Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 95. The emotional journey of surrogacy and parenting with Stephanie Bosello

Transcript

95. The emotional journey of surrogacy and parenting with Stephanie Bosello · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

• 0:00
  Welcome back to the All Figured Out podcast.
• 0:02
  I'm your host Andrea Barr, and today is just one of those
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  conversations that I feel really incredibly honored to get to
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  share. I am joined by my neighbor and
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  now friend Steph Barcello. She's a working mom of two.
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  I want to see redheaded, but they're more strawberry blonde
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  boys who I'm just painting a picture here.
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  They are constantly ripping around on their bikes in our
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  neighborhood. They are so fearless and
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  hysterical. It's the best.
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  But she in, you know, in instead of just talking about her boys,
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  we get into a really beautiful story that she is so gracious to
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  be sharing with us. And it is beyond motherhood.
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  It's beyond the day-to-day juggle of being a clinical
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  counselor in a school, which is what staff does as her 9:00 to
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  5:00. But she actually recently made
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  one of the biggest and truly most selfless decisions of her
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  life, and that was to agree to become a surrogate for a family
• 1:04
  member. This episode isn't just about
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  surrogacy. It's just about the the weight
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  of our choices as parents, the ripple effect that those choices
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  can have on our kids, on our families, and what it means to
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  really act in alignment with what matters most to you and how
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  we make decisions, like how we actually make decisions that are
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  big and, and have a lot of consequences.
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  Steph walks us through the legal, emotional and logistical
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  side of carrying a baby for somebody else.
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  And sometimes the heartbreak that comes with that.
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  This is a story of hope. It's a story of grief.
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  It's a story of living in purpose and in connection with
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  those you love. And I just left me speechless so
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  many times. So I know you're going to enjoy
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  this episode. I know that it will bring up
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  feels like did for me, but it is just such, it's such a good one.
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  So please enjoy and thank you staff for being so brave and for
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  sharing your story with us. You're listening to the All
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  Figured out podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
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  I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
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  self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
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  After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
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  and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
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  No parent. Has it all figured?
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  Out, and that's OK. Here we're all about growing
• 2:30
  personally and professionally while keeping family time
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  sacred. You'll get practical tips,
• 2:36
  career strategies, and musings on life, plus guest experts to
• 2:39
  help us. Fill in the gaps.
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  So grab a coffee or hide in your car for some need time.
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  We're about to figure out this work life and parenting.
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  Stuff Out Together Staff Porcello, thank you for joining
• 2:53
  me on the All Figured Out podcast.
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  Thank you for having me, this is my first time.
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  Well, so far you're doing great. You're doing, you're doing
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  great. And you texted me saying my
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  computer is charged and I'm feeling good.
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  Well, you know, but the feeling good part.
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  But I think that was insinuated. It was implied.
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  So Steph and I are three, Three down neighbors, 2 down
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  neighbors. Now there's one person between
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  us. Yeah, yes.
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  Two people between 2 two and which is so fun when I get to
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  have conversations like this with that I think are like
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  really interesting, pretty wild stories that just happened to be
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  like you're just you're literally in my backyard.
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  Our children play in that little corridor courtyard thing.
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  We've gotten this backyard. We have like a shared communal
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  space in our townhouse complex and through just like, you know,
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  idle chatter while the kids play, I've obviously gotten to
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  know you. We've become great friends and
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  little bits of your story have been teased out.
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  And I've was, you know, it was a privilege to learn a bit about
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  your story, your most recent part of your story and your
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  parenting journey and following up and asking.
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  And you've been being very open about some of the things have
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  been going on. So and that is the topic of
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  surrogacy, which we will speak about.
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  But you also said, let's go, let's take it back because you
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  said you had your parents had careers that kind of had you to
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  have some pretty fun childhood experiences.
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  So take us back. Tell us a little bit about where
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  you grew up, what it was like, and some of these experiences
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  that you were talking about. That's right.
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  So my parents are both educators.
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  My mom worked at a as a French high school teacher in
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  Vancouver, and my dad worked as an art teacher in Vancouver and
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  photography and all those fun things.
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  And they actually met through, you know, education.
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  So that's kind of cool. But yeah, we kind of grew up on
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  the other side of the bridge, they put it.
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  So I'm not a North Bend local. I grew up in North Burnaby.
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  And when I was, oh goodness, 1997.
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  OK, so I'm, I'm going to bring us back a few years.
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  At 10 years of age, my parents decided that they could take
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  their careers abroad, which I thought was really cool.
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  So my sister was about 7:00 at the time and I was 10 and we
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  decided to just jet off to Italy, where my dad was born and
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  raised. And yeah, he ended up finding a
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  job in a high school there, and my mom decided not to work,
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  which was pretty nice. And we just hung out there.
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  So my sister and I did a year of school over there with some
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  cousins of ours. And yeah, it was just kind of
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  opened my eyes to the reality that, like, you know, you can
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  have a career, you can be a parent, but you can also do cool
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  things as well. It's not just limited to staying
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  home or doing this and that. So anyways, that was a really
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  cool trip. That is so cool.
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  And and so you guys were you were in that phase of being kids
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  where I feel like a lot of us would shy away from like, oh,
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  but how could we pull our kids out of school for a year?
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  But when you look back on that, what did that year, what was
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  that year like for you now that you think back?
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  Yeah, You know, it was a long time ago, but now that I think
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  back on it, I was excited. I've always been in for an
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  adventure. Like I'm not a huge risk taker,
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  but I always think that, you know, it's important.
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  I knew that I had family over there and roots over there.
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  My dad and his family were the the only family to immigrate to
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  Canada. So it was all kind of like this
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  wild adventure. And I was, I was there for it.
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  Like I thought it would be really cool to be in a different
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  school. There were definitely some
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  cultural aspects that I had to like adjust to, but it was, it
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  was, I mean, it was a privilege. I don't know what else to say.
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  It was really, really cool. And you know what, I knew that
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  we were coming back. Like we knew that there was an
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  end insight. And so that transition, it was,
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  I don't know, it was easier because we knew, OK, we're going
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  back to the same school, we're going to have the same friends,
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  we're living in the same community.
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  So I think just to know that was really, really special.
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  That's so cool. And getting to spend time with
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  cousins. Wait, I have to ask was did you
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  go to an International School? I'd imagine.
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  No, it was, it's such a small town in northern Italy, Bassano
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  del Grappa. And I just went to the school
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  that my cousins were enrolled at.
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  And I think my parents kind of did that.
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  Like I was a pretty shy kid. I'm still pretty shy today.
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  And, you know, my, my cousins were able to kind of make it a
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  little bit of an easier experience and transition for my
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  sister and I because we had also grown up not really speaking
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  Italian like we had heard it here and there in the house.
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  And certainly with my Noni, who didn't speak much English at
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  all. But, you know, just that.
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  And in and of itself, just that the language barrier was a
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  little tricky, but we made it happen.
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  So you were going to school in Italian?
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  Yeah, yeah, I was. And you know what, I remember
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  being that kid, you know, would be pulled from the class and I
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  would have to do my like ink or not.
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  Sorry, not English language learning, but I'd have to do the
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  Italian language. And, you know, I thought it was
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  cool, but honestly, I was like, I'm going back to Canada.
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  Eventually. Crazy.
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  Yeah. And you didn't get held back a
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  grade when you went back to Canada?
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  No, shockingly, didn't. No.
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  Sweet. Yeah.
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  Yeah, so cool. Would you do something?
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  Would you and Brent, your husband, do something like that?
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  You know what, I hope so. We we talked about it kind of
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  before we became parents and when I embarked on my own
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  journey and education, you know, before we had kids, I always
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  thought, hey, it would be so cool to have a similar adventure
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  just for our kids to kind of expand their world, get to know
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  different culture, meet some new people.
