Latest / Books4Guys / Loving Conflict: Anna Lecat on Leadership, Difficult Conversations, and Creating Collaboration in a Divided World

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Loving Conflict: Anna Lecat on Leadership, Difficult Conversations, and Creating Collaboration in a Divided World · Books4Guys

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Before we jump into today's episode, I want to thank our executive development partner, Standard Pursuit.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Founded by Hunter Dittrickson, Standard Pursuit is a coaching community built for founders, entrepreneurs, and high performers who are ready to step into the next version of themselves.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Through one-on-one coaching and the Standard Training Club, Hunter helps people strengthen both their physical and mental operating systems so they can think more clearly, lead more effectively, and perform at a higher level.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I appreciate most about what Hunter is building is that he understands success isn't just about business.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's about health, mindset, discipline, leadership, and becoming the type of person capable of achieving the goals you set for yourself.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you're looking to sharpen your performance, improve your habits, and operate at a higher level, both personally and professionally, I encourage you to check out StandardPursuit at standardpursuit.com.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get to today's episode.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you're in Paris, right?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is like an international week of uh interviews for me.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but no, it's so good to finally meet you.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been looking up your work and background and just your your mission with your book.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to make sure uh that I mention it.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: We've got it on the Books for Guys website, but your book, Loving Conflict, Creating Collaboration Where Others See Division.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I can't think of a better time for this book to be out there, Anna.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's true that it's really necessary because uh the we I think we are staying more and more away from the conversations that are difficult, right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we I think that most of us are conflict avoidant already to start with, because that's what we grow up being told that it's better to avoid conflict, that love means do not say the thing, just just deal with it yourself, right?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: And nowadays it's getting more and more, the more polarized we become, the more we try to avoid those conversations and they go into different realms, right?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Not just personal, professional, politics, religion.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's all pretty divided.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, I I'm I'm I'm looking forward to diving in on this because I'm a huge proponent of conversation and talking with people.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I love I was talking to someone the other day.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, man, we're so much more alike than we are different.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible when you you think you're different based off what the news says or social media, but then if you spend like 10 minutes with somebody over coffee, you find you have so much more common ground than what's portrayed to be out there.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think these conversations in your book are so important to encourage more people to do that because it is so refreshing.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: It makes you happier, it makes life better for everyone if they can figure this out.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd like to start at the beginning, Anna.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you've been a business owner, founder in different countries, China, Ukraine, uh, France, the US.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where did the entrepreneur spirit come from for you?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what led you down the path of really being doing global work?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's a hard thing to do for a lot of people.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I grew up in Ukraine, and my parents were entrepreneurs, both of them.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I was watching them shape and design and redesign their lives and their careers, uh, depending on what was going on with reality.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh when I was 17, I really wanted to leave Ukraine.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that was after the Soviet Union just fell apart, and uh it was difficult to leave, difficult to get visas to go anywhere, and I really wanted to go and explore the world, and and I had this idea that um freedom is somewhere else.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was sure that if I get to America, to the United States, I'll be able to be fully free.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went on a quest of getting to America to become an American at 17.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I wasn't able to go to America right away.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So instead I got into this program to go to China to study Chinese and to get into Chinese university.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went there instead, thinking, okay, I'll get there, maybe not directly, but but at some point.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to China, I studied there, I learned to speak Mandarin so fluently that you don't know I'm I'm China I'm not Chinese if you are speaking with me on the phone.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I traveled all around China, and then by 20, 1920, I started building businesses just because I was so curious of the culture of how things were, and Chinese culture is very entrepreneurial.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that almost everybody is an entrepreneur in China.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, it's so there are very few people who want safety and security of a paycheck.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was just, I found the people that were willing to do it with me.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I met my first business partner around that time, 19, 20 years old, uh, who was uh a Chinese uh businessman who was 20 years older than me, who met me and said, Hey, uh, sounds interesting.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had so many ideas.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I was full of enthusiasm for business.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't study business, I didn't really speak English well, but I said, we're going to bring American brands into Chinese markets, and we're going to help them to establish a China.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so he was like, Well, sounds great.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: So he helped me to fund the company, establish the company, and from there forward, I just uh I kept building my own path.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's so interesting.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it I saw that, that you're a fluid Mandarin.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I also saw that you love Tango, and uh you're a very well-rounded individual with lots of lots of passion and interest, which is very cool.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that and I think that comes, I always encourage people too to if they get a chance to go live somewhere else or go experience another culture.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did my my studies in Costa Rica for Spanish, and it was probably one of the coolest experiences ever because it was actually during the World Cup, which is going on now, and uh it was so cool to be in another country where like that is their sport and on a global stage.