Latest / Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul / Trauma Informed Care, Transformation & the Sacred Path of Embodiment with Atira Tan

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Trauma Informed Care, Transformation & the Sacred Path of Embodiment with Atira Tan · Healing Her Story with Riva Jean-Paul

• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to today's episode on the Healing Her Story podcast.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I am just beaming with excitement and joy for today's conversation.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have an incredible guest.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably, gosh, one of like the biggest moments for the show, I feel like.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's truly such an honor to have this woman on.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Before I introduce her, I just want to share a little bit about how I connected with this woman.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Without going too deep into the story, as a lot of people who have entered into my life, this woman came into my life in a very divinely guided way.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I had been hosting retreats locally here where I live in Northern California and was seeing some things that made me feel like I was missing something.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I began searching, didn't know for what.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: I had heard the word trauma-informed care from a friend of mine who is also on a similar path as me.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just kind of like a small seed.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I'm looking for other support and resources, I stumbled upon an episode that had the words trauma-informed care and plant medicine, which were two things that were very much alive for me.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I listened to the podcast episode, and it helped me to understand some of the things that I was missing.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there was an invitation at the end of the episode to join a training.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if you've ever heard this story.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I thought, wow, this feels like incredible timing.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I filled out the application.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I even told myself, you know, even if I don't get the scholarship, I'm still going to do this training.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I I think maybe I maybe I got a partial or discount code or something.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that wasn't even, it wasn't a deal breaker for me.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: I knew I needed to do this training.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: And little did I know, I went looking for my clients, for the women I was serving, and I got so much more.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I was invited to a level of depth in my healing that I had not yet experienced.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it completely changed my life.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: That was just the first training, and then the second, and the third, and the fourth, and it's just continued to wow, just completely bring me home to myself, show up for people in a way that is not always seen in the world.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been truly such a joy and a beauty and a blessing to be in connection with this woman.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let me introduce her.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Her name is Atira Tan, and she is a somatic trauma specialist, educator, and spiritual practitioner with decades of experience guiding people back to safety, sovereignty, and inner wisdom.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: She weaves together trauma-informed care, yoga, somatics, meditation, and embodied healing to support individuals and communities worldwide.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Atira is the founder of Art to Healing, a nonprofit dedicated to ending sexual violence and has trained thousands of practitioners in trauma-informed approaches.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Her life's work centers on restoring connection to self, to others, and to earth through compassion, embodiment, and service.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Atira, welcome to the show.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, River.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's so lovely to be here.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um thank you so much for sharing, you know, how um our connection has landed for you, impacted you, moved me really deeply.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I thank you so much for that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm really touched.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm happy to share it.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Once I started doing that, and I I saw how um well received that was for all the guests, I just continued to do it.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's nice to be able to have that moment.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it so much.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Atira, I always ask our guests the very first question, can you tell us about your story?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, um, sure.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I might start at the beginning because I think that um I think that the environment uh that I grew up with really, you know, shaped um the way that I live and what I offer in the world.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I might actually start there first.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that it's important to kind of share firstly that you know I was born in Singapore, um, and my background is from Southeast Asia.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I grew up in a very kind of dangerous environment where you know there was a lot of persecution, there was a lot of chaos, there was a lot of danger uh in my immediate kind of family environment, which kind of led to the presentation that I think that we're familiar with, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in as I was kind of growing up, I think from the get-go, even as an infant, or I would say even in con maybe uh as I was, you know, in my mother's womb in that kind of very vulnerable uh perinatal state, um, things were really chaotic and um not very kind of secure, you know.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um my needs when being met.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So at a very young age, there was both that imprint of abuse and neglect.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that there are many kind of different layers to the story.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was also brought up in an extremely, I grew up in a Christian cult where my father was the leader of a Christian cult.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that really kind of amplified, I think, um, a lot of the existing kind of imprints with, you know, growing up Asian, having certain, I think, layers of intergenerational and ancestral kind of trauma from, you know, being immigrants that come from um a long line of immigrants, you know, people kind of moving to Singapore, moving to an extremely kind of colonized country, uh, where the only reason why the country was there was because of um the British India Company for trade, um, which has, you know, um its different kind of levels of complexity when we start to look at trauma, I think, from you know, the different layers from the environment, from society, from the culture, and then our own um personal history.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I grew up in a very dangerous environment.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: What happened, I think, for me and the way that I survived in that time, uh, was through I think mostly a lot of disassociation, being having to split uh a lot of different parts of myself off in order just to survive within not just my home, you know, the school, but also the cult as well, and then the society.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And as you probably know, I grew up as a spirit, wild and free, and uh very much, you know, a free thinker, very creative, um, not really kind of from a young age listening to my own inner authority and being clear what was kind of what felt right for me, what didn't feel right for me.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this comes from a very being born in a very extreme religious kind of context.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, this just doesn't make sense, you know, all the rules and um expectations, you know, just it's not resonant for just me.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not my truth, but it's my parents' truth, and you know, um and there are shadow sides of trauma and they spin us into a place of deep suffering and pain.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's also a healing vortex that's attached to it.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: So everything is, you know, that they're both that we're holding.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that even though it was a very painful environment to grow up in, uh, what it really cultivated and nurtured was this deep sense to that inner authority, like what feels right for me, what feels good, what feels true, and what feels untrue, you know.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um so within, I think that that context, I had to really split off parts of myself to feel safe in my home, in in the uh kind of religious group that was a very big part of my parents' lives, and also the society in Singapore, you know, the culture in in Asia, which also has its heirlooms, but it also has its imprint.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many wonderful things about you know um being born in Singapore and being Southeast Asian, and there are also things that are persecutory, like um the rejection and the persecution, you know, people that think outside of the box.