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  So I mean, they're still young right now, but we'll see.
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  I'm certainly open to it. That's so cool.
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  So you do have two little boys who in your bio you wrote.
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  Oh, another fact I suppose is I'm a mom of two boys who are
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  can be seen fearless. Was it fearlessly ripping around
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  the neighborhood on their bikes? Oh yeah, I think they give
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  everybody a heart attack in this neighborhood.
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  They go straight for the cars. Oh.
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  Yeah, absolutely. No Fear, just overconfident.
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  And Lucas bikes like his brakes don't even work, so you know.
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  Yeah, yeah, they are hysterical. They are far No 5. 666.
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  Almost 4, almost 3 1/2, yeah. Yeah.
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  Yeah. So you became a parent before
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  that in your career. You are a clinical counselor.
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  You work in the school system. So you're supporting kids who
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  have, you know, different needs and abilities and challenges,
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  and they're working with their families.
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  You always say it's, like, a lot of actually working with the
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  parents. Yeah.
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  Yeah. And then you had your own kids.
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  So you went on to maternity leaves.
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  And what was it like for you? What was your experience
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  bringing 2 little humans into the world?
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  Oh my goodness. Well, I think nothing can
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  prepare you. I'm sure that we've heard a
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  million other parents say the same thing.
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  I was again, choosing to go into education or at least as a
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  clinical counselor in a school district setting really kind of
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  made the, the maternity leave process a little more seamless.
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  So having that kind of done, you know, that was, that was nice,
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  but bringing 2 humans into the world, that was, I mean, it was
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  interesting, right? Like nothing can prepare you for
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  that. It was magical, it was
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  incredible. I've never felt so in love with
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  any other humans in the world. Um, and you know what, you just
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  kind of realize all of a sudden when you become a parent, you're
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  like, Oh my gosh, OK, I'm responsible for these humans
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  now. And it's wonderful, but it's
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  also kind of like intuitive as well.
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  Like I think we forget how much of our intuition and just like
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  our gut goes into parenting these little humans.
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  And I think that there's so much course.
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  Oh, gosh, there is a lot of course correction along the way,
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  right. So kind of learning as we go
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  along. And so, again, it did change my
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  perspective as a former educator, now a clinical
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  counselor, what it's like to have kids, what it's like to
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  parent because it's very different when you're on the
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  other side of it. You can only kind of imagine
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  until you're in it and you've got these humans that, you know,
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  or their own people. Yeah.
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  How did it shape how you looked back on your experience?
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  You were you were in the classroom, you were an educator
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  in the classroom 1st and then became a counselor within the
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  school system. How does it change your kind of
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  revisionist history around dealing with some of the parents
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  that you dealt with, dealing with some of the kids who maybe
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  had behavioral issues and you're like, oh, if only they just
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  parented better. Like did it change any of that
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  for? You a little bit, I mean, here
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  and there. I think that I've always known
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  that parenting is a very difficult job.
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  And I think one of the biggest things that I learned is that
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  there's oftentimes little control too over, you know, who
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  you get as your child, right? And so I'm kind of giggling,
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  right. So there's a lot of kind of
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  learning that goes into that. So prior to becoming a parent,
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  you know, I think that I had a lot more quick fixes and like,
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  well, you know, why wouldn't they try this or try that or
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  this seems to work for me as the teacher in this role.
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  But certainly also in talking to them also very much
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  acknowledged, you know, I'm not a parent now I, you know, I
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  can't speak to that. Like I, I'm not sure what it's
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  like having kids, but you know, these are some of like my
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  recommendations perhaps as someone who studied education,
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  child development, psychology, all of those things as a
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  background, but definitely my confidence is kind of grown in
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  some ways. And then also at the same time,
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  I'm like, Oh, I don't know how to answer that question because
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  I'm still trying to figure out what I would do as a parent.
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  So I think so. Interesting transition, yeah.
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  I have a girlfriend who's a GP who I've, I always bring, I
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  always bring her up actually. And I remember laughing that
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  she, she said that she, so she was started as a GP and was like
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  fully in her practice and everything like that before
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  having kids. And then so she'd be counseling,
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  you know, like giving like advice and like recommendations
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  and writing prescriptions and everything like that for parents
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  and new parents and kids. And she was like, after I had my
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  first baby, she's like, I am baffled that the information I
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  was sharing at the advice I was giving, she's like, I just had
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  no effing clue. And like, I can't believe some
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  of the stuff. She was like, none of it was
• 13:36
  like harmful by any means of course, but she was just like, I
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  just would have approached this conversation so differently.
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  And my God, it's so interesting. And it's like in so many of
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  these fields, like you really don't have to have lived
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  experience as a coach, as a doctor, as a counselor.
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  Like you absolutely do not have to have lived experience because
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  it's about empathy, understanding and meeting the
• 13:54
  person where they're at. And I don't know, I think
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  there's like a little something extra.
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  Like I know people who I work with as a career coach are like,
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  oh, I really appreciate that you have the perspective of a parent
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  because there's a lot of questions I probably wouldn't
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  ask or wouldn't know to ask if I didn't have that own experience.
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  So do you find that too, where you're like, oh, I know what
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  questions to be asking about the child in their environment
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  because I've actually like been there at bedtime or I've been
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  there when they're dealing with picky eating or whatever.
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  Do you find that? Oh yeah, absolutely.
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  Yeah. I think that you kind of
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  memorize that really nicely because again, you have these
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  ideas of what it's like, you know, and you can kind of again,
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  apply those skills of empathy and apply the knowledge that you
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  get in university or whatever courses you've taken and just
• 14:40
  through the experience itself. Because when you're dealing with
• 14:43
  20 little children who all have these different personalities,
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  these different interests, likes, you know, moods,
• 14:50
  behaviors and all of that, you know, you're really learning how
• 14:53
  to adapt and and whatnot. But yeah, absolutely.
• 14:57
  It kind of the changes that perspective absolutely.
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  Oh my gosh, the adult learning philosophy about how like in
• 15:04
  adult learning, when you're creating a sort of any sort of
• 15:06
  curriculum, we used to do this when I was in corporate learning
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  and development. We talked about the 70, 2010
• 15:10
  principle. 70% of learning should come from experience, 20%
• 15:15
  should come from exposure, 10% should come from education.
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  So again, this is adult learning because I know system isn't
• 15:22
  quite set up that way yet in the school system, but I always
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  think about that with like things like this where it's
• 15:27
  like, that's so interesting. Like we, we think that we need
• 15:30
  to just like keep like consuming information and learn, learn,
• 15:32
  learn, learn, learn. But like the 70% of experience
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  is really and then 20 and then 20% exposure maybe being exposed
• 15:39
  to other kids through whatever your family or friends or, or
• 15:42
  what have you. But it's so interesting hearing
• 15:45
  your perspective on that. So you brought your two babies
• 15:49
  in, you and your husband were feeling good.
• 15:52
  You were like, OK, we've got these two little rascals.
• 15:55
  Cute. That's a nice way to put it.
• 15:58
  Redheaded rascals and you're like OK, we we our family feels
• 16:04
  complete at this point that an opportunity arose where tell us
• 16:10
  I guess I I situation arose with that presented the opportunity
• 16:15
  for you to consider becoming a surrogate.
• 16:18
  Yeah, that's correct. I guess how did that unfold?
• 16:23
  So it was a very gradual, you know, there's a lot of
• 16:29
  unexpected things that happen in life, as we all know.
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  And, you know, I have a family member who has been for years
• 16:39
  struggling to conceive. And, you know, there was just
• 16:43
  kind of like this bug put in my ear about what might it be like
• 16:49
  to carry this child for them. You know, what might it be like
• 16:54
  if I could actually do this if, you know, my family were able to
• 16:59
  make it work? I mean, it's obviously a, a
• 17:02
  great gift, you know, the gift of a child.
