Latest / OCCULTINARIUM / Occultinarium - EP 24 - 5 of Wands
Transcript
- Lynn: Welcome to tonight's episode of the Ocultinarium. We're the voices of the Occultinarium and your host, Sarah. Luigi: Luigi. Amelie: you Lynn: And Lynn. tonight we shall jump into the next tarot card. So we just got into the next decan of the Wheel of the Year. We are now in the era to call it of Leo. first decon of Leo. So tonight's cards ra yes Ra Tonight's Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: my god, this is on air, so people heroes rah. forever anyway Amelie: Throooorrrr Lynn: rightfully so we are in the five of ones so I am bringing up the the Smith version here and then the Thoth version on the other side Amelie: Let me do the Golden Dawn version there. Lynn: Yeah, would you have do you have the hermetic as well with you? So if if you want you Amelie: Yeah. Lynn: can bring up both and then the hermetic and the golden dawn we we said this shortly in our last episode, was the last second, of Cancer that this daccan in some traditions depicts the start of the year. So for our usual traditions, our Hellenistic traditions it's all usually starts with Aries. but in as Luigi pointed out, in Egypt the rising of the Nile would usually be around this this time of year and that would start off the fertility and the life. The year in Egypt. Last time I think we talked about the the Hermetic and the Golden Dawn first, because why not? Because Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: we know least about these, I guess, and because they're a little less traditional. Although that's not right because they're more traditional in the sun, sorry, that the ones Amelie: I was about Luigi: I guess they're not very they're very they're not Amelie: to say... Lynn: Yeah, go watch it. Luigi: very commercially popular. No, who am I to say that, but you know what I mean? Like in mainstream Thoth, Lynn: Yeah. Yes. Luigi: Smith tend to be pushed like, look what I'm using, look what I'm using and these Lynn: Mm. Mm. Luigi: two tend to be more for the geeks amongst us, including ourselves. Lynn: Yes, you put that very eloquently, that's what I tried to find. I didn't find the words. Luigi: Ha ha ha. Amelie: Geeks! Lynn: Quirks. yes. Well I do not have the golden dawn one out. but do you wanna do you wanna put yours up again, Amelie? Right. So we have two hands, two green hands. this is interesting. I have some stuff to say, I think that's something just recently read. Green hands Amelie: Bye Lynn: and holding five wands on a very dark red background. The ones are red and the tips of the ones are yellow, and then we see Saturn and we see the Leo sign and well the fire element and strife, Lord of Strife. very fascinating I see that 'cause I just recently come across this imagery of an alchemist imagery of green line eating the sun. as fittingly for Leo and the sun and all that. and in that thing that I read alchemically speaking green was used as a color of things that are unripe. I only know like I don't know very much about it. But it's just it that kind of triggered when when I saw this very green the very green hands. Whatever that might mean. Yeah. Luigi: Yeah yeah yeah the green line representing nature untamed. Lynn: Mm. And then ingesting the sun to, you know, to Luigi: Transform. Lynn: transform it. Yeah. Amelie: They're supposed to be hands of angels. Angel hands, apparently. So what kind of angel is this? Like the Grinch? Lynn: Yes. Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: Very a very Amelie: you Lynn: green. Is that co copper turns green, right? with age. Isn't that copper when when it rains on? It's like a copper like a copper a copper angel, hmm. Amelie: Yeah, it does. It does actually. It does actually, yeah. So the background is supposed to be orange, as in the mix of the red and yellow. But I guess Lynn: Mm. Yeah, that makes sense. Amelie: it's difficult to see as well because it's just extremely orange. Yeah. Lynn: Yeah. I do love how bright and colourful these cards are, as opposed to the hermatic where we just having black and white and then grisly images of like lions and this the stuff and ugh I mean there's a lot going on in these in these hermatic ones. Yeah. The crocodiles. Luigi: Yeah, I can see the symbol I think it's the is that the symbol for the north node in the circle in the center where you got like this the glyph of Saturn as well. Lynn: Yes, isn't it? That's true. 'Cause at first I just thought Luigi: That's intriguing. Lynn: I thought it was lion because maybe it's also just the way that this designer depicts the lion because but it is it looks like the north node, doesn't it? Because Luigi: Hm. Lynn: it's here and here, but it should be the lion. goodness. Yeah, it looks like the north Amelie: One lion is angry, the other one is drunk. That's what I see. Luigi: Hey hey. Lynn: note, but I suppose it's supposed to be the lion, no? Because we we have the lion which this should be should also be lion symbols. So I do not know. Luigi: I think I remember coming across a content creator recently. There's something to do with the similarities. we need I need to look up what the content creator's name was because so we can maybe credit them. But basically there was a similarity in the symbolism of the lion and the symbolism of the snake. and Lynn: Mm. Luigi: in fact we know that in the system that we use for the taro, the strength card, the Leo card, the lion's card has the Hebrew letter tet, which is