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And literally in Singapore is political because if you there is no free speech in Singapore, for instance.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you speak something against the government or speak something against, you know, someone of authority, you get thrown in jail or house arrest immediately.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there is this kind of layer to my environment, yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, I needed to really kind of split off and disassociate to the point where I grew up mostly quite numb, I would say, you know, because I it wasn't safe to really feel, wasn't really safe to yeah, just be myself, you know.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: My blueprint, what we call in the way that I teach, the the blueprint wasn't safe, it it was extremely collapsed, you know.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and as I was kind of growing up as a young person, um I think that this is where my experience and my knowledge and wisdom with plant medicine and psychedelics come in because um when I was a young person, I was very fortunate to meet uh a very wise human being that um that supported me in using psychedelics to to heal.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and I was I was young.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I would say to the audience that I probably was initiated, I suppose, into this psychedelic experience, a little bit younger than most people, but I still kind of had the I think wisdom and maturity, I think, to really understand what was going on.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: But in this experience, I had as a very young person, and this person was a wonderful guy.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I must say that I'm very fortunate that as a young person, as a very vulnerable, at-risk, you know, young person, uh, I was very fortunate that this person was extremely safe, um, that he knew exactly how to guide me, how to give me space, and yet, you know, prompt a deeper um curiosity and exploration within myself in that journey.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I now understand how special that was because I have experienced a lot of guides since then that haven't had that attunement and nuance to their holding.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very grateful that I had him.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And in that experience, psychedelic experience, what I what happened was that I had a moment uh where I could really feel the shit was almost like many shields of protection and pain around my being.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in one moment, it was like God just entered me.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And all of that protection, you know, all that pain for the first time in my life, um, just broke.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: It was like the shields just cracked and they broke.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first time in my life, I really had a direct experience of the divine, you know, of my blueprint, actually.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: It was like I was the only thing I could say was like, oh, you know, Atira is here at last.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can feel myself, I can feel God, you know.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean God, not like a man in the, you know, in the sky, but the intelligence of the universe, you know, I can feel the divine, the intelligence of the universe, the greater picture of why we're alive, um, in that direct experience kind of moment.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a very big, I think, turning point.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: That really was the beginning of um, you know, a never kind of ending journey of healing and discovery and you know, personal development and really spiritual awakening um that I'm still uh on, you know, and I I really enjoy, and and that's really the uh has been uh the center and the the axis mundi of my life.
• 16:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so from that experience, um, I was very fortunate because I was also invited into very small kind of um psychedelic circles where we would um we would really support each other to be creative.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was really a creative circle because I was a painter and I was started as an artist, you know, and we would paint and draw and write plays and write poetry and make music together in that space, but we would also support each other to go extremely deep into exploring the emotional um and spiritual and psychological, you know, um, nature of life.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as a young person, that was really when I started my journey of the deeper healing.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: And before, because of my you know background, I've been through the mental health system, you know, I was extremely kind of suicidal as a young person.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but none of those services really helped me.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that was when I started to understand, okay, what is self-reflection, what is meditation, you know, what is really being able to go inside and um start building a relationship with that blueprint, really started with the blueprint, which is why it's such a huge theme, I think, in in a lot of my courses as a resource, because that that is really you know what I believe will heal you.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: And guides, facilitators, therapists can hold that with you, that they can mirror that, reflect that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think really in the healing journey of trauma, the blue blueprint is essential, is really what heals us back to you know, us re being who we are, yeah, embodying who we are, remembering who we are, truly are.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a little bit of that part of my story.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And um what happened afterwards was that I immigrated to Australia, to Melbourne.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I, you know, studied to be an artist.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I did my bachelor's in fine arts.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that I always wanted, you know, for me in my healing journey, also with psychedelics, for me, creativity was the main channel of healing for me.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, uh what I would paint, what I would see in, you know, um my visions, uh either in altered or non-altered states of consciousness, that art was just a way of you know me giving me a channel to really explore what was in my inner world.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I really believed in it as healing, you know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So after I finished my degree, I went on and studied um counseling, psychology, and then um trained to be an art therapist, which I absolutely loved.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And uh from the experience of you know, being an intern, you know, working in acute mental health, uh working in domestic violence, I've worked with um worked with you know um folks that were struggling with intellectual disabilities.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um at a certain point, you know, I was like, studying is enough.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've studied for so long, I feel like I need to just travel.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the first place I think I got to on my travels, I was 24 at that time.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was seven years after the war had ended in Cambodia.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if many of the listeners have been to Warton Country, um, but for a kind of a privilege, I would say, even though I've been through a lot of trauma, I I I perceive myself as an extremely privileged person because coming from Asia, you know, um there's so little opportunities here, especially for women in the generation that I kind of grew up.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So to even have, you know, a um education system, you know, because one of the wonderful things in Singapore is that like everybody has an education that's free of charge, you know.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's great, yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I found myself to be really very lucky to have that, to never have struggled really with like physical survival needs, you know.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even though my parents were very abusive, like emotionally, very neglectful, emotionally and physically, spiritually, like there was a lot of different layers of abuse, but they always put food on the table, you know.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had the clothes to wear, they really focused on my education.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when I first landed in Cambodia and started to explore Asia, a lot of women don't even have that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of women, a lot of, you know, men, children go to bed very hungry.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, clean water is not available.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that we take that a lot for granted.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually the global majority.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when I arrived in Cambodia seven years after the war had ended, it was um really intense.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was, I was like, wow, I am so incredibly privileged, even though I've been through a lot of suffering, in like inner suffering.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I actually saw, you know, because the country's just so poor at that time, um, one of the ways that you know these impoverished families would make money is to traffic their daughters, you know, into sexual servitude.