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Transcript

Rugby Direct - Episode 148 · Rugby Direct

• 0:09
  Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Yet inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby Direct
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: with Elliott Smith, powered by News Talks EDB.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, power by Access Solutions, elevating you
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. Elliott Smith with
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: me Liam Napier and for the first time in many weeks,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: we are face to face in the Rugby Direct studio.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Liam, good to see you.
• 0:39
  Speaker 4: Great to see you mate, and welcome home. And I
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: was a long arduist tour and finished with a bit
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: of snow and some pasta.
• 0:47
  Speaker 5: But you're looking well. I haven't had much resk, but
• 0:50
  Speaker 5: it's great to heav be back.
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: It's good to be here. Yes we were.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: We've been hit the half, hit the ground running, getting
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: back into public demand. Have been clamoring for the podcasts.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I said it was going to be the end of
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: the week after she Room. We've had to delay. We
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: are here now and ready to wrap up an all
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Black season which was a bit of a roller coaster.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I guess Liam, if we head straight into it and
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: the roller coaster at the end sort of putted out
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a little bit and wasn't quite the climax to the
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: season or the ride that many expected.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: It to be.
• 1:21
  Speaker 4: Now, I guess the finish was deflating, wasn't it. It
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: was a flop of a finale in Turin and it
• 1:31
  Speaker 4: has that context because of the team that the All
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Black selected Traditionally Italy at the end of the year.
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: While they are an improving team, it is a chance
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: to use your fringe prospects to promote those who haven't
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: played a lot this year. If we think about the
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: guys like Stephen Peterfetta who was left out in the
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: coll for this test, Ruben Love, a number of other
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: guys on the fringe of the squad weren't used, and
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: so the desire from the All Blacks was to finish
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: with a definitive statement, particularly after the disappointment the week
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: before of batching the Test against France Paris and having
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: established combinations, rolling out your best available team. The expectation
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: was the All Blacks would largely put Italy to the sword,
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: and that didn't happen, and there was real frustration both
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: within the camp and externally because of that. It was
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: a really scrappy performance they got frustrated by the Italians, who,
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: to their credit, brought a lot of passion their line
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: speed on defense, they made a mess of the All
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: Blacks right position. But if you sat back, if there
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: was one team that was happy with that performance, not
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: necessarily a result, it was Italy.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: It was and I think Italy did a lot of
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: work on defense and the lead up to that test
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: didn't do a lot on attack is my understanding around
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: some of their practice, and basically scrambled and defended I
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: thought very very well at times frustrated the All Blacks
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: around the right didn't allow them a lot of clean ball.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: But I think what we saw from that All Blacks
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: selecting a relatively first choice team, the players looked tired.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: It was they just looked like players that have played
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: three big tests in a row. And traditionally, as you said,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: when you go on these tours, you have a bit
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: of a plan around which players are going to play
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: which tests, and obviously injuries come in and can change it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: But they did look like a tired team. They look
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: like a team that could use a break, that could
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: use a summer break, that had been playing all the
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: way back since February for Super Rugby so and in
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: some cases you know japan players Ardie and Bowden barrett
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: I been playing since December, so I think there was
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: a bit of a lesson there for Scott Robertson and
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: that you just can't play these players week in week out,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: especially when you have the big three matches on the
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: tour without wanting to be disrespectful to Japan or Italy.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: It was always set up to be England, Ireland and
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: France as the middle three weeks. Those are the big
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: matches and there are a precious few opportunities to learn
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: about players in a test rugby environment. And you look
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: at next year, okay, second stringth French teams luckly to
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: come Rugby Championship, then a Grand Slam Tour, certainly not
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: many opportunities on the face of it next year, maybe
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: against Wales potentially at the end of the year, but
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: very few opportunities to learn without wanting to disrespect Italy.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: This was a chance, I think, to not only bring
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: in some new players and get some fresh blood in
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: there and learn about these players while balancing a performance imperative,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: but also give some of these players that are been
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: playing three consecutive weeks, you know, a bit of a
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: breather and you know, whilst the TD I've been playing
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: is there was his fifth straight test, fifth country, five weeks,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: five tests. So I think it was a bit of
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: lesson there for Scott Robinson and the All Blacks coaching
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: stuff that you can't just flog these players into the
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: ground week after week.
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, massively, and all conventional wisdom tells you an international
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: rugby in particular that you can't play. You think about
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: a World Cup context. Everyone talks about having to play
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: three knockout matches in a row and how that's extremely taxing. Now,
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: while the Northern Tours not the World Cup, the All
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: Blacks played England, Island and France in fifteen days. I
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: think it was huge ask to do that from a
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: physicality point of view, from a mental toll, you're traveling
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: admittedly not large distances, but you have come from Japan.
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: All those things have a cumulative effect. The match was
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: England to Ireland was a six day turnaround, and yeah,
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: you've got players like Wallace a tit adjusting to the
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: international stage. So it was a faux pas from the
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: All Blacks to not recognize the fatigue and and a
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: missed opportunity, Like you say to not give those players
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: opportunities because they don't come around every day. And if
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: you're on tour, if you're a guy like Stephen Peter
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: Fetter and you've played one game against Japan, what sort
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: of encouragement does that give you for the following year
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: when you've been waiting to have some form of exposure
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: to You only learn through doing through game time. So
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: a big faux pas, I think from the All Blacks
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: from a selection perspective, A because they didn't get the performance,
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: but B because there was a common theme I think
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: with being overly conservative. And I guess we'll come to
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: that when we look at the overall complexion of the season.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's look at the tour overall. I think you
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: have to in my mind, I think you regard it
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: as a success. Two wins over England and Ireland at
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: one point lost to France. It could have gone the
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: other way but for our Georgian friend having some interesting interpretations.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Whether they would have won it another matter entirely, but
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: certainly the refereeing didn't help in that test. Then a
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: poor performance against it lead How would you classify the
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: end of Year tour Abortion of the All Black Season.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it was a success definitely. If you
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: take a step back and think about where the All
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: Blacks were going into that tour, you and I expected
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: predicted they would lose one test, and for me that
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: was actually hugely optimistic. I went away thinking, actually, maybe
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: I should have said two losses, because that was more
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: realistic in my mind at the time. The one over
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: Islands was hugely significant. I think there is a bit
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: of context in that that the All Black's got them cold,
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: but I think we saw throughout November that maybe Islands stagnating, declining,
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: So the All Blacks deserve that victory. The one over England.
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: It's never easy to win at Twickenham and France. They
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: should have won that so that they were one point
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: away from an unbeaten Northern Tour. And I know just
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: from listening to some of the players and Scott Robinson
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: that he built the theme of that tour around trying
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: to replicate the Invincibles, you know, it's like with the
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: the themes, and they were very close and I think
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: they largely exceeded expectations. But the book nding that tour
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: with that performance against Italy does leave you a few
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: rocks under the beach towels, or it wasn't the lasting
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: impression that the All Blacks wanted to leave.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: It's always the last test of the year. Let's leave
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: aside World Cup years because that is obvious that that
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: is always going to leave aside a different feeling. But
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: you think back twenty twenty two the drawer against England,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Wich should have been a comfortable victory at Twickenham twenty
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: twenty one, the lost to France to end the year
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty was a different years, so.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: Let's leave that aside.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: But it's always that last performance and you think all
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: the way back to twenty twelve when they were beaten
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: by England comfortably at Tweklom. I think it was thirty
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: eight to twenty one. Off the top of my head.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: It's that last performance of the year which is the
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: calling card, the signature moment that people remember as they
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: go into summer.