• 17:05
  However, it's also, it comes with a lot of these like
• 17:08
  considerations and questions that you have to ask that, you
• 17:12
  know, will it fit in with our family plan?
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  Will it fit in with, you know, the conversations that we have
• 17:17
  later with our children? You know, there's a lot of those
• 17:20
  kind of considerations. But ultimately this family
• 17:24
  member, you know, through years again, of trying to go through
• 17:29
  this, this process of trying to conceive, um, they, yeah, they
• 17:35
  had kind of asked if I would be interested.
• 17:38
  And again, this is probably about a year before the actual
• 17:43
  implantation of, of the embryo occurred.
• 17:46
  But yeah, it was about a year prior.
• 17:48
  And I thought, you know what, I, I think I can do it.
• 17:50
  I think I, you know, I think I could.
• 17:52
  So, yeah, it was unexpected. But at the same time, you know,
• 17:56
  I like to think of it as like it was simultaneously like this no
• 18:01
  brainer. Like, yeah, I've got this.
• 18:03
  Like I can do it. But at the same time, this is
• 18:06
  not a term, but it was a big brainer.
• 18:08
  Like there were so many things to think about.
• 18:11
  So I don't know if that's the the way to put it, but that's
• 18:14
  exactly how it felt. I could only imagine.
• 18:17
  So yeah, what did that conversation, I guess first of
• 18:20
  all, what was the conversation with yourself like what was
• 18:22
  going through your mind around before you even broached it with
• 18:25
  Brent and said, OK, let's now have this discussion the two of
• 18:28
  us and then think about our wider family.
• 18:30
  But just like for you and thinking about carrying again
• 18:33
  and carrying a child who's not your own, like what was going
• 18:35
  through your mind? Oh, a lot.
• 18:38
  There was a lot going through my mind.
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  I think it's interesting because I don't necessarily remember
• 18:44
  there being a lot of dialogue going on in my mind, in my mind,
• 18:47
  but I remember so much visualization.
• 18:50
  I remember so vividly visualizing the process of going
• 18:55
  through a pregnancy again with a belly bud.
• 18:59
  You know, someone who's not mine but someone else's, of growing
• 19:03
  them, nurturing them. And then I could just visualize
• 19:07
  that process at the end where you know you're handing over
• 19:10
  this child or not a child, but a baby for this family to raise.
• 19:16
  I went through a lot of visualization.
• 19:19
  I don't think that I was really talking to myself or talking
• 19:22
  myself into it or out of it. It was just a lot of visualizing
• 19:27
  what that process would look like, how it would affect,
• 19:31
  again, our family, our children, our lives, but also the lives of
• 19:38
  my family members who are impacted by this the most.
• 19:42
  So I think that's kind of what was going on for me in that
• 19:45
  time. I just would Daydream quite
• 19:47
  honestly, and be distracted a lot of thinking of it about it.
• 19:51
  And that's just when I knew like I had to do it before even
• 19:56
  bringing it up to Brent. I just knew I had to do it
• 19:58
  because those visualizations at the end of the day were so
• 20:01
  beautiful and. I knew I couldn't move forward
• 20:06
  without doing something like that, so.
• 20:08
  Wow, yeah, wow. That's so powerful.
• 20:11
  I feel like I can just see that. And even you walking us through
• 20:14
  what was going through your mind, like I can only imagine
• 20:18
  walking yourself through that process.
• 20:19
  And it's not like you were trying to become a surrogate as
• 20:21
  a first time carry, like carrying a baby for the first
• 20:24
  time. So you knew kind of what your
• 20:26
  body, you know, typically did. Every pregnancy is different,
• 20:28
  but you kind of knew almost knew what to expect.
• 20:31
  So you really probably it's like a, you know, sports metaphor of
• 20:34
  like you could see the whole game going through and like see
• 20:37
  the finish and you were visualizing like what it would
• 20:39
  be like to to pass the little bib Alvin and and giving it to a
• 20:45
  family member still being that child's life.
• 20:47
  What was that feeling like? Again, I think that was what
• 20:51
  made the answer so clear in my mind was that, you know, whether
• 20:56
  or not it was going to be a situation that worked out and
• 20:59
  whether or not we even went through with it.
• 21:03
  I think again, just visualizing and knowing that, you know, this
• 21:07
  little human would be a part of my life forever and our family's
• 21:12
  life forever was again, it was a no brainer.
• 21:15
  It's just, I don't know if you're happy.
• 21:17
  If you guys do godparents or anything but I feel like that's
• 21:20
  like instant godparent status. Yeah, yeah, I guess that would.
• 21:25
  Imagine you didn't get it. I know I'd be pretty choked,
• 21:29
  yeah. Yeah, OK, so then Step 1, you
• 21:33
  know, so you're really getting into it.
• 21:35
  And then I guess discussion, the first discussion out, yeah,
• 21:39
  really was to Brent and how did I can only imagine he'd be like
• 21:42
  sure, whatever. But like he's such an easy going
• 21:44
  person, but like he is, but give us the real real like how what,
• 21:49
  what would what were the biggest things that you're like, OK, we
• 21:51
  need to really think about this and this.
• 21:54
  Yeah. You know, Brent, as you
• 21:56
  mentioned, like he's an easygoing guy and I would say
• 22:00
  that his typical responses are sure, maybe, yeah, go for it.
• 22:07
  Right. So there he's always been a very
• 22:10
  supportive, supportive partner. Like I've put him through a lot
• 22:14
  just in my own education and trying to get, you know, my, my,
• 22:18
  my career going and whatnot. And so I think, you know,
• 22:22
  because Burn had been part of our family members journey as
• 22:26
  well, I think that he had honestly had a lot of time to
• 22:30
  think about it as well. So I don't think it was
• 22:32
  necessarily a surprise when I ultimately said, hey, you know,
• 22:36
  I'm, I'm really considering doing this.
• 22:38
  Like, you know, I'm at the point now where I'm looking, you know,
• 22:42
  moving forward with these next steps.
• 22:44
  And, you know, I need to make sure you're on board.
• 22:46
  And of course, you know, as as easy going as Brent is and, you
• 22:50
  know, he's like, yeah, sure. You know, there were some
• 22:53
  questions, of course, right. You know, like, what would the
• 22:55
  impact be on our children, you know, if things didn't work out,
• 22:59
  what would that be like? You know, what would that be
• 23:02
  like mentally, emotionally, physically for me?
• 23:05
  He had a lot of concerns for my well-being just throughout that
• 23:08
  process and, and seeing me go through to other pregnancies
• 23:12
  with our children, you know, as his outsider kind of
• 23:16
  perspective, It's, it's a lot for a partner.
• 23:18
  And I think one of his other hesitations was, you know, how
• 23:23
  it would impact just like kind of our, our, our daily routine,
• 23:26
  right? And, and how it would impact the
• 23:28
  things that we regularly do. And not only that, but, you
• 23:31
  know, we have these two kids, well, at the time who were two
• 23:34
  and five, but you know, we have this kind of thing going right
• 23:40
  where we're kind of getting out of the Knapp situation.
• 23:43
  We're kind of like having, you know, our fun days.
• 23:46
  And he was kind of concerned like, well, what is another
• 23:48
  pregnancy going to do to this? You know, like it might
• 23:50
  interrupt some of these natural kind of flows that we have going
• 23:53
  on as a family. So ultimately, you know, we, we
• 23:58
  decided that yes, it was something that, you know, all of
• 24:00
  those kind of considerations, support, of course, are super
• 24:03
  important. But again, the benefit of
• 24:07
  having, you know, potential family member at the end of it,
• 24:10
  I think that outweighed all of it at the end of the day.
• 24:14
  Yeah, absolutely. I can totally see that.
