Europe or East Asia or the central Himalayan region, let's say, until recent decades, until, uh, people in those regions also became aware of old growth as, as a thing and began looking for it and sure enough, finding a lot more than, than they previously realized existed as well. That has certainly been the case, case in Europe, where, where Europe has sort of woken up to the importance of old growth, and we've had several Pan-European inventories now of old growth forests, a couple of which I've participated in. And we're finding a lot more old growth in places like the Carpathian Mountains and, and, and, and Finland and, and Scandinavia and the, the Pyrenees and a few pockets of the Alps and, and o-other, other parts of Europe, the Balkans, other, other, other regions of Europe, certainly in Russia, European Russia. And so a lot more old growth over there than we, than we ever realized existed. And, and Europe's going whole hog trying to protect what's left with the EU, um, twenty-thirty biodiversity strategy. They even have an EU-wide restoration law, the calling for the restoration of more forests like this. So they're-- some ways they're actually ahead of the US now in their, their efforts to conserve and restore more old growth forests. So okay, there's an example of something that happened through transatlantic learning and sharing. You know, scientists from over there coming here, scientists from here going there, and, and sharing our, our ideas about old growth, also sharing our ideas about new, new approaches to forestry, new forms of ecological forestry. Over in Europe, they, they, they use other names for this, like close to nature forestry. Doesn't matter. We're, we're, we're, we're learning and sharing about sustainable forestry as well. So there's just so much learning that happens this way through this kind of exchange, and another reason why sort of leaving the doors open for that kind of communication, that kind of international cooperation is so important.
42:20
You reminded me of a book I wanna read that just came out, um, that I'm only gonna mention out loud in hopes that the author, Sophie Pinkham, is w- is listening [chuckles] and will come on the show. But the book is called The Oak and the Larch, and it is this, uh, it's a history of Russia that's told through its forests. They sort of interweave the cultural environmental histories of Russia and how its forests have served, you know, as a, a resource, bo-both in exploitative and, and non-exploitative ways, and how both, like, the empire and the resistance have used it as symbols. And, um, the, the oak is, is sort of this, a part of European Russia. The larch, um, represents Siberia, and it just sounds so cool. I haven't read it yet, um, but I'm excited about it. Out of-- Something about, something about your answer made me remember that that's, like, on my reading list.
43:07
Sounds great.
43:08
William, I am so, so excited you came today. Um, you have just answered all our questions with such lucidity and precision, and it's-- I, I didn't think I could be more amped up about eastern old growth, but here I am.
43:22
[laughs]
43:23
Come up for a visit, I'll show you a few.
43:25
Oh my God, I'm, I'm on my way to Burlington.
43:28
[laughs] That sounds great. Well, well, thanks again. It's really been a pleasure.
43:32
Yeah, Dr. Keeton, it's been, it's just been great having you on. I, I guess I wanna ask one last question, which is, when you think about the future, are you optimistic that we can align societal values with the hard sciences that demonstrate the need for old growth? Do you think we can... the science can demonstrate it enough that we could spin us away from the economics of board feet to the economics of hanging on to old growth?
43:55
Hmm. It's a great question. You know, it's, it's tempting to answer that i-in sort of economic terms, and, you know, we could talk about various new ways of incentivizing, uh, the conservation of old forests or the restoration of old f- old forests. We could talk about concepts like natural climate solutions and carbon financing. And, you know, the-there are those sorts of mechanisms that sort of make this m-more broadly a-appealing for, for a range of landowners and different types of people. But I think what... Actually, I'll try to answer you a little more philosophically, which is that, um, you know, I hate the polarization that, that is occurring around issues like this. Polarization generally, but, you know, o-on environmental issues and on forest issues in particular, you know, when really there is so much at stake that everyone should care about, you know, the future of our, our landscapes, the, the future of our, our life support system. And, and, and I'd like to be optimistic in, in thinking that we will find common ground on some of these issues because I, I, you know, I think that one thing that everyone has in common is that we, we care about how our landscapes look, or at least we should care, and we also care about what we leave behind for our, our children and our grandchildren. And, you know, forests are a big part of that, you know, the forested landscape. And, and, you know, I, I think that w-we will come to our senses, [laughs] and we will all agree that this is something important to leave to our, our grandchildren as, as our legacy. So, yes, I, I f- I, I'm optimistic, or I try to be.
45:47
I lo- I love it. I think that's a great place for us to leave this. It's just been, as, as Anders said, it's just been such a gift to have you on here to talk about something that's near and dear to our hearts, not just old growth, but, but old growth in the East. Uh, so Dr. William Keeton from the University of Vermont, my wholehearted thanks for coming on.
46:04
Thanks again.
46:05
Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we stay in academia with Erica Smithwick to talk about her work on fire ecology in the eastern reaches of our continent. We check in with Wild Cumberland, and we journey our way back to Tennessee, and an elected official that carried some water for us. That is all this month on The Wild Idea. We would love to have you sign up for our monthly newsletter at thewildidea.com. Certainly follow us on all the socials, and please rate, review, and recommend the pod on your player of choice. We hope to find you right back here next week or on Friday for the Wild Line, but whenever it is, we will see you on down the trail.
46:40
[upbeat music] The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at PodLab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Datepack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth, and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating, and if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [upbeat music]