Latest / The Weekly Run / I'm a little Verklempt | #13

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I'm a little Verklempt | #13 · The Weekly Run

• Jeff Perera: Welcome to the Weekly Run, I'm And today we are talking about what's hot at Jeff's Bagel Run. And Glen Turchin is hot. He is here with us in Virtual Studio. It's still funny. He's here in Virtual Studio. yeah, like if you don't know who Glen is, guess, Glen, you tell us who you are? Aaron: I'm Aaron. It's still funny. Glen: Mm. Hey guys, thanks for having me on. ⁓ Jeff, what has it been, six years now? Six years since Jeff and I first met. But I fell in love with roasting coffee a long time ago and ⁓ that's the reason why we're here today. Jeff Perera: Six, yeah. Listen, I need to hear a little bit of the love story you have with coffee because you're a young guy, certainly younger than me. And I think coffee fits in with maybe your demo but I don't know, you could have also probably been doing micro craft beers under your sink at home. I don't know, tell me why. That's what we're here to learn. That's what we're here to learn. Glen: Well, who says I didn't do that? You know? I, uh... Aaron: Did you just? ⁓ Jeff Perera: So why coffee? Why is it such a passion? Glen: Yeah, I, like many of us, started off drinking Starbucks and cold brewing was my thing. I was cold brewing coffee. Someone one day gave me a bag of a super high end, you know, natural processed coffee and I cold brewed it. And the next day I had like blueberries and chocolate in a cup. And I was like, how is this coffee? You know, it was like a whole rabbit hole that I ran down. And then I ended up just roasting coffee on my stove top. But I just, was so fascinated by the differences in, and the differences ⁓ of the of coffee that come from different origins and just roasting them. ⁓ And that's of where, ⁓ and of you know, the caffeine addiction and high from ⁓ the drug right? Of course. ⁓ But that's where my for coffee kind of came from. ⁓ Sure is. Jeff Perera: It's the number one abused drug in the world. It's fantastic. Aaron, you're a coffee drinker. Aaron: Yes, ⁓ I have to something here, which I don't know if this is the right ⁓ confessional space as gets recorded but ⁓ I'm like one of those people ⁓ like I'm a coffee drinker, I coffee, but like, do I know coffee? I get around person like Glen and I'm like, ⁓ I'm just the box wine guy of coffee ⁓ because, ⁓ you know, I'm like, so is we do just. ⁓ just to frame that even further, have, Glen comes in with the team and we do tastings and he gives me three or four small cups and I sip them and I'm gonna tell you, I sip them and I swish and I move the cup around. He could put everything, I could be on the same thing in all cups. It could be six cups of the same thing and all that could be somebody else's coffee. And I'd be like, yeah, Glen, is, know, cuppy really is, the acidic tones are really hitting me. I have no idea. But I tell you what I do know, I love a good cup of coffee. I feel like we have that. I can tell good from bad. I'm binary. That's the engineer in me. We have good coffee. Glen: Well, listen, I, you know, there's a spectrum of coffee. I don't want to call it elitist or or what's the word I'm looking for? Pretentiousness, right? There's different levels. I would say I'm in the middle. There's there's people that are far more, you know, pretentious with their cup of coffee than I am. I think for me, I also just want a good cup of coffee like early bird espresso, which is what we use in the shops is my everyday drinker. And I feel like you go through phases, right? You start off with, me the Maxwell cup of coffee or give me whatever cup's gonna get me jolted and get me up in the morning. And then you kind of evolve into that Starbucks coffee drinker. And then you move into more of a refined coffee like Jeff's. That's how I kind of see the progression. Aaron: so that I'm curious your thoughts on this. Is somebody that's walked it and then decided to jump even further down the chasm of like, I can do this. ⁓ Which again, you and Jeff both in rarified air in my mind because you both saw something that you didn't do before. You're like, hey, I should do that. I can do that. ⁓ So I that but like what, in that journey, why do think people are drawn to coffee? Cause it's hilarious because I've seen more people come in and then are surprised that we even have coffee and then are doubly surprised that it's good cause their expectation is low. So like, but it becomes this almost sort of religious thing. It's like we have to convert them. There's somewhere else that they get coffee and to get them to... Jeff Perera: And well, the coffee space is packed, Aaron. Like, I mean, there's so many people doing coffee on top of it. So yeah, this is great. Aaron: But why do people love it? Like that's what I'm saying, like in your experience, what draws people to it? Glen: It's because, well, I think we're habit, we're creatures of habit. and we do things every day in a very systematic way, even if we don't realize we're doing it. And coffee is just like that morning ritual. Whether your ritual is making your own cup of coffee with your espresso machine and weighing out your grounds like I do on the coffee nerd side, or it's just running by Jeff's grabbing your cup of coffee with your bagel and running out the door. like, I think it's just habitual. It's also addictive, I will say, ⁓ Coffee itself, that helps. ⁓ But I think that's just the culture of drinking coffee. Jeff Perera: I think you hit the nail on the head with ritual because people have to look forward to in the morning. And if it's going to or, brewing a ⁓ of espresso at home, know, ⁓ you have that ritual of the coffee. There's that routine. ⁓ I think it also jumpstarts of who we ⁓ in the morning as we're going throughout the day maybe Aaron: maybe just over and over again, because you just need that. When you get to a certain age, you just need, you know, you need that boost. Jeff Perera: enjoy it. Or just on repeat over and over again. Glen: Yeah. No, and people refine it so much. What I've learned over the years is that people have a weekday morning coffee routine and they have a weekend morning coffee routine. People are very, it's very regimented in how they drink their coffee, how they want it, the temperature, what's in it. Is it iced, is it hot? There's just so many details. There's so much detail that goes into it. And I think it just makes it an overall very personal experience for everybody that drinks coffee. Jeff Perera: When I was working in other jobs and traveling, I would often drive through the