• 24:16
  And those are fair questions. It would be kind of weird if you
• 24:18
  didn't have questions if he wasn't.
• 24:20
  Absolutely. You know, and it's you never
• 24:21
  really thought about the perspective of the partner who's
• 24:25
  almost really one removed from the whole situation but is just
• 24:28
  as involved in the pregnancy. Like I think about like the
• 24:31
  support that you do need from a partner.
• 24:33
  If you have a partner in a pregnancy, like you're kind of
• 24:36
  you're hitting the couch or you're doing more naps, like you
• 24:39
  need a lot more support, especially when you've got other
• 24:41
  kids at home. So that's a that's a pretty big
• 24:43
  lift for him. And and that's a big like he's
• 24:47
  not the one carrying, but like he's kind of carrying you and
• 24:51
  the family and stepping up more. So that is a big, it couldn't
• 24:54
  have been something that you're like, I'm going to do this.
• 24:56
  Like you better say yes, like it, it was.
• 24:58
  And not that he would have said no, but it's something that you
• 25:01
  really probably had to do a bit of mental gymnastics around.
• 25:03
  Like, OK, we, we have to just like, we know this is going to
• 25:07
  cause little ripples in a little bit of hardness, but we're all
• 25:11
  we, we are aware of it. We're not going to be surprised
• 25:13
  by it. And we're just gonna This is a
• 25:15
  blip in time and that sort of thing.
• 25:18
  And ultimately, you know, I would never have, you know,
• 25:22
  moved forward or we would have never moved forward with it
• 25:25
  without being 100% fully on board, right.
• 25:29
  You know, any sort of question that didn't go answered or if
• 25:33
  there were any sort of hesitation, like it just
• 25:36
  wouldn't be worth that. So yeah, we had to be very much
• 25:40
  in alignment on what our vision was and ultimately, again, what
• 25:45
  what the outcome would be and whether or not that would be
• 25:48
  worth it for our family. And of course, you know, again,
• 25:51
  no brainer. It was worth it.
• 25:53
  Yes, yes. OK.
• 25:54
  Now my next series of questions are going to be more logistics
• 25:58
  nature because I'm very curious about the logistics of all this.
• 26:01
  First of all, as you're kind of deciding and, and deciding if
• 26:04
  you want to do this as it relates to your career, what
• 26:10
  would the impact of been on the, on your job and your career if
• 26:14
  you were a surrogate? At what point would you tell
• 26:17
  them? At what point do you go on a
• 26:19
  leave? How long do you even, you know,
• 26:21
  what are some of those things? And I know you're in education,
• 26:23
  so you're, I don't want to say protected by the like the
• 26:26
  education system is a bit more rigid.
• 26:28
  They've done, they've basically dealt with every situation I
• 26:31
  think possible, but like, tell us what was that?
• 26:33
  What was that thought process like and what are the rules and
• 26:36
  stuff around that? Yeah.
• 26:38
  You know what, That's a very interesting question because
• 26:41
  again, I was going through this all for the first time as well
• 26:44
  seeing. Just sorry, OK, OK.
• 26:48
  As you were saying, it's an interesting question because,
• 26:51
  well. You know what, I was going
• 26:52
  through it for the first time, right?
• 26:53
  It was kind of unexpected. It wasn't like I was thinking,
• 26:57
  you know, this was part of my master plan to become a
• 26:59
  surrogate. And then when of course, it did
• 27:02
  become a reality and of course, prior to like, you know, talking
• 27:05
  to my work and trying to figure out like the leave of absence
• 27:08
  and all of those kind of pieces that went into it, You know,
• 27:11
  there are like legal things that you have to go through and
• 27:16
  agreements. So there's counseling that you
• 27:17
  have to also go through. So there's all these kind of
• 27:20
  hoops that you have to jump in order to get that final approval
• 27:24
  to become a surrogate. But in terms of my work, again,
• 27:29
  that was another factor that did really help support the decision
• 27:34
  to move forward with surrogacy. Just again, having the
• 27:38
  experience, the experience of going through 2 pregnancies and
• 27:43
  having two maternity leaves, the, the process did seem very
• 27:47
  clear. However, when I contacted, you
• 27:50
  know, I work for a school district and when I contacted
• 27:54
  their union, it was really interesting in that they had
• 27:57
  never had someone inquire about the maternity leave benefits for
• 28:03
  a surrogate. So both them and I were kind of
• 28:06
  left on this path of trying to figure out, well, what are they
• 28:11
  going to be like? Will I receive a maternity
• 28:14
  leave? Will I receive any sort of top
• 28:16
  up? Will I still be entitled to some
• 28:19
  of the, you know, the medical pieces that were were given
• 28:23
  during pregnancy? So there were a lot of unknowns
• 28:26
  despite a lot of our protocol, procedure, all of that policy
• 28:30
  being very, very, very clear. In other situations, again, we
• 28:34
  did find out that, you know, I would be entitled to the
• 28:37
  maternity leave. And again, I had mapped that out
• 28:40
  and I was quite pleased with it all.
• 28:42
  I was, you know, feeling ready again, to move forward as a
• 28:44
  result of that. But again, just when you think,
• 28:47
  OK, well, I can do this again, you call up the the folks at the
• 28:51
  union that that can help support you.
• 28:53
  And they're like, Oh my gosh, we have no clue.
• 28:56
  We've never talked to a surrogate before.
• 28:58
  We really don't know. But that being said, I felt very
• 29:01
  supported by them. And yeah, I managed to to come
• 29:06
  up with a plan that we could put in place.
• 29:08
  OK. And do you mind sharing kind of
• 29:10
  roughly what that what that looked like even?
• 29:13
  And was this something they were coming up for with you or did
• 29:15
  they have to kind of go to like other districts to be like, OK,
• 29:19
  what is like, was it something they they and you made-up
• 29:22
  together or was did they end up figuring out what the protocol
• 29:25
  was? Yeah.
• 29:26
  So I know that they did have to consult with another district,
• 29:30
  so they get a little more clarification.
• 29:33
  But ultimately it turned out really well.
• 29:35
  It was just the same as any other maternity leave.
• 29:38
  So it wasn't a situation where, you know, it would be, you know,
• 29:42
  exclusive to surrogates, for example.
• 29:45
  It would be, again, all of the benefits that I would be
• 29:47
  entitled to were exactly the same.
• 29:50
  So it kind of worked out really well in that sense because you
• 29:53
  know, without with, with it being a little unpredictable at
• 29:57
  the end of it all, it became very predictable.
• 29:59
  I'm like, OK, I know what I'm in for.
• 30:01
  I know what to expect. I know how these benefits are
• 30:04
  going to affect me. And again, some of those
• 30:06
  considerations to become involved in like the legal
• 30:11
  process too and the legal planning that you have to do is
• 30:14
  again is another box to check in becoming a surrogate.
• 30:19
  Wow. So you could have, what was
• 30:21
  your, what was your plan? Were you hoping to take, I mean,
• 30:24
  at least a couple months off to recover your body and, you know,
• 30:27
  do postpartum things like all that type of thing?
• 30:30
  What were you thinking? Yeah, again.
• 30:32
  So I I had more of a visualization.
• 30:34
  You know, I had my maternity leaves with both of my children.
• 30:37
  And I mean, I had imagined it would look very different,
• 30:41
  right? So in, in my visualizations, it
• 30:44
  was very much more the physical and emotional recovery of, of
• 30:48
  giving birth, however that may have looked.
