Latest / LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships / #56: Understanding Your Attachment Style Can Make You a Better Parent

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#56: Understanding Your Attachment Style Can Make You a Better Parent · LAUNCH: Parenting Tips for Raising Adult Children & Building Better Relationships

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Sherry Jonas, and this is Launch, a podcast for parents of 20 and 30-year-olds who are struggling to become responsible, resilient, and capable of launching independently into adulthood.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: On this week's episode, I'm joined by Mark Cameron, a licensed marriage and family therapist and author of Understanding Your Attachment Style.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Mark helps people become aware of their attachment patterns, how they develop early in life, and the influence these patterns continue to have on our relationships.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Mark believes that when we understand the root causes of behavior through attachment theory, meaningful growth becomes possible, not only for us, but for our future generations as well.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: In this conversation, Mark explains the five insecure attachment styles and how each one can affect a parent's behavior.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: We also explore the concept of attunement and why it plays such a powerful role in connecting with your adult child.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: If you want a better understanding of how your pattern may be shaping your relationship, this episode will give you the insight you need to begin working toward a healthier dynamic.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're curious about your own attachment style, you'll find a link to an online quiz in the show notes, along with information about where to find Mark's newly released book, Understanding Your Attachment Style.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to share this episode with you, so let's get started.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Mark, welcome to launch.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So happy to be here.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to be speaking with you today.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: You are a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: Recently published a book called, and this is a long title, so Understanding Your Attachment Style, The Path to Overcoming Unhelpful Patterns, and Building Healthy, Secure Relationships.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: Beautiful.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm still reading it because every time I learn about another style, I start thinking, is that me?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: Is that my kid?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_03: Is that my mother?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, I mean, there's five styles, which we're gonna get into, but before we do, um I your story about how you got to working with attachment styles is so interesting to me.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: Can you share with our listener what led you to do that work?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I was in a men's group, and my uh one of my friends' dad suggested reading the book, How We Love.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I read the book and it just totally blew me away because it described one of the attachment styles in there, the vacillated attachment style, described me in words that I didn't have for myself.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: But when I read it, I knew that this was true about me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: It also described uh the triggers that I had, uh, the reactivity patterns that I got involved in.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And it described the dynamic, the conflict cycle that my wife and I um would get into.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was just totally blown away.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, how does this book, how can this explain me in words that I don't have for myself?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that kind of set me on this path of discovery.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: At that time, I was looking to go back and get my hours as a marriage and family therapist.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'd already got my degree, but then life happened.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I was married, I got divorced, then that, but I had sole custody of my son.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I couldn't really take the time to go back and do my clinical hours.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I had to really just get a job and get started again.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: But then, but this time I'd I'd got remarried and uh was in a blended family with my wife.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then yeah, so I read I read this book and then I looked up the authors, and they were here in Southern California, Milan and Kay Yorkovich.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I reached out and I said, Can I come work for you?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, long story short, the story is in the book, but long story short, they said, Yes, I went and I worked for them, and that's how I got into this work.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_03: Lovely, lovely.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, for parents who are new to this, can you briefly explain the five different attachment styles for us?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, let me just say what attachment styles are, just in case someone's wondering.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what is an attachment style?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: I always think, yeah, you're right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: I always think things are like sometimes very self-explanatory.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like I did an episode once where I actually went through all of these different terminologies we use, but go ahead, please tell us what an attachment style is.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people haven't heard about attachment.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Some people haven't.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: So everybody has a relationship style or a bonding style or an attachment style, which is what the research calls it.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that is learned from our families that we grow up in, or in psychology, we call it our families of origin.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so everything that we know we've learned, and everything we've learned, obviously, we've had a teacher.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: So our families of origin are teachers of relationships.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so, how well our parents can pick up on our needs and meet those needs, which is called attunement, how accurately they can do that, how well a parent can attune forms the attachment style of the child.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so when that happens well, when a parent is attuned uh and can pick up and can meet the child's needs, and and the child then feels seen, known, understood, safe, secure, and it's soothed.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when that doesn't happen well, and again, we'll we'll talk about why that might not happen.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it doesn't mean that the parents are bad parents, it's just we don't know what we haven't learned.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: When that doesn't happen well, we form strategies to get our needs met or to deal with our needs going unmet.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how the insecure attachment styles are formed.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, so you're when you talk about the the five different attachments are all insecure attachment styles.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's only one secure attachment style.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Don't don't say it yet.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say that after because I want to first talk about, I want everybody to kind of do what they're gonna do when they read the book is to find their attachment style.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I don't know, I was gonna ask you, are is it possible that there's more than one?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_03: Or is it yes?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: You you can primarily we're gonna we're gonna predominantly one of these attachment styles are are our primary attachment styles.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but most of us grow up with two parents.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So what I can get away with with mom, I can't get away with with dad, right?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or vice versa.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: One of them is typically the primary parent, the one who I see most often.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'll I'll form an independent attachment style with each of them, or an independent bond, I should say, with each of them.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so my attachment style though is based off of that.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so attachment is rated on a spectrum or a continuum.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: So we can be mildly, moderately, or very much like any one of these styles, but a continuum also has two ends.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So what's on the other end?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and that's typically strategies that we developed with the non-primary parent.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So here it's so let me lay them out here.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: So wait, I need you to say that again.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: What about what is it about the non-primary, non-dominant parent?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: What did you just say?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_03: I want you to repeat that again because I need to.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, so what you know I was talking about attachment being on a spectrum.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so a spectrum has two ends, and so we're primarily one of these attachment styles, but what's on the other end of our spectrum?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: All right, where do we lean toward?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so typically it's probably the strategies that we developed with the non-dominant parent.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: So we can be primarily strong in one of them and have tendencies of a different one too.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: I find that interesting.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: All right, yeah, it is, it is interesting.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get into the attachment styles.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'll explain them.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, in no particular order here, so we'll talk about avoidant attachments.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, no uh an avoidant attachment forms for a child who grows up in a home where there's not a lot of talk or about emotions or not a lot of emotional conversations.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so this child typically will fall over, hurt themselves, and start to cry, and they'll get a response of come on, you're okay, you know, stop crying, or there's no monsters under the bed, there's nothing to be scared of.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Don't worry, it's gonna turn out fine.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: It always does, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: So whether this is happening intentionally or unintentionally, the message the child is getting is you're overfeeling.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so, really, it's hurry up and grow up.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And now, typically what's valued in this home is independence or task mastery, getting stuff done, you know, and that could be a focus on academics or a focus on athletics, or maybe it's just you got to do your chores to earn your freedom so you can go out and play with your friends.
