Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep.299: Navigating Awkward Client Boundaries in Massage Therapy - Live Q&A with Josie DeLorme

Transcript

Ep.299: Navigating Awkward Client Boundaries in Massage Therapy - Live Q&A with Josie DeLorme · The STA Clinician Podcast

0:00
You're listening to the STA Clinician Podcast, connecting clinicians across healthcare.
0:19
299 of the STA Coalition Podcast, formerly known as the Sports Therapy Association Podcast.
0:25
I'm your host, Matt Phillips. And as always, this episode is being recorded
0:28
live on the Sports Therapy Association YouTube channel and Facebook page at
0:33
eight o'clock UK time on a Tuesday.
0:36
As you may have seen in the adverts, hopefully, this episode is going to be
0:40
a live Q&A entitled Navigating Awkward Client Boundaries in Massage Therapy,
0:46
with my special guest from last week, Josie DeLorn,
0:49
a registered massage therapist, RMT in Canada, a highly respected educator and
0:53
founder of RMT Sexual Support Society.
0:58
Right, we're not going to preamble tonight. I think we'll get straight into
1:00
it. So it gives me great pressure to bring back from last week, Josie DeLorn.
1:09
Josie, how are you doing? Hi, good. How are you? I'm fine.
1:14
Suddenly it feels like we're just continuing straight and the last seven days
1:17
have been a blur. We're back. Thank you so much for giving out your time again.
1:20
Really appreciate it. No problem.
1:22
Really cool. So before we look at the questions, which I'm really excited,
1:26
and thank you for everybody who sent questions in. And remember,
1:29
if you joined us live, you can keep those questions coming in.
1:32
I guess we should have a little recap on why we're doing this and who better to ask than yourself.
1:37
So we had a We chatted for an hour, flew by last week, kind of about boundaries
1:45
and like kind of sexualization of care.
1:48
And so sometimes those conversations, because we're talking about them a little
1:52
bit more broadly, can be a little difficult for therapists to kind of conceptualize
1:57
that to their like specific practice.
1:59
So we wanted to kind of set the stage for those broad themes and then come back
2:04
in a Q&A session where, you know,
2:07
therapists could ask their like specific questions they have in their practice
2:11
on how to navigate awkward client behaviors during during care. Yeah.
2:17
I think I'm still, we've had lots of feedback from not just last week,
2:21
but the week before with Bodie Haraldson as well, who shared his own personal
2:24
story of being falsely accused.
2:28
Of sexual misconduct, which was then thrown out of court, literally thrown out.
2:31
Then he had another two years of hell to go through.
2:33
And that, and last week with the experience you shared of your own personal
2:36
experience and other stories of people you've come across in your history as
2:40
well, we've had some great feedback.
2:42
But also the statistic which stood out of people's minds, which I think people
2:45
have been checking up, was come out of the recent reports, which we gave links
2:49
to last week about the, I think it was just over 80% of massage therapists reported
2:53
they'd been subjected to inappropriate sexual misconduct.
2:57
80% is still saying it just sounds like, what the hell have we been doing wrong
3:01
and why is it still going on?
3:03
Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's what we, the frontline clinicians have been
3:08
doing wrong, more like what about the structure of the profession is promoting a
3:15
culture where we're not a non-reporting culture essentially.
3:19
It was i think you shared on on the facebook page,
3:23
which we'll give links to i was always in the show notes there was i haven't
3:27
watched it yet i've just been looking at the social media just throwing it up
3:30
i think there was a report
3:31
from what the bbc described as a masseuse not a not a massage therapist it was
3:35
a masseuse which was number one yeah fuck up which i will swear not very
3:39
common but bbc you really did fuck up with that it's like one job stop calling
3:43
people masseuses if there's a massage therapist or sports therapist
3:47
a couple of just swam sorry mum if you're listening but anyway
3:50
it really was extremely bad but also what you shared it and also the thing which
3:55
i think i commented on was i opened it up obviously because it's part of everything
3:58
we do and we're interested in and it was not on your feed fortunately, but on other feeds,
4:03
and I don't know whether it's bots, but some of the comments...
4:07
I have to kind of convince myself oh these are bots from russia or something
4:10
or other countries i don't know and it's not real people but it scares me because
4:13
i think it is real people going how hard is it just to shut the door up and walk out
4:19
or if you don't like it get another job and stuff like that and just and it
4:22
really annoyed me but you must see the same thing and this has got to be part
4:27
of the problem we're so desensitized to another person's suffering it's horrific.
4:33
Yeah. I mean, I think the comment that like made me see red on that feed was
4:37
the one that said like, well, you're working with men who are like,
4:41
you know, semi-naked or unclothed. What do you expect?
4:45
There we go. Yeah. It's just terrific, isn't it?
4:48
And it's like, I'm sure that's part of the problem. And I don't know.
4:51
And then it just turns, it seems to make our job so much harder because we're
4:56
not just trying to look at how we advertise on a webpage.
4:59
It just seems to be a social construct of just how, well, it's just to do that.
5:03
With everything, isn't it? The whole kind of patriarchal society and roles that,
5:09
men and women are given. It just seems a massive mess. And for me,
5:12
it just makes me want to turn the light out and give up. How do you not do that?
5:17
I just, I got thick skin. I mean, we were talking before, you know,
5:22
we came on live about kind of the experiences that I've had and how like they've
5:26
kind of contributed to, you know, my ability to kind of just let things run off me like water.
5:32
Now that's kind of I think when we're talking about a subject that's like really,
5:39
you know tender and sensitive,
5:41
you know I think it's when people don't have empathy or compassion the first
5:47
thing they want to do is just diminish your experience of what's happening and
5:50
it's really disheartening to see that kind of,
5:53
you know online happening when someone's sharing like a very personal experience of harm and,
6:01
you know the the response is well just leave your just leave your job just you
6:06
know what do you expect you're working with like semi-unclothed men just leave
6:10
the room why is that difficult and
6:13
you know it just it speaks to people
6:14
not wanting to understand and just maintain the status quo yeah yeah.
6:21
But anyway, tonight we're not going to talk about the mess at social media and
6:24
polarised debate and just keyboard warriors.
6:27
We're going to try and support people who have given us the trust and honour
6:33
of looking at some of the experience they've had and questions they've got.
6:36
So we're going to work through them.
6:37
Just reminding people that there were some great resources which we did share
6:42
last week, which I'll just remind people here.