• 30:52
  And it was also, yeah, just kind of considering the, you know,
• 31:00
  how much, yeah, like it was considering more of like the
• 31:02
  physical aspect of it instead of the actual nurturing and, and
• 31:07
  whatnot response to the, the baby that wouldn't ultimately be
• 31:10
  mine, right. So I had to think more about
• 31:13
  that. And to be perfectly honest, I
• 31:16
  was even thinking like, you know what, if I can get another year
• 31:19
  of maternity leave and I am entitled to those days, how
• 31:23
  wonderful would it be to have, again, more time with my own
• 31:26
  children, more time to do school pickups, drop offs and, and just
• 31:30
  pull my kids out of daycare every once in a while to have a
• 31:32
  day with them. So that's kind of where my head
• 31:35
  was at. Wow, and go snuggle like a new
• 31:38
  baby whenever you wanted. Oht yeah.
• 31:41
  I'm sure you were entitled to have open door policy.
• 31:44
  Yeah, yeah. That was in in the agreement.
• 31:47
  OK, so, so tell us about these agreements.
• 31:50
  So you, you, you say, wow, I can't even imagine.
• 31:53
  You say I would love to do this for you.
• 31:56
  What happens then? Yeah.
• 32:00
  So the whatever clinic that the intended parents are working
• 32:04
  with, wherever the embryo is, is stored essentially they have,
• 32:10
  you know, all of their list of things that you need to do as
• 32:13
  both an intended parent and as a gestational carrier, which is
• 32:16
  the surrogate in order to kind of move forward.
• 32:19
  So the first step in that is ensuring that you've done a
• 32:23
  session with one of their counselors to make sure that of
• 32:28
  course there is that full trust and make sure that again,
• 32:31
  mentally and emotionally, you are equipped with the skills to
• 32:36
  manage all of the things that come with a pregnancy.
• 32:40
  And this counseling goes between, you know, individuals.
• 32:44
  So myself individually, my husband individually between us
• 32:48
  as a couple, you know, our family members between them
• 32:53
  individually and together. And after that counselling
• 32:58
  process is kind of deemed OK, Well, you know, there is a
• 33:00
  trusting relationship here. There is a lot of like mutual
• 33:03
  agreement and you know, a strong foundation to kind of move
• 33:07
  forward from that emotional perspective.
• 33:09
  Then you're kind of set off on this wonderful, I'm being
• 33:12
  facetious legal journey where again, it takes a very, very
• 33:17
  long time. But you, you recognize that it
• 33:20
  is incredibly important because you know, when you're acting
• 33:23
  emotionally and sometimes you can kind of miss some of the
• 33:27
  really practical steps along the way.
• 33:29
  So considering having your will in order, considering what you
• 33:32
  would do if, for example, you were harmed or hurt or had to be
• 33:36
  on bed rest. And you know, there's all those
• 33:38
  like nitty gritty, not the kind of details you want to think
• 33:42
  about, but that you do and are forced to consider just to
• 33:46
  ensure that again, you know, throughout that process, both
• 33:49
  the intended parents and the gestational carrier are
• 33:52
  protected throughout that. Wow.
• 33:54
  Yeah. So you're because you would have
• 33:56
  to talk about again, I think your your situation with work is
• 33:59
  a different is a not a unique one, but your your unions
• 34:03
  protect you so well that there's there's already things like
• 34:07
  short term, long term disability in place.
• 34:09
  Like all these things exist. And given they were going to
• 34:11
  treat you like you're any carrying parent, I guess they
• 34:17
  they're having to look at maybe those like, what if somebody
• 34:20
  works a job that's very manual and it's like, OK, well, the
• 34:23
  government support them. Then like you have to, I guess
• 34:26
  then do your due diligence and go through all of that and work
• 34:29
  with the legal team to ensure that like you understand if
• 34:32
  this, then that and make agreements with the parents.
• 34:35
  Let's just say like so so say hypothetically, not that you're
• 34:38
  the legal expert in this, but I just find this fascinating.
• 34:40
  Like I don't know anything about this.
• 34:42
  So say there was somebody who worked at a coffee shop and that
• 34:46
  was their job, worked part time and they went on bed rest, I
• 34:50
  guess like they could probably go on short term disability or
• 34:53
  what if they couldn't do their job?
• 34:55
  Is there any situation in which the intended parents would step
• 34:59
  in to financially cover that person?
• 35:02
  Or are those agreements you're allowed to make?
• 35:04
  If Well, yeah, that's again a great question.
• 35:07
  So I had to learn, again, I'm not a lawyer, you know, but I
• 35:11
  had to learn a lot of these kind of processes and, you know,
• 35:15
  throughout this. And what I did learn is so
• 35:18
  there's two acts, I suppose there's ABC Family Law Act.
• 35:22
  I could be getting this wrong. And then there's a Human
• 35:24
  Reproduction Act and so. With human reproduction, sorry,
• 35:28
  reproduction Act being like a federal like maybe like a.
• 35:31
  Bigger, there's one federal and 1 provincial and you know what I
• 35:34
  really should know, but I don't know, but I just remember there
• 35:37
  were quite a few, you know, they used that essentially as the the
• 35:42
  two kind of main architects of this agreement.
• 35:47
  And, and really what it comes down to is so obviously in
• 35:51
  Canada, it is illegal to pay a surrogate for their services.
• 35:55
  And so that being said, you can provide again and, and, and an
• 36:00
  intended parent is required again, if that's decided legally
• 36:05
  to provide payment for certain things.
• 36:07
  So again, loss of wages is included in that.
• 36:11
  For example, sick days, right? You know, we each get like kind
• 36:14
  of a sick bank. And if I had to take them as a
• 36:16
  result of the pregnancy and not just having the flu, for
• 36:18
  example, those again would be, if agreed by both parties, you
• 36:23
  know, financial requirements of the intended parents.
• 36:27
  OK, OK. Yeah, which I have.
• 36:29
  I mean, and it's not actually obvious.
• 36:31
  I don't think a lot of people know that you can't pay a
• 36:33
  surrogate in Canada. You can't just hire a surrogate
• 36:36
  from Craigslist. OK, that's me being silly and
• 36:38
  that's very inappropriate, but you know what I mean.
• 36:41
  But that's that's no small feat though.
• 36:43
  Like that's a huge financial burden repercussion of somebody
• 36:49
  who wants to go through this arc journey.
• 36:51
  It's not like it's free for them.
• 36:54
  While you can't be paid extra on top of it.
• 36:57
  There's there's a lot of financial things to consider.
• 36:59
  I imagine as a as a parent who the intended parents.
• 37:03
  There are, yeah. And again, the legal process is,
• 37:08
  it's not necessarily enjoyable, but it's so necessary in making
• 37:11
  sure that they've ironed out all of those details.
• 37:13
  So that way again, there is an agreement mutually between two
• 37:17
  parties that if something did happen, you know, that would be
• 37:22
  put in place and. Especially sorry, go ahead.
• 37:25
  OHT just especially to when you're considering doing that
• 37:28
  with another family member, I think that it's even, you know,
• 37:32
  it's even more important to have your hearts kind of protected
• 37:35
  and also, you know, your wallets too, right?
• 37:37
  It's a very, very, very big financial investment for
• 37:41
  intended parents to begin with, just going through all of the
• 37:45
  fertility treatments and and all of that already.
• 37:48
  So again, it's mutually a very positive, you know, agreement
• 37:54
  that that you come up with to ensure that everybody's kind of
• 37:57
  protected. And will they only allow you to
• 38:00
  do the circusy go through with the journey if you have like you
• 38:04
  are required to do the legal side of it?
• 38:07
  Yeah. So you are required to do the
• 38:10
  counseling portion. Again, I don't know if it's all
• 38:13
  fertility treatment centres that require that, but I would
• 38:16
  imagine, I think it's incredibly important.
• 38:19
  But yes, the the legal component is absolutely required before
• 38:23
  they will do any sort of like transfer of embryo or or move
• 38:27
  forward with anything like that. Wow.
• 38:29
  So how long? So from the time that you said
• 38:31
  yes to the transfer, how long was that?