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that was something that I'll never forget.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I always encourage people like, yeah, if you get a chance to go live somewhere else, go visit somewhere else, like it just opens you up.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's still we're it's still uh like the people I found out again, we were more alike than we were different.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: We may have spoken different languages, looked a little bit different, but we have a lot of similarities in what we like to do and got to talk about music and all of that, and it was really cool.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um But Anna, it's kind of continuing down your business journey.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's the I really like that you said in in China, everyone's an entrepreneur, they're not really afraid to branch out and and not be in that comfortable.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in America, a lot of people they they want the stability, they want to make sure they can pay their bills, and they, you know, maybe 20 years down the road, they're kind of regretting not taking a chance on doing things.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it'd be really cool if that shifted somehow.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: But besides that, East, what were some of the more interesting things you came across in doing business in different countries?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Were there things like because I know here in America, sometimes people are scared to start businesses because they don't know how to keep up with like sales tax and and all these laws and rules that are as a business owner, you kind of learn new things every year.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is it like that everywhere?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or what are the main differences and things you experienced?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's everywhere that we need to learn the rules of the game, right?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's as long as we see it as a game, right?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and we keep for me it it's important that we keep enjoying the game.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So then when it's like if you play any sports, right, it it you might have difficulties and there are rules, and there is going to be a judge, let's say, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: But as long as we're loving the game and we treat our team partners or uh teammates well, right, with respect, and we listen to each other, we're going to win at the game.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or when we lose, we still love the game.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's what I've learned early on to keep enjoying.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we my Chinese business partner has a lot of humor and treats this as a game as well.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't take each other seriously, we don't take ourselves seriously.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as such, no matter how hard it was, and it was and it's still very hard.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, now I have a business in China where we are helping American companies produce uh high, highly um innovative products in China.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: We build supply chains for them in China.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, during a trade war between China and the United States, it's a very hard business to have, right?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, it's like uh no matter how many years we're in business, uh difficulties are going to show up.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But as long as we are like, all right, this is exciting, uh, how are we going to deal with this?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we take it with without getting serious becoming serious about ourselves, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Forgiving ourselves our mistakes, because we make plenty of mistakes in business, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And learning from them and also forgiving each other, I think then it's it's a joy, and the joy gives us energy to keep going.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, and I what I'm hearing too is just the the passion and knowledge to keep learning, figure it out.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, don't be afraid, you know, have fun with it.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have failures, you're gonna have wins, but just just as long as you enjoy the process and what comes and goes with that, then it's a pretty uh it's a great path to take.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um Anna, so so transitioning, you've been working, you've built business, different countries.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where did it, the idea of conflict and speaking about it?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can imagine in business, working with different cultures, different people, having tension and trying to figure out, you know, what to say, what not to say, and all of that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you've learned that on the go.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: But when did it kind of click for you to where you decided, hey, I need to speak more about this, or hey, I need to write a book about this and share this with people?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: What did that path look like for you?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh definitely all from the very beginning of starting my business around 19 or 20 years old, I started noticing that it's uh it's how we go through conflict.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's the people who do not avoid conflict, who go into those hard conversations, then win.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it kind of it started very early because uh in China I learned that you need to have a conversation.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's how you have the conversation that matters.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not if, it's how.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was in the conflict already just by being uh a foreign woman, a non-foreign woman in the country who didn't understand how to do business, who didn't really, and we started with a very technical, technically heavy business, manufacturing business.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I was spending time days and days with men in at the factories, building things together, and so that there was a conflict right there.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Every time I was in a room, I was a conflict because people looked at me and I was an outsider on so many levels, and so I we had to talk about it, and I understood that if I didn't talk about it, if I didn't say, I didn't name the conflict, it would be awkward, trust wouldn't uh wouldn't be built, we would not collaborate.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I learned early on to just name it right away.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm foreign, I'm a foreigner, yes, I'm a woman, yes, I don't know all these things, and I want to be your partner, teach me.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have an enthusiasm, enthusiasm, I respect you, I'm going to work hard, right?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that that was uh by nature of who I was, I was the conflict.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then nowadays, uh look, I'm from Ukraine and there is a war in my country.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I am like in the middle of major conflicts.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as I told you, I have a business in still in China where we are in the middle of trade war, where every time I work with new customers in the United States, there is a question of do we take it to China?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how do we work with China now?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to do about tariffs?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does it make sense for us?