6:44
So obviously we had Bodie Haraldson, who I would recommend that you follow on social media
6:50
and defensive practice is the operation he's setting up to try and help therapists
6:56
not only or very similar to Josie not only react when it happens and how to
7:00
deal with it but just prevent it look at ways which you as a therapist
7:04
can actually reduce the chances of it and a lot of that,
7:07
falls down which we talked about on last week and the week before,
7:10
about recognizing how much you count and how it's about looking at how comfortable
7:15
you are as opposed to just what the industry,
7:18
practices is looking after the client and the patient and are they comfortable
7:22
and is their modesty covered and all this sort of stuff instead of thinking about you. So.
7:26
Follow Bodhi. Have a look at his story if you are not aware of it.
7:30
And it will just put some amazing context to this. And also it really helps
7:33
us understand, which is really important, that it's not just a female-male thing
7:38
of female therapists running into problems with men.
7:41
It doesn't matter what gender it happens to across the board.
7:45
It's a human issue, not defined by whether you're a man or woman or whatever. So yeah, amazing story.
7:51
And then also we had last week with Josie who again was an amazing story and
7:55
shared so much stuff and there was a couple of resources on there I just want
7:58
to remind people of there's a there's a YouTube video which I've I know I'm
8:01
not the only one who's watching now some other people said they made it through,
8:04
it is four hours so it's not really everyone's cup of tea but that's modern
8:07
sexual boundary management for RMTs the pilot the link will be in this week's
8:12
or this episode show notes as well,
8:14
but then also there is a shorter version which you did Josie for the registered
8:18
massage therapy association of ontario which is an hour and a half if i remember
8:22
which is a short version which we'll have a link to that as well but yeah two really important.
8:28
Sources of information for you from Josie DeLorme, which we recommend you have
8:32
a look at if you are interested or affected by this topic.
8:36
Talking of affected by, I guess we should give a little trigger warning again
8:38
for this episode. We are going to be talking about sexual assault.
8:42
And so if you are likely to be triggered by that conversation,
8:44
you might want to switch off now or listen to it at a time that suits you.
8:47
And of course, if you do listen and you are affected, then make sure you reach
8:51
out to either your professional association or if you don't belong and association
8:55
just make sure you reach out to someone appropriate who can help you don't just keep it yourself,
9:00
and for STA members you can either email or call Gary Benson all the details are on the STA website,
9:07
and the conversation doesn't stop here if this if you listen to the podcast
9:10
and you've got questions then obviously send something in or we will put details
9:14
where you can get into contact with Josie as well or even UKWIST the,
9:20
part of the STA which will be able to help you as well if you're a female therapist
9:25
working in sport therapy.
9:27
But anyway, so that's said and done.
9:30
Josie, do you want to say anything else before we start the questions?
9:34
No, I think I'm ready to dive in. Are you ready to dive in? Okay, we'll do that.
9:38
Everyone who's joined us live, just remember, if you've got any questions on
9:41
the questions or you want to put anything else in there, then do feel free to do that.
9:44
I will be looking at that and I'll be looking from time to time at Slido as well.
9:48
Yeah, so we'll have a look. Right, let's get on with the questions then.
9:51
Let's bring this up. I'm just going to go back to me and Josie.
9:55
And we'll bring up the first question. In no particular order,
9:57
I've taken these from Slido.
9:59
So I probably won't get through everyone's questions. So apologies in advance
10:02
for that, but we'll get through as many as we can.
10:05
Right, I'll read it out for people listening to the podcast as well.
10:08
If you listen to the podcast and you want to see it, then just go over to YouTube
10:10
and watch on there as well. Those questions will be on the screen.
10:13
Right then, question number one sent in very kindly says, if a patient reminds
10:18
you of someone else in the past who caused you trauma, how do you manage it
10:23
when they show up for the treatment or even during it?
10:26
And this was in reference to something you were talking about in last week's
10:29
episode so great question that was sent in,
10:32
yeah this is great i kind of touched on this last episode i think so whenever we have a,
10:39
like a reaction or a response to something unfolding in front of us i think
10:43
the first thing you kind of need to ask yourself is is my reaction right now,
10:49
keeping me from being present or objective with this with this client or patient.
10:55
If it isn't, and you still feel safe to continue working with them,
11:00
and it's kind of like an uncomfortable.
11:03
You know, like friction point that you can kind of shelve and reflect on later,
11:09
that's kind of one path you can take.
11:11
In the case, like I kind of talked about last episode, where someone came in
11:16
who looked almost identical to the person who attacked me.
11:19
And during the interview, I had to end things because I literally could not
11:24
hear them speaking to me because my ears were ringing so loud.
11:29
Because my system, I was going into that like fight or flight response, right?
11:34
So that's, again, if you're experiencing that flood response,
11:39
that's a really good indication that treating this person's literally not on
11:44
the table today. And then just excuse yourself.
11:47
Just let them know that you're experiencing like a, you know,
11:51
either like a strong reaction that's impeding your ability to treat them today
11:56
or that you feel sick. Some people will use that one, too.
11:59
Just excuse yourself out of the treatment room, let them know that it's over,
12:02
and then kind of follow up in an email with them.
12:06
And then if it's somewhere kind of in between that, you kind of just have to use your discretion.
12:11
I know a lot of us, we have the tendency to kind of just like suffer through
12:16
it and then kind of deal with it later.
12:19
And we have to keep in mind how if we're suffering through our own emotional
12:25
reactions or responses that are coming up during treatment, you know,
12:30
that doesn't serve our safety and it definitely doesn't serve the interest of
12:33
the person coming in to receive care.
12:36
So, yeah, again, just understanding that your emotional responses are a spectrum.
12:44
And as long as you're like, okay, this is weird. I'm going to just shelf this
12:49
for later and figure out kind of what I need to do with this emotional response that's coming up for me.
12:55
But I can still treat this person and continue on.
12:58
If it's not that, then it's probably a good idea just to end things and refer out of your practice.
13:05
That's really cool. I remember you saying that last week. I think that was a
13:07
really important point as well, because I think that empowers people who are in this situation.
13:12
What you said about you don't have to do something now. It's not like it's like,
13:17
do something now or it's all going to go absolutely wrong.
13:19
Sometimes you said, like you say, you can just think, right,
13:22
I've got to deal with that later on when this is finished and I'm going to do
13:25
something and react with it. But now I can just continue. So you've got that power.
13:30
You haven't got to do something now or then feel a failure so i think that was really useful,
13:34
and whichever you decide to do you also mentioned last week which was interesting that it might be
13:39
almost i mean it's still part of it where it could be somebody who's in who
13:42
maybe reminds you of somebody who in the past or somebody you're with at present
13:47
who you have or had a sexual attraction to and that might put you into a state
13:50
where you think okay i've got to do something about this.
13:53
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's our it's kind of juvenile or immature for our profession
14:01
to think that, like, we're we as therapists don't have a sexuality.
