Latest / In the Valley of Giants / Conversing with the Wolf King | Stephen Keech | ITVOG Ep. 26

Transcript

Conversing with the Wolf King | Stephen Keech | ITVOG Ep. 26 · In the Valley of Giants

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  I'm just so fascinated, so just please break it down for me.
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  The impetus of I have some a peace and love that I'm going to
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  share and I'm going to do it in like a heavy metal band and
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  scream at the top of my lung. He.
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  Had decided he was he was going to end his life and gave God one
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  chance on his on shuffle on his iPod and gave God one chance to
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  speak to him. It makes it boring when you're
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  explicit. Yeah.
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  Why is that? That's why Christian movies suck
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  so bad. Hello everyone.
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  Today we're joined by Stephen Keach.
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  Stephen Keach is 3 things. He is the front man for the
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  Christian heavy metal band Haste the Day 2.
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  He's a producer in his own mic of his own music and three, a
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  decent human being. It's great to talk to him.
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  I was really interested to learn from him his process in creating
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  intense metal music. I have no idea what that's like.
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  And two is what's it like doing that in a spiritual fashion.
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  Haste the Day is a Christian metal band that's done a lot of
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  outreach. There are have people listening
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  to music that maybe wouldn't have listened to that sort of
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  religious music otherwise. I thought there was a lot that
• 1:11
  we could learn from that, and he had a lot of wisdom to share.
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  That, I thought was very valuable.
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  In terms of the Jewish scene, we don't really have mellow music.
• 1:18
  At the time of filming I didn't know of any.
• 1:20
  After really doing a little bit of digging I was able to find 2
• 1:23
  bands, Struff and the Flame and The Shems Warrior.
• 1:26
  Other than that we don't really have mellow music.
• 1:28
  So it was very novel for me to speak to Stephen Keach and one's
• 1:32
  not from him and hope you enjoy. This week's episode is sponsored
• 1:36
  by the band Struff and the Flame.
• 1:38
  Start from a Flame is teaching Torah, inspiring souls,
• 1:41
  vanquishing demons, and singing truths from an unlikely team of
• 1:44
  philosophers, artists, and Tell Me To Start From a Flame uses
• 1:47
  eternal wisdom with state-of-the-art tech to get
• 1:49
  truth surging through your veins.
• 1:50
  Available on all major music platforms.
• 1:52
  Links in the description below. Even given Cage, thank you so
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  much for being with us here today.
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  Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
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  So to be honest, I've been dreaming for a long time to
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  speak to Someone Like You. And I think there's so much that
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  I have to learn from, from a guy like you.
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  I think that I find visionaries and artists amazing.
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  I think they find a way to channel what's beyond spiritual
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  in this world, to be able to to give to people, whether they're
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  trying to to channel something spiritual or not.
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  But because of a little bit also of your background, I think your
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  father is a pastor. So you know, spirituality is
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  part of your life. So the combination of that and
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  music just really astounds me. So I'd like to just start off.
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  If you could tell me a little bit about your religious
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  background growing up and your affiliation, that'd be great.
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  Yeah, like you said, my dad is a pastor and a worship leader and
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  for a non denominational church, I grew up, you know, going from
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  tiny church to tiny church. We were never in big churches.
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  But with that said, it's like, you know, I grew up on the
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  worship team like from a very young age.
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  I think I started playing music at church when I was 11 and my
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  entire family was on the work. We were basically the worship
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  team. I played drums and guitar and
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  you know, my my sister played guitar.
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  My other sister, you know, learned piano eventually and but
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  they stay all sang and did all of that.
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  So yeah, so I grew up like kind of in the more charismatic non
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  denominational world and with a very, I think by the time I came
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  around because I'm I'm the last of of three kids.
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  So I'm five years behind my sister.
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  So I was the younger one and by the time I came around, like my
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  parents had learned a lot about grace and maybe shifted from
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  maybe more hardline things to, to just a, a life of, of love
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  and grace and acceptance. And that was really, I think,
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  crucial to how I I came up and how I I formed my world views
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  and yeah, just a good way to grow up and learn how to love
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  people. So but.
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  What do you mean by hardline stuff?
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  And did you, do you remember that shift that happened in your
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  upbringing? I don't really remember it.
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  I mean, maybe a little bit, but I know that my dad grew up in
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  like a house where he wasn't even allowed to like dance like
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  that was considered a sin. And he was, he was raised free
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  will Baptist and that was like a very strict upbringing.
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  Why is dancing? Why is dancing considered
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  descent? I don't know, see, I don't know
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  now, like that's that was never put on me and I don't know,
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  maybe because it leads to sexuality or something.
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  But yeah, then he was he was a lot more hard lined when it came
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  to like, you know, this is what's going to earn your
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  salvation and this is what's going to send you to hell.
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  And as I grew up, you know, that like his message was always
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  about, you know, love and grace and and the people that he chose
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  to bring into his life and still does choose to bring into his
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  life, like speaks to that. Like just he's a very loving and
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  kind person. And so, yeah, at some point it
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  shifted, maybe before I came along.
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  I know that my sisters had had it, you know, slightly different
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  of an experience when my parents were young parents and yeah, so.
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  Is that is it something that that your parents really
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  inculcated in you? Like, are you a very spiritual
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  man? Yeah, definitely.
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  And it's been a, a pretty big part of my life.
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  It's awesome. I have my entire life since I
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  was probably around 5:00 when I started wanting to take it more
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  seriously. And then of course, you know,
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  when you're in. I had my, my hard line days in
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  middle school and early high school where I was like forming
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  my, you know, you have to draw lines when you start, when you
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  start any type of spiritual journey, that's like when you're
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  changing your mindset or whatever, you're drawing some
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  really intense lines in the sand of like, OK, this is, this is my
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  moral boundary. Like I don't cross this
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  boundary. And, you know, event I, I feel
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  like with all as people mature in, in spirituality, you realize
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  that like, you know, it was good that you drew all those lines
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  and also now they can, you know, disperse a little bit and you
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  can have a little bit more grace in your own life.
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  So when you when you got involved with Taste the Day, was
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  that part, Did you do that for the ministry?
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  Like was there a religious push behind it?
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  Did you feel that there was destiny behind you?
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  Yeah, at that time there is. It was like you couldn't really
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  do anything if you were a Christian.
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  You couldn't really do anything that was fun without like
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  validating it in some way. So yeah, we, I, I mean, that's a
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  great question. I think that we put it on
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  ourselves a little bit like where it was like, I mean, it
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  was very important to me to like tell people, you know, about God
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  and stuff, but and it always was important to like for me to show
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  love in that way and express my beliefs and all of that stuff.
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  But I just find it funny now, like we put so much pressure on
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  ourselves and the Christian music industry put a lot of
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  pressure on us. How so Can you open that up a
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  little bit? Yeah.
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  Excuse number one, my total ignorance.
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  But but I'm even more ignorant because I would imagine
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  especially, you know, Christianity, which is a
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  religion that has at least in their core beliefs, lots of love
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  and positivity, why that that wouldn't bleed over to, you
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  know. On the on the surface, yeah, a
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  lot of times on the surface, that's what they want to they
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  want to portray. OK, why is it Is it?
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  Go ahead, unpack it all for me. Yeah, yeah.
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  So I mean, so when I was growing up, it was like, I mean, I was a
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  part of it too. Like, I only listened to
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  Christian music. I only listened to the music
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  that they sold at the Christian bookstore.
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  And I put when I was like young, you know, middle school and
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  early high school, I put so much pressure on these bands that
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  were just kids. They were just kids and they
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  were, you know, making music and going on tour and like having
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  fun and all this stuff. And I put them in my mind in a
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  place of spiritual leadership that they should have never been
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  in where I, I held them at such a high standard for just kids
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  that were just, it's not like they went to seminary.
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  It's not like they went, you know, they were some type of
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  like crazy spiritual leader. Like, they were just kids and we
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  were just kids, you know, too, like in the early touring days.