Dunkin' Donuts drive-thru, I'd get my coffee, and I don't drink my coffee anyway like you drink your coffee. I'm like three cream, three sugar. want it sweet and milky. ⁓ the temperature of the coffee made such a difference to me, because you can't drink that coffee right when it comes out. Like had to take the lid off and let it sit in my cup holder and slosh around a little bit to get some of that heat off, because I would just scorch the roof of my mouth and then be upset that I didn't have my coffee drinkable. You said a couple words earlier, I have to go back to them. You got your first bag of naturally processed coffee. Somebody heard that. ⁓ Glen: Yep. Jeff Perera: three minutes ago and was like, what does that even mean? So tell me what a naturally processed coffee is. Well, as we often joke about this podcast being a audio experience, and not a visual one, the look in your eyes that were like, ⁓ what, what did he say? Yeah, so for people, mean Aaron. Like that's really what I'm talking about. Like, so tell Aaron what a naturally processed coffee is. Aaron: Is that somebody me? Because I just heard that three minutes ago and I have no idea what that means. Glen: What did you say? Aaron: Yeah, yeah. Please educate me. Glen: So let's go super high level here, right? Coffee has to be fermented because coffee grows inside of a cherry. Not many people realize that, but there's two seeds inside of a cherry and that's why they face each other. That's why coffee beans are flat on one side and round on the other side. That has to be fermented. You can't just easily pull out thousands of these beans by hand without taking three weeks to do it. So what farmers have found was they ferment the coffee and what that does is it easily removes the cherry. the parchment. Most coffee we drink today is what's called a washed coffee. That is coffee that is fermented to a certain level and washed off. What they found over the years was if they leave that cherry on the coffee, it ferments and bacteria and yeast and things happen on that cherry. That is beyond my knowledge and understanding. And the result is when you roast the coffee, get a fruited, you get blueberries, strawberry, you get different fruit notes from the cherry. And so. know, going back from the beginning of time, coffee was just this thing that was a commodity that was, you know, that was grown, sent to wherever it was being roasted, roasted as quickly as possible and roasted dark. And over time we've learned to, you know, give coffee some love in that process. And with that, nuanced flavors have come from it. I mean, and that's recent. That's like the nineties, right? Is when this really started to hit the masses, naturally processed coffee, which if you think about it in Ethiopia, ⁓ back in time, they didn't have a lot of water to be able to process coffee, but they had a lot of coffee. So they had to process it the natural way, which is letting them all just lay out on these beds in the sun to ferment. Coffee talk, we should have called this coffee talk. Aaron: I did not know that. I knew none of those things. I mean, knew the cherry part. That was all I knew. Jeff Perera: That's... Glen: Yeah. I have a, have a- Yeah, I have a wealth of a lot of pointless information or like, you know, information that really is rendered useless unless, you you put it in the right context. Jeff Perera: It's not pointless. So what are the other ways that they process coffee today? Glen: the way I look at it, ⁓ the way I look it is there's two ⁓ main categories. ⁓ There's coffees, ⁓ is the majority coffee that we drink today, ⁓ and there's natural process Then there's like ⁓ 700 different types of underneath each ⁓ that you can kind dive into, which ⁓ I don't even do I just say, what does the coffee taste like? Is it a wash or a natural? Awesome, let's go. Jeff Perera: Okay. So I've often seen get a new bag of coffee ⁓ you get pretty excited about it. ⁓ You ⁓ pretty excited. You could see the excitement in his face when he said that, I know. What excites you about a new bag of coffee? The green coffee, a lot of ⁓ people don't know this, they see their and it's like a dark brown color, right? Because it's been roasted already. Coffee comes in green, it's an agricultural product. You get these giant 150 pound bags. ⁓ When you crack that thing open, Glen: I Jeff Perera: What does that feel like? Glen: opening ⁓ as many of green coffee as I have ⁓ and then it and tasting it. ⁓ I really can get picture and a visual in my head, which is weird because we drink it right. But ⁓ I get visual of like ⁓ a chart what color ⁓ that coffee going to move toward. Right. If it's a wash coffee and it's more of just something that we use ⁓ in the run, ⁓ it's more just ⁓ a brown color. ⁓ If it's natural processed coffee that we're going to sell. like on the website that's super adventurous. ⁓ I raspberry or blueberry or like these colors just kind of pop into my head. ⁓ And also different levels of fermentation when it comes to coffee. So ⁓ the coffee just smell different than the naturals. ⁓ And ⁓ the fermented coffees smell different than the not so fermented coffee. So ⁓ there's a rep, there's just this whole thing that ⁓ still me that excitement as like opening my first bag of green coffee back when I first was roasting coffee in my garage that ⁓ still me to this day that I I I love it. Aaron: So speaking of exciting then, along the same lines, you must be pumped at, did your toy show up? Is it been installed? Is it in the nest yet? Glen: yes. So what Aaron, yeah, so. ⁓ we got a new roaster that is about four times our and it's currently sitting in the back ⁓ and unfortunately the reality is that waiting on the power company to give us the approval ⁓ to move forward, yeah, to move with the electrical requirements to get this baby up and running. So ⁓ I'm sitting here right now in warehouse staring at the roaster just ⁓ sunbathing in the front window as wait for the power company to show up. ⁓ Aaron: That's what I was gonna guess. Electrical. It's probably electrical. Always. Jeff Perera: This is quite the upgrade from your, you know, stovetop popcorn popper back in the day. Even to when I met you, you were roasting on a, what like a, how big was that, 1K? No. How big was the roaster in your garage? Glen: The... Yeah, two pounds basically, two pound roaster from, I mean, tiny, tiny, tiny. It would take us, it would take me weeks, months probably to produce what we produce today for a week, you know, in the amount of coffee we do. we're, so that was a one kilogram machine, which is about 2.2 pounds. We are roasting on a 15 K