Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #13 The Mind of the College Athlete: Hear What Famed Sports and Performance Psychologist Dr. Jonathan Fader Tells Us About How to Succeed On and Off the Field

Transcript

#13 The Mind of the College Athlete: Hear What Famed Sports and Performance Psychologist Dr. Jonathan Fader Tells Us About How to Succeed On and Off the Field · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

[00:00:00] I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo and I'm Dr. Liz Seidler and you're listening to college is fine. Everything's fine. Hi, welcome to the second episode in our series on college sports and mental health. Last week, we had the perspective of an NBAA coach. And our next few episodes, you're going to get to hear from current and former student athletes.But today we are so lucky to bring in psychology, heavy hitter, Dr. Jonathan Bader, we'll give a longer intro in a bit, but if you read our episode description, you know, this guy really knows his stuff. And by the end of this episode, you're going to have a deeper understanding of why confidence wins over ego every time helpful send is more important than just when, and the one tip Dr.Bader would give to athletes if he only had 60 seconds. And yes, this guy's a lot of information in his brain. I mean, you're going to hear him lap me when I try to remember a famous Viktor Frankl quote. But we were just as struck by his thoughtfulness and humor. It was obvious that Fader [00:01:00] lives by the creed of he preaches, which is that we should see humans first, athletes second.And last but not least, you're going to see how much money I had to put in my spare jar. SoI'm really excited today. We have Dr. Jonathan Bader, who's a licensed clinical and sports psychologist in New York City. He's the co founder of the Union Square practice in the city, and he's well known for his work with professional athletes. It's in the MLB and NFL, including our local New York Mets and Giants.He's the author of life is sport. What top athletes can teach you about how to win in life, which adapts the skills. He teaches elite athletes to everyday life. He's been a regular guest on national media platforms, including his popular Ted talk, when the game of life with sports psychology on how you can be your elite self using the same principles fader uses with high performing athletes.Thanks. Bye. And lastly, in the clinical psychology world that Sarah and I live in, [00:02:00] Dr. Feder is a nationally recognized motivational interviewing trainer, which is an evidence based intervention to elicit and help strengthen motivation for change. So you are a man of many hats, so hopefully I did a good job covering all of them.You did great. I sounded like I have a dashery in there. You did a great job. I'm going to do my best in this talk Liz and Sarah to live up to that. All right. So one thing we learned, you know, we met over a decade ago through colleagues and I just, you know, I had known you as, Oh, Jonathan Fader, or I talked to Jonathan Fader the other day about a shared client or, you know, my, my work wife, Samina Groves, who speaking of partners, right.Great partners. I know, you know, her a little bit better, but. So I, you know, we're coming at you as like, Oh, John, Jonathan, but it sounds like fader. You prefer fader. I mean, talk about different hats. I mean, sometimes I have to ask myself what my name is, but fader is an emergence. I'd say of three factors.One is it's what my wife calls me. That's what my, my best friends call [00:03:00] me. And in sports, everybody gets a name. And when you have a last name like fader, it just sort of sticks actually in football. They, they tended to call me fader aid. It was like my nickname, in fact, I appeared on the schedule when I was with the Giants every week as Fader A for my 15 minutes with the team.And yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard to get away from that name and I think, and I, and I like it and you know, my, my dad, my mom used to call my dad Fader actually. So sometimes my wife jokes and calls me Fader Jr. Okay. So you're fond of Fader, but John and Jonathan as well. But, uh, we'll stick to the paper. I mean, I, you know, I, I respond to anything that's not an expletive, so, you know, I think we're a PG, we're a PG podcast, so just go for it.All right. I don't know. have a potty mouth. You're gonna. You know, I just, Liz is like, Oh God, what did this guy just do? Sarah's gonna rip it now. Well, I mean, there is a potty mouth jar in Sarah's house and oftentimes when we're recording her kids are like, Mom, Mom, you just, I just heard you. It's so funny, some [00:04:00] of my talks are recorded and I have talks recorded for that aren't like on social media for teams that I've given and I bring some of them home and show them to my kids and my younger daughter would, I would get in trouble.She'd be like, poppy, because, you know, we get so mad, but I'm going to keep it super clean for this. So I don't want to have to put money in Sarah's potty mouth jar. Right, right, right. It's full. So there's no, all right. So listen, you've worked with a lot. Obviously your bio is, is long and lengthy and filled with professional sports.But by the way, just so you know, in terms of people we've been in interviewing lately, your bio isn't nearly as long as some of the college students we talk to. So don't get ahead. Don't get ahead. Too excited. Don't, they're so, don't get a big head. I mean, we're like, damn, man, , you making us look bad. It's like, how do you get that all accomplished?And you know, you're like 22 and you rule the world. It's pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe you can talk a little bit about your experience working with the age group that this podcast is really for that 18 to 22 ish. Range those four [00:05:00] years when you're trying to develop yourself now longer as the high school athlete, but as a college athlete, looking at all the various factors that go into that.What's your experience with that crew? Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, my career went in reverse when it was talking about working with athletes. I mean, I started working with professional athletes, you know, first in the MLB with the New York Mets. And working six years, six years. And I worked six years for the minor leagues and then three years in the, in the big leagues and major league baseball, and then working with the New York Giants.And, and in that time in my, in my practice, our team was attracting more and more youth athletes. So then I started working with college athletes and we did a lot of work in college and still do work in college environments and then working with youth athletes, you know, age 15 to 22. And, you know, I mean, it's developmental, the things you face at these different levels.Um, or developmental, I think what I would say, the thing that stands out to me the most there is that, you know, fundamentally what people are are challenged by is seeing [00:06:00] new increased levels of competition. As you go, oftentimes, you know, when you're just starting on the sport, and this is true in anything, any, any field, when you're starting out, you're kind of as good or better than anyone.And as you. As you increase and people kind of drop out of the process, you're really seeing competition. That's as good or better than you. And I find that, you know, they always talk about sports as being, you know, an art of adjustment. And I think people's ability to mentally adjust in that age. Right where you're really starting to see people who are as good or better than you, which happens usually kind of 17 to 22, whatever sport you're playing.I mean, I think that's really the biggest, one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that that's what people need a lot of help with. One of the things I think about. When I work with younger kids versus this age group versus older adults, as I'm talking a lot about values and in your book, life of sport, that's a big part of it.You know, what are the things that are your, why are you motivated? I think of it as kind of the M word motivation [00:07:00] seems like this magical thing, either have it or you don't. And a lot fewer people are saying, well, what is the thing that actually gets me out of bed in the morning? Whether I feel motivated or not younger kids.If I said, what are your values? It'd look at me with a question mark older. People who've been through a lot have had to kind of have their values tested. Maybe they know a little bit, but in the college age, I think they're trying to define their values, right? They're, they're coming from a place where either their high school or their parents or their world or community said, here are the values that we believe in.And then this is this great time of year where, or a time of your life, I should say, where people are saying, wait, I get to decide whether that's true or not. So I get to decide whether the. family who really pushed me and encouraged me to play sports. Am I going to keep going? Am I going to get out of bed for me or because of that pressure I used to face?So I'm curious from your perspective, what you notice about finding the value in college that makes you adjust well, or be willing to take a hit and then get up the next day. I [00:08:00] think it's really a great question about values and how they differ as you mature through life. And I think earlier in life, it's hard, it's harder to define what they are.So the questions I ask, you know, people who are sort of age 16 to 22 are, you know, how do you want to be remembered on this team? Another question I'll ask people is, You know, what do you wish that people said about you as a person and as an athlete, and then work backwards from there? Because I think to your point, you know, when you just ask someone what their values are, or you even do kind of like an exercise that we do a lot with people, a card sort, it's more abstract.People have trouble understanding it. But I think you can work backwards from there and then name it. Right. So if you ask someone, you know, what do you hope that people remember you for? You're going to get at some of those values. If you, if you find out, and if you have to ask a question yourself, I think it's a great question to ask ourselves, like, you know, how do I want people to remember me as an athlete or as a sports psychologist or as a person?I think it's really defining, you know, ask yourself, how do you want your parents to remember you? How do you want [00:09:00] your kids to remember you? And I think it really shows you not only your values, but I think it gives you a real clear sense of What you should, what, what, what are you motivated to do? Um, I just got through actually, I just came from before I recorded this podcast, giving a talk to the FDNY, the fire department here in New York.And one of the things that they have above the gate to the rock, which is where they trained firefighters, is a statement that says, let no man's ghost. And it should be women's as well. Let no persons, but it says, let no man's ghost come back. And say, my training let me down. That's what said on the top of the thing.So as a teacher, you're going through this every day, you're reading this thing. Let no man's ghost come by, come