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The Grief of an Unlived Life: Family Estrangement & Conditional Love  2|11 · The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity

• Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Lost Podcast. I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra, LMHC: And I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: As licensed mental health counselors, we are here to unpack the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with a funeral. Cassandra, LMHC: Because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Join us as we name these hidden losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Daiana, LMHC: Let's dive in. Cassandra, LMHC: Well all right then. we talk about quiet losses on this show, and today we're talking about the profound, complicated grief of an unlived life and mourning a prescribed identity while surviving the idea of conditional love. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Next week we have an incredible moving interview with NLP coach Audra Phelps about her journey about leaving her high-demand religion. Her story is so powerful. We wanted to spend today's episode exploring the framework of her grief. And please, before we begin today, take a moment to subscribe or follow us. It means the world to us. Cassandra, LMHC: And you were 100% correct, Daiana that was one of the most now I don't want to say most powerful interviews that that we've done, but there was just so much feeling behind it. Like we've done so many amazing interviews, and each one hits me in such Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a special place. And I always talk about like, you hit me in the feelings. She hit me in the feelings. Like I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I had more than one moment of emotion, especially when she was like, talking about motherhood and things of that nature. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: But one of the most powerful messages was the idea, like we mentioned just a second ago, the grief of the unlived life and prescribed identities, which I feel Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: like a lot of people could really relate to that. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I think I mentioned to her at what some point, I don't know if we were recording or not, but how her story is so unique and so captivating. I don't know if you used the word captivating today, but it's so captivating. Like she had me like just in her story, And it was so specific. I I think I was a bit surprised by that how specific it is and then how we were still able to see ourselves because there are these like universal concepts. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: One of the again. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: no, I was just thinking about how she discussed a lot about the realization that she had, and I don't want to give away too many spoilers because that's not what this episode's about, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that a lot of her choices, her marriage, her career, how she parented her children were made by these external pressures and not her internal desires. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And that had to be a pretty rude awakening when like when all of that started to come to light and the realization was there. I've definitely made me it definitely made me think a lot about why I've done some of the things I've done and why I've stayed in some of the situations I've stayed in. And a lot of times Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it does come from like these external pressures or ideas of, well if you do this then this'll happen. If you if you work hard and you go to school and you make good grades, then you'll get this job and then you'll get the white picket fence and then you'll get the two point five kids. I'm not sure where the point five ever came from, but apparently that's something people want and the dog and all of the things. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: But what if that's not what you really want? Daiana, LMHC: I think that it's set up that way, right? When we're Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: little, when we're learning how to walk, we we're looking at the adults around us. When we're little, we're looking at our older cousins or people who are doing things that we eventually want to do and things that we admire. And then in our young adulthood, we're still doing the same thing. We're looking around. To see what other people are doing, what other people are telling us. We're looking at people who seem happy. If we're struggling financially in the home, we're looking at people who make money and we think that, my God, they look so happy. And yeah, I think that's something that we get caught up on is maybe the idea that we're not supposed to be sad about these things because it's only natural that we are. making decisions by what we think is right and what we see. And depending Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: on where you came from, sometimes you have good examples, sometimes you don't have any examples. So when something that that comes up in the episode is mourning the missing years, once you have that realization of okay, well actually also the sentiment too of we say this all the time you know I wish I knew then what I know now. It's like, of course we would, but it wouldn't, it doesn't, that's not how it happens. It's not like we are born 40. We're born babies that know absolutely nothing and we're learning. But it's only natural to mourn what we thought we could have done throughout those years, what we now can see. I could have done this completely different. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. The the idea of if I knew then what I know now, though I'm gonna be 100% Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: honest with you, has always driven me nuts. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And it like that idea, it because it it's filled with so much like regret and expectation and all these different things that will keep you stuck in in that stage of what ifs and if only's. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: The first time someone ever said to me, You don't know what you don't know. it struck me like a ton of bricks because I had that if I knew then would I know now sort of idea, but Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you don't know what you don't know. And that allows for some grace and some forgiveness of yourself and for others because we're all just doing what we think that we know is the next right thing. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Despite the fact that we're f living with this this morning. of those missing years. if only I had known these things then, but you don't know what you don't know. And it's only by living and doing and seeing and existing and experiencing do we know these things. I Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: think we had talked to Amy at one point, the last interview that we did, and I had asked her, if someone had shown you a mirror and told you what you were doing and pointed it out to you, do you think it would have changed anything? And I can tell you Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: That for me, it probably wouldn't have. Any of the mistakes I've made, any of the things I've done. I had people there that were trying to give me their life experience. It didn't matter. I knew what I Daiana, LMHC: Mm mm. Cassandra, LMHC: knew and I was gonna do what I was gonna do. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I love that question. And I I don't know about you, but when a when a guest says like, no one's ever asked me that, I was like, Yeah. I was so excited. I was Cassandra, LMHC: I get so excited. Daiana, LMHC: like, Yes. So when you asked her that and it kind of made her think, I was like, Yeah, that's really Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: cool. Yeah. You you really don't. And the thing is that w we've been talking so much about I about identity specifically this season without even really planning it in that specific way. But it's not a surprise because every time you have any type of loss, who you thought you were shifts. And sometimes it's a major change or shift, and sometimes it's a slight one, but you still feel it because you think you know who you are. And it gives us a sense of safety to know that you know who we are is who we are. And if there are changes and it makes us question and and and there is a letting go. Cassandra, LMHC: Absolutely. Absolutely. And then Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: the other thing that we touched a lot about was well, this in our first season we talked about a lot of ambiguous loss and disenfranchised grief and in almost every episode we named Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: what sort of loss it was that was going on. And I I was thinking about that earlier today 'cause I kinda missed doing that a little bit. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: And at the same point in time, it's become so familiar to us that we just kind of take for granted that, yeah, we all understand that this is ambiguous loss. But with the unlived life and the prescribed identities and and mourning the missing years, there comes more ambiguous loss because a lot of times when you make these shifts, when you make these changes, when you do these things, when you leave the the church that you were born into and raised into, it can cause exceptional exceptional. amounts of estrangement. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And with that can come the pain of understanding that the love that you've experienced came with conditions. It's not always the case. Daiana, LMHC: Mm mm. Cassandra, LMHC: Some families can make it through and some friendships can make it through, but there's there's this exploration that needs to happen through about the realization that family ties were at some points based on compliance and not just Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: this unconditional acceptance. Daiana, LMHC: And that could be very confusing when you're living it because what's expected from you is unconditional acceptance, compliance, but it's not given in return. Like you're not unconditionally accepted. And there's a lot of pain there. There's a lot of pain of feeling unworthy or basically thinking that there's something wrong with you or why don't they love me? so there's a lot of a lot of pain there. And when you do lose people because you're becoming more authentic, because you're getting to know yourself, a lot of times if we try to hold on to those relationships. it sets us back and it hurts a lot. I was just thinking that we do get some, I don't want to say backlash, like but just some, we do hit a nerve to some people when they when I post a clip about talking about leaving people behind or Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: about family estrangement. It's a it's a very hard thing because sometimes the person watching it is was the person that feels left behind. Or it was the person that may not understand what happened. And that's what makes it a b ambiguous as well. It's just it's it feels so undone and it feels like there is no clear clarity. But it's Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I and I feel for for everyone who who goes through this, I think we all go through it to s a a certain extent, but I don't take it negatively when we get a negative. response or comment about estrangement. It is a hard thing and we don't talk about it. And some people share, there are some celebrities who share when they make a lot of money, how they really knew who was with them for the money or who was with them because they're a ride or die. It's a part of life. People come into our lives sometimes for a very specific purse purpose and then they're not. Sometimes it's not our choice, but sometimes it has to be. And it's not an easy choice. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: I I believe that in family estrangement, there's no winners. There are no winners because each party is missing out on love and connection. And it's really sad. Cassandra, LMHC: There's no winners, but there are usually a lot of opinions. Daiana, LMHC: There are. There are. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: And a lot of people, like you said, it's it's hard for anybody that's had to experience either side of it, like the one that walks away or the one that's walked away from. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: the people who are on the outside looking in never really understand the why behind it. Sometimes the people that are on the inside looking out don't understand the why behind it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Without speaking out a turn, we both have experienced family estrangement and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: it it is hugely impactful and can be terribly difficult for the people who feel like they're stuck in the middle. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: sometimes I think that that's where the strong reactions come from too is the the not Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: understanding and the not realizing why the choice was made or even who the choice was made for, which version Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: of yourself. Because sometimes we don't even take the time to update what we know about this person. We know a p version of themselves that they they used to be. We don't Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: know who they are any longer. And Daiana, LMHC: Right. Cassandra, LMHC: that can be really challenging and confusing as well. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, absolutely. That's why I love and really appreciate the metaphor that Audra used. And it was an imagery of a balloon and letting go of that string. I think that was the most gentlest explanation of how it felt to let go of this string that she had been fighting to hold on to. And it's she described it. Somewhat like a windstorm, and you're just trying to hold on to it. And how estrangement, even though it's so painful, can eventually lead to immense, immense relief and lightness. So I think that was the most gentle and most beautiful way. I would have never thought to put it in those words. Cassandra, LMHC: I like the idea that it's something that you fight for and fight for and fight for and fight for until suddenly you just can't fight anymore. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I just thought of something too, like with that metaphor. If you're there in a windstorm through all of the the storms and you're holding on, you are standing in place, digging your heels in, trying to make that balloon steady or or keep it, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: So I just thought of this as that you're you're you're stuck. You're not living your life. You're putting all of your energy into holding on to that balloon. So when you let go, you feel lighter, but now you can move. Right, 'cause you're not focusing and and digging your heels into that one thing. Cassandra, LMHC: Well I think you hit that one right on the head. So maybe this is where we should end the episode, I'm saying, 'cause that was just that was very climactic and perfect right there. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. And also something that came to mind, which is what we're gonna talk about next, is really even releasing balloons. A lot of people do that when they commemorate an anniversary of of Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: of a person that's passed away, or releasing lanterns. That's also a maybe a reason people do that as well, because it's it is a letting go. It's something beautiful, it's a beautiful lantern or or a beautiful balloon, and and you're you're letting go in hopes of releasing some Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: of that some of that pain. And when we talk Cassandra, LMHC: It's physical and emotional. Daiana, LMHC: and like you you always say, we talk about quiet griefs in this show, and it's because they're they're quiet. And because they're quiet, we're not doing something with them. We don't have these rituals that we have for when people pass away. so I definitely want to talk today about what it would look like to create our own rituals. Maybe some of these things already exist. Maybe we'll come up with some new ones. But there Cassandra, LMHC: Okay. Daiana, LMHC: is There is, there's actually scientific evidence behind why rituals help us in so many ways. Cassandra, LMHC: There's a there's one that I personally am a huge fan of and I I suggest it to clients and sometimes I use it myself is when I have something that feels Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: unresolved or I have a loss or I have something that doesn't quite make sense to me, I'll write it down and then I'll set it on fire. Like so it could be a letter Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: to somebody, it could be something that's Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: weighing on me, it could be a constant source of anxiety. It could be anything, but it's it's my way to release something that doesn't make sense to me and allow myself Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a moment to grieve the loss of whatever that is. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's really, really good one because it could be a ritual that you do many times, either when the grief comes back or when something else happens or something you want to let go of. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: And what it's doing. And what I was talking about, like the scientific piece, is that when you do something like that, like you write something down and you burn it, it gives you a psychological signal to your brain that and it it it almost so an ambiguous loss there's no ending right but Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: when you are burning that paper it becomes ash and that paper is gone and you're telling your body look there has been a change something happened right and I think you had mentioned like how how you feel inside that that uncomfortableness when you have something that's unfinished. It is or flight and f flight or fight response. It is just that your nervous system is dysregulated and you feel uneasy. And bringing it back to something in the present, something concrete, something that you're doing. Right. When we do when we have rite of passages, when we have a quinceanera or or you know a marriage or Whatever it is, right? We have this event and and it gives us a sign, it gives our body a sign that we're celebrating. Something is starting, or when somebody dies, we are at the funeral and we're at the burial and something is ending and we see it. But when we have things that don't have this type of ritual, it's so important to create it ourselves, to let our brain know, hey, something has changed. Cassandra, LMHC: And it's okay to to earmark those moments. It's okay to have some sort of I hate to use the word ritual again or ritual or or c commemoration of it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: another random side story. I used to sell jewelry, like I did it for like 13 years. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I would see couples at their happiest moments. I would see couples come in and they would pick out rings together, they would buy gifts for each other, they would do all these different things, and then I've seen people at their not so happiest moments where things didn't work out and they're trying to figure out what to do with this piece of jewelry that used to mean something so dear to them. And Daiana, LMHC: Hm. Cassandra, LMHC: there were a number of occasions that we were able to repurpose the piece or find a use for it and making a new piece of jewelry that commemorated the end. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: They were able to trade it in, they were able to restyle it, they were able to do a number of different things, and it was it was a closing for them. And it offered them Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: a bit of peace and it was a representation that they could keep with them, that it was a whole new chapter in their life. Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: And so it's it's signaling the old version of you that has passed, Daiana, LMHC: yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: that a new version is being born. And it doesn't always have to be as what that sounded as simplistic. It could be like we mentioned earlier, lighting lanterns. It could be s Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: planting trees. Daiana, LMHC: Ugh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Because it could signify an life and Cassandra, LMHC: It could be growth. Daiana, LMHC: growth. Yeah. When you were saying about the the jewelry, it reminded me, I think it was like Tia Morry that she got divorced and she took her wedding rings and melted it down and made charms for her kids. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: And don't quote me exactly on that, but I'm pretty sure that that's what it was like. She created a piece of jewelry for her kids from that. Because the thing is that those kids, the parents are divorced, but those kids still have the same parents. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: So I'm just throwing this out here. If that happened and and she's listening to this show, if she'd like to, you know, share that with us or comment or do anything, we would greatly appreciate it. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, because that's something I'm gonna be fact checked on, right? Cassandra, LMHC: Ha ha Daiana, LMHC: That is so funny. Yeah, and but yeah, that that is that is a really sweet one. when it comes to jewelry as well, I know that that is something that we use in grief counseling to remember someone by, like w Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: whether you have a charm or a necklace that that reminds you of a loved one that's past. It helps anchor that, that grief. So jewelry could mean a l a lot of different things. Like you said, it could be something happy, it could be sad, it could be, but you're you're changing the meaning behind it. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: And and then that kind of leads us into the idea of building new traditions, right? Building new rituals, doing all Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: these different things. And sometimes that's even applicable to when we have what's called like a chosen family. So Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: let's say something happens and you can't spend a holiday with your family any longer, but you have these people that you become incredibly close to and they can become your chosen family. When I moved to Florida, Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: It was just me and my now ex and his family. And so Daiana, LMHC: There's nothing. Cassandra, LMHC: I had to find people. I had to make my own family. And it just so happened that like my ex had a brother who was getting a divorce. And we had myself and this woman had children that were cousins. So we decided that Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we would make a family. And help raise these kids together so that they would know who Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: their family was. And then my best friend, she she was also raising a daughter on her own. So she joined our little family and we called it the village. And so we have Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: all these village memories of parties and anniversaries and deaths and and birthdays and this entire life. And the only people who are actually blood related are the children. And Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: it's just it's been a beautiful time of of growth for us. And it's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: allowing for safe and supportive relationships to help mitigate the stress and the loss of what could have been much more devastating for us at the time. Like Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: This my relationship ended, her relationship ended, Sasha's relationship ended, and Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: we came together. And built new traditions to help restore that sense of safety. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We talk about the when we talk about the nervous system, your body is in distress. And when we are in community, like you said, it literally mitigates that stress because we need each other. And I know in a lot of cultures, I know in Latino culture specifically for me that we were taught that like family over everything and anything and everyone. So the concept of chosen family was not one that I that I grew up with. it was almost the the opposite, like you don't you don't trust people who are not in your family kind of thing. and I think that has changed as let's say even like for for families who've who are who've immigrated here and their kids are first generation. We do take on different Parts of the American culture, but also things change, right? Like you Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: said, people move, they marry, they divorce, or they they bring in different people into their families. And that concept of chosen family is a lifesaver. Being open to accepting love again, right? Like if a person gets burned in a relationship, to be open that even if family isn't there for you, that there's a possibility to have that same connection, a very strong connection. And we were talking to Audre, we were talking about that conditional love. And Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: there is something really special about choosing the people or the people choosing you of this of this new family. Cassandra, LMHC: Because it Daiana, LMHC: And mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: feels so much more unconditional. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like they're not in it for something specific to get something. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-mm. Daiana, LMHC: Or there's there isn't this preconceived notion of who you were and how they see you. They they know you for who you are right now. And mm hmm. No, no, no. Cassandra, LMHC: Also makes me think, sorry, of my kids where they'll they'll just say, I'll be like, you're so smart or you're so pretty or whatever it is. you have to say that. Like the thing about chosen family is they don't have to do anything. They don't Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They don't have to. Cassandra, LMHC: have to say anything. They don't have to support you in any way, shape, or form. It's just Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They choose to. Cassandra, LMHC: mm-hmm. That's what makes it so unconditional. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. When you mentioned traditions as well, it's like it's such a double edged sword because traditions are beautiful. But when a person passes away or a person is not in your life anymore, and that tradition comes up again in the calendar, it becomes so painful. And when it comes to chosen family, there's also this concept of reclaiming. These traditions, reclaiming the date. That means you're overriding it with something new. And so that it doesn't trigger these bad feelings or these feelings that are holding you down that are not helping you. Sometimes anniversaries or holidays just feel tainted in in some way, shape, or form. And doing something sometimes non traditional or a Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: non, yeah, like a non tradition. you might not do this every year, but this year it makes sense. It makes sense for what we're going through right now because sometimes trying to force a tradition that doesn't make sense anymore does not make you feel safe or happy. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm mm. It's also why, like, I show up at your house every Thanksgiving, like the Kool Aid man. I just like kick the door in and I'm like, Hey, I'm here again and you guys are like, All right, come on in. We've got paneen. Daiana, LMHC: Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And good example, because even this year we weren't sure if it was going to happen. And I was just like comfort, like, you know, assuring you that if you can't come, like not to feel bad. Because it's like, this has become a new tradition. And I think it was my own like. Feeling weary, hey, we we don't have to feel bad if something changes one year. It doesn't mean you can't come again next year. Right. that traditions, it's still a tradition if we miss a year, right? Like it's still Cassandra, LMHC: It's true. Daiana, LMHC: a thing. And I think I felt like I desperately wanted you to know that when you call, I was like, you know, it's okay. Like if something changes, it's okay. Because this tradition came from being open to change. into doing things differently. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you knew that. Cassandra, LMHC: No, I just I didn't know your side of it. My side of it was Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: I was like, I don't know what's going on. Things might be different. And you know, change Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: change is bad, change is scary, but it's it's actually not. It's just kind of a fact life. And the the idea behind we had talked about this a little bit earlier. I think it was just you and I discussing it was Daiana, LMHC: Mm. Cassandra, LMHC: another idea of a ritual is just like the the ritual of slowing down, right? Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Like allowing yourself the time to process, allowing yourself the time to heal, allowing yourself to not be in any motion of action because sometimes the actual action is inaction, which sounds weird and I said action a lot in that sentence, but it's Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: giving yourself a moment to be quiet, to sit quietly, to to process whatever it is that you need to process, or not to do anything at all. Just sit there. Like that's perfectly Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: acceptable too. It's It helps with the brain's default mode network, which actually Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: requires downtime to process really complex emotions and integrate all of these new things into this new identity. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. And right at the beginning, we call that acute grief, is when that initial shock is happening. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: That is when it's almost re it's it's almost required and your body does it. It it it it stops you in your tracks. The thing is that we fight it, and that's when it can cause damage. I'm sure we've heard stories or have happened to us that. When things are bad, we end up ruining more relationships. We end up making things worse. And we can always, always make things worse. When it comes to grief or trauma or loss, there may be this feeling that we can't make things better. And it may be true. We can't make anything better right now. The loss is what it is, right? But we can always, always make things worse. And when we don't allow and we don't surrender to our body and say, well, I wasn't planning this. I didn't want this. I don't want this. But this is what's happening. We gonna we are gonna end up either hurting ourselves more or hurting others and making things worse. Cassandra, LMHC: It reminds me of the the balloon string that we were just talking about. Where if we hold on and hold on and hold on and hold on and dig our heels in, there's no room for growth, there's no room for expansion, there's no room for a release. And I'm actually Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: picturing when you tie the balloon string around your hand and it just pulls tighter and tighter and tighter, you're causing Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: more harm than anything else because Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: you can cut your hand that way. You can you can physically bleed. there are different things Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: that will happen to you that are more harmful than letting it go. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Right. And as humans, we love to be in control. Right. And there is control in you embracing and deliberately saying, All right, well, I'm going to make the change. This is going to be a season of slowing down. I am going to take sometimes we can't take a vacation or a getaway, literally, like going somewhere, but we can still take a mental break, a mental vacation where you are. Whether you're disconnected from the internet or you are just like, I'm not going to dwell on this right now. I'm gonna just be in be in the present. we were talking about going out to eat on your own, that that could be for some people and maybe not for others, or going to have a coffee. talking a lot to moms. Sometimes we get these little breaks that were unexpected and We don't have time. W when you have kids especially you can't just that's why I love my single friends. Like sometimes you can call them up and be like, What are you doing? Nothing great. Come to have coffee with me. But sometimes you can't and it's okay to go on your own and to do these things. Cassandra, LMHC: And I don't mind so much the going on my own and doing these things. I learned how to do that in in college and actually really enjoy it. But it's the sitting in silence because I will find myself if if I've Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So uncomfortable. Cassandra, LMHC: got time, I'm gonna be scrolling on my phone. I'm gonna be reading a book. I'm going to be Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: crocheting. I'm going to be doing something that is active in the inactivity. But Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. But crocheting is actually calming, whereas Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: scrolling on your phone actually drains the energy away from you. Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. But it's really addicting. Daiana, LMHC: It is so addicting. And I well, we'll talk a little bit more of this in in the Living Lost Lessons, which is right now. We're Cassandra, LMHC: Cool. Daiana, LMHC: as we're gonna wrap up today's conversation, we're gonna move on to our favorite segment, Living Lost Lessons. Cassandra, LMHC: This is where we leave you with a tangible tool or mindset shift because it's not about fixing the grief. It's about finding the strength to carry it. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. So what I was about to mention, I completely forgot. So let's just keep going with the Cassandra, LMHC: Let's roll with it. Daiana, LMHC: let's roll with it but it'll come back to me. It'll come back to me. But when we're thinking about rituals and things that we can do differently because our life has changed, I want to leave you all with a prompt and for you to fill in the blank here. To honor this version of myself that I had to let go of, I am going to blank. So while when you're filling this out, you're thinking about a quiet loss that you're carrying now that that I'm going to blank maybe plan a small event or take a small action or choose the season to rest. Or that's what I was gonna say. So I know it was gonna come back. When when you're gonna choose to crochet or do a puzzle. Or scrolling on your phone, you're still wanting to do the same thing, which is to calm your your your nervous system. You may be flooded with emotions, you may be like it this distress, the fight or flight, you your body literally thinks is in danger. And you're doing these things to self-soothe, to calm yourself, right? you will notice that when you scroll in your phone or binge watch Netflix or something. That you actually feel more drained. Cassandra, LMHC: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: so so when you're filling the blank, I encourage you to think about what that looks like for you. It could be, booking a a trip or like a staycation kind of thing, or hosting a dinner with chosen family. Cassandra, LMHC: Could be touching grass. It could be sincerely, going outside. This Daiana, LMHC: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Cassandra, LMHC: people are gonna think it's weird, some of them, but going outside without your shoes on, go Daiana, LMHC: No. real. Cassandra, LMHC: to a park and just sit in the grass, unless you live in Florida, watch out for the fire ants. they're everywhere. But Daiana, LMHC: Ugh yeah, so tall. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: spending a few moments just grounding yourself because it doesn't have to be an expensive ritual. It doesn't have to be something that we spend money on, even though sometimes that's nice too. but but it can just Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: be something very simple but meaningful to each of us. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And that that's an ex great example of what the mental vacation looks like. It is Cassandra, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: it is literally touching grass. Or if you like sand, the beach. Some people hate it, but whatever whatever it is for you. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: Sand gets everywhere. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. I don't mind it. I know everybody in my house minds it, but I don't mind it. But I would love to hear from from you. The listener who is filling out that blank. If you would email us or you can follow us on Instagram, all of our information is in the show notes. We would love to hear what your rituals are. Have you been in a season of life that has almost forced you to be creative and and change something? I think that with the lives we're living, we've we've pretty much been forced to to create new. new things. I think it's funny how people are not talking about analog this. Let's do an analogue day or whatever. I don't know what they're talking about specifically, but to basically unplug. They just want to be us, Cassandra, from you know, from when we were growing up. Cassandra, LMHC: From the eighties and nineties. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. There's something about that. Mm-hmm. Cassandra, LMHC: analog day. I've never heard that and I I like it though. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, that's a thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I was thinking how are my kids don't know how to tell time on an analog watch, but random thought. Cassandra, LMHC: My daughter, no, she checked my phone yesterday and I have an analog clock on there. She's like, I don't know what that says and then went and Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra, LMHC: found it printed on something. It was great. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. So we'll love to hear from you and thank you if you're still here for listening to us and spending this time with us. Please be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss a new episode. And if this conversation reminded you of someone who needs to know and needs to hear that their grief is valid, please share it with them. Cassandra, LMHC: And just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we're not your therapists. And this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you'd like to speak to somebody, please reach out to a professional near you. Daiana, LMHC: And we'll catch you next week on The Living Loss.