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  And we really felt that pressure.
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  And I really felt that pressure to uphold this, this piety or
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  whatever, you know, like, I wanted to show that I was like a
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  good Christian and I was worthy of this.
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  Weird Christian music leadership situation and that could I saw
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  that backfire and so many of my friends in the industry, you
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  know there was no room for questioning.
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  There was no room for like learning a new worldview.
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  There was no room for to be a kid, you know, there was no room
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  to be a in your early 20s. There was no room to like learn
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  your boundaries and all of that stuff.
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  It was just like, and that came a lot from the fans and it even
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  still a little bit. Oh yeah.
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  Like if you had a misstep. I remember there was there was
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  this one comment on one of her songs where a person thought
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  that I thought that I said the word BITCH, OK?
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  And it wasn't true. I mean, I didn't, but I was
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  screaming. So like, you know, you can't,
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  you can't really understand what I was saying.
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  And he lit up the Internet with like, I can't believe these
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  guys. They say that they're Christian,
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  they say that they do this, but they're just leading people
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  astray. You know, it's just like, it's
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  just a really. And that there is a billion
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  examples but. I mean, why can't, why can't,
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  why couldn't have just been that you're trying like you have a
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  skill and you're passionate about it, you know, and you love
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  God, and so you're trying to to spread God in your own way.
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  And you're not perfect, but you know who's perfect?
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  No, none of us are perfect. Yeah.
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  Why? Why is that not more of a
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  standard view? I'm like, what you're telling me
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  is a little bit shocking. Like, why?
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  Why do you have to be perfect if you're in, you know, the
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  industry? You know, I asked the same
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  question and, and I think that it's shifted a lot and hopefully
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  people kind of understand that. Now I know that it's a lot less
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  popular because there is a there is also like this because of
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  what I explained about the Christian music bookstore, like
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  right, like either Christian bookstore, like you could, a lot
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  of people only bought music from the Christian bookstore so that
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  you could know that it was Christian, right?
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  And so there was a big pressure too from the industry to label
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  yourself as a Christian band, even if it's like loose
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  affiliation, right? Why?
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  So that you could sell, sell more records, you know, And it
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  was like on on solid-state or Tooth and Nail or any of these
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  other like Christian labels. You kind of, it was just kind of
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  like don't ask, don't tell. Like just label yourself as a
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  Christian. Like just label yourself as a
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  Christian band. And, you know, try not to.
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  Cuss and have the image. Yeah, like so like have the
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  image and just push it and do whatever you want.
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  We don't care. Yeah.
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  And there was, I mean, I, I saw a lot of that as well, you know,
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  like bands that were just kind of loosely affiliated with
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  Christianity. And then all of that same
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  pressure that I was just talking about, we put on these people,
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  too, which just seems like unfair because they're just a
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  band trying to play some music. So I don't know.
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  It was just a really interesting way to start playing music and
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  see kind of the underbelly of this industry, that not
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  everything was exactly what it seemed.
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  And. And it kind of still is that
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  way, but yeah. Is there a way to change that?
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  Yeah. And I, I mean, I think, I think
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  it's just. It just sounds like a shame.
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  It just, you know, it sounds like they're super talented
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  people, I'm sure like you out there that just want to, you
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  know, share something really deep and meaningful to them.
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  And they might not be Moses, but yeah, that I'm not sure that
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  really matters if you're just trying to do the best that you
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  can. I mean, one more would God want
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  from us. My father always says the wisest
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  thing is ever told me. He says always do your best.
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  Don't do less than your best because you can do your best,
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  but never do better than your best because you can't do better
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  than your best, right? Yeah, that's really, that's,
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  that's great. And I I think that that's true.
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  And I think that, you know, there was a big thing like an
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  youth group growing up just, you know, I had youth pastors that
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  had us burn our secular CDs like insane.
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  That seems like, you know, that's seems like
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  authoritarianism, like it's just art, like, except the art is art
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  and and if you don't want to ingest it, if you don't want to
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  put it in your body, if you don't want to put it in your
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  head, then don't like you don't have to burn it.
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  So I think it starts there for me where it's like spiritual
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  leaders should be more clear about.
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  Art be more clear about what what to expect from people's art
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  and how to how to view it, how to listen to it, how to process
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  art in a way that's like art isn't going to like send you
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  down a wrong path if your mindset in it is right, which is
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  like, let's view it and let's view it in a way that we see
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  into this person and let's let it change our worldview in a way
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  that like we can see how this person views the world, right?
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  Like it doesn't have to be like, oh, now this is like biblical
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  truth. And these lyrics are like, we
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  have to put them up against like the greatest theologians.
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  Like it's, yeah, we're processing it and we're, we're
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  testing it and we're all that. But we're also just seeing what
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  the person is going through. We're seeing the questions that
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  the person is asking, the artist is asking, all that stuff.
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  So. Like for me, I could just share
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  with you person, I think they're gradients.
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  Like what I tell my children, Like if my children wanted to,
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  you know, listen, at least for me, heaven forbid to like rap
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  with cursing in it. So I wouldn't allow that.
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  But what I tell them to burn all the things that they owned.
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  I'm not sure I tell them to burn everything that they owned.
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  But like I would say, look, this is I would explain to them that
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  this is really bad for you and that here's a whole, but it's
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  not, it's not things aren't black and white.
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  It's like, you know, there are there's even within Jewish
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  music. So there's Jewish rap, which
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  might be considered a little bit more rocky than more of the
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  really classical old stuff. But maybe you don't want to
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  listen to the classical stuff and that's not you.
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  So again, it kind of goes back to what I said before about it's
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  just trying your best. SO people have all different
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  forms of expression and you can tap into whatever thing that you
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  want to tap into. But I don't think we request, I
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  don't, at least personally, I'm not sure that we should request
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  that every one of our artists, and not just in the music
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  industry, in any industry to be perfectional so we can access
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  it. I also don't think it's a
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  realistic export expectation for our kids to be like it's either
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  zero or one because if you just walk like their entire world off
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  they're just going to access it anyway eventually, especially in
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  this day and age. Yeah, totally.
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  And art is a way for us to connect.
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  And if we are walling ourselves up off to Only Connect with
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  people who, you know, we view as perfect, then again, our, our
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  understanding of the people that God created is going to be very
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  limited. And our ability to accept
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  people, our ability to to speak into people's lives or to love
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  people in general is going to be extremely limited.
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  And yeah. And art is just like a really
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  great way to connect with people and to see into their soul a
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  little bit, you know? And yeah.
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  OK, so let me play it back again to the beginning of the question
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  of, OK, so part of you joining Haste today was a spiritual
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  journey for you. And did you feel like a sense of
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  fulfillment, you know, while you're in the band?
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  Like, did you feel like you were spreading the ministry?
• 19:05
  Yeah, yeah, definitely. And good.
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  Yeah. I mean we got to talk.
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  I got to talk to a ton of people individually and and on stage
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  and stuff. I think that in especially at
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  that time, it was just like a Christian metal band was just
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  kind of like it was kind of a newer concept.
• 19:30
  Maybe it had grown, but the idea had grown.
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  But it was definitely weird to stand on stage at a metal show.
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  Like, you know, when we're on tour with a bunch of, you know,
• 19:43
  bands that were not spiritual in any way.
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  And I'm just standing on stage saying, hey, you were loved
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  like, God loves you like, And it's just like a weird message
• 19:54
  to hear at a metal show. And everything is like, you
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  know. Like that, it's just, but I
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  think that's awesome. So that's, that's actually
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  that's, that's one thing I really want to break down.
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  So you're you're there, you're you feel like you're spreading
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  the word of God, the ministry, you're in it, you're feeling
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  great about it. You're changing people's lives
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  and the way that you've chosen to do that is in and I don't
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  mean this in a negative sense. I really don't, but the most
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  violent way possible. You're not hurting anyone.