back and tell me that my training let me down. And I mean, I think that that kind of thinking is really super motivating. And so I think it's really helpful to think about the impact of your actions.A lot of times we're really self focused. What do I [00:10:00] get out of it? But to think about the impact that you have on your teammates, to think about the impact that you have on your parents, to think about the impact that you have on people, on spectators who are watching you, I think that can bring up a whole suite of values that you're not even aware of that you didn't know that you had.When you were just talking about that, you know, Sarah and I have obviously been talking a lot about episodes about dialectics. And I think one of the things that came up a lot with the coach we interviewed last week was I think just natural dialectical tensions that exist between what's best for the team, which should always come first, right?And what might be best for an individual and their needs and their values and like how to navigate that effectively. Right. What have you seen in terms of the dialectical tensions that might exist between a team mindset, between a coach and a college athlete, an athlete and other, you know, teammates, and maybe some thoughts on like how to navigate those tensions [00:11:00] in an effective way?You know, one of the things I always think about is, and we say, and I said in this book, I wrote called Coaching Athletes to Be Their Best, which is about motivational interviewing in sport, is It always, in my mind, coaches and athletes are so much more effective in a team if they have a humans first, athletes second.And what that means is that you as an athlete are seeing your coach as a human first. And a coach second, and that more importantly, coaches are seeing athletes as a human first and athlete second. And so, as you both know, one of the biggest concepts and how teams work well together is psychological safety, which means I'm going to, I'm going to perform on my, if I know.These people are going to have my back and by having my back, I don't mean just like they're going to pass the ball to me when I need it, right. Or they're going to, you know, check someone who needs to be checked. It means that like, if I mess up, they're going to be in my corner. They're going to listen to me.They're going to, they're not going to criticize me. They might point out how I could improve. But they're not going to make me feel [00:12:00] terribly about who I am as a person. And I think that, that when we think about what you're talking about, this idea of me as an individual versus me as a team, teams that develop more interpersonal connection are better at that.I'm where I'm ready and more willing to put away and put down, you know, what my interests if I knew not only why I'm doing it, but who I'm doing it for. And so coaches that are really good at this. Find ways to get teams together and talk about things. So what I found is actually the, one of the most effective ways to do this is to get people in groups and to be able to debrief and talk about the game in a real way.And the same thing is true with first responders and people in military and settings like that, you know, that the teams that are developed a lot of trust are teams that sit around and say, you know what, I should have done this. And then it's like, wow, this is a real person with real insecurities and hangups, like all of us.[00:13:00] And, you know, whether whoever the team is, I think, you know, machismo and being super confident and macho, like gets in the way, like it does for many people. And so to be able to, to create a sense of like, this is who I really am, then people are willing to kind of. shift and help out and let a little of their, their ego down.And many of the teams I work with are full of people with big egos. And I think if you try to, if you try to check someone like that ego, it doesn't work as well as if you try to help people understand who these people are behind the ego and have them share about themselves in a way that, That gets people, you know, together and trusting each other more, right?No, one's just all ego. And it's, I think the idea of breadth versus, you know, single mindedness. We see it all the time. You know, we've talked about how one hit wonders tend to be people who don't have a wide range of musical skill or haven't kind of gone out there and tried out new things. It's the [00:14:00] people who are kind of.Long term musicians and successful musicians because they try out a lot of new things. Same thing I can imagine in sports. If you're just all ego, well, that can work in a very specific way and circumstance, but if that's all it is, you're going to fall to pieces. It's not going to work when somehow you get an ego check and you fall apart.So, so I hear that getting to know the person behind the ego. Doesn't mean you have to get rid of the ego. You got to understand that you can, I mean, and also it's sort of like, I mean, I think what you're saying, Sarah is interesting because I talked to a lot of people about this, understanding the difference between confidence and arrogance, right?Like, you know, I think for athletes to understand what true confidence is, that, you know, it's not about. And that's not to mean that, like, you're not going to give each other crap and, you know, like rise each other. I'm not talking about that. Like, that's part and parcel, but that's not having a team. You wonder where you are, but I mean, I'm really more talking about that, you know, true, true confidence is about how I feel about myself on the inside.[00:15:00] Not how I behave vis a vis someone else. And I think the more that, that coaches set the tone about that and, and, and set the tone about ego. I mean, I have a friend Ryan holiday who wrote this book called ego is an enemy. And he talks a lot about that in detail. And I think coaches that speak to that directly and message about that and talk about that openly and talk about how everybody has to.Let go of themselves for the greater good here for us all to to move forward. I think those are the teams that develop that level of trust. I mean, some of the biggest findings in sport are that, you know, teams that are successful are teams where there's a lot of clarity on what my job is. Real clarity.Like, I know, like, an example of this is a baseball outfield, right? Where, you know, there's a pop up into the outfield and, you know, everybody's like, I got it. I got it. And they're very clear guidelines. Um, All right. It's a center fielder who has the trump card. They're supposed to be able to, but I find that what you [00:16:00] see is a lot of collisions, I think, are based on the fact that no one's clear about what that actually means.People don't talk with, you know, clear communication about how they're going to communicate beforehand. And then part of the issue is role acceptance. Right. It's like, has this person really accepted that when this center fielder calls them off, they're going to do it. And so great coaches notice this and have, you know, open ended conversations with people.And I think great athletes do it with each other. They're not afraid to be able to say, Hey, listen, like what, what, in that situation, how are we going to play it? What are we going to do? How are you calling me off? Right. And I think, you know, no one likes to, just like us, I mean, every, no one wants to practice ahead of time.It's kind of boring. Right. Like to practice your talk or whatever it is, but I mean, if you do that, you're really inoculating yourself against all the stress and you're also anticipating what might be going on for you in these kind of, you know, high risk communication situations. I wanted to go back to that idea and kind of piggyback on something you said in terms of our next question, [00:17:00] which is the idea of humans, first athletes, second, and a lot of what you just described is around team, but a lot of people are individual athletes or they are runners.Perhaps they're swimmers. I mean, they're competing against people in a group, but ultimately all eyes are on them. And so we think a lot about this idea of team mind or athlete mind. Versus human mind, student mind. I think that there's a lot of times where having that confidence or sort of riling each other up or giving each other shit, oops, swear jar.Sorry. Giving it, get talking back PG 13. You know, that feels good on the court where it kind of makes sense as part of a team or part of a group. If you're doing that to yourself, when you take a test, well, that doesn't work as well. So can you talk a little bit about when you notice. When team mind or athlete mind works really well.And when someone might need to transition more to human individual [00:18:00] student mind. What you're getting at is really what we call is self messaging. And in my mind, there, there are two things that happen with self messaging. One is the internal kind of process I have in my mind, whether I'm an individual athlete or I'm on a team, most people don't spend enough time.Creating self awareness about what they're saying to themselves. They're just not aware that there are these messages going back and forth in their mind, because sometimes they're almost not even words. They're just kind of like, you know, diffuse thought processes. But if you slow it down and you realize whether I'm on a team or an individual, I have this kind of running dialogue that's happening.And even just doing that is important, but I think where it comes together is, and, you know, the more that there is kind of a, a. Team discussion of what the message is, and the more that everybody buys into it, the better that kind of team mind can be. So, for example, like one year, the Giants had this idea of all in, and it was just like a [00:19:00] short message that people kind of bought into.And I think actually great athletes and great teams really do a good job of what's called theming. They come up with like a theme that they're all bought into and that they're all racing against. So I think, I mean, for me, you know, a team is a group of people that is aligned around a common purpose. And the more that their inner self talk is connected to this outer idea that they're all striving towards and that it has substance to it.That one time I came into a locker room, I don't want to say where, but it was just written on a board that just said, just win, right? And like, that's great, but that's not really a helpful way to think. Right. And so teams that have, have thought about, you know, there's a, uh, Sean white snowboarder has a phrase that he uses sometimes it says, full send.Yeah. And I really love that, right? Because that's something that you have control over, right? Saying full send, which means for him, basically like showing up fully [00:20:00] and giving his everything he has. Like if a team develops that attitude and something they're saying internally, individual mind, but also as a group team mind, that's pretty powerful.It's a something that they all control. You don't control if you win. Yeah. Absolutely. But you do control if you have a full set, I don't, I don't control whether, like, in this podcast, you know, I, you know, when you're looking at iOS, it gets 5 star ratings, but we certainly control whether