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Exploring Place in Regal Rome with Neil, The Ancient Blogger - Part 1 · The Partial Historians

• Dr Rad 0:12 Welcome to the Partial Historians. Dr G 0:15 We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Dr Rad 0:20 Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. Dr G 0:30 And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Dr Rad 0:41 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 1:03 Hello, and welcome to this special episode of the partial historians. I am Dr. G. Dr Rad 1:10 And I am Dr. Rad. Dr G 1:13 And we are super thrilled to be joined by a special guest today. Welcome, Neil. Neil - History Hound 1:21 Hello, thanks very much for having me on and call me special, which is something I haven't heard for years. Dr G 1:27 We meant it in a good way. Neil - History Hound 1:28 Oh I'm sure it was. Dr G 1:31 So Neil holds a MA in classics and history from Birkbeck, University of London, and is the founder of the popular Ancient Blogger website. And for the last six years, he has also been the host of the Ancient History Hound podcast. So Neil has experience in ancient Roman reenactment. And yes, he does own a suit of legionary armor, we're so glad you've already asked. And he also engages in school outreach programs, bringing the ancient Roman world to life for the next generation. And we're super thrilled to be sitting down and talking today about a little bit of typography when it comes to ancient Rome, and thinking about exploring place, and particularly going right back into the Regal period of ancient Rome to do it. So welcome, Neil. Neil - History Hound 2:23 Thank you. Yeah. Just on that, yeah. It's great to be able to go out and visit schools and do some volunteering work at schools wearing Roman armor. My back does not forgive me. Oh, it's, it's great fun. And it does make a difference. Because sometimes, I think if you introduce history, ancient history, to new people in a different way, that whatever age, I think it disrupts some preconceptions, because one of the questions I've asked, I asked, when I've had guests on my podcast, how did you get into ancient history? And for the most part, people tend to think, Oh, I was translating Cicero at the age of five on my father's knee. The reality is, I think, I think the one of my guests that she said that it was because she watched 'The Mummy'. And it can be it can be stuff like that. So it's so important that people realize that it's somewhat the sometimes the incidental actions and events in your life that can lead you to becoming really fascinated by a particular subject. And so yeah, so it's good to be able to try and help with that. This is my only my second time I think I've ever been on a podcast that first time was right at the beginning. So I hope I'm a I'm a good guest. Anyway. So thanks again. Dr Rad 3:33 Well, we're predisposed to like you is to teachers, I think it's very admirable that you are volunteering your time in such a way. Dr G 3:41 Yes, I really hang out with children when they pay me. Neil - History Hound 3:44 The I got to be honest with you, I don't know how the teachers do it. I always say that to them. But I get bossed around by a bunch of kids for the best part of sort of three hours or so. I've got I'm visiting a school in a couple of weeks. And we've got to the invasion of Britain for a bunch of nine year olds, which is easy and difficult, because there's some really interesting stuff there. But at the same time, it's quite difficult because you want to avoid the gruesome things, which is fundamental to what the Roman army did. So it's talking about other areas, and also try and develop extension exercises and things that different kids will do, generally trying to spread the enjoyment of the subject. And that's something I've always tried to do through my podcasts and everything else is just trying to get people who haven't necessarily come across the topic interested in the topic, and they can feel like an input because after all, ancient history is about people. And we sometimes forget that there. We have our basic emotions, and they would have been exactly the same in antiquity. People got up in the morning, they got worried about their jobs people had, you know, loves their breakups and everything else. And I'm just finishing on that there was an episode. I'm not gonna keep plugging my episode, by the way, but I went I just went I went through the oracle at Dodona. They found a bunch of lead sheets and the where people had written down their questions. And the questions, generally speaking, though, came from all sections of society, including women, which is great, because we don't have a great deal about that kind of information. But it was questions such as did, should I get a new job? Should I change my career? Should I move? Should one of them we should have an affair? There was quite a lot of can I? Who do I pray to to make my kids better? But these were genuine questions that people have today. So again, it's about trying to tie in what was ancient or what is modern and sort of shortening the distance between the two? So yeah, there we go. Anyway, we'll be we'll be talking about, as he said, about Rome, early Rome, about the typography and how important the typography was, and some of the spaces and areas in that and some of the discussions we can probably have that might throw a different perspective on things. So yep, looking forward to I've got my notes, and I'd be doing lots of research. So fingers crossed. Dr G 5:54 Excellent, excellent. Well, we're pretty excited to explore this topic. Because as you know, we wrote a book recently on the Roman kings, and we're really focused on the human character side of it. So very much like you were saying, engaging with school children and bringing that curiosity to the subject. It's the people factor that really drives a lot of the work that we do as well. And so I think taking this different geographic angle is really interesting way to think about the whole thing from a totally different perspective. So one of the things that stands out when you think about Rome, and usually something that people tend to know about Roman geography, if they know anything at all, is that it's got seven hills. This is apparently a very special number gets bandied about a lot. But in the traditional foundation story, we have Romulus and Remus, and they start on different hills. And there are only two guys, one of them set up on the Palatine Hill, and one of them set up on the Aventine Hill. And I'm interested in what might be the significance of these two locations? And what could we know about them in this really early period, if anything at all. Neil - History Hound 7:06 A great start, great place to start. Just before I go any further, I should say I bought your book downloaded onto my Kindle and loved it, it was very, very good. So if anyone's listening out there, this is not a promo, this is a genuine review, I really enjoyed it, because it does that thing of engaging people. It's got some really interesting stories in there. And it's got some interesting questions as well, which I think you should always be able to take away from a book. Before I start on the whole seven hills thing. I want to just cover a few basics about that, because people always think of hills and Rome, but not necessarily in the context of the causality and the importance of them. So to start with having hills was generally a good idea, because hills mean hillside forts, or hill forts, which means you've got a very good defensive position. That was a really popular thing. At that time the Etruscans are on it, you can pretty much go anywhere around the Mediterranean people like higher places because they're easy to defend. You can stick a wall around them, you can stick the important buildings in there, hey, presto, life is good. Where it becomes even more interesting and significant for Rome, or the area which became Rome is the actual location of Rome, because Rome is in Rome, it is at a affordable part of what you could fold the river Tiber around Rome. Why is that important? Well, if you think of the Italian peninsula, the Italian peninsula is quite narrow. It's around 180 kilometers, which is about 111 miles. I did a bit of working this out. And apparently that's the distance from Sydney to Mollymook. And it's also the distance from- Dr Rad 8:39 Wow, thank you for the local reference. Neil - History Hound 8:41 That's right. Yeah, I looked it up. And I always liked spending time on maps. And it's also if you're in Chicago, that's a distance from Chicago to Lafayette. So it's that it's quite narrow. And the problem or advantage the Italian peninsula has is down the center of that you've got the Appenine Mountains. So generally speaking, if you're traveling up and down Italy, you either do it on the eastern coast, or you do on the western coast, if you're doing on the western coast. At some point, you will have to pass and and traverse as it were the Tiber River. So just to just come back to it all. You've got a set of defensive positions right next to an incredibly strategic, important location. On that side on the western side of the app and ions. This is a great place. People sometimes ask why did Rome develop? Well, it developed for a number of reasons, and it achieved what it did for a number of reasons. But these were all fundamentally underpinned by the fact of where it was at this great starting location. And if anyone's listening who has ever played Civilization, the computer game... Dr G 9:41 I was gonna say I was just having a Civ 6 moment. Neil - History Hound 9:45 This is this is the ideal start position. This is riverside, plains, hills, your part is great. You've even in theory got some salt then nearby, which just makes yeah, the ears will be picking up for anyone who plays civilization on any of the versions. It's just a great start position. So that was really important. And we'll come shortly to the whole issue of the Tiber and how that changed and shifted, because that's really important to understand