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: How do we do we trust each other?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like it's a line through, oh, I had a business, a fashion brand where we were making fashion in Shanghai, actually producing it.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: We had a design office in Paris, France, and we were selling in the States.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: We had retail stores in California.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the team, the multinational team, how does a French designer speak to a Chinese manufacturer, to uh a US sales team?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Conflicts were daily conflicts, and I understood that actually a conflict is a feature of every relationship, personal or professional.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So if I want a relationship, I will have a conflict in this relationship, right?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's there's nobody who is exactly like me, and I have a conflict, internal conflict with myself.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's a feature, and so I kept studying it and reading all the books on it and and and going to school for it and hiring consultants to understand it deeper and deeper and deeper.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then when the war in Ukraine started or escalated uh this time in 2022, I decided that I'm going to start talking about it more in more a teaching capacity.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I started, I wanted to serve.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: To serve my country, but also serve everyone and to share what I know and keep learning together.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's in that's incredible.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I again I love talking with people like you who are just who have done just amazing things.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like what your process and thoughts are behind it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and you you experience more conflict than most normal people just because of where you're from, who you are, and where you're trying to do business.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it's just every day for you, there is a little bit of conflict, you know, even if it's not in one area, in the other, there is.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a very unique, you're a very unique person, uh, and probably no one more qualified to talk about this topic just based off your background and experience.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things, Anna, like when you're working with, let's say, a company and they're trying to, you're consulting them with, I'm assuming it's probably within their culture, how they work with external clients.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: What are some pain points you see them dealing with?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, obviously you mentioned earlier, like they just avoid conflict, but obviously you can't be a successful business without meeting that head on and working through that.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things, like high-level bullet points you kind of start with when walking those organizations through how they can improve in that area?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, first of all, we look at what is the biggest conflict in each team.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to be different.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Within every so uh within every company, it's going to be different.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: And also depending on the time.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, now many companies deal with how do we introduce AI, how do we become AI native, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there is immediately conflict there because then you will have, for example, a technical team coming in and wanting to go fast, and then more traditional teams saying, slow down.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Customer service, for example, now has a lot of conflict with CTO and with the technical team and with the CEO.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because customer service will say, do not let us go, do not let we need to hold the hands of our customers, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so there, when they start communicating, it escalates very quickly to an argument, to a fight that they do not know how to have.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh they each stays on their own.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is what we think, this is what we think, and there is no collaboration possible, and then it just goes to okay, we told we just told you so.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: You do it because we told you so, and we know no trust and collaboration grows in that space, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an example.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Another example that I do a lot of work with is when you have a highly successful CEO who is a um highly skilled CEO and a board who wants to control the CEO, but the CEO doesn't want to be controlled, and uh they have different visions.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: They have different visions, they have different stakes and um positions.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh I come in and I help them speak so that they both understand each other and understand what they are after.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I I can tell you, Chris, no matter what are the conflicts, the actual conflicts, what's behind is we need to understand what is the fear of the other person and what value are they now protecting.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: What is their deepest value that they are protecting and what are they afraid of?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when we are fighting for I'm right, I'm right, I'm now defending myself, you're defending yourself, we're not asking the right questions.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're just saying things that we will later regret.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I do is I f I facilitate a conversation where we all calm down, where we stop being flooded with emotions, where we can go back to rational thinking, and then I help them ask each other or each team questions what is your what is your main value?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: What is your main goal?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: What are you afraid of?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And how can I support you?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when people hear the other person actually say, What I'm actually afraid of, or my biggest failure, like customer service will say, Well, I've chosen this job because I care about people.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm afraid of you bring AI in, we will forget the people, and customers will not be cared.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the whole point of my career.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so then as a technical person, you now know what I am about, what I care about, what is my why.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're interacting with my why, which is much deeper interaction than just on the surface, I'm afraid of losing my job.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a technical person, you might say, Well, I'm all about innovation.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be ahead.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I see you people sitting here talking about all these human values.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm afraid that if we do not start using AI to the maximum capacity, we're going to fall behind on innovation and we're going to just destroy the company value because we're behind.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Which is also my value is innovation, creativity.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm afraid, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, which is very, very important to state.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a customer service person, you will now know who you're speaking to and what is their why, and how do you find then the common ground?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, one thing that's I think is very important is that we always um come from we together.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we together, you and me, let's say customer service and technical, we together have a problem.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not you against me.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's we are together, a team.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: We are still a big team, a company, and in front of us is this problem that we are now together going to figure out by discussing our values and our purpose and our why, right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And our fears, and then finding a collaborative solution for this problem.