today, which is about call it 30 pounds. The new one is a 60 K, six zero, ⁓ which we can put almost a full bag of coffee in. Jeff Perera: Tiny brush. Glen: there at about 130, 140 pounds. So it's going to be next level when we get that thing fired up. I'm pretty excited. Jeff Perera: I think I could lay down flat in the cooling tray. Glen: ⁓ think if we filled it up with water, we can make turn it into a hot tub. It's that big. It is that big. Yeah. And you'll have to come check it out. Jeff Perera: It's like, it's huge. It's so big. It's so big. Yeah. ⁓ Aaron: Yeah I haven't seen it yet. ⁓ It's been a minute since I've been over there, so I have to and we have the the tasting lab over there so like Whip myself up something over in the kitchen Glen: Yeah. Come on by. Everything's free here. Jeff Perera: Don't say that too loud. Aaron: Address undisclosed. Glen: Not really, but you know. Jeff Perera: Hahaha Glen: Yeah, everything's free to certain people now. ⁓ Jeff Perera: Yeah. ⁓ Aaron: Listen, all 15 of our listeners, our streamers will be there tomorrow or the day after podcast release. just, you don't know what you've unleashed on yourself. Glen: That's still gonna be a problem. That's still gonna be a problem. We don't have bagels here everybody, so the fun really isn't here. It's just half the fun. Jeff Perera: That's hilarious. Go to a bagel shop, it's much more fun. Glen, what is the thing that you're most excited about right now ⁓ in the coffee space? Because I think we've seen of trends, tons of happening. ⁓ People who ⁓ are gonna this title this podcast and be like, know, Coffee Talk with Glen, they're probably gonna think we're like some... ⁓ Third Wave Coffee Company talking about whatever, blah blah blah. But like what's the thing you're excited about? What's next? Aaron's like, what's Third Wave Coffee? I don't even know what that means. But like what do you feel excited about? What were the first, I know, Ethiopia as Wave One. Like Aaron's like, what? ⁓ So what's getting? Aaron: were the first two waves. I mean honestly it's it's more of an age discriminator because if you say coffee talk and if you're an older person you're gonna think of SNL from a million years ago and then if you're younger than 45 you're gonna be you're gonna think of something else probably waves three you know two through seven of coffee but that's what I think that's what my brain keeps says thanks for making me feel old Jeff Perera: Yes, yes. Glen: you Aaron: That's what I appreciate. Glen: Lots of waves, lots of waves. Some say we're in the fourth wave of coffee, but who knows? ⁓ What am I excited about? As someone that drinks black coffee, and over the years, you learn that not everyone's gonna drink coffee like you, right? They're not gonna drink natural processed coffees, Aaron, right? They're not going to, there's just different ways that people drink coffee, and that's okay, right? In the end, we're in a business, we gotta sell what's gonna sell. And so, There's been so many gimmicks in the space that have come and gone. Some have stuck around like cold brew. Some say cold brew was once a gimmick and I think they were wrong. I look forward to when I to coffee shop, ⁓ whether it's a cappuccino or a latte, those are of the two that I bounce in between. ⁓ And I say I drink my coffee black, like when I'm going to check out a new shop, I get a cappuccino and Jacqueline, my wife, gets a latte. And that is how we kind of grade the coffee shop. Right. So like, what am I excited about? I'm excited about just a damn good latte. Like just a latte that is, whether it's ice or hot, is just full of flavor. You can taste the coffee and like it's a balanced drink. And I feel like that's missing today. if you look at ⁓ what we sell the bagel shop, like a lot of what we sell just lattes. ⁓ Like maybe like a cinnamon vanilla latte or ⁓ a plain latte. ⁓ Like that what I get excited about. ⁓ Just a baseline. ⁓ Aaron: reminds me there's a video online, I don't know if you've ever seen it, Glen. I think it's John Cena and he goes on this rant. ⁓ Basically what you just said, ⁓ his drink was like a flat white. And he had this whole thing of like, have you seen this video? Glen: Yes. I think Jeff actually said it to me. I just saw that maybe like a month ago or something. It is fantastic. Yeah. Jeff Perera: Yeah. Aaron: It's so good. He is such a coffee nerd. had no idea. like he like, just like you did, he like breaks it down. I'm like, I always order the same drink and then that's how I can rank them because I expect this, I expect that. This is normally what places do and it's not right. And so like that, that rules them out immediately. So if you like building our coffee program, obviously you and, you know, Jacqueline are, you you build this whole program, you've expanded it. Glen: Yeah. Aaron: Like what are those non-negotiables or like what are those things you make sure that most people will probably miss? I know certainly stuff I miss, but like what are the sort of things that you're like, no, this is the bar for, you know, for JBR Coffee and for the experience and our whole program. Like where do you guys draw that line to make sure that what goes is obviously the best and you know, to your standards. Glen: Well, I think the biggest learning for us was going from the original Jeff's location at Okoye, which was only cold brew and drip coffee, right? Going from that and then stepping up to espresso, first of all, was like. Okay, I served all these, I have provided a product for all these other coffee shops who have then used our beans into the form that they wanted to do. So like honestly, this was the first time we were actually building, and we owned a coffee bar for a little while, but it wasn't the same, like building a program that was gonna be pushed out to not just one or two locations, but 33 locations today. ⁓ And so, You know, the first thing I learned with roasting coffee was just like, don't burn your coffee, which is what most people do today. Right. Everyone has a dark roast. It's a great business model. It's cheap and it's easy to do. And so I always held the line of like a good medium roast. You want to balance the coffee. You don't just want all bitterness. You also don't want to roast coffee super light like some shops do and have all acidity. Let's just find something that just really is a round. And again, going back to my latte or my cappuccino, like I just want balance in my in my drink. And I think like that is where we started from, right? And then after that, we walked down the line with Jeff and with Danielle to create the Jeff's Coffee Run, which