Latest / The Genius Effect / Why Being Busy Stops You From Being Your Best | Shawn Vanderhoven

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Why Being Busy Stops You From Being Your Best | Shawn Vanderhoven · The Genius Effect

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Donnie Tello: the reason your best people are busy but never at their best.
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And it might be you making it happen.
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named it.
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He measured it across 150 companies, and he can tell you
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your score in about two minutes.
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Vanderhoven, author of Pause, welcome to Leader- t- Welcome
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to the Genius Effect , Sean.
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I'm tongue-tied, man.
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I need to take a pause.
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How are you today?
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Shawn: yeah, good.
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Donnie, it's so fun to be on with you, man
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Donnie Tuttle: Uh, great book.
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Um, I'm not even gonna get into the, the fact of all of the brand admiration that
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I just now expressed to you earlier.
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Sean, you claim that a lot of people might be going 100 miles
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an hour in the wrong direction.
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What makes you say that?
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Shawn: Well, I mean, just think about what you, you know,
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it's like to work in a team.
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Successful teams have more options.
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They've got more opportunities, and with that, it's, it's
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impossible to not take on too much.
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We're pivoting really fast.
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We're hyper-connected, so we're gonna collaborate more.
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Uh, we're gonna collaborate more in pockets.
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We're on for longer hours of the day, sometimes when we're
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not thinking our very best.
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We're trying to go fast, and the combination of all that makes it
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very, very difficult to be going fast in the right direction with all
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the pivots and the changes around us
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Donnie Tuttle: I love it.
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I am, um, curious, Sean, you got your start not by studying all of the
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companies that you're doing, uh, not, not at the Wiseman Group, but youâ¦
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There was aâ¦
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Talk to us about your beginning at your family company a long, long,
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long time ago in a galaxy far away, and was, was he that kind of leader?
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Was, was Sean that kind of leader
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Shawn: No.
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As a matter of fact, I, I remember s- there was a software developer, his
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name's Brett Burbage, pulled me aside one day, and we had just done-- we just
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completed a review where we were talking about the priorities for the quarter
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and then also all the things that were coming at us from different clients.
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And he said, he, he's like: "Well, Pork Chop, if you want me to get that
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priority done, you're gonna have to decide all what, what are all the
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other projects that I'm not gonna do."
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And, and it was just these little moments where I wouldâ¦
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I couldn't name what my problem was in terms of cr- stealing people's
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ability to focus, but I just had this tendency to overcommit.
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I ha- I had ambition.
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I w- I wanted to go big.
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I wanted to go fast.
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I was a sucker for a good opportunity.
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And so I, I tended to say yes a lot and push people to go fast, and I, I
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wasn't very good at facing trade-offs.
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And so I was one of these leaders that had, as we call, a bias towards action.
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Donnie Tuttle: action.
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Shawn: And that's a good thing when you're contributing, but as a leader, you have
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to graduate that to a bias towards impact, where you're carefully considering,
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will the activity really deliver on the big thing that matters most to us?
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And I, I didn't have that bias, and so as a result of that, I
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had a tendency to overcommit,
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Donnie Tuttle: tendency to overcommit
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Shawn: uh, pivot too much, take away people's time to think, and, and then I
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didn't create space for people to share with me what they were frustrated about.
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I mean, I wasn't interested, uh, um, sometimes.
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You know, sometimes I was, of course.
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You know, I'm a people person, but a lot of times I just wanted to get to
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the destination as fast as we could.
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And so the combination of all those things, people, I-- As I went back and
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interviewed them as we, when we were doing this research on pause, I'd ask people:
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"Hey, was I one of these leaders that just made it harder to focus, stole your space,
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made it even more difficult to communicate the things that were driving you crazy?"
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And the answer was yes on all fronts.
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Donnie Tuttle: A combination of all those things.
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Peopleâ¦
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I, as I went back and interviewed them between, between these research on
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pause, I'd ask people, "Hey, was I one of these leaders that just made it a
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harder focus, stole your space, made it even more difficult to communicate the
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things that were driving you crazy?"
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And the answer was, "Yes, on all fronts."
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Oh.
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I don't know how that, uh, felt to hear.
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Uh, you probably had some inclination that that might be true.
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You kinda touched on a sacred cow, okay?
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A lot of us, I'm talking to leaders and entrepreneurs, and, you know, it is, we
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are, it's action, action, action, baby.
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Go, go, go.
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You're not saying not to take action or that action is, is like, is, is not the,
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um, we need action to get towards what you would, you would call impact, but
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maybe, maybe split that a little bit.
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I, Iâ¦
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For some reason, a roomba's coming to my mind.
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But bring, bring me to, bring me to what, like, w- what is this bias towards action?
