Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Can an undertaker sell your body parts? You might want to check! 13 kids suffer parents' house of horrors

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Can an undertaker sell your body parts? You might want to check! 13 kids suffer parents' house of horrors · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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1:07
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace now online at crime online
1:11
Speaker 1: dot com and on syrius XM. Having just gone through
1:20
Speaker 1: my my dad going to heaven and then out of
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Speaker 1: the blue, completely unexpectedly, my husband's mother and father pass
1:32
Speaker 1: away within a few months of each other. All this
1:35
Speaker 1: happens in a twenty four month period. I I am
1:40
Speaker 1: overwhelmed trying to even think back on everything that happened,
1:47
Speaker 1: and trying to explain to the children, and just trying
1:52
Speaker 1: to process my father being gone, and then Mr and
1:57
Speaker 1: Ms Lynch, who I've known for so long and amazingly people.
2:01
Speaker 1: For all of you that have may be wondered, do
2:04
Speaker 1: you know my mother and father in law never said
2:08
Speaker 1: a cross word to me. Ever, they accepted me just
2:13
Speaker 1: the way I am exactly, never tried to tell me
2:17
Speaker 1: how to raise the twins. I can't say that from
2:19
Speaker 1: my mother, but I can say it from my mother
2:22
Speaker 1: and father in law, and I think about them every
2:26
Speaker 1: single day. So when I read and learn and began
2:31
Speaker 1: to investigate this case where a funeral home is running
2:37
Speaker 1: allegedly a side business selling human body parts and made
2:45
Speaker 1: so much money selling dead people's gold teeth, the owner's
2:49
Speaker 1: mother took the whole family to Disneyland. Are you kidding me?
2:57
Speaker 1: I just oh, I mean, see Grays, this is crime
3:02
Speaker 1: stories and I Am not going to rest until this
3:07
Speaker 1: case is resolved in a satisfactory manner to any of
3:13
Speaker 1: you that are listening right now. Have you ever lost
3:16
Speaker 1: someone so dear to you you can barely think about it? Well?
3:20
Speaker 1: I have many times. Straight out to John Limley, Crime
3:26
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, joining me along with Joseph Scott Morgan,
3:30
Speaker 1: forensics expert and Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
3:37
Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcock, lawyer and child advocate, and our death care
3:45
Speaker 1: law expert. Special guest joining me, Wendy Weener. Thank you
3:50
Speaker 1: everyone for being with us. First, to you, John Limley,
3:53
Speaker 1: please tell me I had the facts wrong. Unfortunately, you
3:57
Speaker 1: are absolutely correct, and I'd love to begin with one
4:00
Speaker 1: specific story involved in all this. It's the story of
4:05
Speaker 1: a man named Rex Dunlap. He was a frugal Colorado
4:09
Speaker 1: man seventy eight years old. He had been battling brain
4:12
Speaker 1: cancer and before he died in uh the man was
4:17
Speaker 1: able to save two hundred dollars on cremation by agreeing
4:21
Speaker 1: to pledge parts of his body to a company named
4:25
Speaker 1: Donor Services. This is a what's called a body brokerage
4:29
Speaker 1: operation that sells body. Okay, wait, wait, waite right there,
4:33
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, hold your horses. John Lemley I'm
4:38
Speaker 1: just visually imagining you know, Wendy. Now, I know this
4:43
Speaker 1: is this is not your area of expertise, but I
4:46
Speaker 1: want you to imagine with me a guy, an elderly
4:50
Speaker 1: guy who's trying to save money and decides to go
4:56
Speaker 1: with cremation to save two hundred dollars and donate his
4:59
Speaker 1: or Wendy, I'm just imagining that guy planning his own funeral. Nancy.
5:05
Speaker 1: That's uh, that's actually one of the touch points in
5:09
Speaker 1: this story, very very prevalent these days are the body
5:15
Speaker 1: donation companies. Uh. The story we're talking about this morning
5:19
Speaker 1: really touches onto uh major issues happening in the deathcare
5:24
Speaker 1: industry right now, which is, um, what to do with
5:29
Speaker 1: uh what is what are called recyclable uh? And uh
5:33
Speaker 1: what we're just speaking about right now, which is the
5:36
Speaker 1: body donation companies. Where Wendy, Wendy, you know how I
5:43
Speaker 1: feel about you and your daughters, and I guess you're
5:45
Speaker 1: I'll all your husband into that pot. We met in
5:48
Speaker 1: a swimming pool. She was barely dressed when I first
5:50
Speaker 1: met her. Okay, I'm just putting that out there, but
5:53
Speaker 1: Wendy Weener is one of this country's renowned deathcare law experts. Whendy,
6:00
Speaker 1: did you just call human parts recyclables? Did you actually
6:06
Speaker 1: say that? No? No, the recyclables that I'm referring to
6:10
Speaker 1: are what you mentioned earlier in the story, which is
6:12
Speaker 1: the the gold and the teeth and and other metal
6:16
Speaker 1: that comes from human remains. But what you're referring Okay,
6:19
Speaker 1: God bless you, God bless you. I'm so glad you
6:22
Speaker 1: did not refer to this poor man's heart as a recyclable,
6:24
Speaker 1: because I was going to do a backflip if I
6:27
Speaker 1: could still do one. Okay, when do you go ahead
6:29
Speaker 1: about the recyclables? I want to hear that. Hold on,
6:31
Speaker 1: John Lemley, I know you're chopping at the bit. Hold on,
6:34
Speaker 1: let's hear from so so two issues. UH. Let's talk
6:40
Speaker 1: first about the second issue that we were just speaking about,
6:43
Speaker 1: which is the body donation UH concept. It is very
6:49
Speaker 1: common these days for companies that are in this marketplace.