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  Like no one's like you're, you're, you're trying to
• 20:24
  entertain people. It's clean, right?
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  But why? What was the I'm just so
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  fascinated. So just please break it down for
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  me. The impetus of I have some peace
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  and love that I'm going to share, and I'm going to do it in
• 20:36
  like a heavy metal band and scream at the top of my lungs
• 20:39
  that I'm so curious about. Yeah, I mean, I, I kind of
• 20:43
  always connected with heavier or more emotional music, especially
• 20:49
  as a spiritual outlet because it's so serious.
• 20:54
  Like, you know, it's just like it is so raw and emotional and
• 21:04
  cathartic that it just matched very well to me in a way of like
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  a way of worship that was like very true, very like I'm not
• 21:19
  going to sugarcoat it. I'm not going to.
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  This is exactly the way that I feel or this is like, it was
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  very and it was even almost reverent in a way that it was
• 21:32
  just like, there's no, we're not joking here.
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  You know what I mean? Like it was like, this is real
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  and true. And it's so I was always drawn
• 21:41
  to like more serious sounding music, I guess.
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  And even like in my musical pursuits now, like I'm a, I'm a
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  film composer, so I'm doing, you know, I don't really do comedy.
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  I I really enjoy, you know, dark and dramatic music.
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  And it's like a form of I don't, it's a form of reverence to me
• 22:11
  and seeing just expressing that, that sound, I guess.
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  Did you, did you see that sound affect people spiritually, not
• 22:25
  just emotionally, not just for pleasure?
• 22:29
  I think so, yeah. I mean, I think that that was
• 22:33
  like it. I mean, also for me going to
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  metal shows or hardcore shows or punk shows or whatever, there
• 22:40
  was, there's a spiritual element for me in the kind of controlled
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  violence, as you said, like in the mosh pit, in the like, in
• 22:54
  that group of people, like squeezing together, you know?
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  And like, I was a big fan of Zao and that really Norma Jean
• 23:08
  stuff. And like there was something
• 23:10
  very spiritual about that to me. I mean, of course, Zao, like
• 23:15
  their early stuff was like spiritual warfare.
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  That's what I saw it as. It was like, you know, I was
• 23:20
  like a young, charismatic kid. I was like, yeah, this is
• 23:23
  awesome. Yeah.
• 23:27
  So I'll tell you, I'll tell you an interesting story about, I
• 23:32
  don't know, maybe it's 40 years ago.
• 23:34
  So if you go back 40 years, Jewish music is one thing over
• 23:38
  and over and over again. So there might be different
• 23:40
  artists, but it's exactly the same thing.
• 23:43
  So there is there is an artist by the name of I think his name,
• 23:47
  I think it was schlock rock. But he was like, Hey, what I
• 23:49
  want to do is I want to take some more of the popular music
• 23:53
  that's working and, you know, not Jewish culture.
• 23:56
  And I want to, you know, add some fuse lyrics to it and just
• 23:59
  which was like, that's literally dipping your toe into doing
• 24:01
  something else because you're copying, you're not yet like,
• 24:04
  you know, flourishing on your own.
• 24:05
  And the few people that he spoke to were like super against it's,
• 24:09
  it's never going to work. No one's going to care.
• 24:11
  It's also horrible, terrible idea, but he's like, I'm going
• 24:15
  to do it anyway. And it was like really
• 24:16
  successful because it was a whole new way of expression,
• 24:19
  etcetera. And so all the people in the
• 24:22
  beginning that came out that were against what he was doing,
• 24:25
  we're all all of a sudden like, hey, this is a great idea and we
• 24:28
  love what you're doing, etcetera.
• 24:29
  And from that, we're now a whole bunch of genres that we have now
• 24:33
  that heck, if you would have even asked 10-15 years ago, we
• 24:36
  would have just think that you were joking.
• 24:38
  So one of them is rap. So Jewish rap sounds like
• 24:41
  totally antithetical to, you know, if you go 20 years, like,
• 24:44
  what the heck is, is Jewish rap? But we have some pretty decent,
• 24:48
  you know, Jewish rap. So I think that again, it's that
• 24:52
  it's that ability to, to, to, to give something over in a totally
• 24:56
  different way that has a totally different feel.
• 24:58
  What I've been lamenting for the past 15 years is I saw what
• 25:02
  Haste the Day did a little bit to the Christian world.
• 25:05
  And I think that there were a lot of bands that kind of copied
• 25:08
  you OK afterwards. And I'll and, and have, you
• 25:11
  know, a tremendous movement. And by the way, it's not like
• 25:13
  Haste the Day is not unpopular now.
• 25:14
  And you're coming out with a new album, right?
• 25:16
  I think the center. So you know that it's you're,
• 25:18
  you're still influencing the world and people really like
• 25:20
  that. Why can't we have that sort of
• 25:23
  thing as well? Like I, I do think there's so
• 25:25
  much value in being able to, to spread God's work and, and not
• 25:29
  just one particular way. So I think it's awesome that the
• 25:32
  way that you wanted to do it, as you saw a whole, there was no
• 25:35
  one that was, that was sharing this message in a really deep,
• 25:40
  you know, dark roast sort of way.
• 25:42
  And you did it and the response was overwhelming.
• 25:45
  I think that's totally amazing. I just feel it's fantastic.
• 25:49
  And the fact that you had so much reach, it's just wild.
• 25:52
  But did you know that was going to happen?
• 25:55
  I know, yeah. No, I mean, I, so I joined the
• 25:58
  band a little later and they were already kind of, they're
• 26:03
  already doing that. My band that I started when I
• 26:07
  was in high school, we, you know, we played all the way up
• 26:10
  until I joined his today. What band was that it?
• 26:14
  Was a band called New Day Awakening and you know, we were
• 26:19
  we wanted to sound like Haste today because we're all big fans
• 26:22
  and but that's what we were doing too.
• 26:25
  It was like this also, you know, a ministry of sorts.
• 26:31
  And we so we saw like bands like Haste the day we saw bands like
• 26:39
  Zeo, we saw bands that were playing heavier music and, you
• 26:45
  know, doing it in a spiritual way.
• 26:48
  And we just were connected with it.
• 26:53
  We just loved it and it it helped us express our faith and
• 26:57
  all of that. But I don't think that we
• 27:00
  realized how much of A reach it would be.
• 27:02
  You know, we didn't realize like with Hayes today when I joined
• 27:07
  his today, they're getting more popular, but still I didn't
• 27:14
  think that we'd be able to go to the places that we went and play
• 27:18
  with the bands that we played with.
• 27:20
  I mean, my second tour was with, it was the Bleeding Through
• 27:24
  Truth tour. And so that was with Every Time
• 27:26
  I Die Between The Buried of Me and Bleeding Through.
• 27:30
  And they were, I listened to all of those bands.
• 27:33
  They're in my mind. They were huge, right?
• 27:36
  We got to open that tour and it was just mind blowing to me.
• 27:43
  So yeah, we did not expect it, no.
• 27:46
  Do people ever say thank you? Yeah, yeah.
• 27:52
  We get some really cool stories from people who were at our
• 27:58
  shows, you know, or heard our lyrics or whatever that.
• 28:04
  Can you share one? Does any come to mind?
• 28:07
  One of them, and I don't remember the person's name, but
• 28:11
  he heard this. I find this very interesting.
• 28:14
  He heard the song off of he had decided he was he was going to
• 28:23
  end his life and gave God one chance on his on shuffle on his
• 28:33
  iPod and gave God one chance to speak to him or he was going to
• 28:39
  end his life. And the song that came up was
• 28:42
  our song Akeldema, which was this like, it's funny because I
• 28:51
  don't, I remember it was on Press the hinges on my first
• 28:54
  record. And the lyrics like are about
• 28:59
  somebody feeling guilty about something.
• 29:03
  And I don't even remember what it was about.
• 29:05
  But he heard a line in that song and I don't remember which one.