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because one of the reasons, there are many different reasons that I I mean um I could go into, but one of the main reasons was poverty.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so on the street that I lived, you know, every evening the parents, the families would line the daughters up.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: They were eight, nine years old, they were young.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I would walk past that, you know, every single evening to my apartment.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just so shocked, you know, it's just just just so.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So shocked.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And even like if you go, I mean, here where I live in Thailand, I mean, there's just you know, sexual servitude is an issue.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Trafficking, child trafficking is an issue.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's multiplies, amplifying the world.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to all the other things that are amplifying the world.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there was something inside of me that was like, I have to do something about this.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I am really privileged.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I have all the resources, I'm a therapist, you know, I can stay here, I had enough, you know, I'm gonna stay here, I'm gonna get a job, I'm gonna go, I'm curious.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, and I want to do something uh around this.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one thing that I do have to name, uh, which kind of is a big element around my decision, is that when I started my journey with psychedelics, what ultimately led me very quickly was to yoga.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: And when I talk about yoga, I don't just mean asana, I really talk about the depth of yoga, like yoga philosophy, you know, the way that we live our lives.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the channels of yoga as a way of living is really karma yoga, which is the yoga of action, and also bhakti yoga, which is the yoga of devotion.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have jnna yoga and many, you know, um different ways of how we can embody that connection to the divine in our lives, right?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really, I think, spiritual, that's my spiritual path.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just mental, it's not just like, it's really like how do you put that devotion, that connection to God, that love, what you're being taught by meditation, you know, yogic philosophy, psychedelics, what you understand about the dimensions of human existence, how do you channel that into your actions?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, um, very clearly, I think from the get-go, karma yoga was my way, and this is the way of service.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: And this was the way that I was like, I'm gonna step out in service.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, long story short, you know, I started working in Cambodia with these uh women and girls, and then I started my own charity that brought me all over the world, um, and working with very marginalized populations.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: I worked in many different kinds of areas of international development with the global majority, um, but I would say that my passion and my biggest kind of um my biggest love, my biggest passion is really the to my purpose is to I see that as to um inspire and to guide women in Asia into a place of sovereignty within themselves because um that was a path that I had to to also take.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and there might not not be time to share that part of the story in the interview.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but how it kind of I think leads to you know the work that I offer now and my offerings.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I work in disaster relief, I work with victims of war and torture, I also worked um with in refugees and asylum seekers worked in the camps, slapped in the camps, refugee camps.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So really I'm sharing that that part of my work experience because I think that when you work with trauma is very important to see lots of different bodies and lots of nervous systems and lots of stories because everybody's different and every culture is different.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when I'm working with Australia, with a mostly, you know, say white body population, the w the way that I'm holding space is completely different to when I'm going into the refugee camps and working with like a Koran population, let's say, or when I'm going to Nepal, when I'm going to India or Cambodia or Thailand, like there it's like different people have different this physiological the physiology of the person in the nervous system, we all share that, you know, including all mammals share that.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: But there are many different layers and nuances in the way how we hold space for the resolution of trauma.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wanted to name and thank all the all my clients, all the people that I've seen, all the different communities, because we work very much on the grassroots community level.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and really I wouldn't be like the the educator and the therapist I am today without um being so intimate with them, I think.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And really yeah, having first hand experience of understanding all these stories and all these complexities of trauma and and not just that, but like their resources and like their strengths and you know just just how adversity has shaped them, and you know, how again like connecting to the blueprint.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I will name is that when I started my journey as an as an art therapist, expressive art therapist, when I was put in such complex trauma like trauma situations with my clients, where there are levels of displacement, there are levels of CPTSD, there are levels of, you know, you know, sexual abuse.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, I mean displacement is a really big thing where you just, you know, when there's war, yeah, when you've lost your loved ones, where there's so many different layers of that.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I would say 100% that creativity was just not enough, you know, like my training as an art therapist, and even though I did done a lot of other kinds of trauma training before, like EMTR and so on and so forth, it just it's something was just missing from working with my clients, you know.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I started, you know, somatic experiencing that program about 15 years ago, um, and that really was the missing key.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: When I started to learn about the body, when I started to learn about, you know, the nervous system, the physiology, you know, I was just like, oh my goodness, well, that's the missing piece, not just with my clients, but also like within my own personal healing.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because even though I had that amazing experience of psychedelics, and I've I continued to have beautiful healing experiences with psychedelics, I found that it wasn't enough, especially for my imprints of trauma.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really, it wasn't enough.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It it only opened like a portal.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was an opening of a portal.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: It gave me an experience of my blueprint.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: But as you probably know with psychedelics, it's just an experience.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like you actually have to work at making it real.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like when I talk about real, I mean like you're feeling it every moment, you know, like you know that you can lean on this blueprint, you trust it.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: It comes up in your thoughts, your speech, your actions, your the way that you feel about yourself.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is like embodied.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that is a long journey.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't know if I have glimpses of that, you know.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I have very long moments, long periods where I feel, you know, that that that's anchored.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are certain moments when adversity happens in my life where I'm like, oh, you know, the blueprint kind of fades into the background.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's a constant work, it's a constant effort.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, in my own healing journey, um I needed so much more support, you know, than just psychedelics.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I really needed the right layers of support, therapy, you know, and um a lot of the therapy that worked for me as a CPTSD survivor was the somatic work.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't really, you know, there's so many different layers and so many different modalities that I can name.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I went to see a Hakomi practitioner, you know, SC was very much, somatic experiencing was very much, you know, a pillar in my my life, but also num, you know, neuroaffective touch, womb surround work with Ray Castellino, there's so many things, but they all come under like the bracket and the umbrella of the connection with the body, the connection not just to the body, but to the inner healing intelligence in the body.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so that's a little bit of my story and how I ended up being um, yeah, that part of me that's an activist, you know, part of me that's an educator, part of me that that is a really, you know, I love working with clients, I love working with people's bodies.