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: What shapes the narrative of the season. I guess what
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: it all so says is probably from physically we've touched on,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: but mentally it is really tough when you can see
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: the finish line, when you know you're going to fly home.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: Maybe you've mentally got one foot on the plane. You're
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: thinking about seeing your family, or getting home, getting some sun,
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: taking the boots off, whatever it may be. But anytime,
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: even outside of a sporting context, when the finish line
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: is in sight, it can be really hard to just
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: get there. It's within touching distance. So those results speak
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: to that, don't they. This was a fourteen test season
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: for the All Blacks, nine tests away from home. It
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: was a brutally tough campaign, two tests in the Republic
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: and a new group.
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: So look, the end of your.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: Tour was a success, but that the last performance does
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: shape the narrative.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Before we get into some awards, Liam, i'mlet's throw something
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: at you. Are the All Blacks in a better spot
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: at the end of this year than they were at
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: the end of last year?
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: I don't know, you're not comparing apples with apples because
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: those players, you know, the centurions moving on. Is that
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of those guys that are replaceable Brodierrotelic, Sam White, Locke,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: Aaron Smith, generational players, right, And I think that coaching
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: team at the back end of last year had got
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: the All Blacks to a very strong position, and we
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: saw that they probably should have won the World Cup.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: What I would say about this All Black team is
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: they did have a roller coaster year, but they have
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: really unearthed some potential generational players as well. And my
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: frustration is some of those guys weren't promoted early enough
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: or enough throughout the year. But there's a lot more
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: growth in this team. If you had to pin me
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: down to an answer, I would say, no, you well.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: Those points you raise are very valid. I think they haven't.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at it at the start
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: of the year, middle of the year, there wasn't a
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: lot of confidence that this team could go north and
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: only lose one game. You know, we talked about it
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: that maybe losing two was a real possibility. So I
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: think maybe not year or year, but certainly from the
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: middle point of the year, after they're loss to Argentina
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: and South Africa was a three straight games, I think
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: they lost at that point that middling performance in Sydney
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: was very good first half Paul second half. To come
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: out of that, I think and ascend towards the end
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: of the year. I think they're in a better spot
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: than they were middle a year but I don't know
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: about you, and you'm going to take the was it
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: played the fifth on that one? Vince that that's the word. Yeah,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: I guess you look at a selection point of view
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: before dig into those awards. Probably conservatism is that the
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: overall arching theme of the year from the or bakes.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: In some ways that's good because I think they've given
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: We've debated this on the our podcast before about around
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Sam came. I think he was the best player in
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: the position until he leaves that's his jersey. But I
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: would have liked to see more of Billy Proctor this year.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Obviously left the two early for the birth of his child,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: so we didn't see him. Whether we would have seen
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: him against Italy on this team that was selected, probably
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: not so. I think it took a while, but there
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: were signs there that he began to find a little
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: bit more about players, but probably goes back to that
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Italy point, just a little bit too much conservatism around
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: the overall selection of the other team.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think what we saw from Raza was he
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: felt the weight of expectation. There is a massive difference
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: between Super Rugby and the All Blacks, and I think
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: the burden of history, of the legacy of the National
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: spotlight weighed on him heavily and we saw that that
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: was born out in his selections. The vast majority of
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: the development came this year.
• 13:07
  Speaker 5: It was forced.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: Wallace the Tt only got his chance in South Africa
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: because of an injury to Dalton Papale.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah and Ethan blackhad was injured for that second Test,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: and Captain.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Peter Luckeye doesn't play probably for the All Blacks on
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: the Northern Tour if Dalton papal Ly, Luke Jacobson and
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: Ethan Blackheader don't are if they're not injured. He doesn't
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: play seventy eight minutes off the bench against Ireland. Al
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: Moor doesn't get the time that he does against England
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: and Ireland if Cody Taylor's not injured. Cortez Ratsma's one
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: guy that they did promote and Tupu Vai was a
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: great success. But then you look at someone like Severy Reese.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: The faith and loyalty was retained in him far too
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: long and so they got that call roll largely for
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: the bulk of the season, with Mark Talia coming through
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: at the back end of the year. Billy Procter, another
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: you mentioned they're not used throughout the whole Rugby Championship,
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: but that's just a did set shocker. He was one
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: of the four midfielders in Super Rugby. The Puma's loss
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: in Wellington really shell shock Bill Blacks. I think they
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: had targeted the second Test at Eden Park as a
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: chance to bring some of those goes through. But when
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: they lost that game, they battened down the hatches and
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: it became all about winning. And yes, you have to
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: win Test rugby, but you also have to develop players
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: and you can't do that through not playing guys. And
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: I think there was even that game and Wellington. You know,
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: when did Scott Robinson become so sentimental with starting you
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: know TJ. Peternara in that Test and Wellington when courses
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: lastma had played so well the week before. Some of
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: those selections I struggled with. Yeah, I just feel like
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: a lot of those guys needed to be promoted. Stephen
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: Peter Fetzer was another. Why didn't he get at least
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: one Test at ten? You know he's sitting back now
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: thinking well, where am I in the pecking order. I
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: would not be surprised in any way, shape or form
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: if he leaves for Japan in the near future. He
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: hasn't been nurtured, hasn't been given an opportunity. Looking at
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: getting Richie back, you go further down the pecking order.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: We've already seen it with Harry Plummer that scenario. So
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: if you don't give these guys the opportunities, if you
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: don't nurture them, if you don't develop them, they're going
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: to leave. So the overarching theme for me from this
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: All Black coaching team was conservatism when it came to selection,
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: and I think that was just the difference the weight
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: of expectation when it came to results.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Let's move on to some of the awards for the
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: season that we've conjured up. That leads us nicely into
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: a best selection, worse selection. Liam your thoughts and feelings
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: on the best selection for the All Blacks this year
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: and the worst one?
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Well, the best, as I mentioned it was forced. But
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: Wallace the TC, you know what a absolute revelation he's
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: been coming and starting against the box and Cape Town.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: Just his all roundability, isn't it. It's his footwork at
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: the line, his destructive ball carrying. I think it's got
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: a bit of work to do on his defense and
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: patience to a degree to you know, throwing a wild
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: offload where maybe he should go down, but sometimes that
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: sticks and he's a superstar.
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: It's a fine line.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: So whether he played blindside or number eight, he's the
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: future of the All Blacks loose forward so best and
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: this will come as no shock to you, the worst
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Chaffey Harkeey mate.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Wow was he selected?