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What does it look like and what, what, how is it ch- maybe leading people to a ditch?
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Shawn: Okay, so for those of you that are listening, there's a really fun story.
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So I wrote this book with my wife, and she writes the story in
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chapter one about a little robot that gets itself into trouble.
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But I'm gonna let you read the rest of the story
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Donnie Tuttle: Key it up, yes
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Shawn: So, okay.
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We need people to take action.
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We need people to have the competitive advantage of speed.
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But more than those things, we need for those actions and that quick
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movement to lead to something that is worth writing home about, that
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has the impact that we're hoping for.
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And it's really easy when you're moving fast and you're in an environment
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where you're expected to say yes and there's hyper-collaboration
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going around all the time,
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Donnie Tuttle: all the time,
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Shawn: to focus on the collaboration itself
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Donnie Tuttle: itself
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Shawn: and the speed of checking things off your list
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Donnie Tuttle: your list
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Shawn: versus having this mindset where you're thinking about, "Is this activity
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leading to the impact that we want?"
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That means you've got to slow down to clarify what is the
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target that you're going for.
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How will you know if you're successful?
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And as that changes, because it's going to change, like if you're
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focusing on a butterfly, taking a picture of one with a camera, you're
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going to be adjusting your camera a lot because it's going to move a lot.
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And that is similar for us as leaders.
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Our environment is changing.
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We are being asked to do new things.
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We have to pivot.
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Donnie Tuttle: on
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Shawn: And that means that we have to take even more time to clarify with our team,
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Donnie Tuttle: with
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Shawn: is the goal
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Donnie Tuttle: gonna
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Shawn: the big goal, the priority, the priorities?
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Are they clear?
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Are they still clear?
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The number one thing that people told us that was holding them back
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from doing their very best work in the research was, "I'm not clear.
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I don't really know what success looks like.
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I kind of know.
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I've got the proximate direction, and I'm trying to go towards this."
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So
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Donnie Tuttle: this.
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Shawn: if you are always taking action as a leader and you're not slowing down
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Donnie Tuttle: down
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Shawn: to clarify what matters most and are the
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Donnie Tuttle: are the
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Shawn: success criteria and the right lead actions clear,
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Donnie Tuttle: clear,
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Shawn: your people will not have this clarity.
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They will not be able to get into deep work.
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They will find themselves stuck in the shallows, and this wears people out.
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Not because they're doing too much, but because they're having too little impact
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7:11
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7:15
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7:17
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7:19
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7:22
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7:26
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7:29
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7:32
and just grab a time to talk.
7:34
And now back to the show
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Donnie Tuttle: what led you to being what, what you were at that, um, the software
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company that you said was kind of the opposite of what you're writing about.
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What, what led to the, the research and the change for you?
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Um, and, and, and I'm wondering if you, if in your research or in your, you
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t- you, you coach, you talk to a lot of leaders, uh, you have over theâ¦
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through your studies and everything else, do you find that a lot of leaders
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are in that first bucket because maybe it's almost like they're a polymath?
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Or is it that we're, we're, have some sort of entrepreneur idolatry?
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Like, talk to us about that.
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I-
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Shawn: Yeah.
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There's two questions in there.
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Where-- how did I discover this, and maybe even a question down the
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road, have I made some changes?
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Because I've al- I've confessed that I was the leader that had a bias towards action
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and super distracting and amplified chaos.
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Uh, so there's the question of, um, you know, whatâ¦
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how did we discover this, and what can leaders do to make the shift to
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where they create more space for deep focus and therefore increase impact?
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Well, I was teaching a workshop.
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So I'm gonna do this in two parts.
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I was teaching a workshop in San Jose.
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It was a multipliers workshop, and multipliers is about this idea on how
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do you use your intelligence as a tool to access other people's intelligence.
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And in the middle of the workshop, we were talking about the challenge
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of responding too quickly to email and just being committed to speed and
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going fast and collaborating quickly.
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And I'm in this room with a couple hundred people.
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I'm at the front, as you can imagine, presenting with slides up on a,
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you know, big screen behind me.
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And in the middle of the presentation, let's call him Jeff, he stands
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up, slams his hand on the table in front of him and says, "I'm so
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Donnie Tuttle: on
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Shawn: pissed off right now."
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And I was taken back by this, you can imagine.
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Everybody looks at him, they look at me.
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Pin could-- A pin could have dropped and we would've all heard it.
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Luckily, I froze.
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In that freeze, he takes another crack at the cherry and says,
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Donnie Tuttle: Says,
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Shawn: "I've made my career on doing great work by focusing every
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day for as much of the minutes as I have on a few clear priorities.
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But now I'm a leader, and I am just passing on the chaos that
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I get from senior management and from our clients to our team.