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sitting here thinking, yeah, a lot of companies, and and part of it, I'm sure, is companies move so fast and it's hard to pause because a lot of people say, like, hey, we work together, you know, we're all collaborative, but really on the surface, you know, it's like, no, we're against, you know, we're kind of trying to get our own things.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it takes somebody coming in to be the mediator and say, hey, let's slow down for a second, let's talk, and let's find a solution that makes both sides happy.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the time you can find that.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm sitting here thinking, like, you can do that in business, you do that in relationships, you do that with everything.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you just have to pause, talk it out, and and then you'll you can find a path to a similar, you know, uh common ground.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: It just takes that pause, which I'm sure you experience that going into places, having to tell a CEO or the board.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you were talking about companies.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh yeah, we've seen that uh with Apple, Steve Jobs, we've seen Disney, you know, conflict with leaders in the board, and it's very public out there, so people can kind of like look at those as examples.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: But um Do you ever have challenges with having these leaders slow down and and actually take a second to kind of uh look internally at themselves or their teams?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that one of the struggles?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, you know, uh, Chris, I want to say that actually, uh, while I'm all about slowing down and I love doing that, that's not what I'm requesting from the leaders and from the teams.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I actually understand the speed.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm all, I mean, coming out of China and being successful in China, I can tell you the speed of how Chinese entrepreneurs and businesses go go is tenfold what we do in America.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm all about speed and efficiency and fast meetings, 45 minutes for me is the meeting that needs that you know, it doesn't need to be an hour.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's about what and how we do it, and it's about our nervous system.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's about uh calming down.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that can go fast if we are trained.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we need to pay attention to our state, our body.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So my workshops, so I do lots of workshops with companies where we are very it's important.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Body where I brought tango into the corporate world.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we dance tango and we listen to tango music, you know, and so we lead and follow.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so we notice how our bodies are feeling.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we notice also nonverbal cues when we look at other people.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be fast.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever you go fast and you have a conversation and you notice that, uh-oh, what's going on?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: They're not there anymore.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or they just got upset or sad or they're not there anymore.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not having a conversation anymore.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I need to backpedal.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, what did I say?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: How can we reframe this?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or do we need to go take a pause?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is it?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's paying attention.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a very good football player.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: They go fast, right?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: But they are paying attention to themselves, like what their body is doing, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what are what are the older people on the field are doing?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's the state.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't have to be slow.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It just needs to be intentional.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to train before going into these rooms how to know ourselves, how to know what we are feeling, how to know if my shoulders are tense or something is happening with me.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Am I relaxed?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: How is my breathing?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's going on with the other person?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I just also want to say that uh, because you asked me about the challenge, I found lately the biggest challenge is that people are more and more lonely.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, they're more and more alone in their lives.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I I work with many very high-profile CEOs and executives, and more and more of them are single and alone.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so when people are alone, they are not fully loved and cared for and witnessed in their personal life.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: They then then bring all of this need because we all need to be seen and loved and cherished.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is like we are this is who we are, right?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Some people more, some people less, but in general, we want to be listened to and respected and loved, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're not getting it in personal life, we bring it in our professional life.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we are we wanting more validation, external validation, want more can, you know?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so when this executives do not recognize that this is what's happening, that's actually been my challenge.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's to show and to bring it in and to shift the focus to personal life also.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because I work a lot with couples and with you know, people on their personal life because it's so connected.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: When we get better at conflicting at work, we are better with personal relationships and vice versa.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting, interesting.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I've had a lot of discussion recently about specifically uh, you know, due to technology and AI, about people being a lot more siloed and not, you know, being out there creating relationships and just how important that is and how we need to get back to that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I also love that you talked about not wanting to slow down.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I you triggered something in my head.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I interviewed a former uh fighter pilot earlier this week, and he he explained something similar.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have time to really slow down, you just learn how to recognize, figure it out, shift, work, you know, together, make decisions, and he's a leader and explain something very similar the way you did.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, now it clicks to me like that's how it is.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to pause everything, you've got to notice and recognize and then move uh with a purpose, you know, to resolve.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love the way that you uh just said, I'm not trying to slow anyone down.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: We can do this at a fast pace, we just need to do the right steps.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that was very cool that you explained it the way you did.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which led me, and I just got a couple more questions for you, Anna.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that was kind of leading me to think, you know, you do you do many things, like you're running companies, you're consulting and working with organizations, you're writing a book, you know, you have your book published now, but how do you personally balance your time and set limitations to where you're not overwhelmed and being pulled in in so many different directions to where you get burnt out?