is like the medium roast drip coffee. ⁓ To say like there's one specific thing we kind of looked at, it's hard to really dial it in of what that would be, aside from just the base of like, what's our espresso gonna be, right? Like what's our roast level, what's our blend? ⁓ But. Aaron: Yeah. Glen: Balance, like we just look for balance in our drinks. And I think that's missing from a lot of shops today. Jeff Perera: I think there's a ton of trendy stuff in places. I that those trends go from ⁓ the drive-through coffee to the highest and most pretentious coffee shops. You know, ⁓ I frequent both I it's hilarious the barista like pops out of the drive-through window and is trying to get in my car at Severn Brew. It's hilarious, but the same time, I think when you walk into another place and you order a cola latte and it's basically half a coke with some milk and a shot of espresso in it, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? I just really want, for me, my benchmark's a vanilla latte. I just want to walk in and get a vanilla latte. Does it have a little bit of sweetness to it? Can I taste the vanilla? Glen: What are we doing? Yeah. Jeff Perera: Is it bitter? Is it acidic? I look for those things as well. I want that round cup. I think that's why we landed where we landed. Because we cupped a lot of those little cups of coffee, Aaron, that Glen puts in front of and you think could all be the same thing. The first time I ever cupped with Glen, ⁓ that process that we're saying the word, I'm saying cupped, C-U-P-P-E-D, ⁓ process is tasting of the coffee, right? Like that's a whole thing in and of itself. Like cupping is a... Aaron: ⁓ yeah. Jeff Perera: I know, is it a roaster thing I know we've done it bunch of times, we did it a lot as we were trying to get Jeff's coffee run right between... Glen: It's actually like really big for green coffee importers. Like they're the ones cupping hundreds of coffees literally to pick the ones they want to bring in and then we buy from them. But cupping is just a way to compare not only different coffees, but also different roast levels ⁓ across the board. And that's what we do to pick coffees that we use, our blends. ⁓ But it's just a way of comparing and contrasting ⁓ side by tasting, ⁓ just like would for a wine tasting or a bourbon tasting. Same thing. ⁓ Jeff Perera: Except when you're done, you're like this, you're just shaking, because you have so much caffeine, your brain is on fire and you're shaking, it's crazy. Glen: Yeah. Yeah, the older I get, the less cupping I can do in one sitting. It's a real thing. Jeff Perera: We drank, when we were doing the cupping for Jeff's Coffee Run between Danielle, Glen, and I, we were just like wired. Hot mess, wired, so much fun. ⁓ I have so many videos of my phone with Glen just like nose deep in a cup of coffee, like, ⁓ can you smell the berries in that? Glen: Wired. too much caffeine. Thanks. Jeff Perera: It's hilarious. It's so good. I'll have to build like a have to build an outtakes clip of all the cupping videos we have because it's nonsense. It's a complete nonsense. Glen: ⁓ man. Aaron: A question to you, Jeff, on some of those early days. I think something we've seen in other places, certainly in our breakfast, QSR category, I feel like a lot of times coffee is, you need it because I think it's more of a defensive mechanism. It's like, oh, if we don't have coffee, somebody's going to have to stop here and somewhere else. So it's an afterthought. It's like it doesn't have to be good It just has to be good enough. So people are willing to ⁓ not go to places or not go to here, right? And I, obviously that's not a great position, but I feel like a lot of places do that. What made you early on in Jeff say, hey, coffee's, even if we're only gonna do drip and cold brews and stuff like that, like, hey, it should be good. Like, let's test it, let's build it. Was that just meeting Glen early on or did you know that coffee was gonna be important? Did Glen convince you? Like, how did that come about? Jeff Perera: I think ⁓ always knew coffee would be a part of the equation once we opened a store. when Glen and I met, I primarily knew him for his cold brew. You know, ⁓ I think we a ⁓ bagels and cold collaboration right before COVID kind of settled in. We delivered under the most cold brew you'd probably ever brewed at that up to that point ⁓ out of ⁓ ⁓ somewhat out of your house. And ⁓ Glen: no doubt. Thanks Jeff Perera: It was pretty wild. It is, I know, it was wild. ⁓ And we delivered like 30 coffee growlers bagels and people loved it. They loved the pairing of the bagels and the coffee. Danielle was always a ⁓ coffee drinker, so we knew coffee was gonna be something that was in the shop. ⁓ was ⁓ off from his job. Glen: It's the truth. Jeff Perera: He was going full coffee, building his roastery out, getting ready to really scale his wholesale business at the same time that Danielle and I were opening the first store in Okohe. And I told Glen, said, we want to have your coffee in your shop. And I was like, I want to have a really good like diner coffee, you know? And we would spend hours on the phone together. I'd be rolling dough, he'd be roasting, we'd be just talking about whatever. And don't know who thought of it or where it came from. Maybe you were working on the bag design and I was like, I think we came up with the tagline. It's like, come for the bagels, stay for the coffee. And we put that on the first bag of Jeff's Coffee Run, which is just the drip blend that we have in the stores today. And we wanted sneaky good coffee. Like we just wanted, I wanted you to come to the bagel shop, get a great bagel, because you knew you were coming to get a great bagel. Aaron: Yeah. Jeff Perera: But then you got your cup of coffee and you're like, whoa, holy cow, the coffee is good. And I can sit down and I can eat and I can pour a cup and have another one. Glen: And And that fits so well with our, with my brand specifically because I couldn't relate with a really higher end pretentious coffee vibe. Like that was the reason I remember when I walked into a coffee shop here in Orlando and I was like, Oh, I want to start roasting coffee. And they were kind of like, really? What do you mean you want to start roasting coffee? You know, like they were kind of like, sizing me up. And I remember just being like, Why does have to be like that? So I, for years, was known, or became known as like, Otis is like kind of that sneaky good cup of coffee. Like, ⁓ Otis just got another coffee shop here in Orlando. Like, they must be doing something kind of cool. And like, it just