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I give them no space
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Donnie Tuttle: space to
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Shawn: to focus deeply on their priorities, and that's not how I've made
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my name and I'm just pissed off about it and I don't know what to do about it."
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I didn't have an answer.
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But as I drove up one oh one to my hobbit hole in Menlo Park, I thought, "Man,
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there's an interesting question in there.
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Are there leaders out there in this hyper-connected world that
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are creating space for people to do deep, brilliant work?
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And if they're o- if they are, if they are out, out there, what is their assumption
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and what do they do differently?"
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Because I know what these leaders do that assume that we've just got to go,
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go, go, do more, more, more, faster, faster, faster which is getting worse
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with the tool sets that we have in AI.
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Uh, so I know about those leaders.
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Sure, we need to crystallize what, you know, don't want to do.
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What do these leaders do that act-- Are they out there?
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Are they unicorns?
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Are there a lot of them?
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Donnie Tuttle: Are there a lot of them?
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Shawn: Or they'reâ¦
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Is it scarce?
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And so we devised a research question, "What do the best leaders
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do to create space for deep focus on the work that matters most versus
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those leaders that amplify chaos?"
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Interviewed hundreds upon hundreds of people, took in thousands of stories,
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and in that data what came back that was really clear was leaders who
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create space for deep, brilliant work in a hyper-connected environment are
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really good at tapping the brakes.
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Not, not breaks, B-R-E-A-K.
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We're talking brakes as in B-R-A-K-E, meaning
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Donnie Tuttle: meaning
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Shawn: our intention of tapping the brakes is actually to get
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go faster out of that turn.
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I-iâ¦
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We're slowing down to reprioritize in the meeting because we want
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people to be clearer, so when they leave the meeting they can go away
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and do the thing that matters most.
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So they were essentially performance pit stops or performance pauses.
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So we c- we gathered up the 12 pauses that showed up the most
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Donnie Tuttle: them.
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I'll
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Shawn: helped teams get clearer, have more buffers, and clear out
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things that were bugging them.
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I'll say that again.
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These pauses helped teams get clearer on what mattered, create more buffer
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for deep focused work and to c- and they to clear out the things that were
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stealing their attention emotionally.
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Donnie Tuttle: emotionally.
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And
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Shawn: And for me it was a revelation.
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Donnie Tuttle: a revelation.
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The
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Shawn: Core of the belief was a bias towards impact.
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We can't do it all.
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Donnie Tuttle: Mm-hmm
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Shawn: people need space to do their best work, and we have to
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be mindful of the things that are emotionally bothering people.
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Donnie Tuttle: Mm.
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Shawn: That mindset turns out to be just a little bit of magic for
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everybody that works for that leader
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Donnie Tuttle: Interesting.
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Interesting.
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There are a couple of things that, that are in there.
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I'm, I am wondering
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Do you, do you find, do you feel like it's for people to get into the, quote,
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"leadership space," do you feel like it was that bias towards action, run
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fast and break things, that kind of almost, like, kept them in that mode,
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and so now they, they bring that forward into the environment that they're in?
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Is thatâ¦
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Do you feel like they're reproducing a past in, in the current-
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Shawn: Well, there is a challenge in, in this because you do wanna move
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fast and break things in the right direction at a sustainable pace.
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What we don't wanna do is to move fast, overwhelmed, over-committed, unfocused,
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pivoting all the time, 'cause then you can't break things and learn from it.
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You can't get in deep.
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So I think that what we don't preface with that idea that Facebook coined is,
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yeah, but this is for highly focused professionals that are channeling their
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intelligence into something that they can go s- deeply in and that they can
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leverage and take to the next level, so their learning is cascading in a direction
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where we're producing more value, not just necessarily producing more units.
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That's different
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Donnie Tuttle: So we're, we're battling then fragmentation.
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Shawn: Yeah
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Donnie Tuttle: I've seen somewhere that there, there are multiple studies
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out there that, that talk about one of the greatest gaps of, of what we're
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missing in our companies, it's, um, it's effort theft, so to speak, or people
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not giving their dispensable effort towards what the company is going after.
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A lot of times, I think according to what we're saying here, perhaps
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it's because they don't necessarily either have something that is, um,
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visible and exciting to run after.
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They don't have a, a singular goal.
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They're, they're being fragmented in their thoughts.
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You claim environment one of the ways that we can, uh, not force
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productivity, but maybe create the, the, the possibility for it to happen.
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Can you talk to us about the environment and what role that plays in productivity?
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Shawn: If you approach productivity as a social problem, for most of us it is.
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Few of us are gonna work in studios where our work is 100% dependent upon
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our cognitive ability and talent.