6:56
Speaker 1: The best term marketplace should be targeting families offering free
7:01
Speaker 1: cremation services in exchange for UH, the donation of the
7:06
Speaker 1: human remains UM. Once those human remains are donated, then
7:13
Speaker 1: there are some deathcare licensees that UH that do not
7:17
Speaker 1: provide UM what they've promised to the families. Uh and
7:21
Speaker 1: and as in this case, it looks like UM potentially
7:26
Speaker 1: at least, there's the allegation that the human remains or
7:31
Speaker 1: portions thereof, were sold for profit. Now, hold on, Wendy,
7:34
Speaker 1: you're starting to sound a little too much like a
7:36
Speaker 1: lawyer for my daste. Hold on a moment. You're telling
7:39
Speaker 1: me that they strike a deal with the soon to
7:42
Speaker 1: be deceased person where they give free cremation in exchange
7:46
Speaker 1: for recyclable such as gold teeth and metal implants, but
7:49
Speaker 1: then they don't live up to it. Note note they
7:53
Speaker 1: give free cremation in exchange for the actual human remains,
7:58
Speaker 1: and then those human room means are donated, sometimes for
8:02
Speaker 1: scientific and educational purposes, other times for oregan harvesting UM.
8:10
Speaker 1: Lots of different schemes and UM and and ballot programs
8:16
Speaker 1: that uh that do exist. But there are those occasions
8:20
Speaker 1: where licensees that have the human remains in their possessions
8:24
Speaker 1: are profiting from those human remains. Okay, something just doesn't
8:29
Speaker 1: seem right to me. Ashley Willcott and Joseph Scott Morgan.
8:33
Speaker 1: But I don't quite know what it is. But I
8:35
Speaker 1: know this, I know I don't like it. Now. Does
8:38
Speaker 1: that mean it's illegal? No, it does not. And I
8:42
Speaker 1: want organ harvesting and go ahead. People hate me, but
8:47
Speaker 1: I want stem cell research too, because my brother in
8:51
Speaker 1: law has been suffering with MS as long as I
8:54
Speaker 1: can remember now, and stem cell research is one of
8:58
Speaker 1: the only ways that he would be helped in my mind,
9:01
Speaker 1: among other advancements. But this organ harvesting, I like the idea,
9:07
Speaker 1: but somehow the way it's playing out doesn't seem exactly right.
9:11
Speaker 1: I smell something fishy. Okay, John Lamley, Crime Stories, investigative reporter.
9:15
Speaker 1: Let's just start at the beginning again. The frugal seventy
9:19
Speaker 1: plus year old agrees to have cremation in exchange for
9:23
Speaker 1: take it away, right Rex Dunlamp. This man in Colorado
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Speaker 1: agrees to pledge parts of his body to this company
9:31
Speaker 1: Donor Services that sells body parts for education and research.
9:36
Speaker 1: He paid the owner of the business, Megan has four
9:40
Speaker 1: hundred dollars to take his body. He left one specific request,
9:46
Speaker 1: one specific instruction. The glass eye that he had worn
9:50
Speaker 1: since he was a child an accident when he was
9:53
Speaker 1: a child should be removed and sent to his best friend.
9:57
Speaker 1: Now that friend was then to place a glass eye
10:00
Speaker 1: in an urn containing half of dunlap sashes and bury
10:04
Speaker 1: the urn on top of the grave of Dunlap's father
10:08
Speaker 1: and tell your ride Colorado. Now this shows Rex Dunlap
10:12
Speaker 1: had a great sense of humor because along with his
10:15
Speaker 1: ashes and the glass eye was to be a note
10:17
Speaker 1: reading here's looking at you. The rest of his ashes
10:21
Speaker 1: would be buried with Dunlap's mother. You know what, I
10:25
Speaker 1: love this guy. I love this guy. I love his
10:29
Speaker 1: sense of humor so much so, Ashley Wilcott, He clearly
10:37
Speaker 1: clearly was a deep thinker and soulful to come up
10:41
Speaker 1: with this. He wanted to be buried with his father,
10:45
Speaker 1: and he actually had a sense of humor about meeting
10:49
Speaker 1: his maker, and those are his wishes, right, ash all right,
10:54
Speaker 1: completely agree. Here's what's missing any respect for our decease.
10:59
Speaker 1: This in entire scenario, there's no respect for our decease.
11:05
Speaker 1: And that's why now it becomes a crime and the
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Speaker 1: way they've treated these last wishes. John Lemley, I still
11:12
Speaker 1: don't get the crime part. And the Disney the all
11:15
Speaker 1: expenses included Disneyland shrip the owner throws, So get me
11:20
Speaker 1: to the crime shore. This is a good time to
11:22
Speaker 1: point out that Megan Hess was running more than just
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Speaker 1: a body brokerage firm. Out of this very same facility,
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Speaker 1: she operated Sunset Mesa funeral home and crematory. This is
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Speaker 1: where the family of Rex Dunlap was told that the
11:38
Speaker 1: staff of Sunset Mesa could not find the glass eye
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Speaker 1: just a day or so after his death. Not only that,
11:47
Speaker 1: the employee who picked up the body and brought it
11:50
Speaker 1: to the facility claimed that the glass eye couldn't be
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Speaker 1: removed before Dunlap's head was severed, embalmed, and shipped to researchers.
12:00
Speaker 1: It's more, the company had no idea how to get
12:03
Speaker 1: in touch with the researcher who received the head. This
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Speaker 1: Sunset may say employees name is Shirley Coke, and she
12:12
Speaker 1: just happens to be the mother of the owner, Megan Hess. Now,
12:16
Speaker 1: after Hess was threatened with a lawsuit for losing the eye,
12:20
Speaker 1: she wrote the family a check for five hundred dollars,
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Speaker 1: a refund of the money that Dunlap had paid to donate.
