Latest / Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality / 054: Passed Over for a Promotion? What Kind of Support Do You Actually Need?

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054: Passed Over for a Promotion? What Kind of Support Do You Actually Need? · Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Good morning, Annette.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Morning, Sandra. It is Labor Day. So why are we here?
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Because when you run your own business, you don't get
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: a day off unless you give yourself a day off,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: which is a good thing because, you know, you can
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: take a day off when you need one.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: That's true. Okay. I'm going to look at it from
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: that perspective. And it was convenient for us to get
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: together today.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: It was. It was. It was. Because everybody else is
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: like taking the day off.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: They don't want to talk to us.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Open time for us. Oh my gosh. I thought we'd
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: go back to this conversation we were having about not
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: getting picked for an internal promotion, dot, dot, dot, again. Yeah.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a lived experience you had. Nope.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: No.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: No, obviously, clearly by that laugh. No, that's not you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: No.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, that was not me either.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Of course not. No, of course not.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: But how long... Did you suffer in silence about it
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: and not? I mean, I stopped even telling people that
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: I was putting my hat in the ring for internal promotions.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you were dealing with it.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I stopped putting my hat in at all.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: If you're listening today, I want you to go back
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: to last week's episode, episode 053, and we were talking
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: about When you're having a career problem, what kind of
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: problem are you having and what kind of help do
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: you think you need? This is a continuation of that conversation.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: So if you haven't already, please go back, listen, and
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: then follow, subscribe, whatever the button asks you to do,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: because that way you'll get an automatic notification when we
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: have the next conversation up.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm sorry to hear that you actually stopped putting
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: your hat in the ring. That makes me sad.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: For a long time, it made me sad too. And
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: it's what prompted me to realize that I was just
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing. So sometimes
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I left and found another company. Sometimes I left and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: found another opportunity. And then I realized... that I was
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: just doing the wrong thing, which is also a conversation
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: that we've been having as well. Maybe sometimes things aren't
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: happening because you're just doing the wrong thing.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You're doing the wrong thing. You're in the wrong place.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: You're not being true to yourself. There's so many different
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: ways that that shows up in our careers. And I
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: think it's hard to look at it objectively all the time.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: That's why I'm super excited that we're having this conversation now.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: What do you think it was? I don't know if
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I can pinpoint this for myself, but maybe through discovery together,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: we can figure it out. What was the thing that
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: you think was happening that was causing you not to
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: be the successful candidate for the internal promotion? And let's
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: set aside the things that we know were possibly, probably
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: were playing in the sexism, potentially ageism. Maybe for you,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: it was the motherhood tax. We all know those things
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: were going on in the background, not that anybody was
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: talking about them, but that they were probably a factor
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: for you, me, other people. What was it in your
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: particular situation that you thought was holding you back?
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: I think that when I look back on it, some
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: of it was skill. Some of it was understanding how
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: best to position. So some of it was strategy. Some
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: of it was willing to be vulnerable and feeling uncomfortable
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: because I wasn't safe, but I didn't realize that at
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: I'd say there were a number of different things. I
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: don't think it was strictly the company. I think there
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: were definitely things that I could have been doing differently.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I think part of the challenge when we're in those
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: situations is we want it to be about the other
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: rather than about ourselves. How do we find the kind
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: of support that we need to be able to be
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: objective about it? That's one of the things that I
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: struggled with. What have you seen as a career coach?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, from my own personal experience, I agree.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: It was probably multiple factors. Like I wasn't probably ready yet,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: but I didn't get clear defined feedback on could you
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: work on developing your skill or your talent or your leadership?