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Most of us are gonna work in a matrix system of some size with a combination
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of colleagues and clients and leadership, and therefore we have requests and
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demands coming at us from every direction.
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And our brains, furthermore, are wired to be successful in these tribes, meaning
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we will prioritize a request from a boss more than our cute little focus block.
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Donnie Tuttle: More than our cute little walk Okay
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Shawn: So you ask me, you're my boss, I've got a nice focus block set up for 8:00
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AM to 10:00 AM every Monday morning and every Tuesday morning, but you ask me to
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do something that you say is pressing.
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Just out of self-preservation alone, the focus block is gonna go.
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Unless if we approach productivity as a social problem and you tell
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me, "But Sean, here's the deal.
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I don't ever want for you to level one of your productivity blocks for one
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of my urgent requests unless I tell you this is so important it actually
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trumps your focus block this morning.
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But if I don't say that, do not
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Take on my task that I've asked you.
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Now all of a sudden we are engaging in a form of social productivity
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that is going to give me not just permission but sponsorship.
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You're literally sponsoring to-- You're using your reputation and your
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resources to make sure that I know that my space to think and to work and
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to focus on the thing that we agreed on last week is sacred, and you will
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let me know if you think that there's something big enough to interrupt that.
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But if that's not said, you're my boss.
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I'm gonna
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Donnie Tuttle: not said.
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You're my boss Mm-hmm
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Shawn: go for this thing that you said is urgent
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Donnie Tuttle: Yeah.
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A, a lot of times, and I've seen these interactions as I'm sure you have, um,
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it's almost like the boss, if they're not operating under, um, what you lay
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out in PAWS just with creating the priorities and, um, here, here are the
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things that we're going after, the lead indicators which we, maybe we can press
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into some of those in, in a moment.
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But if you're not, if you're not doing that, what is, whatâ¦
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You are the cause of the fragmentation.
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So you're giving almost like a competing priority.
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They were pulling on one thing and they were making progress probably,
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maybe, and then you, with a good meaning heart, uh, to, toâ¦
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Maybe you saw something because you're the visionary leader or whatever,
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you throw something else out and it actually competes with what they
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were going after to begin with.
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Like that's, really that's one of the enemies we have here, right?
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Shawn: That's right.
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And if you think about it in terms of where-- Ask yourself the question:
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What does excellence depend on?
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We've all seen excellent work, hopefully, as a leader.
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Well, oftentimes it depends on what you choose not to do.
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But if you don't have an environment where there's permission to push back, where
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your team can protect you from the hard truth of trying to do it all, then they're
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gonna struggle to do their best work.
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But if you create an environment where you challenge your team to decide
18:16
consistently what should be cut so they can thrive, and also you, you are
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regularly giving-- You're moving beyond giving people permission to disconnect.
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That's not enough.
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The moment pressure hits, people will abandon their own productivity plans.
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But you s- you use your reputation and your resources to signal to them
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like, "Look, no, I'm sponsoring for you to stay deep consistently, to
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focus on the few things that matter."
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Now, all of a sudden, you're working together as partner in a partnership
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to make sure that they canâ¦
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You're trying to not only get clear, but you're trying to collect that,
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you're trying to protect that clarity.
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And, and now all of a sudden, we're working together in a way where by me
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slowing down, I'm hitting the brakes more often, I'm clarifying what matters,
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I'm protecting your space to focus.
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We're creating team norms.
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Now, all of a sudden, we are being realistic about what it
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will take for us to be productive in a hyper-connected environment
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Donnie Tuttle: I love that.
19:14
I, it is interesting.
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I, I, I do think that, um, we tend to overestimate our resources, and especially
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w- we-- if, if focus or energy is a resource, um, I would contend, sounds like
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you would contend also that, that it is.
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The truth is, is that it's finite.
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You don't, you don't
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Shawn: So
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Donnie Tuttle: like it'sâ¦
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Right?
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theâ¦
19:38
So would you consider yourself a, a, a minimalist or an essentialist
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with this as it t- as it goes with-
19:43
Shawn: Um, you know, I haven't been throughout my life.
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Let me tell you what happened.
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When we did this research, I saw how I, with the very best of intentions,
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just tended to amplify chaos because I was trying to get things done.
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And I, I, I overest- I underestimated how long things take.
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I also underestimated the cost of a U-turn, and when you're asking
20:03
people to shift all the time, how much, how expensive that is.
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And so in this research, what I learned through these, this mindset
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and these micro behaviors, these little pauses that anybody can do, and your
20:14
team doesn't need all the pauses.
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They just need you to figure out which pauses they do need from you.
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You know, things are stealing your team's attention, and if you can pay
20:22
attention to your team's attention, now all of a sudden you can figure out
20:25
where that finite resource is going and work with them to make sure that
20:28
it's being spent on the right things.