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: He was in the squad.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I can't have a crack at Schaefe mate.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go best selection. Agree with you on
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: was so Tisi? Yeah, I mean hard to go past him,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: isn't it the impact that he's had in the year.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: We went talking about him at the start of the
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: year on Rugby Derick as a Chiefs play a little alone,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: you know, the way that he's come on to the team.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: So I agree with that. Look. Phinlay Christie is probably
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: the worst selection. It felt like time to move on
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: around the half backs and Ken Roygard was injured, but
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: they clung on to him for a little bit and
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: then cut the rope after that England series. I get
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: they wanted experience, but it just felt like time had
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: moved on a little bit from Finlay Christie I think
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: he did a good job under Ian Foster.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: He has played very well for the Blues.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: But in terms of international rugby, I think the jury's
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: always been out on Finlay, so I think they kept
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: him and then probably kept him on a little bit
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: too long for that England series once had found Nola
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Hotham and we're comfortable with that.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: That was the end of that. Best performance, worst performance
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: of the year.
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: Best performance is Ireland because of the way they finished
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: that game and throughout this year the Rugby Championship five
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: final quarter fades and France as well. Second half performance
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: you mentioned obviously the Georgian referee and other circumstances. The
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: TMO coming in and didn't help the All Blacks, but
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: their second half was infinitely worse. They didn't control the
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: pace in tempo, they made a number of different eras
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: against front so the back end the matches has been
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: a big issue for the All Blacks and they flipped
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: that script against Island. The bench came on, made a
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: massive impact and they've finished over the top of Ireland,
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: scoring late, winning by ten points. So and that was
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: their biggest scalp of the year. Worst performance probably the
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: Pumas and Wellington. There was real panic in the ranks.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: You think about that double pass where they'd lost forty
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: meters under their own goal line. We're just like, what
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: the hell is going on here? Is this the All Blacks?
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: There is this under fives rugby that you don't see
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: those sort of basic eras from the All Blacks.
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: So there was real panic.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: It seemed like there was a lack of leadership, lack
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: of composure, and it was it was hard to unravel
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: what was unfolding before your eyes. I think the worst
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: loss for me was was France in Paris, because the
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: All Blacks were the better team, but the worst performance
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: was the Pumas.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I agree on the Pumas almost slightly different and so
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the worst performance was that last forty minutes against Australia
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: in Sydney, because it was atrociously bad. I mean it
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: was everything that could go wrong was possibly going wrong
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: in that game that they were on track at one
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: point to blitz them by sixty. Really they started that
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: game so strongly and then just completely looked like a
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: different team after halftime. So worst performance is that forty
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: minutes against Australia. Best performance after grew with Island I
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: was going to go trying to go somewhere different and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: try and be a little bit cute about my answer here.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I was going to say the first seventy minutes at
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Alice Park all the first forty minutes that start to France.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: But that probably paints a bit of a picture, isn't
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: it that the All Blacks this year have been a
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: team of halves, a team of moments, a team of
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: passages of play, but not a team of eighty minutes.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, consistently inconsistent. Just on that Sydney performance, the All
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Blacks had fourteen yellow cards in their last ten tests
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: and so that's one major area that proved costly this year.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: They started very strongly on that front and it got
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: worse and worse and worse the year went on. So
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: that's something they need to look at heading into next year,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: is the discipline and how far that line goes. Player
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: of the Year one back, one forward, please limb.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: I'm going to go to Pouvai for four of the year.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: If you go back to the start of this year,
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: Sam White, Locke, Brody Rittelic gone, Scott Barrett, miss chunks
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: of this year through Andrew Patrick Tupolo to the same.
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: If there was one area Scott Robinson was sitting up
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: at night in a cold sweat, it was Locke and
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: Tupuv had done a four year apprenticeship behind those guys,
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: not really proven himself because he hadn't had the opportunities.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: He played blindside a wee but played lock. But this
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: was his year and he seized it big time against
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: and big Test too again against the box in South
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: Africa Ireland England became a real presence at the line
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: out over the ball as well, very mobile, so he
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: was a big mover for me in the forward pack
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: and in the back line. This is much tougher because
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: Dealix took a long time to find a lot of
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: their selections and there was a lot of change. I'm
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: going to probably say someone like.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Here we go, here we go.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: Well, Jordan, I think by the back end of this
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: year he was a big mover. He's been waiting a
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: long time for that fifteen role. Wasn't perfect, had a
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: tough introduction coming back from shoulder injury. Was really scratchy.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: In his first Test at fullback this year in Cape Town,
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: had it under the bar Ja hyball with the box
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: but I just think he brings a real different attacking
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: dimension and he is a more traditional fullback than what
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: the All Blacks have used in the last World Cup cycle.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: When you think about Boden Barrett, who was probably more
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: a kick first fullback, where Will Jordan's very much run
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: first and he's a real attacking weapon. I think he's
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: got thirty eight trials and forty one tests just unreal
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: strike great.
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: So I'll go of Jordan my.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Forward of the year. I'm going to a Wallace to
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: TZ look tossed up between two Bovin and Wallace to TV.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: In fact, you could throw Troll Omex in there as well.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe Cody Taylor if he'm playing against Ireland one of
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: those big tests he missed obviously through the head knock
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in England as well.
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: Tyro in particular, absolute rock Well.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: The first choice, probably the best in the world actually
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: in his position. He's got to that point. So I'm
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: going to Wallace to TV just for the impact he
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: made to that All Blacks team from as we touched
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: on before, from nowhere to being a bolted on first
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: choice player by the end of the season. I'm giving
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: it to Wallace to Titi so I'm locking him as
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: my forward back is a tough choice.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna get Caleb Clark.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good shot, because you think aback the last year
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: at the World Cup, he didn't get a lot of opportunities.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: He was pretty much out of it. He was in
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: the squad, but it's pretty much not in the first
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: choice twenty three, or if he was, he was breeding
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: twenty three. This year he had a very good Super
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Rugby season hat trick in the final and then built himself,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I thought, into clearly the first choice left winger in
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks once again. So for a player that
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: burst onto the scene in twenty twenty probably had an
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: ill fated and a trip to the sevens and twenty
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: one that maybe you want to take back and injuries
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: and things like that, I think Caleb Clark gets my.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Vote for the Back of the Year.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: So just on that though, you rattled off a number
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: of names in the forward pack, which I agree with,
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: and the backlune we're both struggling, which says a lot.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: I think about the All Blacks attack yep. And the
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: performance of the back line as a whole.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Well, I think yeah, And you did a piece on
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: this we'll get into a prediction fortween twenty five shortly,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: but I think that the issue going twenty twenty f
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: what is the best nine through fifteen And also the
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: bench make up for the All Blacks. I think in
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: a weird way, they've got the best players in the
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: positions in the country in those juerseys, but that doesn't
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: necessarily mean the the best players for the All Blacks
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: back line. And you look at that Jordi Barrett, Rico
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: you won in midfield. Both exceptional players. But I don't
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: know that All Blacks are getting enough out of midfield
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: at the moment in terms of their attack. Ten Boden
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Barrett came in there later in the season. I thought
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: he was assured and pretty good in those performances. I
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: like Damian McKenzie coming off the bench. I think that's
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the position that I would have him in. Boden Barretts
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: will come off the bench at the start of the
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: year and perform very very well. Those are kind of
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: impact players. But the back line I think is the
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: big work on for the All Blacks going into twenty
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: twenty five.
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, at its big time, And I agree with you
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: about the midfield. I don't think it was Jordie's greatest year.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: I don't know if they're using Rico and the best
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: way he Rico is hugely or a. He's polarizing and
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: I don't think people are seeing enough from him on attack,
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: but he is an absolute rock on defense and he
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: was huge in that Irish tests Wyin shut down Bundy
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: a key forced him into a number of different eras.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's huge on attack, He's sorry huge on defense.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: He is probably the best defensive center in the world.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: But they were using him a lot. Hardball carries short
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: balls at the line into content and there was a
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: lot of lost position in that way. So I think
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: the midfield does needs just give some people an opportunity.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: We mentioned Billy Proctor aj Lamb. I think you know
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: there's others around. So if I looked at the All
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: Blacks back line as a whole, you'd say camera regards
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: locked at halfback on form currently Caleb Clark and Mark
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: Dala on the wings and Will Jordan at fullback, and
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: you would say that the midfield is largely set. But
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: I would like to see a bit of experimentation there
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: and I think longer term it's proven that other wingers
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: will emerge as well. That they the All Blacks tend
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: to pick on form and World Cup years struck while
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: they Ron's hot with wingers. That that's how it tends
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: to happen. Tends a bit of a state of flux.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: So yeah, the back line is the real interesting touch
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: point for next year. They need more from the All Black.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: We need to see more continuity, strike plays, attacking punch
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: from the All Blacks.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Don't we do.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: I think that is that the major work on heading
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: into the year. Let's give us a rating for the
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: All Blacks out of ten for the season or a
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: great which everyone you prefer.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: I'm going to go C plus. Did that for the
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: written piece and I'm happy with it. I think it's
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: a patchy pass. If you look at the context of
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: the year, you know they started, I think take a
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: step back.
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: This was the biggest.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Coaching management change for the All Blacks in twenty years
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: and that is significant. It is going to take time,
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: but there was errors made. Leo McDonald came and went
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: very abruptly five tests into the year. That's a black
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: mark on the season. A costly payouts for.
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: Leon to go.
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: He was signed for four years paid out for two
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: So the All Black start the year patchy, trying to
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: integrate all these changes with England the Raby Championships fifty percent,
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: they lose the Freedom Cup for the first time since
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: two thousand and nine and the Rabby Championship for the
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: first time in five years as well.
• 27:51
  Speaker 5: Context as well.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: You know, the Springboks are the best team in the
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: world and quite far ahead of everyone else at the moment,
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: and you go into their backyard, the All Blacks could
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: wold have should have won that and then they have
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: a successful end of year tour.
• 28:03
  Speaker 5: So for me, it's a patchy pass.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: We've talked about the selections, inconsistencies within games, the promise
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: of emerging talents, and this coaching team hopefully getting better,
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: but I want to see more.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be minus just on the basis that
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: interviewed too, because it could have you know, if they've
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: lost twice then there's some serious questions and there are
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: serious questions, but it could have been some serious questions
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: heading into the off season around the direction of this team.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: But the fact that they beat England and I lost
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: by one point just elevates them above a you know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: seas to get degrees, but be minus for me at
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: the end of the year.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: Okay, And so what about Razor, Let's give him a mark.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: It's his first year. He's come off the back of
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: seven titles for the Crusaders, stepped into the role he's
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: coveted for so long. I think he had nine months
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: to prepare for it. He was appointed, you know, prior
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: to the World Cup that was highly controversial, had all
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: that time to prepare his strategy team. But there's nothing
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: like being in the hot seat.
• 29:03
  Speaker 5: How did he go?
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Look, I think he learned over the course of the
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: year things about Test rugby coaching wise. Obviously he's played it,
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: but the game has moved on a bit since he
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: played it. Obviously way different to Super rugby. The management
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: of players. You know, we touched on the Italy performance then,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: but if that was Super rugby and it was say,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: substitute Mowana Pacifica in that era for athlete, then Scott
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: Robinson's banking change that the Crusaders to keep his players fresh.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But because that pressure environment of Test rugby is so absolute,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: he doesn't feel comfortable yet enough to trust the players
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: that he's got. So look, I think you look at
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: it and go could have been a bit more ruthless.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: I mean I spoke to him after the game for
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: an interview at season review and he said similar lines.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Could he have been more ruthless or could he have
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: made those decisions? And that's something that keeps him up
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: at night. Got rid of Leo on McDonald when it
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: was clear it wasn't working. But I think you need
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: to probably impart more of that ruthlessness and inverted commas
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: into selections and team strategy. So probably give it a
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: similar All Blacks grade B plus be minus brother.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: I'm going to give Razor a C. I think it
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: was a big, big learning year for him. I think
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: he will be better for the experience. But there were
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: a lot of challenges for him on the Leo McDonald front,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: and there were potential inconsistencies as well. When you look
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: at Damian McKenzie missing the bus in San Diego and
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: not getting any punishment, Ethan de Groot breaks curfew in
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: Japan gets a one game punishment. Those are the things
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: that can create a bit of dissatisfaction within the team.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: I think it's.
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: Tough any well.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: Scott Barrets's captain, and that's not a new partnership, but
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: it is elevated to a whole other level. Coming into
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: the All Blacks, He's got a whole new coaching team,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: so major challenges. But I think rightly or wrongly, there
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: were massive expectations on Razor and he hasn't met those yet.
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: But I'll give him a pass for this year.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Okay, let's move on to you had an all backs
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: boulterer for twenty twenty five that you wanted to throw
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: at me.
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Yes, not going to be the one you thought. And
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: this is my This is not the way I would go.
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: But Shaffi Hockey Razor is big on experience, right. We've
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: seen that this year with Sam came and TJ. Peter Andara.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: I can see them going back to Finlay Christie and
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: the half bat mix. I don't know if no Hopam
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: is going to be deemed ready, and with TJ. Peter
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: and A moving on, I feel like they're going to
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: want a safety blanket.
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: That's a bit of experience.
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: I know he hasn't played the same number of tests
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: as TJ. I would not be surprised to see Finlay
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: back in the mix next year. That's not the way
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: I would go but there's an all backs bowler, there's
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: a bolt. If there's a bolter for you in twenty
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: twenty five.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: You look at that next look, I don't think Cortius
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: right my head. The greatest two tours, some of that
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: is own doing. Some of that I thought wasn't well protected.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: That ruck didn't get a lot of clean ball. The
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: refereeing on that was a bit dubious at times. But
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks, we're giving me a lot of protection
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: around the ruck in those matches he started. I think
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: there is just yea, there is a question, no doubt
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: about half back. Can Roy guard clearly the best half
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: back in New Zealand at the moment. Cortez Ratama, we'll
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: get another Super Rugby season under his belt next year.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: You look at the Hurricanes and roygad is going to
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: start a lot of that game time there. The Crusaders
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: have Mitch Strummond, Noah Hotham, Kyle Preston down the Highlanders.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: You know, for Fakatava, how far far has he fallen
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: down the ranks?