14:07
And that doesn't mean that it's OK to sexualize, you know, the people under
14:11
your hands. But we do need to honor how that might show up and how that might
14:16
impact our ability to, you know, provide someone care. Sure.
14:20
Yeah. If I had I was talking to a therapist who had attended one of my workshops,
14:26
workshops and, you know, she was telling me how, you know, this one patient
14:31
comes in and kind of like she's always flustered, always kind of running,
14:35
going over time, like way over time.
14:38
You know, like if he didn't, like if he showed up late, she would go make sure
14:43
that like she still accommodated the whole treatment time, even if it meant,
14:47
running in late with other patients.
14:50
There was just kind of a lot of like kind of boundary.
14:54
She's having a lot of difficulty like observing her, what was her feelings in the treatment space.
15:00
And as she was describing what was happening to me, I was like,
15:04
oh, you, you, there's attraction to this patient here. You know,
15:07
do they remind you of anyone that, you know, you might have had a relationship with?
15:11
And she she said, oh, yeah, like
15:14
they immediately reminded me of like a boyfriend I had in high school.
15:18
And I'm like, so, you know, maybe this is a good time to we've recognized that,
15:23
like, you're having difficulty, you know, maintaining your professional boundaries
15:28
with this patient or client.
15:30
Like, how do we move forward from here? Do we discharge or do?
15:35
Do you need to go back in? Is that relationship salvageable?
15:38
Do you need to go in and kind of have the conversation about,
15:41
oh, hey, like, you know, I've been noticing in our appointments together,
15:45
like, you know, I'm running over time.
15:48
I'm not upholding these boundaries with you. And, you know, that this is something
15:53
that moving forward that, you know, I'm going to get to get us back into those therapeutic waters.
15:58
We're going to be ending on time. I'm going to be, you know,
16:01
billing you for no show fees.
16:03
So, yeah, it's just kind of whichever one, whichever path you want to take.
16:07
And in the case of this therapist, she chose to just discharge this person kind of out of her practice.
16:15
And I know everyone loves the wording on that. So I did actually bring up the email.
16:22
So if this is you and you just have a difficult time discharging someone out
16:30
of your practice for reasons that are not of inappropriate behavior, but because.
16:36
Of your countertransference showing up,
16:38
some ways to phrase this might be, you know, to ensure you receive the most
16:42
effective care, I believe a therapist with a different approach would be a better
16:46
fit for the next phase of your musculoskeletal. journey.
16:51
Another way you might want to phrase that is, as a professional,
16:54
I have to recognize when a different therapeutic relationship would be more
16:58
beneficial to your growth or your goals or your musculoskeletal needs,
17:03
and then just refer on that way.
17:05
So again, not having to get into the details of what exactly the countertransference
17:10
is, but just framing it in a way where you recognize that the relationship would
17:16
be better served if you weren't in it, and then referring on.
17:20
Really cool. It is. So again, it's an interesting example of.
17:25
Being aware of how good your communication is the soft skills which apparently
17:29
aren't as important as the hard skills but it really is isn't it having the confidence and the,
17:33
just like you said the statements of what how to put it how to phrase it how
17:36
to comfortably send that send button no you're not digging yourself into deeper problems,
17:41
yeah very cool but to do something say something end it yeah,
17:45
great answer the question and the person who sent that in thank you very much
17:49
and yeah if you're listening to us live which people are which is fantastic
17:54
Normally, I see the numbers going down and coming up. We're just glued at the
17:57
moment. So that's fantastic.
17:58
You don't have to put a question in. But if you do want to leave a comment or
18:01
anything, then obviously you're joining us live. You're allowed to do that.
18:04
If I don't hear from you, I'm presuming you're just there, glued,
18:07
listening. And we'll move on through the questions.
18:09
Okay. Happy for question two? Yeah.
18:12
Okay. Question two is therefore, and I'll read it out for podcast listeners.
18:17
What do you do if the partner of your client or one of their family members
18:24
is being inappropriate or making you feel uncomfortable?
18:28
This is just a great question. I get this one all the time.
18:32
So there's a couple things you need to think about before you act.
18:39
If you're discharging this person out of your practice or not.
18:42
So we'll go maybe down the discharge route first, and then we'll kind of talk
18:47
about how to address their behaviors.
18:49
So if you choose to remain their therapist.
18:53
So if you're going down the route of discharging, one point of something to consider would be,
19:01
if their partner or family member chooses to stay on with you,
19:07
is that going to impact your ability to stay objective with that person?
19:12
If it's not, then, you know, you just send the discharge note to the,
19:17
you know, the family member or the spouse and just kind of leave it at that.
19:21
If you think it will impact your ability to provide care to the partner or family
19:27
member, then again, just kind of using one of those,
19:31
quotes that I just gave, you know, as a professional, I have to recognize when
19:36
a different therapeutic relationship will be more beneficial for your growth
19:40
and you can discharge that person out of your practice.
19:44
I'm not sure about confidentiality laws in England or the UK,
19:51
but here we have confidentiality bylaws to maintain.
19:58
So it's not appropriate to go into the details of like, well,
20:03
your partner is exhibiting these behaviors during my treatment. I had to discharge them.
20:08
Now it's weird treating you. So, you know, like you can't come here either because
20:13
there are confidentiality rules in place.
20:16
You have to treat those people as separate patients. So, again,
20:20
address the behaviors directly with the person who is being inappropriate by
20:25
just if you're going to discharge them. You just keep it between you two.
20:29
And then if you don't want to treat the family member or spouse,
20:32
it's just a discharge out of your practice. And it's because you think they
20:37
would benefit from a different therapeutic relationship with another therapist.
20:43
If you choose to keep on the person acting inappropriately, like their boundary
20:50
encroachments are causing friction, but they're not big enough for you to want to discharge.
20:55
I typically will just send them an email and outlining kind of how their behavior
21:01
is causing friction in the therapeutic relationship.
21:05
And that if they want to discuss it further, you can do so during your next appointment.
21:10
And then if not, if they would like to see another therapist to let you know,
21:14
and then you can provide them with options. So those are kind of the two,
21:18
or I guess, yeah, the few routes I'll take with a case like that.
21:24
Great advice. Thank you. Do you find on your workshops, do you find that for
21:27
some people it's useful...
21:30
I suppose each case needs to be treated individually, but are there some kind
21:34
of templates for dealing with certain situations which people find useful for
21:38
when they're having to send an email to a certain person or how to phrase it?
21:42
Or do you give them kind of find yourself giving them out or?
21:46
Yeah, all the time. I have. So on the RMT sexual support society,
21:51
there is a template discharge. There's a discharge letter template.
21:54
So it'll kind of take you through like the different, you know.