12:27
Speaker 1: I tell all the five hundred dollars, I want the
12:30
Speaker 1: glass eye right to hey with the five d In
12:34
Speaker 1: the scheme of things, it didn't hurt Megan Hess one
12:37
Speaker 1: bit to part with this half a grand because she
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Speaker 1: was making big bucks selling off Rex Dunlap's body parts.
12:46
Speaker 1: And as you pointed out, even more astonishing is that
12:50
Speaker 1: this practice is not against the law in Colorado or
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Speaker 1: anywhere else in the US for that matter. So also,
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Speaker 1: let me understand this family true. Here we've got Megan
13:02
Speaker 1: Hess is the owner of Sunset mesa funeral home and
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Speaker 1: crematory in Colorado. Her mother is Cotch, Shirley Cotch. Now
13:15
Speaker 1: is it true that there are allegations that Cotch would
13:20
Speaker 1: pull teeth from the corpses to extract gold in the
13:24
Speaker 1: crowns or fillings, and would actually to sell them as
13:29
Speaker 1: she would actually show her collection of gold teeth. She
13:34
Speaker 1: would show off the collection, and she ended up taking
13:38
Speaker 1: the whole family to Disneyland on the gold teeth that
13:41
Speaker 1: they cashed in. I don't think that's what the donors
13:44
Speaker 1: had in mind. No One ex employees said she was
13:47
Speaker 1: especially troubled by the practices of Hess's mother, Shirley Cotch,
13:52
Speaker 1: who as we know, works at the facility. The former
13:56
Speaker 1: funeral homeworkers said that Cotch, who embalmed and dismembered body
14:00
Speaker 1: these pulled teeth from many of the corpses to extract
14:03
Speaker 1: the golden crowns and fillings. Uh. Cat showed this woman
14:07
Speaker 1: a collection of gold one day uh and said she
14:11
Speaker 1: sold a different batch the year before, and that was
14:15
Speaker 1: when she and her daughter, Megan Hess had taken the
14:18
Speaker 1: whole family to Disneyland in California on the gold that
14:22
Speaker 1: they cashed in. No. Oh, oh, that is hurting me
14:28
Speaker 1: to think that someone could possibly do that to my father. Oh,
14:32
Speaker 1: dear Lord in heaven. Oh, I don't want to hear that,
14:36
Speaker 1: but I've heard it now and I cannot unhear it.
14:39
Speaker 1: Is it true? Tell me what you think about this.
14:42
Speaker 1: Wendy Wiener, death care law expert. Wendy, there is also
14:48
Speaker 1: the problem, and again this is I don't know that
14:51
Speaker 1: this is illegal. I don't know that any of this
14:53
Speaker 1: is illegal. And all of these are allegations as of
14:57
Speaker 1: right now, as of yet unproved. This Hess person that
15:02
Speaker 1: owns Sunset Mas, a funeral home in crematory, allegedly also
15:07
Speaker 1: owns Donor Services that is a body broker operation and
15:12
Speaker 1: has a crematory. Both are all from the same building.
15:15
Speaker 1: Now is that ethical? Uh? Ethical versus legal? You know?
15:21
Speaker 1: That's a that's a difficult line uh to draw. UM,
15:27
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, particularly in Colorado where they are located,
15:32
Speaker 1: it was not illegal. UM. It's not typical for a
15:38
Speaker 1: funeral establishments to be actually operating uh, one of the
15:44
Speaker 1: body brokerage or organ donation businesses from its own facility.
15:50
Speaker 1: Much more common for those businesses to contract with a
15:57
Speaker 1: separate body donation company to provide those services to the
16:02
Speaker 1: families that desire them. UM. But you know it does happen,
16:08
Speaker 1: it does something well. I believe that it is legal
16:11
Speaker 1: in Colorado right now. The Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies
16:18
Speaker 1: has stated it has nine open complaints about the business,
16:23
Speaker 1: which they say is quote higher than average. I'm I'm concerned. Uh.
16:29
Speaker 1: To me, is kind of a kind to a hospital
16:31
Speaker 1: running organ human organ business. I mean, can they at
16:38
Speaker 1: least wait for you to be declared dead before they
16:40
Speaker 1: take your organs to sell them? Just go, Nancy. The
16:45
Speaker 1: key here really for the desk care industry, and I
16:48
Speaker 1: think it's what one of your other guests was getting at, UH,
16:51
Speaker 1: is that, UM, there is a level of disclosure that
16:56
Speaker 1: is required for the families so that families can make
16:59
Speaker 1: informed voices, and it is really the gold standard in
17:03
Speaker 1: our deathcare industry for the companies that provide the free
17:08
Speaker 1: cremations in exchange for UH receipt of and use of
17:13
Speaker 1: the human remains UH and UH. Similarly, UH it's the
17:18
Speaker 1: responsibility of the deathcare licensees who operate the recycling programs
17:24
Speaker 1: where they collect the gold from teeth or um the
17:29
Speaker 1: metal from implants and then they sell that UH that
17:35
Speaker 1: metal to a recycling company. UM. The key is that
17:39
Speaker 1: the family interacting with the deathcare licensee should know exactly
17:45
Speaker 1: what it is that they are getting, exactly what they're
17:49
Speaker 1: agreeing to do. You're right, it's all about disclosure to
17:53
Speaker 1: the client. I mean, I doubt pretty seriously this guy
17:57
Speaker 1: Rex had any idea his teeth will be pulled for
18:01
Speaker 1: the whole family to go on a trip to Disneyland.