fit the vibe perfectly of like, sneaky good coffee. Like, I was always on, I love that vibe. Especially from a guy coming from his garage roasting all his coffee. So like, was the perfect fit. Aaron: Well, and I'll say that that... That is definitely, I see that play out in stores I think we're still early in the ⁓ coffee at Jeff's ⁓ journey, be honest, even it's a huge part of the business, I still think it's early in that journey. ⁓ I it's still in that zone, I think, ⁓ which it won't live there forever. ⁓ But I'll ⁓ ⁓ customers ⁓ and I'll see. the stores doing the things that stores should do, right? Like, have you tried our coffee? Here, let me hand out samples or, you know, they'll do a cup for a customer. ⁓ One of the moves I always love is sometimes operators will see you walk in with a cup of somebody else's coffee and they're like, what are you drinking? It's like, ⁓ that's, ⁓ I just got this latte from whatever so-and-so. They're like, here, let me make you one and just force the head to head right in the customer's hands. And we always, you know, we win, which is awesome. Glen: favorite. Aaron: And again, obviously something we're proud of, like, what I always see is you see the customer convert in their mind. Like I didn't expect that. And now I'm pleasantly surprised that, ⁓ wow, this is good. And you kind of get like Jeff, like you said, very organically, you get what happens where it's like, hey, I was already coming here because I enjoyed the breakfast and the bagels, but ⁓ man, one stop shop. I guess I don't need to do two stops anymore, right? It just. you see that whole process play out of sort of being surprised by this thing that they didn't expect. I think eventually we're gonna be very well known for the coffee as we are for the bagels, but it's just neat to see that in this timeframe. Jeff Perera: I agree with you, think people will come to start finding us as their coffee shop. Which I think is really cool. you know when, I mean, ⁓ when Glen and I would, this is like back during like probably summer of 2020, ⁓ might have been before you lost your job, you were like furloughed, and you're like not sure what was happening. He'd be in the garage roasting, I'd have like. Glen: Yeah, yeah. Jeff Perera: my headphones on, my AirPods in or whatever, and I'm rolling dough in my kitchen and Lucas is running around in his diaper like a lunatic and Jacqueline was what, many months pregnant. And we would just get on there and we would talk and I would be like, man, I'm gonna open a shop and I'm gonna be your biggest coffee customer. He's like, okay. And when we opened the first door, ⁓ Glen: ⁓ yeah. Bring it is what I said. Jeff Perera: I ordered like 10 pounds of coffee and like a keg of cold brew because he at that point in time I didn't even know how to make cold brew so Glen would make it for us and deliver it and I was like, we your, what's your biggest, like how many bags of coffee do I need to buy to be your biggest customer? I had no clue, I had no clue. And he's like, you got so far to go. ⁓ Aaron: Yeah. You're not even. Glen: Granted, you were only selling cold brew and drip, so like, you know. Once we added espresso, the game changed. You should have added espresso sooner, Jeff, and then you would have, you know. Jeff Perera: Literally cold brew and drip five days a week in Okohe. I know, I was just, I didn't realize espresso could be, and I'm gonna say something really, this might be a hot take, like I didn't realize espresso could be easy. Glen: Whoa. Aaron: Mmm. That is, that is a bit of a take. Jeff Perera: So, because when you go into a coffee shop and you see somebody like, okay, they got the grinder set up next to the espresso machine. And let's be clear, espresso is not a type of coffee, it is a brew method. I learned that from Glen. Espresso is not a type of coffee, it is a brew method. And so you have this big fancy piece of equipment a smaller fancy piece of equipment, the grinder right next to it. You have to Glen: Boom. Nice one. Jeff Perera: put very amount of grounds into the grinder ⁓ and then you have to take those beans from the, you know, the ground coffee another cup and you gotta swirl it with like a little, ⁓ like a little comb to make sure that the grounds aren't stuck together. But then you pamp it down to make sure they're stuck together and you gotta get the temperature just right and put it underneath another thing. And like I watch this process and I think, dude, just give me a cup of coffee. And then, ⁓ I was like, so that's why I'm not doing it, Glen. And he's like, but it's not that hard. And I'm like, bro, I've seen you at markets trying to make coffee. And I was like, also grinding my butt off trying to like just make bagels. So like the idea of like, this was like hand rolling bagels days, like me and Danielle scooping cream cheese. Like it was, it was, it was a, it was a racket, you know, back then. There was no way someone was going to make a cup of coffee and I couldn't see like the return on the investment. And then. Glen: You also. Yeah, yeah. Saturday mornings that just wasn't happening. Jeff Perera: I'm like, I think it was, Justin said, well, we should try some automatic machines. And we had. Glen: Which at first I was like, ⁓ I don't like this. I don't like this. Jeff Perera: Yeah, I mean we had Glen coffee on his Larmazote, Llamazocca? Is that the brand? Yeah, he's working on his Llamazocco and this like really high-end Italian espresso machine and we in this like auto, like a couple automated machines like you just push a button and coffee comes out ⁓ and we're blind taste testing Glen against ⁓ the machines he's like I can't tell the difference. ⁓ Aaron: Okay. Glen: A more Zoco, yeah, yep. Aaron: Yeah Glen: Yeah, I mean you can but it's not enough to like have the have the barista. Yeah, right. It's not noticeable Jeff Perera: It's not noticeable, yes. You can tell the difference, but it's not noticeable enough when you're talking about the idea of like, how do I get a latte poured in three minutes or less, ⁓ there's five or six of them, and it has like the nice round balance flavor, and I can taste the vanilla, and I can do all that stuff. Like, when you're just talking about a really drinkable cup of coffee, ⁓ can't tell the difference. ⁓ that point, it's about efficiency, consistency, ⁓ speed. Aaron: Well, and it goes back to balance, which is what ⁓ was really saying earlier. It's like, sure. ⁓ know the coffee pot. I've been to those coffee shops where it's like, gotta wait 15 minutes to get my coffee, even though I'm the only one there, because I'm watching my order and I'm