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and also I feel very passionate, especially in the psychedelic world, because I have been part of the psychedelic community for you know almost 30 years.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel like part of the karma yoga, part of the role and responsibility that I have, maybe you know, as a person that has been in this community for a really long time, is really one of protection, you know, and one of safety, one of protection.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And because plant medicines and psychedelics, they have the power to heal, um, but they also have the power of making us very vulnerable.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in that experience that I had with, you know, all my protection and all of those layers, those armors like breaking open, if I had a malintentioned, I was so vulnerable.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was so vulnerable and I was so at risk.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if that that space really needs a very, very um mature, you know, humble, um, a person that is able to put away their ego to be completely present to what's kind of going on.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: They need education.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's a nuanced, vulnerable, and sensitive space.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I've gone through experiences when that hasn't happened, and I've been abused, you know, sexually in these, you know, experiences, and it just created so much damage to me.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, lost so much trust in myself, and you know, so on and so forth.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I really feel very strongly about that karma yoga.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: We really need to step up and help each other.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to do that through action, you know.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's very practical.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yes, we have that impulse, but we have to do it through action.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if there is no action, then your words are just um empty, you know.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is it's just empty.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: All these things that we think and ideas and concepts, they're all empty unless we embody it, and then we go the next step to actually put it into action.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that for me, that's what is missing sometimes quite a lot in the spiritual community and the plasma and the psychedelic community.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I totally understand why, but I also think want to create a new way of being here in the world, which is you know, one that can um integrate all of these parts of being human together.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Makes sense, it does, yeah, to me.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: It makes perfect sense to me.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you so much for your generous share of your heart, of your history, of your story.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: You really do have a very rich, rich, rich story.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I can really hear how your own experience has really shaped the way that you've yeah, now hold space for others.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so beautiful to witness, and I can really hear your blueprint throughout all of it as well, and also really celebrating your your resilience as well.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: You you've shared so much there, and I love what you've shared about the different types of trauma, and I appreciate you naming that because I don't know that people understand that sometimes, that trauma is not just, you know, a car accident, or um, of course, it can be war, um, it can be abuse, and it can also be emotional neglect.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I find anytime I share that with with someone, there's always this kind of like, oh, because, and that was my experience too.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I never understood that.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: So you've really highlighted the different layers of trauma as well: religious trauma, societal trauma, and these are things that I have learned from you as well.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so curious, like hearing about your story and how you began listening to your own inner sense at such a young age, like that's incredible.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And as you continue to follow that and and follow your curiosity and create these new um frameworks and and ways of being and and ways of working with people.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm thinking of your trauma-informed principles, and and I'm wondering how much of those were shaped by your own history.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, were these things things that that you kind of gathered from like say your education, or were these things that you kind of created from your own experience, or maybe a little bit of both?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's is is both, yeah, both.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, I really want to share that um these principles really were created by people that did a lot of research into trauma and created principles that they found very helpful, you know, um, especially for guides and facilitators, teachers, um, to hold kind of spaces where people um could connect inside that could amplify that felt sense of safety.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when I was learning these principles as a CPTSD survivor, uh I would try that out, you know, within myself.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I would really, I think it would be highlighted when I would be in a space with a facilitator or a teacher that did not embody those principles.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: That did not were not number one, I think that there's awareness when you don't even have awareness of these principles that I think that that you come in and you guide people in a way that I don't know, it's like a blind spot or something, you know, like something's kind of missing, you know.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's also many kind of different layers um to the trauma-informed work.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think, first of all, it's not just a kind of checklist, I think that people um kind of check off and say, oh, I provided choice and agency, you know, like um I'm using empathic language and so on and so forth.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I believe that trauma is universal.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's really kind of like first is the embodiment piece of like facilitators getting it not just in their heads because we're multidimensional people, aren't we?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's the mind, which is the I think usually for folks the first level that you know that it enters.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's the heart where we really start to have empathy and resonate, like emotional attunement and resonance with ourselves and also the people that we're with.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really, I think, beyond the mind.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: But first, the mind has to get it, and then but really the next step is like the heart really needs to get it.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then there is the body piece, which is the embodiment of these principles.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: But the way that I also see the body is that the body and the nervous system is a tuning fork, you know, it's it's like our nervous systems is an antenna that resonates with people in that room.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're really doing in the trauma-informed approach, where we bring the body and the heart and the mind into it, is that we are really attuning, we're kind of listening with this full whole body listening to the nervous systems, to what's kind of happening, what we say in the field, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's information in the field, there's information in each cell of space that we are really listening to.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're listening as well with the organ of the heart, you know, it's not an energetic woo-woo thing.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the heart actually have nerve cells that that, you know, on a on a um electromagnetic level, they extend out of us and they actually connect with different hearts in the room.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when we kind of I think when we attune to that layer of suffering, and I well, I really want to also share that like being trauma-informed is not just around suffering and adversity, it's also around like being able to see people's strengths, yeah, is able to see people's light.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember when I was like walking past these girls that were being trafficked on the on the street and like continue when I continued working with them, I could see their spark, you know.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't that they were like so just survivors that had been through this terrible experience.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like they had so many incredible qualities in them, you know.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: They were, you know, some of them were really alive, like you know, some of them were so smart, like they had this fire about survival.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like there were so many amazing things about them.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that part of being trauma-informed, really when you get into what it truly means on a level of walking this path, is that, you know, it's like we are listening, we're attuning, you know, we are really receiving a person with receiving the information from them of their suffering and also of their blueprint as well.