• 29:13
  It was probably one that I didn't intend to be like a life
• 29:19
  changing line, just one that I wrote down because I thought it
• 29:22
  sounded cool or whatever, which was a lot of my early lyrics,
• 29:26
  just like, oh, this sounds cool. Let's write this down, you know,
• 29:31
  and God use that line and save this guy's life.
• 29:36
  He that's amazing. It spoke to whatever it was, it
• 29:40
  spoke to him and God use it to to speak individually to this
• 29:46
  one guy and, and he messaged us and, and said thank you.
• 29:50
  And that's a really heavy thing. That's like a heavy thing to
• 29:55
  carry is like a maybe. I think I maybe heard that story
• 29:58
  when I was 20 or 21 and I was just like, whoa.
• 30:03
  And it's like one of those things where it does two things.
• 30:06
  It puts a little bit of pressure on you of like, Oh my gosh, my
• 30:10
  lyrics matter. Like what if, what if I write
• 30:13
  something and it hasn't a negative effect, but it also has
• 30:17
  a little bit of a freeing feeling of like, OK, it's in
• 30:22
  God's hands. Like I just need to express,
• 30:29
  express what I'm expressing and, and let God be God.
• 30:34
  And like, you know, he can decide if a lyric is going to
• 30:39
  change somebody's life. It's not, it's not up to me.
• 30:42
  Like it's I didn't do that. That was God who did that.
• 30:45
  But it was through something that I wrote down.
• 30:48
  And yeah, it's still kind of blows my mind.
• 30:56
  Your father, you know your husband, and you're no longer
• 31:00
  20. No, no I'm not.
• 31:04
  How does that change in terms of the spiritual expression?
• 31:06
  You're still doing music, so do you feel that that your
• 31:10
  expression feels different and your goals are a little bit
• 31:12
  different in music? I think they're more relaxed.
• 31:18
  I think I've learned that lesson of like God be God.
• 31:21
  And I don't put any pressure on myself necessarily to like
• 31:25
  change people's lives or I just, I want to express like, I use
• 31:33
  lyrics, like my, my lyrics, my music to sort out my own
• 31:38
  feelings, to sort out my own questions and all that.
• 31:43
  And I share that with the world because that's my heart.
• 31:46
  And I kind of have this idea of, you know, if God's going to use
• 31:55
  it, then he's going to use it like, and, and we don't, we
• 31:59
  actually don't consider ourselves a Christian band at
• 32:02
  this point, although several of us are Christian, But we make it
• 32:10
  a point to still have that foundation of love.
• 32:13
  And, and we make it a, a point to express that love at our
• 32:21
  shows with people individually. Like, so we are always like at
• 32:25
  the merch table or coming, we'll come out into the crowd after
• 32:28
  the show and talk to people and just like show that love as best
• 32:35
  we can. And for some of us it is, it is
• 32:38
  through the lens of Christianity and some just spirituality or
• 32:43
  whatever, or just a genuine care for humanity.
• 32:46
  So yeah, I think we've taken the pressure off a little bit and
• 32:52
  just allowed us to be who we are in the band and.
• 32:56
  Of course, that's probably, that's probably, that's probably
• 32:58
  quite freeing. Oh.
• 32:59
  Yeah, absolutely. It's free and it's there's no
• 33:04
  pressure to to do anything specific.
• 33:09
  And it kind of, and it's funny because it doesn't actually
• 33:14
  change what we do. Like I still write from a very
• 33:19
  spiritual place. I write my like my lyrics from a
• 33:22
  very spiritual place. Brennan.
• 33:23
  Yeah, but it must be nice. It must be.
• 33:25
  It must be nice not to do that feeling you have a gun to your
• 33:27
  head though. Exactly.
• 33:29
  Yeah, Like not to feel like somebody is watching and judging
• 33:32
  my every move, you know, because there were times where I was
• 33:37
  writing and I was just like, how is this going to be perceived or
• 33:40
  whatever? Like now I'm like, I want you to
• 33:42
  perceive it, how you're going to perceive it.
• 33:44
  And I realized also that like lyrics, unless you like
• 33:49
  explicitly say something, which then it kind of takes the fun
• 33:53
  out of it for me. Like it's just when it's too
• 33:56
  literal. It's like, is this even art
• 33:58
  anymore? But I want people to think about
• 34:02
  it. I want people to ponder it.
• 34:04
  I want, I want people to look at it through their own worldview.
• 34:08
  And I, I think that, that it's just like the, the, and I'm not
• 34:16
  comparing what I'm writing to the parables of Jesus, but
• 34:19
  that's one thing that I really love about the parables of Jesus
• 34:22
  is that they're, they are so wide and your interpretation of
• 34:32
  them. And he didn't explicitly say,
• 34:37
  like if he, if he were to just explicitly say it wouldn't be a
• 34:41
  parable anymore, right? You wouldn't be able to apply it
• 34:44
  to your worldview. You wouldn't be able to apply it
• 34:47
  to what you're going through. And yeah, I just like that the
• 34:55
  how it can morph and change depending on who it is, who's
• 34:59
  listening to it and who it is, who's like taking it in.
• 35:04
  It might challenge them. It might, it might, it might
• 35:09
  help them through something. Are you OK?
• 35:13
  Are you OK with the fact that they'll hear some of your lyrics
• 35:16
  and they'll completely come out with something that is not what
• 35:18
  you had in mind at all? Oh yeah, they always do.
• 35:21
  Are you cool with that? Sure.
• 35:25
  How would how would you be able to know then what, what you
• 35:28
  really meant if we ever really wanted to find out, Steven?
• 35:32
  I mean, I'll answer questions about it, what I mean, but I
• 35:39
  don't think that anyone's going to get fully.
• 35:42
  It's like it's still obvious enough to like steer it, but
• 35:48
  it's open enough to at least. I like to try to leave it open
• 35:55
  enough to apply to a bunch of different scenarios, so.
• 35:59
  You mentioned before that it makes it boring when you're
• 36:02
  explicit. Yeah.
• 36:04
  Why is that? It's why Christian movies suck
• 36:06
  so bad. I'll have to take your word for
• 36:09
  it. But you're not a subscriber to
• 36:13
  Angel TV. No, sorry.
• 36:16
  Neither am I Yeah. It's like once you like, once
• 36:25
  you have some kind of agenda, you lose the part where it helps
• 36:36
  people think through things. Like you want somebody to be
• 36:41
  able to when you're when you're expressing an idea, you want
• 36:44
  someone to be able to chew on it themselves or else it's just
• 36:47
  gonna, it's gone like, oh, I see what you're doing.
• 36:52
  OK, like. Why is that gone?
• 36:55
  Why can't you just like, paint an amazing picture?
• 36:58
  No, I mean you can, but there's like.
• 37:01
  But that bores you, yeah. A little bit.
• 37:04
  All right, that's fine. I'm just curious.
• 37:07
  Yeah, when it's just like on the surface, like I like the deeper
• 37:11
  stuff. I mean, let's let's talk about
• 37:13
  the Mona Lisa for a second, all right?
• 37:15
  Like the real magic in that painting is not the fact that he
• 37:20
  painted a person, right? The real magic is in the facial
• 37:26
  expression, trying to figure out what that facial expression
• 37:31
  means, which we don't know, right?
• 37:34
  We'll debate till the end of time.
• 37:36
  Yeah, and it change, it's like it changes depending on when
• 37:39
  you're looking at it or like what?
• 37:41
  Like, oh, she knows something I don't like.
• 37:43
  It's just like it's a that's the interesting thing.
• 37:47
  Or it's like, what is she thinking?
• 37:50
  Like it's not just like a that's the real question, you know what
• 37:56
  I mean? Like it's not on the surface.
• 37:58
  It's a, it's a deeper meaning in that painting.
• 38:00
  That's why it's so famous. It's like actually kind of small
• 38:04
  and unimpressive until you like look into her face and then you
• 38:11
  start realizing like, what are you?
