Latest / Divorce Coaches Academy / Working With Clients Beyond Divorce with Connie Crowe Haralson author of Wired to Glow
Transcript
- Tracy Callahan: Thank you for listening to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. For more insights and training, visit divorcecoachesacademy.com. Welcome to Divorce Coaches Academy podcast, where we explore the role of divorce coaching in conflict resolution, decision making, and navigating divorce with clarity and intention. Debra Doak: welcome or welcome back to the Divorce Coaches Academy podcast. This episode is going to be the final installment in our three-part series where I talk with real coaching clients and they can share with you actually about their experience of working with me. Right? So, whether you're a divorce professional or an individual in the middle of a breakup or divorce, my hope is that these stories are going to offer some. insight as to the value a certified ADR divorce coach can add to your process no matter what you're going through. So today I notice I have a guest here and I'm joined by Connie Crow. Connie is a licensed professional counselor, a behavioral health executive. Yes she is. She's a speaker and she's the author of the recent book Wired to Glow The New Psychology of Super Traits. So Connie draws from both professional expertise and personal experience. And she speaks on trauma, resilience, women's empowerment, and why our greatest strength can sometimes make us vulnerable to unhealthy relationship dynamics. Connie's passionate, she tells me, about helping women recognize their worth, trust their intuition, and reclaim their power. Connie, welcome to the DCA podcast. Connie: Amazing. Thank you so much for having me and hello everyone. Debra Doak: Yeah, so glad you're here. ⁓ I I want to start off with your book. So in Wired to Glow, you take readers essentially inside the disorienting and devastating reality of being in relationship with a we all hear the word narcissist, but you're more specifically talking about that a dark tetrad personality, someone who's charming and manipulative, but quietly dangerous. So what is it about somebody with these traits that makes breaking up with them or divorcing them so difficult and often traumatic? Connie: Yeah, thanks so much for that question, Deborah. so first I have to say, you know, the breakup with a dark tetrad is really like n ⁓ no other type of breakup. there's so much manipulation that goes into ⁓ their thought process ⁓ in the breakup ⁓ that I often personally and I know others felt blindsided. ⁓ they almost feel like one step ahead in some ways. ⁓ they're very calculating, which I think is ⁓ something I didn't expect ⁓ in the breakup. And ⁓ I was hoping it it would be amicable, and I was putting, you know, rational thought and rational decision making to the process, but realizing you're you're dealing with someone that is not rational. I mean, they truly are beating to their own drum. And so for me, that was a real eye-opener. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm. Connie: Of I had to really get strategic. and one of the reasons why I came to you was to really get my thoughts ⁓ together and really have some clarity and step-by-step approach on how I was going to navigate the breakup, not just from an emotional perspective, but all the logistics. And ⁓ that was certainly something, Deborah, that you helped me with ⁓ was putting one foot in you know in front of the other. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: ⁓ to make certain that I was thinking about everything ⁓ appropriately, all the way from safety, finances, you know, physical health, ⁓ all the way to my environment. Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a really unique situation in that, you know, I I am my title is divorce coach, but you actually weren't getting a divorce. This was a a breakup from a longer term partner. And so I mean all the same elements are there essentially. So I I want you to, if we could rewind back to when you think about the very early stages of that breakup. What stands out to you about what that time felt like for you? Connie: That's right. Sure. Well, I was devastated. The betrayal trauma was so new and visceral to me. And ⁓ you know, I was married before and but it was an amicable divorce. We were on the same page, we we didn't have children. ⁓ but this long-term relationship ⁓ that I was ⁓ you know, breaking up from was so different. Debra Doak: Mm. Connie: We had assets together, we lived together, we had families, we had businesses together. And ⁓ it was probably more like a a a breakup than my ⁓ than my married life ⁓ breakup. And so, you know, I you use the analogy once, Deborah, early on that really resonated with me. You know, my whole world blew up, my whole kitchen, so to speak, and my house blew up. Whereas Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah. Connie: He was just replacing a microwave. It was really a blip in his life, but my whole life was crumbling. And one of the things that I really struggled with early on was finding the psychological safety, feeling like I was physically safe to be able to process what was happening and and also the ability to know what were the steps I needed to take. You know, what was, you know, what was that first thing? Debra Doak: Mm. Mm-hmm. Connie: which was finances. ⁓ even navigating the legal system was very new to me. No contact was new to me. Although I'm a licensed clinician, they don't teach you ⁓ you know, about divorce. They don't teach you, you know, you know, what you need for psychological safety ⁓ when a breakup occurs. And so that was, you know, early on, some of the things that I was experiencing and some of the things that you helped me with. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I want to point out that I I am consistently surprised and honored that a number of my clients are mental health professionals. And the fact that we can do something professionally does not mean that we are prepared without support to do it personally. It hits different. You have that clinical distance when you're helping a client. When it happens to you, like Connie: Right. Debra Doak: the fact that you even are the you're already skilled in doing that, you still needed some support to pull that into your own life. Connie: Hund hundred percent. ⁓ in fact, the first week after everything kind of went down, right? ⁓ the cheating, the betrayal, the deceit, and I got to a place of physical safety. So I actually left the home that we we shared. I reached out to my EAP, 'cause I've been a behavioral health executive, so most know about an employee assistance program. I reached out to a therapist and she just didn't. Debra Doak: Yeah. Connie: Get it. ⁓ and again, not her fault. She tried to be supportive, but we're she wasn't trained in this. She wasn't trained in narcissistic abuse, ⁓ the gaslighting, what was truly happening. And I Googled you. I actually Googled betrayal trauma ⁓ in and coaching. ⁓ I've experienced coaching before, and you popped up. And it Debra Doak: Mm. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Connie: And what I learned from you is so different. The tools are so different than traditional behavioral health, you know, talk therapy. Some of the things I learned from you were the resources, names like Sandra L. Brown, ⁓ Patricia Evans. I don't think I realized the extent that I was being verbally abused until I read Patricia Evans. And then things started falling into place. And so you really helped me not only verbalize. what was happening, but you gave me so many incredible resources that I've never even seen or experienced, even as a licensed clinician. Debra Doak: that amazing so yeah so you reached out for the traditional therapeutic support and quickly discovered that two things number one the legal and financial logistics of a breakup that's not the right person and then they didn't get it they did not understand this what betrayal trauma is and what it does and what you really were experiencing if you didn't quite understand it yet at that point either. Connie: Right. That's right. I would say I've never ⁓ had to navigate legalities or of a divorce or dividing assets. Again, my my real divorce was very amicable. We signed, we signed, we divided, it was no problem, right? This was very different. He was not playing fair. And I I I remember just asking you, like, what is this? What do I do? How do I navigate this? And you were very clear financially what to do. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: ⁓ the resources to educate me on the financial piece, the legal piece, things you would experience in a true, you know, divorce. And also, Deborah, I want to say that one thing that really struck with me is the anger. I had so much anger that I had to wade through. and you really helped me process that, even from a, you know, money perspective. Because in my eyes, I I was losing a lot. Debra Doak: Mm. Connie: And y I think you you you helped me realize through this process that you can't buy peace, right? Or or or that you can't you can buy peace, but you gotta be okay with letting go of certain things in order to to really ⁓ have that peaceful existence. And so that was really important in my healing journey. Debra Doak: Mm. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, processing all of that with you and understanding right from a financial standpoint, what are your priorities, what are your goals, what's your desired outcome, helping you identify, like I want to clarify, I would never tell you what to do, but what I'm helping you clarify is where you're trying to go and what are the next right steps, what feels right for you, right? Yeah, and then all that anger, of course, right? Connie: Yes. Mm-hmm. Debra Doak: You're gonna lose resources on this and you are going to have to make strategic intentional decisions about what that price of peace is, what that price tag is for you. And we spend a lot of time walking through that because Connie: We did. We we did. We did. And another thing you you helped as well. I remember the exercise we did in values. And that was extremely helpful. I've never seen that exercise done before. And it helped me prioritize, like you said, you walked me through the prioritization of what do you value? you know, throughout this this breakup. So it was, you know, is it is it financial, is it safety? Is it you what all these different things? Debra Doak: Yeah, you had some big decisions to make. Mm. Connie: That was so eye-opening to me in the several years we've worked together. I still carry that through everything that I do. ⁓ and I think you've asked me once, like, you know, how do you make decisions now? What's different? That is one of the the differentiators for me. Is now I make decisions based on, okay, does this hurt, is this hurtful to me, is this helpful to me? Do I value this? And that was ⁓ incredibly enlightening to me. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah, it's a really powerful filter to run things through. When you can't decide is does this support who I'm trying to be in the world? Or does it not? Especially when you have competing interests, like this does support my values, this doesn't. Okay. That helps you make a choice between those two courses of action. Connie: That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Debra Doak: Yeah, I I love that values exercise. I do think it's really, really helpful. ⁓ so you know, we've talked about like what what made you realize you needed a different kind of support as you were going through this process. ⁓ and you were already familiar with coaching, but probably not, I'm using quotes here, divorce coaching, because that's primarily what my title is. Connie: That's correct. Mm-hmm. Debra Doak: Right. We could also call it breakup or transition coaching or whatever, but that area was of support was new to you, right? Okay. Connie: Very new. Very new. In fact, I I think I even Googled I I remember Googling betrayal trauma, breakup, you know, divorce, separation or domestic separation. And I think you came up in that. That's right. It's it's completely different to even what we learn from a therapeutic perspective. You know, therapeutic perspective, we call it ⁓ life transitions and you may ⁓ Debra Doak: Mm. Connie: even read like Williams Bridges, which is great for life transitions. There's a beginning, there's an end. And this was so much more complicated. And d it finding you helped me through that to have the resources to be able to understand my values and move forward. again, I never have experienced this type of transition. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And just like any divorce or breakup when we are sharing assets and having to make it's all about decision making, right? And that's actually the tagline I use for my private practice is help for hard decisions because it's all decision making. Do I move out? Where do I go? What do I agree to? What do I want to propose? Do I want to sell this? Do I want to split this? Do I want to keep this? Do I want to answer his text? It's like Connie: That's right. What's that Debra Doak: Just decision after decision after decision. Connie: y a hundred percent. I think decision feet ⁓ decision fatigue for for me and having someone to bounce that off of and pro and con it with me ⁓ was incredibly value. I remember early on, Deborah, I think the first year we worked together was really about the s safety and decision making. ⁓ because it took me that long to kind of untangle some of those assets and I I thought, ⁓ I can do this on my own. This is this is interesting. I was like, ⁓ I could do this on my own. I've been through a breakup before. But then the legal stuff ⁓ was really difficult for me to navigate. And you were incredibly instrumental in helping me with that. And what does that look like? And assets. And ⁓ you know, again, super trait here. I have high agreeableness, high conscientious conscientiousness. And I was trying to be what I thought was amicable and fair. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: And but I was short I was short changing myself, quite honestly. And you helped me think about priorities. ⁓ what's best for for my life and going forward. So I just so appreciate that piece. Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah. And then we've continued to work together, right? And that that's what, you know, I tell our students when we're training coaches is it's really not unusual for people to stick with you because you've been on a real recovery journey, but before we hit record, we were we talk about the difference between old Connie and new Connie. And new Connie approaches decision making, relationships, life very differently than Connie: Yes. Yes. Debra Doak: old Connie did. And it's really nice to have somebody that's been with you through all that. They can say, huh, is that old Connie or new Connie telling me that? Connie: Mm-hmm. I I yes, I think we've been working together almost four years now. And it's been such a transformation. I think the values exercise, another area of transformation for me, Deborah, that you've really helped and ⁓ trusting myself. And for me to be able to come to you and say, I'm reading this situation. I need your feedback. Is this am I on track here? ⁓ and it was a real safe place for me to test out new things as well, even from hobbies. So you when you and I first started working together, I started trying new hobbies and sharing that experience with you, meeting new people, ⁓ sharing even red flags with you was a big thing. Like, is this a red flag? Is this not? ⁓ and so you really helped me in a safe space to be that sounding board, to trust myself again. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Connie: ⁓ and also to listen to my body. That was a huge one. you would all, you know, where do you feel it in your body? Are you listening to your body? Are you, you know, because the body knows first, sometimes before we know cognitively. So it really has a been tr a a huge transformation. And one thing I want to share with with your listeners, another analogy that has really framed my life. ⁓ you always said, you know what, if there's a screen door, I have some holes in it. Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: Right. And so working with you has helped me repair those holes. So I'm still the vibrant person I am. I still have these super traits, but I'm just being more conscious and cognitive about what I let into my screen. And and that has been incredibly helpful that I carry through new relationships and friendships and even, you know, workplace relationships. Debra Doak: Mm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. and we can edit this out if you don't want me to share it. But I feel like another thing that's been for somebody that has agreeableness, we often have a hard time asking for what we need. And I'm thinking particularly about a date you went on, and you dress, you spend a lot of time getting ready and Connie: Yes. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Debra Doak: Then you just went out and he didn't say anything. And you were like, ⁓ that's a red flag. And I and what we worked through was, what if you ask for what you needed? And then you could see how he responded. And so I thought that was also like really important for those of us that are I I'm not going to call it codependent, but agreeable, that are ⁓ tend to try to be easy to get along with, is that we don't say, you know what? I spent a really long time getting ready and it's important to me that you say you look fine. Connie: That's right. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yes. Debra Doak: And then the red flag is if he comes back and says, he blows it off. But you give him a chance to meet your need. Connie: Hmm. Yes. And I have put that into practice. ⁓ I think I mentioned to you I, you know, started dating a little bit here and there. And ⁓ I I ex I do I expect a certain level of engagement and the person that I was going on a few dates with wasn't showing that. And I I did. I stood up for myself and said, Hey, I would you know, in a playful way, but like, hey, would really love some good morning texts, would really love some like early morning, you know, engagement from you. And he immediately was like, ⁓ my gosh, yeah, like wow. I Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: Ps perfect. Yeah. And he did, right? And he continued that level of engagement. And so I think you're right. It's helped me discern there's always a difference between ⁓ you know, a person that won't or can't, ⁓ or maybe just doesn't know. And so it was important for me not just to rule people out immediately, to ask what I want, to show up, ⁓ but also to build those healthy boundaries. And you really taught me like, what does that look like in practice? Debra Doak: Yeah, yeah, because we walk through the real life scenarios and you know, again, I'm not telling you what to do. You've been very clear about your values and what you're looking for. And I am just working and reflecting with you. Are you seeing what you're looking for? Have you asked for what you're looking for yet to see if it's available? And and we've done all that. ⁓ I do want to be able to spend some time on the book because I think it is such a valuable resource. ⁓ Connie: Mm-hmm. Debra Doak: You don't often get to hear from somebody who's a mental health professional themselves, who works in behavioral health, who can give you this inside view. So, I'll let you share whatever you like, but I I think what I'd like to ask is what do you want our listeners to know about the book and how it can navigate, like they can navigate their own recovery because that's what you've done is you have done a full recovery from this experience. Connie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you, Deborah. And I and I have to give you credit, right? Because again, I ⁓ I have been over the years in these destructive or narcissistic ⁓ patterns of relationships. And and ⁓ even my old therapist, I said, I don't know what is going on. I feel like the healthier I'm getting, the more therapy. I am still in these relationships. And Debra Doak: So how does this book gonna help them? Connie: She her comment to me was, and she was a brilliant therapist, but she wasn't really trained in this area. She said, I don't know, you're a magnet. I don't know why. We gotta figure this out. And then I started seeing you, Deborah, after the relationship. And that's when you turned me on to Sandra L. Brown and the Super Traits. And there has been some new research that women that are capable, smart, ⁓ affable, approachable, really strong women. Debra Doak: Mm. Connie: fall victim to these relationships. You think of predator and prey. And they don't teach this in school. I didn't know what love bombing was. ⁓ I didn't know what future faking was. All the things that were happening happening to me in this relationship, ⁓ after the relationship, I felt stupid. I felt like, ⁓ my gosh, why didn't I know these things? And I think a lot of women feel shame after these relationships and thinking, why didn't I see those red flags? And ⁓ Debra Doak: Yes. Connie: So the book really humanizes that. Not only does it talk about the super trait, so agreeableness, high agreeableness, high conscientiousness, but it also normalizes it. You know, ⁓ the dark tetrad, they're very calculated. I mean, they spend their their life really learning ⁓ emotion, although they are low conscious, low empathy people and sometimes no no empathy. ⁓ Debra Doak: Mm-hmm. Connie: I'm high empathy, so I want to see the best in people. And I think ⁓ most most people, most women that I that I talk to that have these super traits are highly highly agreeable in these relationships, ⁓ want to see the best. And so there's a few things I want people to know with the super traits. Number one, you're not defective. ⁓ these people are highly skilled, and the more you start to see the red flags and trust yourself, ⁓ Debra Doak: Uh-huh. Connie: That's what part of the book is about, trusting yourself again, listening to your intuition. And then also gives you some nice layman terms, clinical terms that you can put words to what you're feeling. And also ⁓ to really just start believing in yourself and also the power of healing. You know, it's taken me a bit, but I have been gentle with myself in this healing process. And I can say it's