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we are kind of balancing the both, you know, like really being sensitive, really being attuned on that level of the mind, the emotions, but also in their nervous system and using the power of like co-regulation um to create spaces of repair.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Spaces of repair, like spaces where people can feel you know that they're met with the right kind of support because this trauma-inform approach is also a very individualized approach.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: And these ten principles are like the you know, they're really like the walls of that space, you know, of repair.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're creating what I visualize usually is like we're creating a temple, you know, step in my triumphant temple.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: These pillars, these principles, these walls, uh that container, you know, we kind of use them if we're inspired by them, if we also integrate them in our lives and the way how we firstly communicate to ourselves, hold space for ourselves, and also those in you know our community, then we create a very kind of a container that within that field, that space in the container, you know, magic can really happen.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: And when you are talking about working with plant medicine and psychedelics, that magic amplifies because you know, when we are working in plant medicine and psychedelics, that's an amplifier.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And if we know what to do, I think as facilitators, we can really amplify that healing vortex.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: If we take it seriously, we really take the role of being in that place of authority seriously.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: If we take it like this is a craft that I'm going to refine, and I have people's hearts and stories and lives and bodies in my hands, I'm gonna take it seriously, you know.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can do so much good, I think, with the people that we we see and we hold.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've I've experienced it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I have stepped into your trauma informed temple and experienced.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: the the holding and the just a place where I could really soften and and be myself and yeah it's it's hard to articulate put into words get it yeah it's it's there's a depth to it um and I remember the first time I stepped into one of your trauma informed temples and it was so different than anything I had experienced and that contrast was a bit um I don't know if unsettling is the right word but it was this like oh like what what is happening here it took me some time to to get used to it it did make me um a little uncomfortable at first is that something that is common would you say yeah I think yeah yeah for sure yeah definitely that story reminds me a little bit of I think it was uh Plato with um there there is this like metaphor of a person like being in the cave you know and then yeah it's it's like they're kind of in a cave and but they feel like the cave is like their whole entire world you know and they feel that sense of intrepidation like walking when then someone comes and says actually there's a whole you know new world outside of this cave um would you like to see it and of course like at first days like intrepidation right because cave is what we know in our society our culture and it does actually take a while I think for for folks to kind of settle into that space because um it's something that is new and something which is not normal you know not something that's not the norm which I feel both sad I think uh about because I feel yeah I feel sad about that because yeah you know um I think that in the past in my activist career things that I had so much like hope um you know as a young person you know working in in this in this field that you think that things are gonna get better you know and and you're contributing to this thing and things are gonna get better but I mean if I was really honest you know um I think that there's certain parts of you know our experience in this in this life that are better and then there are also other parts that are getting a little bit worse or a lot worse.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and that really is very heartbreaking for me um and you know sometimes it's it's heartbreaking yeah um yeah and I think I kind of go through different ways you know sometimes I do fall into feeling so overwhelmed by sadness and just grief of what's happening in the world and how we're treating each other um as a global collective and it's almost like I need to kind of hit rock bottom in order to start like pivoting um to the new now which is happening kind of older it happens very quickly very more swiftly than normal um what I've experienced in the past and then again like you know having that fight energy of like okay well you know it's this is the truth of how I perceive it this is the new now this is the the reality and how can I respond to that reality without losing the vision that we can create those safe spaces that I know is possible because as you've mentioned you know I know they happen in my the the spaces in the trainings I know that folks like yourself you know that have come to the trainings are rippling it out in probably even like a greater way that I I can because everybody finding finds their style and you know they move from their blueprint because they trust that connection and I you know I'm just like so proud of of our students of this this trauma informed community that you're part of and I know you know I'm just like oh wow you know um it's like we're just doing this together and all these people are doing it in such a beautiful incredible way spreading this into the world so you know it gives me that drive it gives me that fire that fight to to create more of those spaces to you know inspire to give people tools and education not just from the level of the mind but I think a direct experience is really important yes for students because then they're like oh wow you know this is really the felt sense of safety you can feel it yeah you can feel and this is this is what it's like and this is where what I know is possible and so therefore I know how to lead from that place whole space from that place I can recognize that experience in my participants because I'm so familiar with that within my own body within my own experience so yeah yeah do you feel like and I feel like I already know the answer to this but for our listeners um do you feel like to hold a trauma informed space for another person that you also be able have to be able to hold that trauma informed space inside of yourself first before you can go and then offer it to someone well I think that the answer is it depends.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Sure that's always your answer I love it always but in this case in this particular answer it I think that it depends because I think that being human and when we work with trauma it is not like black and white of course yeah right so when I hear this like being able to hold it in yourself yes I think that some level of that is to to be if you want to be a facilitator that walks in integrity you need to have a foundation of that like to be able to kind of in a way walk the path you know have the commitment like this is something that I commit to you know that I'm on the journey of being compassionate to my towards myself you know all of the the different things attuning to myself you know attending to my imprints um but I don't think that you know like if we were all like super trauma informed then it means like we're like awakened and enlightened and it's just not it's just like being human is not like black and white like that.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one the one thing that I really want to name is the layers of support that I talk about in my in my trainings that is really important to in with when we're walking the path to have like the right layers of support to to help us you know in our journeys because as I mentioned trauma has many different imprints you know it's societal it's cultural it's intergenerational it has for me personally you know not uh being an Asian person we've got a lot to do with race you know it's born in a boy class family a lot to do with class like there's so many different kinds of layers yeah the imprints are gonna come up all the time we're gonna go through these waves of like okay I'm very connected to my blueprint at the moment you know yeah and I'm like very trauma informed right now and I'm really tending to my parts and I'm really embodying and then the adversity comes and then it throws us off our path and you know these parts that we need to tend to and that we work with and that we you know that we need they arise and then the blueprint kind of not like the blueprint goes away because it never does but like these parts come into the forefront because they need our love they need our attention you know they need our healing and I think that the layers of support are very important when that comes in but when you're in that space where you know those parts are there it doesn't mean that you can't you know work with other people of course yeah right it means that you're tending to yourself you know you have boundaries around you know whatever journey that you're going and we're being present to the person that we're offering service and care to um without leaving you know ourselves and what we need to tend to behind which is why I feel like layers of support in this journey of being of service is imperative you know it's really essential couldn't do my work without um the layers of support that I have in my life and to also know that the journey has no end.