• 38:12
  What's what is this? Well, to be honest, I'll say
• 38:16
  something a little boring, but I think it's so true.
• 38:17
  I think that's what kids are. You know, when they're like 5
• 38:21
  and they bring you something back.
• 38:22
  I think that's such an important time in a kid's life.
• 38:25
  And we're learning about expression.
• 38:26
  Whether they're going to be an artist or not doesn't matter
• 38:28
  because they're going to bring you a little blue blotch on a
• 38:31
  piece of paper and they're going to say, don't you see my
• 38:33
  airplane? Yeah.
• 38:35
  And instead of just saying, oh, wow, that's great.
• 38:37
  I think it's be like, where's your airplane?
• 38:38
  Oh, my airplane is here. Oh, I see.
• 38:40
  That's why it's on the top part of the paper, right.
• 38:43
  I think that that that is expression, right.
• 38:45
  Taking taking a photo to just just show that you know there
• 38:49
  was a person there isn't really that expressive.
• 38:52
  Right, yeah, I mean, and, and the cool thing about a, the way
• 38:57
  a child draws, like I've got both of my children draw all the
• 39:00
  time. It's really interesting because
• 39:03
  they don't draw what's in front of them.
• 39:06
  They draw their perception of what's in front of them.
• 39:10
  So like you could look so like, let's say they're drawing this
• 39:16
  coffee cup, right. And it's like clearly 3D,
• 39:20
  there's a curve here, you know, in perspective, right?
• 39:23
  But that's not how they're going to draw it.
• 39:25
  They're going to draw their perception of a coffee cup in
• 39:29
  their mind. That's interesting.
• 39:31
  So when you're seeing like a child give you a piece of
• 39:36
  artwork that they've made, you're also seeing into how they
• 39:39
  perceive it and how they can best express it, right?
• 39:43
  Like if they just drew what was in front of them, it'd be like
• 39:46
  insanely amazing, right? I mean, you have to learn
• 39:49
  techniques to be able to do that.
• 39:50
  But because of their limitation, they have to use their
• 39:55
  imagination as well to like express what it is that they're
• 40:01
  seeing onto the page. And I I think that's true with a
• 40:06
  lot of art, like with all art, we are expressing our perception
• 40:13
  of the thing. And that's all we can do really
• 40:16
  like and we can copy what's in front of us, yes, but also we
• 40:21
  have to use our imagination to fill in the gaps that, you know,
• 40:25
  might. So I interviewed, I interviewed
• 40:27
  a really famous artist couple months back.
• 40:30
  Do you think there's such a thing as bad art?
• 40:35
  I mean, yeah. Well, why if it's just
• 40:40
  perception? I I recognize it now is bad art
• 40:46
  for me not meant for me. Like, OK.
• 40:53
  And I try not to use that term bad art.
• 40:58
  I mean, I've toured with some bands that I would maybe
• 41:01
  consider bad art, but but they have lots of fans, you know?
• 41:08
  And so it's for somebody, just not for me.
• 41:15
  Interesting. But yeah.
• 41:18
  Well, so I'll open that up a little bit because that was
• 41:20
  interesting. It would you say what the
• 41:22
  implication of the statement was is that you're more interested
• 41:25
  in the message that you're going to get across or how you're
• 41:27
  going to do it versus the fandom and how many people listen to
• 41:31
  music? OK.
• 41:31
  Has that changed in the beginning?
• 41:33
  Was it also like that or was it no more about getting more
• 41:36
  views, more listens, more people to buy your albums, etcetera?
• 41:41
  To my detriment, it has always not been that important.
• 41:45
  What? Why is that?
• 41:46
  Why is that bad? Why is that too?
• 41:47
  No, it's not bad at all. It's just funny because there
• 41:50
  are times I recognize now if I when I look back, if I just made
• 41:53
  the same thing over and over again, we would have been a more
• 41:56
  successful band. Like, do you feel that your band
• 41:59
  wasn't successful? I know this that I joined the
• 42:05
  band and we had the best selling record that we had ever had.
• 42:09
  And then the next one was way lower than that.
• 42:13
  And then the next one after that was even like half of the
• 42:17
  previous one. And then the the next one after
• 42:20
  that was just a fraction. Now there are many reasons that
• 42:24
  that could have happened. And I, I realize that it's not
• 42:27
  like it's not me, you know, I didn't do that.
• 42:33
  But there is, I, I look at other bands that are in that genre
• 42:39
  that have made the same exact album 10 times and they are
• 42:45
  huge, right? But they're, they have had 0
• 42:52
  artistic fluctuation. It is the same album, the same
• 42:56
  lyrics, the same message, the same everything.
• 43:00
  Like just in different forms of the template and they've been
• 43:05
  very successful. Now that bores me and I will
• 43:09
  never be like that, but even like as a business owner now
• 43:13
  like. Good for you, Steven.
• 43:14
  I think that's awesome. No good for you.
• 43:16
  Seriously. You just care about doing what's
• 43:17
  fun. That's great.
• 43:18
  Yeah. I care about what's doing right
• 43:20
  or what's right for me, you know, and what's right for me is
• 43:23
  I switched up all the time. I, I play in a bunch of
• 43:27
  different genres of music and I, I explore a bunch of different
• 43:32
  avenues. Like I, I do visual art on my
• 43:35
  own because it's fun. Like I don't care if anybody
• 43:38
  sees it or likes it. And I've just learned over the
• 43:42
  years that, oh, OK, so this album cycle, we spent two years
• 43:47
  making this album and it was fun.
• 43:49
  It was deep. It was.
• 43:54
  For someone that knows nothing about music production, why does
• 43:57
  it take two years to make, you know, like 20 minutes of music?
• 44:01
  Well, it's around 40 minutes of music, but.
• 44:04
  Excuse me. I'm sorry.
• 44:05
  I apologize. Forgive me.
• 44:06
  But we all live in different states, we all have jobs, we all
• 44:11
  have families or other responsibilities that we need to
• 44:16
  attend to. And so this is very much a part
• 44:19
  time thing for us. I was producing the record from
• 44:25
  my home studio where we are right now.
• 44:28
  But I, we, you know, we're just all busy.
• 44:34
  So we'd write a demo or whatever, send it out to the
• 44:36
  group and kind of more it morph and change and everybody would
• 44:40
  give their two cents. It took me forever to write
• 44:43
  lyrics because it's like, you know, what do you write about?
• 44:47
  I just, I just got home from dropping my kids off at school
• 44:51
  and like there's laundry that needs to be folded.
• 44:54
  And it's like, what do I, you know, it's like I'm in this
• 44:57
  weird phase of life. That's like, what do I even
• 44:59
  write about? Write about.
• 45:01
  And then, you know, of course, once I figured out what to write
• 45:04
  about, it came flowing out of me.
• 45:06
  But like, it just takes a long time now, you know, we aren't,
• 45:14
  we had no deadline. Like it doesn't matter at this
• 45:19
  point. We know that we're not going to
• 45:21
  get huge. We know that we're not going to
• 45:22
  like land a single on the radio and, you know, make $1,000,000.
• 45:27
  We know that that's out. Like we at least aren't pursuing
• 45:34
  it. Nobody, nobody really wants,
• 45:38
  none of us want to like get on the road full time.
• 45:40
  Like that's too much like. Why can't you?
• 45:44
  Why can't you just sell a million records and not make it
• 45:46
  on the road? I mean, I, that'd be great, but
• 45:49
  the pursuit of it is in vain. I think like, and so we just
• 45:55
  want to make the best music that we can.
• 45:57
  And so now anyway, what I'm, what I'm saying is like now
• 46:01
  we're in this like releasing phase, which is cool, but it's
• 46:07
  my least favorite part. Why?
• 46:10
  Oh, because you're not creating. You're just like, wait.
• 46:11
  I'm not creating anymore. Now I'm doing Instagram posts
• 46:14
  and we've got a, we're filming a music video tomorrow in Atlanta.