18:04
Speaker 1: But for all I know, he may have said, with
18:07
Speaker 1: his sense of humor, who cares, you know, I'm getting
18:09
Speaker 1: a break on my cremation. I don't care what they
18:11
Speaker 1: do with my teeth, so you know, I don't know
18:14
Speaker 1: the answer to that. What concerns me. Joseph Scott Morgan,
18:17
Speaker 1: forensics expert, is how many people are there that have
18:22
Speaker 1: passed through that funeral home or any funeral home that
18:27
Speaker 1: may have had, for instance, their teeth pulled or there
18:30
Speaker 1: their organs harvested without them knowing. And the only way
18:35
Speaker 1: to figure that out is to exhume the bodies. And
18:39
Speaker 1: that's not going to happen, Joe Scott Morgan. No, it's not.
18:42
Speaker 1: And most of the general public is completely unaware that
18:46
Speaker 1: any of this goes on. As you remember, Nancy, I
18:48
Speaker 1: worked at the Corners office in New Orleans and the
18:50
Speaker 1: Medical Examine in Atlanta in addition to be a medical
18:53
Speaker 1: legal death investigator of also protected over seven thousand human remains.
18:59
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time and the Morgus spent
19:01
Speaker 1: a lot of time around people in the funeral industry.
19:03
Speaker 1: And this is a dirty little secret that goes on.
19:05
Speaker 1: Let's think about some of the precious metals that are
19:07
Speaker 1: involved in here. Everything has a price point, Nancy. Everything
19:11
Speaker 1: we're talking about things like titanium, We're talking about things
19:14
Speaker 1: like gold, talking about things like silver. In addition to that,
19:18
Speaker 1: you have pacemakers that are being removed from bodies. Any
19:21
Speaker 1: kind of other medical appliance as they are referred to,
19:26
Speaker 1: can be removed and recycled and sent down the line.
19:31
Speaker 1: Families are not fully aware of this most of the time,
19:35
Speaker 1: and it's it's almost like a shell game when you
19:37
Speaker 1: think about it. She's offering roughly half a grand uh
19:42
Speaker 1: service that is probably valued in reality at about two
19:47
Speaker 1: hundred bucks. And then what they make where they really
19:52
Speaker 1: make their money here, is that they piecemeal out human remains.
19:56
Speaker 1: It's really, it's really very disgusting. I've come across any
20:01
Speaker 1: number of things like this over the course of my
20:03
Speaker 1: career that have literally caused me to regurgitate in my
20:07
Speaker 1: mouth when I think about it. Because, let's face it, Nancy,
20:11
Speaker 1: we know that we represent victims um on this show,
20:15
Speaker 1: and who who is a who is a real victim
20:18
Speaker 1: in this You've got a person as all of us
20:21
Speaker 1: can identify with, that is that the lowest ebb and
20:24
Speaker 1: flow in their life. They've lost somebody that they love.
20:27
Speaker 1: They're just gonna, almost childlike, turn themselves and the services
20:31
Speaker 1: and the care of of their loved one over to
20:35
Speaker 1: somebody a total stranger. And it's a business transaction. And
20:39
Speaker 1: that's what the general public doesn't realize. It is a
20:42
Speaker 1: business transaction. Now, the funeral industry will try to tell you,
20:46
Speaker 1: they will try to tell you, oh, We're gonna be
20:47
Speaker 1: there for you and your time of wanton woe and
20:51
Speaker 1: your grief. How many television advertisements have we seen like this?
20:55
Speaker 1: And it's got a real air of distaste. Most of
20:58
Speaker 1: the time, in I experience, the general public has sold
21:03
Speaker 1: something that they don't need, they don't need in the
21:06
Speaker 1: first place, and then you essentially have someone that is
21:10
Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, and I don't mean
21:12
Speaker 1: this in the uh consumption uh viewpoint, but literally bodies
21:19
Speaker 1: are being cannibalized relative to what value they have. And
21:23
Speaker 1: it's a very sad commentary, very sad commentary. Well, I
21:27
Speaker 1: know that when my dad passed away, they could not
21:31
Speaker 1: have been nicer to us at snows it's a little
21:36
Speaker 1: memorial chapel in Macon. And I remember when my mother
21:41
Speaker 1: and father in law passed away all together and they
21:44
Speaker 1: were at Moll's. They could not have been nicer to us.
21:48
Speaker 1: So it's the exact opposite of what I'm hearing about
21:51
Speaker 1: right now. But when I think about families out there
21:55
Speaker 1: that have no idea what's happening, and if they living
21:59
Speaker 1: through that is bad enough, But then to find out
22:02
Speaker 1: this is what happened It's just devastating. What we are
22:08
Speaker 1: talking about are all allegations. Nothing has of yet been proved.
22:14
Speaker 1: But I know this. The FBI is on it, the
22:17
Speaker 1: Federal Bureau of Investigations. And the last thing you want
22:21
Speaker 1: to see is then pulling up in your driveway. I
22:23
Speaker 1: can tell you that much. Nancy, Can I jump in
22:25
Speaker 1: this go ahead to say, you know, let's be careful
22:29
Speaker 1: about painting the death care industry was too broad a brush.
22:33
Speaker 1: I can say unequivocally with twenty five years of experience
22:38
Speaker 1: representing funeral home owners and operators, and cemetery owners and
22:43
Speaker 1: operators and the professionals that work in that business. For many, many,
22:48
Speaker 1: many of the people that work in the industry, it
22:50
Speaker 1: is truly a calling, like a calling to the ministry,
22:53
Speaker 1: and they are there to serve families. But just as
22:57
Speaker 1: in every industry, there will be actors, there will be
23:02
Speaker 1: participants who do not do the right thing. And in
23:06
Speaker 1: this case, uh, it appears from the allocations that the
23:11
Speaker 1: families were not told what they were getting, they were
23:15
Speaker 1: not told what they were agreeing to, and they were misled.