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's just part of self-actualization you know the self-actualization process that Jung talks about is just part of that and we go through cycles of that like the cycles of the seasons like sometimes we're in summer yes you know and it's like whoa I think that I'm healed and uh you know these grip this grip of our imprints are not as strong as they were before and I and then sometimes something happens and we enter the autumn then we go into the winter you know and we go oh you know I've worked with that part but you know maybe that part I have completely split off and disassociated from and now I have to tend to that part and then you go down you know into that descent and then again there's a new beginning because that part you know has gotten what it needs to in order to heal and then we move into the next cycle.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always going to be like that.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so which is why my answer is it depends.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah no that makes sense and even as you're naming that that dance I'm like yep I'm I'm aware of that dance.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about the the seasons a lot here and and working with the cycles and I find the healing process to be very cyclical.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah thanks for sharing all of that exactly yeah yeah well I'm curious I love when these conversations work out this way you've you've already answered so many questions I haven't even had to ask you just you've just shared them but what I am curious about I know in a lot of your work you talking about um you teach about the importance of slowing down and titration and I'm wondering if you could for our audience talk about why that is so important for the healing process and for the therapeutic process yeah sure um I would love that I would really love to to spend more time talking about this okay so I think the way that I look at trauma is that you know there are as I mentioned many different levels of trauma very many different layers of trauma and you know I think that there's a lot of research to show that trauma is really something which is physiological you know is in in is in our bodies um like for example when you get anxious you say oh there are butterflies in my stomach you know like when our feel our emotions you know this is this is it you know like you know trauma is not happening over there necessarily in here in your brain and your mind is actually happening in the totality of who you are and this body is your vehicle consciousness is your vehicle of awareness everything happens in this home of the body and in the culture that we have with screens and you know and so on and so forth or yeah just the way that we view the body um we see it as like very mechanical like the body is just an instrument that you know we put a lot of um I think focus in our heads and our minds and our brain that we're very smart in you know in an intellectual way or you know so on and so forth and I think that the mind is a very good servant but it's not really a very good master and I think that's not my quote I don't actually remember who said it but I'm gonna stick it with us I'm taking it yeah I'm sharing it um and the the way that we I think that we live our lives is very kind of mind focused is very brainy it's very head for heady and it goes very fast and our culture is very fast there is this like importance of going forward and going as quick as fast as possible you know we live in a very competitive culture but when we lead from that place which is very fast which is very quick um we abandon and we neglect the slower parts of ourselves which is the heart especially no emotions vibrate on a time signature that is much slower than the mind and thoughts then there is also the level of um the body as well which is a lot kind of slower so if you really pay attention to your nervous system um if you pay attention to the sensations of your body it's kind of a slower it's a slower time signature is a slower vibration and the parts of our ego parts of our psyche parts of our cells even our blueprint you know they're here in the body and I always say that the body is a truth barometer because whatever you feel whatever is your truth you're gonna notice that inside if you pay attention if you listen if you know those tools of like deep embodied listening it will always tell you the truth you know in the moment of what's happening how it how how are you feeling on the inside which is that connection to ourselves is not just with our thoughts it's really to that inner landscape which is inside the body and that is also where that inner healing intelligence resides.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just in the organ brain it is in every cell of your the trillion trillions of cells that you have in your body they all hold this light they all hold this intelligence you know which is in all nature that knows exactly what to you know do in order to grow and to thrive and survive and we're missing that if we are only going very quickly and we're only connecting to the intelligence which is in the brain we miss that we miss that somatic what I call somatic intelligence.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the slowing down really is essential because in order to connect with that inner landscape we need to kind of slow down to body time uh we need to kind of slow down the mind so that it moves out of a place of like thinking incessantly to a different kind of mind.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like for example in the yogic philosophy there are many there are three different minds you know the three different aspects of mind and one of them is really around like awareness to switch from that mode of thinking words thoughts you know to a place of being aware you know of what's happening.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: It is a different kind of um consciousness which the mind is really the instrument and it's only when we slow down that that we can also start to connect into a different kind of relationship with the different parts of ourselves that might be in the body um like our grief like our anxiety like you know parts that are that feel abandoned that feel insecure um because what might be in the mind is this inner critic that's like this doesn't feel good why are you feeling like this you've done heaps of work in yourself you're still feeling bad blah blah blah blah blah blah blah that's predominantly in the mind that's like the inner critic just like takes over and just gets so vicious.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah but when we can just kind of go into the places in the body let's say you know the place of insecurity in our belly and shine that sense of awareness and when we slow down we start to connect to um other aspects of who we are that are not so like mind dominant.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you know that are more kind of somatic dominant that were maybe created when we yeah in those pre-verbal years you know of of how of our our growth and development so this is just one of the reasons a couple of reasons why it's so important to slow down because healing really comes from the connection that you have with yourself that loving connection that you have with yourself when you can really listen to these parts not just listen to them but really offer them listen to the repair that they need that they need in order to kind of find freedom from that suffering you know and if we don't slow down and we don't connect we don't listen in the right kind of way there's a way of listening to it you know if you listen to it but then you say oh well you're not good enough and I don't want to listen to you anymore and like why are you here then that's not healing for the part and then that part is going to feel more sad.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you listen with curiosity if you listen with compassion if you slow down um and listen in that kind of mode of awareness you know it's just like so that's that's really what these parts need and that's really where they start to break free from the shackles of of pain and suffering which I really hope you know that humanity um yeah breaks up from and and find that balm and you know uh that support.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah beautifully said yeah thank you for for explaining it in that way we talk a lot about slowing down here and you know I I thought that I um lived more slowly until I began doing this work and I was like oh I really do need to slow down and it's something that I'm always meeting within myself because as you've named here it's it's not just in our bodies but it's in the world around us and everything around us is encouraging us to to go and and go and produce and perform and get there faster and work harder and it's it's the sea that we're all swimming in at least in Western culture.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious is it like that in other parts of the world too that you travel to um I think it's different for different parts sure yeah but I also want to name that you know in certain kind of I think with the global majority and most you know there's like different kinds of trauma imprints and different kind of uh resources um but when there is trauma people will want to go into their heads right because it's uncomfortable to be in the body and I think that I've seen that um working with every culture you know every uh every everybody because that's just part of our physiology I see different levels of resistance to slow down and being in the body for sure.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in the rest Western world there is more resistance I would say because it's uncomfortable um you know you're really going against the grain of the conditioning that is in the culture and with certain cultures that are more kind of connected to the body also is like you know there's there's so many things around like class and education and um the different you know um conditionings in each community But what I have noticed is just a less resistance.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when I'm talking about you know the connection to the body, um, in Asia, they will be like, oh yeah, I get that, you know, and then there is more of a like a more of a um more of a like a like oh yeah, I can do that, you know, you know, like I can, you know, because I work with a lot of uh like for example the sex trafficked survivors, like they've never had an education, you know, but they have a body and they feel, you know, they they know their feelings, they can feel in the body.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when we work on the level of like, what are you noticing right now?