• 8:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So this kid uh learns that when I make these expressions of myself, I'm kept at a distance, but I need my parents because I need them to supply for my physical needs.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And oftentimes that's where they get their out of boys, is when they perform at school or in athletics.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and so this person learns to turn the volume down on their emotions and they lean into performance.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they're typically performance performers, they're consistent, and that makes them attractive to others in adulthood, you know, and that's reinforced typically in the in the adult working world, or or if you know they're in sports growing up, yeah, right.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Get over it, get on with it, push forward, be efficient.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and that's attractive to others in romantic relationships because they're consistent, they're high performers.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then when you know, most relationships start with this romantic idealization phase, and but then they shift to this struggle for independence, one more realistic phase.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: And when that happens and conflict occurs, uh people who are avoiders, they just want to fix problems.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: They want to they problem solve because if I can just fix the problem for you, you'll stop emoting, you'll stop being sad or you'll stop being upset, and then I won't have to, I won't have to deal with that.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because the definition of empathy is I know what it feels like for you, because I know what it feels like for me.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: But if I don't go there with my emotions, I'm not gonna go there with someone else's emotions.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they they want the quick fix, they want people to, you know, be okay again.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and if that doesn't work, then they just think, ah, they'll get over it like I get over it.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so they'll, you know, go spend more time at the gym or go to work or go work on the car in the garage waiting on the other person to get over it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's I just I have to tell you why I'm laughing so much because I really hope my kids don't listen to this.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: I really want them to go, that's not her.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and and and you know what?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, you know, oftentimes it's done with the best intentions.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: We think, you know, let me, you know, this is res we think this is resiliency.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, don't think that just you know, push through it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be okay.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we should have started off this episode by saying, like, disclaimer, nothing was done on purpose.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_03: We all did our best, but somehow along the way, because of our upbringing, we kind of started creating these habits and patterns.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: But no, everybody, everybody, you're off the hook.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because we're gonna we're gonna realize that we can work through and work around and improve our patterns and behaviors and styles.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: This is not about blaming.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: This is totally about explaining.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's explain what happens, it's not about blaming parents for awful, but we need to understand what happened and and where they come from.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's the avoider, right?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: That now there's two anxious attachment styles, and so I'm gonna explain them both.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: They'll start with the pleaser.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the pleaser kid grows up in home, where they learn to manage a parent's emotions.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: They typically have a parent who uh gets angry and outbursts, and that scares them.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Or they have a parent who is very critical, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: If they get an A minus, the parent will say, Well, how come you didn't get an A?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or they'll have a parent who is very highly anxious, that uh uh classic helicopter parent who doesn't let the child explore, or they might even have a parent who's chronically depressed.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: So what happens is this kid learns to soothe their parent rather than their parents soothing them.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: They become the good kid, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: They don't act out, they try and predict their parents' mood or or soothe their parent proactively, like I'm gonna, you know, so I'm gonna get the chores done, I'm going to walk the dog, you know, because I don't want my parent to be stressed.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because when the parent gets stressed, they feel anxious on the inside.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, what they're doing is they're calming their anxiety by doing this.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this person grows up, goes into adulthood, learning to do that, learning to calm other people down.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: So they check people's emotional temperatures.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: They'll check in with, hey, how are you doing?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Are you okay?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Anything I can do for you?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you need right now?
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: You ask this person, you know, where do you want to go eat?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll say, I don't know.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you want to go?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_04: Where do you want to go?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: And they think, well, I don't, I don't care.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care either.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: But often that's not really true.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's that they don't know.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because in order to know our likes and preferences, we've got to explore them.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: But if they gave in during childhood, they don't really know what they are.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then other times they may say, Well, I want you to be happy.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not true either.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: They don't want other people to get upset because when other people get upset, they feel that anxiety inside, so they please and appease and they lose themselves in relationships.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: They can become rescuers because they get so stressed and anxious at watching other people struggle.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: They can't, they become codependents.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then when it comes to conflict, they they give in, they fawn, they freeze and they fawn, they give in just because they want the peace.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, healthy relationships are balanced, so that's not good in the long term, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: And eventually this person in midlife can really, you know, get tired of giving and become quite stubborn at that point uh and want to leave the relationship.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: But it usually, if if that happens, it usually takes many gears years of giving and giving and giving.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: I can't stop smiling because I'm like, check.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: There's like that's why I'm saying like every one of these, there's everyone listening is gonna go, that's me.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, that's me.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: But okay, keep going.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's gonna hear themselves in one of these.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, here's the other anxious attachment style.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: This is the vacillator.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And my book called this the vacillator, right?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: This kid grows up in a home where they get some attention and connection, but it's not on their terms, and they're made to wait on it.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: So they may have a parent whose connection depends upon the parent's mood.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So when the parent is in a good place emotionally, they're connecting, but when they've had a bad day, they're not connecting.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're irritable, they're not quite present.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or it might be the parents' physical availability.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Now, there's a lot of divorced parents out there, so there's a lot of custody situations.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes one parent is more absent than another parent, lives out of town, maybe.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, sometimes it's the parent's job.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: Parents travel for work or they work shift work.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we need emergency responders and they typically work shift work, and we also need the military, and that involves deployments.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so this kid gets attention, connection, they enjoy, but then they're made to wait on it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in the waiting, they feel unseen, unknown, misunderstood, and they get mad.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: These are the protesters.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we do two things with our emotions.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: We talk them out or we act them out.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And the vacillator acts them out, they sulk, they pout, they outburst, they criticize, they withdraw, and they're hoping that their parent will pick up and see that they're upset and fix the situation, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Attune to them more accurately.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: The parent either can't do that, or they they, you know, they can't manage their own moons, moods very well.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: They can't change the custody situation, or it's difficult to change a work situation.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: So this kid grows up, goes into adulthood with their longing for connection turned on high.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when they meet people, the dating phase is all about time, attention, connection.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's amazing for them, right?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: They love that.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: They live for this, you know, uh thrill of connecting with others.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's idealistic in the dating phase, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: And but they can uh share too much too soon, and they can miss red flags and get uh deep into relationships very quickly without really knowing the other person because they idealize the other person, they build a picture in their minds of who the person is and they convince themselves of that.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Then real life sets in and they get let down, they get made to wait, conflict occurs, and then they feel like they've uh been duped and then they get mad and they do what they did as kids, they sulk, they pout.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's designed to get the other person to see I'm hurt, come after me.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: But what happens is the protests are hurt for and the person doesn't want to come after them.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or if they do, the vasculator doesn't like that, they've had to ask for it.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: So they may say something like, Well, too little, too late, don't worry about it, leave me alone, or you shouldn't have done it in the first place.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: So they can reject the effort, which leaves their spouse disheartened, uh and then they don't get what they want.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: So then they feel this deep despair, and then the only way they man to manage their pain after that is to detach.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll say, I'm done.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, and like don't, you know, don't worry about it.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I will do it myself.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or sometimes you get this big I'm I'm done, where it's like, you know what?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's get a divorce, or with friendships, or sometimes they can just cut family members or friends off because they're so hurt, they feel their emotions so deeply, they're so hurt by them.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're just this is egregious, and they'll they'll cut people off.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then they move on looking for that next connection.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and they they mistake intensity for intimacy, is what they do, and that's why they get in so quickly.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it ultimately it's set it sets them up for disappointment because they idealize.