been transformative. Debra Doak: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, and I think Just to expound on that a little bit is we want to be conscientious. We want to be agreeable. We are not suggesting that those are negative traits in any way. I love that about myself and about you. What I'm no longer willing to do, and you're no longer willing to do, and what we hope is that I am no longer being I am no longer willing to be agreeable at my own expense. And that's the differentiator, right? There's no self-abandonment anymore. I'm still very agreeable. Connie: Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. Debra Doak: as long as my standard for treatment is being met, I'm still very agreeable. ⁓ yeah. So, you know, I although yours was a little bit more unusual situation and that it wasn't a divorce and we weren't working on a parenting plan, I think one of the messages I want to focus on here for the folks listening is because my training and my expertise is in decision making, conflict management, Connie: I don't know That's right. Debra Doak: And just helping people stay aligned with where they're trying to go, that background and coaching was able to support you through what you were going through, even though we weren't writing a parenting plan and you weren't doing a custody trial. It's the same set of skills that helped you. Connie: Hundred percent agree. ⁓ in fact, again, I'm a therapist. I've been to talk therapy before. I love my old therapist. She was amazing, but this is not her area of expertise. ⁓ and I needed someone to help me with that decision-making process. And ⁓ you did that for me. And I had to make a you know, I may not have a parenting plan, but we had shared dogs and we had Debra Doak: You did? Connie: Joint c yeah custody of the dogs and you know and it I know it may seem trivial to others, but those are loved ones. And we had lots of properties and things I had to make some decisions on. And and you helped me with with that process and also feeling empowered to ask what was rightfully mine and what I f I valued and what I wanted to get out of out of this process, right? And this entanglement. Debra Doak: Yes. You did. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Being the being the CEO of your own process, right? Connie: ⁓ and I I also want to share the being the CEO, right, of my life. And ⁓ you you really empowered me ⁓ for that. And again, one thing I want to say that I think is really ⁓ that I found most one of the things I found most valuable was really around feeling psychological safe with you. ⁓ your expertise came through, but still a lot I had all the autonomy. Debra Doak: Mm. Connie: Right. and so I was able to navigate it with with your expert guidance, but I was making the moves and that actually made me feel like, okay, like I can do this. I'm I'm real I'm moving through this process. ⁓ and so I just really appreciate that. Debra Doak: Yes. Awesome. I love hearing that, right? My job is not to take away your agency. My job is to is to empower you to believe in your own agency and autonomy. And so that's really awesome to hear that you felt that. Right. ⁓ For those of you listening, if this conversation is resonating with you and you're curious about what it might look like to have this kind of support in your own. breakup divorce, custody, recovery situation. I would encourage you to go to divorcecoachesacademy.com, go to the coach locator. You can find somebody who specializes in whatever you're dealing with or who's in your local area or whose vibe you like. It's a simple way to connect with somebody that can get you the support you need so you can move forward with whatever you're dealing with with a little more clarity and less overwhelm because it is a period of time that's really overwhelming, right? Connie: ⁓ yes. Yes. Debra Doak: Yeah. It is it's a lot all at one time. So ⁓ I could talk to you all day. I mean I have talked to you for concrete we've talked we've been working together for a long time and I so appreciate you coming here today and talking about your book, which is a really vulnerable look at what you've been through. And so thank you for sharing that with the world because that's not easy. ⁓ so I wanna give you a chance to let listeners know where they can connect with you. Connie: Same, save. Debra Doak: Where they can find out more about this book Wired to Glow. Connie: Well, I appreciate that. And, you know, thank you for the plug here. And ⁓ you can go to Amazon. So it's on Amazon or I'm on Instagram at hashtag wired to glow. So I just wanna appreciate you just you so much to you, Deborah. I mean, you have really walked this journey with me and I just couldn't think of a better co pilot with me. And ⁓ I just appreciate all that you do. ⁓ especially for devo ⁓ divorce coaches academy. ⁓ just couldn't thank you enough. So I appreciate you. Debra Doak: You're welcome. Okay. That's awesome. And guys, we'll be sure to put those ⁓ links to the book and her social media in the show notes so you can catch them there. And ⁓ we just I appreciate everybody tuning in today. ⁓ if you liked today's episode, would you do me a favor and like subscribe or leave a review? That's what really helps others find us. And that's important for us to continue to spread the this new idea about how the ADR divorce coaching really can help clients. with get through their process a lot more quickly. We'll be back next week with another topic to help professional divorce coaches grow their business, their expertise, and their client impact. So Connie, thanks again for joining. Bye. Connie: Thank you. Bye bye.