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_00: They can say that, you know, I'm putting a lump in my throat, you know, I'm feeling this sometimes it's easier because there's not so much resistance with with the intellectual mind, you know, that that wants to kind of control everything, or it's just not normal in in that culture.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting to hear it in that way, that it's not necessarily that it's different, it's that there's just less resistance to slowing down and and being more in the body.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: So like, you know, when I'm working with white, um like folks that come from a Western culture, yeah.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't necessarily have to do with like race, I think.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it has to do with culture and conditioning.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have to like spend so much time working on like protectors, you know, that instead of you know, like we spend five, six, seven, eight sessions just working with the protect the protectors, the resistance of you know the fears and concerns if we go into the body, we connect to you know what's really here, like what's gonna happen, you know.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people I think in the Western world uh struggle with that.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of resistance to go into the body.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of I have a lot of empathy and I really understand that, you know.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it makes sense, you know, depending on our history and what we've gone through, like you've already named.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes the body can feel really uncomfortable and sometimes painful.
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and these are the things that we do to to really keep ourselves safe.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I've really come to understand that.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and really appreciate that uh about my mind and about the different ways in which all of my protectors and parts try to try to just keep me safe.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know we're approaching the hour and we can start making our way towards the end of the episode.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And this episode is actually airing during Virgo season, and for Virgo season, we're focusing on service, which is one of the reasons I was inspired to have you on today.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And also this connection to the earth, which I know is something that's that's really important to you.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious, as we're kind of approaching the end of the episode, what might be some practices that people could maybe begin to explore if they wanted to begin to deepen their connection with their bodies and the earth?
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because to me, I've noticed that as I've connected with my body, it's kind of inherently connected me more to the earth because earth is body.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_01: At least that's the way I see it.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, I think that the first thing that we could, I think, really do to connect with our body is to slow down.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're like what I just said.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like slowing down, you know, finding moments of slowing down, being curious.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: If there is resistance around the slowing down, you know, like being curious about what that resistance might be.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when we do kind of slow down, say hello, sometimes it's all we have to do is to say hello, you know, to the body, to acknowledge that the body is here, you know, to to actually feel the body, you know, the container of your body, whether it's with your hands, maybe it's in a hug, you know, with a loved one.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and to prioritize, I think, um, time for that.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for me, I think a lot of this work with plant medicine comes from the devotion of the plants.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just not just certain kind of plant medicines that bring you in different altered states of consciousness, but really with all the plants.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: All plants, right?
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're going to the Amazon, it's like a pharmacy out there.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that deeper when you know what I understand from my journey with plants and plant medicine is that these plants are shaped really by the intelligence of the earth.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's shaped by an intelligence of life.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's like our somatic intelligence, you know.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about that being um the inner healing intelligence that heals everything, you know, a cut, trauma, you know, whatever wound, whether it's like mental or psychological.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think just kind of spending, you know, uh time in nature, um, prioritizing time in nature where we can start to open up to maybe the intelligence which is here on the earth.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And to bring it deeper into a place of service, like to really support the preservation of the earth, you know, whether it's through donating to a charity, you know.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, there's just so much out there that we can help, you know, with um really taking care of the earth because you know, it really needs to be taken care of, and it it can't survive without our support because so we don't our culture doesn't care about the earth very much, but just all about taking, taking, taking.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part I mean, part of this counter community and spiritual community is taking action to give back to the earth.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the you know, it's all very individual for each person, but um go out and plant tree, go out and join, you know, pick up litter from, you know, I think the beach or something, but or organize something like that.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do something that will support and heal the earth because it's not going to heal unless we put action and we need lots of people to put lots of action into it to change it, you know, back into balance.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that kind of goes back to that thread of karma yoga that you mentioned towards the beginning.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how it's it's without action that it's just empty words, and so we really have to do something.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: We have to do something and change our perspective around reciprocity, like it's a really around reciprocity.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are we consuming?
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: How can we, you know, small way, you know, um give?
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Give, give to, and this earth is our home.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So how can we yeah, give back to the whole our home as much as we're taking from it?
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and she gives to us so generously and unconditionally, and how can we return that back to her?
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have maybe just one more question, and then I'd love to hear a little bit more about any upcoming trainings you might have and how people can connect with you.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, curious for um someone who is maybe curious about trauma-informed care, whether um, let's say it's more on the receiving end, if someone has kind of been on their healing journey and and maybe feeling that missing piece, or perhaps maybe someone is curious to explore plant medicine, what are some first steps that you would recommend or offer before someone dives in?
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are you talking about like finding for folks who find trauma-informed support or like um or plant medicine or even like a trauma-informed plant medicine support?
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 1:16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think screening is very important, you know, um, and the watching out for red flags.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_00: There are quite a lot of, I would say there are a lot of red flags out there, um, in especially in the plant medicine space.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that is important to have a to notice if if you're deciding to sit with a person, how much care do they show towards you?
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_00: How much interest do they show towards you?
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been to so many plant medicine ceremonies where I don't even know the facilitator.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know the person, you know, like I just get an invitation, an email, and then you know, you just kind of go go into you, you know, go to this experience.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I would kind of be really wary about that, you know, um, if you're not having a uh yeah, like to really know who the organizers are, at least so because sometimes, you know, you also get visiting um facilitators coming from overseas, right?
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes they're indigenous, you know, sometimes they don't really speak the language.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_00: There are many different contexts where you know um these these circles happen.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would be wary if a person like reaches out and says, Can I have a conversation?
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can I schedule a call?