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: In these particular areas. And some of it was I
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't in the right place, obviously. And we remember the
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: story of getting told that I was too intuitive, which
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: is hysterical because that's exactly what happened. Then there were
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: other times where I don't know that I sold my value.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I don't know that I talked about the things that
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: my team and I were accomplishing or I shared the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: successes that we were experiencing. I don't know that I
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: defined them clearly enough to talk about that. And then
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: I also think that there were things I didn't know
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: that I didn't know. I'm thinking about this story when
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: I had this team that I was part of and
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: my team was bunch of very talented individuals, but all
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: of these miscellaneous duties and responsibilities were consolidated under me.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I thought it was super interesting because I got to
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: learn a bunch of different things. And then my leader,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: my director is like, okay, I need you to force
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: rank these individuals. So, you know, here's me on the
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Google machine, right? Force ranking. What is it? How do
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: we do it? And then how can I force rank
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: individuals that have all these unique roles and responsibilities and
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: there isn't anybody to back them up? Correct. So when
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: my very talented Chinese speaking export representative wasn't in for
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: the day, her work did not get done. There was
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: nobody else to do it. There was nobody else that
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: cultivated the relationships with our clients and our vendors like
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: she did. And working with overseas people in that manner
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: is very relational, very relational. So instead of pushing back,
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: which now I totally would have done, I would have
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: been like, are you kidding me? I can't force rank
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: these people. I tried to complete the task, very homework-like.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: check off the tasks, say that I did it. My
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: boss would say that I did it instead of saying
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: this particular system. We've talked about systems before. It's not
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: going to work for our team. So what did I
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: need to get out of that? I'm not exactly sure.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I think honest dialogue would have probably gotten me to
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: a better place. And I like your thought about safety.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: I wasn't sure.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And I don't think it's something that we
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: understand well enough when we're in it. We just know
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I can't trust. There's something that's going on here that's
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: causing me to feel uncomfortable with being open about what's
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: happening for me. And we've talked about safety in the past.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that I think
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: going out and getting outside perspective can really help with.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: And one of the things that I think AI struggles
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: to provide answers around. So let me give you an
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: example because I always feel like it's more helpful when
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: we have an example. So assume that we are talking
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: with AI about being passed over. AI might suggest to
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: you to have a conversation with your immediate supervisor asking
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: for feedback. It might even script out the conversation. It
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: might even say, ask these five questions and get the answer.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: And you can role play that. Well, what if they
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: say this? What do I say then? Well, what if
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: they say that? What do I say then? And that's
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: all really great when you're talking to the machine, the computer.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: The challenge is that when you get in front of
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: your boss, your heart is racing. Your throat is dry.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: You feel uncomfortable. There's a tension in the pit of
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: your stomach that you can't understand. And then they say something.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: And what is your immediate response? Your immediate response is
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: to say, well, that's not true. Or let me tell
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: you why. Or to become defensive. Or to maybe if
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: you're a woman and you're really frustrated to cry. Because
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: tears for women are not often sadness, especially not in
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: the workplace. And they're not often about being upset. They're
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: about frustration that has no place to go. To go.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Can it stop finding my two eyeballs, though? Please, can
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: we put it somewhere else? What about like my toenails, right?
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: And so that's why I'm saying AI can't replicate that
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: body somatic response we have when we're in the moment.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: And those somatic responses, somatic being what's happening in your body,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: are really important. to what might actually be happening and
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: why you might need an outside perspective to help you
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: with this particular situation. For example... I'm sitting across from
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: my boss and they start providing me the feedback that
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I requested from them. And I'm feeling frustration and I
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: start to cry. Great. My boss doesn't understand why I'm crying.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: And at that particular moment, when you are that engaged
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: in the sense that you are having tears, you are
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: no longer listening. You are in a nervous system dysregulation state,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: meaning you can't pay attention. There's something going on. You
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: need to catch your breath. And what you actually need
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to do is step away from that conversation. Now that
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: might be in the first five minutes of the conversation.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Right. That might be trying to say your particular side
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: of the story. Like, why are you even here? Why
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: are you asking for this meeting? Why are you asking
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: for feedback? Yes. Possibly because you've been holding it in
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: for so long. Possibly because it hit you. You saw
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: who else got promoted instead of you. Oh, there's so
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: many layers built into it. I think that's a really
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: good point. So first, let's step back and let's say,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: what is it? Let's define, how am I feeling about
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: this situation? What's going on for me? This might be
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: a great place to journal it out or just to
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: write it down. I don't even know that it has
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: to be journal. It doesn't have to be on pretty paper.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Talk to your notes app, whatever it is, just get
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the feelings out because then they're not going to be
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: clouding your judgment anymore. You've got them outside of you
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: and now you can objectively look at them and say, okay,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: this is what's going on. And now we can start
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: asking the questions about what kind of support do I need?
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: And I want to say one thing because I think
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: everything that you described is absolutely 100% what we need
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: to do. There's one tiny step before all of that.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Let's do it. Tell me what it is.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: One tiny step is you need to become re-regulated. How
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: do we do that? When we are in a state
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: of dysregulation... We cannot move forward until we become re-regulated.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: What do I mean by that? I mean that you
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: are not breathing heavily, that you are not actively in
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: a state of arousal where I just want to run
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: away from this. where I can catch my breath and
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I'm not crying anymore. And most importantly, that the thoughts
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: in your head aren't critical. What a goofball I am
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: for going and having that conversation. What a goofball I
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: am for crying. Why do I always do this to myself?