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I think as I became aware of that through this research, I can see times when
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I really did a great job at slowing things down so my team can speed up.
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And then there's other areas where I can see, man, how distracting I've
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been and really amplified the chaos.
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And so I've always h- known that you have to be serious about the
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trade-offs to do anything big.
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I've also always known that clarity's a big deal and that
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you've got to create clarity.
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I didn't necessarily understand how I was the source of a lot
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of that distraction and how
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Donnie Tuttle: how
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Shawn: I could really be the opposite, a source of massive amount of clarity
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and focus by becoming conscious about this bias towards impact
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Donnie Tuttle: that you add Yeah, I love, um, I love yourâ¦
21:16
Well, I'm not looking at the quiz right now.
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I took your quiz where you can find out where you are w- causing some of the
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leak for your team, and I got faucet.
21:26
I'm a bit of a leaky faucet, and I looked, I'm like, "Okay, I think, I think
21:31
that I am," because, like, the, theâ¦
21:32
In, in my case, I think, w- um, I mean, there's a balance.
21:36
Sometimes we, we don't want to be overbearing, and what we do is we leave
21:39
too much open to people's discretion, and, and they need a little bit of, I
21:43
don't want to call it micromanagement, but they need more details
21:46
Shawn: Aha
21:46
Donnie Tuttle: than what you're giving.
21:47
And so it's, it's oftentimes the thing that we're intending w- as leaders,
21:53
especially if we're alone and w- we don't have a partner like yourself with us,
21:58
um, we actually can be doing the opposite
22:01
Shawn: Yeah
22:01
Donnie Tuttle: we're, of what we're intending.
22:03
I'm, I'm really curious about and, and when I think environment, I
22:09
think space, I think the constructs of, of the, the t- the team meeting,
22:14
whatever those things look like.
22:16
They're on, they're on Zoom more often now than ever.
22:19
do we, how do we create space for the pause, the space for people to, I
22:25
love how you called it the, the, the sponsorship or the advocate of the,
22:29
of the person to get things done.
22:31
How do we create that when we're not really in control over h-
22:35
half their environment sometimes?
22:36
It's
22:37
Shawn: Yeah.
22:40
There are so many distractions that we don't control, and that's
22:43
part of the starting place.
22:45
So one of the things that every team can do is run a distraction inventory.
22:51
We talk about this in part of the book where there's a two-part play.
22:55
You wanna create team norms, we call them house rules, where teams
22:59
aren't wasting mental ener-energy wondering what, wondering what to
23:04
respond to, wondering which meetings they have to go to, wondering
23:07
Donnie Tuttle: wondering
23:08
Shawn: they can go offline and go deep,
23:10
Donnie Tuttle: deep,
23:11
Shawn: if they've got to always be on or mimic their leader.
23:13
And so there's all of these things that we see other people doing that if you can
23:16
clarify what the expectation is for your team through team norms or house rules,
23:20
Donnie Tuttle: or house
23:21
Shawn: then now all of a sudden they can start to make different decisions because
23:24
they're clear on what has been defined.
23:27
Well,
23:28
Donnie Tuttle: what's important.
23:29
Shawn: one of the things that you do before you set up house rules is you run
23:32
a distraction inventory to figure out all the things that are stealing your team's
23:37
attention away from the top priorities,
23:39
Donnie Tuttle: inventory.
23:39
Shawn: look for the duplicates, and then you ask yourself the question:
23:44
Which of these do we control?
23:47
A lot of them you don't, and you're gonna have to figure
23:49
out, how do we cope with these?
23:50
And you can work together to come up with some really awesome
23:52
solutions on how to cope with those.
23:55
But a lot of them you do,
23:56
Donnie Tuttle: of these
23:56
Shawn: and that's where in the margins you can start winning back
23:59
ten percent, fifteen percent, thirty percent of people's time to invest
24:03
Donnie Tuttle: to
24:04
Shawn: in deep thinking on the most important thing that
24:07
you care about as a leader.
24:10
So this one-two punch of become aware of what's distracting your team, a
24:14
lot of times it's gonna be you, and so we've got this fun little quiz on
24:16
what are the ways that you might be.
24:17
You mentioned digitally distracting people in your communication.
24:21
And so
24:22
Donnie Tuttle: that
24:22
Shawn: communication's a big part of this.
24:24
If you can become aware of the ways that you are distracting people through your
24:27
communication, that's a starting place.
24:29
But then there are others outside of communication where
24:31
we find these distractions.
24:32
But if you inventory those out and attack
24:34
Donnie Tuttle: there are other types of communication
24:35
Shawn: the duplicates, the ones that multiple people on
24:37
the team are suffering with
24:39
Donnie Tuttle: with,
24:40
Shawn: and the ones that you can control, you will start to
24:43
win back this time and energy
24:46
Donnie Tuttle: time and
24:47
Shawn: and people will feel more satisfied with their work.
24:50
It will be exhilarating, and they will love working for you
24:53
Donnie Tuttle: working with you.
24:54
Mm.
24:55
I love it.
24:56
So, uh, create the ground rules.
24:59
Uh, would you advocate for a, uh, a not-to-do list?
25:02
Uh, whether
25:05
Shawn: Yeah, I mean, I think so.
25:07
There's, there's, um, we collected a bunch of house rules that we loved.
25:11
Uh, and, and you- if you can create like a not to-do list,
25:15
say, "Don't do these things.
25:16
Thou shall not not do these things," then you can create the reverse of that.
25:19
Like, like maybe we, we stop emailing and texting after 6:00 unless it's an
25:28
emergency, and an emergency equals X.
25:31
Well, now all of a sudden, somebody who just happens to be a night owl
25:36
recognizes, "Oh yeah, you know what?
25:38
I'm gonna use my little feature send this tomorrow morning instead of send
25:41
this right now," because you might have some really highly conscientious
25:44
individual that just can't say no.
25:46
You know?
25:46
They're gonna get on their email if they know there's activity, but if it,
25:50
if it cools down a little bit or they know that they are absolutely given
25:53
permission, even sponsorship to not be in that conversation, it's cool that
25:58
they're not in the know when they go in the morning and there's been, you know,
26:02
some night jammers jamming all night long.
26:04
Uh, and that's okay.
26:05
They don't need to know all that stuff or that stand-up.
26:07
They don't need to have FOMO, you know, make them feel like that they
26:10
should be jamming all night long.
26:11
So
26:11
Donnie Tuttle: should
26:12
Shawn: you absolutely can use thou shall nots to create
26:15
these really fun house rules
26:17
Donnie Tuttle: questions I love it.
26:18
I, I'm, I'm gonna ask you to play orchestrator for a moment, Sean.
26:21
And, um, you know, uh, sometimes I feel like the thing that gets in the
26:26
way of what we should be doing is the thing that we could be doing,
26:29
and right now I, I could be vibe coding, you know, uh, anythingâ¦
26:34
Like, AI makes anything available to anyone to do anything.
26:39
how, how, how would you pull the strings, and maybe you can use an
26:42
organization that you've worked with of just to make it more concrete.
26:45
But we have, um, we have people doing things.
26:48
We have teams maybe that are going after things.
26:50
We have this now, this interplay, even like the cool thing that you're doing,
26:54
um, with, uh, with JAMI, where it is, there's a interactiveness with this.
26:59
How should we be using AI, like to, in this whole mix?
27:02
Because it, it could, it could almost be one of these distractions
27:05
if we're not being careful.
27:07
So, like, what's the,
27:08
Shawn: Yeah.
27:09
So here's some fundamentals.
27:11
We think about this all the time 'cause we're doing the same thing.
27:13
We're using AI and we can say yes to more now that's maybe not in our wheelhouse.
27:19
So now you've just signed up for additional activity.
27:22
Or for me, I'm a sucker for a good opportunity and I'm thinking, "Hey, maybe
27:26
I could do some more marketing junk with like an extra hour or two per week."
27:30
But then the real truth is, when you get into it to do great work, it's still
27:33
gonna take you just as much time as it would've done if you would've been
27:36
pinning that stuff in the first place.
27:38
Okay, I--
27:38
Donnie Tuttle: All right
27:39
Shawn: of course, there are gains here, but let's be realistic.
27:42
A lot of times when you spin up some new opportunity, it's like this.
27:45
If you pick up an opportunity, with that you pick up a lot of problems
27:50
'cause to scale any opportunity well has a lot of obstacles in there.
27:55
So let's not kid ourselves.
27:58
If you can do more, you can-- you are also inheriting more problems.
28:03
So there's a lot of risk in being naive to AI and, and saying,
28:07
"Hey, wow, we can do everything."
28:09
Now, there are wins.
28:10
We know these wins.
28:11
It can take a list of addresses so easily and, you know, turn that
28:15
into, you know, a, a way to send books out to people or you know.
28:19
You know, you can crunch data sets, go get peer-reviewed articles
28:22
in ways that you couldn't do.
28:23
We know all this, but we also need to be realistic about what are the things that
28:27
if we start doing those in AI, that it's gonna just give us a lot more obstacles
28:32
and a lot more problems and challenges to deal with, and that's gonna make it to
28:35
where we're fractured and fragmented and straddled, like you mentioned earlier.