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: I forgot man really isn't he?
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: And you know he was the next big thing two
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: or three years back and now he can can't make
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: the All Blacks fifteen selections, So I think there is
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: a question mark around half back next year. Maybe maybe
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: you're right, Maybe maybe he's back in the mix for
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: next year.
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: Could be.
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: I think there is a real discussion to be had
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: about who deputizes and how you get that max right,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: because as you say, Cortez was very good early on
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: there when he was starting, but coming off the bench
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: just exposed up north with that rut pressure.
• 33:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so who's your bolter?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Well, Olie Mathis is the player that I would look
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: at for the All Blacks Now. He's off playing sevens
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: at the moment, whether that's his choice of whether that's
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: a New Zealand Rocky Pathway selection or what so. He
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: probably not going to be playing superbar injuries or something
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: like that, but I'd be looking to him. Look, he
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: looks good enough with a bit more rugby under his
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: belt to be playing.
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: What position does he play?
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: That's the beauty of it.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I think he could go on the bench with the
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: All Blacks and cover flanker or winger. And I think
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that's maybe an area as well where we talk about
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the strategy and various things. Is that not so much
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: a bomb squad, but just around using the bench in
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the right positions and being a bit more innovative around
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: some of those selections and looking to do things a
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: little bit differently that the All Blacks could go with.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: And I think someone like a hybrid player like that
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: could be the kind of player that you look to.
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe I think he probably needs a wee bit
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: more size to be a test loose for but I
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: agree that what a valuable asset to have a guy
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: that can genuinely play that breadth of position.
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, depending on how the Stevens goes,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I'll be looking at him maybe for a need of
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: your two next year.
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: I got another one here just on top of the
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: head to put you on the spot biggest mover and
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: next year. So it could be somebody that has played
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: for the All Blacks has not I'll go first to
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: give you a bit of time demment. So I'm going
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: to go Fabian Holland. For me, it was really telling
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: to hear Sam Caine speak so glowingly of his character.
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: Fabian has been fast tracked a little bit with the
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: change in eligibility played for the All Blacks fifteen spent
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: time in the All Blacks camp. He's a unit and
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: that extra height is massive from a line out target.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: He will only get better under Jamie Joseph at the
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: Highlanders as well. I can see him surpassing Josh Lord
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: Sam Dowry and being a bolted on All Black next year.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: So I'll put you on the spot here. Is there
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: anybody else that that could be a big mover?
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: You have put me on the spot. I'm trying to
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: think of who might come into Ammonia and Narawa maybe well,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: look Schaffy Harks. So it's hard to see. Look, I
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: agree on Fabian Holland. He when he was training in Turin,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: and look, he is just huge. He is a huge,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: big body that the All Blacks don't really produce and
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: are looking to produce. And you look at the effort
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: that put into trying to get Josh Lord, because I've
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: spotted him and gone, that's a two meter tall body
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: that it probably needs a bit more sized. But if
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: we can get him into he already plays rugby. If
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: we get him into our environment and get him up
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: to the level, then he's a you know, it could
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: be a test quality player hasn't had a lot of
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: opportunities joshlaught at either super level or Test level. But
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Fabian Horn looks like that player that's already filled out
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: on the frame, that is ready to go. So I agree.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Next year I think is going to be a big
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: year for Fabian horned in that Max so I think, yeah,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I can't think of anyone on the top of my head,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I think next year selections are going to
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: be very very interesting. Whether Scott Robertson sort of cuts
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: a few of the experienced players, whether he remains loyal
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: is going to be fascinating to a lot of those
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: players that he selected this year. I think next year's
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: selection is going to tell a lot more about whether
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: this it's all Blacks team's hitting.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Well, we'll casting the head to next year. So let's
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: look at who's coming home lessifying a nook who is
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: coming home And when we talk about the complexion of
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: the midfields, a guy who's versatile can play wing, a
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: guy who raises very familiar withl for the Crusas and
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: we've seen that benefit your mate Shay Slandy Jordie is
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: a Leicester currently preparing to play his first game for
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: the Irish powerhouse province over there. He's going to need
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: to be managed next year because you talk about Boden
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: Barr and Ardie Severe playing in Japan and coming back
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: and how there's a usual adjustment period. Well, Jordie's going
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: to be shot. He's got no offseason. He's not going
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: to be able to He could walk back in and
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: play July because he'd be match foot, but he'd hit
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: the wall a couple of months later. So there is
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: going to be some change, some rotation in that midfield.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: And the other guy, of course is Richie Wonger.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: Where are we at with that?
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: I think he's dead set coming home to be available
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: for the All Blacks and twenty twenty five, so not
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: the Crusaders, And maybe they'll work some sort of option
• 38:03
  Speaker 4: where there's an agreement that he goes back to Japan
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: to fulfill the last year post World Cup, something like that.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: But all the noise, everything from the moment Chris Lendrim
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: came on with us, has pointed to that eventuating, and
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: I think that will happen. Firstly, do you expect him
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: to come home? And secondly, is he the savior? Because
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: that's basically what he's been built up to be and
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: the perception of raises push for tweaks to the eligibility.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: It's not all based around Richie. But he's his quarterback,
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: he's his guy. What if he's not, what if it
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: doesn't work? Is he as good as he's been built
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: up to be? I guess I think he will come back.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I mean negotiations I think is still going on in
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: the background. I think he will return to New Zealand
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: rugby and that'll be a bonus for him. Look, you
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: look at Richie Wong and it kind of took a
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: wee while from defined his feet that test level.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: And is he a better option than Bodenbauer to Iman McKinsey.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Well, he's an out and out specialist ten and so
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I can't play anywhere else in the team. I think
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: by the end of last year he was certainly a
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: very very good Test footballer. But is he the savior? No,
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's a savior coming back to New
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Zealand rugby. I think it's wrong to paint anyone as
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: a potential savior to this All Blacks team or whatever
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: it might be. Is he a good player that could
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: add something to the All Blacks absolutely, But I think
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: trying to yeah, suguce that the All Blacks fortunes will
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: automatically rise because Richie Wong is back at ten I
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: think is a bit of a misstep. And he clearly
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: works well with Scott Robertson, knows them inside out, knows
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: the game plan, knows the way he wants to play.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: But Test rugby it's so much different to Super rugby
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: and that's something that I'm sure you know Richie himself
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: would admit that it took him a while to get
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: to the grips of Test rugby compared to that Super plays.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he would definitely improve the All Blacks
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: attack because it's not just Razor, it's Scott Hansen as well.