23:21
Speaker 1: And that is in fact against the laws, against the
23:25
Speaker 1: statutory scheme in every state to mislead the funeral buying public.
23:30
Speaker 1: And so that's why the deathcare regulators around the country
23:35
Speaker 1: UH do their best to um prosecute and um uh
23:40
Speaker 1: and pursue regulatorially those UH members of the industry that
23:44
Speaker 1: don't do the right thing. You know, Wendy. Wendy Weener
23:47
Speaker 1: is with me, a renowned death care law expert. Wendy,
23:51
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because I think that what
23:54
Speaker 1: you're saying about the funeral industry is kind of elective
24:00
Speaker 1: of people in general. I really believe that most people
24:04
Speaker 1: are good. I do. I believe most people are good
24:08
Speaker 1: and good hearted. The ones that are not are the
24:12
Speaker 1: ones we hear about and we read about and make
24:15
Speaker 1: the headlines. But for the most part, I think you're
24:19
Speaker 1: right about the funeral industry because what they did from
24:23
Speaker 1: my mom and my husband's family at such a horrible
24:27
Speaker 1: time in our lives, it's irreplaceable, and I think it
24:31
Speaker 1: is a calling I really do, and our prayers with
24:38
Speaker 1: this guy's family for what they're going through right now.
24:41
Speaker 1: I want to pause and thank our partner making our
24:45
Speaker 1: program today exposing what is happening allegedly at this funeral home.
24:54
Speaker 1: Legal Zoom what's your story in two thousand eighteen. The
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Speaker 1: when you enter code Nancy in a n C Y
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Speaker 1: in the promo box at checkout legal Zoom. Where life
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Speaker 1: meets legal. Legal Zoom. Thank you not only for what
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Speaker 1: you do for Americans across the country every day, but
26:21
Speaker 1: for being our partner. We are headed now to Paris, California,
26:27
Speaker 1: where starving children beg police for food when they are
26:33
Speaker 1: found chained to their beds. Police rescuing thirteen children. Thirteen
26:44
Speaker 1: children starved and chained to their beds by whom else
26:52
Speaker 1: other than their reclusive and bankrupt parents. Thirteen children straight
27:01
Speaker 1: out to John Limley Crime Stories investigative reporter John what
27:06
Speaker 1: happened Well? One of the first reports Nancy was from
27:11
Speaker 1: the end of October, when a woman who lived nearby,
27:15
Speaker 1: Wendy Martinez, called police and said she saw four children
27:21
Speaker 1: kneeling in the front yard of a single story ranch
27:24
Speaker 1: style house, looking emaciated and pale. They were on their knees,
27:29
Speaker 1: four little kids, and they were just rolling on the grass,
27:32
Speaker 1: and she thought it was very odd, especially at that
27:35
Speaker 1: time of night. Their mother was standing in the archway,
27:39
Speaker 1: and she said she remembered the mother and said hi.
27:43
Speaker 1: There was no movement, not even to look over to
27:47
Speaker 1: see who's saying hi, like if they like if they
27:51
Speaker 1: told someone not to speak to anyone. She asked whether
27:55
Speaker 1: she thought the children needed help, and the woman just
28:00
Speaker 1: did not respond at all. Others said they had seen
28:04
Speaker 1: the children digging for food in garbage bands, but had
28:08
Speaker 1: not taken notice as it didn't look sinister. Another neighbor
28:13
Speaker 1: said she had seen the children before, joking that they
28:17
Speaker 1: were like the Vampire family and the Twilight books and
28:20
Speaker 1: films because they were really, really pale and only came
28:23
Speaker 1: out at night. Uh. The couple had been living in
28:28
Speaker 1: this house for quite some time, did not socialize with
28:33
Speaker 1: any of their neighbors, and it was just this past
28:37
Speaker 1: week that the siblings were found chained to their beds
28:42
Speaker 1: and their family home, begging for food. Dear Lord in
28:47
Speaker 1: Heaven Waite White White Ashley Willcott with me, lawyer and
28:54
Speaker 1: high profile child advocate, Ashley, I've been investigating this and
29:02
Speaker 1: just then my mind flashed where I did not want
29:06
Speaker 1: it to go, and that is to my own children
29:10
Speaker 1: and imagining the brutality of chaining beautiful children, innocent children,
29:20
Speaker 1: chaining them to a bed, starving them. I just overcome, Ashley.
29:28
Speaker 1: Don't you want to chain the parents to a bed
29:30
Speaker 1: and let them starve to death? I hate to say
29:32
Speaker 1: it that way, but I do twelve siblings twelve Do
29:36
Speaker 1: you know how many people can't have children that I know?
29:39
Speaker 1: And this family has twelve children. They then torture for
29:43
Speaker 1: their lives. Some of these children are now adults, they're
29:47
Speaker 1: over eighteen, and they were also padlocked to the bed.