• 38:35
  So I, I liken it to having a baby pregnancy.
• 38:40
  It was nine months of pretty regular and consistent
• 38:45
  communication with again, family members between counseling.
• 38:50
  The legal process was, of course, the, the most lengthy
• 38:53
  because we're, we were, you know, learning together.
• 38:56
  Like none of us had ever tried it before, done this before.
• 38:59
  So we had to really be very mindful and kind of, you know,
• 39:02
  even though we wanted to be faster, we had to again, be
• 39:06
  patient and like slow down and make sure that we, we did the
• 39:08
  process right. So, yeah, it was kind of like a
• 39:11
  year when I had kind of made that decision.
• 39:13
  Like, you know, I want to do this.
• 39:15
  And then three months after when the actual ball started to roll.
• 39:19
  And then it was approximately 9 months later when I actually
• 39:23
  went in for the procedure. Yeah.
• 39:27
  That's a heck of a weight. It's a.
• 39:29
  Long time. And you know what?
• 39:31
  I, I just have to say, you know, just to go through again that
• 39:37
  waiting, right? You know, whether you're
• 39:38
  conceiving naturally or whether you're going through these
• 39:41
  fertility treatments, you know, it is such a waiting game,
• 39:44
  right? You're waiting for your cycle,
• 39:46
  You're waiting for all the these things to kind of perfectly
• 39:49
  happen all at once to create this miracle.
• 39:53
  And being patient can be the hardest thing that you've ever
• 39:58
  done, just waiting for that to happen and you just have to kind
• 40:01
  of sit back. Take a breath and just let it
• 40:04
  happen as it happens because it does.
• 40:06
  Eventually, you know, you get to that day when it does occur.
• 40:10
  But my gosh, I can't even imagine what the waiting was
• 40:12
  like for my family members especially, who have been
• 40:15
  waiting years for, you know, an outcome.
• 40:19
  Just an outcome. It is a miracle.
• 40:22
  I remember hearing that as a kid.
• 40:23
  And you're like, what? What?
• 40:24
  Like what do you mean you just have sex and the baby comes
• 40:26
  like. So cheesy a miracle.
• 40:28
  What do you mean? Yeah, but then you go through
• 40:31
  yourself and then you you have a baby or you see you hear stories
• 40:34
  and you see others close to you who are trying.
• 40:38
  It's like it is a freaking mirror this like it has to be
• 40:41
  the stars. Every star has to align
• 40:43
  perfectly to bring a baby into the world.
• 40:45
  It's unbelievably. Yes, absolutely.
• 40:48
  So how did you? So then you go through, I guess
• 40:51
  probably a lot of people understand there's like, you
• 40:53
  know, they've created embryos and viable ones and all of that
• 40:57
  and it's, you know, somewhere stored and we all picture a
• 40:59
  Petri dish, but I don't actually know where they're living
• 41:02
  little. There was a Petri.
• 41:04
  Dish. It was a Petri.
• 41:06
  Dish there was, Yep. Could you see it?
• 41:09
  Yeah, well, under microscopic, but it's really cool because you
• 41:13
  know what the they kind of zoom in on it right in this other
• 41:16
  room where, you know, they have this technician kind of like
• 41:19
  showing you it, right. So you get to see it before they
• 41:22
  actually insert it into your body.
• 41:24
  It's pretty cool. I have pictures.
• 41:26
  I I think it's, I mean science like, wow, it's incredible.
• 41:31
  It's really, really cool. Yeah, absolutely incredible.
• 41:34
  What did you do to prepare your body, your mind, everything for
• 41:39
  the transfer? I cannot even imagine the
• 41:42
  pressure. Yes.
• 41:44
  That you, as such a caring person, would have put on
• 41:46
  yourself to be ready. Yeah.
• 41:49
  So let's just say there are a lot of hormones coursing through
• 41:54
  my body. So anybody who has gone through,
• 41:56
  again, the process of IVF or, you know, trying to collect
• 42:01
  eggs, you know, you are just jabbing yourself in the butt
• 42:04
  with these, you know, injections of hormones, the amount of like
• 42:09
  estrogen as well supplements that you're taking.
• 42:12
  You know, it's again, it's a lead up to this moment, right,
• 42:15
  where you're preparing your body for this and there's so many
• 42:18
  examinations or making sure your uterus is going to be this
• 42:21
  fabulous little place for this thing to grow.
• 42:24
  You know, it's very, very invasive.
• 42:26
  But ultimately, again, you know, you go through all of this kind
• 42:31
  of hormonal treatment in order for your body to kind of receive
• 42:35
  this this thing. And so I don't know if
• 42:38
  necessarily I was all there, you know, like I felt very, I think
• 42:44
  we talked so much as counselors about fight, flight, freeze.
• 42:47
  And I can't even tell you which one of those I was.
• 42:49
  I think I was all three just all at the same time.
• 42:53
  And I don't know if this is a funny story.
• 42:55
  I think it's funny in retrospect, but I was also like,
• 42:59
  really, really, really sick the week before the transfer.
• 43:02
  And I started panicking because the nurse had reached out to me
• 43:05
  and said, well, you know, we can wait until next month.
• 43:08
  And I had heard that already like for a couple months.
• 43:11
  And I'm like, no, I'm doing this.
• 43:13
  Like I'm in denial that I'm sick.
• 43:15
  I'm like, it's just from the hormones, right?
• 43:17
  The hormones make you feel like this.
• 43:18
  She's like, yeah, no, that sounds like the flu.
• 43:23
  Also, funny story again, more in retrospect is the transfer
• 43:27
  occurred 2 days before my birthday.
• 43:29
  And so I was again kind of psyching myself up like, yeah,
• 43:33
  you know, this is going to be like a birthday gift.
• 43:36
  Like this is, you know, this is going to be the coolest birthday
• 43:38
  I've ever had. You know, meanwhile, I'm, I'm
• 43:40
  not feeling ideal, you know, I'm hopped up on the hormones, not
• 43:44
  going to lie, hopped up as well on a little Ativan as well.
• 43:48
  Just trying to make sure my nerves were calm for the
• 43:51
  procedure because you know, there's a lot, there was a lot
• 43:55
  going on in my mind. There is a lot going on in my
• 43:57
  mind, like excitement, absolute excitement, but also just Oh my
• 44:01
  gosh, this is happening. I have been waiting nine months
• 44:05
  for this moment and now it's here and now I have to be a
• 44:09
  normal person. And so you get the transfer.
• 44:13
  I imagine there's like it's a little, I, I've heard it's
• 44:16
  pretty painful and like there's just like stuff to that.
• 44:19
  Yeah. And then you come out of it and
• 44:23
  you start to feel like, what do you are you like the episode of
• 44:26
  Friends where you've got your legs up?
• 44:28
  Are you trying to just like, my body is a temple, like nobody
• 44:31
  touched me? Like what were you like?
• 44:35
  Man, OK, well, again, Full disclosure, you know, my, my
• 44:39
  doctor had prescribed me some lorazepam, you know, which is a
• 44:42
  very popular thing from White Lotus if you watched that.
• 44:45
  But I had taken one of those before the transfer.
• 44:51
  And so I was chill, I was chilling, I was having a nice
• 44:56
  little mental vacation while it all happened.
• 44:59
  I was sharp enough to make sure that of course I knew that the
• 45:03
  names on the embryo plate actually matched the intended
• 45:07
  parents. So, you know, that was a big
• 45:09
  responsibility as well. But you know what, I I just
• 45:12
  remember kind of walking out of there and they had mentioned
• 45:15
  after, Oh, well, you know, like you might experience a little
• 45:19
  bit of this, you might experience a little bit of that.
• 45:21
  But I remember just walking out like a total goof.