watching every little step and it's this artisanal performance piece ⁓ give me my cup of coffee. ⁓ That has its place, it's great, but that's not balanced. ⁓ purposely, it's slow, you're gonna wait a long time, you've really gotta be in a position where you wanna appreciate that. But obviously the alternative to just getting junk coffee is not, that's not the answer. So to find that happy medium, which I think we've nailed, of like, okay, this is still handcrafted, we've got a machine to pull that shot, those machines are dialed, and I should say this that was really eye-opening for me, and I learned a lot of this from you as well, Glen, these machines are not, they're not. Glen: Right. Aaron: I mean, there's something else. Like you guys spent a ton of time dialing these machines in and like, and this is again where I'm like, I'm lost in my coffee depth, but like, ⁓ like, you you're looking at... Looking at all this telemetry on a website from the machine and you're adjusting like tenths a degree of heat and the compaction and the cake size and like all this other stuff and it's like, it's super impressive. I think it's kind of cool that the right tooling, kind like a bagel roller, Jeff. It's like, if you find just the right tool to optimize the right part of the process, you can still get very high quality, but yet efficiency. And it's kind of fun to see that process play out. Jeff Perera: Yeah. 100 % Yeah, 100 % ⁓ no doubt, because I want to be really clear, like the automatic machines are no less sophisticated even though I say it's like easier because all I have to do is push a button the amount of work that Glen has put into making sure that the coffee tastes the way it's supposed to taste it's the perfect button push Aaron: It's the perfect button push. Glen: Dude, I'll tell you what, my... Jeff Perera: It's the perfect button push. Jacqueline would also tell you he has the perfect button push. He knows how to push her buttons just the right way. ⁓ Aaron: Hahaha Glen: Yeah, yeah, well that's a different conversation but My la my la marzocco machine is like the most basic simple thing you can buy But somehow it's it's almost like a mac right like they found a way to like make this la marzocco brand Which is fantastic by the way, and I love my machine, but it's so simple. There's not even buttons on it It's a paddle. That's it the ever since that we use is definitely more in-depth and more of a you gotta teach the machine to learn the coffee almost. Like it's not just a plug and play. And just like in coffee, we're still learning every day. Like we're still figuring new things out. That's why I love coffee, because it's never the same. And it's always something evolving, something changing, and that's honestly why I'm still here doing coffee. Aaron: Yeah. Jeff Perera: When I pull a shot in the store and the timer on the the Eversys machine says like 12 seconds, I was like, oh, I know that's wrong. And I'm like, Glen, what do need to do? And he's like, you need to run ETC and check the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, can you please look at that for me? He's like, no, because you're not on Wi-Fi and you don't have telemetry. And I'm like, what are we launching rockets like Artemis going around the moon or something? The telemetry is off. You know, crazy. Glen: Basically. Yep. Aaron: mean, yes. Get with it, man. Jeff Perera: Yes, we are, it's what we're doing. I know, sorry. But I figured it all out. I became a coffee expert in Madison. Aaron: That just means you had to train at the coffee station. Glen: Good, we need more of you. Jeff Perera: No, no, no, this was, went deeper than that. I was like, I had screwdrivers in like service ports and I, what was the type of screwdriver that is a very special T20 screwdriver? Is that what it's called? The star key, yeah, it's like, it's called a star key, but it's like a T20. There's like the description's like, use a T20. And I'm like, what is that? And then like, of course I talked to Aaron about it and he was like, oh yeah, he's like, we use that in all kinds of small electronics. I'm like, of course, you know what that is. Of course. Glen: Yeah, exactly. ⁓ The star key. Yeah. Of course. Aaron: Listen, I'm just surprised we didn't have to RMA that machine. I'm just happy that it survived your tickering. Glen: It's working great. It's working great. Jeff Perera: I've only broken a few things. Glen: Only a few. Jeff Perera: Only a few. Only a few. All so Glen's excited about classical coffee drinks like lattes and cappuccinos. When walks into a coffee shop and they say Glen, or know, just big around, they're like, let me get a large cappuccino. ⁓ How does that make you feel? Glen: When they do that, they're really just getting a latte. I was trying to figure out where this was going. Jeff Perera: This is yeah, I was rage Yes, this is purely rage-bait. I yeah like I just I I mean we have two cup sizes at Jeff Bagel run we serve our cappuccino in ⁓ What that a 12 ounce hot cup? ⁓ and Someone time asked sometimes ⁓ one time said to me. Why can't I get my cappuccino iced? ⁓ Aaron: Were you banning him? you just rage banning him for that? Glen: I've gotten over it. Jeff Perera: like that's just not a cappuccino but yeah you can pour it over ice whatever you want you know sure you want me to steam the milk first? Glen: You can get it any way you want. Sure. Have it your way as some other QSR chain would say it, or fast food chain. Jeff Perera: Well, so let's talk about, you just said QSR or fast food chain. A lot of other places are getting, are picking up their coffee game. And I don't know whether or not it's true, but you know, whether it's actually good, I should say, but Japan McDonald's opened a coffee shop for a period of time. I think they subsequently closed it. And I think it was a way to like just test market beverages, but everybody seems to be getting into coffee and Glen: Chick-fil-A, right? Jeff Perera: Chick-fil-A opened up a whole breakfast concept dedicated to, you know, signature coffee drinks and beverages and breakfast food. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of activity in this category. I just wonder, you know, like, not that you're a purist and obviously you're a part of this company and you are starting, you're sort of helping us build this brand around coffee and bagels, but like, what's your take on where beverage is going? And like, what do you see? Because I know you have a bit of a purist heart at points and times, but you are also, you're also like a regular guy who drinks regular coffee and isn't pretentious about it. So what's your take on all this? Glen: Well, I once thought probably three years ago that there was gonna be a drive-through bubble, and clearly there hasn't been, right? I mean, I honestly think the pie of what we can call specialty coffee, I'm doing air quotes for those of you listening, I think... The pie is just getting bigger. I think people are understanding that coffee can be good. Just like you, mentioned, there's the really bad coffee, the really high end coffee, then there's the balanced cup of coffee. And I think everyone's kind of chasing that. ⁓ Let's be honest. Adding extra $5, $6, $7, $8 to the ticket is super helpful, especially at a QSR level. And so I think people are chasing that, but I think they're just chasing getting away from. the commodity coffee we know from the first wave that we talked about earlier of just the cheapest, easiest cup of coffee we can find. So I think everyone's trying to go after that. I'm not sure how many out there are doing it well, ⁓ at least the brands that aren't just coffee, right? Maybe like other food brands that are chasing coffee. I think the jury's still out. ⁓ But I do feel like coffee is just popping up everywhere. Like every brand is chasing it, rebranding their coffee. ⁓ I think it's a good thing. Jeff Perera: I would agree. think the more we talk about coffee, the more it becomes part of our just everyday conversation. Yeah, when it becomes a part of the, yes, 100%. When it becomes a part of the identity of the brand, it's good for us. Glen: Identity. Yeah. Aaron: think what's been kind of wild to see is is the evolution of it is sort of a drink category because again I remember know, growing up, was... Coffee wasn't even something that was branded. It was just, it was like water, tea, coffee. Like, you didn't really care what you got. You just, I ordered coffee and I got something that was hot and, you know, dark colored and tasted, you know, I had to put cream, whatever. It just, it didn't have any... Jeff Perera: It tasted, Aaron, I don't wanna cut you off, but it tasted like coffee. Right? Like there was like a thing, it's like coffee had its own like coffee taste. Aaron: It tasted like coffee. ⁓ But it was just very like there was nobody would go in and be like, what are you brewing back there Folgers? No, I prefer Maxwell house and like, you know would deny the drink like that didn't happen like you ordered coffee and it's like ordering water it just came as a commodity and and then to sort of fast forward to today where It's not it's not that level now. It's a category beverages. You've got everything you've got all the different drink types and it's not just you know I'm thinking of like the Dutch Brothers and a lot of what Starbucks has been doing the last couple of years where it's just this whole category of like beverages that are coffee based but it's not like I just threw a shot in something random although there's some of that it's like a whole line of lattes and it's just interesting to see how it's really become so much more than just hey is it good coffee is it bad coffee is it fancy coffee where I'm gonna get lattes and and you know cappuccinos or not it's now it's like I'll take this interesting flavored beverage with infused protein and cold foam on the top. And like I have six choices of that. It just blows my mind. Jeff Perera: don't know how Glen feels about this, but I see it as a ⁓ of a ⁓ progression. ⁓ ⁓ you see this happen in every food category. ⁓ You can serve a regular cheeseburger, you can serve a cheeseburger with bacon, you can serve a cheeseburger with bacon in a deluxe bun, you can serve a cheeseburger with lettuce, tomato, bacon, and the deluxe bun. Like it just is a continuously level up. And whether we're adding protein or specialty milks or extra shots or flavor or drizzles or sprinkles or whatever, it just feels like that's kind of how quick service culinary goes at times. Glen: Yeah, I think it's a lot to do with just the Starbucks effect ⁓ of just number one Starbucks obviously just being everywhere back in the 90s early 2000s, but also like the lifestyle and like the Branding behind it was really what drove it I feel like even if it wasn't the best cup of coffee and maybe still isn't some people still Think it's the best overall product and I guess you know You could argue either way if it's a branded thing or a lifestyle thing or whatever it is, but I think It the way you said that Aaron was actually really interesting like I used to order coffee and just get coffee And I never actually really thought about that ⁓ Aaron: Yeah. Glen: It kind of has my gears turning a little bit about like how did it evolve? But I feel like the Starbucks effect was a big part of that, right? Which is the obvious, but it changed it from a, I need to wake up in the morning to like, hey coworkers, let's go have an adventure and go get some coffee, right? Aaron: And I think that's the interesting shift I they did couple of revolutionary things, but changed it from this again, this sort of commodity item that you got to a product. They productized just the coffee. And that had never really been done before because even if you went to a coffee shop, ⁓ it was like, okay. ⁓ And it's kind of like how it is when you go to Europe. Like you go to Europe and you're like, I'll have a cappuccino. It's like, they just serve it to you. Nobody talks about any part of the process. It's just served to you and here's your drink. And it's assumed to be universal no matter which coffee shop or baker you walk into. And so that shift from sort of nameless, faceless to, oh, here's a product. It's a frappuccino. It's branded. It's a thing. It's only here, right? And then kind of building on that. Again, you could argue whether or not that's good or bad as far as like the products, certainly they were popular, but I think it just changed the way that people look at the beverage category, which is really kind of cool. I mean obviously we've leaned heavily into it and done a lot of what I think is really fun and interesting things, but never would have been a thing 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And maybe I'm off of my timeline. I'm a little old. Maybe it's 15 to 20 years now. I have no idea. Glen: I had a thought. No. No. I had a thought and I actually totally forgot what it was going to be. ⁓ Jeff Perera: Glen wasn't alive back then, Aaron. He doesn't remember. He's only read about it. He's only read about it. Aaron: That's because I knew when you like seven Glen Listen he he had a complete blank stare when I made the coffee talk reference on SNL he's like I have no idea who that is. That's