with early Rome. So you've got these these two hills, you've got the Aventine and the Palatine. So we start with the with the Palatine. The Palatine is very interesting in the way that it's handled. mythologically speaking, because it seems to have a prequel because it's linked to a number of events that happen prior to Romulus and Remus. But it also stitches in nicely with certain points in their lives. It stitches in with sort of Rites of Passage, which I'll get to shortly. So what you have, apparently, according to I think it's both Dionysus Halicarnassus and Livy. They both refer to Pallantium. Pallantium was a city or a small settlement whatnot, in Arcadia in central Greece, and it said that originally, Evander and some other Greeks came over, and they settled there. And I completely agree with the point you made in your book, Dionysius of Halicarnassus sees Greeks everywhere. He just did to him everything is greek. Dr Rad 11:05 I see Greek people... Neil - History Hound 11:07 Yeah, totally. Totally. He's, everything is great. Yeah, they just did it with a different language a bit later on. And in Pallantium, you have this initial settlement. Now that ties into Pallantium and Arcadia. Why is that interesting? It's interesting because Arcadia in the Peloponnese was an odd place. And it had some odd characters, even by the standards of Greek myth. One of them was King Lycaon. Now, people might have heard of him. King like Rome was famous because he did that one thing that you should rarely never ever do. And that's try it on with a God. He invites Zeus round for lunch, and to test if he's really that clever, he feeds in human flesh, which is just the more I mean, if you think that's a bad idea, just a map, just remember that Zeus was Zeus Xenia was an aspect of Zeus whereby he was the god of good good guests and hosts. So incredible amount of importance was based on being a good guest and a good host, presumably serving them human human flesh, bad idea that somewhat sort of crosses the line a bit, and you're doing it with a God who is in charge of that particular element. Zeus does not take this well, as you might imagine, changes him into a wolf. Now on Mount Lycaon, which is in Arcadia you had as an altar to Zeus, which was an a very long ash altar. And there were lots of things said about it. Without trying to go on a tangent. If you've ever listened to episodes on any podcast I've done by myself on werewolves, and werewolf myth. That is the that is the point that you always arrive at because people say, well, that's where you had some sort of wolf based ritual. Now tying that back in, why is that? Why do you tie that in with with Rome? Well, it's not necessarily just a tangent. It's because Rome obviously itself has some form of wolf cult, it has a wolf association, and in fact, I think it's living again who says that Lupercalia the festival where men would run around naked and hit people with goat hide thongs originated from the Lupercal, the cave of the wolf on the Aventine. And in fact, there's the Lupercalia is a very interesting festival because it seems to be one that existed prior to Romulus and Remus. It probably had them both of them grafted on to it. It has two functions. It seems to be a lustral rite, that is a purification, rite. But it also has some sort of fertility basics to it. So it was one of these, one of these things that by the first century BC/AD, people are trying to work out what it may have looked like but the reality is, like many Roman things, including the Saturnalia, for example, it started out in something very different, and ended up with something quite, quite divorced or estranged from its origin, shall we say? And yeah, so you've got this right before Romulus and Remus rock up. When they do. That's where they, they end up as babies. They're washed up there in their basket, which was a bit of a trope in antiquity, and also speaks to the point of flooding in ancient Rome, which again, is an important thing that we'll come to. It's also the place where they have their auguries, so you may have heard of the story where Remus goes the Aventine and sports has many eagles he can. Romulus does it on the Palatine, he spots more he wins, he gets to found Rome, it's possibly the location as well of where Remus is killed. What is interesting is there are a number of different myths. We have different versions for it. We have the version where it's just a straight out fight, because the two brothers are just not going to go on mainly because they're brothers and that's what brothers tend to do, though probably not that extreme. But also because their Romans and Romans were very good at civil war. They were very good at infighting and again, we have to remember that many of these myths have been created and worked on in the later periods or several centuries afterwards. We have Fabius Pictor at the end of the third century BC as the first acknowledged Roman historian who's writing in Greek. And then you have Livy's and Dionysius of Halicarnassus writing centuries after that. So the reality is they're getting to a point where they're trying to work everything out retrospectively, and they're seeing what what works for them in the modern world. Rome was a place of a lot of inner tension. And we have a lot of civil wars. So of course, it made sense that brothers would fall out and perhaps that would lead to a very nasty end. So there's a fight there, where Remus ends up, ends up it ends very badly for him. But there's also an element there of and this is something I'd like to check in with with either of your good selves of the pomerium, of this sacred boundary, because it's one of those things that sometimes it's a bit of an overreaction. Romulus killed his brother, because he jumped over his wall. And he mocked his foundations when I've been around. I've been round to relatives' new conservatory. I wasn't that impressed? I was not that impressed with it. But they didn't murder me. And so why is that? Why, why did you have this extreme reaction? And I think the thing is, we don't get the context. So foundations, particularly those associated walls had a sacred element to them. You didn't, You didn't mock them, it was it would be the equivalent mean there is no great equivalence, but perhaps it would be going to a cultural location where you just considered it on its as a physical presence. So for example, going to Uluru and just go and ask just a sandstone feature without realizing that that is Uluru. That's that's much more than what it is. Perhaps, I was thinking of the Statue of Liberty, you know, that's just a statue. But you don't get the cultural connotations, or the cultural connotations around those around that wall around that area. What's that it was incredibly important. And so by Remus mocking it and jumping over, it was committing a real crime, which, you know, instigated that response from Romulus, in that context, it doesn't sound too bad, again, extreme, but Romanus, as well, as you'll find, as you well know, wasn't, wasn't the most temperate of individuals, he often reacted- Dr G 16:57 He was not a chill dude, Not a chill guy at all. Neil - History Hound 17:00 But bearing in mind how he grown up, I mean, his entire existence, and the myth prior to them, it's basically family members falling out and hurting each other in various ways. So again, this sits within this whole myth of, if you've got a relative, it's gonna go Game of Thrones at some point, it's as simple as just a case of when rather than if. And yeah, so we have that there's also and something I always go to, and I, I apologize for this, because I got obsessed with human sacrifice after doing an episode on it. Not so much obsessed. Actually, that's probably that might get that Dr G 17:30 That doesn't sound like a great way to phrase it. Dr Rad 17:34 I was gonna say, Yeah, I'd stop, right there. Neil - History Hound 17:36 Yeah, yeah, probably need to rephrase that. The, I found when I started looking and researching it, I saw it occurring more. Now, it occurs a lot in Greek myth, but they try and tidy it up. Great example, is Iphigenia, who's stolen away by Artemis, when she said to be sacrificed, and that was the idea of substitute sacrifice. So, you know, the Greeks do a kind of a good job of tidying up, though, occasionally leave it right in the open and just move on, such as Achilles in the Iliad, where he gets rid of the Trojan princess, and where Achilles is involved in the sacrifice of effort, you know, at the beginning, and where Achilles' involved in the sacrifice of Polyxena at the end of the Trojan War. So Achilles, yeah, he wasn't he wasn't particularly nice, or he had that element to him. But there is something of an argument to talk about how Remus dying is almost an essential requirement. Now, you can move that out into a conversation about how sometimes when cities were established large settlements, there is an argument that someone was ceremonially sacrificed to ensure the health of it, particularly around walls, Particularly around those liminal spaces. But I don't want to go into that too much, because I'm not entirely comfortable with the research on that I'm not that well acquainted to it. But when you look at the myth, and obviously, this is where I move fully within the realm of your respective expertise on this, the founding of the of the Republic, well, that was bloodshed that was that you have the death of Lucretia. You also have the death of Brutus' sons, you have these sort of repeated actions of if you're going to find something big, if you're gonna have this big, big setup, it requires a great cost. And that great cost can often be an individual being killed or being moved on as it were. So I think that's an important thing to notice about the Palatine. But there's also a good one Plutarch, Plutarch, it gives a more sort of amusing, and I wouldn't say he's throwing a bit shade but Remus gets annoyed at Romulus because he thinks he's cheated. Dr G 19:38 I love that version of the story. That's my favorite one. Dr Rad 19:41 I say I guess. Make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Neil - History Hound 19:46 Yeah, it's a bit of a strange competition. It's like me going right? That we're going to win a car. The three of us gonna win a car, you just got to think of the highest number, but we'll say in order and I get to go last. I'm not saying one. I'm just gonna say the highest and yeah, so it's also interesting as vultures will often we have associations of eagle with ancient Rome, particularly with Tarquin when he gets his cap snatched by an eagle. But these were vultures, which again, is it? People may not know that much, but a trivia impress your friends stand stand your relatives. So we have that the so that's where we come to the Palatine. It was obviously pretty much where Rome is founded, and it becomes an incredibly important location. And before I go to the Aventine. Have I missed anything on that you think? Or is there anything? Dr G 20:33 No I don't think so. I think there's something quite interesting about the idea of the blood sacrifice as a necessity, in terms of like establishing a sacral border. And what that means for other rituals that the Romans then participate in later on, for sure. And I think this extended narrative that has a way of connecting Rome back to Greece is something that Greeks across the ancient world would be very keen about, for sure. Neil - History Hound 21:09 Yeah. Yeah, it's very difficult to really understand Rome without considering it through the filter of Greece and the Mediterranean was a real cultural melting pot, people were constantly exchanging ideas, cultures, you had Greeks in the south of Italy, and Magna Grecia, the Etruscans, who were heavily influential on Rome, big Greek fans. In fact, if you're, I guarantee, if you're listening to this, and you have a favorite Greek vase, the chances are, it was found in an Etruscan tomb. That's why it survived. Dr G 21:37 They did love that stuff. It's everywhere there. Neil - History Hound 21:39 Yeah, when I, when I first started studying I just studied all those years ago, I couldn't get my head around it: But this is an Attic vase, but it was found ... what the heck was going to be? How did that work? And obviously, there's cultural transmission. But the stuff in Athens didn't necessarily survive as much. Or rather, if you're looking for, for an object to survive, you need to it needs to be in a tomb or somewhere away from everyone for a long time, and hopefully, dodge tomb robbers, and hopefully gets excavated, and it's still there in one piece. So the other thing about the Palatine is, when you're looking at the topography of Rome, it's quite important to understand where the hills were. Now I'm going to do a really basic thought experiment here, which is either going to fail or do well. You could see the looks on your faces. So when you think of the hills of Rome, the way that I try and do it is a clock face. And sort of, if you think at 12 o'clock, and going up north, you've got the field of Mars, that kind of thing. In the center of the clock face, you've got the Tiber which winds round from around 11 o'clock disappears around seven o'clock, and intersects with the Forum Boarium, which that's the main crossing point into Rome. At nine o'clock, you've got the Janiculum Hill, at six o'clock, you've got the the Aventine. And then you've kind of got that the Palatine just to the center just to the right sort of three o'clock ish, if you think of it like that. So if you're on the Palatine Hill, the Palatine Hill strategically is really important because you're right dead center on that crossing. So again, it is the most one of the most important hills, I mean, the Capitoline Hill is close as well. So is the Aventine Hill, they're not going to the Janiculum. These are not far from that that crossing. But if you're going to choose one first, you'd probably choose the Palatine Hill as being that initial place that you'd want to be. So again, we need to tie this in the myths into the sort of pragmatism of it all. Now I'm going to move to the Aventine. The Aventine Hill is interesting, mainly because it will it has an association with an unnecessary it's known right, so feel free to laugh with Cacus or Cacus, the giant who Hercules fights, and it's associated with him because again, you have a Hercules at Rome quite early on was certainly prior to Romulus and Remus. It also became a bit of a staging post, it became an emptying this is where people settle the Latins who were defeated on the anchors the third, fourth, fourth Roman king was given mixed up, a settles in there because he can't stop them anywhere else. So it's sort of a bit of a staging post overspill, that's where people are going to go and live. But the weirdest thing I found out about this when I there was something I hadn't realized. And again, I'm gonna defer to your expertise on this until the reign of Claudius in the first century AD. It was outside of the City's pomerium. This was not inside this, it was in there's discussion, it might have been enclosed by walls, but it wasn't inside the pomerium. And could you just for a moment just given because I've tried to find good definitions of what the pomerium was, but you able to just distill that if you can? Dr G 24:48 Yeah, so the pomerium is, because it's the sacral boundary, it is marked out physically in certain ways. But it is is not something that is a physical barrier as such, so there's marker points for it. We understand it through archaeological evidence. And in order to shift, it becomes a huge deal, because that would be expanding the sacral boundaries of the city. So that has to be a very deliberate choice. The Romans are fundamentally a highly religious and God fearing people. So they don't make decisions without consulting the gods on any level, it doesn't really matter what it is. Whether it's in your home, whether it's in public, whether it's going to war, the gods have to approve, they need to feel that sense that their relationship is right with the gods. And so the pomerium is both an indication of what is inclusively believed to be part of sacral Rome, versus what is considered to be foreign and outside. So in the worst case scenario, it's not the physical walls of Rome that ultimately need to be upheld and defended, although they're very important, but it's making sure that that sacral boundary is never violated. So having the Aventine outside of that for a very long time, is conducive to the sorts of things that you're saying in terms of people coming into Rome, when they're slightly foreign. And they're considered to be migrant populations, they settle in the Aventine, because they're allowed to be there. And they're allowed to worship their own gods there without any problems. As soon as they cross that sacral boundary, it becomes an issue. You can't have foreign gods inside the pomerium. So everything to do with a multicultural life, which Rome increasingly becomes known for is going to be happening at those bleeding edges around the outside of the pomerium. And so having the Aventine outside of that for a long time super useful and will become super useful for the Struggle of the Orders. And I'm using my flash rabbits. Dr Rad 26:57 I was I was going to say I remember thinking about this when we were talking about the second secession, the Aventine as a place in that particular narrative where there'll be an answer like, "You know what, screw you guys, we're not going to be proud of this thing anymore," became important. Dr G 27:13 "We're just gonna leave this whole town!" Dr Rad 27:16 "We're just gonna leave and we're going to go to the Aventine," Yeah. Dr G 27:19 Yeah, "This is not Rome anymore. The Aventine is its own place, thank you very much." Dr Rad 27:27 "Yeah, it's its own thing. It's got different vibes, guys." Neil - History Hound 27:31 I live in Brighton. And there's a bit of a thing with Brighton because it's alongside Hove. And I know if you've you might have heard of this. But there's a sort of thing where people, whenever they say, Oh, you live in Brighton people would always say I actually, Hove actually. And "Hove, actually" became its own little thing. It got printed on T shirts. And I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up in Brighton, so I'm not aware of it all that much. But when I first started to talk to people, where do you live? Well I live in Brighton but I actually live in Hove. But I'm not saying that to be that person who's "Actually, Hove," you know, that sort of thing. So we should get "Aventine, actually" T shirts. There we go. Dr G 28:08 Yeah, probably! Neil - History Hound 28:10 The idea of and I did a bit of obviously digging to work out why this might be so why wasn't wasn't included. And the general consensus in the sources seems to be no one actually knew. But they had some ideas. And there was a sort of historian who wrote called Aulus Gellius who write "Attic Nights", which sounds like sounds like saying you find on Netflix and not know if she'd watch in front of your parents. I don't know. It's not quite sure when there's and he said he wasn't sure he said there are a number of reasons however, he quoted Messala who was a consul back in 53 BC, and apparently according to Messala he said that it was because of ill owned birds. The point of when that augury was taken. Dr G 28:52 Right from the beginning Remus was wrong. Neil - History Hound 28:55 Yeah, it was it was abandoned, and the whole hill that he did, and somehow that that had some association with it. But there is probably a more practical reason for this. And for this, I need to go back to that clock face I did earlier. So as you remember, you've got Field of Mars around 12 o'clock. And then you've got around nine o'clock, you've got the Tiber, and then you've got the Aventine at around sort of six o'clock. Now, when it came to moving troops around the field of Mars was where you marshal troops early on in Rome. At that point, Rome was obviously conducting military activities in a number of locations, but a lot to the south. If you take your soldiers from that point south, you face a big problem. Because