• 17:45
  unknown: Got it.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that was my attachment style.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I know.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's painful to think about it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was wondering if you were going to talk about that at all, but I mean, I we can keep going, but I I've watched so much of you and read already so much that I know that you're that, but we can keep going.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm growing, I'm in recovery, I'm recovering.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: I actually, and we'll talk about the good news after this.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: I've lost a lot of these triggers.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, fantastic.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Learning to become secure.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about the last one here.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, the last two attachment styles actually come from the same home, and it's called disorganized attachment and research.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so these homes are dangerous.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: They have a parent who neglects the child, or they have a parent who abuses the child or exposes the child to abuse.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: They might not be the abuser, but they may have a boyfriend or or or someone who comes into the home and exposes the child to abuse.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so now animals run from danger.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but primates, monkeys, apes, humans, we don't just run from danger, we actually run to a protector.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, what happens when the person who is dangerous is also the person who's supposed to be a protector.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: We get stuck.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: We have these two systems that work against one another, our attachment system and our safety system.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we want and and we don't know what to do.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's called disorganized attachment because when researchers watch these kids with their parents, they don't know what to do.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: They run away and then they run toward and then they run away, and then they run towards called approach-avoid behavior.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And this is exactly actually the dynamics that occur when the a betrayal happens in a marriage, is you know, you don't know whether to push away from the person or go toward the person, and it's highly, highly conflicting.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so these uh people can either develop a mix of the attachment styles because they try everything and and nothing really works, or they bounce back and forth in custody of different family members, different foster homes, and they have different attachment figures in those caregivers.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Or if abuse is pervasive, um, they can get actually go one of two ways, which is what Mylan and Kay Yorkovic wrote the book, How We Love that I read, observe that they can become a controller or a victim because they learn that relationships are like this, they're all one up, one down.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's in charge and the other one submits.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Someone's an abuser and the other one takes the abuse.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so the the controller, when they get old enough, big enough, and strong enough, they say, Well, I'm not going to be in this position anymore.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to be in this position in a relationship.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so they they, I'm not saying all controllers are abusers, but they they're controlling that they control their environment to stay safe, to keep it predictable, because unpredictability meant danger.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they control their environment by controlling people.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Or they go the other way and the victim learns, you know what, I I can't stop abuse.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm helpless.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: They have something called learn helplessness.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: And they say, but, but you know, I can reduce the frequency if if I, you know, just try and stay under the radar.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: If I just, you know, if it just happens, then it will be gone after that, and then I'll be okay.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so um they stay in that role.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And these two often find one another in adulthood, and we know that that there's a cycle of abuse that people get into.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not that the the victim wants to be abused, um, but they they it's familiar.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's familiar.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they find one another, and even when you offer the per this person the way out, they they might not get out, or if they do get out, they run into the arms of someone else.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, think about Jenny and Forrest Gump.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Almost everybody's seen Forrest Gump.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: She just, you know, she was abused as a child, she just ran from man to man to man.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And Forrest rescued her, and she just got into another bad situation over and over again because it was familiar.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that those are the five insecure attachment styles.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Question How early in life uh do these patterns develop?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: They begin right away.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, these these patterns can start to begin in utero.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: The baby is connected to their mother in utero.
• 21:44
  unknown: Okay.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you're feeling, you know, you're feeling everything that your mother is feeling.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we know that if there's a traumatic pregnancy, that can have an impact on a child's brain development.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: So this is all about neurodevelopment.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this attachment, there's 80 years of research in attachment and the neuros.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Science backs all of this up.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: So this is about how a baby's brain develops.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: In the first years of life, the predominance of blood flow is on the right side of the brain.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we are wired for emotional connection.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's the emotional part of the brain.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's our first language is picking up facial expressions and picking up tone of voice and things like that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we become responsive to that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so we we develop strategies or reactions, you know, whether our parent is meeting our needs or not meeting our needs.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, you can actually uh researchers can observe these attachment styles as early as one year of age, they can see them forming.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it begins right away, and it and it follows us throughout childhood.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Humans have the longest attachment phase, the longest phase of with parents of any animal on this planet.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's significant.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: So for about the best part of two decades, we get um programmed, attachment is programming.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: We get programmed for what relationship is like or what we or what we should expect from relationships, right?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then we carry that forward into our adult relationships.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they and they wreak havoc because here's the relationship math.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: It takes two secure attachments if you want to have a securely attached relationship.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: You can't take two insecure attachment cells, put them together, and think they're gonna securely bond.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: They don't, that's the whole point.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: They don't mesh well together.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Two secure attachments don't mesh?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: No, two insecure attachments.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: To insecure, yes, sorry.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: They don't mesh well together.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that causes problems.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's typically the root cause of problems in marital relationships.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: People argue about, you know, um, just the you know, the most minor of things, you know.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, how come you're not ready in time?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're always late, or you know, you don't help me with the cleanup of the dishes.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and really it's about a perception of uh feeling abandoned or being made to wait, or you know, you don't listen to me of not being heard.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: And usually there's a wound there in childhood.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: But that it but that sits in our subconscious, we're not aware of it, and then we get triggered in adulthood, in our adult relationships, and we react in very predictable ways.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: So in your book, and as well just now, you mentioned the parental attunement and the importance of it.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I really want you to elaborate on that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: I found that was one of those things that I was like, okay, we need to talk about attunement.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: That is definitely something that's more nuanced, but let's talk about what that means.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: So most people, if you haven't heard of the word attunement, you could probably figure it out.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like being in tune with someone, okay?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, attunement is the measuring stick of attachment.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's how researchers measure uh a parent and a child's attachment when they're observing them, is how attuned is a parent?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: So attunement is about can I pick up on somebody's behaviors to understand their internal state and know what they need to resolve that internal state.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So all of our behaviors are driven by our emotions and feelings, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we'll we'll interchange those words often, but you know, emotions are I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm mad.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Feelings are bodily feelings.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: We we call emotions feelings because we feel them in our body, but we also have physical needs like hunger and thirst.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I can be happy and be hungry, I can be sad and be hungry.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: So emotions and feelings drive our behaviors to get corresponding needs met.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm if I'm looking in the fridge, I feel hungry.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I need food, right?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm searching for food.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: But when I get food, I stop, I that satisfies my hunger, I stop searching for it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a corresponding need.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Same thing with emotions, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: If if a little if I'm a kid and I'm hiding under the bed, I feel scared.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my need is safety or security or protection because the more safe I feel, the less fearful I feel, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the more fearful I feel, the less safe I feel.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: So when an attuned parent can pick up on a child's emotion uh behaviors to understand their emotions and they invite them into connection.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: They they validate that makes sense, they empathize.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so sorry you're feeling that way.