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: There's clearly that established relationship understanding there. I would be
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: very very cautionary of expecting Ritchie to come back and
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: slide straight back into Test rugby. We've seen it time
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: and time again with guys coming back from Japan. He's
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: been there two years, is at least two rungs down
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: from Test rugby, and so he's going to need in
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: a period a period of adjustment. And then there's the
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: relationship dynamic between How does Razor manage that with Boden
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: and Dmak? Will that force one, if not both, to
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: leave and go to Japan post before the next World Cup.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: So you want your best players available, but there is
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: consequences that will arrive out of that. So very interesting
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: to see how that scenario plays out. But I think
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: we're in agreement that he will be back next year.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: He will, that's certainly the word, and probably eligible from
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: what the Rugby Championship onwards. Potentially maybe that France. There
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: is no leicstifying who's eligible from the Rugby Championship if
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: memory serves, so whether it's different for Richie Morning, even
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: it's come from Japan and not France, is going to
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: be interesting.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: I think you'd expect both those guys to be floating
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: around the squads, whether they available or not.
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: We've seen them bend the rules to suit.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Speaking of bending the rules, eligibility again a hot topic
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: this year, Scott Robertson was asked on the postmatches as
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: well media zom for to MW Zealand Media after the
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Turin test around it said some similar lines to what
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: he said already, keep asking the board to keep them
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: in an open mind. I guess the board's going to
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: change soon. It's going to be some different faces on there.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Where do you sit on that argument?
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: My view hasn't really changed. I think from what I
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: understand Ray's argument is he wants more flexibility around Japan specifically,
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: and the sabbatical being increased, allowing a Richie Mouonga to
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: go for two years. It's a dangerous precedent because, however
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: you want to spin it, it does undermine Super Rugby massively.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: And I saw recently Paul Cully did a piece with
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: the five check chief executives of Super Rugby. No surprises,
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: none of them want it, and I think the values
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: that competition. And I also think we need to be
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: really cautionary about saying the Springboks have got it right
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: because they have golden generation of players and they also
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: have incredible depth, and what works for them doesn't have
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: to work for us, and we don't know how that's
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: going to play out for them long term, and that this.
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: Cap scenario expanding.
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: The eligibility has not worked for other nations as well,
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: so it's not a one size fits all. So as
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: it stands, I'm happy without us. I would like I
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: don't think we should bend over backwards to suit raisor
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: I think the focus should be on developing players we have.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I'd like you to keep an open mind on it, Liam,
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: if you could look. What I would say is.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: From my understanding from one of hers, that Japan are
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: lesson LEAs luckly to assign players to one year deals.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: They just don't work for them. They don't get the
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: value out of it.
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: And that makes sense, doesn't it.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: And so if players are offering, sorry, if clubs are
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: offering two year deals to players and going come up
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: for two years, then they resigned for New Zealand Rugby.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: After that there remain eligible for the all Black skin
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: entire time. I don't know that I have a huge
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: issue with that necessarily.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: How many of you letting go though, because then you
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: take Artie severe Rich and along a Boden Barrett, like
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: the superstars of the game out of Super Rugby for
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: two years.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: But they already are out of Super Rugby for two years.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: Addie Savia didn't play this and Super Rugby he's not
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: going to play for Mowana in twenty six off the
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: top of my head, so what's like, what's the is
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: it more confusing to have them out for a two
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: year block straight away? Or oh, Artie's playing Formana this year,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: he's not playing next year and he's coming back in
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: twenty seven.
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: How many of these are are you allowing?
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Oh? Well, I think you can put a cap on it.
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: How many? How many? Give me a number?
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Five?
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: Are you taking the five best players, five Super the
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: best players out of Super eight? Well they are Ritchie
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: Artie Severe World Player of the Year the year before.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: What's the TV two p y.
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: You're struggling to put bums on seats in this competition
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: and you're taking the five best players out.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Ardie Savie didn't play for the Hurricanes this year.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: Jordi Barrett's not playing for the Hurricanes next year.
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: That's fair. These are one so these are one year currently,
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: one year at a time.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but that makes no sense.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Like if you're looking, if you're a fan of Super Rugby, Oh,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: is Jordi playing for Super for the Hurricanes this year?
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: I know he's not.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: He's away this year, is already playing for the Hurricanes
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Orana this year? I know this is his way yet
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: go out for two years and a block, you know,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: what's happening. They're away in Japan, they come back for
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: two consecutive blocks.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: At the end of two consecutive seasons.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: You're doubling the time that they're out of the competition. Well, no,
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: they're already out for most of them, for one year
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: at a time. But is it be said to have
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: the Boden? Barratt's another example. He's been in and out
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: of the Blues environment ever since he signed. You're right,
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: it has happened and it goes back. Brodie Rittelic. You
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: know so many So what's more confused?
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Like what's better to actually generally know that a player
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: is going to do his time overseas then come back
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: for good, good inverted commas or do a year about
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: what's what's better for the comp I don't know that
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: the inconsistency is that good for super Rugby?
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: Maybe not, but Leasa's best. The more excess super Abia
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: has to its best players, the better.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Okay, would you allow super Abia to expand the borders
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: so you're allowed to select safe from Australia?
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: I would allow it if Japan were in the competition,
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: because then you still have eyes on those players. You
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: still have them coming to play Eden Park in Hamilton
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: and in Dunedin.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: What's in it for Japan though, Well, nothing.
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: And that's why they're not engaged with it yet. But
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: that's that's New Zealand Rugby's dream scenario. Because Japan pays
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: some of their best players wages, They're still in the competition,
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: they still have visibility. That's their dream scenario. Whether it
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: will happen as a completely another kettle of fish.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: We're talking about Japan joining Super Rugby, what about Super
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Rugby joining League One.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: I think they'd be open to if they could make
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: it work. What's the difference really, it's just a branding exercise.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Probably, but Japan, Japan with the power base that there,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: that Super Rugby gets consumed by league.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: New Zealand Rugby's dream is to have the best maybe
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: three top league teams.
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: But if you're Japan, what's in it for you?
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: Really? Well, not a lot, not a lot. But he's
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: on for you.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Joey marn who has a storming year for Toyota the
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: war tis go yep. We want to get him back
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: in the midfield. What don't get him playing with Sulei
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: reunite that Rooster's combination should he be eligible for the
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: All Blacks. Joey Martin, who plays the war at us
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: wildly off topic and hypotheticals here, but.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: I would say new Ze Raby would make that happen.
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: That'd been the rules, and I would not be shocked
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: to see. I haven't seen Joey Marnin who play yet,
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: but based on what Joseph sue Lee look Suey Lee
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: is not the finished article brilliant attack. He's been exposed
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: on defence, so he's got a lot to learn in
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: the game and he's going to do that through Super Rugby.
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: But we've seen it with Roger two of us as
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: sick and he was fast tracked because of who he was,
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: and I would not be surprised to see the All
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: Blacks do something similar with Joey Marno in the coming years.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Final topic in the signal of the podcast before we
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: get into the final four wild Player of the Year awards.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: World Rugby's Awards were dished out. What a week or
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: so ago, now, any surprises there for you?
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: Liam? That raised the want to.