22:00
Like inappropriate behavioral kind of circumstances.
22:02
And then I think there's maybe six or seven different ways to phrase a discharge
22:08
that I've kind of just drafted based on my interaction with the with professionals for the last,
22:15
six years or so about the topic. So, yeah, there is a template there.
22:20
I always recommend that anytime you have to discharge someone,
22:24
just keep the letter as a template. Because again, when inappropriate behavior,
22:30
occurs in the therapeutic alliance, like it does destabilize you a bit.
22:34
And when you have templates you can pull from, it makes it easier for you instead
22:39
of a barrier of, you know, oh, I understand I'm dysregulated right now.
22:45
And I'm worried about having to write this discharge letter out because I don't
22:49
know if, you know, it's appropriate or I don't know if like I have the capacity to do it.
22:56
So having templates is really helpful in your discharging process.
23:03
Brilliant. Great advice. And I guess it's really important kind of paper trail
23:09
as well in case things do go wrong after you've sent this letter out,
23:13
because I guess there's plenty of examples of where things might have,
23:17
been interpreted badly or just triggered,
23:20
a continuation of the problems afterwards.
23:22
Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that. Again, people listening,
23:26
not to interrupt you, so just keep in mind, but if you have got any comments
23:29
you want to share on what Josie is saying, even just sharing your own experience, then feel free to.
23:34
We come on the show, we learn from you guys. We always say it as educators.
23:39
Every time you open your mouth, we're learning. So do please feel free to share anything you want to.
23:44
Right then, let's move on to question three. I will read it out once again for
23:48
people who listen to the podcast.
23:50
Question three sent in And it says, I froze during a boundary violation by a
23:55
client last week and didn't stop the session.
23:59
How do I forgive myself and report or ban them now?
24:03
Okay, that's pretty, whoever sent that in, this was anonymous, understandably.
24:08
Yeah, to you. Okay, so first of all, you did the best you could in a situation
24:17
you couldn't control or predict.
24:19
And I always, you know, anyone who's experienced this, please be kind to yourself.
24:24
You know, even in the surveys, we know our education is really lacking in this department.
24:30
And even if it wasn't, this isn't a normal part of a massage therapy appointment.
24:35
Like having to deal with inappropriate behaviors, although it's a common thing
24:42
to occur, it's not a normal part of our care.
24:46
So be kind to yourself you did the best you could in a situation you couldn't
24:51
predict or control second off.
24:56
Again, kind of I spoke to this spectrum of having that sympathetic response,
25:01
right? That fawn of freeze, flight, flop, flood, like there's seven of them.
25:09
And if you notice you're kind of in the beginning stages of like a freeze,
25:14
because that's really common from what I've heard from therapists anyway.
25:18
Hands off and maybe just give yourself an out to like go get water collect yourself,
25:25
get a sense for okay do i need to end things or am is this something i can shelve and work out later so,
25:33
always remove yourself from the situation if you notice that you're starting
25:37
to wade into some kind of sympathetic, nervous response.
25:41
And then what I would do in this question asker's case is, you know,
25:48
if you have this person's email, just send them an email outlining their inappropriate
25:53
behavior and then just discharge them from your practice.
25:57
I'm not really sure. Again, you might have to help me out here,
25:59
Matt, a little bit with the, if you have certain like bylaws or standards of
26:06
practice you have to uphold in these situations?
26:09
The thing is, in the UK, again, this is the problem. There's no standardization or regulation.
26:13
So there's not really a blueprint. There will be, yeah.
26:18
I mean, this is why all we can do at the moment is, if you belong to a professional
26:22
association, there will be some guidelines. And if you don't follow them,
26:25
then you will not be allowed to be a member of the professional association,
26:29
which may bring with it...
26:31
Lack of maybe you're in a good insurance payment or something or you get support in some way so,
26:36
but ultimately I think on another show we worked out that,
26:41
I can't remember the percentage was maybe 70% of sports therapists for example
26:45
that we know of in the in the UK aren't a member of a professional association
26:49
they're just going it solo yeah and they can do what they want wow yeah,
26:53
yeah it I mean if that's the case I would if.
26:57
I would just block this person from be able to book in with me.
27:00
And then I would still follow up and let them know, like, why they're not welcome back.
27:06
Because I think that sets a good paper trail for if you have to get law enforcement
27:11
involved, that you've let them know that they're not welcome in the space.
27:15
One of the things, I talked to a law enforcement officer last week,
27:20
which I'm going to be making a post about on the RMT Sexual Support Society
27:24
in the next couple weeks here.
27:26
But they said that, you know, one of the things that we need to do is actually
27:32
let this person know not to contact you again.
27:35
Let them know that they're not welcome in the space because if they continue
27:39
to show up or if they stalk you, then the law enforcement has grounds to act.
27:45
So I know it's awkward and it's an uncomfortable kind of part of practice, but,
27:51
letting people know that they're not welcome back because of their inappropriate
27:55
behavior it just it starts the paper trail so that if you later down the road
28:00
have to get law enforcement involved,
28:02
there is evidence that you've told them they're not welcome back in the space
28:07
or they're not welcome to communicate with you again.
28:11
Yes so important may even i don't know i've heard myself talking and it may
28:15
even be triply important in the uk where you haven't got such regulated kind
28:21
of ways to report this and have it kind of filed and everything.
28:26
But definitely the paperwork is going to be important, especially just thinking
28:28
if it gets flipped because it's easy for it to be reversed on its head.
28:34
Like it was with Bodhi. I mean, it's just very easy to do.
28:38
And he mentioned on his episode how valuable it was in his defense to be able to produce his notes.
28:45
Even the notes, this is what really struck a chord with me was even like a few
28:50
weeks leading up to the actual date of the accusation he'd put into his notes,
28:55
this client is acting a little bit differently.
28:57
There seems to be a little bit more flirting going on, some innuendos.
29:00
This is not normal behavior that he said was just all very valid to get the
29:04
accusation thrown out of court because he documented it so well in his notes.
29:09
Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. Thank you for the question. And I can only refer to
29:13
you as question three, which sounds a little bit, but yeah, make sure you've,
29:17
in a way I'm like, I'm so glad this person sent the question in because it means
29:21
they've told someone else rather than just keeping it inside.
29:23
But I guess the advice would be as well, just try and find someone else,
29:27
like you said last week, to mention it to.
29:30
And you said not necessarily a loved one or a family member,
29:32
because that wouldn't hold up in a call of law or something. Was that? Yes.
29:36
Oh, that was Bodie who said that. Yeah. Yes, that was Bodie, yeah.