29:51
Speaker 1: It's terrific torture. Well, the thing is Ashley. It reminds
29:57
Speaker 1: me of the case when I was busting a child
29:59
Speaker 1: crossstitution ring and we hit the streets. It was cold
30:05
Speaker 1: outside and I had I was so broke as a
30:08
Speaker 1: prosecutor and working two night jobs. My coat was so thin,
30:11
Speaker 1: and it was cold outside, and we would be outside
30:14
Speaker 1: all day, actually going from flop house to flop house
30:17
Speaker 1: to here to there to find this one girl, uh,
30:22
Speaker 1: that was thirteen. And we finally found her and I
30:26
Speaker 1: went in to the motel room and there were like
30:32
Speaker 1: five women sitting around. I came back out to my
30:34
Speaker 1: investigator said, Ernest, there's not a kid in there. They're
30:37
Speaker 1: all like thirty five years old. He went, No, go
30:40
Speaker 1: back in. It's the girl and the white boots. I
30:44
Speaker 1: went in. This girl who was thirteen with the we've
30:48
Speaker 1: and the eyelashes, in the high heeled boots. She looked
30:53
Speaker 1: like she was thirty five. I'm not kidding. In this case,
30:57
Speaker 1: it's the exact opposite. We police break into that home,
31:03
Speaker 1: the children are so starved. There's a child in their
31:09
Speaker 1: twenties that they think is about ten years old. I mean,
31:13
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert joining me, professor of forensics
31:18
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University, how can a twenty something look
31:22
Speaker 1: like their ten? Well, Nancy, when when we're deprived of
31:27
Speaker 1: everything that we need in this world, water, food, hey,
31:31
Speaker 1: even sunlight and movement. Uh, it wears on the body.
31:36
Speaker 1: It wears. It actually accelerates to a great degree aging.
31:41
Speaker 1: And can you imagine these precious children being held captive
31:45
Speaker 1: in this environment essentially deprived of all of these things
31:49
Speaker 1: that you know that keep us going at a scientific level,
31:52
Speaker 1: at a biological level, but also just this soul crushing
31:57
Speaker 1: environment where it's just I mean, can you imagine it's
31:59
Speaker 1: like being a prisoner of war where there's no hope,
32:02
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no hope whatsoever. You know, they were they
32:07
Speaker 1: home schooling, I mean, how did they How do you
32:10
Speaker 1: have this many children and nobody notices they only come
32:14
Speaker 1: out at not and no offense to the neighbors. But
32:18
Speaker 1: if I repeatedly see children digging through trash, I'm going
32:24
Speaker 1: to report it. Ellen, do you could you please roll
32:27
Speaker 1: the neighbors. The older kids, they I thought they were
32:31
Speaker 1: like twelve because they look so maltna, so pale. I'm
32:34
Speaker 1: surprised there was thirteen people. They're like, I don't even
32:36
Speaker 1: know who that. I thought they had like three kids.
32:38
Speaker 1: They're small there. They didn't like, they didn't try to
32:42
Speaker 1: communicate with other people. They weren't looking around, they would
32:44
Speaker 1: look down at heartbreaking and to now to know that
32:49
Speaker 1: there were that much kids in there and not even
32:51
Speaker 1: know about it, then it's like, I wish there was
32:54
Speaker 1: something that community could have done. Guilt and you can't
32:58
Speaker 1: but feel that that this was going on. I mean,
33:01
Speaker 1: if we had known, we would have turned this in
33:03
Speaker 1: a lot sooner. You darn't right, I'm going to report it.
33:07
Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What did you say
33:10
Speaker 1: about a neighbor saw them digging through trash but thought
33:13
Speaker 1: they looked like they were having fun. Yeah, it was
33:16
Speaker 1: just so out of place in this neighborhood that they
33:20
Speaker 1: couldn't even fathom the fact that they might really be
33:24
Speaker 1: searching for something to eat. John Lily, I'm looking at
33:27
Speaker 1: their home. It looks like kind of a Mediterranean type
33:32
Speaker 1: home with a nice front yard. Perfect grass, perfect shrubs.
33:38
Speaker 1: They you know, the kind of a red roof with
33:43
Speaker 1: the individual shingles up there like mediterranean, A two car
33:48
Speaker 1: garage and enclosed front door, a big window in the front, manicured.
33:56
Speaker 1: I mean, but now I know it's anything. But what
34:00
Speaker 1: would you say? The parents? Um? But at lea should
34:03
Speaker 1: go to hell to be honest, they should. They shouldn't
34:06
Speaker 1: even I don't think anybody like that should even be parents,
34:09
Speaker 1: you know. Before I head back to Paris, California, I've
34:14
Speaker 1: just got to ask Ashley Wilcott. You have children you
34:19
Speaker 1: York all the time, just like me. Are you ever tired? Ashley?
34:23
Speaker 1: Are you exhausted all the time all the time? We
34:25
Speaker 1: have kids? Okay, me too. I live on hot Tea.
34:29
Speaker 1: It's everywhere. That's what. By the way, according to me,
34:32
Speaker 1: that's what I have in my Yet according to me,
34:34
Speaker 1: it's hot to you to keep me going. Well, I
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Speaker 1: Beats thanks boy to Paris, California police rescuing thirteen children.
36:56
Speaker 1: It's a house of horrors, and I don't understand how
37:01
Speaker 1: outwardly it could look so normal, but inside the children
37:07
Speaker 1: are starving and they're chained to their beds. I've even
37:12
Speaker 1: seen video of the mother and dad renewing their vows
37:18
Speaker 1: at a Vegas chapel and and slow dancing. I'm I'm
37:24
Speaker 1: I'm overwhelmed, Ashley, because I was reading about it and
37:28
Speaker 1: began investigating this case, and I wouldn't let myself think
37:32
Speaker 1: about my own children. I mean, just today I practically
37:36
Speaker 1: had to I had to chase John David to put
37:40
Speaker 1: make him put chapstick on. Okay, I had to chase him, Ashley,
37:44
Speaker 1: because I was so worried that his lips might hurt
37:46
Speaker 1: during school. Okay, and these children are chained to their bed.
37:51
Speaker 1: I mean, how could relatives not know, Ashley, somebody knew.