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: That is not a body that's in regulation. That is
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: still an aspect of dysregulation. So just breathing, deep breath,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: is so important. You might see people regulating by moving
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: their bodies, right? So back and forth. That rocking motion
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: is a way to get your body back in regulation.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Going for a walk, really important, right? If you can meditate, great. personally,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: when I'm really dysregulated, meditation doesn't help. But any kind
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of physical movement that will get rid of the energetic
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: feelings in your body, moving your arms around, shaking your body,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: always with the intention to work towards calming yourself down.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: If you find yourself getting agitated, then that is the
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: wrong direction, whatever it is that you're doing. It's How
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: do I become more centered and grounded in myself? And
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: then I can get curious. But until I do those things,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: then I'm just continuing this spiral that's not really helpful.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: It absolutely makes sense. So I loved your suggestion of
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: recognizing you're in this spiral and asking to suspend the meeting.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: You know, Sandra, I need five minutes. I'm going to
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: get up. I'm going to walk away. And then I
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: will come back. And I'll be prepared to finish this conversation.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Unless that's not how you think it's going to go
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: for you. And then you can say something along the
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: lines of, I think it's best if we suspend this
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: conversation right now. Can I reschedule with you when I'm
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: more prepared to talk about it? Again, you're not making excuses.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: You are saying, this is where I'm at. I can
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: recognize that. And I can come back and do it differently.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: And let's pick it up from that point forward.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: There's another aspect of this. If you are the supervisor,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: if you are the leader and you recognize this is happening,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: then you can give your direct report the break. You
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: can say, I have a feeling this is hitting wrong. Yeah.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Or this is hard or this is uncomfortable. And for
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: us to be more productive, I'd like to offer that
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: we break here for a moment and you come back
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: in 15 minutes and let me know if this is
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: a conversation you want to continue or if you would
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: prefer that we reschedule it for another day. Because I
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: think as a leader, it's really important to recognize that
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: your direct report, the person in front of you, may
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: not really understand what's going on for them. They may
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: not understand that they are completely dysregulated. And anything you
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: say from this point forward is not being absorbed. They
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: are so much in their body with the experience. Their
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: rational mind is no longer present in this conversation. And
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: I don't mean that from a critical perspective. I mean
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: that from a physiological perspective. They are in fight flight
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: fawn freeze any further conversation at this point is irrelevant.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah i'm completely unproductive and what an emotionally intelligent leader
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: yes to stop the conversation and i think maybe from
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: this perspective let's let's reverse it from i'm sitting in
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: the chair as the one feeling some kind of way
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: because i haven't gotten promoted internally again let's switch that
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and see from the leader's chair, maybe ask some questions
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: about what our direct report needs. Because doing this alone,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: doing the career thing alone and not getting any outside
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: assistance is tough. not having formal resources to get that
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: assistance is tough. So imagine, imagine Sandra, if one of
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: your leaders or one of my leaders would have stepped
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: in and said something to the effect of, I think
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: you have great potential. I don't think you're ready yet.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Here is some resources. Here are some things that I
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: want you to think about. Do you need information or expertise?
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: So could you go into this certification program? Do you
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: need an advisor? Do you need a mentor or a sponsor? Formal, informal,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: in company, out of the company, all those factors you
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: can decide later. But would that help you develop this
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: particular skill I want you to focus on? Do you
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: need perspective or do you need someone to challenge you?
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Maybe you can't see what you can't see. And we
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: talked about this last week in episode 53 because you're
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: sitting from inside of it. So how can you see
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: what it looks like from the outside when you're inside?
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And then is this really a hard, maybe it's a
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: mental health issue, or maybe you're dealing with something really
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: tough in your personal life and it's impacting your professional life?
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Of course it will. But is there something that can
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: be offered? I offered many, many breaks for people or
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: a day off, or do you want to go and
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: reserve the conference room and work from there today? Like
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: something just to get them outside of their normal situation.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Do you need to go home? And then the other
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: question I guess you could answer is, do you need
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: a human relationship in which patterns can be noticed over time?
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: So right, maybe that's a formal relationship.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: And then we didn't talk about accountability, but that's also something.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: How many times do we need somebody to offer our
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: team members just that extra push or that accountability when
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: maybe it's not received from your leadership perspective, but a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: peer colleague might be able to offer that? No problem.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: What else? What do you mean by accountability in that perspective?