• 46:20
  And so it's like, OK, now we I've got to try and look, make
• 46:24
  my 31 year old self look cool on camera.
• 46:28
  Take the knee brace off when you do it.
• 46:33
  And yeah, it's just this is funny.
• 46:37
  Like it's, it's like now they're like work begins now.
• 46:40
  It's like all the fun's kind of over now.
• 46:43
  We get to play some shows soon and that will be a lot of fun to
• 46:46
  play play shows with my friends. But even if we were playing in a
• 46:51
  bar to 10 people, it's still be fun, you know?
• 46:55
  Like I just don't care. I don't care if if if it does
• 47:01
  really well or if it doesn't because I did what I wanted to
• 47:05
  do like, you know what I mean? Like, no, I so to be honest,
• 47:09
  you're saying this so like off the cuff, I so admire that
• 47:12
  because I mean, it was my next question for you, but I feel
• 47:14
  like I already know the answer. But like you're not, it doesn't
• 47:17
  sound like, you know, money or famous talking to you, which I
• 47:20
  think is that's awesome. I think if if I feel like
• 47:24
  artists go astray, no matter what field they're in, is
• 47:28
  because they're thinking about how much money am I going to
• 47:31
  make, I'm afraid of losing that position, etcetera.
• 47:34
  And I think you're just your best self and you don't care
• 47:36
  about any of that and you just care about doing the right
• 47:38
  thing. Yeah, I mean, I agree.
• 47:40
  I mean, I see so many things. I mean, look, there's things
• 47:46
  that make tons of money and then artists who make ton of a ton of
• 47:49
  money who are incredible and they just keep putting out
• 47:52
  awesome stuff and it's really cool.
• 47:56
  But I don't think that they're pursuing that money necessarily.
• 47:59
  Like I think that they're making stuff that's true to themselves
• 48:02
  and people are resonating with it.
• 48:04
  And that's all I can hope for is make something that's true to
• 48:09
  me, make something that's true to us as a band.
• 48:11
  Because like this album really represents all of us as a band.
• 48:14
  And I, I feel that when I'm real, like we're releasing it
• 48:21
  into the world, it's like, cool, This Is Us and take it or leave
• 48:24
  it. Like if you like it, then
• 48:26
  awesome, then it's for you. If you don't, then it's not for
• 48:30
  you. Like you don't have to worry
• 48:32
  about it. Just like go about your day, you
• 48:35
  know and and also no good. No, finish your thought please.
• 48:41
  I'm sorry. I was just going to say also
• 48:42
  it's so hard to make money in in music now that like.
• 48:48
  I'll take your word for it because the only instrument I
• 48:50
  can play is the kazoo, so. Hey, that's it.
• 48:53
  I mean, that can be a very fun instrument.
• 48:55
  OK, when you go on tour, you give me a call.
• 48:57
  Yeah, OK, will do. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those
• 49:03
  things where it's you've got streaming, you've got Spotify
• 49:08
  who completely underpays its artists.
• 49:12
  You know, I don't know if you're familiar with like fact that you
• 49:16
  get paid .00 cents .008 cents per stream as an artist.
• 49:23
  Like it is so hard to make money and unless you're touring full
• 49:29
  time, unless you're like especially like with a band of.
• 49:33
  Versus versus when you were a kid, is it because, is it
• 49:35
  because we're no longer selling records and it's all digital?
• 49:38
  Is that why? Yeah, that's a big part of it.
• 49:40
  I mean, you don't make any money with digital.
• 49:43
  I mean, we could, we can make a tiny bit of money selling vinyl,
• 49:47
  but it's still like not that much.
• 49:51
  So why doesn't someone make a more artist friendly platform?
• 49:55
  I mean, I'd love that, but it's the people with lots of money
• 50:00
  that make the platforms and get it into people's hands that like
• 50:05
  to keep their money. Unless we had unless we had a
• 50:07
  Steven Keach of Spotify. I mean, problem with that is
• 50:13
  that it wouldn't be in enough people's hands.
• 50:19
  I hear that. But there, I mean, there are
• 50:20
  people who are trying to change that and I think that's great.
• 50:23
  And I and there are platforms that make it easier for artists
• 50:27
  when you're a smaller band. Like like we have 6 people in
• 50:30
  the band. So we are, we divvy up what we
• 50:35
  make amongst 6 people. So it's if there were, if it was
• 50:41
  just one solo artist, right, it could be a lot easier.
• 50:45
  If it was just two people, it would be a lot easier.
• 50:48
  You have like, what's that guy's name?
• 50:52
  Jack? Jack Conte.
• 50:54
  Is that his name from from Patreon?
• 50:58
  He's the CEO of Patreon and they do some really great stuff for
• 51:03
  artists. And I think that they have a
• 51:06
  really great platform for artists who want to connect with
• 51:10
  their fan base and actually make some money.
• 51:13
  And, you know, it's a little harder when you have 6 people
• 51:17
  and, you know, trying to figure 6 people and only a few of them
• 51:23
  doing the majority of them. But with that said, it's like,
• 51:31
  you know, what are we doing this for?
• 51:33
  We're not doing this to make money.
• 51:34
  We all have jobs. Like we're doing this to have
• 51:38
  fun with our friends and to put out music that matters to us, to
• 51:46
  express whatever it is we need to express.
• 51:49
  And after that, like, like I said, it's in God's hands.
• 51:54
  Like let him. Do it.
• 51:57
  What? What are what are you expressing
• 51:59
  in this album? OK, I have a lot of frustrations
• 52:08
  with the Christian Church as a whole, the American Christian
• 52:14
  Church. We Jews also have the
• 52:18
  frustration with the Christian Church.
• 52:19
  It's OK. Yeah.
• 52:20
  I mean, yeah, I'm right there with you.
• 52:22
  Like the evangelical movement, I think has been going down a path
• 52:31
  that I won't follow. Why?
• 52:36
  There's a lot of political reasons, their affiliation.
• 52:40
  I feel like they're trading Jesus for politics and.
• 52:46
  Against if you have to excuse me, I'm very ignorant.
• 52:49
  I don't know anything really about this.
• 52:50
  Can you break down a little bit for me?
• 52:52
  Yeah, I mean, their loyalty to Trump is baffling to me.
• 53:01
  I don't understand it. What do you mean?
• 53:05
  They've kind of they've, they've put in their, they've.
• 53:10
  Synagogues. Synagogues are about God for us,
• 53:12
  I'd imagine. Churches for you are about, you
• 53:14
  know, your prophet Jesus. Yeah, well, that's ideally the
• 53:20
  case, but the overall message is of the evangelical church that I
• 53:29
  can see has shifted from the beatitudes of Jesus to politics
• 53:41
  to policy to closing the borders to, you know.
• 53:49
  That's not a religious issue. No, it's not.
• 53:53
  And again, I'm sorry, it's so foreign to me.
• 53:57
  How did that, how did that happen?
• 53:58
  How do how do the churchgoers, how are they OK with it?
• 54:01
  I don't know. I don't.
• 54:03
  I really don't know and I've been trying to figure this out
• 54:08
  and I'm not. I don't want to.
• 54:10
  I don't want to talk. Politics OK, now I'm just I'm
• 54:15
  just curious about how what your.
• 54:16
  Your your grapes of the church. I'm very disappointed in
• 54:24
  Christian nationalism. Like, I'm very disappointed in
• 54:28
  this and the evangelical church leaning towards Christian
• 54:31
  nationalism in America, where it's like, I, I just don't
• 54:37
  agree. I don't agree with that.
• 54:40
  I What is Christian? What is Christian nationalism?
• 54:43
  Believing America, America first and believing in this idea that
• 54:54
  God ordained America to the truest extent that we are the
• 54:58
  only like prophets of Christianity, Like that's just
• 55:04
  ridiculous. What to the exclusion of the
• 55:07
  rest of the world? Meeting.
• 55:09
  Meeting. So Christian.