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: Look Eban It's that was my player of the Year.
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: Peter steff De tweet was huge for the box at
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: the World Cup, but I thought Evan was a rung
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: above him and the French sevens coach winning Player of
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: the Year, I thought pretty tough on.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: RUSSI Well, for me, I don't think you can give
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: it to both because both him and Antoine, because I
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: don't have an issued necessarily with Anton departmenting seven's player
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: of the Year because you put him in that environment.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: It elevated them to be Olympic champions. That's the impact
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: he had on that team. But then I don't think
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: he can give it to the coach necessarily at the
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: same time, because it wasn't like it was his coaching.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: It was Anton de Pont's just incredible ability. They got
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: in that Olympic gode. But it came off the bench,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: scored two tries. It wasn't as though I was the
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: coaching that got on there. So Russia Rasmas I think
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: can feel pretty hard done by in that regard. So too,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I think Corey Sweeney can back to back gold medals
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: in the Olympics for the New Zealand women's team doesn't
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: get a look in there. Somehow the French bloke gets it,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: so they always come up with some weird and wonderful
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: things as will play it Rugby awards.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: At least Wallace one. That was a laydown massa for him.
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: Before we move on, we do have one other topic
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: for next year. We have jumped around here, but who's
• 49:20
  Speaker 4: in the firing line for twenty twenty five? Probably you
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: for putting an alarm on the just one of the
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: many contexts calling me.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: They're asking with that Rugby Rick Plocas is going to be.
• 49:31
  Speaker 5: A who's in the firing line?
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: Personally, I think Gats doesn't get fired because he's too expensive.
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: But old uncle Robin christ Church, can.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: We do get Rob to Rob to the valleys and
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Gats to Warriorble to rugby parking?
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: Christ Church to Wales? Want Rob?
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: Does anyone want?
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: Does anyone want Warren?
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: It was a special to see Brad and war back
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: at the Crusaders and he could be a real succession
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: plan in the coming years.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Welcome home, by the way, Thank you. Look, I think
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: I think you're right about they can't afford to Wales.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: Rugby is an absolute state at the moment, all those
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: issues around the women's team and everything going on there.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: The men's team is a basketcase coach by Warren Gatland,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: who's time out of international rugby should have been years ago.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: So I can't see them getting rid of them becausey't
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: simply can't afford it. The Crusader's, on the other hand,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Thomasy Allison was their succession plan.
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: He's now gone.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Oh I'll have a job at the All Blacks, and
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: a permanent one at that because Leon McDonald's left. So
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: I think I think the Crusaders will be better next
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: year for a variety of reasons. But to me it
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: always felt like a two year deal for Robpinnion. That
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: was probably him done and dusted. So they're going to
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: have to look elsewhere. I'll be looking at Joe Schmitt.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: Come on down, Brad Moore, closer to.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: Home, Joe Schmitt. Wallaby's Well, we'll get into this in
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: a moment or two. But if I'm the Crusaders, I'm
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: going to Joe Schmitt AND's going come home, come home
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: to New Zealand.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: He mean he lives in New Zealand.
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: Anyway, great option. Anyway, I'd snap up Joe Schmitt.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: So come on Men's Bridge, if you're listening, get on
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: the bar. We'll take a break, come back with more
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: after this on Rugby Director.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: This is Rugby Direct, a podcast for real rugby fares.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Every try, try ten sixty sec, every tackle, don't pack
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: the tackle?
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: Get up again? Will I take him before our times?
• 51:32
  Speaker 5: It's Rugby Direct.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Welcome back into Rugby Direct time Now for the final
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: four four rugby topics, Liam and I would debate them. Liam,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: will Joe Schmitt stay at the Wallabies beyond the end
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: of the line series.
• 51:49
  Speaker 5: If they beat the Lions? He will? And if they don't,
• 51:53
  Speaker 5: he won't.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: You can you take that long to decide about it?
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: I reckon I'll have to decide in the summertime, like
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: in the coming weeks, because the Australian rugby's, you know,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: off the whole of the back of the lines to it.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: They're gonna have to go straight into a rugby Championship
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: with someone in place, whether it's Joe Schmitt, whether it's
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Stephen Kham, Dan McKellar, Michael Checker was going.
• 52:12
  Speaker 5: To ask you, well, Penny, what's the succession plan for Penny? Good?
• 52:16
  Speaker 5: Good gags, good gags?
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: They don't Well, I suppose they've got a group of
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Australian coaches now back in McKellar and.
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: Marke Kellen is a great option after one year at
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: the Warrior Tis.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I suppose whether they be ready, but I suppose you've
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: got to take these opportunities when they come. Look, I
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: know that Australian Rugby will be desperate to keep Joe
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Schmidty'll throw as much money as they possibly can at
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: him to keep him there. With that's going to be
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: enough is the question for him because.
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: He's got so many.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: He's got issues obviously back at home around his family
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: and things like that, so it needs to be in
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: New Zealand where they can accommodate that. Still, whether he's
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: comfortable doing that for you know, it's very well doing
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: it for eighteen months, but doing it for another two
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: and a half years leading into a World Cup is
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: another question entirely. But you look at the impact he's
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: made on that team. They need to throw the money
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: they need to convince him to stay.
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you're right they they would love to keep him,
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: But I think Joe went into that with a two
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: year rebuild. You know, hit job, get and get out,
• 53:18
  Speaker 4: do what he can. But he's also a guy that's
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: once he's in and he's got his feet under the desk.
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: He's very controlling, very passionate. It will be hard for
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: him to walk away, So I think on the balance
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: of what you're saying, you know, with his family and everything,
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: he probably will leave. But if that does come to pass,
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: I think you'll find it very hard.
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Christy Dorian from the Raw friend of the Pods and
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: obviously with the USPN scrumpop with them earlier in the year,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: suggesting I spoke to him on new stooks he'd been
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: the weekend, suggesting that probably unlikely, more unlikely than not
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: he will re sign. Sorry, more unlikely than likely that
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: he will stay at Rugby Australia. You know, maybe comes
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: back from his end OFAR tour, looks at the progress
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: and goes stick around for another couple of years.
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: Wild card Leel McDonald to the war. It would be
• 54:09
  Speaker 5: a wild card.
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: There were a few whispers they've gone a wee bit quiet,
• 54:14
  Speaker 4: but I would not rule it out.
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: Watch the Space topic number two Sevy Reese news coming
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: before we record this podcast, or a day before we
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: record this podcast that he was discharged with that conviction
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: on the basis of some unruly behavior of the night
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: after Cup day in christ Juts in twenty twenty three.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: So what was that three weeks after the World Cup final?
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: What are his All Blacks prospects heading into next year
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: and would you stick with him, you know, on the
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: basis of this latest indiscretion.