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if the facilitator or the organizer says no, I think that that would be like the first kind of warning sign.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would say to someone that it might be important to reflect on what you need in order to feel safe in an experience and to know that your needs are never too much.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that you really matter, you know, your sense of safety really matters.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it is absolutely okay and highly advisable to have a conversation with you know the person that's leading or the retreat center, or you know, your therapist, your psychedelic therapist, around your history, and also you know, your sensitivities and what helps to create safety for you, and you know what you can um what kind of layers of support that you might need on the different levels, like physical, emotional, you know, spiritual, mental.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And to watch, like if uh a facilitator gets defensive, you know, if they uh are not understanding of what you're kind of sharing with them, I would say that that's a huge red flag.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, another thing as well that I think is important for uh newcomers.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was just at the tip of my tongue and then I forgot.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So just bear with me.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course, take your time.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It happens, then you can go away.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this was like a very important one.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I got it.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really to listen to your body as a truth barometer because I think that for like folks like myself who you know come from a background of adversity, like CPTSD, or if you've experienced any kind of abuse or even like neglect, um the no the norm is not trusting your body, you know, the norm is not trusting your wisdom, the norm is not trusting yourself, you know.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: There might be a lot of parts that says, oh, well, that's not true, you know, I don't feel safe, but you know, sometimes our tendency might be to dismiss the parts that don't feel safe.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_00: When you kind of get something, something's just not feeling right.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't mean like the facilitator is a bad person, it just means that their style of facilitation might not be the right style for you, right?
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Or the way that they're saying something, or they might like that their tone, you know, the way that they're saying it just doesn't feel quite right, it doesn't feel quite safe.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and sometimes, you know, I think that more often than not, in these cases of abuse with clients that I see, it's like they knew that, but it's like the tendency and also the history is for them, is that that has been dismissed by other people in the past, yeah, and that's kind of been internalized where they don't kind of heed those kind of warning signs at first, where it's like this person isn't safe, or the space that they create is not just not the right space for me, like doesn't feel just right, you know.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for those people out there that are listening, um, really my suggestion is to really pay attention if if it doesn't feel right, if your body there's parts of you that don't feel safe, I would say I would lean on on saying no to that.
• 1:21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, having a conversation with the facilitator because it might be a blind spot for facilitator and that's absolutely okay.
• 1:21:59
  SPEAKER_00: And just noticing how they respond to that, you know, if they're like, thank you so much for letting me know, you know, like, yeah, how can I adapt, you know, how I work in a way that feels just right for you.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_00: If if that's not that open kind of like if the person, if the facilitator takes it personally, then they're not really professional, you know, it's not it's they're not really in that position to I think lead the session in a way that feels safe.
• 1:22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, those are really wonderful things for people to to look out for.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, there are so many more.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I guess maybe I'd be curious.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so just one thing to add to that.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I actually have a resource.
• 1:22:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I was just wondering.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of yellow, I have a resource of like yellow flags, yes, green flags, and red flags that is going to be part of um that you can download for free.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I'm actually starting a new campaign at the moment that's going to launch soon, and it would be helpful for me to share it in this podcast.
• 1:23:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I'm starting a campaign with some other organizations such as ISEES that are based in Europe, um, around prevention of sexual abuse in psychedelic spaces.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the name of the campaign is called Sacred Not Silent.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um part of this campaign that that we're doing together is to offer these resources around um these you know, green flags, yellow flags, orange flags, and red flags for facilitators.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: So when that's launched, maybe Rivai can share that with you, and you can share it with uh this audience too.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they'll find it helpful.
• 1:23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would love that.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be great.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's um really important to get that sort of information out there.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it kind of ties into um an idea that I had.
• 1:24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know I had mentioned I'd share it with you today, but maybe we could talk about it another time.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but just a way to just make people more aware of situations.
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think education can be really empowering once we have the understanding we can choose differently.
• 1:24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd be really curious to see the ripple effect.
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what really keeps me going sometimes is that I I trust that the work will that I may not live to see the full impact of the work that I do, and you may not live to see the full impact of the work you do after you are gone.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_01: There, these ripple effects will still be going, and and who knows what will come out of it.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what really keeps me going.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:24:48
  SPEAKER_01: If people wanted to connect with you, Atira, what would be the best way?
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And do you have any um upcoming trainings or anything you'd like to offer to the audience?
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So folks can jump on my website, which is at com.
• 1:25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they can come connect to me on Instagram, uh, which is at Atira Tan.
• 1:25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that I would love for some of the folks in the audience, if this has resonated for you, to yeah, join one of, yeah, to explore some of my um trainings, my offerings, uh, some of my programs.
• 1:25:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I am very passionate about two things to educate like plant medicine facilitators in, you know, that approach of creating that safety, but not just that, but really kind of giving tools around uh facilitators to understand what to do around trauma.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when trauma imprints arise, you know, in psychedelic experiences, how can we hold that space?
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like what kind of to identify repair to understand our role and response responsibility in that space.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a trauma-informed plant medicine facilitator program, which I think that you you've done and been part of.
• 1:26:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then another part is also around um integration.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that integration for me is like super important.
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's a part of the psychedelic journey that is often overlooked.
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say that I've experienced probably more, I have experienced more trauma resolution in the face of integration than I have actually in these altered states.
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:26:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's really when the embodiment, like the altered state, is an experience and it can open certain doors.
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes in psychedelic experiences, it's not complete.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:26:42
  SPEAKER_00: It opens a door, but it's there's no resolution that happens, you know, the insights and so on and so forth.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a somatic plumess and integration program, which is a foundation program, which is 50 hours.
• 1:26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the moment, I'm also running a nine-month mentorship program, which is an advanced training, so more kind of in-depth, um yeah, month-by-month journey for um for practitioners, which will really create, you know, help to create like confidence, uh, really give you those layers of support that you need as a psychedelic professional.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that you're not kind of stumbling in the dark, you know, going like, oh, you know, uh, what am I gonna do when this arises, that arises, really giving you very solid um sorry, tips and tools, but also for you to go on your own healing journey, you know, uh, because we're always doing that in tandem, aren't we?
• 1:27:43
  SPEAKER_00: I guess.
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, really to support that part of your journey as well, yeah, so that you can be more resourced when you work with others.
• 1:27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the support, like you said, it's it's everything.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, oh, thank you so much, Atira, for your wisdom and for your lived experience and for your generosity and for your service to not just to your clients and um, of course, to me, but to the world and just the light and the love and the compassion and the softness that you bring.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_01: I truly believe it's the medicine that we all really need, and you really are one of my greatest teachers.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for for being here today.
• 1:28:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an honor.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, River.
• 1:28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, your words mean so much to me.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:28:33
  unknown: Of course.