we full set, whether 3 of us show up or energetic, committed, and whether we are aligned.In some way on that, on that mission as a team, I felt so aligned with you right now. Fader for really nice. I don't trust it unless there's an F bomb in the, in the center. That's right. Okay. I fucking feel it. I fucking feel it. Oops. One more for the swear jar. I'm, I'm, I'm tallying how many? So that was two.That was two. You said it. Oh my God. I'm feeling like a Catholic school girl over here. I'm just going to look for the moment to throw one in. Uh, Okay, so as Sarah and I were [00:21:00] preparing this, uh, like athlete series, there obviously been a lot of media coverage over the mental health crisis amongst college athletes.And I think the demands are only greater and I would say exciting for college athletes, you know, now to monetize off their image. I mean, there's a lot of changes, I think. And then, of course, at the professional level, there's been a lot of more self disclosure around mental health difficulties, you know, with Simone Biles and the YIPS, which, you know, we can define, maybe you could define for us, Vader, what that is.You know, we already know it's a vulnerable period biologically for the onset of anxiety and depressive disorders. And then take all of these stressors and the pandemic and what the experience of the college athlete was then, you know, both for performance anxiety, as well as like those, you know, You know, the coach we met with, he was like, those early years for freshmen and sophomores, where they might not be getting a lot of playing time and they're failing, like, how do they sustain the motivation to kind of keep at it when they're not getting a lot of reinforcement, let's [00:22:00] say, from their athletic performance.So we'd love to hear a little bit because we know we'll have some college athletes listening. And everyday humans like us are, right, who are not happily, like how to manage performance anxiety more effectively. Well, I mean, one of the things that you said in your question was the word failure. And I think this is typically how we refer to situations in sports.And I've always really tried to refocus coaches and players, people, on reframing how they think of that. You know, a lot of times failure is based on outcome based thinking. So, for example, let me use an example from baseball. You know what I, what I would say to pitchers all the time when they came to me to say, I want to get more strikeouts, say, well, you can't.And they would say, what kind of sports psychology is this? Like, I thought you're supposed to be positive. What I'm saying is you can't get the strikeout, right? The person who's responsible for striking out is the hitter. Your job is to pick a [00:23:00] pitch and throw it. Nolan Ryan, one of the most famous pitchers of all time, said a pitcher has two jobs, pitch selection and pitch execution.A mentor of mine, Ken Revisa, who passed a few years back, but was, you know, worked with the Cubs, helped break that curse as a sports psychologist. You know, he, he would say that a pitcher is a professional mitt hitter, right? Like, and there's so much elegance in that idea, like your job is to locate and try to hit the pitch.And so I think it reframes, I think, Liz, this idea of failure differently, right? Because if I'm thinking that because I lose the game. Or because I don't make a particular shot, I've failed or I'm a failure. That actually sets me up to have a really detrimental or negative mentality. If I'm thinking, okay, that's an unwanted consequence, like that's not the result I was looking for.Let me think about what I need to do to adjust. That person is likely to be able to manage stress better. And I think that shift for people really like practicing that doesn't come easy because [00:24:00] my belief is that we have a negative outlook as humans. We have this negative bias, right? It's how we evolved, but you know, your ability to shift that focus all the time and focus on that.I think that's one thing to really think about. I mean, the other thing I think about this is that I think we need to do a better job as people and as humans. Anticipating negative results, knowing they're going to come and knowing how we're going to respond to that. Right? So let me give you an analogy, you know, for, you know, I've worked although I haven't run a marathon and I get teased a lot for this.I highly suggest it. Yes. So what's the most difficult part about a marathon? The last 6 miles. Right. So people call it the wall, right? It's this mental place where it's like, you know, and that, that mile I've, I've kind of fixated on the people I've worked with on mile 19 to like 21 is like, that's where you're really mentally up against it.So you didn't hesitate at all. But if you ask a college athlete or anyone when they're coming into college, when [00:25:00] and what do you anticipate being the hardest parts of this experience for you? They won't know. And so I think we as people and college in general should be better at saying, I'm going to have these struggles.Definitely. I'm going to have unwanted results. And when I get those unwanted results, this is what I'm going to do. These are, to use your words, like the, you know, anxiety or stress management techniques I'm going to go to, you know, as Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.So you are going to get punched in the face. Right. And so I think a lot of this is about anticipating those negative results, not just like going into it hopeful and saying, I'm going to kill it, but be able to say like, no, no, of course I'm going to have these results and you know, just seeing thousands of athletes at different levels, I think the ones that have achieved the most are the ones that are really resilient, have excellent filters.results. Don't think of them as failures. Think of them as, you know, [00:26:00] experiences where they weren't, didn't show up with their best stuff and curious as to why. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine, you know, it's interesting. You brought up the outcomes versus process that, you know, after our interview with the coach we just spoke with last week, he said it's like a dialectic I struggle with is.Which is understandable. He's paid for certain outcomes, right? Like maintaining his job as, as the coach is like the process and the experience versus being outcome focused. And. I feel like now more than ever, that's got to be so hard for college athletes to kind of do some reframing there, given the kind of reinforcement they can get for outcomes, like to steer their, their mind away from that or think about it in a different way.I mean, it's such a paradox. Yeah. And I think it's a paradox for everyone. I mean, I see this in every aspect of life in business, you know, coaching people on hedge funds, you know, everybody's focused on the PNL, but in reality, like you don't, you don't directly control that. Or even in our work as psychologists, whether we're doing sports psychology or working with someone who's [00:27:00] depressed.The real curious paradox is that you, in order to be at your best, you have to let go of what you want to happen and same time be fully invested in the process. I mean, I show a video at different talks of Brian Cranston that started breaking bad. Where he's talking about, he's interviewed at some award show at the Oscars and they're interviewing him about how did he have a shift in his career?Cause you know, he was okay doing somewhat successful in sitcoms and then all of a sudden, you know, he got Breaking Bad and his kind of career turned around. And he had this great thing to say, which he was like, look, I used to go into, into auditions thinking I'm trying to get this job. And he said, one day I just kind of had this realization that you know what?That's not helpful. I need to go in there and be this character. And leave it all out there on the table, full send, right. Do you use, you know, the Sean White idea and that, that led to him getting more jobs. And I think Liz, that's such a real challenge, right. Is to be fully invested [00:28:00] in the process, but fully let go of the outcome.Because if you're focused on the outcome, you're, you're wasting. energy and mental ability and even working memory that you can use to be at your best in the sport that you're actually playing. Yeah. You say paradox. We say dialectic, right? How can you balance things like acceptance and change? So All right, to regroup a little bit on what you've already talked about.You said noticing the paradox and being aware of it and kind of which side maybe you're being too extreme on and rebalancing can help. You said noticing that self talk and that sort of this, the way you just talk to yourself, even if that's some conscious level, being more aware of that and shifting that more towards a hopeful, positive self talk.Redefining failure. And anticipating and planning for failure, knowing why you're playing. So being aware of your values and your motivations and thinking more about process outcome versus results outcome. [00:29:00] Is there any last thing you feel like, Hey, I would, before we hop off this, I would want a college student to remember in terms of when it gets hard or when they need to push through what you'd want to have them, a skill or a tool you'd want them to know about.Are we missing anything? I mean, there's so many, I mean, but I think I would say that the, you know, if, if, if I was summoned by a college student, I only had like 60 seconds to talk to them. I think I would say the following 1, I would say is all things have a beginning, middle and an end. And that when you're in the heat of it, it's really important to mentally kind of time travel and really think about how will I experience this later on down the road.And then there's two reasons for doing that. One is in the moment you'll get relief, but two, you'll build up the ability for perspective taking, which is a real core skill to be able to think about your experience from different angles. We call [00:30:00] it zooming out in sports psychology and being able to look at yourself and say.You know, I wonder how I'll look at tomorrow, if you can't get to next year, like, how will I look at this tomorrow? I mean, that's one thing. I think the other thing I think about is that, you know, developing the ability to have things that you do every day that create a better filter for yourself to stress.And there are like a zillion things that you can do. But one of the things that we find that people perform when people aren't performing at their best. It's usually because they're trying to prepare or reflect when they need to be executing. This is true of test taking. This is true of, you know, giving a talk.This is true of this podcast. If I'm in the moment thinking, wow, what should I say? You're talking to Liz about the YIPS. The YIPS is basically thinking while you should be acting. Um, and so So, you know, I've found that that developing a set of [00:31:00] exercises that you're doing every day, and that could be anything from mindfulness, it could be performance imagery, which is a technique of mentally rehearsing things.It could be having certain self statements that you use, but developing a routine that you're doing every day that that inoculates you to that stress. And. And gets you ready for it. So I think those are the two things I think about. What are we doing every day? We all, most people engage in exercise, but what are we doing every day for our mental flexibility and mental strength?And then how good are you? Can you get at, at perspective taking, I'll just say one last thing, which is. Annie Duke, the, the poker player, one of the most successful female poker players, actually of all time. She has a technique where she uses called time traveling, which when she gets in a situation where she feels stress that or she has negative outcome, what we might think of traditionally as a failure is that she kind of closes her eyes and she time travels, like she actually imagines herself.In the future, we know that [00:32:00] people who are 17 to 22 are not as good at that as people who are say, 30 or 40. And so you can build your skills at that as a younger person by just time traveling and, you know, getting better at that, that sense of, you know, Oh, I'll feel like this now, but I won't feel like this later.That was a good, strong 60 seconds. So if it, if it's okay with you, we're going to put it out there that students across the globe can just come to you and ask for that 60 second, one hit, is that okay? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be waiting for them at your house. Your price of admission is swearing into the swear jar.I've already given us so much good stuff, but I do want to put it out there that a lot of students right now, despite the fact that There is more conversation among across the board and more support across the board about valuing mental health for college student [00:33:00] athletes. We are also seeing maybe for better or for worse, more people coming out and saying, I'm really struggling with this.A lot of what we talk about is what are the skills that college students can have, but let's take it out. And to your point, zoom out a little bit more. What are the ways you think maybe as a sports psychologist, from that perspective, that we as a culture. As professionals can also support this because it, it is about the athlete taking on that role and learning skills to manage it.But the truth is that it's bigger than that too. What do you think we can do, or what do you think might need to happen for this to become more encompassing? Well, I mean, I think two things come to mind, well, three things. One is, is limiting the amount of input that is divisive and stressful. And, you know, I was talking to a friend who was talking about Shaq and how Shaq said, like, you know, there are [00:34:00] two reasons to use social media.To support someone else or to be funny That's pretty good advice And so I think like, you know in general just thinking like it's what we're putting into the world Something that's going to be positive or uplifting for other people and if it's not then really questioning why you're doing it That's one.I think two is if there's one universal donor To making the world a better place. It's getting better at listening and it's, it's one of the most important, I think, skills for the survival of our society and one of the most under practice skills and by listening, I mean, listening to understand rather than to respond.And so I think. If, if all you do is really work on your own ability to ask yourself, what is this person saying to me, what do they mean? What are they feeling? I think the world is all these situations are better. And the last thing I think is, you [00:35:00] know, at the most basic level, there's so much research to say that humans are better off if they induce the relaxation response in their lives.And many of us just don't, you know, we, there's, it's just the opposite. There's so many, so much running around and doing, and in my life, there's a ton of that, I mean, I'm on this podcast, I just gave a talk, I'm going to another meeting, but I certainly make time every day to kind of take my nervous system down and to let it reset.And in my view, that's just not done enough. And we have tremendous demands. Emotionally, cognitively, intellectually, and that we don't offset it by, you know, giving our system a rest. I like that you said it can trickle down from up top, right? Kind of social media and that it also is about across the board listening, whether that's your coach, your teammate, or [00:36:00] honestly, the presidents of these universities who are paying the coach based on performance, can they listen about maybe that's.Creating more of a paradox that we want. Okay. Give me a dialectic you recently dealt with in your personal life. I think the biggest dialectic is for me is around parenting and practicing what I preach about listening versus fixing and about, you know, being able to, you know, really, really listen deeply and also to know when to, you know, jump in and, and teach.I hear you. Come on. All right. Song you listened to to cheer you up. What's your pump song? I'm listening to like a lot of stuff by this Nigerian artist, William Anabur, who's like, has a lot of like, funk, jazz, really, really cool stuff. He's a box set on iTunes. It's pretty funky. We had a big talk about the F word failure.So a time recently that maybe you experienced something and labeled it as a failure and had to practice your [00:37:00] skills you spoke about as reframing it. Let's see. It doesn't have to be recent. Yeah. Micro failure. I'm just trying to think about, I mean, I think I feel that way every time that online seemed to be about parenting, but I really work really hard to be patient.And I think whenever I lose my patience, With my kids, I have to like, really work through that. I've noticed that 1 of the things that's really helpful for that is, is apologizing. And I found that. You know, I've made great strides with my kids with when I have, like, an unwanted kind of. Situation with with them to be able to apologize and also to kind of, like, explain in detail, like, what led me to.You know, be impatient. Love it. Apologizing. All right. You can just say one words for this. It doesn't have to be anything huge, but favorite way to cope. If you had to choose one activity, what do you choose? It doesn't have to be that favorite way to cope. [00:38:00] Favorite way to cope, I would say is gratitude.Gratitude. And favorite mental health resource, book, podcast, blog. You have to choose one. What would it be? Probably man search for meaning by Victor Frankel. Love it. And one, what's that phrase? You know, I always take it. So I always steal from him the pause between. It's, it's, I always forget it. Between stimulus and response, there's a space, and in that space is our choice, and in that choice is our freedom.I would like to take your working memory. I would like to have it myself. Thank you very much. Well, I mean, it's just, I, I, I actually, funny enough, said that 90 minutes ago. So. There you go. It was top of mind. Thank you for making me feel better. I just have to say it more. Vader. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic.Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. That was a blast. I really, it was, I enjoyed talking to you too. It seems like a really cool show.I think [00:39:00] Sarah and I can both say after listening to that episode, we're both fascinated by the mental aspects of sports and continue to be in awe. of college athletes in terms of their mental and physical stamina. I'm hoping everyone also left the interview listening to Fader and thinking about how we can approach our lives in the same way that an athlete may approach their sport with this kind of same curiosity, urgency, and active engagement in life.There's a couple things that fader talked about that we felt like might be helpful to revisit and kind of summarize in a concise way so that you leave this episode with tangible tips, even if you aren't a college athlete, you know, one of the first. Things that comes to mind that I found really helpful, just as a human, is that it's [00:40:00] beneficial to anticipate struggles and unwanted results, and college is filled with difficult moments, and sometimes us not experiencing the goals that we've set for ourselves.And some of the tips that Vader spoke about is really ahead of time, anticipating that things are going to be challenging, that you might not get the outcomes that you want, and what anxiety or stress management tools are in your toolkit. Are you going to. meditate? Are you going to exercise? Are you going to reach out for social support?Are there things you could do to physiologically manage stress more effectively in terms of learning breathing techniques? The second thing that I felt was really beneficial that Fader spoke about was even though athletes you know, are hopeful about their ability to kind of kill it on the court or on the field.He said that successful college [00:41:00] athletes likely are really excellent at filtering out negative results, that they don't think about their experiences as failures, but rather think about it that they didn't show up that day in their best self and are curious as to why they didn't perform in the way that they expected.And I think this is a really valuable tool as you go through college to really reframe failures as an opportunity to kind of learn. And when he says be curious, it's like about being thoughtful about maybe why things went the way they did in a really nonjudgmental way. And that this led in his explanation to more resiliency, emotionally.The other things he shared was about how important it is for athletes to zoom out and have perspective taking, think about things from a lot of different angles. And in addition to that, [00:42:00] have everyday habits to inoculate yourself against stress. Whether this is performance imagery, using mindfulness techniques, really being mindful of your sleep.You know, really thinking about what can I do to kind of for against stress rather than waiting until you experience it and potentially burn out. And the last thing we'll leave with, and I really loved this. I actually looked into some interviews after this about Sean White, this concept of doing something full send, meaning athletes are successful.He's seen Do things full throttle with 100 percent commitment, even if you end up failing and our coach last week spoke about this. How can we be more process focused versus maybe being outcome focused? So how do we get away from focusing on outcomes, whether they're positive or negative and really focus on the process and the effort to get there?And how do we do that? Like 100%? [00:43:00] Yeah. Absolutely. And I think this relates to other concepts Sarah and I spoke about, about being mindful and fully participating and being in the moment. So I hope you all love this interview as much as we did. We really appreciate Dr. Feder coming on and sharing his expertise in this area.Next week, we will hear from college athletes sharing about their college experience in and out of the uniform. Be sure to tune in.Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students. So please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to colleges find podcast at gmail. com. Or 929 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or [00:44:00] give us feedback about an episode.Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Colleges Find Podcast for episode announcements and resources. And last but not least, if you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the podcast. Every hit of that plus button helps us keep going.I'm Dr. Sarah Olivo and I'm Dr. Liz Seidler and you're listening to college is fine. Everything's fine. Hi, welcome to the second episode in our series on college sports and mental health. Last week, we had the perspective of an NBAA coach. And our next few episodes, you're going to get to hear from current and former student athletes.But today we are so lucky to bring in psychology, heavy hitter, Dr. Jonathan Bader, we'll give a longer intro in a bit, but if you read our episode description, you know, this guy really knows his stuff. And by the end of this episode, you're going to have a deeper [00:45:00] understanding of why confidence wins over ego every time helpful send is more important than just when, and the one tip Dr.Bader would give to athletes if he only had 60 seconds. And yes, this guy's a lot of information in his brain. I mean, you're going to hear him lap me when I try to remember a famous Viktor Frankl quote. But we were just as struck by his thoughtfulness and humor. It was obvious that Fader lives by the creed of he preaches, which is that we should see humans first, athletes second.And last but not least, you're going to see how much money I had to put in my spare jar. SoI'm really excited today. We have Dr. Jonathan Bader, who's a licensed clinical and sports psychologist in New York City. He's the co founder of the Union Square practice in the city, and he's well known for his work with professional athletes. It's in the MLB and NFL, including our local New York Mets and Giants.He's the author of life is sport. What top athletes can teach [00:46:00] you about how to win in life, which adapts the skills. He teaches elite athletes to everyday life. He's been a regular guest on national media platforms, including his popular Ted talk, when the game of life with sports psychology on how you can be your elite self using the same principles fader uses with high performing athletes.Thanks. Bye. And lastly, in the clinical psychology world that Sarah and I live in, Dr. Feder is a nationally recognized motivational interviewing trainer, which is an evidence based intervention to elicit and help strengthen motivation for change. So you are a man of many hats, so hopefully I did a good job covering all of them.You did great. I sounded like I have a dashery in there. You did a great job. I'm going to do my best in this talk Liz and Sarah to live up to that. All right. So one thing we learned, you know, we met over a decade ago through colleagues and I just, you know, I had known you as, Oh, Jonathan Fader, or I talked to Jonathan Fader the other day about a shared client or, you know, my, my work [00:47:00] wife, Samina Groves, who speaking of partners, right.Great partners. I know, you know, her a little bit better, but. So I, you know, we're coming at you as like, Oh, John, Jonathan, but it sounds like fader. You prefer fader. I mean, talk about different hats. I mean, sometimes I have to ask myself what my name is, but fader is an emergence. I'd say of three factors.One is it's what my wife calls me. That's what my, my best friends call me. And in sports, everybody gets a name. And when you have a last name like fader, it just sort of sticks actually in football. They, they tended to call me fader aid. It was like my nickname, in fact, I appeared on the schedule when I was with the Giants every week as Fader A for my 15 minutes with the team.And yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard to get away from that name and I think, and I, and I like it and you know, my, my dad, my mom used to call my dad Fader actually. So sometimes my wife jokes and calls me Fader Jr. Okay. So you're fond of Fader, but John and Jonathan as well. But, uh, we'll stick to the paper. I mean, I, you know, I, I respond to anything that's not an expletive, so, you know, I think we're a PG, we're a PG podcast, so just go [00:48:00] for it.All right. I don't know. have a potty mouth. You're gonna. You know, I just, Liz is like, Oh God, what did this guy just do? Sarah's gonna rip it now. Well, I mean, there is a potty mouth jar in Sarah's house and oftentimes when we're recording her kids are like, Mom, Mom, you just, I just heard you. It's so funny, some of my talks are recorded and I have talks recorded for that aren't like on social media for teams that I've given and I bring some of them home and show them to my kids and my younger daughter would, I would get in trouble.She'd be like, poppy, because, you know, we get so mad, but I'm going to keep it super clean for this. So I don't want to have to put money in Sarah's potty mouth jar. Right, right, right. It's full. So there's no, all right. So listen, you've worked with a lot. Obviously your bio is, is long and lengthy and filled with professional sports.But by the way, just so you know, in terms of people we've been in interviewing lately, your bio isn't nearly as long as some of the college students we talk to. So don't get ahead. [00:49:00] Don't get ahead. Too excited. Don't, they're so, don't get a big head. I mean, we're like, damn, man, , you making us look bad. It's like, how do you get that all accomplished?And you know, you're like 22 and you rule the world. It's pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe you can talk a little bit about your experience working with the age group that this podcast is really for that 18 to 22 ish. Range those four years when you're trying to develop yourself now longer as the high school athlete, but as a college athlete, looking at all the various factors that go into that.What's your experience with that crew? Yeah. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, my career went in reverse when it was talking about working with athletes. I mean, I started working with professional athletes, you know, first in the MLB with the New York Mets. And working six years, six years. And I worked six years for the minor leagues and then three years in the, in the big leagues and major league baseball, and then working with the New York Giants.And, and in that time in my, in my practice, our team was attracting more and more youth athletes. So then I started working with college athletes and we did a lot of work in college and [00:50:00] still do work in college environments and then working with youth athletes, you know, age 15 to 22. And, you know, I mean, it's developmental, the things you face at these different levels.Um, or developmental, I think what I would say, the thing that stands out to me the most there is that, you know, fundamentally what people are challenged by is seeing new increased levels of competition as you go. Oftentimes, you know, when you're just starting on the sport, and this is true in anything, any, any field, when you're starting out, you're kind of as good or better than anyone.And as you. As you increase and people kind of drop out of the process, you're really seeing competition. That's as good or better than you. And I find that, you know, they always talk about sports as being, you know, an art of adjustment. And I think people's ability to mentally adjust in that age. Right where you're really starting to see people who are as good or better than you, which happens usually kind of 17 to 22, whatever sport you're playing.I mean, I think that's really the biggest, [00:51:00] one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that that's what people need a lot of help with. One of the things I think about. When I work with younger kids versus this age group versus older adults, as I'm talking a lot about values and in your book, life of sport, that's a big part of it.You know, what are the things that are your, why are you motivated? I think of it as kind of the M word motivation seems like this magical thing, either have it or you don't. And a lot fewer people are saying, well, what is the thing that actually gets me out of bed in the morning? Whether I feel motivated or not younger kids.If I said, what are your values? It'd look at me with a question mark older. People who've been through a lot have had to kind of have their values tested. Maybe they know a little bit, but in the college age, I think they're trying to define their values, right? They're, they're coming from a place where either their high school or their parents or their world or community said, here are the values that we believe in.And then this is this great time of year where, or a time of your life, I should say, where people are saying, wait, I get to decide whether that's true or not. So I get to [00:52:00] decide whether the. family who really pushed me and encouraged me to play sports. Am I going to keep going? Am I going to get out of bed for me or because of that pressure I used to face?So I'm curious from your perspective, what you notice about finding the value in college that makes you adjust well, or be willing to take a hit and then get up the next day. I think it's really a great question about values and how they differ as you mature through life. And I think earlier in life, it's hard, it's harder to define what they are.So the questions I ask, you know, people who are sort of age 16 to 22 are, you know, how do you want to be remembered on this team? Another question I'll ask people is, You know, what do you wish that people said about you as a person and as an athlete, and then work backwards from there? Because I think to your point, you know, when you just ask someone what their values are, or you even do kind of like an exercise that we do a lot with people, a card sort, it's more abstract.People have trouble understanding it. [00:53:00] But I think you can work backwards from there and then name it. Right. So if you ask someone, you know, what do you hope that people remember you for? You're going to get at some of those values. If you, if you find out, and if you have to ask a question yourself, I think it's a great question to ask ourselves, like, you know, how do I want people to remember me as an athlete or as a sports psychologist or as a person?I think it's really defining, you know, ask yourself, how do you want your parents to remember you? How do you want your kids to remember you? And I think it really shows you not only your values, but I think it gives you a real clear sense of What you should, what, what, what are you motivated to do? Um, I just got through actually, I just came from before I recorded this podcast, giving a talk to the FDNY, the fire department here in New York.And one of the things that they have above the gate to the rock, which is where they trained firefighters, is a statement that says, let no man's ghost. And it should be women's as well. Let no persons, but it says, let no man's ghost come back. And say, my training let me down. That's what said on the [00:54:00] top of the thing.So as a teacher, you're going through this every day, you're reading this thing. Let no man's ghost come by, come back and tell me that my training let me down. And I mean, I think that that kind of thinking is really super motivating. And so I think it's really helpful to think about the impact of your actions.A lot of times we're really self focused. What do I get out of it? But to think about