if you have to cross the pomerium, as I understand it, and again, this is this is something I'm not entirely aware of. You've got to do a bunch of sacrifices and general rituals to cross over the pomerium. So you'd be it's a bit like when I suppose in some cities where you have a zone where you have to you can't you know, drive between these certain hours or whatnot or your car needs to be this type of setup or perhaps it's just pedestrianized, so you need to cross it, you'd be crossing it twice. And that could really forestall an army because it could take time. However, if the Aventine wasn't in the pomerium, then you can kind of take your men down the side of the eastern bank of the Tiber. And they don't have to worry about that. And they don't want to go the other routes because the two other routes from the Field of Mars if there was a pomerium immediately to the South would mean well, you've got across the Tiber, well, you can't cross the Tiber south, you've got to go all the way north and finding a decent crossing point. If you want to go east you've got to loop north and east around the hills. It that that when you're moving a large number of individuals, and again the logistics the Roman army is always an interesting thing, perhaps more so than what they actually did. On the battlefield though (I never said that). You move the slowest move the slowest thing in your army is the fastest you move. And often this will oxen, oxen, don't sprint, they don't move very quick. So you could lose a good day or two just making that progression, albeit if you have to cross the pomerium. If the pomerium isn't to the south, you've got easy dibs going. It's much easier to move troops. So why does Claudius do it? Well, apparently Claudius does it for a couple of reasons. Primarily because he's so amazing and he's expanded the Empire. Also it doesn't really matter it no one apparently really was that bothered by it. Because Rome at that time if you're an army you weren't stationed at Rome you weren't station really near Rome, you were stationed on the on the borders. So it didn't really have that same impact in terms of army and I think it's one of those things he he has his his big thing that he does or a big thing and everyone's like Yeah, cheers. Thanks for that. Yeah Dr G 31:31 Whoooo Dr Rad 31:34 New area code - yay Neil - History Hound 31:36 Yeah, a really sad kind of a sad popper everything goes up in the background. And it's kind of just yeah, thanks for that. So yeah, so that's, that's primarily the to the to hills, or rather, that's the Aventine and that the Palatine. And it's interesting to see how I wouldn't say they necessarily take on the characteristics of their, of their forbearers, as it were, but there is something there to them. One is associated with everything about Rome, and how great it was. The other one is, yeah, well, and he's a bit weird. It's a sort of a black sheep of the Roman hills. Dr Rad 32:11 I like that idea. So this is actually a good segue for us because we were going to ask you a bit about something to do with Romulus and to do potentially with troops and that sort of thing. So as you know, Romulus seems to come to a sticky end on the Campus Martius. So let's think about how the Romans might have understood Romulus as connection to this place and his legacy later on, because as you as you've already hinted at, the Romans are kind of trying to sometimes fit pieces together retrospectively. Neil - History Hound 32:46 Yeah, it's really difficult as well, I think this is why I find the story of love the kings of the Regal period, so fascinating. Because it's a big disaster movie. That's what it is. It doesn't you know, it's not going well, you know, what's going to happen? They're not getting off the plane, it's, that's what's gonna happen. It's just how are they not gonna get off the plane? And sorry, if that sounded tasteless, by the way, but if you're gonna, if you're gonna put it within the context of modern day disaster movies, that kind of thing, this doesn't end well. And it's weird, because you have this internal tension in the narrative of isn't Rome, fantastic? Wasn't it founded, by the way, it's amazing. But also, it's not very good, because it ends really badly, because the thing that starts at all is ultimately a very bad thing, come come the seventh King. I mean, even if you make a good case for Servilius, the sixth king, he he's he does things, but he still acts in a sort of pseudo dictator fashion at points, because he does cheat the system. He doesn't have the proper elections and the interregnum and whatnot. It's just because everyone likes him that it's okay. So if you look at it from that the process is pretty broken by that point, in terms of how you elect a monarch, and what the monitor should be doing. And the idea of supreme power, and how it's wielded becomes a, you know, an issue, then it's not always just that when it's with the bad guys, and particularly the seventh King, it's more obvious because you were automatically not liking him. But it's one of those things that if your friends doing something that isn't morally good, you can be a bit more forgiving. But obviously, if somebody don't like doing it, well, then you're going to be entirely damaged. And I think that's that's what you have here. So it's interesting with a narrative of how how we move across with Romulus, and then you mentioned the Field of Mars, I find it and I again, it's laugh out loud funny when you hear the story of how he goes missing in the Field of Mars or alternatively is hacked to pieces depending on which you think's more likely, given that it's Rome, or we have Rome, where you never have political violence where it's always everyone's really happy with each other. And then afterwards, you have that senator appearing and telling the masses who are a bit worried about it. Don't worry, the ghost of Romulus appeared to me just mean no one else and told me don't worry, everyone, it's all good. Life is good. Don't kick up a fuss I've gone now be happy and that's it. But in terms of the actual location itself, nothing much happens. The Field of Mars in terms of have been developed until the late Republican period, simply because it's this big, marshy land, it's got lots of mosquitoes, very difficult to drain. And it's also useful. It's a useful kind of area where no one really knows what to do with it. Because you can have horse riding events there. They have some, they have a festival called the October Horse, which comes in later, I think, I don't think we can really date it to this period. But that that's linked to sort of horse races, and it doesn't enter work too well, to the winning horse. I should add, so I won't go much further than that. But in either case, it's a space that I think you've you've you said about how the promotion was important. This is outside so you can kind of anything, anything goes that you can get up to stuff. Dr G 35:44 Oooo you can get away with hacking someone. Neil - History Hound 35:45 Yeah, yeah. In theory, allegedly, allegedly, though, he know, he went up to heavens in a storm, because that's what you do. And I also found it interesting, because I think there and I haven't been able to get into going into this, but that's where you have the Theatre of Pompey, which is where Caesar met his end. So I think again, if someone listen to this, and they're tutting, I apologize. I didn't get a chance to look into this too much. But I know obviously, Caesar assassinated in the Pompey's Theatre, and I think that's where Pompey's Theatre was based. So if so you have two distinct events in Romans history where a a person in charge meets a rather unfortunate end, both in the Field of Mars. And it's also the only other thing that I can think of or found within the Regal period is it seems to have been the property of the seventh Quinctius Tarquinius Super-bus. Superbus obviously to have super bus because he's got a cape on. Dr G 36:41 Superbus, I believe is how the Latin would would take it, but Dr Rad 36:45 he's always Superbus to us. Neil - History Hound 36:49 Put a cape on him, he's fine. It that's apparently that's that was his land. And when we're gonna call it Livy says the after he was dealt with, they took it back and dedicated it to Mars. So exactly what he was likely to do with that began perhaps that's, that was his land, perhaps had something to do with the the army perhaps it had something to do with controlling. It's not an area around really needs to develop at that point, certainly within a legal period, they've got more important places, which we'll, we'll speak about in a moment. Yeah. So that's the that's the I think, the Campus Martius or as much as we can, much as I've got anyway to talk about it. Dr G 37:23 I mean, it's an interesting place, because it does have this famous sort of idea about it as this sort of area where people get together. And it's where a lot of voting happens later on. And things like that be precisely because it's outside the pomerium. But yeah, it's interesting that for the Romans, this idea that people could potentially be murdered, there doesn't necessarily mean that it changes the way that you engage with the space. And perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by something like that. I mean, that's true in the modern world, as well. as horrifying as that is if somebody is murdered in their home, for instance, it's not like the property will stand empty for all time, eventually, somebody will buy it, and it will be used again. So keeping on this sort of topic of violence for a moment, I think it's the Romans, it's not us, that's for sure. There is also the Tarpeian rock, which is this sort of infamous ledge that juts out from the Palatine [correction Capitoline!]