• 45:23
  I kind of just like Shim in my way over to my family members
• 45:26
  who are waiting and did a little dance and just kind of like
• 45:29
  pointed to the uterus. It was like, yeah, it's in
• 45:31
  there. And then we went and got fast
• 45:33
  food. So it was a.
• 45:36
  Loving. Kind of nice.
• 45:37
  And I didn't have to drive. It was great.
• 45:39
  I got a ride there. I got a ride back.
• 45:41
  You know, simple pleasures. So nice.
• 45:44
  Yeah. Yeah, I mean nice.
• 45:46
  Yeah, yeah. Nice.
• 45:48
  Relatively speaking, I was feeling good.
• 45:50
  You were feeling good, good, good.
• 45:52
  Yeah. And then 10 day wait is that is
• 45:56
  it kind of like a two week wait, kind of like when you no you
• 46:01
  shave off a couple of days, right, Because normally it's a
• 46:04
  two week wait. Oh my gosh, you know what?
• 46:06
  I can't remember anymore. No, I think I had to wait two
• 46:09
  weeks, like 14 days. And at that point I could go in
• 46:15
  to do some blood work and that they could detect any pregnancy
• 46:18
  hormones. And, you know, again, I was, I
• 46:20
  was being very confident. You know, I'd had successful
• 46:25
  pregnancies and, and pretty good pregnancies.
• 46:27
  I was very fortunate with my own children.
• 46:29
  And just having had that context, I was very, very
• 46:33
  confident. I'm like, you know what this
• 46:34
  thing is implanting. I could, I could just feel my
• 46:37
  uterus talking to me, you know, as silly as that sounds.
• 46:40
  I could just feel it chitchatting.
• 46:42
  And it wasn't always pleasant. Sometimes it was screaming.
• 46:46
  But I was very, very confident. You know, things were at work.
• 46:49
  This little embryo that was in there.
• 46:50
  It was, it was trying really, really, really hard and it was
• 46:55
  working like it was going. So two weeks later, I did go
• 47:00
  into the clinic to get some blood work.
• 47:03
  And then, you know, shortly after that, they're able to
• 47:05
  actually deliver whether or not there are hormone, the pregnancy
• 47:10
  hormone present in your blood or not.
• 47:12
  And then of course, they can determine whether or not the
• 47:14
  embryo is viable or or not viable and, and you'll
• 47:16
  eventually, you know, pass it. Yeah.
• 47:21
  And the and so who? Who received the information?
• 47:25
  Yeah. So again, I guess this is not a
• 47:29
  spoiler, but it did not work, unfortunately.
• 47:32
  You know, it's been almost nine months now since it hasn't
• 47:37
  worked. But they always reach out to the
• 47:40
  intended parents first to provide them with that news.
• 47:44
  And then they had actually called me when I was at work.
• 47:48
  And you know how people sometimes say, oh, you know,
• 47:51
  take the day off, right? Take the day off.
• 47:53
  I'm very much one of those people who has to work to like,
• 47:57
  to distract my mind, to keep my mind off of things, to keep my
• 48:00
  mind busy, to be productive in order to kind of just like move
• 48:04
  forward and again, feel, you know, like it's a normal day
• 48:07
  when it's totally not a normal day.
• 48:10
  But yeah, they, they did call the intended parents first
• 48:13
  shared the news that the embryo transfer had not success, been
• 48:16
  successful, unfortunately. And then, yeah, they had given
• 48:20
  me a call. I was at work again.
• 48:22
  And, you know, let's just say, you know, I stayed at work.
• 48:26
  I'm not sure how I did it, but it was really, really tough
• 48:31
  news. It was really, it was just sad.
• 48:33
  I don't know how else to describe it.
• 48:35
  I was really, really, really sad.
• 48:37
  I cannot. I can't imagine.
• 48:39
  Did you have a friend at work you could confide in or get a
• 48:43
  hug or? You know, I, I did, I was very
• 48:46
  fortunate. So this year in my role as a, as
• 48:49
  a counselor, I took it upon myself to become a supervisor
• 48:53
  for practical student. So that being said, this poor
• 48:56
  practicum student was there in the room with me when I got this
• 49:01
  call. And I'd kind of mentioned to her
• 49:04
  earlier on, like, OK, you know, there might be some changes in
• 49:08
  your practicum schedule as a result of some things that I'm
• 49:11
  going to be going through. And I was a little, you know,
• 49:13
  trying to not be too overt with my plans and, you know, the
• 49:17
  overshare that I usually am. But she happened to be there.
• 49:22
  And I was very, very lucky, you know, another counselor to be
• 49:25
  with me, a shoulder to cry on. And again, I was lucky because
• 49:30
  she was able to take a lot of the the student clients that we
• 49:33
  were seeing that day. So I could kind of just, you
• 49:35
  know, mellow, you know, in in the office by myself for a
• 49:40
  little bit. But yeah, I was really, really
• 49:42
  fortunate to have her there. And, you know, for better, for
• 49:45
  worse, for her sake, you know, I think it might have been a
• 49:49
  little bit much as well, but I was very lucky that she was
• 49:52
  there. I'm so, well, I have to say, I'm
• 49:54
  so sorry to you and to the intended parents that that was
• 49:57
  not successful. I think that's just
• 50:00
  heartbreaking. And like, yeah.
• 50:02
  And I just, you know, I don't understand science enough to
• 50:04
  understand, like, why, you know, you bought this beautiful,
• 50:07
  perfect little ever. You have like a body who's
• 50:09
  carried before. Like, it should, it should have,
• 50:11
  you know, I know it's like life is unfair, but like, it should
• 50:15
  have worked. Like, we were all.
• 50:17
  You quietly kind of told me what was happening.
• 50:20
  And man, it was just like, all my best energy was just going to
• 50:24
  you. And I was like, come on.
• 50:25
  Like, I just was like, it's going to happen.
• 50:27
  Like it's going to happen. And it's just so.
• 50:29
  I can only imagine how surreal was for you to be like how the
• 50:33
  heck could this not work? Yeah, You know, I think again,
• 50:38
  you've described it so well, like I was feeling so confident
• 50:43
  and to be honest, you know, I I was, I was really just hyping
• 50:47
  myself up the whole time. You know, I was so ready, like,
• 50:51
  after nine months of go again, jumping through these hoops in
• 50:55
  order to finally get to that day.
• 50:57
  And then again, the kind of comedy of errors and like, you
• 51:01
  know, being really sick and, you know, being a couple days before
• 51:05
  my birthday, like all of those things kind of combined to the
• 51:09
  point where it's like, yeah, this is just how it's supposed
• 51:11
  to be, right? This is just all part of the
• 51:13
  plan. But yeah, it was, it was very
• 51:15
  sad. And I think that, you know, I've
• 51:18
  always heard again in my counseling work, you know, you
• 51:20
  shouldn't should on yourself. And I'm trying to really hold on
• 51:25
  to that because, you know, in in my mind, I, I felt the same.
• 51:28
  I was like, well, this should have happened, you know, like
• 51:30
  I've done this before. You know, I knew it wasn't my
• 51:33
  fault. I knew it wasn't anybody's
• 51:35
  fault. Like you, There's nobody to
• 51:36
  blame. But yeah, it's just all of that
• 51:42
  work and all of that, all of that building and preparation
• 51:48
  and it could, it just, it just ended, right?
• 51:52
  Like it was so, so sudden. And again, it gave me a lot of,
• 51:56
  you know, empathy for those who, again, are in this situation and
• 52:01
  have had to go through that disappointment, just that sheer
• 52:05
  disappointment of, you know, their hopefulness kind of fading
• 52:09
  or just kind of suddenly ending someday.
• 52:13
  And that was I guess part of the legal process or part of the
• 52:18
  journey to work all the details out.
• 52:21
  It was understood that this would be a one time A11 try
• 52:26
  situation. Is that correct?