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you for asking.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I also have three children and I exercise every day and I dance tango.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yes.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um look, uh, this is really uh to me, this is the game of life.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do I balance everything out so that I don't burn out?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is this is the main topic.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think this should be the next book.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so it's just uh uh the body work is the most important to me.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, my exercise every day is something that's non-negotiable.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I take care of my body uh very diligently.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, like this is the vehicle, this is this is very important.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, and then I have energy for everything.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I have I travel all over the world, right?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's one thing.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And another one is I'm very intentional with every conversation and with everything I do.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: There is this phrase that I've learned from a teacher.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, she told me, ask yourself every moment what is pleasing you now, and only do that that's pleasing you.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's very much, it's uh it might sound uh that comes from like from it might sound sound very woo-woo, but it's actually it maybe people have a different language for that.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what do you like doing, or what will bring you joy?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: For me, pleasing sounds uh palatable.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I will, if I'm talking to you right now, it's because it's pleasing me.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's because it's exactly what where I want to be right now, it's aligned with my values.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: I like what you're what you do.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I believe that it's important that your voice exists and I want to participate in building your voice.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: You see, so so that's why I'm here.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so then this half an hour is exactly what I should be doing.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel so good about it that then I will carry this energy because it's so aligned with my body and with my spirit, you know, with my values.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Then I have an energy and then I'll go have dinner now with my kids.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then I will so much enjoy being with them because that's what I want to be doing then.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, follow-up question to that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: For the things that don't bring you joy, you know, you're you're probably getting hundreds of things thrown your direction that people are asking you to do or wanting you to be a part of that don't line up with what is going to feed you and help things progress.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: What are some things you do to politely decline those or to keep those away and out of what, you know, gets thrown into what you need to accomplish on a daily basis?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I say no.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that easy, huh?
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: I say no.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I use a lot of AI for uh many things that I don't want to be doing.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's right, it's getting I have a team and I have very good friends who uh know that if I start sleeping and I start saying yes to something that doesn't bring me energy, they will come in and say, Hey hey, what are you doing?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on right here?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we have you having this conversation?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Are you enjoying this?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I've asked my friends and I I um I express gratitude every time they correct me.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm using my community, my children, my husband, everybody around me, they can correct me anytime they want.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: If they see that I get out of my pleasure lane, you know, like this is my my lane where I get the most energy from.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And they and then I will and I'll listen to them blindly.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I will be like, oh, okay, okay, I'll go say no now, because you're right.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is exhausting me.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Those are good friends and good family, it sounds like, to keep you keep you going.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one more question for you.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I ask everybody this that comes on the podcast, and it's more of just from a book standpoint, and I see a bookshelf behind you.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm always curious to know what is a book or two that has meant a lot to you personally or professionally, and what's a book that you like to recommend to other people?
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: So um I love uh reading and rereading Viktor Frankel.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he's an Austrian uh psychologist.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's called The Meaning of Life.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so uh he actually talks about uh this um he talks about the space between stimulus and response.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he survived Holocaust.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about surviving horrible things by finding the meaning of your life.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about how we need to develop this space between stimulus and response.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Something happens to you, you do not respond right away.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You wait, you realign, you calm down, and then you deliberately decide what to do next.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think this one is very important.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Another one is a very small book.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's called A Story of Ted, T E D.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about the drama triangle uh that I use so much.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's about uh not being a victim of the circumstances and uh instead of becoming a creator of your own life, and it's just so useful.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: I find it very useful for parenting, for my own life, to keep noticing that to take keep taking responsibility for redesigning my own life versus blaming it on others and on circumstances.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great recommendations.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I have not read either of those, but they both sound like books that I would be interested in reading, and so I'll be adding those to my list.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But Anna, this has been such a great conversation.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day and your busy schedule to just share more about your story and your mission and your purpose behind everything.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh what you're doing is very important and is very impactful.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so very excited now that we've met to see what you continue to build and what you continue to achieve.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh just thank you for doing this.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so amazing.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Chris.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and thank you for doing everything you're doing.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh likewise here.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to follow what you're building.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's great.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate it.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Anna.