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: That must be really hard, right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: They encourage, they engage, they explore, tell me more about how that hurts, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that they do they do what you're doing with me right now.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: People are watching you, you're making eye contact, you're nodding your head, like it looks like you're listening, you're getting what I'm saying.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then they comfort and they meet the corresponding need.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And but they also help the child develop language for what's happening on the inside.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if I can have language for what's happening on the inside and also learn how to link those to corresponding needs, I more likely get my needs met.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: You do two things with our emotions.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: We talk them out, we act them out, we verbalize or we dramatize.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if I'm sulking and pounding, you got to guess what's wrong with me, what's going on with Mark.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: But if I can say to you, Sherry, I feel really sad right now, can you give me a hug?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or I'm feeling really unheard, and I just need you to listen to me.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now you know what's going on, and now you know what I need.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why they most likely get more likely get their needs met than other people.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: And they look for other people who are like them, and that's how they end up in secure relationships.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily a conscious thing, it's just that they get programmed this way, and so that's their programming, and that's familiar for them.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: I have so many things going on in my head about raising my kids right now, but it's like I don't want to make this about me.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm like, oh, I remember that time and I did this and I didn't do that, and oh, but anyway.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, okay, so let's talk about the parent-child um attachment dynamic because that actually fascinates me.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know this is a lot like your book is a lot about relationships, but I think you know, our audience is parents struggling with their adult children.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so I kind of want to focus on the parent-child dynamic.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, why is it so important to under for parents to understand their attachment style with their children?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, it's equally important for the adult children, like they could be actually running out to buy your book because they have to understand their attachment styles with their parents.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's the symbiotic dance.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I kind of want to really talk about the importance of understanding the dynamic.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, this is good.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want people to understand that my book is not uh, it's not uh exclusively for couples.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've not written it that way.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's for everybody.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: It depends on whatever relationship you're having, a friendship, struggles with people at work, uh an adult child, an adult child who is struggling with their parent.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's it's written for anybody.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it's it's not a relationship book in in that and a romantic relationship book, although it will help you with that too, right?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so research shows that in order to, you know, if we if we don't learn a secure attachment uh style in childhood, we can earn a secure attachment style in adulthood.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's the language.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so earn is it's gonna be work.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta do some work on this.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: And the research says, okay, in order to earn a secure attachment style, you've got to develop a coherent narrative.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: This these are the this is the research language.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, coherent means something makes sense.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Narrative is story.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: So by making sense of my childhood story and understanding what attachment is and how I've been shaped, I can see where I fit in here.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is why it's really important for people to understand this about themselves, because you know, this is how I was.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I knew that certain things bothered me.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: I knew I was reactive in certain ways, and I didn't like the way that I reacted.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I would promise myself, every year for about 15 years is the beginning of my book.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: I promise myself I'm I'm gonna work on this this year.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I did it with all the best of intentions, and I loved in the way that I thought, you know, I'm supposed to love.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I I made it's not like I didn't make any progress, but I made minimal progress, right?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: Because I didn't know why I was being triggered.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just kept expecting other people would adjust to me.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but when I understood this stuff, I realized oh, there are actually attachment wounds underneath here.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm prone to feeling abandoned and rejected and misunderstood and shame.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: These are all things that I wouldn't have thought about myself.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have made connections to.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought I don't have any abandonment, but it's perceived abandonment, it's perceived rejection.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And when when it's revealed to you, you can see it.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Once you see it, you can understand it, right?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: You can't change something that you're not aware of.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to first become aware of it.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: 100% these three stages, uh, you know, develop insight, become more aware, and then show it to practice.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's not just enough to know, you know, diet and exercise make us physically fit and strong.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: You actually got to go to the gym and you gotta, you know, gotta eat the right foods and you've got to pick your portion size, right?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And how many people actually do that?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we got to do practice work too, but we first got to become aware.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we can become aware as a parent to understand our attachment style and how that shaped our parenting, um, we can go to our adult kids and we can say to them, hey, listen, you know, I'm finding some stuff about myself and I'm realizing that even though I had the best of intentions, I may have done things that hurt you and harmed you emotionally and intentionally.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I want to acknowledge that and I want to hear about it.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to have a conversation.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: I remember this happened.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Tell me how you felt in that moment, or what are things that you remember from your childhood that you want to share with me, right?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when you do that, what you're doing is you're inviting a conversation, right?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: You're helping them develop their coherent narrative, you're helping them make sense of their childhood story, and you're providing actually an opportunity for a reparative experience.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_04: I love this.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: We need to have repair.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: We need that's how our neuropathways change is actually through reparative experience.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: So as you do that, uh um, you you know, you you develop that language.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And as you attune to them as the parent now, even if you want to tune before when they were growing up, you attune to them now.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: You empathize, you validate.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and again, this is about even if even if the way that they remember it is not the way that you remember it.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is about understanding, not about agreement.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Most people in conversations is like, I'm getting, I'm trying to get you to see the way that I see it.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and I need to prove to you so that you agree with me.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we get stuck here, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: But we can listen for understanding rather than for agreement.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's how empathy occurs.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because I can understand how you feel uh without agreeing with your perspective.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I can but I can say, well, I given your history, I can see why that bothered you and I understand why you reacted in that way.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: And when we when we do that, when we can show empathy and understanding and validation, people calm down, they they're less likely to say hurtful things to try and grab your attention or or raise their voice because they feel like they're not being heard.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: And they kind of slow down and they calm down.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you model that for them, right, we learn by modeling they're more likely to do that for you.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it so it's a reprogramming that we have to do.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And if you are an adult child and you figure this stuff about yourself, yes, you can go to your parents.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think what what we you know what I would say is that don't go to your parents unless you're um unless you're prepared for the worst case scenario.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because they may be very defensive, like, no, like I did the best I can.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: You can't do it.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just give them your book.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they have to give your book first and then they can have the discussion.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, but I mean, if you have, I mean, many parents do sometimes that but we're better grandparents than we are parents, because you know, the first time around, you we don't have a manual, right?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've designed this actually to be a manual, but we don't have a manual.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: We just do what we've learned to do.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second time around, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, like it's you start to think about stuff.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so there are many parents who are better grandparents than they are parents.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's and it's you know, it's just I've learned, right?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes you may have a parent who is more open.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can say, hey, I'm discovering these things about myself, I want to ask you a couple of questions about me as a child.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: How was I as as a child?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: That may inform some, or if you ask about significant events, because there may be events that you don't remember, especially in the pre-verbal years, between the age of zero to three, it's called the preverbal years, because we don't really get language uh until age one, you have about five words, age two, you maybe have about 50 words.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then even then, between the ages of two and three, once the brain has finally been able to develop that connection where a human can see themselves in time, we actually don't remember between the age of two and three, because there's something called uh there's a global phenomenon called childhood amnesia, where nobody remembers that part of their childhood, right?