29:39
So yeah, your colleagues, you know, I always, in the resource video,
29:45
I think I talked about the importance of mentors, even if you don't belong to,
29:49
I don't belong to a professional association, but I do belong to my.
29:54
Licensing authority here.
29:55
I do have mentors. I do have people that, you know, I can find in for,
30:00
you know, hard, you know, clinical decisions that I need to make and having someone who is not,
30:07
who's more objective because they don't have the bias of the therapeutic rapport
30:11
with someone is really, really helpful in kind of getting clarity on the situation.
30:17
And yeah, and then again, for defensibility, if you have a network of colleagues
30:23
that you are connecting with, you know, we see this in psychology, for example,
30:28
you know, that those are people who hold you accountable, who can kind of speak to your reputation.
30:33
And so, yeah, like, I know we're kind of a very isolated profession,
30:39
but those collegial networks and, you know, even if it's just an online support
30:44
group are really, really helpful for that.
30:48
I think we do have a live question, though. We do. We do. That kind of adds
30:52
on to this one. From Cecily from last week. So you know, it's going to be a grenade.
30:55
Just before I bring that up, I wanted to check as well, just for the sake of
30:58
one's own mental health as well, just sharing it as well, rather than just keeping
31:01
it on his side. It's got to be so important.
31:04
And once again, I just want to reiterate, because I've seen a few posts and
31:08
your comments about what you expect you with a guy with no clothes on. It goes both ways.
31:14
This is not just a man versus woman debate, which is a ridiculous assumption.
31:19
As Bodhi's not an isolated case, in his episode he talked about it.
31:23
And it's, yeah, it's across the board. So, yeah, talk to somebody.
31:28
Anyway, yes, the great Cecily's got a question here.
31:31
Cecily Hislop says, possibly a controversial thought, as it puts the emphasis
31:35
on the therapist and not the offender.
31:36
However, will there be a time where therapists need to carry rape alarms and or learn self-defense?
31:44
I carry personal alarm. Again, I work by myself. The practice environment I
31:49
work in is like I'm on a floor with I think like 31 room offices.
31:55
And most of us are massage therapists that are working independently.
31:59
So we're not working in a clinical space.
32:02
And so we know that if you hear an alarm, you have to come out of your like someone's in trouble.
32:09
And again, it's just you have to assess your risk of harm. And, you know, I work.
32:14
Weekends and Friday nights when reception has gone for the day.
32:18
And most professionals usually leave at around five or six o'clock and I'm there
32:22
till about eight o'clock or so.
32:26
So again, it's just having a personal alarm. Again, it makes me feel a little
32:31
bit more comfortable working by myself in those environments.
32:35
In terms of self-defense, that's a very individual choice.
32:42
I think for myself, fleeing and barricading is going to work better in my situation
32:49
than, you know, trying to get combative with someone.
32:54
I know from, at least in Canada anyway, from a legal standpoint,
32:59
that gets a little bit gray because, you know, with self-defense laws here,
33:05
you can only use enough power to get away,
33:08
and then it becomes assault and then things get complicated.
33:11
And I can't help but wonder, again, I'm not a law enforcement officer.
33:16
This isn't legal advice. But I can't help but think about you have someone who,
33:22
yes, is behaving in a very abhorrent way and inappropriate way,
33:25
who's unclothed, lying face down on a table.
33:29
And even though they've done something to, you know.
33:34
Spark you to act potentially, what the legality of that situation like was that
33:40
person actually the aggressor when they were technically in a more vulnerable
33:44
situation position physical position
33:47
so these are questions that i would like answers to but for me in my practice
33:53
it's the way it's set up this my space is set up is that i'm always closest
33:58
to the door so if someone is doing something you know that is,
34:02
impeding harm or is harmful, it's,
34:05
best for me to just leave the space and then barricade myself in the bathroom outside the door.
34:11
Great advice. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Cecily, for the question.
34:16
Yeah, I imagine an alarm is something, if you're working by yourself,
34:21
it's one of the first things to do, I guess, isn't it?
34:25
But it's so tricky. It depends very much if anyone's going to hear it.
34:27
People often, unless they're told to, don't react very well to alarms.
34:32
They don't come running out going, how can I help and be a great citizen?
34:34
If anything, they just kind of ignore it and go, oh, it'll just be a car alarm
34:37
or a cat. It's tricky, isn't it?
34:40
Apparently shouting fire is the best way showing fire far more efficient,
34:44
fire or have or pull the fire alarm in my office there's a fire alarm just inside
34:50
the door to every office so
34:53
we you can there's the option to pull that or we all have we all have an understanding
34:57
on the floor i work on or if you hear any ringing,
35:00
to like come investigate so.
35:04
Yeah. Okay. Great question. Thank you, Cecily. Let's continue.
35:08
Jessica, Jessica, Jessica Yannerman is here as well. I'm going to read this
35:12
out. Thanks for the question.
35:14
Jessica has said, bringing it up. I had, let's put this on big.
35:18
I had, I had particularly a nasty, I had one particularly nasty incident and
35:22
the only way I could turn a positive from it was creating an exit plan.
35:26
I work on my own in a gardening room. I've never had to use it, but it's good to have.
35:30
Yeah. So get your plans in place.
35:33
That's what I talk about in the workshop that I teach is have your,
35:37
you know, for a while I was part of the emergency response team here in Victoria.
35:43
So if you're not familiar with Victoria or Vancouver Island,
35:47
we are on a very big earthquake fault line here.
35:52
So they have emergency preparedness plans for the city to enact in case of a catastrophic event.
36:00
This is something that I feel we need to have in our practices is our emergency
36:04
preparedness, you know, action plans, because they'll kind of give you a pathway
36:10
to follow in those circumstances where things out of your control have occurred.
36:15
And it'll just provide you with some guidance during those moments.
36:18
So having an exit strategy is so, so important. And I'm really happy,
36:23
Jessica, to hear that you've thought of that and have it in place in case you need it.
36:27
Yeah, that's great. Good to hear. And again, this is what you were mentioning
36:30
last week is in training, you're doing your 25th way of assessing a shoulder.
36:37
But have you done training on have you got an exit plan in case something kicks
36:41
off in your studio? Probably not. You know, it's all the training's all back
36:44
to front, isn't it? It should be something that's talked about and done on training.
36:49
Yeah, great. Thanks, Jessica, for that.
36:52
Okay. Should we look at question four? Sure. So look, this has been covered
36:58
slightly, but we'll bring it up.
36:59
It's to do what we mentioned it slightly before with cancellation fee policy.
37:04
Let me just make it a little bigger. How can I improve, says this person who
37:06
sent in, how can I improve on sticking to my cancellation fee policy as I know
37:11
forgetting it can make some clients wrongly think they are special to me?
37:15
So you mentioned this kind of before, didn't you? But can you do it? Yeah.
37:18
Okay, this is a great question because it's, I get this one a lot,
37:23
when I teach because, yeah, when we kind of talked about last,
37:26
on the last episode, how your boundaries are kind of like a,
37:29
you know, if you think about them as like that light pyramid,
37:32
the light goes through, breaks off into the colors of the rainbow and it kind of goes back in.
37:37
You look at all your separate boundaries and how they create the one boundary.
37:42
So this would be kind of your administrative boundaries that you're having difficulty upholding.
37:47
And I know for a lot of massage therapists that I've talked to,
37:51
enforcing cancellation policies often is difficult for them.
37:56
So what I like people to do is, you know, examine what about that fee is hard.
38:04
Is it because I have a really hard time asking for the cost of the full treatment,
38:11
you know, of like $145 or however, whatever your rates are over there are.
38:17
And if that's the case, ask yourself, what amount would be comfortable for me to ask for?
38:23
Would it be half that cost? Would it be, you know, $35? Would it be the amount
38:30
my overhead would cost in this time?
38:32
And then make that the enforceable amount, if that's an easier amount for you
38:37
to uphold with everyone.
38:39
And in my practice, I have I was like that, too, you know, asking when someone
38:45
no shows or they forget and being like, well, that's a it's one hundred and
38:48
forty five dollar, you know, fee that you got to pay me before you can come back here.
38:52
Like it does cause that might cause friction in the therapeutic relationship. Right.
38:57
And so I think a really good way to kind of, again, get into the habit of upholding
39:03
your cancellation fee structure is by.
39:07
You know, picking an amount that is easy for you to uphold.
39:12
Another part of this question or,
39:16
aspect of this that's kind of a new way of structuring cancellation fees that
39:22
my colleague and I are looking at is actually adding a couple dollars into like,
39:29
your service fee that kind of is cancellation insurance.
39:34
So what we're looking at is, you know, what's the average amount of like of
39:39
no-shows or last-minute cancellations that you would get in a month?
39:44
And then if it's just one or two, you know, what it works out to is maybe like
39:48
two or three dollars more per everyone's appointment that you're billing.
39:53
And so if someone does no-shore, they do cancel, you don't have upholding,
39:58
you won't be charging a cancellation fee because it's built into the pricing
40:01
of the service fee so that's also
40:05
a way you can kind of examine that situation if you find just,
40:09
finances and admin kind of stuff is just not something that you're comfortable
40:13
with you know just building it into your service fee might also be a way you get around this,
40:19
that's a really cool idea and i think this goes back to your other point as
40:23
well of of having a mentor and somebody to guide you on this because i know
40:27
in in the neurodivergent therapist group i run on facebook.
40:32
I never like to tar neurodivergent people with one trait or brush,
40:36
but I know it's very common for people to shy away from charging money and valuing
40:41
themselves and imposter syndrome.
40:43
And I'm sure predominant neurotypes suffer the same thing, but it's extra common, I think.
40:49
And also, I mean, again, I have no studies to support this, but I think it might
40:53
be just a little bubble, but I think an awful lot of neurodivergent people are
40:56
drawn towards healthcare anyway, and massage therapy in particular.
41:00
I don't know. I don't want to say that they're all angels and they just want
41:03
to give, give, give to everybody, but I find a lot of people are.
41:06
So this makes things like this double problem because you don't want to ask
41:08
for the money. You don't value yourself. You don't like confrontation.
41:12
You're scared of what can happen.
41:13
So I think it's double important to have a mentor who can give you a different
41:18
cognitive way of looking at things and say, you are worth it.
41:21
Ask them for it. Send the email. You're not going to go to hell.
41:24
It's really important. So yeah, great question. Four, where are we?
41:30
46. Okay. I had to crack on.
41:32
Okay. Talking of confrontation. I've just seen the next one. Let's bring that up.
41:39
Question five for the podcast listener. Thank you for listening on the podcast.
41:44
I hope this is working for you. I'll read it out again for you.
41:46
Question 5. I do not like confrontation at all, so addressing inappropriate
41:50
behaviour when it happens is really difficult for me. What can I do?
41:55
Great question, because this is, I think, a lot of therapists struggle with this.
41:59
So kind of go back to that decision-making model I've been kind of consistently
42:03
touching on this whole episode is first you're going to ask yourself,
42:07
you know, am I safe to, do I feel safe to continue treating this person?
42:11
And if the answer is no, then you want to end things, leave the space.
42:17
If the answer is yes, but this felt icky and I don't, I'm not someone who can
42:21
just like improv, like, you know, what to say or you have difficulty with that.
42:27
What I suggest you do is like redirect them, you know, the conversation or whatever,
42:33
redirect them back into the treatment and start to create what I like to call like emotional space.
42:38
So you're going to disengage with them in kind of, you know,
42:42
casual conversation during the treatment.
42:45
And I want you to notice their behavior.
42:47
Because for a lot of clients or patients, when you start to disengage kind of
42:52
from that conversation, they'll notice and they're going to start to ask you
42:57
like normal questions about your, you know, what are you looking forward to on your weekend?
43:02
Or are you going on any vacation? or they're going to ask you these questions
43:04
to try to get you to re-engage with them again.
43:09
To kind of like diminish like that, you know, inappropriate behavior that that occurred.
43:14
So you're going to pay attention to that and you're just going to keep redirecting
43:17
them kind of back into the treatment, which we are all kind of really.
43:22
At least here anyway, that's part of the curriculum.
43:24
So what you're going to want to say is like, yeah, you know,
43:27
let's move away from this conversation and kind of let's focus back into,
43:31
you know, your reason for treatment today.
43:33
Why don't we just take a couple breaths together and then you can kind of focus
43:36
in what's happening in your body. So you're going to redirect them kind of back
43:40
into their body and then notice on how they're reacting to that.
43:46
And then after they've left, follow up in an email outlining their behavior,
43:52
why it was inappropriate. And then if you want to discharge them, you can.
43:56
Again, if the therapeutic relationship is like, you know, it wasn't enough for
44:02
you to discharge them, but it also impacted, you know, your relationship with that client.
44:07
What you can do is outline their behavior and then reestablish the boundary.
44:12
Like, these comments are not appropriate in my space. If we're going to work
44:16
together, you know, that will not be okay. And any further commentary like this
44:22
will result in you being discharged from my practice and see how they respond to that.
44:27
Most times, you'll never see that person again, unfortunately.
44:31
Other times, they'll follow up with like a very sincere apology.
44:35
And then you can kind of gauge from their response if it's sincere and then
44:41
you kind of continue on if that satisfies the boundary reestablishment.
44:45
If not, then you might want to consider either terminating and discharging that.
44:51
Client or again you can go through the steps of like re-establishing and observing
44:57
what they do i only give them one shot though,
45:00
because it like i'm not here to try to convince someone like how they've disrespected my like,
45:08
how they've disrespected my space and why that was disrespectful if they really
45:12
value you as a therapist then they'll understand and want to work with you,
45:17
to, you know, making amends so that they can continue receiving your amazing,
45:22
you know, massage therapy skills.
45:24
So I hope that kind of answered that question.
45:27
Yeah, as long, I always tell therapists, as long as you don't feel unsafe,
45:32
but it's just kind of that ick that we talked about last week.
45:36
If you're someone who's better to, you like to think on it and then respond
45:40
in an email, that's also very valid. That's a valid way of addressing it.
45:45
Yeah the i thought i was going to ask you and you you answered it ahead of me asking a bit,
45:51
when you do send these emails or say something and you follow the advice i was
45:55
going to ask you how many times does it actually work and they turn around and
45:58
go yeah i'm really sorry it was inappropriate i won't do it again and and you
46:02
crack on with it or are the chances are that clients are,
46:05
going to run out the door not come back and you've kind of answered it but yeah
46:10
it made me realize as well the conversation we had last week is you're better
46:13
off losing any clients like that than risking the escalation so yeah.
46:18
Yeah it works a little differently in in my practice because i have like a very,
46:24
unique practice focus so i find myself like,
46:31
because there's just not a lot of people that have the skill set uh that that
46:35
i offered to my community a lot of the times i am entering into like therapeutic
46:40
relationship repair processes with my patients,
46:44
because yeah it's you know getting pelvic and sexual health musculoskeletal
46:49
health care support here it's a very very narrow There's not a lot of health
46:54
care providers that offer that.
46:56
So, yeah, there's I always like to provide the opportunity because I understand
47:01
what that person is potentially losing out on if I discharge them.
47:06
So, yeah, if as long as I didn't feel like, you know, directly unsafe or I feel
47:11
like I can't show up objectively in our therapeutic alliance,
47:15
I always provide the opportunity to make amends.
47:18
And then, you know, some, I'd say in my practice, about 50-50,
47:22
sometimes I'll never hear from people again.
47:24
And then other times they'll express like really genuine remorse and we then,
47:31
crack on it all smooths over.
47:35
Thank you yeah i guess it's interesting you bring that up it depends on,
47:39
yeah what sort of treatments you're providing and i just think it's useful for
47:43
therapists to know what the likely outcome is going to be when you do take someone's
47:47
advice and do it according to the book and,
47:50
and not be surprised when they do kind of just disappear or don't come back or even it worries me,
47:56
particularly i don't want to turn this into a women man thing but particularly with men,
48:01
that they will take it so personally.
48:03
I'm generalizing here. Sorry, guys, but I don't like most of you.
48:06
But they will take it personally and even flip the table and then put something
48:11
on social media or just try. I don't know how many people will disappear into the shadows.
48:15
You may well get a knock-on effect of where they do try and,
48:19
clear their name somehow i don't know how much that happens when you experience
48:22
or do they tend to just disappear and you never see them again,
48:25
i think well i think in my situation like it's they just kind of back into the
48:33
shadows and i never hear from them again i don't often experience like any,
48:38
anyone especially with my male patients like they i have not experienced any like aggression,
48:45
with the work I do and I think it's just because like the.
48:50
The power dynamic that exists as being like a femme presenting therapist who's
48:56
working in like a sensitive area practice focus and then them being you know a
49:02
man in that situation and being the aggressor like it just it does not look good for them.
49:08
So I've had some lovely patients who are still on with me who we've had a hiccup
49:16
and they are genuinely sorry.
49:19
And then they smarten up and we've been able to work together for years.
49:24
But in the circumstances with the ones that don't think they've done anything
49:28
wrong or whatever narrative or story they've built in their head,
49:31
they tend to just, I just never see them again they just kind of that's good disappear into the void.
49:38
So maybe think a little bit who knows maybe you have a little bit of reflection
49:41
themselves right have you got time to squeeze one more in absolutely okay with
49:46
that i'm gonna check yeah okay we'll do one last one if we haven't got to these and apologies
49:51
i did have about nine planned we got to question six so,
49:54
but we'll make sure when we finish this one that we'll we'll give you contact
49:57
details of who to contact if you've got something that you'd like to share because
50:00
it is important you don't just let the question disappear now you've shared it,
50:04
you're anonymous so i can't follow it up but now you have shared it don't just
50:07
let it disappear and think oh it's fate no one's going to help me so we will
50:10
make sure we do something anyway let's go on to question six if that's okay with you.
50:17
Okay, so for people listening to the podcast, question six will be the last one for this episode.
50:22
It says, as a survivor of sexual assault, I sometimes dissociate or panic when
50:27
a client's hand accidentally touches me.
50:30
How can I safely stay present?
50:33
That's a great question. And,
50:37
before I provide an answer, I'm going to just firstly say this is a great question
50:42
for a counselor or a trauma therapist or a psychologist because they're going
50:47
to be able to work with everyone's nervous systems, everyone's,
50:50
you know, responses to trauma are different.
50:52
And having an individualized plan in a case like this is really important.
50:58
So I know therapy is expensive and the investment is well worth it.
51:04
If it helps, you know, maybe I can talk about my experiences with this because
51:11
I did have to go to trauma therapy for the sexual assault that I experienced in my practice.
51:16
So the first thing you want to do is the moment you've recognized that you are
51:22
dissociated or you're not present or, you know, you've frozen or something's
51:27
happened, that's a great time to.
51:29
You know, stop what's happening.
51:32
So for me, I'll go and just be like, oh, my throat's really dry.
51:36
I'm just going to go step out and grab some water.
51:38
Just take some deep breaths here and I'll come back in a minute.
51:42
So I'll leave the space because that disconnects what's happening.
51:46
That disconnects me from what's happening.
51:48
And then, you know, there's a strategy that my therapist gave me where,
51:52
you know, to ground yourself back into your body.
51:55
You're going to, like, find five things you can see, four things you can hear,
52:01
three things you can smell.
52:02
You know, was it one thing you can taste and then, you know,
52:06
two things you can touch or something along those lines.
52:10
And once you've done those things and you're kind of back in your body and your
52:15
systems come down a little bit, that's a good place to make a decision of,
52:19
can I continue treating here or do I need to stop?
52:23
Sometimes uh some people like myself i'm like okay like yeah i'm good to to
52:29
continue it just becomes a thing i'll shelf for later and then i can either
52:34
bring into my next therapy session or i can kind of
52:38
parse out if i need to discharge this person or if this is a generalized kind
52:43
of like flood response that i'm having and kind of walk myself back from it a little bit.
52:49
One thing I really like to tell therapists who've experienced any kind of like
52:54
trauma is to always keep like sour candies in the room with you.
53:00
That's what I use in cases where I find like I'm being, I'm noticing I'm starting
53:06
to get activated and I'm starting to escalate and I don't really know why.
53:11
Sour candies, I have like little Jolly Ranchers that I just like,
53:15
I'll just go grab quickly and Can I just let my patient know that,
53:18
oh, just my throat's really a
53:19
little bit dry. I'm just going to go grab a candy and I'll be right back.
53:22
Yeah, hard sucking candies are a really good way just to kind of keep you present.
53:26
And then, again, making a decision of do I feel safe to continue or do I need
53:31
to leave and seek support here?
53:35
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you again for sharing your experience.
53:38
And yeah, it's a really important caveat, isn't it?
53:40
That everyone's individual and, and yeah, as you said, whoever sent in this,
53:45
yeah, make sure that you talk to someone and looking at the possibilities of
53:50
therapy to get an individualized plan.
53:54
Yeah. Okay. It's nine o'clock. I feel so guilty finishing on that point.
54:00
I feel we should give it another hour. It's like, coffee anyone? Anyone want to can be?
54:06
Well, it just encapsulates really, thank you everybody who sent these questions
54:09
in and for sharing and putting the trust in us on the podcast to see them.
54:14
Even if you stayed anonymous, it's still a massive thing just to get it out
54:17
of your mouth and into someone else's ear, even if you're anonymous.
54:22
And if you are watching it back hopefully this is the start maybe of continued
54:26
communication or something but if anybody who's sent questions in and or somebody
54:31
let's imagine if somebody has sent in any of the other questions which haven't
54:34
got answered and they want answers then.
54:38
Like i said we've got the sta support if you're a sta member if you're not an
54:41
sta member look at your association that you are with because i mean if you pay money
54:46
monthly money to belong to the association this is something they should be
54:50
have in place and structure and help and support and advice and referring out.
54:54
Josie, you were kind enough to say, obviously, you can't change the whole world
54:58
yet. It's going to take some time. We'll help the whole world.
55:00
But yeah, you said people could reach out on the Facebook page?
55:03
Yes, you can Facebook me. Yeah, there's, I think there's a messaging option.
55:08
Just make sure you have your messenger settings on to like receiving messages
55:13
because some people have reached out and then I can't message them back because of their settings.
55:17
So yeah, just make sure if you message me that your settings are enabled so
55:21
that I can message you back okay that's very kind so that's the we'll put the
55:25
link in the show notes the rmt sexual support society,
55:28
yeah if you've really got no one else to turn to and even if you have then i
55:33
mean that's a great port of call you've obviously you've got,
55:36
some kind of relationship now with jose you've seen her you've heard you know
55:39
she's coming from all that sort of stuff and you know that i trust her so you've
55:42
got like a voucher confidence there as well so yeah maybe that would be the
55:46
arm out which can give you some support.
55:48
As always you can always if you're not sure then you can email me matt at the
55:53
sta.co.uk and i can try and put you in contact with somebody but yeah just just
55:57
don't keep it yourself don't yeah continue that conversation right,
56:02
thank you everyone who joined us live as well thank you to all the listeners
56:05
and for the questions you've put in there,
56:07
if you have like i say been affected by the content of this episode make sure
56:10
you reach out to somebody,
56:11
and if you found it useful or you want to help other people if you think other
56:15
people might have useful then just leave a rating and a review simple as that,
56:19
it just helps the algorithm throw this out when someone does put in sexual boundaries
56:24
and this will come up higher than a lot of the other stuff which might not be,
56:29
probably isn't as useful as,
56:32
what josie is going to help i tell you so yeah that would be a great way of
56:36
helping other people just subscribe leave a rating to youtube channel that sort of stuff.
56:40
Right then, Josie, thank you so much. So we mentioned the Facebook page.
56:44
It's such a, so many things to think about.
56:47
It's such a hard topic. I'm so thankful there's people like you in the world
56:50
and Bodhi who have been through horrible experiences. But like you say,
56:53
I've got that hard skin now to crack on and use that lift experience to help
56:57
other people. It's so, it's really is inspiring.
57:00
So thank you very much for doing that. It's no problem. Anytime.
57:05
And also just want to mention active on Instagram as well.
57:08
People want to follow you and the stuff you're putting out there then we'll
57:10
put it in the link we've listed the podcast then it's jocelyn j-o-c-e-l-y-n,
57:15
delorme which is d-e-l-o-r-m-e-r-m-t all one word,
57:19
okay we'll make sure that goes to
57:20
the show notes which you can find on any podcast app or on youtube as well,
57:25
right thanks everyone once again it's been an amazing three episodes i think
57:29
jessica summed it up in the comments here let me just read out a few before we go,
57:35
jessica says I've got to go, but thank you.
57:38
I found this group of episodes hugely beneficial, super important,
57:41
and really made me reflect on my practice. That's great.
57:45
If we hear that, then it's all fantastic.
57:49
So Glenn Murphy says, nice one, guys, which is great. Everyone's got different
57:53
ways of sharing their support.
57:56
Thanks, Glenn. Thank you, sir, Glenn. Thank you for your comments there.
57:59
And also, let me bring this up.
58:01
Susie Lee, 4 4 6 6 says, this is so helpful.
58:04
Thank you for sharing it's something i've struggled with as a lone female practitioner
58:08
who is also a sa survivor thanks to the sta for raising awareness and offering support,
58:13
okay well thank you susie for leaving that comment and for sharing that and
58:18
then the mighty cecily says and thank you too for this series of episodes it's
58:22
been so insightful helpful take care all,
58:25
Feeling a massive Wi-Fi group hug happening at this very moment.
58:31
Right. Thanks all. Thanks again, Josie. It has been amazing. Thanks listeners.
58:35
Thanks for joining us live. If you want to join us next week,
58:37
we are starting a couple of episodes which are to do with sepsis and stomas
58:41
and something which is another area which we try and,
58:45
raise awareness for on the podcast of things which as a massage therapist,
58:48
you probably never come across and go, ah, I don't know what to do with that.
58:51
Can't touch, don't want to do. So join us for the next couple of episodes for
58:54
those topics, either on YouTube or Facebook at 8 o'clock UK time.
58:59
Until then, as always, thanks, Josie. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
59:03
And thanks, everyone. Make sure before next week you take care of yourselves
59:07
and of each other. And we will see you again very soon. Bye-bye.
59:13
You're listening to the STA.