. And you can still kind of make it out today, you certainly wouldn't want to be pushed off the top of it, it would definitely hurt. But it We're interested in how it comes to have that name. And this might be a bit of a Dorothy Dixer question, because I love the Tarpeian Rock. But also, why does it become so infamous? So you just done that thing of asking me a question or a subject you're an expert in and I'm gonna fail horribly. Now. I'm gonna fall from that ledge. You're not You're not. Neil - History Hound 38:50 Okay. Dr Rad 38:50 Not at all. Dr G 38:53 If you if you get close, we'll catch you don't worry. Dr Rad 38:56 Yeah, we also wrote that book a while ago. So the details are getting fuzzy. Neil - History Hound 39:00 Just gesture at me wildly, no one can see. Yeah, when we got the Tarpeian Rock, I think the Capitoline as I think it's as alleged that's it's on the the Capitoline, which is interesting, because where it's located is also near a couple of other places that we're talking about, which are also to do with imprisonment or disposal, as it were. The story goes back and the story is the I mean, when you talk about stories in ancient Rome, and you say that doesn't really add up there a plotholes. The story of Tarpeia is one of the more bizarre ones because it really doesn't add up. So the story goes that you've got the Sabines who've taken the Capitoline Hill, and they've taken the Citadel, this is a really important defensive position. There's lots of problems, and they've done so by being betrayed to the Sabines. And the person who does that is Tarpeia. It depends which version, the myth you read, but she's either the daughter of the main man or who's in charge there, or she, I think, in some instances been referred to as a Vestal. I think that's, that that might be another version of it. And she basically says that she likes what the signs have on the left arms, which are bracelets, golden bracelets. If you give me some of those, I'll let you in. And so it happens. But she is then crushed by the shields because the [leader] Titus Tatius at the time, he's got the best name second best name in the Regal Rome after Mettius Fufetius. Who's who should be in the cast of Cats. I don't know why. But when you read a name, something pops up. I visioned him as some someone from Cats. So yeah, Titus Tatius, he ends up - treats her as a traitor - because she is so betrayed that she doesn't want to pay her also could be because he's not gonna give her the golden arm bracelets. And he's, she then gets sort of crushed by shields, and then that that location takes its name from her traitor, being a traitor. And that's where people who betray their own state and do very, very, very bad things are held from it. What's quite bizarre about this story, even within the context is that there was actually a version which I think Dionysus of Halicarnassus talks about Lucius Piso. And he says, actually, they got it wrong, because she was what she was trying to do was disarm the Sabines. And so she was kind of doing, she was acting as double agent, "I'll let you in, but you just dropped the shields, lever shields, and I'll let you in." And then she would have presumably then told her father, whoever they were in command, and they would have been able to take out the sidelines easily. But it's a bit it's just a very odd. It's very odd myth by mythic standards, because there's so much internal tension. And there is a history of this sort of thing, in terms of people giving away unfortunately, betraying as it were, and being punished for betrayal, there was an individual forget their name who have betrayed a city to Achilles and she was killed. She was stoned to death because it's a case of well, you betrayed to me it's I can't trust you. So there are these sort of it belongs, I think white to a wider morality, tale of betrayal never ends well, as opposed to anything else. But I think it's also linked to an important point that you make in the book about how women are used, or women appear at really, really important moments within the legal history to make a statement about something or they use to make a statement. Dr Rad 42:23 Moments of crisis. Yes. Neil - History Hound 42:26 It can't Yeah, it can't be a man wouldn't betray them. And it had to be a woman who had betrayed and why would a woman betray them? Because of shiny things. And you look at that and just thinking, oh my gosh, it's just really? Dr G 42:38 Thanks, Rome. Thanks. Yeah, establishing the patriarchy in such a visceral way for us all. Dr Rad 42:43 It's a real vote of confidence. Neil - History Hound 42:46 Even even people from 1970s British TV would look at that and go, "Well, that's bit That's a bit harsh. We can't do that. That's, that's, that's too much for us." It's what the misunderstood heroine aspect, which I think is an important thing. We've also got this concept of bloodless execution. Now, one of the things that that is important, both that Rome and more so I think Greece that that's probably reflects more my study of it is the concept of pollution, miasma. The idea was that if you murdered someone, you are both polluted by the act, and this act could even extend to the objects themselves. In Athens, there was actually a law court that would prosecute objects used in murder. And those there were elsewhere. There's a story of a I believe it's in thesaurus or face us an island where there was a statue of a famous athlete. And it was a bronze statue. And every night, this guy turned up who hated this person, and hit it with sticks. And one day, it falls on him and kills him. Dr G 43:52 Serves him right, stop hitting it with sticks, man. Neil - History Hound 43:54 Yeah. There's a sort of it get out sort of, again, I don't know if people thought this might be a very nice reference, but Basil Fawlty, hitting the Mini with the branches. It's kind of a thing, and that they took the statute and got prosecuted by the deceased brother, and he got thrown into the sea. And we know about this because afterwards, they started suffering from various problems, harvest problems. And the Oracle of Delphi said, Well, that's because you need to recall all the exiles, and they recall the exiles, but it still kept happening. And then they said, Well, it's actually the athlete, you need to bring the athlete back. So they had to get fishing nets, go and find the statue and bring it back and stick it back into place. The point is that certain acts were both manifested pollution at Rome, not just and when we think of pollution, we think of it in the modern context, you think of fumes, you think of bloodstains, things like that, but it could be the act itself and having a top end rock, if someone's thrown from it, no one's actually killing you. Which sounds weird because obviously, you know, if I was to push someone off a cliff, I'd be convicted of murder. But the but the way it was seen so differently, it wasn't that you were sticking a sword in someone's head. or doing it in a more up to up close and personal manner. And it's also extended to how the how the Romans would sometimes deal with the defeated enemies that bring in that strangle them. So a lot of the execution What strange and so it What's strange in all of this is that you have the sort of the gladiators, you have the Colosseum and you have before it the Circus Maximus or other locations where you know, bloodshed is absolutely required. But it's a very different context. It's a very different space. So you've got this, this strange thing, and I again, I've got a question about the pomerium for you. Because technically, are you above the pomerium if you've been pushing a rock? So does this act still occur within and that's a thought exercise more anything else? Because there was paper, one paper I read and it suggested that you have these two spaces in Rome where people are disposed of or could be disposed of one of them is the Tarpeian Rock the other one is later becomes the Cacer or Tullianum, which we'll speak about. And in the in the one that's underground, people could be strangled in the one that's above ground people thrown from it. So, again, how does that interact with a pomerium? Because it's not happening on the ground? Is it still? Is it still affecting it or interacting with someone? I'm not gonna answer necessary expecting the answer on that. I just it was one of the things that came up and I thought, can I just throw them that one? They'll probably hate me for it. But Dr Rad 43:56 I look, I think this ties into Dr. G's interest in the sense of the way that Vestals are disposed of when they've been thought... Neil - History Hound 45:26 Oh, sorry. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Sorry. That was the best example. Why didn't I think of that? Sorry? No, no, Dr Rad 45:41 No, there was really no, I was just saying, Yeah, I think it's very much in Dr. G's realm of interest. Yeah. Dr G 46:39 Yeah. And I think it is a really interesting question. And it is one that I would want to think about more as well, because there is that sense in which the Romans do like creating scenarios where they can say that the gods kind of made the decision about that person's outcome, rather than themselves. And if you manage to convince somebody, either when you're putting them at a spear point, or whatever, to jump off that rock that's now in the gods' hands. And that would be then considered a naturally occurring death rather than one in which life has been taken by another human, and therefore the pollution doesn't happen. strangulation, I think would be a more challenging one to get the vibe, right for in terms of the moral justification. So I'm intrigued by that, because certainly, as a parallel to that, the situation with the Vestal Virgins was that the burial spot was always outside the pomerium, just just outside, so like, right on that edge, okay. And by having that underground chamber and providing a little bit of food and beverage, and then locking those women in, they could reasonably and morally claim that no person in Rome had killed that woman, the gods had decided that she had to die. Neil - History Hound 48:05 I know in theory as well, I suppose you're, you've got the world if the gods really liked her, they've come and saved her. Dr G 48:10 Well, exactly. She would have gotten out of there and presumably run away from the city, not come back. So did any survive? We don't know. Neil - History Hound 48:19 Yeah. There is there is a philosophical exercise or an exercise that was done by in rhetoric, apparently relating to this. So there, you have Quintilian, apparently, who talks about what happens if someone survives the form? And the argument is, do you take them back up and ask for them? And ask them? Do you mind? Would you take them back up and redo it again? Dr G 48:48 Yeah. Could you quite possibly, I'm sorry? Neil - History Hound 48:50 How awkward for us. This is really embarrassing from us. So can you help us out here? And there's also these types of sort of, I don't know if there's necessarily an answer to that thing. It was just one of those sort of rhetorical discussions that you had as part of training, because another one that was similar to this was that tyrants were forbidden to be buried in in the city. But if you're struck by lightning, apparently, you had to be buried wherever you were struck by lightning. So if a tyrant was struck by lightning in the forum, they would have to be buried in the forum, or don't you? And again, it's one of those there's probably not a right answer. It's just a sort of how you how you would argue and how you don't argue counters and stuff like that. So again, the other thing about the Tarpeian is that apparently that's what the hill was called before it was called to cancel. Yeah, and it was only changed. I left this, they they changed the name because they found ahead when they were digging for the temple, the foundation of the temple. Dr G 49:48 That head's pretty important. I think we need to change the name of this place. Dr Rad 49:53 It's a sign that Rome was meant to be the dominant place in the whole world... Neil - History Hound 49:58 I like the idea that it was found by someone and they're like, "Oh, I found this head." "Yeah, it looks like the guy you had an argument with in the pub last night." "Might be, no idea. I think what we do is obviously come from the gods we obviously meet need to change the name - doesn't look anything like that guy I had an argument with at the pub last night? No." Dr Rad 50:14 it's clearly a symbol of our domination. Neil - History Hound 50:18 Yeah. So yeah, that's I mean, I think I've covered some of the aspects to it. But it's just the way it looks. Now, I understand is very different, because again, it wasn't something that should be said, if you're walking around Rome, now you're walking around in incredibly different Rome, even to the point of going back to say, the first century AD, I think the current archaeological level is around 10 meters below the current level, in most obviously. So in some places, it won't be, but in other places it will be. And in fact, when we want to come to talk about the Tiber, even the Tiber itself is in a very different place to when it was and this changed throughout the Republican period as well, which is a point again, that I'll come to I got obsessed by the Tiber River after a while. I read so many reports and geological surveys and gosh knows what. Dr Rad 51:05 Well, you've given me a perfect segue here because the next thing we wanted to ask you about were bridges. So Rome's second king Numa is generally given the credit for building the first permanent bridge over the Tiber, known as the Pons Sublicius. Now, obviously, there are practical reasons that one would build a bridge over a river. However, this particular one also seems to have had very significant religious connotations for the Romans. So how was the Pons Sublicius entwined with Roman ritual practices in this early period? Neil - History Hound 51:46 Thank you. Thank you, right. Yeah, I got obsessed by the Pons Sublicius, because when I was reading up and doing research on it, to talk about the bridge, you have to talk about the river to talk about the river tie, but you've got to make a couple of points about it. The first is the river Tiber now is in a very different course to where it was even in archaic Rome. So in archaic Rome, the likelihood was that it was around 100 meters, where it bends round and comes into what is the Forum Boarium in that area, it was 100 meters further to the east. So if you think the Via Petrocelli that was pretty much the riverbank of the time, if you look on a modern map, if you stood by the bank, now you'd be underwater. That's important for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Tiber was wider, therefore slower. The type of the course of the type of changes and it changes for a number of reasons it changes because of human activity, it changes because of natural mechanics such as siltation. There's also other things apparently are going on it's do with tectonic features, and whatnot. And everything else far too complicated for my for my shallow mind, pun intended, when it comes to that kind of thing. So that explains one practical - because I wanted to what the practical aspect of the bridge first - because it's famous because it's a wooden bridge built without iron. And it takes its name Sublicius, apparently, from piles, which are what it's built on. Now, anyone who's lives near river will realize that bridges are very dangerous. If the rivers starts misbehaving, if you've got a permanent bridge, a stone bridge, that can really cause problems, if the rivers changing if the rivers changing, cause if it's widening or shortening. If it's flooding you can cause it can cause you some serious problems. And it's not until the second century BC that you have the Pons Aemelius, which is the first stone bridge, possibly reconstructed from a wooden one. If you've got this little wooden bridge, and it's on piles, and it can be its mobile, you can do a lot with it, you can make it longer, you can make it shorter, if you think you can raise it, it gives you much more mobility, which is essential when you've got the Tiber which is changing, the Tiber seems to narrow at this point. So when you have a narrowing River as a general rule, said with my geography GCSE how often it gets faster, it gets deeper, so it becomes more dangerous. And that's why that's why we have the bridge in its form. And again, I can't overestimate just how much this does change. For example, the Tiber Island builds up apparently due to sortation in this period, so it's not that and I did read one, one account one myth, I don't know if this links in necessarily, because I'm not sure if it was this they were speaking about. But the myth related to the field of Mars, and apparently some wheat was grown there, because it was sacred to the god Mars, they couldn't, they couldn't eat it or do anything with it. So they will throw in the river and throw it in the river. And it's so cool, so big that it built up over time. And that's how you get the type of river type Tiber island. So I think I think that's one explanation that the Romans had. But in any case, even and this is really important, even if you you were living in the time. If you live for 300 years in from the Regal period onward, you'd have seen the type of move massively so there's something that I try and get across to people and it's very difficult because I I always thought of it as we think of ancient history as monolithic. So the people in 500 BC are the same as the ones in first century AD got the same taste, same technology, they're all ancient. Whereas the reality is, even in sort of between centuries, you've got big changes going on. You've got big change in attitude. When Martial has epigrams he does a guest he does a list of the gifts in the Saturnalia in those includes ancient vases. So what's an ancient vase? Well, well yeah, because it's not it's 300 years old 400 years old, it's gonna be ancient it's we don't have this one advantage for looking or one privilege looking now backwards and going everything before you know the year doll year zero as it were, was ancient and it belong to the same thing people within that period considered time as we do in the same way that we might look back and go the industrial revolution that was a long time ago, people in Republican Rome were looking back and going Romulus a long time ago. Or in theory anyway, if if we knew what they were thinking because bearing in mind that myth doesn't start coming around till later on. Anyway, I'll get back to the bridge. So you have the you have the bridge, which is said is built wooden, and I got it I got a question for your good selves on this. During - and this is where it links in because we have Numa as linked into the bridge, because he was said to have brought in the pontifex or the pontifices - pontifys - pontifesses. It doesn't sound right, it's probably the way I've done it isn't a scientific case. I'm stuck. I'm so gonna mispronounce that and make it a swear word. So I'll just I'll just say priests, I'm just gonna say priests from now on the so you have the priests that are associated with a bridge and the repair. And Plutarch speaks about this. But he says, I don't believe it, everyone else does. But I've I've got I have a thought. And it's not going to be an original thought. It's like many thoughts I have, I think they're really, really good. And then I googled them, it turns out, someone wrote a book about it in the 1920s. But at this time, you have Rome, really, really creating ritual associated to so many things. And one of the things is warfare, you have the doors at Temple thing is Janus, which are opened, close, depending on when Rome is at war, you have the fetiales the priests that you have to declare were in a rich war in a ritualized way, and Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus both tell us that this bridge was removed in times of war, primarily for practical reasons, it made sense, because that's the front door to Rome, they're not going across that if you leave the drawbridge down, problems are going to happen. So if you think about the declaration of war, and then you've got a move an object, and they're shutting doors, and they're dancing to declare war, why wouldn't that be as part of some sort of religious ritual? I mean, again, I'm asking the both of you if you you've probably read books on this already. So it's not a new thing. But could it be in that that declaration of war in the movement of the bridge was was a religious or brought into the religious sphere? Dr G 57:51 Yeah, I think so. And look, you're not alone. It is, I think the bane of every researcher of the ancient world to come to the sad realization that a German scholar in the 19th century has gazumped you. And, really, you're playing a tough game of catch up. But yeah, certainly this idea of the bridge as being one in the caretakership of the pontifices. So already, there is a ritualized aspect to it, it's something under their purview, they need to think about it. And the idea that a waterway wouldn't have huge symbolic and ritual significance, in any case, I think would be misplaced. There's nothing quite as fundamental to ensuring that urban life is successful, then making sure that you've tended to the river and you Look after it, and it's part of the care and concern. And so having rituals developed around this kind of thing is super important and useful. Water is a cleansing agent. In many respects, it's one of the ways that you shift pollution away from the the sort of the urban area. So it's not a great idea necessarily to put heaps of stuff into your river. But if you'd need to it moves, and that's great, it's probably the fastest way to get it away. And in that sense, having something that traverses that space, allows you to open up one powerful opportunity ahead of you on the other side. But also, as you say, that's that really profound sense of the defensive quality that comes with a waterway and what a bridge does to sort of counteract that. So I think there is ways in which having rituals built up around a wooden bridge that you can shift and move and perhaps adapt to the situation. Super useful and important. And there's certainly no way that I can think of that that wouldn't be a religious thing from the Rome's perspective, from the Roman perspective. They see gods in water, they see gods on land, they see gods in the sky. It's all happening everywhere all the time. Neil - History Hound 1:00:01 Thanks very much for that. And I'm glad that I wasn't having a moment just thinking that that was something and I completely understand what you're saying about how, when you have these fantastic ideas, you find out that someone has written a book in German in 1912 about it. That happened to me quite a few times. I remember when I was at uni, and I was coming up with great ideas and then finding various books written about it. No, it's quite, it's great, because on one level, you think you've made a real achievement. On the other hand, you get that that dashed quite quickly. But going back to the bridge, there is an episode the bridge is associated with, that falls out just outside just after the recall period. It involves a great name, another great Roman name, and I apologize for my associations when I read this name. Its name is Horatius Cocles. But I read it as a right when I first read it, it's Horatius, Horatius Cockles, made me straightaway, I was thinking of that he's in Dickens, he feels like he should be a chimney sweeper in Dickens or something. But he's, he's a he performs a heroic act. So what happens is you have the Etruscans, who are being led by Lars Porsenna. And they're attacking Rome, they take the Janiculum Hill, which I'll speak about in a moment. And then they look to attack Rome and get through the front of it through that bridge. And Horatius is still on the bridge. And he's defending against all of these individuals. And he asked that the bridge is dismantled behind him, so they can't make they can't make progress. He successfully defeats a few of them and then jumps in the river and swims to the side after being injured a few times. Dr Rad 1:01:38 Excuse me, we have to mention that he was injured in the buttocks. Neil - History Hound 1:01:42 Oh I didn't want to say anything? Well, actually, I didn't want to say anything about that. It links in if when I thought of that. I don't know if you familiar with the Battle of Stamford Bridge? Dr Rad 1:01:53 Ah, yes, I think I am. Is that are we talking about something to do with 1066? Neil - History Hound 1:01:59 Yeah. 1066. So prior to the Battle of Hastings, you have the Battle of Stamford Bridge, which is up in the north of England, where you have an invading sort of caught this army. Forget the name of it, is it Harold Bluetooth? Someone. Dr Rad 1:02:12 Harold, Harold Hardrada, I think yeah. Yeah, Neil - History Hound 1:02:15 Sorry, yeah. And they, they, they were attacked, and you have one individual defending against all of the, the the English as it were army on a bridge. And he puts up a heroic performance until someone goes under the bridge and stabs him from underneath it, and presumably in the groin, stroke, buttock area again. So, if just a just a general thing, if you ever find yourself defending against superior forces on a bridge, where everyone's got pointy things - just watch your backside, that's all I'm gonna say. That's a big weakness. Yeah, just handy hint there, you know, do what do what you will with it. And this, this became a huge, hugely important thing. And again, to the credit of your book, you write about exemplar, you write about the idea of particular events in Roman history being held up as this is how we do it. This defines this as a culture. This is how Rome saw itself, this is a defining moment, it I think, in a way it kind of gets overlooked, because that's at the time where you've got the Republic, being sort of born, you've got lots of things going on. It's like one of those years where you see what won the Oscar and you think my god that won the Oscar and all these other amazing films didn't win the Oscar, you think that would have won the Oscar any other year, but you had like four of them on you. And around 509 BC, you have all these big events are some big events going on, they they kind of almost, they take, they steal the attention from each other. But Rome was very, very keen on this becomes a sort of household thing within Rome. You have later emperors, using the imagery to announce how they're taking Rome back to traditional values, and how they're going to defend our own and things like that. So again, it's it's really important that bridges ultimately associated with that, because how you define that visually, is with a bridge. Because otherwise it's just someone stood there with a spear. You have to have something else in the image. Presumably you're not gonna have his buttocks being stabbed. You're gonna - Dr G 1:02:42 Make sure you've got a strong pair of underpants. Neil - History Hound 1:04:22 Well, yeah, that the artists were so limited, you got coin, I've got a coin. That's all I've got. So it becomes a really defining moment for for Rome, and that bridge is part of that. So it can and it's also when we talk about space, in a way we have to talk about time. And when you have somewhere like and I should have mentioned this about Tarpeian rock, and about the bridge. These are both places that Romans can go to and feel and connect with the past as it were now not saying that we will kind of doing nice, guided tours of Rome getting in touch with it in a row. Humans, but at the same time, culturally, you have these points where you can say, this is where this happened. We have that now, you know, we have pretty much you can go to any city and it will have this is where so and so lived or this is where this particular event occurred. And the the actual location might look very different to how it did back then. But you can still, in theory, connect with it. So I think this is very important for Rome on a couple in a couple of ways. The only other thing I can mention about the bridge was because I'm gonna speak about how it linked in with the Janiculum. But the expansion, you know, the bridge allowed the broom to expand past its initial borders, it was that that thing which allowed it to get past the Tiber, which was ultimately there's something that hugely defined it, you know, the hills, keep it there, but the type is the thing that really defines Rome, or that's how I, that's how I perceive it. And you also have the, again, my pronunciation with Argive, the Argives, which has a ritual of purification that finished on the bridge, where they threw straw doles into the water as a part of purification of the city. So yeah, the bridge is really, really important. And it's something which doesn't necessarily underlooked think there's a lot of things to consider it right. But if you're thinking about Rome, perhaps think about the bridges next time we visit Rome, think more about the bridges as a way of going somewhere, just you know, go and stand and have a Look round. Think what what might have been, Dr G 1:06:22 I was gonna say, you know, you're not going to have him like bending over showing his butt cheek to everybody. Disappointing Rome, you had a choice and you missed it. Dr Rad 1:06:33 What would happen if you weren't wearing steel underwear at that very moment? Dr G 1:06:43 Think of what would happen if they were made of wood and how difficult they would have been to cross? So we've been thinking about the major hills of Rome, we've been thinking about the Tiber River. And we've talked a little bit specifically about the Palatine and the Aventine because they sort of stand out in that sort of foundation moment for Rome. But there's definitely more than to the fabled seven. And you've mentioned already the Janiculum. A little bit. And I'm also wondering maybe about the Caelian Hill as well. And how did these hills start to feature into the Regal history as it starts to expand out and we get further into the Kings? Neil - History Hound 1:07:29 Okay, yeah, I mentioned the Janiculum. So the Janiculum is inherently linked to Rome, because of that bridge. And it's the other side of the Tiber. The Janiculum in a sense is there for one reason, and it's there because you want to get it before anyone else gets it. And again, if you've if you've replaced civilization, you're thinking that big hill, it's near my city, I've got to put some units on that. Because guess what will happen if I don't. And it's, it's justified. Partly, and I think this is the this is interesting, because the other things about the hills is they get much more of a sort of cultural feel to them. With a genetic, you know, it's there. The sources pretty much say it's there because of trade. Because then if you've got that hill, you can govern what goes on on the river. And now the trade routes the other side of the Tiber, which apparently could be exposed to banditry, which is very common. It's also defense because if you've got the hills, someone else can't win. Interestingly enough, when you've got Horatius the reason that the advancing Etruscan army are able to do that and take the bridge or try and take the bridge is because they took the Janiculum first, it's the first place they went. So it's really important purely from a strategic point. Other Hills tend to be more cultural. The Caelian Hill is was settled by Tullus Hostilius from those people that he took from Alba Longa, which is where yeah, where he devastated it more or less after some thorough betrayal by Mettius Fufetius, who was torn asunder by horses. I think it's even even Livy's says that was wrong. Yeah, that was not a good time You crossed the line. Dr Rad 1:09:04 That's one of my favorite names. Neil - History Hound 1:09:09 Yeah, what again, I just think of him as the Cowardly Lion type character, but he wasn't; he was very - he was an ardent politician and, and a treacherous one at that. Which surprised really, because you would have thought you could have gone to the Tarpeian rock instead. But hey, you got horses, what are you going to do? Now in terms of it being named, it was named after apparently an Etruscan soldier called Caelius Verbena, or my personal favorite - and I like this more - it could have been named after oak trees. And if you think why would you name somewhere after oak trees I did. Did read that the Aventine apparently in association with the myrtle tree so that could have been a reason why it took its name. Esquiline Hill was apparently named after chestnut trees or could have been, and the Viminal after willow trees. Dr G 1:09:56 That's a beautiful way to think about Rome. Just yeah, that's surrounding forest and much more peaceful but other options. Dr Rad 1:10:03 Yeah, I was gonna say it sounds too much. It sounds uncharacteristically gentle. Neil - History Hound 1:10:08 I know, it did stick out when I was reading. And I thought, that will be nice. I don't believe it. But that would be nice. It's more likely that we're going to name this hill after someone we through from after someone we cut in half, or it's, you know, doesn't always seem to be the most pleasant way that they find their names, but, but also considering just think of how Romans considered their space. And it was dominated by woods, forests, and trees. And obviously, you don't get that so much. If you go to Rome. Now, obviously, even they got some wonderful plane trees. And they they do have some, some lovely shrubbery, too. But as a general, you forget just how much it would have been dictated by so far, we spoke about hills. So far, we've spoken about geographical features, topological features, as it were. But we're also talking about sort of, you know, woods, trees, things like that. Dr G 1:10:59 And I think this is ties in very much to what you've been saying earlier about, like that sort of monolithic approach to history. And the mistake in doing that, and it's like, this is a place that's just starting out as a place where people have settled and decided to build a life for themselves. It is immersed in nature, they're surrounded by it. And it's not like when you go to Rome today, and it's obviously a very urban place. And they do have a lot of big and beautiful gardens, but they're very contained. This is much more sprawling wildness. And the thing that is unusual is the fact that there are people living here. Neil - History Hound 1:11:32 Yeah, yeah. The only other thing that I could really come into when it's talking about the calean is something that is, is I can find a great deal of evidence behind it. But the link to possibly Egeria or Egeria, she was the nymph who advised Numa Pompilius, the second Roman king, and who apparently helped him do anything there was there's a sort of shrine, apparently, or, or, or something near the Porta Capena, which was on the foot of the hill. And it for those that don't know, you can look at numerous in two ways. You can look at him this kindly, old man, or you can look at him as a bit of a bit of a traveling salesman. I always think of kind of those those in those films where you have the sort of preacher from the self in the United States, and they're sort of they're gonna cure you, and you know, all of that kind of stuff. And he feels a bit of light at times, mainly because he sorts of does things like, he convinces people to come around, look at his place and say, look, I've got nothing to serve anyone for a feast? Come back in a couple hours. Wow, look, I'm magic. There's, there's lots of food. And apparently people in Rome said, well, that that must be magic, as opposed to just knowing the caterer, which is more plausible response. But he was very much linked into this sort of spiritual mythology of Rome, he gave Rome or furnishes Rome, with a set of really religious, religious spaces where they just compete, because he seems to have taken root, he didn't want a job as king, he turns up, and then he realizes that you've got this really, really gruesome band of highly undesirable people who are being very violent to each other. Rather than keep it you've got to keep them away from declaring war. So we just give them a space where they can compete with that when he does that through setting up all the magistracies all the all the presets and stuff like that. So people can now sort of, I suppose, work out how they can graft across those that that competitive element into the religious element. And so presumed now people just getting annoyed that didn't get the right priesthood as opposed to running across and chopping someone's head off. So he kind of contains that. So you got to feel from that respect, but apparently he has a nymph, who teaches him lots gives him lots of special advice and information. She was linked in some way to this hill, or has a possible association with this hill. Dr G 1:13:49 Numa he's one of my favorite characters from the Regal period, I have to say, and the fact that he spends what seems to be at least 50% of his time hanging out with imaginary friend in the forest is just fantastic. Neil - History Hound 1:14:03 Well, one of the things I don't, I don't won't get the chance to talk about is Jupiter Lisius, or Licius the, the the magical sprats that he had, which would stop him getting hit by lightning and the fact that he could use an altar to Jupiter to conduct a storm and then read portents from it. I just think that's wonderful. That's just such a fantastic myth that you had him or rather in association with him, it sort of moves more to the whole of trust and brontoscopy, which is how you read the portents through through storms and I've actually got a copy of the brontoscopic calendar and I put it up on my Tiktok whenever it storms or go out and I read what it portrays do what it you know, it says weird stuff. Sometimes it's like, everyone will die. The crops will be ruined. Sometimes it's some sometimes it's it's nice. Most of the time it's not. Sometimes it's nice saying anyone called Clive, they probably need to check their their car insurance. It goes from the big to the really, really incidental, because presumably you've got 365 entries. So once you get the big things done, Dr G 1:15:08 you just got to fill out the rest of the thing. You're like, okay, all right, Neil - History Hound 1:15:12 Check. If there's Thunderhead check the back of the fridge, something might be off. It's that sort of a thing. Dr G 1:15:20 Well, thank you so much for sitting down with us. And taking us through some of these sort of sprawling landscapes that make up this early, early period of Rome's sort of typography, the way it thinks about itself. And the way people might be engaging with those sorts of spaces. I think it's really great food for thought, to start to reimagine what this place Look like, how it operated, and how people operated within those spaces. And obviously, the modern city today inspires your imagination for some of those sorts of things. But when we're thinking about the Regal period, we're going back well before all of those ruined pieces of architecture that you spot in the forum, for instance. So it's like, we really have to get ourselves into a whole different zone to start thinking about the Regal period. So thank you so much. Neil - History Hound 1:16:11 No pleasure, thank you very much for letting me come on give you weird analogies. jokes that probably to do well, and tangents, which is generally what I do. Dr G 1:16:19 Oh no, I'm always up for a good shrubbery reference, you know. Dr Rad 1:16:26 And I think that you have showcased to our audience if they aren't already avid listeners of your podcast, that in spite of the fact that you keep calling us experts, your level of research is amazing. And people should definitely go and check out your wonderful work. Neil - History Hound 1:16:42 That's very kind of you. You're not expecting money for that. Are you? I have no, I have no budget. I can't. Dr Rad 1:16:48 Well, naturally I don't want to have to pay you for plugging out book earlier, obviously. Neil - History Hound 1:16:52 Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate being being on a on a podcast such as yourselves, which is obviously very, very helpful very well in high esteem. Dr G 1:17:22 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you're keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book "Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome" at partial historians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome. Transcribed by https://otter.ai