No, this is trust me. This is a reverse. It's all status was That's right your knees still work so But they work Glen: ⁓ man. I'll take the insults, that's fine. Jeff Perera: No, it's not. This is jealousy is what it is. It's jealousy. But they work. ⁓ man. Alright, now we gotta get some hard hitting questions real quick as we wrap up. What's your favorite bagel, Glen? Glen: Barely, barely. They do. My favorite bagel, hot, is definitely to this day still jalapeno cheddar. ⁓ Although, I say there was a couple of the new ones I tasted, I won't spoil it, but ⁓ there a new one that I tasted. I'm a savory bagel guy, so ⁓ whoever's can kind of maybe dial it in, but the one that's coming ⁓ is ⁓ Aaron: Mmm, winner. Jeff Perera: But I think... What? Listen. There's like 13 people that are gonna actively listen to this Glen. Are you talking about Cheddar Bacon Ranch? Glen: Yes, and like I'm not a big if I order pizza, I'm not a big like barbecue ranch person or not barbecue. Sorry Buffalo Ranch Pizza person or anything like that, but like that bagel punches and it punches in a really good way. So I'm really excited for that bagel Jeff Perera: Did you try that one yesterday, Aaron, or were you ⁓ sticking to your veggies and chicken? You were on the veggies and chicken train yesterday. Aaron: You know, I did end up having a blueberry though. Jeff Perera: Yeah, so the other side of that was the blueberry muffin and that thing was freaking really good too. Also really good. Just wait till you see the May lineup. It ties into our LTO for the summer So it's gonna be fun. ⁓ Bacon Cheddar Ranch comes week actually. is ⁓ on the Bagel the Day calendar, ⁓ Monday or Tuesday, I can't remember ⁓ Glen: Fantastic as well. I had way too many bagels yesterday. Aaron: Yes. Glen: Can't wait. Jeff Perera: It's a good one. Aaron: Who'd you pick for your Bagel Madness Champion, Are you still in are out? Glen: Dude, I did not fill out a bracket. This is actually, I did not think I was gonna be put on the spot for this. My wife was like, what do mean you didn't fill out a bracket? I missed the deadline. I have no excuses. Just go ahead, just lay it on me. Who did you have? Who did you have? Aaron: How dare you? As she should. Jeff Perera: Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. Aaron: Wow, wow. Had I known before this interview, we might have reconsidered. Jeff Perera: Might have reconsidered the entire thing, I know. Glen: Hey, you know, I fully understand that. We can just delete the whole recording and move on. Act like it never happened. Jeff Perera: When Glen's PR firm was like, hey, we want to get Glen on the pod, I'm like, yeah, sure, let's bring him on. It'll be a great guest. It'll be so much fun. I should have asked. have asked. ⁓ our screener anyway? ⁓ Aaron: I had no idea. I said it's You're the screener. Glen: I really should have just lied. I'm talking to the wrong people to tell them I didn't fill out a bracket, right? I mean, I'm talking... Jeff Perera: Alright. You're just... too honest. Aaron: Yeah, you're way too honest, Glen. You should have just picked a bagel, man. You should have just said how, uh, just picked a bagel. Jeff Perera: Well my bracket is busted because I think it was at 5 o'clock now. Yeah, it's 5 o'clock on Wednesday. Official ⁓ banana bread beet cinnamon roll today. So my bracket is officially busted. Aaron: Banana bread has been, banana bread is the Davidson of this bracket, man. Jeff Perera: Do we talk, we talked about banana bread two weeks ago as a Cinderella and I had picked it to make it through the first round, but it is. Aaron: There. It's going, it's going man, I think it's gonna be. Jeff Perera: I know. I think it's gonna win. Glen: You know what? I'm gonna go on a limb and say because of how popular our banana bread lattes are, that's why. People are finally understanding that we're not just sneaky good coffee, we are damn good coffee. Aaron: I Jeff Perera: Let's go. Aaron: Well, I'll tell you, if you told me we were gonna, I think it's gonna be a banana bread garlic bread final, which blows my mind. So, but I have some, well, I'll save it for next week. by next week, we'll be able to do a full wrap up. We'll see if on the stats, I was looking at the stats the other day. So I'll save them all and we'll do. I will say the teaser of it is we actually still have perfect brackets in play. Jeff Perera: Can't wait. I saw the sneak peek of the data and I couldn't believe that people had perfect brackets still. Aaron: Zzzzz The Sheep? Yeah. Still, I mean... Glen: Do they win something? What happens if they get a perfect bracket? Aaron: There's loyalty points on the table, There's loyalty points to be won. Glen: That's right. I saw ⁓ on the ESPN March Madness brackets, there was one person remaining out of 24 million at one point. And I was like, even though they didn't finish a perfect bracket, that person better get something, because that's insane. Aaron: Well, especially with some of the upsets this year, like how do you pick those upsets? Glen: They got through like the Sweet 16. I think they almost got to the Elite 8. It's absolutely insane. Aaron: Well. Glen: So wait, Aaron, one question for you I have, one hard-hitting question. Have you, because I'm like you, I don't love listening to my own podcast when I'm on a podcast. Have you listened to a podcast yet? Have you listened to a bagel podcast yet? Aaron: Yeah. Jeff, which podcast are we on? Which one will this be? Episode 13. So out of those 13, I have listened to zero. Still. Except for when, I wouldn't say it really counts as a listen. When Jeff added the intro music, I listened to the first six seconds just so I could sample the end, and then I skipped to the end. Glen: 13. Jeff Perera: This is episode 13 of The Weekly Run. Glen: ⁓ and then turned it off. Aaron: No, I skipped the end and then listened to the outro music. Cause I just wanted to really check it out, see how good AI was. So my, my... Jeff Perera: He won. He won. I'm dying. He listens to the six seconds of the intro and the outro and that's it. That's hilarious. Aaron: Yeah, yeah. Listen, I can't wait until this is like podcast number 200 and you can ask me again and you're back for like the fourth time and the answer will still be zero. I was there Glen. What do I need to know? do need to hear? I was here. ⁓ Glen: I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna ask. Jeff Perera: I love that question. I love that question so much. You know guys, this has been so much fun. This week's run has come to an end. Bake fresh, bring joy, build community. Thanks for listening, we'll see you next week.