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: But we all but we do form so we have to have language for narrative memories, but we form something called implicit memories, which are emotional memories.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes things can happen to us as a kid, and and you know, in adulthood, we've got this underlying feeling, emotion, and we don't know because we don't have any story to put to it.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: You got knocked over by a car or something like that.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: It was really scary.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this happened to you, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: It helps you make can help you make sense of, oh, that's that underlying feeling of anxiety that I've been carrying with me.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because we learn that we we carry that and we hold it in our bodies.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: You your body doesn't remember our bodies are time machines, it remembers everything.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: What signs um would show up, let's say, when the parent-child relationship is stranged, uh stranged, not stranged, when it's strained or like clashing.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: What are what are the telltale signs that this is going on?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, as you understand more about your attachment style that I have in this book and and the different triggers, you'll be able to become aware of you know the different triggers each attachment style has and and and how they react.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you can when you can see, when you can know it, you start to see it happening.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: But again, the the telltale sign of conflict really is is um is lack of attunement, like we were talking about.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's lack of being able to have a conversation.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Being able to just to connect with one another and listen and hear one another out.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: So so that that's the telltale sign here is how well can you do that?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: How well can you listen to things that you don't like or that you don't agree with, and can you stay engaged?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now in my I'm gonna talk about Milan and Kay's book here, How We Love, which is the book that I learned.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: They focus primarily, that's focused more on a couple's dynamic.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: So they focus on what they call core patterns.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: What happens when two different attachment styles come together, an avoider and a vacillator, or a vacillator and the pleaser, because they react in different ways, you know, when they come together, it produces a predictable pattern.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can see the pattern, you can start to understand it and and and you can learn to overcome it.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they they outline a tool called the comfort circle, which is all everything that I've been talking about.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: How do we listen for understanding?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so they out they prescribe listener-speaker routes.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: One person is the listener and the other person's the speaker.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a way that we can speak that encourages someone to listen, and there's a way that we can listen that encourages someone to speak.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: If we can learn to use, you know, I statements and express what is actually happening on the inside of us, you know, I feel not like I feel like you always do this, right?
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's not actually a feeling statement.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I feel unheard when you interrupt me.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's a feeling statement.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, if we can make it more subjective, people are more likely to be engaged.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, if and if we can, you know, explore and find out more, empathize and validate.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: We we're gonna have a good conversation.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, and and here's what I will say too.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: I was talking to someone about this earlier on with a couple, and they said, Oh, we went to a therapist, our last therapist just told us to get a divorce because we were incompatible.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and here's but the definition of compatibility when you look it up in the dictionary is two things that can exist despite um differences.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's the definition.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: So despite differences.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: So most people, you know, especially in romantic relationships, we think of compatibility as, you know, if you like what I like, then we're compatible.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an outdoors person, and if you are, we're compatible.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: I like dogs.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you like dogs, then we're compatible.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not that compatibility is about can we coexist with one another?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: So truly compatible people can uh take turns, they can share, they can negotiate, they can compromise, right?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: They can take accountability, they can forgive, they can offer grace, they can listen to understanding, even when they disagree.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's compatibility, that's coexisting despite differences.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is really important, Mark, because I'm you know, and I'm I'm working with parents, and you know, we're not all we're not always given the kid that we're always compatible with.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of our children they push our buttons, but the the the challenge and the gift is to learn how to connect with them in spite of our differences.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's why I love what you're saying.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kind of like, it's like a warm, cozy blanket because everything you're saying is what I really believe in and preach so much.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: So it's just great.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm I have my courses on now, and my parents are they're gonna be listening to this and going.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: She's been talking about that.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_03: She's been talking about connecting and empathic listening and validating and active, all of that.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's so it's so wonderful.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just love the fact that you're just everything you're saying is just it's just so so much truth in what you're saying.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: It really is.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's so helpful because you're not always gonna, you're not always gonna feel like you're one with your kid.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, and I keep going back in my mind, it's always about the adult child relationship, but I love the fact that you don't have to always be compatible.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna love them and you're gonna find a way to to make it work, you know.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: You don't you don't have to be the same, but you can be compatible in the sense of can we coexist with differences?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and when we say, and and you know, kids do push our buttons.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Why do kids push our buttons?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're with they're attached, we're attachment figures to them, we're attached closely to them.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: People will say it's like, I can go to work and I'm fine, but when I come home to my spouse, like you agreed to get me, right?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, why?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're attached to them.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's start, it starts with our attachment, it starts with our attachment to our parents, and then we grow up and we get married, and then it goes this way because then we meet someone and they're our person, right?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then we we have our children and then we start to program them, right?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's no one like our parents, our spouses, and our kids who will trigger us.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And most people will use this word, like I'm triggered or I'm my buttons are being pushed, but they don't pause long enough to say, what is being triggered in me?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, right.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: A trigger is an association in the present to something significant, a wound from the past.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's what a trigger is, that the brain works by association.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: It just links things together and it and it works as shortcuts.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is familiar to what happened before.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is how you felt, this is what you believed, this is how you reacted to stay safe, do that again.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's how the brain works.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it works in these subconscious processes.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: But but when we pause long enough to say, well, what is being triggered in me?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: If we can develop something that I outline in the book called the observing self, where you can pause for long enough to say, um, you know, what am I feeling right now?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: What is happening around me, or what just happened?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: How am I reacting to deal with my needs going unmet or to try and get my needs met?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: And where in my history did I learn that from?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: You can start, that's another way to build your coherent narrative.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: You can pause and you can start to make sense of this.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: I do this in couples therapy, where when I do the comfort circle in couples therapy, uh, you know, we talk about we start with talking about a conflict, and then we go to, well, what were you feeling in that moment?