attached to the symbol of the serpent. As well, interestingly enough, as well as the glyph of Leo representing somewhat of a serpent in itself. yeah, and even if you look at the tough card with the lust, like the tail of the creature, you can call the creature a lion if you will, but the crail the tail of the cre the crail, the tail of the creature also being some a version of a serpent. Lynn: Yes. Luigi: yeah, and so I I suppose When it comes to the symbolism of the lion and the serpent and the correlation of it, by extension, we need to look into the symbolism of the dragon because the north node in a way can represent the dragon's head versus the dragon's tail. So possibly that we'll we can look into it and maybe add notes as needed as we explore the six of ones and the seven of ones because it's still busily a season. But yeah, it will be interesting Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: to look into the north node correlation of the five of ones. Lynn: Yeah. Right. this is the second fire sign. If you're starting with our tradition, we're starting with Aries, right? And in in Aries it was all about or it's all about trying to establish the self. So we're having the rulership with Mars and having like this energy of like finding out who you are. With Leo we already have like an established self and the the rulers of this deck and actually are the sun and saturn in in the two different orders and the interesting thing is that we have the same rulers for two different two other placements meccanic placements and that is the last decken of Sagittarius and the last deck of Gemini. So the Ten of Swords, which we already covered, and the Ten of Wands share the same rulers as the Five of Wands. So we can discuss this as we go along because I feel there's something to unpack there. but yeah, for now let's just say the descending order is Saturn ruled and the triple C D order is sun ruled. and for what I know about the traditional deccanic images is that neither of the tarot cards follow any of the traditional images for this deccan. So it's it's very it's very different. so there's this idea of the the five, or five of wands, like the strife, there's this idea of like you see it I mean best in the Smith version I guess. You have you have many different forces that all try to compete for the same thing. It's kind of like it's kind of like Luigi, you know, like actors trying trying out for the same role. They're all there for the same thing, but they're all kind of competitors. and none of them work towards the same like they they're working they're not working together for the same goal. They're all kind of doing their own thing and so nothing gets nothing gets done in a constructive way. I I've heard that Smith was inspired to draw this by having friends over that were supposed to put up her rose trellis in her garden and they were all just doing something else with the trellis and nobody was coordinating and then it looked more like people going to battle than actually them putting up rose trolls. That's what I've heard about this the inspiration for her. Amelie: It's very Leo though, right? Lynn: It is quite Leo, yes. It's like me me Amelie: because you wanna, yeah, I know better. I know, no, no, no, I know better. So I'm just Lynn: Mm. Amelie: gonna do my thing because I know better. Lynn: Hmm. It has a very battle royal kind of energy, this card. Like only one can win, but there's a like like a lot of competitors. And it it also has this energy of that you're doing something or or trying out something that you're very good at, like Liu, like something where you're actually like feel you're shiny, you're very good at sun sun, but you're also simultaneously being judged by like for it. and that's the Saturnian energy that we're getting here. So being able to have the courage But you need to step into the light and actually show what you can do, like this courage, but then also being able to or failing to be judged under the harsh light and the critiques of others. And then maybe not getting the role, right? So if you're one of those five actors and you're competing, you might not be the one winning in the end, right? But you want to. Yes. Luigi: He Amelie: But it pushes you, it pushes you to kind of go above and beyond for what you Lynn: Yes. Amelie: might actually think that you can, so it's like, I can do this, but then you get pushed a little bit further, so Lynn: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Amelie: it's that kind of aggressiveness to... Lynn: Mm. Amelie: not aggressiveness necessarily to kill somebody, but aggressiveness to like push yourself further. Lynn: Hm, hm. I mean Liu is all about or Liu is very much about finding or or creating a personality that others can see that is mostly in congruence with what you yourself believe you are, right? Which is also this whole thing about yeah, what like the sun, right? The sun representing both the personality that you show to the world or that you want to be. That you want to see the world, what you are, but the sun also represents that inner that inner power, who you actually are and that that that inner flame, you know. I mean Ares tries to find out who it who it is, I guess, and Liu knows who it is, but now Liu wants to be, okay, I am this, how do I represent myself in a way to the world that is that that agrees with what I think I am. And I I think this is this is a very big thing for not just for Liu people, I mean for everybody, right? But