• 55:10
  Christian movements in Canada don't matter.
• 55:12
  Christian movements in Brazil don't matter.
• 55:13
  It's. It's America's under God.
• 55:16
  Yeah. And how did that even come?
• 55:18
  How did that come to be? That sounds fairly haughty to
• 55:20
  me. Yeah.
• 55:21
  Oh yeah. It's haughty.
• 55:24
  I think that a lot of people were were misled.
• 55:26
  I think that there is a corruption in the church where
• 55:39
  people have been sold this idea that that in order to be a
• 55:46
  Christian in America, you have to have these set of beliefs
• 55:55
  for. And a lot of those, especially
• 55:57
  in it, we're talking about mega churches, we're talking about
• 56:01
  like it's not everyone, it's not every Christian in America.
• 56:07
  It's just they're the most powerful right now are saying
• 56:15
  these are the political beliefs that you have to have.
• 56:18
  These are political beliefs that you have to.
• 56:19
  Have. Oh yeah, yeah.
• 56:20
  That's nothing to do with the I don't understand.
• 56:22
  It's nothing to do with your religion.
• 56:24
  No, it does not. And it shouldn't.
• 56:26
  And and if if Jesus were to come and like, if he came and said,
• 56:36
  hey, here are the political beliefs that you have to have.
• 56:39
  Here's what we're going to do to get rid of Rome.
• 56:41
  Here's what we're going to do to make, you know, Jerusalem,
• 56:46
  whatever again to make it great again, right?
• 56:49
  Like then it would have been a totally different story,
• 56:53
  wouldn't it? Like wouldn't, wouldn't it have
• 56:55
  been like, he didn't do that. He came, he said, give to Caesar
• 57:01
  what's Caesar's and. Under to God What is God's?
• 57:06
  Yeah. Exactly and.
• 57:09
  Nobody but Steven, how'd they get away with this?
• 57:11
  Meaning who who got up and said, hey, I know this is not an
• 57:14
  anywhere in the New Testament, but you know, you have to be
• 57:17
  pro, I don't know, abortion, anti abortion out or whatever.
• 57:19
  It is OK that that that happened to the church.
• 57:22
  I mean, there's a, there's a big movement that like Turning Point
• 57:27
  USA is a, is a big proponent of like these hard lined beliefs
• 57:36
  aligning with or trying to align it with Christianity, Christian
• 57:40
  nationalism, all of that stuff. And they just have a lot of
• 57:46
  sway. Like people, people hear it and
• 57:50
  believe it. And we've just gotten away from
• 57:53
  the Beatitudes. We've gotten away from the the
• 57:56
  the message of Jesus and gotten into this weird like corrupted
• 58:08
  version of Christianity that I just don't see God in.
• 58:12
  And at some point it stopped being about loving your neighbor
• 58:20
  and it's moved into something else.
• 58:24
  So to answer your question, this record has been process me
• 58:29
  processing a lot of that stuff. Is that why you wrote Burn?
• 58:34
  Yeah, I mean, burn is like, so the entire record really is
• 58:40
  about cycles. And burn is about cycles are man
• 58:45
  made political cycles are human desire to search for power, our
• 58:54
  human desire to control justice, whatever that looks like to to
• 59:01
  you, right. And burn is about this idea of
• 59:09
  giving, giving over your justice to God and allowing God the
• 59:17
  justice right like which God is merciful and much better than us
• 59:24
  at handling our, our own, our own things.
• 59:28
  So that plays a big part in the I mean, the the record is a a
• 59:35
  concept album, which I just love stories.
• 59:38
  I love. I'm a very visual and story
• 59:42
  driven writer. So like I said, I had a hard
• 59:47
  time like falling into a groove with this record until I kind
• 59:50
  of, I imagine this concept and started writing from that place.
• 59:57
  And it really helped me sort out a lot of these feelings that I
• 1:00:02
  have. The record is called Dissenter.
• 1:00:07
  You know, a dissenter is someone who has views that are different
• 1:00:10
  than the rest of his tribe, right?
• 1:00:14
  And I felt that way as a Christian.
• 1:00:18
  Over the last several years, feeling more and more like that.
• 1:00:24
  And so the concept basically is, you know, we're living in a
• 1:00:32
  dystopian world. The protagonist is someone who
• 1:00:39
  is seeing these cycles play, play out these cycles of power
• 1:00:42
  and politics and economics and all this stuff.
• 1:00:46
  And they're in the height of like the power in the wrong
• 1:00:50
  hands, the height of, you know, violence and, and corruption.
• 1:00:56
  And so then the response is, you know, like in burn, the response
• 1:01:03
  that he initially has is, well, let's burn it down, right?
• 1:01:08
  Let's like we've got some clear enemies, Let's burn it down.
• 1:01:12
  Let's fight. And through the record, he
• 1:01:17
  starts realizing, oh, wait, the, the rebellion that we had got
• 1:01:25
  out of control too, and is just going down the same cycle, like
• 1:01:32
  when we're fueling everything out of hatred or when we're
• 1:01:35
  fueling things out of vengeance and, and our warped sense of
• 1:01:39
  justice beings still get out of hand.
• 1:01:43
  So how do we solve this problem? And eventually he's shunned by
• 1:01:46
  both originally by the, the power that was in in play and
• 1:01:51
  also shunned by the rebellion because he speaks out against
• 1:01:55
  both of these parties, right? And is sent out on his own.
• 1:02:00
  And the other thing that's happening through this in this
• 1:02:03
  dystopian world is the world is coming to an end, right?
• 1:02:06
  So we have a natural cycle as well, you know, life, death,
• 1:02:10
  rebirth. And he's through the second-half
• 1:02:17
  of the record. He's on a spiritual journey
• 1:02:20
  through the wilderness essentially and processing all
• 1:02:25
  of this information and how do we and asking the question, how
• 1:02:29
  do we get out of this cycle? And it has a bit of a bleak,
• 1:02:36
  bleak ending. But as the world is coming to an
• 1:02:42
  end, as he's faced with ultimate like nothingness, and going into
• 1:02:51
  the final song on the record is called oblivion, going into
• 1:02:55
  oblivion, whatever is after that, right?
• 1:03:01
  He is realizing that the thing that was most important where
• 1:03:08
  the people around him and the people he loved and, and
• 1:03:15
  accepting that this world is coming to an end and, and
• 1:03:20
  accepting what the next phase is, whether that's, you know,
• 1:03:28
  darkness or heaven or whatever is coming next.
• 1:03:33
  Just embracing it with open arms and then at the very end you
• 1:03:40
  hear it swell back up, the cycle starting over again.
• 1:03:47
  The question being did it, did it really come to an end or no?
• 1:03:51
  And is it just rebirth and then back to the same old cycles,
• 1:03:56
  same old man made cycles? And just exploring that concept,
• 1:04:08
  exploring through the eyes of this person who's going through
• 1:04:12
  this spiritual journey has been really interesting to me.
• 1:04:22
  And it's not like the happiest of endings, right?
• 1:04:25
  Like because I don't feel like there's a happy ending right
• 1:04:29
  now. We're in the middle of it,
• 1:04:31
  right? We're in the middle of these
• 1:04:32
  cycles. We're in the middle of turmoil
• 1:04:35
  and division and people people hating each other for their
• 1:04:41
  their worldview. And I keep saying worldview,
• 1:04:44
  it's just fresh on my mind. But how do we get?
• 1:04:50
  Out of that and the way we. Get out of that is by loving
• 1:04:54
  each other and seeing where they're like, seeing people's
• 1:04:58
  motivation, seeing people's true heart.
• 1:05:01
  And the only way we can do that is by having conversations about
• 1:05:05
  it. The only way we can do that is
• 1:05:07
  by seeing the value in the person we're talking to and
• 1:05:13
  keeping that first. Right?
• 1:05:17
  Like even though I disagree with you, you are still a person of
• 1:05:23
  God's love. Yeah.