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then how did you react?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: What were your behaviors?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then we go to, well, did you feel that way in childhood?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it is unbelievable how many times people will start to talk about their upbringing and their connection with their parents and how they felt.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: And all of a sudden they start to make these connections.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I felt like that in childhood.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then I did this same thing in childhood, and they start to realize this is a reminder in the present to something from the past.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not like what you're doing is not bothersome to me, but it's turbocharged by these feelings from the past flooding into the present, right?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like home invasion robbers.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: They just push their way into the front living room of your brain, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And and they set you off and they trigger you.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then we react in these very, very predictable ways.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can, if you can start to see that, then I was able to start to overcome this stuff.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's the help.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's the good news.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's the great news.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, definitely.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk for a minute about that one secure attachment style.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: I just I think it's important.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: I want, how does having a secure attachment style help a young adult to become, you know, confident and resilient and able to develop the problem solving still skills that will allow them to, you know, launch independently into adulthood?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about that.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_03: For those very few of us who have that secure attachment, what does that look like?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And let's qualify it too.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Secure attachment.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean you're a perfect individual.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: You had a perfect parent.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's all it means is that when you're securely attached, all it means is that you more often than not respond rather than react.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: You more often than not behave with secure secure connection than insecure connection.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, if you're for 51% of the way there, there's still a long way to go, right?
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: So secure attachments rated on a spectrum.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if we learn in childhood, it just means that our parent more often than not responded in it in an attuned way.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't mean that you had a perfect parent or you're a perfect individual.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so so everybody has growth, by the way.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: That that's what I'm saying.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody can discover something about themselves.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: We all have triggers, there's no perfect childhoods, and there's a lot of things that interrupt cycle of bonding, by the way, that is no that are no one's fault.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, babies are born premature, so then they got to stay in the NICU.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, siblings are born with disabilities, so parents' attention goes primarily to to to to the more needy child, right?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you know, parents have disabilities.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the the child you might have a disability, all kinds of stuff interrupts the cycle of bonding.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: That it that is no one's fault.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: But we all have something that happens to us.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: We all got to be able to make sense of what is going on.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we all have a way that we can grow, even if we are, you know, quote unquote securely attached.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me your question again if I didn't answer it.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was just gonna say, I don't know if you answered the question, but I'm gonna Okay.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um I just want to talk about what a secure attachment looks like for a young adult that is, you know, developing okay, that's right.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: That's I had thoughts about that.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, in my book, I told you.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't want to make you feel bad.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, he didn't answer it, but I'll go on.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but you in my book, I outlined stages of development uh that Eric Erickson, who is a very well-known uh psychologist, came up.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: He came up with different stages, you know, of uh of development, right?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: So zero to one, and then one to three, and then uh three to you know, eight or something like that, right?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's different stages that happen, and each of the stages build upon one another, and we're supposed to accomplish different things, right, in each of those stages, right?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Trust versus mistrust, guilt versus autonomy or shame, industry versus inferiority, uh, identity versus role confusion, intimacy versus isolation, those are the first five stages here, right?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: But and if if we if we have an attuned parent who gets us through those things, if we can build trust, right, if we can build competence, if we can build um uh impulse control, if we can learn how to self-regulate, it you know, these are all learned things.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: And we go into adulthood with the ability to do that.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't mean we do it every single time, right?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: But we we more often than not can do that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and that's what secure, that's what secure attachment as an adult looks like.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, good.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we're gonna have a little fun with something.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I thought this would be interesting.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: And because again, I want I want parents to kind of just start thinking about where who they are, what their style is, and so bringing it more relatable.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: Avoider, pleaser, vacillator, controller, victim.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm gonna I'm I'm curious how these uh specific parents' styles influence the way they respond to their child's emotions or behaviors.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, what I'm gonna do, play a little game.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna ask you a question about each style and how they would handle a specific or general situation with their child.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right, one for each.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: If you're an avoider, anybody who's an avoider out there, um, what are some of the challenges that this creates for a child who needs emotional connection?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: So what what are the challenges of a parent?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, the no, the challenges for the child.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the child needs emotional connection, but their parent is an avoider.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so okay.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: So the avoidant parent primarily dismisses.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're fine.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not really that bad.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, come on, you know, be brave.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so so they get dismissed in there with with their emotions.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's so the overarching message is, you know, hurry up and grow up or stop feeling, or you have to deal with this by yourself, there's no one coming to help.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: But and so they they learn to dismiss their own emotional state and they push it down.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, but what about the other parent?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: If they if one parent is the avoider and said, you know, be brave or grow up or you'll get over it, uh, can they would wouldn't that child turn to the other parent who might be different and get their needs met there?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they might, depending on what attachment style their other parent is.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so so they may get their needs met from the other parent, right?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: They may have an uh the other parent may be more attuned than the other one.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: This is why, you know, attachments rated on the spectrum.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: We can be mildly, moderately, or very highly like one of these attachment styles.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: Or we can have a blend of a couple of different ones.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: So a young adult can say, oh, you know, I really needed my parent, but they were more of the avoider type.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I went to my other parent to get my emotional needs met.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: As long as their parent was available, right?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: Usually, you know, both parents were at school or something like that.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, they're not usually available 100% of the time.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let me also qualify this too, is that you can also develop an avoidant attachment style, not necessarily because your parent was primarily an avoider, like it it could happen in a single parent situation.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: So if you I I've had clients with with this situation where you know, a parent died or wasn't involved, right?