37:55
Speaker 1: I do not, absolutely do not believe that no one knew, or,
38:00
Speaker 1: like you said the neighbors, when you see these things happen,
38:04
Speaker 1: this is what kills me. So many people say, oh,
38:06
Speaker 1: defacts dropped the ball, the state agency didn't do what
38:09
Speaker 1: they were supposed to. Well guess what if nobody reports
38:12
Speaker 1: these things to them, they don't even have an opportunity
38:15
Speaker 1: to step in and investigate all of the things that
38:19
Speaker 1: have already been said before. Emaciated the neighbors said, they
38:23
Speaker 1: looked emaciated. I'm like you, a, I can't imagine any
38:27
Speaker 1: of these things happening to my children, much less doing
38:29
Speaker 1: them be If I see children like that, I call
38:33
Speaker 1: and make a referral because it's the right thing to
38:36
Speaker 1: do to protect children, and nobody did it. I do
38:39
Speaker 1: not believe relatives didn't know. There's no way you do
38:43
Speaker 1: not torture twelve children like this without somebody knowing something's
38:50
Speaker 1: wrong in that house, and everybody failed to protect. Let
38:54
Speaker 1: me understand something else has a homeschooling thing or exactly,
38:58
Speaker 1: and let me tell you something I have um a
39:01
Speaker 1: cousin who lives in Florida, and she home schools for
39:05
Speaker 1: children because she did not think they were getting the
39:09
Speaker 1: education she wanted them to get in public school. These
39:13
Speaker 1: children can quote Shakespeare. They're in elementary grades and I
39:19
Speaker 1: mean they're way, way educated past their grade school. Okay,
39:24
Speaker 1: So I'm not knocking homeschooling. That's not where I'm coming from.
39:28
Speaker 1: But this is my question, Ashley Willcott, how do you
39:31
Speaker 1: home school and nobody ever comes from the state to
39:34
Speaker 1: check it out. I mean, I could say I'm homeschooling
39:37
Speaker 1: and we could, you know, lay around and watch Murdoch
39:40
Speaker 1: Mysteries all day on Amazon. I mean, how do they
39:44
Speaker 1: regulate homeschooling. I'm amazed at what they don't do to regulate.
39:49
Speaker 1: So in the state of Georgia specifically, you go in
39:53
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace and say, I'm going to homeschool my children. Okay,
39:57
Speaker 1: still out this form, that's one page. Okay, do that.
40:01
Speaker 1: Lucy and John David are now going to be homeschooled.
40:04
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna do it. Well,
40:07
Speaker 1: that's it. That's the end of it. There is no regulation,
40:10
Speaker 1: there is no checking to see what are you teaching them?
40:13
Speaker 1: There's no curriculum that is one that you have to
40:17
Speaker 1: confirm or verify your teaching, So, at least in the
40:20
Speaker 1: state of Georgia, anybody can say their homeschool and their children,
40:24
Speaker 1: whether they're actually educating their children or not. So I
40:27
Speaker 1: would not assume that these twelve siblings that were padlocked
40:31
Speaker 1: to beds have been educated. You know, I'm just overwhelmed.
40:34
Speaker 1: Some of the neighbors didn't even know that the family
40:37
Speaker 1: had children. Hello, there's thirteen of them. Now. The reason
40:42
Speaker 1: you're hearing some of us say thirteen and some of
40:44
Speaker 1: us say twelve, because when cops got there, there were
40:48
Speaker 1: twelve there, which I'm going to explain to you. But
40:51
Speaker 1: John Limley, investigative reporter, how is it some neighbors didn't
40:55
Speaker 1: even know that there were children. Hello, there's thirteen of
40:59
Speaker 1: them in there. This is testament to how little these children,
41:05
Speaker 1: some of these adult children were let out of the house.
41:09
Speaker 1: They were essentially prisoners in their own home. And it
41:14
Speaker 1: was not until their seventeen year old sister, who fled
41:20
Speaker 1: the home and alerted cops. It was not until she
41:24
Speaker 1: took this brave move that there was any idea that
41:28
Speaker 1: anything was really wrong, and that's when the police found
41:32
Speaker 1: this family of children uh padlocked to their beds. Uh dirty,
41:39
Speaker 1: starving padlock and filthy, filthy, filthy and starving, Ellen Deep,
41:47
Speaker 1: could you please roll police? A seventeen year old rold
41:51
Speaker 1: called nine one one from a deactivated cell phone and
41:54
Speaker 1: reported that her siblings were being held against their will
41:57
Speaker 1: and some were chained. Deputies met with that seventeen year
42:01
Speaker 1: old nearby, and she explained that she had escaped through
42:04
Speaker 1: a window from from that residence. Seventeen year old also
42:09
Speaker 1: showed some photos uh that led the deputies to believe
42:13
Speaker 1: that information she was provided was accurate. Deputies and a
42:17
Speaker 1: supervisor responded to that location conducted a welfare check to
42:23
Speaker 1: check on the additional siblings in that home. There are
42:26
Speaker 1: a total of thirteen siblings located, six of which were
42:30
Speaker 1: under the age of eighteen. Um deputies. When they arrived
42:37
Speaker 1: inside the house, they noticed that the children were malnourished,
42:41
Speaker 1: it was pretty dirty and the conditions were horrific, Allen.
42:47
Speaker 1: When the seventeen year old girl made it to police,
42:52
Speaker 1: they thought she was ten years old. She did not
42:57
Speaker 1: look like she was seventeen. As the Morgan said, you
43:01
Speaker 1: deny them water and food, They're going to age very quickly.