• 1:05:25
  You're still a. Person, you're still a human
• 1:05:27
  being and that carries weight and I think the age.
• 1:05:33
  Of the Internet has made. It very easy for people to
• 1:05:39
  ignore humanity. Like ignore.
• 1:05:42
  The fact that people are there's flesh and blood on the other
• 1:05:44
  side of the comment, right? It's and it's just causing
• 1:05:52
  another cycle of just like hatred and.
• 1:05:57
  Division. And yeah, just devaluing are are
• 1:06:03
  human brothers and sisters. Well, it's easy to demonize and
• 1:06:07
  it's. Even easier to demonize one.
• 1:06:09
  It's on the Internet and you're not looking at anyone.
• 1:06:11
  No one's looking at you. It's completely anonymous.
• 1:06:13
  Yeah, I think Doctor Phil did something a couple years back.
• 1:06:17
  I think it was him. I thought it was an amazing
• 1:06:18
  idea. He found like ultra woke left
• 1:06:22
  wing people and he found like ultra ultra alt right people and
• 1:06:26
  he was going to have them have a debate.
• 1:06:28
  But I think of the before they had a debate to debate whatever
• 1:06:31
  they were discussing on, they had a for 5 minutes.
• 1:06:34
  Each one's just ask the other person where you're from, have
• 1:06:37
  any kids, married, you know, And he said what resulted from that
• 1:06:41
  was like a very peaceful conversation.
• 1:06:44
  Wow and the reason why I. And.
• 1:06:47
  The reason why it wouldn't be that way is because if you start
• 1:06:50
  the conversation saying you're evil, you're the devil.
• 1:06:52
  So I need to, I need to make sure that you're wrong.
• 1:06:54
  And if you won't listen, at least some way to destroy you so
• 1:06:57
  the other people won't be enticed by you.
• 1:06:59
  Or instead, it's about, you know, having these, you know,
• 1:07:02
  really beautiful conversations. There's, there's a line in the
• 1:07:07
  Talmud which I love, where one of the great sages says who is a
• 1:07:12
  wise man. A wise man is someone who learns
• 1:07:15
  from every single person, which means every single person has
• 1:07:18
  what to offer. So you know you can, you can
• 1:07:22
  throw them under the look, look. I'll say something.
• 1:07:24
  Really intense so. Years ago I had.
• 1:07:30
  A new class every year and I always wanted to to keep the
• 1:07:35
  guys in the cloud. There were many other classes,
• 1:07:37
  but I wanted my particular class to be the one of real openness,
• 1:07:40
  tremendous openness and with the serious sort of undertone.
• 1:07:43
  So I would start the class off by saying something outrageous
• 1:07:46
  but true, which is there's this part of Hitler that I really
• 1:07:49
  respect. And for you to say that is
• 1:07:53
  pretty intense. And every year, thank God,
• 1:07:56
  because I was like the idea I lose half the class the next
• 1:07:59
  day, which was great. So the people that stayed for
• 1:08:01
  the next class, I explained the one thing I respect about
• 1:08:04
  Hitler, which is that, and it's the same thing I respect about
• 1:08:08
  Hamas, by the way, which is that there is a burning desire and
• 1:08:13
  fervance to something, an idea, right?
• 1:08:16
  For Hitler, it was world domination and, you know, the
• 1:08:19
  destruction of the Jewish people.
• 1:08:20
  You know, for Hamas, it's the destruction of the Jewish people
• 1:08:23
  and having, you know, their own homeland or whatever it may be.
• 1:08:25
  And they believed it with such conviction that they'll go to
• 1:08:30
  the old sacrifice everything, everything.
• 1:08:33
  They will burn everything. Just in.
• 1:08:35
  Order to accomplish that goal. So I told my students, I said,
• 1:08:39
  why can't we do the same thing? But in regards to loving your
• 1:08:43
  fellow man or keeping, you know, Jewish law or loving God and
• 1:08:47
  being close to him, if you have that.
• 1:08:49
  For if you really had that same fervor, wouldn't be enticed by
• 1:08:52
  money or women or fame, it would mean nothing to you, just like
• 1:08:55
  it means nothing to these people, right?
• 1:08:57
  Hitler at the end, he lived in like a bunker, right?
• 1:09:00
  With nothing. You know, Hamas fighters, they
• 1:09:03
  live with nothing under the ground, but they're still going
• 1:09:06
  at it because they have this idea you can learn something
• 1:09:08
  from everyone, right? Yeah, that's true.
• 1:09:11
  I mean, it's it. Is and I love that idea of just
• 1:09:15
  like, why can't we do that in loving our fellow man?
• 1:09:18
  Why can't we do that? And yeah, just and just caring
• 1:09:23
  and helping out the people who need help and and seeing
• 1:09:28
  everybody is, is human and seeing everybody as as one
• 1:09:33
  really. I mean, I really like Richard
• 1:09:37
  Rohr. I don't know who that is.
• 1:09:41
  So he wrote the Universal. Christ.
• 1:09:44
  And some people, you know, there's Christians out there
• 1:09:46
  that that, you know, would probably call him a heretic, but
• 1:09:53
  he has this, this I. I mean it's.
• 1:10:00
  Not just an idea, but in. OK, hold on.
• 1:10:06
  I'm trying to formulate this. In my mind.
• 1:10:09
  Basically. Man, I am, I am terrible at
• 1:10:18
  like. It when I need to remember
• 1:10:20
  something, it's it's just gone. But essentially like we are all
• 1:10:26
  made of the same stuff and the New Testament says that all
• 1:10:34
  things are made through Christ, right?
• 1:10:37
  That and basically. God is in all.
• 1:10:42
  Things like in all of our beings and in ourselves, it's there's a
• 1:10:49
  part of God in all things and when we view that there's a part
• 1:10:55
  of like Christ for for me, like when I view everyone with the
• 1:11:02
  idea. That.
• 1:11:04
  There is a part of Christ in that person, part of the Christ,
• 1:11:10
  the gods, the savior, whatever in that person and in me.
• 1:11:16
  We are now 1 like you are me and I am you like, and that's, I
• 1:11:23
  mean, that's where I think that's why it's so important
• 1:11:27
  that we love our neighbor, neighbor as herself.
• 1:11:29
  Like we are one people. We are one humanity and we are
• 1:11:35
  all connected. And when you start viewing
• 1:11:37
  ourselves as connected and not separate.
• 1:11:41
  Like it matters if there's an injustice done against you
• 1:11:47
  because that means it's done against me too.
• 1:11:50
  Like it matters if you are hungry and can't afford food
• 1:11:56
  because I am hungry and can't afford to.
• 1:11:59
  If you can't afford food too, if you can't, you know, it's like
• 1:12:03
  once we put ourselves in this view of what happens to you,
• 1:12:09
  happens to me, like then it changes everything.
• 1:12:14
  It changes the way we can operate, changes we, we can't be
• 1:12:19
  as selfish anymore, You know, we can't like take from one person
• 1:12:23
  to give to ourselves. You know, it's just like we are
• 1:12:26
  all one. So, and of course, that's a
• 1:12:30
  weird concept for us because we are also tribal beings.
• 1:12:34
  We are, we are survivors. We, you know, whatever it takes
• 1:12:40
  to survive, our humanity tells us to do that.
• 1:12:44
  And it's contrary to that, to, to, to, to see the world in
• 1:12:54
  that. Way I think.
• 1:12:56
  Well, all you're asking, Steven, is for people not to look at.
• 1:12:59
  Life through the body. But to look at God, at life
• 1:13:01
  through the soul? Yeah, exactly.
• 1:13:03
  Yeah, right. That's great, Steven.
• 1:13:06
  Thank you SO. Much for being on the.
• 1:13:07
  Show with us today I really. Appreciate it, I learned a lot
• 1:13:09
  from you. Awesome, thank you for having
• 1:13:11
  me. This is great.
• 1:13:12
  You got it. Take care, Steven.
• 1:13:14
  All right.