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so single mom, see, or it could be single dad, I was a single dad for a while, or so single mom, but she works two jobs because she works really hard, because she's got to um, you know, she's got to have stable income.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so that kid then has to get up and get themselves ready and get themselves off to school or come home and make their dinner by themselves.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't have anybody there available for them and they have to perform, they have to meet their own needs.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes that it occurs in that way, and so no one's available.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we don't, if we don't get on it, remember emotions indicate needs.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if no one's available for us, if we try and stop needing, we actually can, it's a way to self-soothe and not feel.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's what so it's characterized by suppression or dismissal of feelings.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm gonna be okay.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I you know, try not to think about it.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the uh a void as reaction to emotions.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I just want to say this about myself.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that my parents divorced, my mother and father were very different people in terms of their attachment styles.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: And what I didn't get from my, I knew I wasn't getting what I needed from my mother.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and my father moved away.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: So he went, you know, uh Canadian American.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: So he moved, he was American, he moved back to the US.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I got to a point in my life where I wanted to have a connection with my father so that I could get the needs met that weren't being met by my mother.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just uh, you know, I'm speaking to, you know, let's say the adult child that says, you know, we have to be more resourceful.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: We can't, I mean, when we're young, we have no choice.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: We are we, you know, there's that we're we're beholden to our parents.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: But at some point, you know, young adults, uh teens can recognize the fact that their parent isn't giving them everything that they need, and they can go and find that that connection with the other parent and make the effort, you know.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I sort of asking that question is that I I understand that it's a you know, there is so much, so much happens with your parents, but there's two people involved, you know.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I just I I want to make sure that it's also good when parents are going through divorce not to not to sever the tie um with your child and the other parent because they they need they will need to have to develop that relationship and develop those attachments to that other parent.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and but sometimes no, it's good.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes other adult figures can become attachment figures for a period of time.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's I know people who we've done therapy with people who had coaches who were just really encouraging to them, you know, when their parents couldn't be, or or a teacher, or sometimes it's a youth pastor, somebody who really was more attuned and came alongside them and really kind of encouraged them.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that that was kind of like their go-to person, the person who believed in them, right?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and they built that connection, you know, from that person.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: That person was able to get, you know, you're that that person was able to be significant, take a significant role to help program them.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: That okay, I'm not getting this from my parents, but there's someone else involved in my life.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I can see that relationships can be trusting.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: My needs can get met by an adult and by others.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, next one.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a pleaser who steps in too quickly or does too much for their struggling, um, their struggling adult, does this prevent that adult child, that child from learning responsibility and developing self-confidence?
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you're absolutely sorry, I got you aye.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't even finish your sentence.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, I was reiterating.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_04: It's good, it's good.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_04: I love the fact that you said absolutely.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh, okay.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because in in in order to develop resiliency, so so resiliency is another way to say resiliency is bounce back ability.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now somebody avoiders will say will think resiliency is like when something just doesn't bother you, right?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, but it's kind of like this hardness, right?
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Stones are hard.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, and and when you throw them, they hit the ground, they chip.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but stress balls are resilient because you can squeeze those things and it will just bounce back.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: It'll just reform its shape, right?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what uh that that that that's what um resilience is.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Last moment, yeah, that's what resilience is, it's being able to bounce back, it's being able to actually feel our emotions and manage them and recover again, right?
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you rescue someone, you rob them of the opportunity to see if they can struggle and then recover again.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and so then they they that they you actually rob them of the opportunity of of learning confidence because we learn confidence when we can do something and we can uh and we can learn from it and we can accomplish it.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it everything is an opportunity to learn from, right?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: When we get something wrong, we can say, okay, well, uh, why did I get that wrong?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what should I do next time?
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_02: Or where did I fall short?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Or it gives me an opportunity to try again.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, when you rescue your kids, you rob them of that resiliency and and they become dependent upon you, right?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then they don't launch.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and here we are.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a so so parents have to ask themselves, why is it hard for me to stand on the sidelines?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I want to jump in and rescue?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: What is being triggered inside of you?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: You have to learn to manage your anxiety here.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: And and I will have parents who will make all kinds of excuses, but they they have my child has this disability.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, you know, look how they happened in life, what they were set up for.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like any parent would rescue their kid over and over again who was drug addicted so they wouldn't be on the street.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I mean, we're here at all.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: But really, what it is, is it's this inattention on the inside that they don't have a tolerance for.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes there really are hard situations that we have to watch a child go through.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, you know, I mean, in addiction recovery, somebody does have to hit bottom most of the time before they start to go up.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, otherwise they just end up in this cycle of relapse.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there are some people who will tell you, like, I had to be homeless before it kicked in.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and it's hard to watch that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_03: Clearly, the the adult that has become a pleaser was because of their childhood.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: But the problem is the buck has to stop there.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot do that with your your child because you will be debilitating them from their growth.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_03: So that's where the self-awareness comes in.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_03: You might have developed that people-pleasing attachment, but you cannot keep perpetuating it.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, okay.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: The vacillator who we're speaking to.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, how does your tendency to overreact and be emotionally unpredictable impact your child?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: So you'll you you you may, and and not every attachment style programs their child to be that same attachment style, by the way.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: So you if you you might program your child to be uh a pleaser.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, like uh I'm a reactive parent.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta settle and calm them down, and you know, they're idealists and I'm not doing this in the right way.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: So now I've got to be the good kid.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you might program them to be a pleaser, or you may just model behavior for them that they say, okay, this is how I react when I don't get my way, when things don't go right for me.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Vacillators tend to blame.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay they they blame and they defend, and that keeps the focus on others and away from from seeing their part in the pattern.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you know, they they uh you know, you might program your kid to sock pout protest behavior because that's what they see from you, how you learn to get your needs met.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you just program them, uh you know, they they learn the same thing by modeling.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, yeah, this is a common phrase, more is caught than taught, but it's absolutely true.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Say that again.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: More is caught than taught.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's uh confusing here.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that people pick up more on what you do than what you say.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, 100%.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: 100%.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, if you're a controller, how does your need to stay in charge affect your young adult's confidence and autonomy if you're always controlling?
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you're always controlling others, one people tend to resist uh control.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: So if you do that, now now we all have temper.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking about attachment programming.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: There are two different parts of us, right?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: There's a part of us that is nature, and there's a part of us that is nurture.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's a true, right?
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so somebody, some people are internal processes and other people are external processes, right?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: I gotta verbalize, I gotta talk it out.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: And other people are like, shh, I gotta think about this for a moment.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are introverts, some people are extroverts.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's just how you gain energy, right?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: You you're not if you're an extrovert, if you're an introvert, you're not gonna become an extrovert.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter how hard you try, right?
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or vice versa.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so these are like, you know, or sometimes our learning styles, visual or audible, or or kinesthetic, I that's kind of wired into you.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and also sensitivity to a certain degree is is wired into us.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: Some people there's a scale.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's certain parts about us that you know we are this way.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you have more of, you know, more of a stronger-willed kid, they they may push back on that control.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: People people resist efforts generally to be controlled or to be coerced.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so so you might create more of a strong-willed child.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're more independent, they want to do it themselves.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, no, I'm you need to do it in the way that I want to do it.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't want to do it in that way.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so you might create a resistance to you where it's like they're strong-wheeled to me.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_02: Really, it's like they're more of a kinesthetic learner, they're more independent, and they just they have a little bit more of a temperament to push back.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: But because you are trying to squeeze them, yeah, they're gonna resist.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is great because for the parent that wonders why their child is so resistant and pushes back, it's because you're you're controlling.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_03: So you need to let go so that they can come in.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's a push call.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or you make them victim-like, right?
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, I can't make decisions for myself, like I have to rely on someone else to do it for me.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, last one.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a victim style, how does feeling powerless or overwhelmed affect the way you communicate with your child?
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, now the the control and the victim that they're you know, I have a lot of compassion.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, it it is, you know, these kids had unsolvable problems.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_02: They had horrific childhoods most of the time.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not blaming or putting putting them down here.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they just have really hard childhood, and this is just kind of what they've been programmed on how to relate.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's dysfunctional.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, all the attachment styles are dysfunctional.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we're calling somebody a victim here, it's not to be derogatory about them, it's just kind of how you know that they're the way that they've learned to bond is very victim and passive like.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so, victims, because if if they're it, if they grow up in dangerous homes, sometimes you know, danger just can become normal.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: And they might not be good um assessors of danger.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so then they can expose their kids to danger because they either, you know, they don't see it very well, or they dissociate.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: They learn to check out mentally, right?
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a a uh a psychological defense mechanism just to check out and dissociate, yeah.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_02: So they can do that and they can expose their kids to um yeah, to situations uh that are harmful.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and it's and and nobody dissociates on purpose.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_03: But well, sometimes I do when I don't want to be so well dissociation, right?
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: Daydreaming is dissociation, right?
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, we can also say I want to daydream right now.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_02: But when when I what I'm saying is dissociation in terms of like a danger, like involuntary response, like freeze, like oh and check out.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody does that part on purpose.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: But we can become aware that we've lost periods of time.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've had people in therapy just check out in front of me and they just lose periods of time and come back again and like what happened, right?
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but do they say that they dissociated?
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you like how did they come?
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know that there are people that will say, I just dissociated, like I'm back, but I wasn't there for a bit because they're right.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Some people are more aware of it, like they're aware that they lost time, they're not aware of what happened.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's incumbent upon us to recognize that you know we are this way, and and we can and we can change that, and we should change that.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's and and we're responsible, even though we're not responsible for our pro our initial programming.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're responsible for our growth and development in adulthood.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_03: A hundred percent.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do you deal with parents in your practice that say, This is how I was raised?
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we know what we're saying, and we're we're almost coming to the end now, but you can break free from your own attachment patterns so that they either don't repeat with on your on their children or they can become the best version of themselves as a parent.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_03: Am I right?
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: You can.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's that's the that's the silver lining here.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that that's the beauty of it.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it wolf, that's exactly what I'm saying.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is how you were raised.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I think uh a bigger objection to that is this is my culture.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I addressed this uh briefly in the book that a culture is an external environmental influence.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, there are some cultures that lean more toward anxious attachment styles and some that lean more toward uh avoidant attachment styles.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_02: That is true, but just because the majority of people around me does this doesn't mean it's secure, right?
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: How babies all over the world develop, how human brains are nurtured is the same.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_02: So just because you were raised that way, just because your culture is that way, doesn't mean that that is secure.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: So we need to recognize these things about us and take responsibility.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: That that's called maturity.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, right?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maturity is is to take responsibility to be accountable.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, 100%.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_02: And to grow.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: Healthy things grow.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: We all we all have areas to grow in.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, if if you think you don't, um you got a lot of growing to do.
• 1:05:20
  unknown: Right.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: You've probably got you've probably got a lot of stuck relationships.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_03: We're all work in progress.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_03: None of us are done.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're not we're not cooked ever.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_03: So um I I always like to leave on a positive note.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, what do you wish every parent understood about their attachment style and the impact that it will have or has had on their adult child's life?
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I've said so much already.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think the encouragement that I would give is it's not your fault.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's not your fault.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: You mentioned this already.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: We don't choose our parents, yeah.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: We don't choose the environments that we grow up with, right?
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: It it's it's the parents' job to kind of to nurture us.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean that children don't know right or wrong and they don't act out.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm saying that the way that your attachment style was formed is not your fault.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, but it is your responsibility now and a doll to to recognize that and to fix it.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and the good news is you will find freedom in fixing it, you will heal.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's difficult, it is an insecure attachment, but you've got to pick your pain.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: You can pick the pain of being stuck, or you can pick the pain of growth.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: This one leads to freedom.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: I read that.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: This one leads to freedom.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_02: This one leads to the same thing over and over and over again.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and and you know, unhealthy relationship.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: So you got to choose.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: Mark, I really appreciate your sharing your your expertise with us today.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_03: I I think that a lot of parents will find this very interesting and will hopefully learn a lot from it.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll go out and buy the book because there's so much in your book.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm so not done with it yet.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna put up a picture of it, but thank you.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yes, so for anyone who wants to dive deeper, your your book will be linked in the show notes.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_03: This was an absolute pleasure, and thank you so much for joining me here on launch.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks to having me, Sherry.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_03: All right, hope we we stay in touch.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm still not sure what I am.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Mark.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_03: Take care.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thanks to having me on.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: I hope today's episode gave you valuable insights and actionable steps that will help you guide your young adult to launch successfully into adulthood.
• 1:07:37
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• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_03: Leaving a five-star review helps us reach more parents who are dealing with the same issues.
• 1:07:49
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• 1:07:58
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• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_03: Just click Launch Advice in the show notes and don't forget to email me your confidential question.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: And remember, no one ever said parenting is easy, especially when you're raising an adult.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to you soon.