the impact that you have on your teammates, to think about the impact that you have on your parents, to think about the impact that you have on people, on spectators who are watching you, I think that can bring up a whole suite of values that you're not even aware of that you didn't know that you had.When you were just talking about that, you know, Sarah and I have obviously been talking a lot about episodes about dialectics. And I think one of the things that came up a lot with the coach we interviewed last week was I think just natural dialectical tensions that exist between what's best for the team, which should always come first, right?And what might be best for an [00:55:00] individual and their needs and their values and like how to navigate that effectively. Right. What have you seen in terms of the dialectical tensions that might exist between a team mindset, between a coach and a college athlete, an athlete and other, you know, teammates, and maybe some thoughts on like how to navigate those tensions in an effective way?You know, one of the things I always think about is, and we say, and I said in this book, I wrote called Coaching Athletes to Be Their Best, which is about motivational interviewing in sport, is It always, in my mind, coaches and athletes are so much more effective in a team if they have a humans first, athletes second.And what that means is that you as an athlete are seeing your coach as a human first. And a coach second, and that more importantly, coaches are seeing athletes as a human first and athlete second. And so, as you both know, one of the biggest concepts and how teams work well together is psychological safety, which [00:56:00] means I'm going to, I'm going to perform on my, if I know.These people are going to have my back and by having my back, I don't mean just like they're going to pass the ball to me when I need it, right. Or they're going to, you know, check someone who needs to be checked. It means that like, if I mess up, they're going to be in my corner. They're going to listen to me.They're going to, they're not going to criticize me. They might point out how I could improve. But they're not going to make me feel terribly about who I am as a person. And I think that, that when we think about what you're talking about, this idea of me as an individual versus me as a team, teams that develop more interpersonal connection are better at that.I'm where I'm ready and more willing to put away and put down, you know, what my interests if I knew not only why I'm doing it, but who I'm doing it for. And so coaches that are really good at this. Find ways to get teams together and talk about things. So what I found is actually the, one of the most effective ways to do this is to get people in [00:57:00] groups and to be able to debrief and talk about the game in a real way.And the same thing is true with first responders and people in military and settings like that, you know, that the teams that are developed a lot of trust are teams that sit around and say, you know what, I should have done this. And then it's like, wow, this is a real person with real insecurities and hangups, like all of us.And, you know, whether whoever the team is, I think, you know, machismo and being super confident and macho, like gets in the way, like it does for many people. And so to be able to, to create a sense of like, this is who I really am, then people are willing to kind of. shift and help out and let a little of their, their ego down.And many of the teams I work with are full of people with big egos. And I think if you try to, if you try to check someone like that ego, it doesn't work as well as if you try to help people understand who these people are behind the ego and have them share about themselves in a way that, [00:58:00] That gets people, you know, together and trusting each other more, right?No, one's just all ego. And it's, I think the idea of breadth versus, you know, single mindedness. We see it all the time. You know, we've talked about how one hit wonders tend to be people who don't have a wide range of musical skill or haven't kind of gone out there and tried out new things. It's the people who are kind of.Long term musicians and successful musicians because they try out a lot of new things. Same thing I can imagine in sports. If you're just all ego, well, that can work in a very specific way and circumstance, but if that's all it is, you're going to fall to pieces. It's not going to work when somehow you get an ego check and you fall apart.So, so I hear that getting to know the person behind the ego. Doesn't mean you have to get rid of the ego. You got to understand that you can, I mean, and also it's sort of like, I mean, I think what you're saying, Sarah is interesting because I talked to a lot of people about this, understanding the difference between confidence and arrogance, right?Like, you know, I think for [00:59:00] athletes to understand what true confidence is, that, you know, it's not about. And that's not to mean that, like, you're not going to give each other crap and, you know, like rise each other. I'm not talking about that. Like, that's part and parcel, but that's not having a team. You wonder where you are, but I mean, I'm really more talking about that, you know, true, true confidence is about how I feel about myself on the inside.Not how I behave vis a vis someone else. And I think the more that, that coaches set the tone about that and, and, and set the tone about ego. I mean, I have a friend Ryan holiday who wrote this book called ego is an enemy. And he talks a lot about that in detail. And I think coaches that speak to that directly and message about that and talk about that openly and talk about how everybody has to.Let go of themselves for the greater good here for us all to to move forward. I think those are the teams that develop that level of trust. I mean, some of the biggest findings in sport are that, you know, teams [01:00:00] that are successful are teams where there's a lot of clarity on what my job is. Real clarity.Like, I know, like, an example of this is a baseball outfield, right? Where, you know, there's a pop up into the outfield and, you know, everybody's like, I got it. I got it. And they're very clear guidelines. Um, All right. It's a center fielder who has the trump card. They're supposed to be able to, but I find that what you see is a lot of collisions, I think, are based on the fact that no one's clear about what that actually means.People don't talk with, you know, clear communication about how they're going to communicate beforehand. And then part of the issue is role acceptance. Right. It's like, has this person really accepted that when this center fielder calls them off, they're going to do it. And so great coaches notice this and have, you know, open ended conversations with people.And I think great athletes do it with each other. They're not afraid to be able to say, Hey, listen, like what, what, in that situation, how are we going to play it? What are we going to do? How are you calling me off? Right. And I think, you know, no one likes to, just like us, I [01:01:00] mean, every, no one wants to practice ahead of time.It's kind of boring. Right. Like to practice your talk or whatever it is, but I mean, if you do that, you're really inoculating yourself against all the stress and you're also anticipating what might be going on for you in these kind of, you know, high risk communication situations. I wanted to go back to that idea and kind of piggyback on something you said in terms of our next question, which is the idea of humans, first athletes, second, and a lot of what you just described is around team, but a lot of people are individual athletes or they are runners.Perhaps they're swimmers. I mean, they're competing against people in a group, but ultimately all eyes are on them. And so we think a lot about this idea of team mind or athlete mind. Versus human mind, student mind. I think that there's a lot of times where having that confidence or sort of riling each other up or giving each other shit, oops, swear jar.Sorry. Giving it, get talking back [01:02:00] PG 13. You know, that feels good on the court where it kind of makes sense as part of a team or part of a group. If you're doing that to yourself, when you take a test, well, that doesn't work as well. So can you talk a little bit about when you notice. When team mind or athlete mind works really well.And when someone might need to transition more to human individual student mind. What you're getting at is really what we call is self messaging. And in my mind, there, there are two things that happen with self messaging. One is the internal kind of process I have in my mind, whether I'm an individual athlete or I'm on a team, most people don't spend enough time.Creating self awareness about what they're saying to themselves. They're just not aware that there are these messages going back and forth in their mind, because sometimes they're almost not even words. They're just kind of like, you know, diffuse thought processes. But if you slow it down and you realize whether I'm on a team or an individual, I have this kind of running dialogue that's happening.[01:03:00] And even just doing that is important, but I think where it comes together is, and, you know, the more that there is kind of a, a. Team discussion of what the message is, and the more that everybody buys into it, the better that kind of team mind can be. So, for example, like one year, the Giants had this idea of all in, and it was just like a short message that people kind of bought into.And I think actually great athletes and great teams really do a good job of what's called theming. They come up with like a theme that they're all bought into and that they're all racing against. So I think, I mean, for me, you know, a team is a group of people that is aligned around a common purpose. And the more that their inner self talk is connected to this outer idea that they're all striving towards and that it has substance to it.That one time I came into a locker room, I don't want to say where, but it was just written on a board that just said, just win, right? And like, that's great, but that's not [01:04:00] really a helpful way to think. Right. And so teams that have, have thought about, you know, there's a, uh, Sean white snowboarder has a phrase that he uses sometimes it says, full send.Yeah. And I really love that, right? Because that's something that you have control over, right? Saying full send, which means for him, basically like showing up fully and giving his everything he has. Like if a team develops that attitude and something they're saying internally, individual mind, but also as a group team mind, that's pretty powerful.It's a something that they all control. You don't control if you win. Yeah. Absolutely. But you do control if you have a full set, I don't, I don't control whether, like, in this podcast, you know, I, you know, when you're looking at iOS, it gets 5 star ratings, but we certainly control whether we full set, whether 3 of us show up or energetic, committed, and whether we are aligned.In some way on that, on that mission as a team, I felt so aligned with you right now. Fader for really [01:05:00] nice. I don't trust it unless there's an F bomb in the, in the center. That's right. Okay. I