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: I think this latest indiscretion in the context of sev
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: Reese's career is relatively minor. But and look, everyone makes
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: mistakes in life. I'm in glasshouse. You know, everyone deserves
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: second chances. But it's when you start making repeat mistakes
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: that you become a lib liddy. In an employer context,
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: Sevhu's re signed for two years. I think it was
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: around I'm not sure if it was around the time
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: of this incident or just after. So he becomes high
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: risk for New Zealand Rugby and added the time at
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: a time when has placed in the All Blacks is
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: under question. So as his stocks are seemingly declining and
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: you've got these off field incidents, you start to question
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: these things, don't you. Lucky, by all accounts, has made
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: some positive change since this incident, given up alcohol, made
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: some which has had a big impact on him. But
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: it's the fact that he has now been discharged twice
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: that people get their back up about.
• 55:54
  Speaker 5: It's it's the.
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: Preferential the perception of the preference, preferential treatment given to
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: an all black over an ordinary citizen. And it's the
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: twenty eight it's the twenty eighteen incident, in particular, the
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: incident involving his former partner. That one really greats people
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: because if you and I do that, by all accounts,
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: we're convicted.
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: Well do we know that? Though? Do we know that?
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: Because I know for sure?
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: No.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: I think everyone's got this idea that if you're an
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: all black you get preferential treatment. But the thing is
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: that's because it's reporter on and it's publicized. If you
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: were a plumber or an electrician or an accountant, do
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: you get the same treatment? Who knows, But they're not publicized,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: they're not reporter on. So maybe you do get the
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: same treatment.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: Where it does help your case as you have high
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: profile endorsements from coaches and whatnot, and it does genuinely
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: jeopardize your career and that you can't enter some countries
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: with a conviction.
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: You can't.
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: He had a contracts in France and Ireland fall through
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: despite not but despite getting discharged. They didn't want him
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: because of that. Yeah, so that was a moral decision
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: for Conic at the time. So that's where it does
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: benefits or Blacks or sportsmen that do have to travel.
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: Judges take into consideration the impact on their careers. So
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: that's where it does differentiate from a plumber or whoever.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but then you go, does it outweigh the does
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: the charge or the outweigh the consequences? And that's I
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: suppose the only thing around it is if you're a
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: whole profile, then it does you know, a minor and
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: inverted commas and discretion could outweigh could you know, the
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: close coinses could outwigh what was actually what actually happened,
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: And that would not necessarily apply to Joe blogs walking
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: down the street.
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: I's not forget as well.
• 57:44
  Speaker 4: Sorry, I was just gonna say, I think it's the
• 57:46
  Speaker 4: repeat offending and what seven has to do now he's
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: made positive, James has to stay squeaky clean.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Let's not forget as well. Sibery said, probably one of
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: his best super rugby seasons this year. Didn't have a
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: great all Black season and poor game against France, but
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: he was with her was because it was weighing on
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: him and in the background and thinking he had to
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: sort of outperform or whatever it was. But he was
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: actually very good in super Uguba this year, by far
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: away the crusaders best player. So it wasn't as though
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: he wasn't hard. It's fair, but he was good. Rugby
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: was so like it's not as though he's.
• 58:17
  Speaker 5: And performed well against England initially but then tailed off.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: That's right right into our board in a state of flux,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: expecting some news on that front in our Rugby direct
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: off season. I guess Liam, there's some names being bandied about.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: What are you hearing and who would you like to
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: see on the border. Is there a dream appointments beyond
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: one of us two that you'd like.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: To sell the board?
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah?
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: My application didn't make it past his first reading, so
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: tough to say.
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:46
  Speaker 5: I thought I had some friends.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: But Christmas re cardless.
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: It's going to be a very interesting nine person board.
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: A how many of the existing board members come back
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: and there has been a lot of whispers about people applying.
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: Greg Barclay was one. I did a story about having
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: the former ICC chairman, not sure if he he necessarily
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: ticks enough boxes because there's very stringent criteria about having
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: served on a provincial you know board or in governance
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: and stipulations around diversity, whether it's Maldi, Pacifica or gender.
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: So it is a hard board to appoints on merit.
• 59:33
  Speaker 4: There's other names, Yeah, there's other names. David Kirk, former
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: World Cup winning captain minusnez he might have pulled out,
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: but was in the mix. Taine Randall was another who applied,
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: and there's a few whispers about former police boss Andrew
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: Costa Soles Costa and Nathan Guy was another one. Former
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: national MP. So a real cross section of New Zealand society,
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: so interesting to see how that shakes down. And of
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: course COMCO, the separate board responsible for all of New
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: Zealand rugby's revenue. They need a new boss with Craig
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: Fenton exiting as well, so some big appointments in the works.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 5: Venezella Rugby.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, watched the space over summer and finally Liam balance
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: of power where does it lie twelve months or thereabouts
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: on from the Rugby World Cup in the North or
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: in the South.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: No offence citting here, Earliott. It's marginally in the South.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: The spring Boks and World champions and the other the
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: best team in the world by a long way. Argentina
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: were the big movers this year. Slightly disappointing India tour
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: for them that they did push Islands, but they were
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: They were underwhelming against France and I think the All
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: Blacks have a lot of improvement left in them. The
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: Wallabies were up and down, but on the rise. I
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: think Islands are declining. England's are in a bit of
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 4: a state of flux. They lost Felix Jones and their
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 4: coaching team. Big out for them. France very good at home.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: Question marks about them traveling because they just send second
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: string teams away in July. So I think the South
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: edge is it.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: I do think it's South comfortably, to be honest, South
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: Africa tick number one in the world by some way.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: Australia on the rise, the All Blacks begin of year tour.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: As we've discussed England down, Ireland stagnated, Scotland up, France up.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: Wales's basically a Tier two nation so and then you go.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Brett Robinson is also the world rugby cheer. So it's
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: been a great last couple of months of the South. Yeah,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: bring it home, bring it home. Well, speaking of the South.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: That is time for summer in the Southern Hemisphere and
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: time for summer for Rugby Direct. Our final podcast of
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: the year, Liam, it's been a pleasure as always. I
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: think we've moted through about forty plus episodes this year.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Some highlights from the year. Really enjoyed our chat with
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Aaron Smith. If you're at a loss over summer and
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: haven't listened to that one high they recommend going back
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: and listening to that podcast of Aaron Smith roughly middle
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: of the year. I think we spoke to him, enjoyed
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: that one. It's been another year for Rugby Direct.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: Has indeed, it's been good times, good debates, and next
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: year I think we're looking at getting maybe an email or.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: You're moving into the twenty fifth century, we're going to
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: get an email.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: Something for you to come at us, give us some feedback,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: you know, get aggressive, whatever whatever that may be.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 5: Thanks for listening. We appreciate all the feedback.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: And Elliott's informed me he has got his beginning line
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: trim for summer, so I'll try and supply a photo
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: to keep you entertained before our next pod.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: Trimmed and ready to go. What's it? Backsack and crack.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: That's good to god.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 5: You beautiful momentary.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: We'll leave you with that average over summer. Thank you
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: very much.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: We look forward to your company again in February. Big
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: thanks as well to our producer Last and Bars English.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: We're producing this podcast right from February through to December.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: We will see you again next year.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: For more from News Talks B listen live on air
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio