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Feminism and the redefinition of men, women, and family · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

0:28
Good morning and welcome to Don't Imbibe the
0:30
Kool-Aid.
0:32
That's our show here on America Outlide.
0:34
Don't invite the Kool Agg.
0:35
Today we're going to be talking about the
0:38
whole concept of revival, and when God does
0:40
a work in the hearts of many, many
0:43
people across a society across the nation, there
0:45
is a revival that takes place.
0:48
And in America, we've seen some spectacular revivals.
0:52
In fact, uh, we probably wouldn't exist as
0:54
a nation had it not been for the
0:56
revival called the Great Awakening during the colonial
0:59
era that actually laid the groundwork for uh
1:01
what came to be the American War for
1:03
Independence.
1:06
But then there was a second Great Awakening,
1:08
the beginning of the 19th century that just
1:10
swept through every part of America, greatly transformed
1:13
uh our society.
1:15
There were other revivals like there was the
1:18
businessmen's revival of 195 or 1857 and the
1:20
Zusa Pacific revival in the early part of
1:23
the twentieth century.
1:25
And the three of us on the show
1:28
today were all part of the revival that
1:30
is often called the Jesus Revolution in the
1:33
late 60s and early 1970s.
1:35
Well, I'm Pastor David Whitney, senior instructor at
1:38
Institute on the Constitution, host of this show,
1:40
Don't Imbibe the Kool-Aid.
1:43
My co-host is Dr.
1:45
Brian Shelley, who uh joins me for our
1:47
Friday broadcast at 7 a.m.
1:50
And we have a special guest, a good
1:51
friend of mine, Dr.
1:52
Jim Archeri, all the way back from high
1:54
school days.
1:56
We were in high school together, and we
1:58
were both part of what was happening in
2:00
that Jesus revolution.
2:02
It was an exciting time where we saw
2:04
many people coming to faith in Christ, becoming
2:06
disciples, and Jim, y you went on to
2:08
become a pastor as a result of that
2:10
revival, correct?
2:12
Uh yeah, yes, I did.
2:13
Mm-hmm.
2:14
And what was uh what was happening in
2:17
your life that laid the groundwork for uh
2:19
that uh spiritual transformation?
2:22
Well uh uh I joined the youth group
2:24
that our dear friend John Fletcher was holding
2:26
in his home.
2:29
And um the every Saturday night he would
2:31
have kids come over for pizza, play pool,
2:33
ping pong, and uh then he would give
2:35
there would be some music which I provided
2:38
with on the guitar, and then he would
2:40
give a devotional.
2:42
But one time he was out, I think
2:44
they went to Word to Life camp in
2:46
the summer, and he asked me to do
2:48
the devotional, and I didn't know this, but
2:50
John's father was listening at the top of
2:52
the steps because all of this was happening
2:53
in their basement there in Titusville, New Jersey.
2:56
And um after my little devotional, Mr.
2:58
Fletcher came to me and says, Jim, I
3:00
I really think you got to give you
3:01
the gift of teaching.
3:02
Maybe you should consider the ministry.
3:05
And um I had never thought about it
3:06
that way before.
3:07
So that was the spark.
3:09
Um I didn't really have a focus other
3:12
than I wanted to play rock and roll
3:14
for my practicing bass quite a bit and
3:17
taking classical lessons.
3:20
So but that kind of guided me.
3:21
So I went off to college uh and
3:24
became a religion major, but discovered that the
3:26
college was liberal, so I switched to history,
3:29
still graduating in four years, and then went
3:31
overseas on a short-term mission trip for six
3:33
months to Greece, and then while there, the
3:36
missionary there said, Hey, you know, you really
3:38
ought to consider going to seminary and come
3:40
back and teach here or teach somewhere, because
3:43
I think you have the gift of that.
3:45
So there you go.
3:46
There's your second witness.
3:48
So I came home, went to um went
3:50
to biblical seminary in uh Pennsylvania, uh, which
3:53
surprised your father because he said, I didn't
3:56
know you reformed, and I said, What is
3:58
that?
4:02
Then he got a real chuckle out of.
4:04
And um so uh went there, graduated, and
4:07
while they're married and helped out starting uh
4:10
two PCA churches, two church plants in the
4:13
door quicker church.
4:16
And you know, uh that I they said,
4:18
Hey, would you consider becoming a PCA church
4:20
planner?
4:22
And I said, Okay, hadn't thought about that.
4:24
Wound up going through their assessment center, which
4:26
today they call the Ministry Discovery Center, and
4:28
they identified me as having the gifts for
4:30
church planned.
4:32
So we wound up leaving Pennsylvania and going
4:34
to Virginia in nineteen eighty-six and uh became
4:37
was uh PCA Church Claim.
4:39
Is that uh is that enough?
4:41
Yes, but thank you because uh what uh
4:43
interested in focusing on today is there's a
4:46
reports on college campuses around the country that
4:48
there is a revival uh kind of sparking
4:51
up, or at least there's uh embers or
4:53
or sparks being uh cast forth.
4:56
And I'd like us to ask the question,
4:58
what were the conditions that we recall in
5:01
our nation that set the kindling just in
5:04
the right situation for that revival to take
5:07
place of the Jesus Revolution?
5:10
And uh the reason I asked that is
5:13
I guess we want to look at what's
5:15
happening today and ask ourselves, are we there?
5:17
Are we that there at a point in
5:20
time where the potential dry kindling, you know,
5:22
if you're starting a fire, going camping or
5:24
whatever, uh you really need dry kindling if
5:26
you're gonna get a good fire going.
5:29
Are we there today?
5:30
So let's reflect uh and Brian uh chip
5:32
in on on some of your experiences, because
5:34
I know that you were uh much a
5:36
part of uh uh the Jesus revival, perhaps
5:38
a few years ahead of Jim and I
5:40
in terms of that.
5:43
But uh what what was your experience and
5:44
what were some of the things that you
5:46
saw present in our our country at the
5:47
time?
5:50
Well, one of the key things would of
5:52
course be the war in Vietnam.
5:54
Uh there were a lot of uh uh
5:57
people that were experiencing a a revival in
5:59
the sort sense that uh you know they
6:02
were worried about going off to war and
6:04
dying.
6:07
And uh that that had that had a
6:09
lot to do with it.
6:11
Uh but there was also uh a real
6:14
uh understanding among the youth that people without
6:17
Christ were going to go to hell.
6:21
And uh my experience was back in nineteen
6:25
seventy-two, when I was uh about sixteen, seventeen
6:28
years of age, my youth group got an
6:32
old school bus, and we drove from Pennsylvania
6:35
to Dallas, Texas for Expo 72.
6:39
And the key speaker that week was a
6:42
guy by the name of Billy Graham, and
6:45
more than a hundred thousand teenagers uh went
6:48
to the cotton bowl, and uh the place
6:51
was just packed, and we had praise and
6:53
worship uh like I have never experienced in
6:56
my life.
6:59
Billy Graham uh preached there uh during the
7:00
Billy Graham preached there during the one of
7:02
one of the the evenings, uh a thunderstorm
7:03
the the evenings uh a thunderstorm came up
7:05
came up quickly and it rained and we
7:06
quickly and it rained and we prayed and
7:07
prayed and it stopped, and the next thing
7:09
it stopped, and the next thing you know,
7:10
you know, this giant rainbow uh just covered
7:12
this giant rainbow uh just covered over the
7:13
over the stadium.
7:15
stadium and uh as a result of that,
7:16
Wow.
7:17
And uh as a result of that, hundreds
7:18
hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of kids went
7:19
upon hundreds of thousands of kids went forward
7:21
forward to rededicate their life to Christ.
7:22
to rededicate their life to Christ.
7:24
Uh I had done that before.
7:24
Uh I had done that before.
7:26
I went there, we came back, and uh
7:26
I went there, we came back, and uh
7:28
suddenly there was
7:28
suddenly there was this intense desire to share
7:31
the gospel, and we would go out on
7:34
the streets of our city, uh the teenagers
7:36
and just stop people and present the gospel
7:39
to them, lead people to Christ.
7:42
Uh it was really an exciting time in
7:45
history as people uh took seriously the fact
7:47
that we need to preach the gospel to
7:50
every creature.
7:53
Amen.
7:54
So, Jim, do you see some of those
7:56
elements uh uh reflecting back on that revival
7:58
of Jesus revolution?
8:00
Uh what were some of the elements that
8:02
uh were present that set that kindling just
8:05
dry enough that when the sparks were lit
8:07
it uh it came aflame.
8:09
And by the way, the the youth group
8:11
that uh was meeting at uh uh at
8:13
their home there was called use of flame,
8:15
well, interestingly enough.
8:17
Well what do you think, Jim?
8:19
That's a good question, Dave.
8:21
Um I I can uh what I remember
8:24
is my own experience, and that was my
8:27
interest was in music, and there was uh
8:30
a growing contemporary music format going on for
8:33
Christians, and I think the out of Calvary
8:37
Chapel there in Southern California certainly was a
8:40
uh I sparked that a lot of revival
8:43
around the country as uh their their influence
8:46
spread.
8:50
Um in terms of kindling, I don't know.
8:51
Maybe it was the drug scene that was
8:53
being dis you know, learned people were seeing
8:55
that that isn't where it's at, you know,
8:57
to use the phrase of the time.
9:00
Um my interest was piqued because of uh
9:02
my never I would grow up in atheist
9:04
family, so I did not know about the
9:06
second coming of Jesus.
9:08
So evidences of that happening in the world,
9:10
which is something that John introduced John Fletcher
9:13
introduced to me with literature that uh and
9:15
I think perhaps um there was uh a
9:18
number of people, you know, how Lindsay's book,
9:20
Late Great Planet Earth, there was uh a
9:22
sense that that could be happening soon, that
9:25
Jesus could be returning soon.
9:28
Um I don't other than that the drug
9:31
culture and the disappointment with the as Brian
9:34
said, the Vietnam War, um, and then I
9:37
said the contemporary Christian music growing and in
9:40
influence and uh and then um just the
9:43
uh uh understanding that world events are taking
9:46
place that could mean Jesus is returning.
9:50
That's what I remember.
9:50
So I don't know.
9:51
I I don't know if those are around
9:54
today uh like they were then.
9:56
There's there's certainly from what I'm reading about
9:58
what's happening with young people is they're looking
10:00
for certainty.
10:02
Yes.
10:02
Um and some are finding it in traditional
10:04
ism.
10:06
Uh a hundred thousand have since I think
10:08
the last ten years gone into the Eastern
10:11
Orthodox church, especially younger men.
10:13
Um however, others are looking, I think, also
10:16
for authenticity.
10:18
They've there might be a a back a
10:21
reaction to the megachurch movement.
10:23
They've done a lot of reading on this
10:24
kind of thing.
10:26
And so in the last 15 or so
10:28
years, five million have left the traditional churches
10:30
and are in home churches, house churches, and
10:33
they're finding authenticity there.
10:35
They're also finding affordability.
10:38
I mean, imagine walking into a church and
10:39
seeing that this, wow, these buildings cost a
10:40
lot of money.
10:42
I don't have that.
10:43
I can barely afford to buy a home.
10:45
So that's another pressure, social pressure today for
10:48
the younger generation, millennials and Gen Z.
10:51
So uh, you know, uh was causing more
10:54
interest.
10:56
I think it's the need for certainty and
10:58
authenticity.
10:59
Uh to and I'm just quoting guys who
11:00
are a lot smarter than me and done
11:02
a lot more research.
11:03
Yeah.
11:05
But but thank you.
11:06
I think there are there are conditions today
11:09
uh that have set the kindling and the
11:11
kindling is prepared.
11:14
And I think a lot of young folks
11:17
are are questioning a lot of authorities that
11:19
they have uh assumed were correct.
11:22
Uh for example, what took place in 2020
11:23
was a shock to most every American that
11:25
I know.
11:27
It's like, wait a minute, all of a
11:29
sudden all our businesses have to shut down,
11:31
the the churches have to shut their doors,
11:33
and what's going on, and then come to
11:35
find out that um it wasn't all that
11:37
it was being sold to us as.
11:40
And we encountered uh an interesting sort of
11:42
uh uh s uh uh sway of people
11:44
because in our pulpit we were proclaiming the
11:46
truth about what's happening here, that it's not
11:48
uh what it seems to be, and that
11:50
the Church of Jesus Christ should not close
11:52
its doors as a result of a virus
11:54
going through society.
11:57
And many people came to our church simply
11:59
because we were saying the truth about things
12:01
that they weren't hearing elsewhere.
12:03
And so we saw uh quite a number
12:05
of people come to faith in Christ uh
12:07
because they said, Well, wait a minute, if
12:09
you're speaking the truth on this issue over
12:11
here on the on what's taking place in
12:13
our society, maybe we'll listen to what you
12:15
have to say about the gospel of Jesus
12:16
Christ and eternity.
12:18
So it was a fascinating time uh in
12:21
the past five years to see a number
12:23
of people beginning to question what is the
12:25
authority.
12:27
And that's really a good place to be
12:30
because when a person is willing to question
12:33
the authorities that they have assumed were correct,
12:35
then maybe they're open to hearing, you know,
12:38
there is uh a word from the creator
12:41
God, the one who made each one of
12:43
us, and that word is authoritative, and you
12:46
can bank everything on that, uh, not just
12:49
this life, but for all eternity.
12:51
So I think there's a there's a questioning
12:53
of authority, and I think you're right in
12:56
terms of the pressures that people face today.
12:58
I know a number of people who've graduated
13:00
from college with you know a good degree
13:01
in a in a field that used to
13:03
be uh uh a very lucrative field, you
13:05
know, like computer programming and that sort of
13:07
thing, computer engineering, and now they can't find
13:09
jobs.
13:11
The jobs have disappeared, artificial intelligence is has
13:14
taken over uh much of that area.
13:17
So there's people who are searching and hungry,
13:19
and the American dream seems to be eluding
13:21
them.
13:24
They've done what they've been told to do.
13:26
Uh they spent the money and the time
13:28
and the and the hard work to get
13:30
to and they find them, wait a minute,
13:32
I'm here, and there is no uh it's
13:34
not a dream at all.
13:36
It's more of a nightmare.
13:37
So I think this is an interesting opportunity
13:40
at this point in time where many people
13:42
may be open to talking about spiritual things
13:44
like never before.
13:46
I know obviously during the time of of
13:49
COVID, people were very concerned about their health
13:51
and you know, and very concerned that they
13:53
might die, or their uh family members, or
13:56
you know, they knew people in the community
13:58
who were dying, and they heard many, many
14:00
Many, many reports about death that made them
14:01
reports about death that made them think uh
14:03
think uh about their own demise.
14:03
about their own demise.
14:06
And uh that's an unusual time in our
14:06
And that's an unusual time in our culture.
14:07
culture.
14:08
We we tend to be a culture that
14:08
We we tend to be a culture that
14:10
tries to avoid any mention of death at
14:10
tries to avoid any mention of death at
14:12
all.
14:12
all.
14:14
Uh, you know, the the thing I find
14:14
Uh, you know, the the thing I find
14:16
that if I'm doing a funeral, that's one
14:16
that if I'm doing a funeral, that's one
14:18
of the few times people really are paying
14:18
of the few times people really are paying
14:21
attention to the idea of what happens when
14:21
attention to the idea of what happens when
14:23
I go into the grave.
14:23
I go into the grave.
14:25
What happens beyond the death?
14:25
What happens beyond the death?
14:27
Is there nothing?
14:27
Is there nothing?
14:28
Or is there what the Bible tells me?
14:28
Or is there what the Bible talks about
14:30
or something else, and they're asking questions that
14:32
and I think that uh that that time
14:34
presented a real good opportunity uh for that
14:36
kind of kindling.
14:39
Well, we as uh followers of Jesus Christ
14:41
want to be extremely sensitive to what the
14:43
Holy Spirit is directing us to do as
14:46
as you shared that uh uh people Jim
14:48
influence your life by saying, I think you've
14:51
got this gift, and uh we want to
14:53
be sensitive.
14:56
Is the Holy Spirit moving in our day
14:59
uh as we hear reports on college campuses
15:01
around the country that uh there are awakenings,
15:04
and there was the ones several years back
15:07
at Asbury there in in Wilmore, Kentucky, uh,
15:09
and uh day after day the people were
15:12
staying and worshiping, and uh I I watched
15:15
a segment of that and heard some people
15:17
that went there, and uh very interesting time.
15:20
One of the things that I was looking
15:22
for that I did not see is that
15:24
in a true revival there will be a
15:26
heavy emphasis on repentance.
15:29
That people are called to repent when we
15:31
see the gospel as presented by Jesus in
15:33
Mark chapter one, verse 14 and 15.
15:36
He says, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven
15:38
is at hand.
15:40
So the repentance message I believe is essential.
15:44
If it's part of uh the type of
15:46
evangelism done, then uh it's going to bring
15:47
that fruit.
15:49
And if there are people actually repenting, I
15:51
remember in our day, Jim there at Hopel
15:54
Valley, uh one of the fellows who I
15:56
knew that was very, very heavily into drugs,
15:58
you know, uh a pothead uh uh and
16:00
I knew that uh his life was focused
16:02
on all of that, and I was very
16:05
surprised when he came to an evangelistic meeting
16:07
that uh we were holding at a church,
16:09
and Spirit prompted me to go over and
16:11
talk to him, and lo and behold, he
16:13
was ready to receive the Lord Jesus Christ.
16:16
I had no idea uh that he was
16:17
that prepared.
16:19
Well, we're coming up on a break here
16:21
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18:03
Well, it's high time Americans refuse to be
18:06
haunted in the human chest.
18:09
Under the name of diversity, politicians divide the
18:11
people in their quest for pom.
18:14
So diversity of opinion and expression is as
18:17
American as Apple Pod.
18:23
Now is our time, my fellow Americans.
18:27
America Outloud.
18:29
Liberty and justice for all.
18:52
And uh we know that there's two litmus
18:54
tests to determining what is that Kool-Aid to
18:56
avoid.
18:59
The first litmus test we talk about on
19:00
our show, Don't Imbibe the Kool-Aid is the
19:02
word of God.
19:04
The Bible is the standard by which we
19:07
need to measure every single truth claim that
19:09
is presented to us.
19:12
And the second litmus test that we talk
19:14
about on this show is that uh the
19:17
founding documents of our country, particularly with what's
19:20
happening politically and what's uh takes place not
19:22
only in Washington but in our state capitals,
19:25
and that is the founding documents, the Declaration
19:28
of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.
19:31
Well, before the break, we were talking about
19:34
uh the essential element in a true revival
19:36
is repentance, and I wasn't able to complete
19:39
the story there before the break, but uh
19:42
when I I prayed with uh shared the
19:44
gospel with and prayed with uh this fellow
19:47
who I thought was a pothead who probably
19:50
was completely immune to the gospel message, he
19:52
shared with me uh in the next few
19:55
days that an amazing thing happened in his
19:58
life, and this was the fruit of repentance.
20:01
He lost all desire to smoke pot at
20:02
all.
20:04
It just was gone.
20:05
It was like miraculously and instantly God gave
20:08
him release from that bondage uh to weed,
20:10
and he was free from it.
20:13
He never smoked it ever again.
20:15
He never had even a desire to smoke
20:17
it.
20:18
So there was an example that I saw
20:20
of true repentance on the part uh uh
20:22
of that young man.
20:24
I won't use his name because uh he
20:25
went on to uh go to Bible college
20:27
down in in Miami.
20:29
Uh met a lovely young woman and I
20:31
was part of their wedding, and uh last
20:32
I talked to him, he had five kids,
20:34
and uh God just blessed his life and
20:35
so uh that which is why I wouldn't
20:37
want to use his name.
20:39
God blessed his life in so many ways.
20:41
Uh it was wonderful to see that, but
20:44
we saw repentance that is essential for revival
20:47
to take to take place.
20:49
Uh, Brian, do you recall anything with uh
20:52
that you reflect on uh during the Jesus
20:54
Revolution that where you saw repentance was an
20:56
essential part of what was happening?
20:59
Yeah, absolutely.
21:00
There would be these mass meetings uh even
21:00
There would be these mass meetings uh even
21:03
in in the church I attended where these
21:03
in in the church I attended where these
21:06
uh kids who really had no interest in
21:06
uh kids who really had no interest in
21:08
God were invited and they came and uh
21:08
God were invited and they came and uh
21:11
the gospel was preached, and there was just
21:11
the gospel was preached and there was just
21:14
this miraculous change in their life as a
21:14
this miraculous change in their life as a
21:17
result of this.
21:17
result of this.
21:20
Uh you s you said about uh uh
21:20
Uh you s you said about uh this
21:22
this man not wanting to smoke pot.
21:22
man not wanting to smoke pot.
21:25
My dad was uh before he got saved
21:25
My dad was uh before he got saved
21:27
was a heavy smoker and drinker, same thing
21:27
was a heavy smoker and drinker.
21:29
happened to him.
21:31
Instant he got saved, the desires were gone.
21:34
And so that it's not unusual to see
21:37
that God really uh gets rid of some
21:39
of the fleshly longings that people have the
21:42
second they repent, and uh as a result
21:44
of that, there was a real desire to
21:46
hold one another accountable as well to stay
21:49
true to living a Christian life, and we
21:51
did that with each other.
21:54
Uh we'd partner up and we would pray
21:56
with each other, we confess our sins to
21:59
one another, and uh it held us accountable.
22:01
Amen.
22:02
Jim, you reflect uh back on those those
22:04
days as well.
22:06
Did you see those signs of repentance in
22:08
people's lives?
22:11
Oh, yeah, I would say that um yeah.
22:14
I mean, for myself, you know, I I
22:16
started to read the Bible, you know, I
22:19
and give up certain sin patterns.
22:22
And you you saw that with others who
22:25
um well, you know, let me think, David.
22:28
I mean, it's a good question.
22:30
You definitely was a you you people starting
22:32
to go and well participate in youth of
22:34
flames, right?
22:37
People and show the evidence that I want
22:38
to be with Christians.
22:40
I want to grow in scripture.
22:42
Um I I want to uh figure out
22:44
what does it mean to serve the Lord
22:45
and to actually share with Christ with my
22:47
friends.
22:49
Uh so that you know, that would be
22:51
all part of the a total package of
22:52
conversion.
22:54
Not just the negative side of giving up
22:55
certain things, but I'm adopting the new s
22:57
I'm putting on the new man.
22:59
And um there was a lot of that.
23:02
People definitely had to and you know, there
23:04
were some as as you may remember that
23:06
had even came from Christian homes that they
23:08
had to make a choice, you know, they
23:10
kind of lived under the radar because I
23:12
remember sometimes I would actually share Christ with
23:14
a friend or with somebody there in school
23:16
and they'd say, Well, I'm a believer, but
23:18
you never know it.
23:21
You know, they were sort of chameleons.
23:24
So that would have to be some repentance
23:25
there that I'm I'm gonna make my choice,
23:27
I'm gonna side with the believers as crazy
23:29
as they look.
23:31
And and um Jim, I actually that was
23:33
my experience that uh when I started freshman
23:35
year in high school, uh John Fletcher was
23:38
uh going to the same church that I
23:40
was going to, and so he began to
23:42
encourage me to come to Youth Flame and
23:44
get involved, and and I did, but kind
23:46
of wanting to stay undercover, you know.
23:49
It's like, well, don't really want everybody to
23:51
know that I'm a Christian, and John encouraged
23:53
me and and eventually I began doing this,
23:55
of carrying my Bible along with the stack
23:57
of books to each class.
24:00
Because there, if the Bible's on the top
24:01
of the stack of books you have, people
24:03
are gonna know, oh, you're you're a committed
24:04
Christian.
24:06
That's that one of those things that you
24:08
can hide behind.
24:09
And uh so that was that was a
24:11
a blessing for me.
24:13
So for me it wasn't uh first coming
24:15
to faith in Christ, but actually being revived
24:17
and becoming committed to being an out loud
24:20
Christian that was not ashamed of the gospel
24:22
of Jesus Christ.
24:25
And as I reflect back on it, there
24:27
was a lot of repenting that I had
24:28
to do myself as as uh you know,
24:30
kind of uh trying to be a uh
24:32
a Christian that hides your light under a
24:34
bushel and that sort of thing.
24:36
And uh so that that sort of repentance
24:38
was was evident in those days, and uh
24:41
I would say if we see true revival
24:43
taking place, and again I was just reporting
24:46
on uh Asbury, but I know that there's
24:49
other college campuses where I'm hearing there are
24:51
are revivals taking place where there's a far
24:54
greater emphasis on repentance uh than I saw
24:56
there in in that Asbury revival, and that's
24:59
encouraging to me.
25:02
Because I know if if people hear a
25:04
gospel message that basically says, you know, Jesus
25:06
has a wonderful plan for your life, Jesus
25:08
wants to be your friend, all of which
25:10
is true, but they never call a person
25:12
to repentance.
25:14
You could wind up with uh what you
25:16
might call a still birth.
25:18
A person thinks they're born again, but there's
25:21
really no transformation in their lives.
25:24
And I think one evidence of that is
25:26
that we see people in America today who
25:28
claim to be Christians, that is, they claim
25:30
to be followers of Jesus Christ, but at
25:33
the same time, in the same moment they'll
25:35
tell you that they are committed sodomites.
25:37
Now I'm using the biblical term, I know
25:40
that's not the term they're gonna use, they're
25:42
gonna say LGBTQ, whatever, you know, but they're
25:45
committed to sexual immorality as part of their
25:47
life, some even claiming that they can redefine
25:50
God's institution of marriage and two men can
25:52
marry or two women can marry, and uh
25:55
they could go on in that that uh
25:57
sinful relationship, which the Bible calls an abomination,
26:00
and claim that they are Christians.
26:03
And you know, leaves me at least, I
26:04
don't know about both of you, but at
26:06
least we kind of scratching my head.
26:07
It's like, well, wait a minute.
26:09
You could say uh let's take another sin
26:11
that might be a little more obvious because
26:14
our society has so uh you know been
26:16
saturated with sexual immorality of all kinds that
26:18
come to accept all that sexual immorality.
26:21
Oh, that's all all just fine.
26:22
Uh well let's take something else like uh
26:24
bank robbery, you know.
26:26
So if a person was a bank robber,
26:28
this was their profession, this is how they
26:31
they they put money in their bank account
26:33
themselves, but uh they robbed banks, and one
26:35
day they went into a church for some
26:37
reason and they heard the gospel message and
26:39
they said, Wow, yes, I want a relationship
26:41
with Jesus.
26:44
Go forward, pray a prayer, and you know,
26:46
they're sure you are now a Christian.
26:48
You are now a child of God, you're
26:50
on the road to heaven, and all this
26:52
great assurance, but they never repent of their
26:54
bank robbery, and they continue as bank robbers.
26:57
It's like they could say, Well, yeah, I'm
26:58
a Christian bank robber, you know, I I
27:00
leave a gospel track after I rob the
27:02
bank or something like that.
27:04
Wait a minute, I think you missed the
27:07
point of the gospel, you know, repentance, that
27:10
uh wherever there is sin in your life,
27:12
you need to identify that sin and repent
27:15
of that sin, which means you have a
27:17
change of heart and you have a change
27:20
of mind, which will always result in a
27:22
change of behavior, and so you were once
27:25
a bank robber, but you came to Christ
27:27
and you are no longer a bank robber.
27:30
In fact, Paul says to the Corinthians, you
27:32
know, some of you were involved in all
27:34
of this gross sexual immorality, even sodomy, some
27:37
of you were involved in that, but you
27:39
were washed, you were cleansed, you are now
27:41
new people, you are no longer involved in
27:43
that.
27:45
In fact, Paul uh makes it clear that
27:47
those who are engaged in ongoing uh sexual
27:50
immorality will not be in the kingdom of
27:52
the Lord.
27:54
So I think one of the dangers of
27:56
of uh a message that some uh message
27:58
of the gospel that somehow leaves out repentance,
28:00
out repentance.
28:01
the result is that there's many false births
28:01
The result is that there's many false births
28:03
of people who may think they're born again
28:04
of people who may think they're born again
28:05
and think they're on the road to heaven,
28:06
and think they're on the road to heaven.
28:07
when in fact i it is exactly uh
28:09
When in fact it it is exactly the
28:09
the opposite.
28:10
opposite.
28:12
Um I don't know, uh Jim, in your
28:12
I don't know, uh Jim, in your years
28:14
years of ministry, have you seen kind of
28:14
of ministry, have you seen kind of the
28:17
the de emphasis of of uh repentance in
28:17
de emphasis of of uh repentance in the
28:19
the in the gospel message?
28:19
in the gospel message?
28:23
That again another good question.
28:23
Again, another good question.
28:25
Um possibly, Dave.
28:25
Um possibly Dave, I mean there's different audiences
28:27
I mean, there's different audiences and different
28:28
and different groups and how do you deliver
28:31
that message contextually you know you think more
28:34
like uh missionaries and you want to say
28:36
okay how is it how do I make
28:39
it as understandable as possible.
28:42
At some point of course you have to
28:45
get to the point of repentance um that
28:48
obviously I think then in more recent years,
28:50
decades, uh we recognize that there's a a
28:53
lot of people with uh traumatic backgrounds and
28:55
pain out there and that could be an
28:58
avenue to by by reaching people that way.
29:00
I mean Jesus, you know, was out there
29:02
with a lot of felt needs meeting a
29:04
lot of felt needs, etc.
29:06
Uh but that was a stepping stone to
29:07
the message.
29:09
Um do you emphasise on repentance?
29:12
Well I don't know.
29:13
I I would have to come down to
29:15
the kind of personal conversations people have.
29:17
Although you know you take for example many
29:20
of your the whole uh sacred sensitive movement
29:22
was first we identify with you incarnationally we
29:25
understand the things you're going through in life
29:28
and and and uh but the reason for
29:30
that is the sin and brokenness of the
29:33
world and Jesus is the God's answer to
29:35
that and um you have to obviously say
29:38
this is the way to salvation and the
29:40
way to be reconciled with God.
29:43
How many steps it takes to get there,
29:45
I don't know.
29:46
Uh you know you know you got Billy
29:49
Graham could count on a a lot of
29:51
Christian consensus in nineteen seventy two.
29:54
Um in 2026 that consensus is not there
29:56
anymore.
29:59
So where do you where do you put
30:01
that repentance point immediately or can you lead
30:03
people to it?
30:05
You're thinking more as a missionary would say
30:07
coming to this country or going or we
30:08
go to another country.
30:10
I don't know if I've confused the answer
30:12
or if I clear or not but that's
30:13
kind of the way I see it.
30:16
Thank you.
30:17
And Brian how uh you know you were
30:20
for years a college professor uh and and
30:22
dean and so did you see in the
30:25
student body things that uh that caused your
30:28
concern in this regard yeah I I saw
30:30
that uh it wasn't what we're experiencing seem
30:33
to be experiencing today uh but there were
30:36
a lot of Christian kids that came to
30:39
the college and gravitated to my cour courses
30:41
because of the fact I presented first off
30:44
a conservative political view but also a biblical
30:47
view and the Christians just that were in
30:49
the school just ate that up and uh
30:52
as a result of that they were uh
30:55
encouraged to live their faith out uh day
30:58
to day.
31:00
Uh and we need to understand that revivals
31:03
uh are an extraordinary movement of the Holy
31:05
Spirit.
31:07
Uh and I can't emphasize this enough revival
31:09
doesn't happen unless God is present to make
31:11
it happen.
31:15
First revivals are the re restoration of the
31:18
church to a vital and fervent walk with
31:21
God after a period of moral religious cultural
31:25
decline and we have seen that there's just
31:28
this overwhelming awareness of the presence of sin
31:32
with a passionate longing for holiness and unusual
31:35
effectiveness in evangelism leading to the salvation of
31:39
masses of unbelievers.
31:42
And then these mass conversions dramatically moved the
31:45
culture from secularism to Christian, which is what
31:48
we hope to see happen.
31:51
But all revivals in the past were the
31:53
result of men taking a stand to walk
31:56
with Christ and go against the culture of
31:58
their day.
32:00
There was a return to big biblical truth
32:03
and teaching and revivals occurred even back in
32:06
the old testament after times of national decline
32:08
and restoration.
32:12
For example, Josiah reinstituted temple worship while destroying
32:15
pagan worship in Second Kings 23.
32:19
It says all of Judah gathered at the
32:22
temple and Josiah read the scriptures aloud the
32:25
king renewed the covenant in the presence of
32:28
the Lord to follow the Lord and keep
32:31
his commands with all his heart then all
32:34
the people pledged themselves to the covenant and
32:37
then Josiah tore down all the idols and
32:40
a great revival breaks out.
32:43
There was another one under Ezra in Nehemiah
32:45
after the Babylonian captivity.
33:20
Again men stood against the culture revival breaks
33:22
out Jesus does the same thing chooses 11
33:25
men all authority in heaven as an earth
33:28
has been given to me go preach the
33:31
gospel and Jesus just had people flock to
33:34
him and come in repentance because it says
33:36
he taught them with one who had authority
33:39
which meant he talked about what God said
33:42
not what they wished God said or what
33:45
this verse means to me.
33:48
They talked about he talked about what God
33:50
said and it revolutionized the world.
33:53
Amen and we we have in our own
33:55
history that that Great Awakening by the way
33:57
if you haven't seen the movie A Great
34:00
Awakening I would highly recommend it Sight and
34:02
Sound does an excellent job of all their
34:04
productions and they they produce that movie.
34:07
But it traces what uh George Whitfield was
34:09
doing as he preached throughout the colonies.
34:11
He preached in all the colonies they said
34:14
uh uh tens of thousands heard him uh
34:16
each month as he moved from from place
34:19
to place and uh uh Benjamin Franklin was
34:22
fascinated by uh his speaking ability was was
34:24
what was he was first focused on how
34:27
many blocks away he could go and still
34:30
hear the voice of George Whitfield but uh
34:32
so he was kind of amazed by that
34:35
but uh we hope that the gospel did
34:37
ultimately penetrate uh uh Benjamin Franklin's heart although
34:40
uh much of his life it did not
34:43
seem to do so but you're right that
34:45
the darker a culture becomes and I think
34:48
that uh we can definitely see that our
34:51
culture has become darker than perhaps any other
34:53
time in American history no other time in
34:56
American history other than the past fifty years
34:59
have millions of babies every year been slaughtered
35:00
Babies every year been slaughtered in the place
35:01
in the place that should be the most
35:02
that should be the most sacred and safe
35:04
place that they have on earth, their mother's
35:04
sacred and safe place that they have on
35:06
womb.
35:07
earth their mother's womb and uh never in
35:08
And uh never in the history of America
35:09
the history of America have uh false religions
35:11
have uh false religions, whether Buddhism or Hinduism
35:12
whether Buddhism or Hinduism or Mohammedism or any
35:14
or Mohammedism or any of the other isms
35:15
of the other isms swept through our land
35:17
swept through our land and have so many
35:17
and have so many people following them whole
35:20
people following them, whole sections of Michigan.
35:20
sections of Michigan.
35:23
I have friends that uh have left Michigan
35:23
I have friends that uh have left Michigan
35:25
because uh uh speaking out against Mohammedanism there
35:25
because uh uh speaking out against Mohammedanism there
35:27
became a
35:28
became a a danger to their safety because
35:30
so much of uh Southern Michigan is under
35:33
the control of uh the Mohammedans who are
35:35
doing what uh Muhammad basically teaches them to
35:37
do.
35:40
They're good disciples of Muhammad, but that means
35:42
they're a danger to anyone who will not
35:44
become a a follower of Muhammad.
35:47
So we have conditions where uh uh unlike
35:49
any other time in the history of our
35:52
nation, we are ripe for a revival and
35:54
ripe for that kind of transformation of our
35:57
culture that would turn us back uh to
36:00
true faith and following Jesus Christ as King
36:02
of Kings and Lord of Lords.
36:05
The question is are we ready for that?
36:08
And we're gonna go to a break here
36:10
in just a minute, but when we come
36:12
back from the break, Jim, I'd love to
36:13
hear from you what you're seeing is you've
36:15
worked with many, many churches across this uh
36:17
country, uh worked at church planting and are
36:19
working with a church right now.
36:21
I'd like to hear what what you see
36:23
on on the ground in terms of what
36:26
is happening with many churches closing their doors.
36:28
And this is a phenomenon that I think
36:30
is unusual also in in the history of
36:32
America.
36:35
But as we uh prepare to go to
36:37
a break, we're on America Out Loud Talk
36:39
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But uh they can be heard on Apple,
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37:04
and many more.
37:06
And be sure to check out America Outloud.news
37:09
as your daily source of the latest news
37:12
and happenings from a truly uh conservative biblical
37:15
perspective.
37:18
And we here at uh uh Don't Imbibe
37:20
the Kool-Aid want to teach you those two
37:22
litmus tests by which we ought to measure
37:25
every truth craim.
37:27
Now, the first, of course, is the word
37:29
of God itself, what our founders call the
37:31
laws of nature and nature's god, and the
37:33
second being our founding documents, the Declaration, the
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Constitution, and Bill of Rights.
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All right, we're coming back with Don't Imbibe
39:02
the Kool-Aid, where we look at the two
39:04
litmus tests to determine every truth claim that
39:06
comes our way, uh, whether it is in
39:09
fact the truth or not, and the first
39:11
list litmus test, of course, is the word
39:14
of God itself.
39:16
The second our founding documents, the declaration of
39:18
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
39:20
Now, before the break, we were just talking
39:22
about the revivals that are potentially taking place
39:24
and what's happening in our country.
39:27
And Jim, you've been a pastor for many
39:29
years and planted many churches, and you've got
39:31
a uh kind of a bit of a
39:33
pulse, I think, on what's happening with churches
39:35
in America.
39:37
Many churches aging out and uh actually closing
39:40
their doors and uh selling off their facilities.
39:43
What do what do you see happening, Jim?
39:45
Well, yeah, Dave.
39:47
Um again, I I'm just uh I'm a
39:49
I'm just a little guy over here in
39:51
Florida, and I uh I have to rely
39:53
on a lot of smarter and people who
39:55
do a lot of research in this area,
39:57
so I'm just gonna kind of quote you
39:59
from those folks.
40:01
But what what what they seem to summarize
40:03
this whole situation is like this.
40:05
If you can imagine a tree at the
40:07
roots of the tree is our Christology, right?
40:10
What we believe about Jesus is the only
40:11
name given among heaven among men by which
40:13
he must be saved.
40:15
And the Bible is the authority of the
40:16
word of God, as you're mentioning earlier.
40:18
So that's the root of the tree.
40:20
The trunk of the tree would be grows
40:21
out of that Christology, which is to make
40:23
disciples of all nations, right?
40:25
Or we'll call that our missiology.
40:27
So you have you have Christology and theology
40:30
at the bottom, you have missiology at the
40:32
trunk, and then what grows out of that
40:34
is your ecclesiology, which is the fruit, the
40:37
top of the tree of all of your
40:39
missions, all of your making disciples.
40:42
What's been happening in this country is we've
40:44
forgotten the missiology.
40:47
Uh we focus a lot on the ecclesiology.
40:50
We make sure we do Sunday morning perfectly
40:52
right, and we still keep our Christology at
40:54
the roots, but there's nothing connecting the root
40:56
with the fruit.
40:58
Um it's the fruit is from a bygone
40:59
time.
41:01
And so what needs to re be recaptured,
41:04
I think, especially as we see these young
41:06
people, um, is to get them involved in
41:09
missiology, continuing to share Christ uh all along
41:11
the way uh within the sphere of life
41:13
that they have.
41:16
But that's largely been forgotten in our our
41:19
traditional evangelical churches.
41:22
And so that's part of the reason why
41:24
so many of them, about three three thousand
41:26
five hundred are closing every year.
41:29
Now that's the wide spectrum.
41:30
That includes Catholic churches, etc.
41:32
But a lot of the evangelical churches as
41:34
well, especially among the Southern Baptists, they've lost
41:36
a quite millions over the last uh twenty
41:39
years.
41:41
So and even my denomination, the PCA, which
41:44
keeps great records, it's very reliable record keeping.
41:48
Uh seventy-some percent of our churches are stagnant,
41:51
are in decline, and the only ones that
41:53
are really growing are the largest ones, and
41:56
their 90% is transfer growth.
41:59
And that so that's all, like I said,
42:00
So that's all like I said, I'm just
42:01
I'm just giving you stats from the people.
42:01
giving you stats from the people.
42:03
Yeah, but that's helpful, Jim.
42:03
Yeah, but that's helpful, Jim.
42:04
Yeah, Ryan Burge would be a uh a
42:04
Yeah, Ryan Burge would be a a great
42:05
great resource for anybody's trying to figure this
42:06
resource for anybody's trying to figure this out.
42:07
out.
42:09
He does fantastic research on all of this,
42:09
He does fantastic research on all of this,
42:11
so I'm getting my statistics from him.
42:11
so I'm getting my statistics from him.
42:14
Um, your average pastor as well, I was
42:14
Um, your average pastor as well.
42:16
mentioning to you that when I went to
42:18
I was mentioning to you that when I
42:19
seminary in the early eighties, the model of
42:20
went to seminary in the early eighties, the
42:22
ministry we were given to imitate and replicate
42:22
model of ministry we were given to imitate
42:24
was one of a chaplain.
42:25
and replicate, was one of the chaplain.
42:27
And chaplains don't think strategically.
42:27
And chaplains don't think strategically.
42:29
Missionaries have to think strategically.
42:31
Oh, yes.
42:32
Chaplains don't have to.
42:33
They just assume there's going to be plenty
42:35
of people who will come to this building
42:37
with a steeple and stained glass windows, and
42:40
when they need God, they'll show up.
42:42
And I'll take care of them.
42:43
And then they'll be happy the rest of
42:45
their week or whatever.
42:47
And that has to change.
42:48
We have to have a whole different model.
42:50
We have to have the make discipleship model.
42:52
And um, you you know, I don't know,
42:54
David, the churches I've been involved with, the
42:56
people who really gravitate to the make discipleship
42:58
model were those who were in something like
43:01
Campus Crusade.
43:03
That was part of the the sponsors of
43:05
Expo 72, Brian, right?
43:06
I mean, it was a campus crusade thing.
43:08
That's right.
43:09
Yeah.
43:10
So you see, if you've gone through that
43:12
kind of discipleship in college, you tend to
43:13
reproduce it in the local church.
43:15
But if you haven't, then you just concentrated
43:17
being a nice little dutiful church member and
43:20
supporting the pastor while he is your chaplain.
43:22
And so the whole model of philosophy ministry
43:25
has to shift back to the New Testament
43:27
model of philosophy and ministry of making disciples
43:29
of all the nations, starting in your Jerusalem
43:32
and your Judea and your Samaria and to
43:34
the ends of the earth.
43:37
Um and that's when I'm hoping the younger
43:39
generation now that we're seeing some revival on
43:41
the campuses, as you're mentioning, that somebody gets
43:43
a hold of them uh and says, Look,
43:46
you know, there's still uh thousands of people
43:48
groups that need to be one.
43:51
Uh and they could be living right next
43:52
door to you.
43:53
You know, one of the largest Sikh populations
43:55
in this country is Kansas City.
43:57
Really?
43:58
Yeah.
43:59
And and and think about Michigan.
44:01
I mean, my goodness, weren't there a lot
44:03
of evangelicals in Michigan?
44:04
Yes.
44:05
About Minneapolis.
44:06
That was Billy Graham's headquarters.
44:08
You could write a fifty years ago, you
44:10
could send a letter to Billy Graham, Minneapolis,
44:12
and it would get to him.
44:14
That's what he promised to do on air.
44:15
See, so w Christians lost their missiology, the
44:18
culture around them changed, and they don't know
44:20
what to do other than leave.
44:23
So um, and I'm not criticizing your friend
44:25
that didn't because it is a hostile environment,
44:27
but we have failed to understand to look
44:29
at our culture emsiologically.
44:31
We just look at it as something to
44:33
control rather than something to change influence through
44:35
the gospel.
44:37
That's that's my soapbox for today.
44:39
No, that's great, Jim.
44:40
And y you told me that you're working
44:42
with a church that is in uh decline,
44:44
it's so in in that category.
44:47
Tell us about that situation and what uh
44:49
you're hoping to see happen uh i for
44:51
that that congregation.
44:53
Well, it's it's fifty people all in their
44:55
seventies to their nineties.
44:57
Wonderful people, godly people, but but for the
44:59
for many decades they were under the same
45:02
kind of ministry that I was trained under
45:04
and their pastor was, and that's a chaplaincy.
45:07
Uh and so the the neighborhood has changed
45:09
right next door to the church, the neighborhood
45:11
is forty percent Haitian.
45:13
Wow.
45:14
Um, and there is a Haitian church, but
45:15
there's no cooperation between the real just a
45:17
little bit.
45:19
There's a little bit, I should correct correct
45:20
that.
45:22
But it's a failure again to look at
45:23
the culture around you missiology.
45:25
And then just a block down the road,
45:27
Dave, our million to two million dollar houses.
45:30
It's it's a mixture, but what do you
45:32
how do you get into those people's lives?
45:35
Um what was else was I going to
45:36
say?
45:37
What was your question?
45:38
Well, yeah, because we we'll think it uh
45:40
if we're thinking strategically, like I said, we
45:42
need to think as missionaries that we're you
45:43
know, we're in a foreign culture in a
45:45
lot of ways.
45:47
Yeah, you're asking me about the church.
45:49
Yeah.
45:49
What I'm hoping to happen there is what
45:51
happened.
45:52
I went through in 1995.
45:54
We were we were a thriving younger congregation
45:56
of younger families, and we were in a
45:58
rented facility, and the businessman who owned the
46:00
building said he wanted to convert it.
46:02
He gave us nine months to get out.
46:04
We looked around, we were in a semi-rural
46:06
area in Virginia, we couldn't find anything.
46:08
Two miles down the road, an older congregation
46:10
that had been around since eighteen ninety, uh,
46:12
was in decline, just like the church I'm
46:14
working with today.
46:16
All older people, uh nice facility, couldn't afford
46:18
it anymore.
46:21
They found out about us, they said, This
46:23
is how large their hearts were, Dave.
46:25
We were very different.
46:26
We were Presbyterian in government, they were congregational.
46:29
They never had a full-time pastor.
46:31
I was a teaching pulpit.
46:33
You know, they never had small groups.
46:34
That was the that the DNA of our
46:36
church is small groups.
46:37
We were contemporary worship.
46:39
They were just an organ, you know, but
46:40
they looked at us and they said, Here's
46:42
the future.
46:43
Let's bring this gang in, give them everything,
46:45
and then when we die, we know there's
46:47
a church there for the next fifty years.
46:52
So and that's what I think needs to
46:54
happen to so many places today, rather than
46:56
say, we're gonna hold on to these traditions
46:57
until the last person dies.
47:00
Um find a younger group and mentor them
47:02
into your situation and then say, thank you,
47:04
Lord, we could we can know that for
47:06
the next fifty years there's gonna be a
47:08
a gospel preaching church here.
47:11
Amen.
47:12
And uh go ahead, Brian, you were gonna
47:13
comment.
47:14
Yeah, I was gonna say the thing that
47:17
really is encouraging me about what I'm reading,
47:19
it's happening uh in our culture is that
47:21
it's young men in particular who are coming
47:23
to Christ.
47:26
And that's the way it's always happened in
47:27
the past.
47:29
And you know, America needs a revival.
47:31
Uh a study done by the Southern Baptist
47:33
Convention reeled what revealed when a child is
47:36
reached for Christ, there's a two percent chance
47:38
the in child's entire family would come to
47:41
Christ and come to church.
47:43
Uh when a woman was reached for Christ,
47:45
it was seventeen percent.
47:47
However, the study showed when a man was
47:50
reached for Christ, there was a ninety-four percent
47:52
chance that the entire family would come to
47:55
Christ and to the church.
47:58
Uh and most men are one to Christ
48:00
by other other men.
48:02
Uh talk about the missiology here.
48:04
Studies show that women outnumber men in church
48:07
attendance in every crimp Christian denomination.
48:10
But and and I think it's because children
48:13
churches have children's pastors, they have youth pastors,
48:16
visitation pastors, women's pastors.
48:19
Where are the men's evangelism pastors?
48:22
That's the mission we need.
48:24
And if revival is ever going to come,
48:26
it will come the way it did in
48:27
the past.
48:29
Christian men will have to get serious about
48:32
being warriors for Christ to reach their community
48:35
and this country with the gospel.
48:37
A national revival may depend on your walk
48:41
with God man that's listening to me.
48:45
And I'm I'm asking, men, are you up
48:46
for the challenge?
48:48
First Corinthians 16 says, be on the alert,
48:51
stand firm in the faith, act like men,
48:54
be strong.
48:57
And then will you say like Martin Luther
48:59
did when he was on trial, here I
49:00
When he was on trial, here I stand,
49:02
stand, I cannot do otherwise.
49:02
I cannot do otherwise.
49:04
God help me.
49:04
God help me.
49:06
Amen.
49:06
Amen.
49:07
Amen.
49:07
Amen.
49:08
Well, you know.
49:08
Well, you know.
49:10
Uh he's absolutely right, and about the men,
49:10
He's absolutely right, and about the men, and
49:13
and uh pastors have to set the example.
49:13
uh pastors have to set the example.
49:16
You know, you can't stand in your pulpit
49:16
You know, you can't stand in your pulpit
49:17
and tell people to share Christ with people
49:17
and tell people to share Christ with people
49:19
in your workplace or in your neighborhood without
49:19
in your workplace or in your neighborhood without
49:21
you doing it yourself.
49:21
you doing it yourself.
49:23
And thank I thank God that my wife
49:23
And thank I thank God that my wife
49:24
and I had the burden to do that
49:25
and I had the burden to do that
49:26
in the neighborhoods we've lived in, we would
49:26
in the neighborhoods we've lived in, we would
49:28
host the Labor Day picnic.
49:28
host the Labor Day picnics.
49:30
We had hospitality of people in our homes,
49:32
and also through my musical talent that God
49:33
has given me, I've been able to get
49:35
into different music groups, like for right now
49:37
I'm playing bass in an 18 piece swing
49:39
band.
49:41
Oh, really?
49:43
Yeah, and it's 70% Jewish.
49:45
Wow.
49:47
Must have retired, and uh they know who
49:48
I am.
49:50
And and even and I used to in
49:52
Pennsylvania, I used to play in open mic
49:53
situations where you know you go to a
49:55
little club and somebody gets up with their
49:56
guitar and they they do a song, and
49:58
I would be there with my bass if
49:59
they want an accompany us.
50:01
And they knew me as the Reverend Jim,
50:03
who plays the bass, and I used to
50:04
sometimes I'd be there for four hours playing
50:06
along with people.
50:08
But you get to know non-Christians.
50:10
And you have to set that well, my
50:12
point is the pastor has to be able
50:14
to say to his congregation, here's how I
50:16
am trying to penetrate the world with the
50:18
gospel.
50:20
Um and that way your men can say,
50:23
well, if he's gonna do that, uh then
50:25
he can train me to do that.
50:27
And I so I think that's just part
50:29
and parcel of if we're going to see
50:31
fruit of these, especially with these young men.
50:33
They can't just go to a church and
50:35
watch the guy um uh pontificate every Sunday
50:37
and tell them what the Bible says.
50:39
Here's another thing.
50:40
I mean, the internet now, you can get
50:41
the best of the best of the best
50:42
every Sunday.
50:44
You wouldn't even have to go to church,
50:45
you know, when it comes to sermons.
50:47
So I would love to see the the
50:49
Ephesians 4 model become the dominant model, where
50:51
the pastor is the equipper of the saints
50:53
so they can do the ministry.
50:55
Um and I'd love to see the younger
50:57
men get a hold of that and say,
50:59
Pastor, show me how to lead somebody to
51:00
Christ.
51:02
Show me how to have people into my
51:03
home.
51:04
Um that's that would be my piggyback on
51:06
what Brian is having to say.
51:08
Oh, amen.
51:09
Uh you know, we see what Jesus did.
51:11
Life on life was his method of discipleship.
51:14
He was living with them, walking with them,
51:16
teaching, ministering, uh, and and we that need
51:18
that kind of life on life interaction with
51:21
people, not the ivory tower model that you
51:23
know, the preacher comes out and issues his
51:25
uh magnificent sermon, and and the people don't
51:27
see him for the rest of the week
51:29
and he has no interaction with them.
51:32
That's uh a failed model.
51:33
And perhaps, Jim, that's why some of the
51:35
mega churches are uh falling apart.
51:38
I I understand that the there's a tendency
51:39
to move away from mega churches in our
51:41
day.
51:43
Yeah.
51:44
Yeah, they're they're they they say that the
51:46
the researchers say that's peaked in 2020.
51:49
Oh, is it?
51:50
Yeah.
51:50
Yeah.
51:51
Uh because the the boomers are getting older
51:52
and the younger generations is saying, okay, that's
51:54
a performance.
51:56
And you know, I used to, when it
51:57
comes to the um mega churches, I would
51:59
say, Well, what if Billy Grant came to
52:01
your city and never left?
52:03
You know, what would he do?
52:05
He'd probably do something kind of similar to
52:07
what the mega churches do.
52:09
But then their great feeling was, and this
52:11
has been in their studies of them, even
52:13
their own self-discovery, that they never really taught
52:15
people how to walk with the Lord.
52:18
Taught them how to be faithful in that
52:20
particular church culture, but they didn't create deeper
52:22
followers of the Lord.
52:25
And so it would have been nice if
52:27
some of these mega churches had been willing
52:29
to spin off a hundred people there and
52:31
a hundred people there and a hundred people
52:33
there, to start a more local uh smaller
52:35
group where where there could be some real
52:37
disciple making pastoring.
52:39
Um I think the younger generation is saying,
52:41
I need more than just being entertained on
52:43
a Sunday morning.
52:45
It's okay if you want to say that's
52:47
how we bring people into the kingdom.
52:49
Okay.
52:49
And they did a lot of that, but
52:51
there's you're not making disciples.
52:53
You're just making events.
52:54
And you're bringing people to Christ, but then
52:56
you're not really bringing them to maturity.
52:59
That's the that's the key thing.
53:01
And part of that maturity, again, I'll just
53:03
sound like a broken record, is missiology.
53:06
That has to be part of the central
53:07
part of that maturity.
53:09
And what what I'm seeing is that uh
53:11
because of the huge number of broken families.
53:14
I mean, it's unusual to encounter people who
53:16
don't come from broken families, they need that
53:19
kind of loving relationship that a good parent,
53:22
father or mother would be showing to their
53:24
children because they haven't grown up with that.
53:27
And so if you can love people in
53:30
that capacity, uh there's a huge way uh
53:33
of of reaching people with a gospel, but
53:35
then also making disciples of them once they
53:38
come to faith in Christ.
53:41
Yes.
53:42
Yes.
53:43
And that's another avenue that some people are
53:45
finding very fruitful when it comes to evangelism
53:47
and discipleship is the whole concept of trauma
53:49
and childhood trauma.
53:52
Um that's a great open door to people
53:53
trying to figure out how do I cope
53:55
with life.
53:58
How do I develop good relationships?
54:00
How can I be successful in life?
54:01
And well, the problem is the traumas of
54:03
your childhood are the past is controlling the
54:04
present.
54:06
Mm-hmm.
54:07
You know, and but the present is not
54:08
like the past.
54:10
So I much especially my wife has found
54:11
great open doors in and leading people to
54:13
Christ.
54:15
One in our neighborhood, uh, because of the
54:17
connection with childhood trauma.
54:21
And that just takes a sensitivity on our
54:23
part to be uh hearing where people are
54:26
at uh and and discovering ways that we
54:29
can connect with them and share, hey, we've
54:31
got the best parent in the world, our
54:34
father in heaven and and his son, our
54:37
Lord Jesus Christ, and uh the ministry they
54:39
can have in transforming our lives uh uh
54:42
will will impact future generations.
54:45
The thing that is so encouraging to me
54:47
is to be able to see folks come
54:49
to faith in Christ from broken families, and
54:52
then as they've been discipled, able to find
54:54
another disciple, marry and begin to raise children
54:57
in a way that they were never raised.
54:59
In other words, to have an intact family,
55:01
although they came from a broken family, and
55:04
and uh I know that statistically that kind
55:06
of runs against the grain as to what
55:08
they say likely is going to happen with
55:10
most people, but we can see the transforming
55:13
power of the gospel uh can uh uh
55:15
uh alter their circumstances such that they are
55:17
not going to repeat the life that their
55:19
parents gave to them.
55:22
Amen.
55:23
Excellent.
55:24
Well, this has been uh a great interview,
55:26
Jim.
55:27
I I appreciate so much your time and
55:29
and your expertise and and your years of
55:31
service to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
55:33
and uh here on Don't Imbibe the Kool-Aid,
55:35
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55:37
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55:40
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55:42
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55:44
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55:46
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55:48
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55:50
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55:53
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