28:38
So it comes back to a fundamental reality.
28:42
What is the priority?
28:44
How much bandwidth do I have?
28:46
Do I have space to really get into that?
28:49
And there are companies out there that are doing this exceptionally well.
28:53
I love the example of GitLab.
28:55
You know, GitLab, they've been remote forever.
28:58
They started in their early days switching to being remote.
29:00
They give people workspace control, but they clarify what done looks
29:05
like on a piece of work, and they hold people accountable
29:07
to doing little pieces of work.
29:09
So you can know that we're moving things forward, we can
29:13
Donnie Tuttle: forward.
29:13
We
29:13
Shawn: use accountabi- clear work flow-- clear priorities with clear
29:17
workflow, with clear accountability.
29:19
Now all of a sudden,
29:20
Donnie Tuttle: a sudden,
29:21
Shawn: creating an environment that's gonna naturally pull people
29:23
into a clear work stream that, that they-- we can all measure together.
29:29
And,
29:29
Donnie Tuttle: And,
29:30
Shawn: we're using
29:30
Donnie Tuttle: using the deliverables
29:31
Shawn: to our advantage to help people stay on track,
29:35
Donnie Tuttle: track.
29:35
Shawn: because if they don't deliver, it causes-- there's a consequence to that.
29:39
So I think that the key is we have entered a time where we're gonna-- we're
29:45
even more likely to be overcommitted and to overestimate what we can do,
29:49
and that's gonna make things unclear.
29:51
And so as leaders, we're gonna have to protect our people from having
29:55
stomachs bigger than, you knowâ¦
29:57
With eyes bigger than their stomach, if you will.
30:01
Donnie Tuttle: So as leaders, we're gonna have to protect our people
30:01
from having stomachs bigger than, you know, with eyes bigger than- Yeah.
30:01
Do, do you feel like that if you were to fast-forward five years and you
30:03
were to redo your study, do you think it would look different than what you
30:06
found, for Pause in, in, in that book?
30:11
Shawn: I really, I, you know, we just wrapped up the study not too long ago,
30:14
so we're kind of in, in this sweet spot where we're, we're on the benefit of just
30:19
having really recent research and these behaviors be represented in the book.
30:26
But in five years things will change, like with all things.
30:29
I think the underlying principles, I hope they hold up.
30:31
We'll see.
30:32
There's gonna be w- different ways in which we see, uh, this, but I
30:37
have some people that have projected.
30:38
I was just talking to a fellow by the name Greg Powell, and he was saying, "You
30:42
know, when I look at pause, I actually think in five years we're gonna say, 'We
30:45
need this more,' because we will have naively marched into over-committing
30:49
ourselves in, in ways as AI grows and as we try to accelerate even faster
30:54
and further, that we are going to have let go people, let go people.
30:59
We, we are going to be in a position where people are expected to do much more and
31:04
they have less time to think and, and the, and that we're just gonna be doing poor
31:09
work as a result, and that we're gonna need a concept like pause even more."
31:14
So, hey, let's call-- let's connect in five years and
31:17
see, uh, what we would update.
31:20
Donnie Tuttle: Sure.
31:20
I, I, I, I wonder, Shawn, if you could, if you could, the, like, like, I'm
31:21
imagining someone driving home right now, they're listening to this, um, and
31:21
maybe they're not gonna read through, through the book, they're, but they're,
31:34
'cause they're juggling all of the things.
31:35
How
31:36
Shawn: Yeah
31:36
Donnie Tuttle: How can I pause?
31:37
I want, I wanna know, let's just imagine you're, like, the leader of all companies.
31:40
You've just now been made supreme chancellor of, um,
31:43
all business across America.
31:45
And, and now you're speaking to that person in the car, and I'm wondering
31:48
if you could give them maybe the, the conversation where they get
31:52
permission and sponsorship to pause
31:57
Shawn: Okay.
31:58
Well, let me do a few.
32:00
Let me take it a scenario.
32:01
Let's pretend that I actually have a new piece of work that I want
32:06
to give you, which is happening for us as leaders all the time.
32:10
We're delegating and we're constantly, nonstop del- in a position where
32:14
we are responsible to delegate.
32:16
And instead of just saying, "Hey, Donnie, I got something that
32:18
will only take five minutes.
32:20
Can you take a look?"
32:23
Well, you're laughing because you know what?
32:24
Donnie Tuttle: 'Cause I said it.
32:26
I'm sorry I've said that, but keep going.
32:29
Shawn: 'Cause you also know in your guilt,
32:31
Donnie Tuttle: out.
32:31
Shawn: in your shame, me t- me too, that it's never gonna take five minutes.