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Accountability to me, and I'm thinking back to wearing the
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: leadership hat. And I'm also thinking to when I was
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: the person in the seat being coached like that. Accountability
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: would have looked like to me, somebody asking with no judgment,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: where are you with this thing you committed to? Did
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: you put it on the back burner all week? Where
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: are you with tracking your success? Why did you cancel
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: your one-on-one with your manager again? Somebody asking me and
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: me expecting to be asked because I'm personally somebody that
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: works well with external accountability. If I make a promise
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: to myself, Forget it. Ain't happening. If I make a
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: promise to you, then I feel obliged to deliver that
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: promise that I had made to you. And I'm thinking
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: now how that could have helped me in my career
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: much more than I ever even realized.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: The reason I asked you to explain accountability is because
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: for me, accountability is a four-letter word.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: Is it because you were expecting something different or the
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: kind of accountability I'm talking about? Would that have been
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: helpful for you or no?
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I think that's where understanding from a leader or even
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: a coach or a mentor or a sponsor can be
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: very helpful for the person that is on the receiving
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: end of that. I had an excellent experience. mentor who
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: asked me specifically, what is it about accountability that you
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: find so triggering? And one of the responses was, because
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I feel judgment. Because when I don't deliver, I feel
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: that I am being judged. Or because I feel like
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I'm being graded, which again is another form of judgment.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Or because I feel like if I'm not perfect, that
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I have failed myself. And one thing she said is, well,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: what if we look at accountability differently? And we look
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: at it not as what you commit to doing as
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: action steps and deliverables, but rather the next time I
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: find myself doing what I do, how am I going
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: to keep myself to the commitment that I made to myself?
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: So the next time I feel judged. And I get
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: defensive about that. How do I want to be in
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: relationship with that judgment? And how can I then demonstrate
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to myself that I'm doing what I said I wanted
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: to do? It's not accountability in the sense of I
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: promised to do these five things and I did them,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: but accountability to myself in terms of how I want
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: to be in relationship with the event or the activity,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: because it's a skill I'm developing and skills take a while.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: To actually become second nature. So for a long time,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: we're going to continue to fall back on behavior that
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: is habitual and not the new skill that we're trying
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to develop. So the question is not, did you do it?
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: The question is, how do I want to be when
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I inevitably find myself in this situation? Because that is
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: my habitual nature and what I'm used to doing. And
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I'm practicing a skill that I want to be doing differently.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I thought that was so beautiful that I've stopped thinking
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: of accountability as... a four letter word. But I do
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: catch myself often because I think that's how people view accountability.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: You said you were going to do these seven things
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: and you didn't do these seven things as opposed. And
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: so holding you responsible, accountable to having done these activities
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: rather than what is it that we're really holding you
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: accountable for? Is it the activities or is it the
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: skill development? which I found so much more helpful.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And what I was hearing, if I can
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: echo that back to you at all, is that accountability
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: was somehow tied to your perception of performance. Yes. I
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: think performance is a separate thing, right? Those are the
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: results that you have to get so that somebody can,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: and unfortunately, I'm going to use the word judge because
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: it is judge, judge that you're doing your job. There
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: is some judgment that happens at work, Let's be completely honest.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And then accountability in my mind is not judgment of
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: your work. It is an evaluation of have you done
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: what you said you were going to do? And was
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: that an action? Was that a list of to-dos? Or
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: were you hoping to finish the report? And then let's
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: say you finish the report and now you need somebody
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: to check you out for like typos and do the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: animations work properly? Whatever. And then that's not performance. It
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: could If your job is to turn in a ready-to-use presentation,
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: that could be a piece of your performance. But for
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: most of us, it probably isn't. Can you separate what's
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: the performance, what's the output that I need to be
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: judged that I'm doing my job? And then what is
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: me getting some accountability to keep me on track and
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: for somebody to help me discern if I'm achieving my goals,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: my skill development, the kind of person I want to
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: be at work?