• 52:28
  Yeah. And it actually was very easy to
• 52:30
  make it that because there was only one embryo.
• 52:33
  And I think again, that was part of the, you know, the not there
• 52:36
  wasn't pressure. I'm not going to say that it was
• 52:38
  pressure, but just inherently, Yeah, the the desire, right.
• 52:43
  Like that just absolute like drive to make it want to, to
• 52:46
  work right. Like it was just everybody.
• 52:50
  We nobody wanted a different outcome, but we all knew that
• 52:53
  there was the reality that that that could happen.
• 52:58
  It was just, again, you know, you look at it in so many
• 53:01
  different ways and, and part of me was almost grateful that it
• 53:06
  had happened so quickly instead of, you know, growing it
• 53:11
  continuously and then losing it later, right?
• 53:15
  You know, again, like there's heartbreak in so many different
• 53:18
  ways. And again, I'm not sure if it
• 53:21
  was a good thing that it suddenly happened or not.
• 53:24
  I mean, it just is what it is, um.
• 53:27
  Kudos to you for yeah, for for to all of you for for doing it
• 53:31
  and say subjecting yourself to like it's like 1/1 option could
• 53:38
  have been to not do it to protect your heart and to
• 53:40
  protect their heart for them to protect their own.
• 53:43
  You know, like everyone kind of could have actually protected
• 53:45
  themselves. I mean, the outcome would have
• 53:47
  been absolutely no baby in the end, because if you don't even
• 53:50
  try, right? But then to like go to, for
• 53:55
  everybody to go through they given its family and like
• 53:57
  everyone was so invested and of course involved and like ready
• 54:01
  for this. Like that's a huge, it's almost
• 54:03
  like a, a bigger, a huge type of risk in that.
• 54:07
  And so I like, I just want to give you kudos and your family
• 54:09
  kudos for like going through that and being like, we have
• 54:12
  this shot and we're going to take it and we're going to open
• 54:15
  our hearts up to like potentially being to your point,
• 54:18
  like at any point, God, it's such a miracle.
• 54:20
  Like there's disappointment that can happen and I'm just mad for
• 54:27
  I'm allowed to say that, you know you're.
• 54:29
  Not to say that and you know. What I feel mad for, I feel mad
• 54:33
  too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:35
  And you know what? Again, like we're coming to that
• 54:38
  point now where again might due date would have been, you know
• 54:44
  another six weeks from now, right.
• 54:46
  And so we're kind of hitting that that milestone.
• 54:49
  And again, more to your point, it's like it was so much more
• 54:55
  worth taking that risk because it could have worked, right?
• 55:01
  Like, like there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have
• 55:05
  done that. And it was worth it in every
• 55:07
  way. And you know what?
• 55:08
  I think that it's again, you know, I, I remember messaging my
• 55:12
  family member after and just saying, you know, despite it not
• 55:16
  working out, I felt in that short time such an incredible
• 55:23
  little connection. You know, I was so acutely aware
• 55:26
  that it was in my body. I was so aware that like, you
• 55:32
  know, my body was changing even in that time.
• 55:34
  I could feel it again, my like my uterus and this little thing
• 55:38
  they were, they were talking to me.
• 55:40
  I was again going through like very intense visualizations of
• 55:44
  what was happening and how it was growing and going to
• 55:46
  develop. And I just remember messaging
• 55:50
  them and saying like, you know, you know, even if it's here or
• 55:54
  not. And, you know, we know it's not
• 55:55
  going to be here. Like it's always like it's going
• 55:58
  to be part of the fabric of our, our family and our, our, our
• 56:01
  lives forever. You know, I felt so incredibly
• 56:04
  connected already. So I can't even imagine what it
• 56:06
  would have been like later, but it was so beautiful, you know,
• 56:11
  like it was one of those things where I wouldn't have had it any
• 56:15
  other way. Oh, stuff, you're so wonderful.
• 56:19
  What a gift you gave and gave the intended parents.
• 56:25
  We're trying to like protect anonymity here and I just I
• 56:30
  think that's just the opportunity is just such a gift
• 56:34
  that you gave. And what would you say to
• 56:37
  anybody who might be considering doing this for somebody that
• 56:40
  they, you know, someone that they know?
• 56:41
  I let's not talk from the the donor perspective.
• 56:45
  That's a whole other, you know, ball game.
• 56:47
  But for sure it was like, wow, I've been like thinking about
• 56:49
  maybe doing this, offering this to somebody.
• 56:51
  What would you say? Yeah.
• 56:53
  So, yeah, for anyone who is interested or has had that
• 56:58
  thought about becoming a gestational carrier carrier, you
• 57:03
  know, again, our outcomes are so varied and we're not going to
• 57:07
  know exactly what's going to happen or how it's going to
• 57:10
  affect our body. But I think that what's really
• 57:13
  important to remember is that no matter what happens along that
• 57:17
  journey, it is it's really a privilege.
• 57:20
  It's the, you know, the one of the biggest privileges you could
• 57:23
  have. You get to really, you just get
• 57:30
  to come up with this like beautiful gift for people and
• 57:33
  contribute to their hope. And I would highly encourage it.
• 57:38
  You know, it is a lot of work. It is, you know, it feels like,
• 57:42
  again, you know, there's all these hoops to kind of jump, and
• 57:47
  it's not necessarily pleasant to go through all of them, but at
• 57:50
  the end of the day, it is so remarkably worth it.
• 57:54
  There's no other way to put it. It's incredible.
• 57:56
  It's so cool. And it's.
• 57:59
  Yeah. And you just get this
• 58:01
  connection, right that you you wouldn't ordinarily get with
• 58:04
  anybody else. It's so unique.
• 58:06
  It is so incredibly unique and there's something so beautiful
• 58:10
  about the way that it is done in Canada.
• 58:12
  It sounds like where it's it is a really beautiful intentional
• 58:16
  thing. I mean, I think there's
• 58:18
  probably, I, I could talk out of both sides of my mouth on many
• 58:21
  topics, and this is probably one of them where, yeah, that could
• 58:24
  be a whole other discussion of like, you know, should they,
• 58:27
  should people be compensated and be allowed to be compensated for
• 58:29
  this? And I, I don't know enough about
• 58:31
  the topic, but there's, yeah, I bet there's very good arguments
• 58:36
  in both cats. But regardless, what we're
• 58:38
  talking about is like giving that as a gift.
• 58:41
  And I think that's so incredibly beautiful.
• 58:43
  And I love how you said just give, give somebody hope, gives
• 58:46
  them an extra fighting chance where like, science can go so
• 58:49
  far. And this is one of the ways that
• 58:51
  science can take that Petri dish and make a baby in someone
• 58:57
  else's ears. How cool is that?
• 58:59
  Thank you so much for coming on, for sharing your story, sharing
• 59:03
  your family story, and this is so inspiring.
• 59:07
  If anybody wants to reach out, I know you said you were willing
• 59:10
  to message people on LinkedIn, so I will put that information
• 59:14
  in the show notes. Thank you.
• 59:15
  That's very generous of you because it's a yeah.
• 59:18
  How many people know somebody who's gone through a journey
• 59:21
  like this? So I really appreciate you
• 59:23
  saying that because if there happens to be someone out there
• 59:26
  who has got questions and has nobody to turn to, to ask these
• 59:30
  questions, I think that's that's a huge gift that you are willing
• 59:33
  to, you know, Share your story in a maybe more private setting.
• 59:37
  Yes. And I'd, I'd love to help.
• 59:38
  I'd love to support well. Well, thank you Stef.
• 59:41
  You're amazing and I hope you have a great.
• 59:43
  Day, thank you. Thank you so much for listening
• 59:48
  and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
• 59:51
  fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
• 59:55
  And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
• 59:58
  Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
• 1:00:00
  and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.