fucking feel it. I fucking feel it. Oops. One more for the swear jar. I'm, I'm, I'm tallying how many? So that was two.That was two. You said it. Oh my God. I'm feeling like a Catholic school girl over here. I'm just going to look for the moment to throw one in. Uh, Okay, so as Sarah and I were preparing this, uh, like athlete series, there obviously been a lot of media coverage over the mental health crisis amongst college athletes.And I think the demands are only greater and I would say exciting for college athletes, you know, now to monetize off their image. I mean, there's a lot of changes, I think. And then, of course, at the professional level, there's been a lot of more self disclosure around mental health difficulties, you know, with Simone Biles and the YIPS, which, you know, we can define, maybe you could define for us, Vader, what that is.You know, we already know it's a vulnerable period biologically for the onset of anxiety and depressive disorders. And then take all of these [01:06:00] stressors and the pandemic and what the experience of the college athlete was then, you know, both for performance anxiety, as well as like those, you know, You know, the coach we met with, he was like, those early years for freshmen and sophomores, where they might not be getting a lot of playing time and they're failing, like, how do they sustain the motivation to kind of keep at it when they're not getting a lot of reinforcement, let's say, from their athletic performance.So we'd love to hear a little bit because we know we'll have some college athletes listening. And everyday humans like us are, right, who are not happily, like how to manage performance anxiety more effectively. Well, I mean, one of the things that you said in your question was the word failure. And I think this is typically how we refer to situations in sports.And I've always really tried to refocus coaches and players, people, on reframing how they think of that. You know, a lot of times failure is based on outcome based thinking. So, for example, let me use an example from baseball. [01:07:00] You know what I, what I would say to pitchers all the time when they came to me to say, I want to get more strikeouts, say, well, you can't.And they would say, what kind of sports psychology is this? Like, I thought you're supposed to be positive. What I'm saying is you can't get the strikeout, right? The person who's responsible for striking out is the hitter. Your job is to pick a pitch and throw it. Nolan Ryan, one of the most famous pitchers of all time, said a pitcher has two jobs, pitch selection and pitch execution.A mentor of mine, Ken Revisa, who passed a few years back, but was, you know, worked with the Cubs, helped break that curse as a sports psychologist. You know, he, he would say that a pitcher is a professional mitt hitter, right? Like, and there's so much elegance in that idea, like your job is to locate and try to hit the pitch.And so I think it reframes, I think, Liz, this idea of failure differently, right? Because if I'm thinking that because I lose the game. Or because I don't make a particular shot, I've failed or I'm a failure. That [01:08:00] actually sets me up to have a really detrimental or negative mentality. If I'm thinking, okay, that's an unwanted consequence, like that's not the result I was looking for.Let me think about what I need to do to adjust. That person is likely to be able to manage stress better. And I think that shift for people really like practicing that doesn't come easy because my belief is that we have a negative outlook as humans. We have this negative bias, right? It's how we evolved, but you know, your ability to shift that focus all the time and focus on that.I think that's one thing to really think about. I mean, the other thing I think about this is that I think we need to do a better job as people and as humans. Anticipating negative results, knowing they're going to come and knowing how we're going to respond to that. Right? So let me give you an analogy, you know, for, you know, I've worked although I haven't run a marathon and I get teased a lot for this.I highly suggest it. Yes. So what's the most difficult part about a marathon? The last 6 miles. Right. [01:09:00] So people call it the wall, right? It's this mental place where it's like, you know, and that, that mile I've, I've kind of fixated on the people I've worked with on mile 19 to like 21 is like, that's where you're really mentally up against it.So you didn't hesitate at all. But if you ask a college athlete or anyone when they're coming into college, when and what do you anticipate being the hardest parts of this experience for you? They won't know. And so I think we as people and college in general should be better at saying, I'm going to have these struggles.Definitely. I'm going to have unwanted results. And when I get those unwanted results, this is what I'm going to do. These are, to use your words, like the, you know, anxiety or stress management techniques I'm going to go to, you know, as Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.So you are going to get punched in the face. Right. And so I think a lot of this is about anticipating those [01:10:00] negative results, not just like going into it hopeful and saying, I'm going to kill it, but be able to say like, no, no, of course I'm going to have these results and you know, just seeing thousands of athletes at different levels, I think the ones that have achieved the most are the ones that are really resilient, have excellent filters.results. Don't think of them as failures. Think of them as, you know, experiences where they weren't, didn't show up with their best stuff and curious as to why. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine, you know, it's interesting. You brought up the outcomes versus process that, you know, after our interview with the coach we just spoke with last week, he said it's like a dialectic I struggle with is.Which is understandable. He's paid for certain outcomes, right? Like maintaining his job as, as the coach is like the process and the experience versus being outcome focused. And. I feel like now more than ever, that's got to be so hard for college athletes to kind of do some reframing there, given the kind of reinforcement they can get for outcomes, like to steer their, their mind away from that [01:11:00] or think about it in a different way.I mean, it's such a paradox. Yeah. And I think it's a paradox for everyone. I mean, I see this in every aspect of life in business, you know, coaching people on hedge funds, you know, everybody's focused on the PNL, but in reality, like you don't, you don't directly control that. Or even in our work as psychologists, whether we're doing sports psychology or working with someone who's depressed.The real curious paradox is that you, in order to be at your best, you have to let go of what you want to happen and same time be fully invested in the process. I mean, I show a video at different talks of Brian Cranston that started breaking bad. Where he's talking about, he's interviewed at some award show at the Oscars and they're interviewing him about how did he have a shift in his career?Cause you know, he was okay doing somewhat successful in sitcoms and then all of a sudden, you know, he got Breaking Bad and his kind of career turned around. And he had this great thing to say, which he was like, look, I used to go into, into auditions thinking I'm trying to get this job. And he [01:12:00] said, one day I just kind of had this realization that you know what?That's not helpful. I need to go in there and be this character. And leave it all out there on the table, full send, right. Do you use, you know, the Sean White idea and that, that led to him getting more jobs. And I think Liz, that's such a real challenge, right. Is to be fully invested in the process, but fully let go of the outcome.Because if you're focused on the outcome, you're, you're wasting. energy and mental ability and even working memory that you can use to be at your best in the sport that you're actually playing. Yeah. You say paradox. We say dialectic, right? How can you balance things like acceptance and change? So All right, to regroup a little bit on what you've already talked about.You said noticing the paradox and being aware of it and kind of which side maybe you're being too extreme on and rebalancing can help. You said noticing that self [01:13:00] talk and that sort of this, the way you just talk to yourself, even if that's some conscious level, being more aware of that and shifting that more towards a hopeful, positive self talk.Redefining failure. And anticipating and planning for failure, knowing why you're playing. So being aware of your values and your motivations and thinking more about process outcome versus results outcome. Is there any last thing you feel like, Hey, I would, before we hop off this, I would want a college student to remember in terms of when it gets hard or when they need to push through what you'd want to have them, a skill or a tool you'd want them to know about.Are we missing anything? I mean, there's so many, I mean, but I think I would say that the, you know, if, if, if I was summoned by a college student, I only had like 60 seconds to talk to them. I think I would say the following 1, I would say is all things have a beginning, middle and an end. And that when you're in the heat of it, it's really important [01:14:00] to mentally kind of time travel and really think about how will I experience this later on down the road.And then there's two reasons for doing that. One is in the moment you'll get relief, but two, you'll build up the ability for perspective taking, which is a real core skill to be able to think about your experience from different angles. We call it zooming out in sports psychology and being able to look at yourself and say.You know, I wonder how I'll look at tomorrow, if you can't get to next year, like, how will I look at this tomorrow? I mean, that's one thing. I think the other thing I think about is that, you know, developing the ability to have things that you do every day that create a better filter for yourself to stress.And there are like a zillion things that you can do. But one of the things that we find that people perform when people aren't performing at their best. It's usually because they're trying to prepare or [01:15:00] reflect when they need to be executing. This is true of test taking. This is true of, you know, giving a talk.This is true of this podcast. If I'm in the moment thinking, wow, what should I say? You're talking to Liz about the YIPS. The YIPS is basically thinking while you should be acting. Um, and so So, you know, I've found that that developing a set of exercises that you're doing every day, and that could be anything from mindfulness, it could be performance imagery, which is a technique of mentally rehearsing things.It could be having certain self statements that you use, but developing a routine that you're doing every day that that inoculates you to that stress. And. And gets you ready for it. So I think those are the two things I think about. What are we doing every day? We all, most people engage in exercise, but what are we doing every day for our mental flexibility and mental strength?And then how good are you? Can you get at, at perspective taking, I'll just say one last thing, which is. Annie Duke, the, the poker player, one of the [01:16:00] most successful female poker players, actually of all time. She has a technique where she uses called time traveling, which when she gets in a situation where she feels stress that or she has negative outcome, what we might think of traditionally as a failure is that she kind of closes her eyes and she time travels, like she actually imagines herself.In the future, we know that people who are 17 to 22 are not as good at that as people who are say, 30 or 40. And so you can build your skills at that as a younger person by just time traveling and, you know, getting better at that, that sense of, you know, Oh, I'll feel like this now, but I won't feel like this later.That was a good, strong 60 seconds. So if it, if it's okay with you, we're going to put it out there that students across the globe can just come to you and ask for that 60 second, one hit, is that okay? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be, I'll be, I'll be waiting for them at your house. [01:17:00] Your price of admission is swearing into the swear jar.I've already given us so much good stuff, but I do want to put it out there that a lot of students right now, despite the fact that There is more conversation among across the board and more support across the board about valuing mental health for college student athletes. We are also seeing maybe for better or for worse, more people coming out and saying, I'm really struggling with this.A lot of what we talk about is what are the skills that college students can have, but let's take it out. And to your point, zoom out a little bit more. What are the ways you think maybe as a sports psychologist, from that perspective, that we as a culture. As professionals can also support this because it, it is about the athlete taking on that role and learning skills to manage it.But the truth is that it's bigger than that too. What do you think we can do, or what do you think might need to happen for this to become [01:18:00] more encompassing? Well, I mean, I think two things come to mind, well, three things. One is, is limiting the amount of input that is divisive and stressful. And, you know, I was talking to a friend who was talking about Shaq and how Shaq said, like, you know, there are two reasons to use social media.To support someone else or to be funny That's pretty good advice And so I think like, you know in general just thinking like it's what we're putting into the world Something that's going to be positive or uplifting for other people and if it's not then really questioning why you're doing it That's one.I think two is if there's one universal donor To making the world a better place. It's getting better at listening and it's, it's one of the most important, I think, skills for the survival of our society and one of the most [01:19:00] under practice skills and by listening, I mean, listening to understand rather than to respond.And so I think. If, if all you do is really work on your own ability to ask yourself, what is this person saying to me, what do they mean? What are they feeling? I think the world is all these situations are better. And the last thing I think is, you know, at the most basic level, there's so much research to say that humans are better off if they induce the relaxation response in their lives.And many of us just don't, you know, we, there's, it's just the opposite. There's so many, so much running around and doing, and in my life, there's a ton of that, I mean, I'm on this podcast, I just gave a talk, I'm going to another meeting, but I certainly make time every day to kind of take my nervous system down and to let it reset.And in my view, that's just not done enough. And we have [01:20:00] tremendous demands. Emotionally, cognitively, intellectually, and that we don't offset it by, you know, giving our system a rest. I like that you said it can trickle down from up top, right? Kind of social media and that it also is about across the board listening, whether that's your coach, your teammate, or honestly, the presidents of these universities who are paying the coach based on performance, can they listen about maybe that's.Creating more of a paradox that we want. Okay. Give me a dialectic you recently dealt with in your personal life. I think the biggest dialectic is for me is around parenting and practicing what I preach about listening versus fixing and about, you know, being able to, you know, really, really listen deeply and also to know when to, you know, jump in and, and teach.I hear you. Come on. All right. Song you listened to to cheer you up. What's your pump song? I'm listening [01:21:00] to like a lot of stuff by this Nigerian artist, William Anabur, who's like, has a lot of like, funk, jazz, really, really cool stuff. He's a box set on iTunes. It's pretty funky. We had a big talk about the F word failure.So a time recently that maybe you experienced something and labeled it as a failure and had to practice your skills you spoke about as reframing it. Let's see. It doesn't have to be recent. Yeah. Micro failure. I'm just trying to think about, I mean, I think I feel that way every time that online seemed to be about parenting, but I really work really hard to be patient.And I think whenever I lose my patience, With my kids, I have to like, really work through that. I've noticed that 1 of the things that's really helpful for that is, is apologizing. And I found that. You know, I've made great strides with my kids with when I have, like, an unwanted kind of. [01:22:00] Situation with with them to be able to apologize and also to kind of, like, explain in detail, like, what led me to.You know, be impatient. Love it. Apologizing. All right. You can just say one words for this. It doesn't have to be anything huge, but favorite way to cope. If you had to choose one activity, what do you choose? It doesn't have to be that favorite way to cope. Favorite way to cope, I would say is gratitude.Gratitude. And favorite mental health resource, book, podcast, blog. You have to choose one. What would it be? Probably man search for meaning by Victor Frankel. Love it. And one, what's that phrase? You know, I always take it. So I always steal from him the pause between. It's, it's, I always forget it. Between stimulus and response, there's a space, and in that space is our choice, and in that choice is our freedom.I would like to take your working memory. I would like to have it myself. Thank you very much. Well, I mean, it's just, I, I, I actually, funny enough, said that 90 minutes [01:23:00] ago. So. There you go. It was top of mind. Thank you for making me feel better. I just have to say it more. Vader. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic.Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. That was a blast. I really, it was, I enjoyed talking to you too. It seems like a really cool show.I think Sarah and I can both say after listening to that episode, we're both fascinated by the mental aspects of sports and continue to be in awe. of college athletes in terms of their mental and physical stamina. I'm hoping everyone also left the interview listening to Fader and thinking about how we can approach our lives in the same way that an athlete may approach their sport with this kind of same curiosity, urgency, and active engagement in life.There's a couple things that fader [01:24:00] talked about that we felt like might be helpful to revisit and kind of summarize in a concise way so that you leave this episode with tangible tips, even if you aren't a college athlete, you know, one of the first. Things that comes to mind that I found really helpful, just as a human, is that it's beneficial to anticipate struggles and unwanted results, and college is filled with difficult moments, and sometimes us not experiencing the goals that we've set for ourselves.And some of the tips that Vader spoke about is really ahead of time, anticipating that things are going to be challenging, that you might not get the outcomes that you want, and what anxiety or stress management tools are in your toolkit. Are you going to. meditate? Are you going to exercise? Are you going to reach out for social support?Are there things you could [01:25:00] do to physiologically manage stress more effectively in terms of learning breathing techniques? The second thing that I felt was really beneficial that Fader spoke about was even though athletes you know, are hopeful about their ability to kind of kill it on the court or on the field.He said that successful college athletes likely are really excellent at filtering out negative results, that they don't think about their experiences as failures, but rather think about it that they didn't show up that day in their best self and are curious as to why they didn't perform in the way that they expected.And I think this is a really valuable tool as you go through college to really reframe failures as an opportunity to kind of learn. And when he says be curious, it's like about being thoughtful about maybe why things went the way they did [01:26:00] in a really nonjudgmental way. And that this led in his explanation to more resiliency, emotionally.The other things he shared was about how important it is for athletes to zoom out and have perspective taking, think about things from a lot of different angles. And in addition to that, have everyday habits to inoculate yourself against stress. Whether this is performance imagery, using mindfulness techniques, really being mindful of your sleep.You know, really thinking about what can I do to kind of for against stress rather than waiting until you experience it and potentially burn out. And the last thing we'll leave with, and I really loved this. I actually looked into some interviews after this about Sean White, this concept of doing something full send, meaning athletes are successful.He's seen Do things full throttle with 100 percent commitment, [01:27:00] even if you end up failing and our coach last week spoke about this. How can we be more process focused versus maybe being outcome focused? So how do we get away from focusing on outcomes, whether they're positive or negative and really focus on the process and the effort to get there?And how do we do that? Like 100%? Yeah. Absolutely. And I think this relates to other concepts Sarah and I spoke about, about being mindful and fully participating and being in the moment. So I hope you all love this interview as much as we did. We really appreciate Dr. Feder coming on and sharing his expertise in this area.Next week, we will hear from college athletes sharing about their college experience in and out of the uniform. Be sure to tune in.[01:28:00] Thank you to our guests for sharing their stories and their advice. This podcast is for college students and we want input by college students. So please reach out by text, email, or voice memo to colleges find podcast at gmail. com. Or 929 500 2231. Tell us your story, give us tips on topics you'd like to hear, or give us feedback about an episode.Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Colleges Find Podcast for episode announcements and resources. And last but not least, if you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to the podcast. Every hit of that plus button helps us keep going.