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing what you're saying. Yeah. And I think what's
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: underneath it for me is how much do I trust you?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Well, and I mean, that's the whole crux of this conversation.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: What kind of help do you need? And who's the
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: right person to do that? I don't know that your boss,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: your direct boss, is the right person to hold you accountable.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's a separate person. Your boss holds you
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: to your performance. Yes.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Yes. And again, this goes back to the conversation we
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: had on a previous episode about your boss is not
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: your coach. Correct.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: And you can't often manage and coach people in the
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: same way. Not usually. Because you're right. You break down trust.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: You break the safety of I can come to my
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: coach or my consultant, my therapist even. You come as
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: an imperfect person where your boss or your direct manager
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: may not allow you to come as an imperfect person.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: There's There's a certain level of expectation. Yes. And so
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: that is- All the more reason, yeah, sorry. All the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: more reason why- No, no, no, no. I'm going right
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: back to your safety conversation or psychological safety in the workplace.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: If you don't have this safe place to be imperfect,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: and chances are that's not with your direct manager. If
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: it is, great. Good for you. Yay. But it's usually not.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Not for most people. That's not their work experience.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: All the more reason for having an outside support person.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: It might be outside the reporting relationship, but still inside
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: your company.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: It could be.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: It might be completely outside the reporting relationship, outside your company.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: The point is understanding what it is that you really
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: need and that there is a level of trust in
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that relationship that allows you to, as you say, show
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: up imperfectly.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: Show up with everything that you want to work on,
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: everything that you're struggling with, everything that you're willing to
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: invest in yourself and change and make better. Or maybe
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: through that coaching or that other third-party relationship, you find that,
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: like you and I did many times, I'm in the
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: wrong place.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: But I may not have been willing to admit that
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: to myself through the relationship I'm saying, I'm in the
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: wrong place. Or maybe... The relationship helps you answer the
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: question of, Sandra, you can't change jobs again. This is
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: not a place thing. It seems like a pattern of behavior.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Somebody that can help you notice the difference between wrong place,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: wrong behavior, wrong accountability, whatever it is. Yeah, absolutely. So
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Even just one question like tell me a boss you've
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: enjoyed working with might might actually reveal that the problem
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: isn't the person sitting in front of you. It might
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: just be authority.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: That's the issue. Oh, yeah. We explored that a little
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: bit last week, too, because many of us have a
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: problem with authority. Would you say that we've talked more
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: about defining the type of help that we need?
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Well, I think we've talked about what happens in our
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: body when we're in a situation that might happen. color
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: the type of help we need. I think now we've
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: got the, what is it that I want from the
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: person when I'm talking to them? This episode has been
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: about one of the things that AI can't help us
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: with is the relationship and what happens in the relationship
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: and how we respond and how that might help us
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: figure out where we need to go. I need a
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: relationship where I have safety. I need a relationship where
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I can do pattern evaluations. I need a relationship that
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: is outside of the reporting relationship. Did I just wrap
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: up our episode? You did. I love that. Next time
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: we get together, we should, Annette, maybe talk about, okay,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: so now that we understand what kind of support we
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: need and that safety needs to be a part of
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: this conversation, especially for soft skill development. I think there's
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: a difference between hard skill development, like how do I
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: write a performance review? How do I provide feedback? How
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: do I know my DISC profile and how that supports
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: or doesn't support the work that I do? How to
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: force rank performance. There's definitely skills that are not relational skills.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that I can go somewhere and learn how to do.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: For true relational skill development, which I think is what
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: really kind of helps you move up the ladder from
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: the perspective of leadership, that is a different set of
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: skills that needs to be developed. And those require a
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: little bit more vulnerability on our own part than perhaps
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: is possible within a reporting structure. That's not to say
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that it can't. I've certainly had direct managers and supervisors
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: who were excellent at that relational development. And I've also
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: reported to people who I felt completely unsafe having those
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: conversations with. The real question is, so now that I
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: understand this a little bit better, where do I go? Yeah.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And I love that we've moved beyond AI is not
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: going to coach you. It's not going to. It could
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: help you discern how you're feeling. It can help you
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: get your thoughts down, but it's not going to get
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: you through these deep, development sessions that you need to
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: really get to where you see yourself in the next one, two, three,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: five years.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: All right, good. So then come back next week where
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Sandra and I are going to hopefully finish this conversation,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: but you never know. We might expand it some more.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: But we have such juicy riffing.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, I love it. I love that we never
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: know where it's going to fully go, which is kind
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: of the exciting part for me, Sandra. So thank you
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it's exciting for our listeners, but.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: We try and edit out the non-necessary pieces for them.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: But in the meantime, Sandra, if our listeners want to
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: join us on exposingthehiddenreality.com, we do have a newsletter and
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: that goes out in between episodes where we have a
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: little bit more conversation about these topics.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: So see you next week.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: See you next week.