just this thing of like who am I? who do I think I am and how do I represent myself to others. so so that's something that is a thing for for everybody. and depending on where you are in life, yes it's a more important or a less important thing. It's gotten very much more important for me in the past few years to represent myself more like the way that I that I think I myself am rather than what people think. And try or try and make it the same because like, you know, if I'm already the crazy bitch and I should look like it, you know, so my what screams which Amelie: Maybe that's what you're striving for, you're striving Luigi: Hmm Amelie: to be the crazy bitch, you know? Lynn: yeah. You know, just dancing out on the street in the rain and yeah. yeah. Yeah. The that is my my little thoughts on on the deck in. Your thoughts. not my thoughts. I'm just repeating what I know. It's not originating from me. Not Luigi: Hahaha Lynn: that. yeah. Luigi: I was looking at some of the color scales and Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: obviously the orange that the Golden Dawn deck that you had, Amelie, that makes complete sense because I think orange is the Azzolutian color of Ghebora, whether Scarlet or red, it's the Briatic color. So obviously you have both of those. For the green, I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but the challenge will always be my color blindness to an extent, because Leo, or rather Strength or rather Lust, It's a absolutian color, it's called greenish yellow. So it's not green, it's not yellow, it's greenish yellow. I'm looking at the hue of the color scale in front of me. It doesn't match the hue of the card that Amelie just showed us, but again, that could be my eyes having issues. Lynn: But it matches the Smith colours actually when I look at it. so in in in Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: this in the Smith we're having I mean there's so many colours going on so it's it's kind of like really representative again like how everybody's just different. Like there's one guy in orange, one guy in some yellow, green, one guy in like whitish with blue pricks on, one with green, another one with like black, green, blue, something. And their shoes are all different colours as well. The leggings are both in some greenish yellow and in red. so yeah, reds and greens or like this greenish yellow is quite well represented here in the Smith jack and in the Smith version actually, I fine. I mean the ones are always the ones colours in her depiction, but then what the people are wearing i is quite yeah, according to that scale with the reds that we're having or the orange and then there's greenish yellow. even the ground has like a kind of a greenish yellow. And here's like more like red as if they'd been trampling on this grass forever and it's starting to die. My association. Yes. Luigi: Yeah, so it's always interesting. Amelie: That burns, that burns it dry. Luigi: It's always Amelie: you Luigi: interesting to look at how the Golden Dawn color scales influenced the artists of obviously Pixie and Frida Harris and all of the other amazing individuals that followed. Or that came before, whichever. But yeah, it's always interesting to see how that magical system was always applied to the creation of a tarot deck. Lynn: Yeah. I mean in the soft we're much more in the yellow is it's much well I was gonna say more in the foreground, but it's literally the background of the card. But there's Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: a lot of yellow in this and then we're having two of the s staves, let's call it, staffs, i Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: in red and then two and the middle one in like more of a metal met metallish blue, blue green. Luigi: The yellow background, if you look at the back of your top deck card, you should have the crosses, it? So Lynn: Yes. Luigi: if you look at the, not the first ring, not the second ring, but the third ring of petals, yeah, so that, Lynn: These oranges? Yeah. There's a yellow. Luigi: the yellow petal over there that you were almost tapping upon, yeah, that one. Lynn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Luigi: So those two yellow, one of them represents Mercury, the second ring, the internal second ring that would be Mercury. And Lynn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Luigi: the one next to it on the further out ring, the third one, that would be Leo. So yellow Lynn: Yeah. Luigi: being one of the colors of Leo. Lynn: Right. Yeah, we we've not we've not touched about touched upon this ever in in our episodes and I guess we don't have to go too deep into it, but the the the three rings, right? So the the outer one is twelve, that's representative for the zodiac signs, and then the middle ring is seven, I think representing the planets or the planetary bodies. And then we have three there, which are the three alchemical elements or the three well I guess both the alchem alchemical elements and like water, fire and air, right? I suppose. Luigi: Yeah, it can be. think the way that I look at it sometimes, three petals of the rose being the... Yeah, so to me, Lynn: These are the elements. Luigi: the three petals at the center, like outside of the cross, that will be the elements themselves. But the alchemical elements will be represented, to me at least, the way that I process it in my mind and heart, by the arms of the cross itself. Lynn: Yes. Right. Yes. Because we also have the own yeah. Luigi: because you will have also the inclusion of Earth and Ether, being the darkened one and the white Lynn: Right, yes. Yes. Luigi: arm. But you know, you can easily interchange them. I mean, certain people will come and shoot... No, shoot. Please don't shoot. Will come and curse at us, being like, how dare you say that? But, you know, we... Lynn: Gonna hex us. Luigi: Axes. But we're just exploring this with an open mind, with an open heart. Lynn: Always Luigi: Always. Lynn: always. So what are your what are your experiences or feeling feelings? What what do you feel about this card? Like how do you in in like when we talked about the symbolism we talked about the decades now from a a perspective of actually doing oracle work or whatever we we call it. what is what is it? For you. Luigi: think that's an aspect... we tend to throw, forgive me the term, but we tend to throw the word transformation fairly frequently and fairly easily, but I say that with partial compassion and compassion, know, because I think transformation is at the root of overdoing in magic, in witchcraft, in crafts all together. If you think about it, even as a human being, you're born a baby, then you grow into a child, and then you further grow into a teenager and an adult and an older person and whatnot and whatnot, constantly phases of change and or transformation. So that was just a disclaimer to say, know, transformation is everywhere. It's all about transformation. Additionally, transformation, find it's an inherited quality of the fives. Kabbalistically speaking, you know belonging to Deborah, but if I can go even further if possible if allowed I will apply the theme of transformation particularly to the five of ones For more than one reason but the main reason is being the first Deccan of Leo and we know that Leo is either the son Son as in S O N or the father of the zodiac because you can see, so I look at them as both, basically, Leo being the father of the zodiac, father because all of the other signs are ruled, well, all of the other planets rule two signs, and yet there is only two planets ruling one sign. Planets, forgive me the term again, because we have the luminaries, the sun and the moon, the moon and the sun not technically being planets in scientific terms, but we'll use that. exactly, so we got... Lynn: Yeah, the same. We've covered we've covered that. That's okay. Planetary bodies, astrologically speaking. Yeah. Mm. Luigi: Precisely. So we have the Sun ruling Leo and Moon ruling Cancer, so that could be an example or an image or a metaphor of the father and the mother. However, Lynn: yeah. Luigi: we can look at the signs as the children of the luminaries. So Leo, the son, S-O-N, of the father, of the son, S-U-N, and Cancer as the daughter of the mother, aka the moon. So yeah, we got this rulership, which is very important, like the rulership of the Sun, source of all life. And yet, in this decan, or decan, we have the decanic rulership of Saturn, which represents the opposite side of the spectrum. So if the Sun is life, Saturn is death. And when I see the... Yes. And... Lynn: Yes. Yes. And quite cold as well. Mm. A very cold planet. Yes, very opposite. Mm. Luigi: In alchemical terms, I see that as the ring or the platform of the most deepest forms of transformation and transmutation and opportunity to change and transcend. So that's why I think this Decanic rulership of Saturn in the energy of Leo, as well as you can say that about every other five, But particularly in this decan, particularly in this card, it's a great opportunity, again, to transform. the will of Leo, which is infinite and un-dominable, now being, I don't know, tamed, maybe not tamed, taught, maybe taught by the archaic, primordial wisdom, or rather understanding of Saturn. Lynn: Hmm. That's very interesting. I've never I've actually never thought of it that way with the with moon and sun, or like with Cancer and Leo being like father and mother of well the the zodiac the the universe. that that was very interesting. Thank you for that input. and when you just to jump because we always jump, but two thoughts that I had. I mean you're talking a lot about transformation and transmutation. And we're having that again then in the third fire sign with Sagittarius, which is where we're having the art card and there's like the topmost chemical processes where we also have like a a lion in the card itself. But I forgive me I don't Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: have it here. There's a lion right here trying to get f in front of the screen. Oops, oopsie Luigi: She heard... Oh, I can hear the meow! Lynn: Wow, please don't go over my cards, maybe. Yeah, see Luigi: They heard the calling. Amelie: She is just too adorable. Lynn: yes, there We got our not zoom call but our Zoom call can't it happens. It's it happens. Luigi: our session. They want to participate. Amelie: It's okay. Lynn: But this was I Amelie: You Lynn: mean, this was just me talking about or mentioning the the art or the transformational process with the art card that we having in Sagittarius where we go fire where we're having the transmutational Amelie: found it. Lynn: awesome Yes, the transmutational Luigi: Yes. Lynn: fire But then also you're talking about the lion being tamed and then that obviously then brings up the strength card Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: or the li you know, more more so than the last card, but the strength card, which is representative for Leo, where we're having this lion being well, there's different interpretations, right? There's interpretations that the lion, the wild thing, the ultimate, untamable wild thing is being tamed by a woman. or well there's yeah, or there was other worms. She she's maybe she's just petting Luigi: Yeah, like. Lynn: him. No. Luigi: If you look at the maiden, because I think it might have been Waite that said that, but basically the maiden can count as, in the Smithdeck at least in particular, can count as a foreshadow of the following season being Virgo, Virgo being the maiden, the maiden of the zodiac. But ultimately, because of our Five of Wands conversation right now, and the decanic rulership of Saturn, the maiden can also be a symbol for Binah, or the symbol for the divine feminine, again coming into place. or coming into play at in the decanic forces of the Five of Wands, for example. So I don't know, because the term taming can have multiple interpretations. And I'm a bit of a libertine and bohemian myself. So when I hear the word, I'm like, I don't know how I feel about that. But I'd rather look at it as a learning process, you know, like because Leo is born with this natural charisma and self-confidence and courage and like like the element of fire, like clearly like the charm of the flame but the flame is also dangerous don't touch look but don't touch or learn how to touch it without getting burned like you know the fire the fire whispers and whatnot, but again Binah or the maiden or the divine feminine or Saturn coming over from above, from below, everywhere all at once and teaching and divulging or simply sharing new perspectives, new views, new secrets, new mysteries and all for it to lead to the 6 of 1s, the victory over strife, to the victory Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: over the current stage. Amelie: find like for me the difference between like the Lost card and the Five of Wands is that the Lost card is like it contains it but the Five of Wands it feels like it's just getting out, it's just getting worse and worse. It's the friction and there's no stopping, it's just letting it out. If anyone gets killed, who cares? I'm going to let it out. Bit like Luigi: Merciless. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Amelie: that. Bit merciless-ish, I guess, you know? It's kind of like last one standing, like you said, the victory. There can only be one person that wins, right? So you have to fight for your life like they say sometimes. Is that friction? I always like this, this is what this card for me, it's just a lot of friction. Lynn: Mm. Amelie: And you know, when you rub like two sticks together, you get the fire. So if you, this is, this is like the moment when you have to rub the sticks together to get to the fire. And then after that comes the, Lynn: Maybe get some splinters on the way. Amelie: yeah, exactly. But that doesn't matter. You just have to get to the fire. If you contain that, you're not supposed to contain it. It has to go wild. You have to go a little bit too far. Once you have the fire, you can start containing it, but before you actually get there, you need to just give it all. ruthless. Luigi: Absolutely. Amelie: I was reading about the lion because I said it was drunk, right? It just made me giggle because it actually says it's demented. Lynn: Ha wow. A demented lion. What does it say about both? Amelie: So one of them is fierce and the other one is demented, which indicates the strife. Lynn: Right, a fierce and a demented line. Yeah. Amelie: which, Ophiris and a demented lion. I thought that that's pretty funny and cool at the same time. Lynn: Hm. Yeah, let's cook Luigi: and crocodiles at the bottom. Lynn: it. Amelie: yeah, yeah. Lynn: That's I'm just well and then we have the snakes up here. So we have snakes lions, Luigi: serpent. Lynn: serpents, lions and crocals. Hmm. Do you have to be either fierce or demented in order to struggle and strife? I guess. You have to either have like the the the courage and well, the fierceness to go and ra or you just have to be stupid in order to throw yourself into something, right? Courageousness or stupidity In modern Luigi: Yeah Lynn: more modern words than than fear sentimented I guess being courageous or Luigi: The eternal paradox. Lynn: stupid. Hmm Hmm Jess a just a Amelie: It depends where you get your... I mean, I guess like if you're fierce, you know, you just go for it. But I think the demented one has equally as much chance to win because he's just like all loopy and demented Lynn: Yes. Luigi: Yeah Amelie: and crazy. He don't care. Lynn: No, that's right. we know that there's a strength in being being stupid or demented. Yes. There's a big strength in that. Amelie: Yeah, absolutely. I guess it's the not knowing or... I guess if you're too intelligent, you wouldn't go into a fight like this because you might die. So Lynn: Hm. Amelie: you wouldn't be able to have the fierceness of this line because you're just like, if you just... Lynn: Hm. Again, yeah. Amelie: Yeah. This is like even if the fierceness of the light doesn't mean that he's like super intelligent because if he was super intelligent he would probably have run away from the situation. But he's just so fierce Lynn: I mean yeah. Amelie: and so like cool and like above everything because obviously he's a lion, Leo. So Lynn: Mm, mm. Amelie: he just goes right in because he knows he's the best. Just knows he's the best. Lynn: Yeah. We have a s a similar thing that we can put on the strength card again because also like who goes and touches a line, you're either extremely fierce or you demented. Right? Amelie: Yeah, so the lion is fierce Luigi: Good find. Amelie: and she is demented basically. Lynn: Well, I wouldn't you know that them that paints the the image in a very different light and I very much like this lady. But I like this lady even more. Yes. Amelie: That's what I'm here for, to paint a different light. Lynn: I like this lady even more. shall we talk a little bit about the last card? Or we should probably talk about the Luigi: Scarlet Lynn: last card Luigi: woman. Lynn: a little more than a little bit. We Luigi: Yeah, yeah. Lynn: will we will also cover the majors though, so we can cover them more a bit more in detail. But this is like one of the cases where we're having very different energies between the Smith and the Thoth deck in the Majors. Although the images in themselves are not if you're putting them very far away then you have similar images but there's a lot more going on here. So this was one of the cards I think as far as I know why this deck got banned for a long time. Because I mean naked women Amelie: Mm-hmm. Lynn: and naked women riding beasts. So this was one of obvious I mean this is obviously very sexual sensual card visually. So we can't have that in the bookstores. We cannot sell this. The children cannot look upon this. bad, Luigi: Haha Lynn: bad bad, right? but it's such a sacred energy. So this is just me rolling off of it, right? Wait, show this again. Did you did you show us one? Amelie: I just yeah I found the golden dawn one which is quite interesting is it? Luigi: which as again has the red and green. Lynn: Yes, we have the green line and the red line. Interesting. And blue waters. Mm. Amelie: green lion, red lion, it's yeah. Luigi: I think unless, I mean my vision could be failing me, but it feels like the tail of the lion again it's serpent. Lynn: A snake. Yes, it looks like a serpent, so yes. Amelie: Yeah, it is a snake, yeah. Lynn: So we all agree on that we're having lions with serpent tails or lionesque creatures. So this creature, the beast, doesn't really look as much as a lion as the other. We're having faces of men and beasts here. And the Lady Babylon herself deity of the Lima. is riding the beast and steering the beast and she's just leaning back and let's say enjoying life. She's just the ultimate yes woman. And there's not so much, I shall tame you or ooh you know, wisdom or whatever. Like in this card it's very it's very still and there's like this kind of quiet sacredness to it. Pa passive is not the right word, but this is like very just like still, quiet, and this is just all like mid orgasm, I suppose. Luigi: You can sense the chaos from the image. Lynn: Chaos. Amelie: I said this to Joe as well, ages ago in the beginning. And it's just, it's completely like, I shouldn't, I shouldn't think like this, but honestly, it looks like she's like trying to squeeze a spot. Like it looks, Luigi: Hehehe Amelie: it looks like, it looks like, you know how you have these pictures of, of skin? layers of skin and it literally looks like there's a spot that she's trying to squeeze because then you have like all these serpents as well and it's just like Lynn: Ha ha ha. Amelie: I know I know you're not supposed to think about things like this when you're looking at tarot cards but this is like my brain goes there Lynn: Also, why not? Yeah. Luigi: an additional layer to the great mysteries of the last card. Amelie: And no, I'm very terrible at just making things be less beautiful. Luigi: Or is that a gift? Because that could be very much of a skill. Lynn: Mm. Mm. Amelie: I'm not sure about that. I'm definitely not a poet. Luigi: yet. Amelie: I find it like these squashed people in the background here as well. Luigi: Mm. Lynn: Hm. Amelie: They're like, I don't know. This card just gives me the hibijibis sometimes. Luigi: Really? Amelie: Sometimes, yeah, I don't know. It's very weird. Luigi: You would love that card! Amelie: Yeah, I think a lot of people would think that. I don't know. Like I said, I honestly feel like it just looks like the insides. like layers of your skin, like skin layers, but also it kind of looks like your intestines somehow. I just, Lynn: Mm, mm. Amelie: don't know why. I don't know why I feel like it just feels like your insides, which is weird. Lynn: Hmm. It's quite I mean yeah. It is it is a weird card if you look at it. It's very weird. I just find it very beautiful in the it's multiplicity the right word, but there's just so many things that are happening in it and symbolic wise and we should do this when we actually cover the last card, not when we're going into the five of wands. But anyway, Luigi: Yeah. Lynn: the Lady Babylon Yes. Luigi: think she's a great, we can go back to her when we explore the actual major, but she's a great representation of the whole principle of do what thou will shall be the whole of the law. Lynn: Yes. Luigi: I think she basically embodies that to too many extents. Lynn: Love is the law. Luigi: Love and the will. Amelie: Yes. Luigi: 93, 93 everyone for whoever is listening. Amelie: Yeah Lynn: And also so many snakes in this card, but no, yeah, let's go let's go away from it. Otherwise we'll spend like the next half hour with this last card. Luigi: will be charmed by her beauty forever and ever. Yeah, another thing that I wanted to point out, because I mentioned in preparation for our recording session, it? the one cabalistic essence of the five of ones. So we talked about like a length, I suppose, this whole... influence of Saturn over Leo. And I think what's interesting obviously we are in the fives, we are in Gevora, Saturn being the energy, the planetary energy that rules over Binah, so we have a very clear depiction in a way in the Five of Wands of the path between Binah and Gevora, so the path between understanding and strength, which obviously it's occupied by the chariot car, the knock. by the last card or the strength card. However, the esoteric name or title of the chariot is Child of, which I believe is Child of the Powers of the Waters. Lady, obviously Lords, but not for me, mates. Lady of the Triumph of Light. The Triumph of Light we can explore, but light, again, the Light of the Sun. But Child. And again, we talked about my personal view of Leo in terms of in the role of a child. But additionally, the fifth house, which is ruled by the energy or influenced by the energy of Leo, and it is the house of children. You know, it is the house of pleasures and fun and play and exploring and total freedom. So I think, again, there is an element of Education? You know how like children bless their hearts and their purity but you know like I remember when I was little when first of all my mom dropping me off in nursery traumatized you know what are you doing why are you leaving me here what are these people trying to tell me what why are they boring me with these notions that I don't care about and even further further on in education when you're like please when is it when is the day over so like an example of the discipline that Saturn requires in the realm by the number five. Number five is Gavurah, yes, but number five as the fifth house perhaps even. what happens when pleasure being one of the qualities of the fifth house meets discipline, meets teaching, aka the qualities of Saturn. again, I think that's very much depicted in the path, or one of the many things that one can learn in the path between Bina and Gevora. You like you learn to understand, you develop your strength in very basic terms because those are the titles of the Sephiroth ruling or influencing that path. And again, the chariot, even though it's not Leo, being an archetype and a major of strengthening your own will, you know, and acting your own will upon the forces of the universe and life itself. So yeah, I know that it's not a perfect theory and or principle, but when I play with it fluidly, freely, like the fifth house would demand, yeah, I have a good time with it. Amelie: I think it makes a lot of sense when you look at the Smith Deck. know that I have... do know... Luigi: Yeah, like five children. Amelie: Yeah, if you think that these people are children or teenagers, it's almost like, you know, when men reach their manhood and they kind of have to be rough and they have to, you know, learn to hunt and to defend the village and their woman and whatever you do when you're a back in the day. We need those men back but okay. But this is what it reminds me of and I know that I have a deck that does actually have children. I wonder if it's the... I don't remember how to pronounce it again. know Luigi you told me the Terra Volatile. Is that correct? Yeah. Luigi: Yeah. Amelie: I think that deck has two different fives and one of them is like kids. that makes a lot of sense when you say, Lynn: Should wow, yeah. Mm-hmm. Amelie: you know, children and learning, because this is a skill, this is like, you know, something Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: Mm, mm, mm. Amelie: that you kind of have to do. So it makes a lot of sense. Lynn: I was just going to say that the the different interpretations for the five of Wands in the Smith depiction is that it could be like people actually struggling, or it could also just be like this play fight. Like people are just having Luigi: Mmm. Lynn: fun, it's just like bah bah bah and and that's how you learn to fight this rather if you if you're ch a child in any species, right? if you're a human being or a cat or a dog or or horse even. Mostly predators, but ever, you know, you learn when you're a child you learn how to fight with their play fight with others and that yes, predators I suppose because you're being you're learning how to hunt and how to kill something when you get older. But it's also just like, you know, if you depict a bunch like a bunch of kittens, like five kittens just all being mouse. but yeah, play fighting for for the real thing. Amelie: baby lions, little cubs fighting so they can be the king lion when they grow up. Luigi: slowly. Lynn: Wow. The images in our heads. Yes. The Luigi: Just the image of it, I'm like, Lynn: images. Luigi: cute. Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: something that I just picked up on only because you guys were holding it like Lynn: It's signed. Luigi: that, if you hold the Smith 5 of 1s, you don't have to but just because you did, there's like, well thank you so much, but basically there's like an optical trick of the mind or the eyes that creates three sets of 5s, so there's the two 1s meeting like that, creating kind of a V, V being the Roman value of 5, then next to Lynn: Hm, right here. Luigi: it it's the other, yeah, and then the other next to it, the other way around, it goes up here, yeah, exactly, and then we have the, yes, yeah, so, Lynn: V here. Yes, here. V here. And we have a V here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Luigi: what happens, the reason why I'm pointing it out is because, so if you do 5 plus 5 plus 5, you get the number 15, which is a number of Saturn, but if what we, because we are the nerds and the geeks and the occultinarium voices that we are. If you go even further and take the number 5, which is the fifth major, you know, the Hierophant or the Sage, belonging to the Vav, being a value of 6, you will get 18, which would be two things. 18 can be reduced to 9, and 9 is another number of Saturn, one of the many numbers of Saturn. But 18 is also the value of the word life in Hebrew and that could connect to the beginning of the year, know, for the Kemetik, I hope I'm pronouncing it well, Kemetik as in the Egyptian tradition, you know, this would be the beginning of the astrological beginning of the year, the flooding of the Nile, like we mentioned at the beginning and in the previous episode. So that could be, you know, the flooding of the Nile had to do with agriculture and by extension to do with life, sustaining life. So I'm not going anywhere necessarily useful with this, but as you were holding the cards up, my ADHD brain and mind and heart just went there. I just went like, I wonder, I wonder whether. Lynn: I get it. I get it. I still wonder about the constellation. I mean, we can probably bring it back when we get to the Ten of Wands and the Ten of Swords, but just this realization that I had earlier that we're having the rulership of of Saturn and Sun and we're having the same combination in two further placements or two more placements and that being the Ten of Wands and the Ten of Swords. just the other way around. But it's it's like that struck me as interesting. And if we Luigi: Absolutely. Lynn: yeah, and I mean both the Ten of Swords and the Ten of Wands being tens, also the double number of the five, but also being like the last and often cards that are often more, you know, oppressive as in the Ten of Wands, or ruinous cards. that Luigi: You Lynn: you know, where the the the strife or the struggle that you're in in in those well decends is a lot more real and a lot more devastating maybe or yeah, I would say devastating or also actually triggering forth that transformation you were talking earlier. 'Cause like after the ten Luigi: Mm-hmm. Lynn: it's just the end and you start again, right? Well in the in the five you're still in the middle of like a whole development of something. Luigi: Yeah, yeah, totally. And as well... No, no, no, but Lynn: Yeah. This was not a finished thought, this just like something this is not yeah. Luigi: it really takes you places, because I'm trying to think as well with the Sun ruling the last icon of Gemini, like you said, and Saturn Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: ruling the last icon of Sagittarius. I think in Lynn: Mm-hmm. Luigi: astrology, and I don't know if it's... I don't know whether it's modern or traditional astrology, and I don't know whether or not it's law, but I think, you know, like, not in traditional astrology, not all the signs... have an exaltation for example, in traditional astrology that is, and I think the exaltation if you want to call it that of Gemini and Sogetarius is the dragon's head and the dragon's Lynn: Yes, Luigi: tail. So dragon's head for Lynn: that is correct. Luigi: Gemini and dragon's tail for Sagittarius. And another Lynn: That is correct, yes. Luigi: way that you can, again, please stay with us everyone, don't drown just yet, but another way that you can look at it is the head being the sun and the tail being Saturn, isn't it? AKA the planetary rulers of those individual decans Something to ponder on. Lynn: A lot to ponder on. I'm like woo Luigi: a lot, by the way. Remember how at the beginning we were also like, I don't know, what are we gonna say about the five of wands? We don't really work with this card a lot. And then here we are, 50 minutes later. Lynn: Yes, Dragon tails. Yeah, we just pfft yeah, we just went off. Amelie: I should be working with these cards a lot because when we were doing the life path thing ages ago I think when we were doing that in our tarot session Luigi: in our group, yeah. Amelie: in a group that's my life path is the five and then I understood why my life is so severe Luigi: Ha Lynn: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Amelie: so I should really be working with the fires but I try not to because they always daunting I think everyone has a Luigi: I mean recently, not to bring up terrible memories, but recently you've been working a lot with the five of cups, isn't it? Amelie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was for a whole month. That was fun. That Lynn: Mm. Mm-hmm. Amelie: was fun. I wonder what the next month will bring. Luigi: Hahaha Lynn: Exciting, exciting. Wow. Alright, well thank you guys for another tarot session. Luigi: Thank you. Lynn: it was enlightening. a lot of a lot of thoughts have been triggered on on my part. Well thanks for geeking out, Luigi. That was that was amazing. So so yeah, that that concludes this episode. We actually recorded on is it the twenty sixth of July and Deccan is from the 22nd of July until the 1st of August, which where we having Lamas slash Lunasa, which we also shall cover in an episode. So stay tuned or check it out. Like, subscribe, comment below, and see you in the next worm haul. Blessed be. Bye. Luigi: Bye! Bless you, B! Amelie: Bye.