32:36
And I've also completely ignored and disrespected what you're probably
32:40
working on, that it might be way more important than this thing that
32:42
I want you to do that's gonna take five minutes, but I'm just trying to
32:45
get this hot potato out of my hands.
32:47
Let's say I don't do that.
32:48
Let's say instead of a drive-by delegation, what if I say, "Hey,
32:52
Donnie, what are you working on?"
32:53
And you tell me, and I say, "Oh, okay.
32:56
I've got this thing that I just got from this client, and I'm
32:58
just wondering, what would itâ¦
33:00
Here, here's what it is.
33:01
Here's who's asking for it.
33:03
What would it take for you to do this well?"
33:06
So now I know what you're working on.
33:08
Now you know what I have.
33:10
You've just told me what it would take you to do that well, and then I say, "Hey, if
33:16
you were to say yes to this, what are the other things that you'd be saying no to?
33:20
Not just the thing that you just told me about."
33:23
I'm tuning in with you.
33:26
I'm assuming that you have finite resources and that you're already
33:31
doing something important that we worked really hard to clarify.
33:35
And by tuning in with you before I ask you to jump in, I also show you
33:39
respect, and s- you're gonna be seen.
33:42
So the likelihood that y- I'm gonna get your discretional effort's gonna go up.
33:45
And also, the likelihood that you and I are gonna be partners together
33:48
in making trade-offs is born, whereas before it wasn't even there.
33:53
So if I was the supreme chancellor of all work, I would say start here.
33:59
When you delegate, tune in before you jump in.
34:03
Now, beyond that, there's so many pauses in here that I love with my whole soul,
34:08
that I'm so grateful to have learned from these leaders, which by the way,
34:12
not me, but these leaders we studied.
34:14
I love this idea of, uh, there's a chapter in there called Coach Through
34:18
Failure, and here's how it looks.
34:20
Left uncoached, all failures hijack focus.
34:24
You and I both know this.
34:25
You, you screw up, you ruminate.
34:28
So people replay failure over and over and over again.
34:31
It getsâ¦
34:31
They get stuck in a rumination loop.
34:33
So one of the things that you can do as a leader is whenever you give
34:35
somebody an important piece of work, you just simply sit down and say,
34:38
"Let's brainstorm all the ways that we could see this going off the rails."
34:42
That's it.
34:43
Just start with a, a list of all the ways that you could see it going off the rails
34:46
and then say, "If that happens, if it goes off the rails in one of these ways
34:51
or another way, let's agree on something.
34:54
We will identify the failure and then figure out what the first
34:57
thing that you can do to get back on track so you stop ruminating."
35:03
Donnie Tuttle: Let's go.
35:04
I love it.
35:04
I mean, as a coach, like, I'm gonna put that one into play this week.
35:07
Uh, that's, that is gold.
35:11
And listen, if, if you are, you are leading people,
35:15
tune in before you jump in.
35:17
And I just, I love the way that you framed it.
35:19
Like, what would, what would it take for you to do this well?
35:21
I just feel like now you're partnering with me.
35:24
I feel so respected, almost like you're, you're contracting with
35:27
me to do this thing, and you're trusting me to do something well.
35:30
Uh, what would you have to say no to?
35:32
That, that is, that is beautiful.
35:34
Sean, you have absolutely brought the thunder.
35:37
Where can we find you?
35:38
Because y- you have a great book.
35:39
You do keynotes.
35:41
Uh, we need to be taking this how distracting are you quiz.
35:44
Like, see if you're a leaky faucet like me.
35:47
Where can people find you?
35:48
What, what do youâ¦
35:48
How do you want us to play with you?
35:50
Shawn: We've spun up a site called pausebook.co.
35:54
You can take the quiz out there, you can get access to other resources.
35:57
You can, uh, buy-- We've gotâ¦
36:00
If you get the book, you can get access to Jam AI, which is an AI to
36:03
help you work through distractions.
36:06
Um, right now we're in the beg- we're in the end of August.
36:09
The Jam release is in a few weeks, so for most people that hear
36:12
this, Jam will already be out.
36:14
So, uh, pausebook.co.com.
36:18
And then also just gra- you know, uh, conne- let's connect on LinkedI- LinkedIn.
36:22
Um, would love to hear what you're thinking a- and how
36:26
we can be helpful to you.
36:28
Donnie Tuttle: Okay.
36:29
Well, um, I think you've earned your office of, of Supreme
36:33
Chancellor of all work today.
36:37
Sean VanderHeuven, thank you so much for being with us.
36:40
And guys, listen, you've just gotten better at leading, and if you can
36:44
lead better, you can live better.
36:47
Thank you, Sean
36:49
Shawn: Thanks, Donnie.
36:50
Good luck everyone