43:04
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking at these the photos of their
43:07
Speaker 1: their vowel renewal. It's not actually a wedding, but they
43:10
Speaker 1: were renewing their vowels. They looked like they were happy
43:13
Speaker 1: and happy a good time. Which actually think, did this
43:16
Speaker 1: horror just started the last year or two? Oh no, no,
43:20
Speaker 1: there's no way. It just it just because remember the
43:23
Speaker 1: neighbors had no that had lived there for years, had
43:27
Speaker 1: no idea that children were even in there. So as
43:31
Speaker 1: she Wilcott, I want to go to you and Joseph
43:34
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. First to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics
43:37
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, what do you have
43:40
Speaker 1: to do for a seventeen year old girl to be
43:44
Speaker 1: starved down to have the appearance of a ten year old, Well,
43:47
Speaker 1: it's deprivation, deprivation of basic necessities. Nancy, and I agree
43:54
Speaker 1: with Alan. This is not something that you know, just
43:57
Speaker 1: kind of occurred in a vacuum in a short period
44:00
Speaker 1: of time. This is something that has gone on forever.
44:03
Speaker 1: And the reason when they're talking about her her appearance
44:07
Speaker 1: as a young child, I think at least that they're
44:11
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that we appear diminutive. And as
44:15
Speaker 1: we all know, if we have children, there is a
44:17
Speaker 1: growing curve that these kids are on. There's an expectation
44:21
Speaker 1: that you're gonna meet nutritionally to help them grow. And
44:25
Speaker 1: my suspicion is, my suspicion is is that they had
44:29
Speaker 1: not in methides. If they're if they're keeping food away
44:32
Speaker 1: from her and these other children, they might very well
44:36
Speaker 1: appear to be diminutive. They're they're not gonna be muscled,
44:40
Speaker 1: their bone growth that's gonna be compromised, and even down
44:45
Speaker 1: to things like like their teeth. Uh. I'm not just
44:49
Speaker 1: talking about miscare where they're rotten. I'm talking about where
44:53
Speaker 1: bad nutrition promotes things like teeth falling out um, and
44:56
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of other health issues here that it
45:00
Speaker 1: just really it makes me sit back and just scratch
45:02
Speaker 1: your heads. How can you sit there, How can you
45:05
Speaker 1: sit there living in this house and watch this happen
45:08
Speaker 1: to your kids beyond the panel and they were filthy, filthy,
45:13
Speaker 1: starved and chained to the bed. And Ashley Wilcott, I
45:18
Speaker 1: hope you're sitting down. You may need to lie down
45:20
Speaker 1: for this one, Ashley. They're not like people that don't
45:24
Speaker 1: know better. The husband was had actually worked as a
45:28
Speaker 1: successful engineer and was earning about a hundred and fifty
45:33
Speaker 1: grand a year. His wife was listed as a homemaker.
45:37
Speaker 1: I mean, these are educated people, Ashley. It's almost like
45:40
Speaker 1: they had a break with reality. So I know that
45:43
Speaker 1: the records indicate they declared bankruptcy. They have become sadistic
45:48
Speaker 1: tortures of these children that clearly it doesn't happen in isolation.
45:52
Speaker 1: These are not I can tell you statistically in the
45:54
Speaker 1: many many cases that I've worked and that I've seen,
45:57
Speaker 1: this does not happen one time and oh one night
46:02
Speaker 1: we've had like our children to the bed, and this
46:04
Speaker 1: is how the children now look. This is years of
46:07
Speaker 1: statistic abused by these parents. And so one of the
46:11
Speaker 1: lessons to be learned from this is child abused crosses
46:14
Speaker 1: all demographics. It can be educated individuals, rich individuals, poor individuals.
46:20
Speaker 1: It crosses every demographic. And here's a prime example. They're
46:25
Speaker 1: educated earners and look what they're doing to their children.
46:29
Speaker 1: So to you, John Limy, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what's
46:33
Speaker 1: going to happen to these parents? I hope they rotten,
46:36
Speaker 1: held shade to their beds and starved well. They have
46:39
Speaker 1: been charged with torture and child endangerment UH. David Alan Turpin,
46:45
Speaker 1: the father, is fifty seven years old, his wife forty
46:48
Speaker 1: nine year olds, Louise Anna Turpin um As it's been
46:53
Speaker 1: revealed of the parents followed for bankruptcy UH. He had
46:57
Speaker 1: gone through a couple of engineering jobs. It's interesting to
47:01
Speaker 1: point out that even family members didn't realize what was
47:05
Speaker 1: going on. David's parents, James and Betty Turpin, said they
47:10
Speaker 1: were surprised and shocked at the news about their own grandchildren.
47:14
Speaker 1: This couple, they lived in West Virginia, said they had
47:17
Speaker 1: not visited the family for four or five years, but
47:20
Speaker 1: had spoken to them on the phone, although not with
47:24
Speaker 1: their grandchildren. What I know is one neighbor said that
47:31
Speaker 1: the mother, Louise Turpin, was smirking when the cops shut up,
47:38
Speaker 1: and that she quote spat on the floor twice in
47:43
Speaker 1: front of the cops when they arrived to raid the
47:48
Speaker 1: home and save the children, and those children would still
47:51
Speaker 1: be in that home starving right now. Is you and
47:54
Speaker 1: I go about our business today, working, taking care of
47:57
Speaker 1: our children, planning this and that and those children just
48:00
Speaker 1: sitting there where at their stomachs in pain, the gnawing hunger.
48:08
Speaker 1: Chained to a bed, she spat on the floor as
48:13
Speaker 1: the cops showed up at her door with a smirk
48:17
Speaker 1: on her face. Well maybe that's smart. Will be wiped
48:21
Speaker 1: off her face behind bars right now. It's a nine
48:25
Speaker 1: million dollar bill and I can only say I think
48:29
Speaker 1: it's too low. We do need to acknowledge the courage
48:34
Speaker 1: of a young girl who escaped from that residence to
48:37
Speaker 1: bring attention so they could get the help that they
48:40
Speaker 1: so needed. Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend,