Latest / Inside Politics / Bill Shorten on Albanese's Trump triumph, and the opposition's next move

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Bill Shorten on Albanese's Trump triumph, and the opposition's next move · Inside Politics

0:00
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, October 24th.
0:09
S1: This week in federal politics could not have been more fun.
0:13
S1: We had Prime Minister Anthony Albanese travel to Washington finally
0:16
S1: for his meeting with the big dog that is US
0:19
S1: President Donald Trump. The meeting was a total hit, and
0:22
S1: Albanese came home with a deal on critical mineral supply
0:26
S1: and reassurances on the Aukus submarine pact for some bonus entertainment.
0:30
S1: We saw the president publicly scold Kevin Rudd. Kevin from Queensland,
0:35
S1: former PM and now Australian Ambassador to the US, here
0:39
S1: to help us process this momentous week. We have our
0:42
S1: chief political correspondent Paul chuckle as usual and we have
0:45
S1: a very special new guest. We have a guy named
0:48
S1: Bill shorten, who of course is the former opposition leader
0:51
S1: and a cabinet minister, a man who's made a huge
0:54
S1: contribution to political and public life in this country and
0:57
S1: who is now the vice chancellor at the University of Canberra.
1:00
S1: Bill shorten, welcome to Inside Politics.
1:03
S2: Thank you for having me on. Morning, Jack.
1:07
S1: Bill, you're running a university now. We just want to
1:10
S1: ask you about the transition from politics. And there must
1:13
S1: be a part of you, a little tiny, tiny part
1:15
S1: of you that looks at the events of the week
1:17
S1: with Anthony Albanese in the white House and thinks that
1:21
S1: could have been me, because you were very much a contender.
1:24
S2: Ah, I'd have to say that part of me you
1:27
S2: would need a microscope to find. Really. I find it
1:29
S2: incredibly interesting. And obviously I want Australia to do as
1:34
S2: well as we can. So the biggest emotion I had
1:38
S2: watching the week was one of relief. I think it
1:40
S2: went as well as any foreign leader's visits gone with
1:45
S2: The Donald. So yeah, I was just relieved for Anthony.
1:49
S2: I was relieved for the government and even more importantly,
1:52
S2: I was relieved for Australia.
1:53
S3: It felt a little bit absurd just having to sign
1:55
S3: you into the Parliament as a guest. And the security
1:59
S3: people looked at you and thought, how is this bloke
2:01
S3: a guest? How does it feel being back in here?
2:04
S3: And are you like some of the other politicians who
2:06
S3: the weaning off politics is like getting rid of a
2:08
S3: drug addiction.
2:08
S2: Are listen again to. You know, I must be more
2:13
S2: in touch with my emotional side since I've come on
2:14
S2: this podcast in the last 38 seconds. But what was
2:17
S2: really nice is that the lady attendant said, oh, Mr. Shorten,
2:21
S2: we need to see your ID but for me, I'm
2:24
S2: a glass half full guy. So I thought, oh, she
2:26
S2: still remembers my name. No. And the security guards are lovely. So, um. Yeah.
2:32
S2: But I'm glad to see that, you know, they've got
2:35
S2: a system for me, and. Yeah, it's it's fine. I
2:38
S2: must get around to getting a pass, but I think
2:40
S2: the the the question underlying it, Paul, you're asking me
2:44
S2: is am I missing the joint? Uh, no. I think
2:47
S2: what happens is really important. But I've now got this
2:50
S2: fabulous new job leading the University of Canberra. Uh, and
2:53
S2: I can still impact the national interests by helping ensure
2:57
S2: that people get good education. We do good research. So
3:01
S2: I now live in Canberra. Uh, having flown here as
3:04
S2: a sort of parliamentary mining town, fly in, fly out
3:08
S2: for 17.5 years. I now live here. I'm not sure
3:11
S2: my family's totally happy about that, but I've come around
3:14
S2: to the getting used to Canberra. No, but I like
3:16
S2: my new job. And, um, I'm pleased to see that
3:20
S2: the mesmerising roller coaster which is President Trump in the administration,
3:26
S2: I'm pleased to see that, um, Anthony dance between the
3:30
S2: raindrops and seemed to get some good outcomes for Australia
3:32
S2: and the way through.
3:33
S1: Yeah. So let's get into that, because whatever politics you
3:36
S1: might still have, we're happy to help you scratch, if
3:39
S1: that doesn't sound too.
3:40
S2: I'm still interested.
3:40
S1: Yes, we want to get into Albo in Washington. It
3:43
S1: was obviously the story of the week. It was pretty
3:45
S1: much the story. I watched the whole press conference again
3:47
S1: last night, and I was just so intrigued by the
3:50
S1: body language and the theatrics of it, and the way
3:52
S1: that Donald Trump sort of imposes his control over the
3:54
S1: whole show by putting down journalists, notably our own Michael Koziol.
4:00
S4: Where do you come from? What? Who are you with?
4:03
S5: Sydney morning Herald.
4:04
S4: Nasty guy. Go ahead.
4:06
S5: Sorry.
4:07
S4: All right. Go ahead.
4:08
S5: On your tummy.
4:10
S1: Anthony Albanese's to me seemed quite nervous at the beginning.
4:13
S1: He was fiddling with his pen. He was fidgeting his
4:15
S1: hands like that was a real tell. What do you think? You've.
4:19
S1: You've met, you know, world leaders. You've been in high
4:21
S1: stakes negotiations. You've been in these kinds of rooms, if
4:25
S1: not the white House itself. What would Anthony Albanese have
4:28
S1: been feeling going into that meeting?
4:31
S2: He would have been hyper prepared. Uh, I think the government,
4:37
S2: I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the government would
4:39
S2: have war gamed, uh, this meeting within an inch of
4:43
S2: its life, as they should. But what I really thought
4:45
S2: was good is the rare Earths deal was clever at
4:50
S2: the end of the day. Whatever else people think about
4:52
S2: the government in America, they know they need rare minerals,
4:56
S2: rare earths. And we came with a deal which was
4:59
S2: in their sweet spot. So I think it was a
5:03
S2: smart deal. It was a smart arrangement.
5:05
S4: You know, the man on my right has a big advantage.
5:07
S4: You know that, right? But I think he's doing a
5:10
S4: really I think he's doing a really good job. And
5:12
S4: we've had a very good relationship. I don't want to
5:14
S4: compare one.
5:15
S2: It was interesting. I don't know how they do the
5:17
S2: protocols of do you sit down in an armchair opposite
5:20
S2: The Donald, or do you sit at the big table?
5:22
S2: I thought the big table was much more professional looking. Yeah. Anyway.
5:26
S2: And obviously.
5:26
S3: Couches.
5:27
S2: Even though Kevin got some free character advice from the
5:29
S2: Donald on the way through, I think Kevin must have
5:31
S2: done some good behind the scenes work. I thought that
5:34
S2: was Australian diplomacy at its most professional. And so yeah,
5:38
S2: I'm sure Anthony knew that for all a sort of
5:42
S2: laid back nature. We'll see him when we see him.
5:44
S2: That was an important meeting. And if you weren't, I
5:48
S2: don't claim to understand if he was nervous or not,
5:50
S2: but if you weren't feeling nervous, you wouldn't be human. Yeah. Because,
5:54
S2: you know, President Trump, you know, sort of probably has
5:59
S2: more changeability than Melbourne weather.
6:01
S1: Yeah, I thought I thought he seemed nervous only because
6:03
S1: of the hands, but then he mastered those nerves very,
6:06
S1: very masterfully. Paul.
6:08
S3: Body language expert. Jack.
6:09
S1: Yeah, I was I think the theatrics of it are
6:11
S1: really interesting. And maybe it's the novelist in me, but
6:14
S1: I'm just looking at the sort of interpersonal stuff as
6:16
S1: well as the political. But so, Paul, the overwhelming consensus
6:19
S1: was the meeting was obviously a roaring success. We got
6:22
S1: the critical minerals deal. I mean, you cannot pick fault
6:24
S1: with that. It's like this beautiful confluence of timing opportunity.
6:27
S1: But what about the Aukus stuff? Let's talk about Aukus
6:30
S1: because that was a significant matter as well. We got
6:33
S1: a lot of reassurances. Michael Koziol, our own reporter, asked
6:36
S1: Trump about it, and Trump gave all these reassurances. Paul,
6:40
S1: I'll go to you first. I mean, how much can
6:42
S1: we count on those reassurances? On on aukus. Like what?
6:45
S1: When you drill down, did we actually get anything on
6:48
S1: Aukus from Trump?
6:49
S3: Yeah. Well, I think having him make a declarative comment
6:52
S3: as he did was critical, even if there might have
6:55
S3: been a bit of bluster in it, even though he
6:57
S3: might have overruled his Navy chief sitting across the desk,
7:00
S3: who said that there were still some tweaks with orcas
7:02
S3: that needed to be looked at. Having Trump speak positively
7:05
S3: about the deal, which has been up for review for
7:07
S3: months now, was absolutely crucial because no matter what, Elbridge Colby,
7:12
S3: the defense undersecretary in the Pentagon, thinks about the ability
7:16
S3: for the US to give up subs in six years,
7:19
S3: which had not been produced at a high enough quantity.
7:21
S3: When you've got presidential authority, you put your seal on it.
7:25
S3: So that was crucial for Australia. There are still obviously
7:27
S3: big questions about how orcas lands in 5 or 6
7:30
S3: years time. It's soaking up a lot of our defense budget.
7:34
S3: There are still huge questions about whether the US will
7:37
S3: give up subs in the end. And Bill, I thought
7:40
S3: I'd just move to where we wanted to go next,
7:42
S3: which was with these questions still looming over orcas and
7:45
S3: how a future president might deal with Australia and whether
7:48
S3: they'll be willing to hand these over. Do you think
7:51
S3: there is still scope for an Australian government to do
7:54
S3: more examination of the orcas deal? Would you have signed
7:57
S3: up to orcas as quickly as this labor government did,
8:00
S3: almost without review.
8:03
S2: Um, well, I think the first part was the importance
8:07
S2: of President Trump endorsing orcas. I mean, the MAGA movement
8:13
S2: which sustains Donald Trump's electoral success, the Make America Great
8:18
S2: Again has a very strong isolationist tendency that they don't
8:23
S2: want to get involved in the rest of the world's problems.
8:25
S2: Leave them alone. And sometimes that aspect of President Trump's
8:30
S2: policies emerges. But what I thought we saw on display
8:34
S2: was the, I think for Australia, the more reassuring internationalist,
8:40
S2: more classical republican play that they've got a role in
8:44
S2: the world and without, you know, overhyping the China America
8:48
S2: rivalry the Americans were giving at their most senior level, uh,
8:54
S2: reassurance that Aukus is part of this MAGA administration. So
9:00
S2: I think that was not to be underestimated. In terms
9:04
S2: of your point about the scrutiny of the deal, like
9:08
S2: this deal is going to be scrutinized for the next
9:10
S2: 20 years, like it's the auditing of this orcas scheme
9:14
S2: and value is going to spawn university degrees and industries
9:19
S2: of auditors.
9:20
S3: But the government hasn't examined it.
9:22
S2: I think you'll find the government does examine a lot
9:25
S2: of its expenditure. Um, and the Americans have an expression
9:30
S2: about momentum in politics, and they call it the big Mo.
9:34
S2: And I think the orcas got some big Mo again
9:37
S2: this week. And, you know, and the atmospherics of there's
9:43
S2: no bigger circus or show on earth at the moment
9:47
S2: than the Trump White House. It doesn't mean it's the
9:49
S2: only thing happening in the world. It's obviously not. But, uh,
9:53
S2: that was Australia's sort of 15 minutes in the big circus,
9:56
S2: and we got out with our skin intact and a
10:00
S2: deal done. So I yeah, I think this week was
10:04
S2: quite remarkable.
10:05
S1: I note as well, I looked at the New York
10:07
S1: Times website this morning and the, the, the main story
10:10
S1: on the New York Times website is about America's sort
10:13
S1: of deals on critical minerals. And you click through and
10:15
S1: there's a big old photo of Anthony Albanese. So, I mean,
10:18
S1: it's not often that that we would make international news
10:20
S1: in that way or that an Australian prime minister would.
10:23
S1: I want to ask you both about this other comment
10:25
S1: that Trump made, though, kind of related to Aukus, where
10:27
S1: he was asked about China and the threat of China
10:29
S1: and whether or not China has any interest in invading Taiwan.
10:33
S1: And he said, oh, I don't think we're going to
10:34
S1: need it. When speaking about the Aukus pact, because he
10:37
S1: doesn't think that President XI is going to make any
10:40
S1: moves on Taiwan. And I thought that was an extraordinary
10:43
S1: thing for an American president to say in the context
10:45
S1: of having betted down this pact and, you know, made
10:48
S1: sort of positive noises about this pact and then say, oh,
10:50
S1: I don't think we're going to need it anyway. Paul,
10:52
S1: why would he say that? Was it just bluster or
10:54
S1: what's going on there.
10:56
S3: Yeah, I think he he said two things on orcas
10:59
S3: in terms of its relation to China. He did say
11:01
S3: explicitly that it was a deterrent and that that was
11:03
S3: a key element of the orcas deal was to deter China.
11:07
S3: But in the same breath, he made this comment that,
11:09
S3: as you say, I don't think we're going to need
11:11
S3: it because he has a benign view of President Xi's
11:14
S3: intentions in relation to Taiwan. I think probably what you're
11:18
S3: seeing there, it's a bit hard to read Trump. I
11:19
S3: don't claim to have all the answers, but he's made
11:21
S3: a bunch of different comments over his administration and in
11:24
S3: his first term about his ability to through his unpredictability,
11:28
S3: his kind of mercurial nature, and his threats to use
11:31
S3: hard US power, his ability to keep people like XI,
11:35
S3: like Putin, like actors in the Middle East, like Kim
11:39
S3: Jong UN from North Korea, to keep them calm and
11:42
S3: and through his kind of force of nature, stop them
11:45
S3: from taking drastic action that might hurt us interests. I mean,
11:48
S3: I don't think he was reflecting the strategic reality of
11:51
S3: the relationship with China. The balance of power is much
11:54
S3: more contested than he suggested. He said the US has
11:57
S3: much more military might than China. In the Indo-Pacific. That's
12:00
S3: just not right. According to analysts and his own chief advisers,
12:04
S3: Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio and the chief of the Navy,
12:07
S3: who were sitting on the same table as him, have
12:09
S3: all said in recent months that China's threat in the
12:12
S3: Indo-Pacific in relation to Taiwan is potentially imminent and a
12:16
S3: crucial topic for concern of US strategy. So I think
12:19
S3: there's Trump trying to keep the relationship with China from
12:23
S3: not boiling over, particularly as he's about to meet XI,
12:26
S3: as this trade war is becoming more real over critical minerals.
12:30
S3: I think that was more politics and bluster than reflecting
12:34
S3: US strategy.
12:35
S1: Bill, what did you make of that comment?
12:37
S2: I think, um, Western strategists almost have a twin track
12:43
S2: strategy about China and Taiwan. On one hand, it's certainly
12:49
S2: the case that the defense establishment and our security agencies
12:54
S2: are very conscious of Chinese espionage and their military expansion.
13:00
S2: But on the other hand, we recognize that you never
13:03
S2: want to put someone in a corner where they feel
13:05
S2: there's only one option. Yeah. So I don't know if
13:07
S2: there was any conscious strategy in what President Trump said
13:11
S2: by sort of not always using bellicose language about China.
13:15
S2: I mean, I recently had the opportunity to go to
13:17
S2: Taiwan to visit with Taiwanese universities. And I was curious,
13:22
S2: what is the sort of person in the street in Taiwan?
13:25
S2: Think about China. And I can't pretend after five days
13:28
S2: I worked that all out. But I think Taiwanese people
13:33
S2: know they've got a neighbor who's very different to them.
13:36
S2: But they weren't perhaps as obsessed about imminent Chinese conflict
13:42
S2: as some of our Western agencies. But whether or not
13:45
S2: that's because people have learned to sort of live with
13:48
S2: their neighbor without necessarily fully trusting their neighbor, that could
13:52
S2: be it. But I thought, I'm quite happy when I
13:56
S2: hear world leaders not talk in a bellicose fashion. So,
13:59
S2: you know, again, take your wins. And I think though,
14:03
S2: the security establishments are still very mindful of China. And
14:08
S2: I think one of the big challenges for Western leaders
14:11
S2: is that a lot of Western leaders and politicians operate
14:15
S2: on personal relationships and negotiations, whereas I think some of
14:20
S2: the more autocratic countries, it's not just about personal relationships.
14:23
S2: And I think sometimes Western liberal democracies struggle with the
14:28
S2: notion that you might have people or nations who just
14:31
S2: don't care about the rule of law. I'm not putting
14:33
S2: China fully in that category. But take, for instance, Russia.
14:37
S2: You could have a personal relationship with Putin, but I'm
14:39
S2: not sure that changes any facts on the ground about
14:42
S2: Russian expansionism.
14:44
S3: Do you think the PM struck up a did it
14:46
S3: look like a real rapport with Trump? Do you think
14:48
S3: Trump would call the PM if he's wondering about China strategy.
14:51
S2: Even accepting my rubric that perhaps we sometimes deal with
14:55
S2: dictatorships and authoritarian countries for whom personal relationships aren't the
15:00
S2: sort of meat and potatoes of politics. I think with Trump,
15:04
S2: personal relationships is important. I also think that Trump has
15:10
S2: a worldview and, you know, whether or not you agree
15:12
S2: with it or not, he seems to like winners. Anthony's
15:16
S2: victory in May of this year was pretty decisive.
15:19
S1: And he mentioned that. I mean, he really mentioned that
15:21
S1: he's aware of that. Um, yeah, Trump mentioned that. I mean.
15:26
S2: Whether or not you think that's the right logic to have.
15:28
S2: I mean, also, apparently Trump likes people who are physically pleasing,
15:33
S2: you know, and, uh.
15:33
S3: His elbow physically.
15:34
S2: Pleasing, you know.
15:35
S1: Well, I don't think we can accuse our prime minister
15:38
S1: of that, but let's not make personal comments about people's looks.
15:42
S2: No, no, no, I was talking about Trump. But mind you,
15:44
S2: talking about personal comments, one of the sort of sideshows
15:48
S2: of the whole visit was the media's sort of love
15:51
S2: hate with The Donald.
15:53
S1: You know, I know.
15:54
S2: As much as I'm sure journalists hate being told off
15:56
S2: by them. I feel that they must sort of swagger
15:59
S2: back into their media rooms in Australia and say, hey, yeah,
16:02
S2: he insulted me. So. Oh yeah, it's a sort of
16:05
S2: a sort of bondage relationship.
16:07
S1: It's like a badge of honour, I reckon. Now it's
16:08
S1: all good for business if you're a journalist.
16:11
S2: Yeah, it's a bit like it's right up there with
16:13
S2: being blacklisted by the Russians.
16:15
S1: Yeah, yeah. So it's all good for business.
16:17
S3: I wanted to ask you about something. Sean Carney, our columnist,
16:19
S3: wrote today. He talked about the elements of luck and
16:22
S3: circumstance that have led to the Prime Minister being in
16:25
S3: the position he's in. He's often been quite critical of
16:27
S3: the Prime Minister, I should say. He mentioned that the
16:29
S3: PM was in the UK talking about our lack of
16:32
S3: illegal immigration being a key reason we don't have a
16:34
S3: populist right movement. The Prime Minister obviously fought very hard
16:37
S3: against that policy in 2015. When you shifted Labour policy
16:41
S3: on that question in response to the turn back policy,
16:44
S3: you've also, as a leader of the Labour right, fought
16:46
S3: against Albaneses left faction since you were at university in
16:50
S3: terms of how the Labor Party should relate to the
16:53
S3: US and how strongly it should support the US Alliance,
16:56
S3: someone who's known him for a long time. The Prime
16:58
S3: Minister said to me last week that he's growing in
17:00
S3: the role because he's turning into someone who puts stewardship
17:04
S3: of the country and nurturing of our institutions ahead of
17:07
S3: his personal ideology. Do you see him growing into the
17:10
S3: role in that way?
17:12
S2: You watch people get elected and some shrink and some grow.
17:16
S2: And I think Anthony's clearly in the he's doing better.
17:20
S2: Each experience builds his confidence. And also just you learn
17:25
S2: valuable lessons. You can't really understand leadership until you've been there. And, um,
17:33
S2: whilst I haven't been prime minister, I know what it's
17:35
S2: like to lead the party. And you just see he
17:39
S2: backs his own judgement a fair bit. And I think
17:42
S2: that's what a leader actually has to do. When you're
17:44
S2: a leader of a mainstream political party in this country,
17:47
S2: you get a lot of advice. You get a lot
17:49
S2: of people saying, don't do this, don't do that. And
17:51
S2: sometimes that advice can be crippling. You wouldn't get out
17:54
S2: of bed in the morning. You'd pull the doona over
17:55
S2: because everyone says, do this, do that. And what I
17:58
S2: see is, uh, Anthony certainly backing his judgment. And so
18:02
S2: I think he is stepping up in the job. And
18:05
S2: I think there'd be conservatives who would say that, too. Yeah.
18:08
S2: Having said that, you went back to that earlier point. Yeah.
18:11
S2: There's no question that I've always supported the American Alliance.
18:16
S2: And indeed I supported boat turn backs. And not everyone
18:19
S2: in the party has. But hey, he mightn't have the job,
18:23
S2: but it would seem that some of the positions I
18:25
S2: took ten years ago seem to be the right call. So,
18:28
S2: you know, that's.
18:28
S1: And hopefully on a future podcast, we're going to get
18:31
S1: you back and talk about some of the sort of
18:33
S1: more controversial economic policies you took to the 2019 election
18:36
S1: and whether or not you're right on those, and you'll
18:38
S1: be proven right one day. But that's, that's a, that's a,
18:41
S1: that's a conversation for another time. We need to talk
18:43
S1: about Kevin because speaking of Anthony Albanese backing in his
18:46
S1: own judgment, Kevin obviously got a dressing down very publicly.
18:50
S4: Where is he? Is he still working for you?
18:52
S6: Yeah, yeah.
18:55
S4: You said bad.
18:57
S6: Before I took this position, Mr. President.
18:59
S4: I don't like you either. I don't, and I probably
19:02
S4: never will. Go ahead.
19:04
S1: There might be many of Kevin's former parliamentary colleagues who
19:07
S1: could relate to that sentiment. Rudd, I think, recovered pretty well. Paul,
19:11
S1: you know that from your extended research that Rudd actually
19:15
S1: did a lot behind the scenes to make this meeting
19:17
S1: happen and to make the critical minerals deal happen? Isn't
19:20
S1: that right?
19:21
S3: Yeah, I think there's that is absolutely right. There's a
19:24
S3: there's a kind of paradox with Rudd and his work
19:27
S3: in the US. There's a school of thought, and I
19:30
S3: think there's some truth to it that he struggles with
19:31
S3: access in parts of the white House. There are some
19:34
S3: people around Trump who are not fans of Rudd, and
19:36
S3: that does limit his access in some regards, where a
19:39
S3: person like Joe Hockey or Arthur Sinodinos would not have struggled.
19:42
S3: But in other regards, Rudd works the Congress incredibly hard.
19:46
S3: He works Trump's cabinet incredibly hard. He's got good relationships
19:49
S3: with Scott Bessent, with Jamieson Greer and with Howard Lutnick,
19:53
S3: and he's also got fantastic contacts inside the State Department
19:57
S3: with Marco Rubio and inside the Pentagon to this critical
20:01
S3: minerals deal was faltering for months. In the early part
20:04
S3: of this year, we put it on the table to
20:06
S3: the Americans when Trump threatened tariffs. It fell over. Rudd
20:10
S3: didn't stop working. He's been bringing miners and the heads
20:12
S3: of BHP and Rio into the white House to meet
20:15
S3: with Trump on some occasions, and he's just worked with,
20:18
S3: from all reports, incredible energy night and day to convince
20:22
S3: the Americans that we are the pathway through their issue
20:25
S3: to their dispute with China. So I think he deserves
20:28
S3: great credit. Tony Abbott gave him credit this week. Various
20:31
S3: others did who you wouldn't consider typical allies of Rudd.
20:33
S3: And I think Susan Lee's overreach calling for him to
20:36
S3: be or effectively calling for him to be sacked also
20:39
S3: really helped Albanese because even though there was that very
20:42
S3: awkward moment with Trump that did cast doubt on Rudd's role,
20:45
S3: the overreach meant that the criticism wasn't taken seriously.
20:48
S1: Bill, do you have anything to add to that?
20:50
S2: I think Kevin did well. He I agree with a
20:53
S2: lot of Paul's analysis. Um, you know, was it a
20:57
S2: bit gratuitous of the PM? Sorry, of the president to
21:00
S2: sledge him? I don't know. You know, part of me
21:02
S2: as an Australian doesn't want to see an Australian dressed
21:04
S2: down by someone else. I don't care what party or
21:06
S2: what you think of the Aussie. You know, you want
21:09
S2: to stand up for the Australian. But listen, I thought, uh,
21:13
S2: if this was Anthony's big success, I think it was certainly, uh,
21:18
S2: some of it's due to Kevin, and I think he
21:20
S2: deserves some credit for that. Love him or hate him,
21:22
S2: you can't take away, I think, from Paul's.
21:25
S3: Should he be extended his term? It's up. Up next year.
21:28
S2: Uh, it's not up to me.
21:29
S1: Do you think? I mean, obviously you ousted him or
21:31
S1: you were instrumental in ousting him from the prime ministership. Um,
21:34
S1: if we don't want to rake over the past. But
21:37
S1: it is on the public record.
21:39
S2: What is it about? If we don't want to rake
21:40
S2: over the past, you then start raking over the past.
21:43
S2: I'm just trying to work out the self-awareness question.
21:45
S1: These sort of nasty sort of, um, you know, um, skeletons.
21:48
S2: Our listeners, we're not torturing you to bring it up.
21:50
S2: But anyway, we're not, like, tickling you with a feather
21:53
S2: and making you just go there.
21:55
S3: I was secretly hoping she brought it up.
21:56
S2: What's been happening is that Kevin Rudd was a very
21:58
S2: good prime minister, and we've done some remarkable things since
22:01
S2: defeating John Howard. But I think you'd have to live
22:04
S2: on the moon to think that this government wasn't off
22:07
S2: track seriously, in the last few months. Certainly, I did
22:10
S2: speak to the then deputy Prime minister, now our Prime minister,
22:14
S2: and say that she should think about this.
22:16
S7: When did you first do that? On Wednesday. And so
22:20
S7: what has happened with this matter is that she gave
22:23
S7: it a great deal of serious reflection. It's a serious issue.
22:27
S1: There is a point to my question or to me
22:29
S1: bringing it up. You knew what his weaknesses were as
22:32
S1: a leader and a prime minister, very obviously. Do you think, actually,
22:35
S1: his idiosyncrasies and his talents are very well suited to
22:38
S1: this kind of role, which is more wonky, which is
22:40
S1: kind of putting people together behind the scenes and quietly working,
22:44
S1: you know, Congress or quietly working cabinet or whatever.
22:47
S2: I think he's suited to this role. Yeah, I've watched
22:49
S2: some of the, you know, more right wing people clutch
22:54
S2: their pearls and hyperventilate over Kevin and Kevin's not some
22:57
S2: sort of Mar a Lago drinking buddy of the president. Therefore,
23:01
S2: you know, he doesn't play a round of golf like
23:04
S2: Greg Norman. Is he the right guy to have there?
23:06
S2: But I think Kevin's proved that he's more than stood
23:10
S2: up as the ambassador to the US.
23:12
S1: Kevin's doing it Kevin's way.
23:14
S3: Bill, he's here to help.
23:15
S1: Exactly. He always has been. Bill, you've been an opposition leader, obviously.
23:19
S1: Do you feel for Susan Lee at the present moment
23:21
S1: because Albanese is riding so high? I mean, he's going
23:24
S1: to come back from this trip completely triumphant. You know,
23:27
S1: he's polling position couldn't be better. She tried to land
23:30
S1: a punch on the prime minister over the Rudd thing.
23:33
S1: It really didn't work. And then she had to back
23:36
S1: off it. If you were in opposition right now, if
23:39
S1: you were Sussan Ley right now, what would you be
23:41
S1: focusing on, given that Albanese is in such a strong position?
23:45
S2: Go domestic. Don't play in the foreign affairs patch. You know,
23:49
S2: sometimes an opposition leader will feel the need to say something,
23:52
S2: to say anything, but you don't have to be out
23:54
S2: there in the media every day and never fight on
23:57
S2: your opponent's ground when your opponent's doing well on that ground. Yeah.
24:02
S2: So if I was her, you just got to look
24:05
S2: like she's batting for Team Australia and, um, then get
24:09
S2: back to domestic issues or an issue, which she thinks
24:11
S2: she's on better ground. But anyway, as you always know,
24:15
S2: being opposition leader, everyone can do your job better than you,
24:18
S2: and they will frequently tell you that. But don't fight
24:22
S2: on your opponent's ground when your opponent's sort of kicking
24:25
S2: with the breeze and doing really well.
24:27
S1: Okay, so what ground should she fight on then?
24:30
S2: Oh.
24:32
S1: Give her a few tips. Come on.
24:34
S2: Well, the first thing you've got to do is, uh,
24:37
S2: deal with your own. Deal with the reasons why your
24:39
S2: own party lost. See, if you don't do a bit
24:42
S2: of a mea culpa and you don't deal with issues
24:45
S2: of substance, that's why. Should anyone think you've learnt anything?
24:51
S2: See if you don't recognise that you had policies which
24:54
S2: are the reason why you lost. Then the electorate might
24:57
S2: reasonably conclude you haven't worked it out and you don't
24:59
S2: respect their verdict. And this was a pretty big verdict.
25:02
S2: So I don't know. They've got themselves you know, they're
25:07
S2: more lost than Burke and Wills on climate change. But
25:10
S2: I don't think it's just that. I think you've got
25:13
S2: to deal with your own baggage. And like in 2013, 2014,
25:18
S2: we had three areas of baggage. We were not united.
25:22
S2: We had a problem with the boats. We had a
25:26
S2: problem with the carbon tax. So I made clear we
25:29
S2: wouldn't be reintroducing a carbon tax. I talked to the
25:33
S2: party conference, a view which said we would turn back
25:37
S2: boats and we stopped talking about ourselves. So to some extent,
25:43
S2: before you can engage the electorate, you've got to demonstrate
25:46
S2: your teams united and deal with a couple of the issues.
25:49
S2: You know, the libs have still got this soft underbelly
25:52
S2: about workplace relations and that working from home policy was. Wow.
25:58
S2: That was a you know, that was a it was
26:00
S2: like the Titanic of policies.
26:02
S1: It was as though they had spoken to a working
26:05
S1: parent anywhere around the country in sort of the life.
26:08
S1: It was like they.
26:09
S2: Were listening to the Restaurant and Caterers Association in the CBD.
26:13
S2: Who wants people in for lunch, and property developers who have,
26:17
S2: you know, buildings in the city which were not as
26:20
S2: full as they used to be, but that was a
26:23
S2: cost of living issue for families. If you didn't need
26:25
S2: to go into work five days a week, you were
26:27
S2: not paying the tolls. You're not paying the petrol, you're
26:29
S2: not paying the childcare. You know.
26:31
S3: How did you fix the because one of her biggest problems,
26:35
S3: Susan Lee, is fixing the internal issues. And it looks
26:38
S3: with so many of these bus stops she's having with
26:39
S3: Hastie and Price and others. Yeah. There's no communication going
26:42
S3: on in the party. The disparate groups aren't even talking
26:44
S3: to one another. I mean, your chief rival in 20 1314,
26:48
S3: when large part was the now prime minister, how did
26:49
S3: you deal with the internal problems then? How did you
26:52
S3: soothe that all? What are the lessons?
26:55
S2: Well, one of the things I did when I was
26:58
S2: leader is I made sure that all the different views
27:02
S2: were sitting at the shadow cabinet table. You got to
27:05
S2: bring people in. You've also got to try and get
27:08
S2: agreement on what went wrong. You don't have to like
27:10
S2: each other, but you've got to an agreement on what
27:11
S2: went wrong. And the borders issue had bedeviled Labour, and
27:15
S2: we really did put that issue to bed in that
27:18
S2: first term. And it wasn't easy. A lot of people
27:19
S2: were upset. Uh, so I'm not saying if I was.
27:23
S2: The coalition have to junk everything you believe in, but
27:26
S2: I think they've got to deal with their here's a
27:29
S2: they've got to pick out a couple of issues out
27:31
S2: of the coalition. Too hard basket and deal with it.
27:34
S2: And again, you know, there might be coalition supporters, diehards
27:39
S2: listening to this podcast who say, well, Bill would say
27:42
S2: what he's about to say, but I will say it anyway. Um,
27:46
S2: they've got to do something about their women issue. And
27:48
S2: by that I mean pre-selections like why the liberals are
27:53
S2: turning themselves inside out over affirmative action. Like, these people
27:58
S2: are really eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 20th century.
28:01
S2: I know.
28:02
S1: I mean, I've written so much on that, and I
28:04
S1: find it confounding because it's just it's just pragmatic. At
28:07
S1: this point, it's like, we know.
28:09
S2: It.
28:09
S1: Works. Yeah, it's low hanging fruit. We know it works.
28:11
S1: It'll get you where you need to go. Why wouldn't
28:13
S1: you press the button? We have run out of time.
28:15
S1: And Bill, we have to release you to go back
28:17
S1: to being a fusty academic over at the University of Canberra.
28:21
S2: My brain is already bigger.
28:22
S3: Are they making you, professor?
28:23
S1: Like, you know, smoking a pipe and kind of. Have
28:25
S1: you got one of those jackets with the leather patches
28:27
S1: on the.
28:28
S2: Oh, I'll tell you what's alarming. Paul has got a
28:31
S2: jacket which would fit him right in the school of
28:33
S2: journalism or, you know, government. Uh, we've got to make
28:37
S2: him an adjunct professor.
28:39
S1: He should, professor Paul.
28:41
S2: It's very.
28:42
S3: Academic. Not be valuable.
28:44
S1: All right. We've made too many personal comments on people's appearance.
28:47
S1: This this podcast. We've got to stop.
28:49
S2: I've only been complimentary.
28:50
S1: You have nicely. Um, Bill, it's been such a pleasure
28:55
S1: to have you. It was really fun. Um, we hope
28:57
S1: we can get you back again. And thanks for thanks
28:59
S1: for coming in.
28:59
S2: Thanks for asking my opinion. It's very flattering.
29:01
S1: And thanks to you, too, Paul.
29:03
S3: Professor Paul, hope that.
29:05
S2: Professor Paul. Alright, thanks. Cheers.
29:11
S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Carr Katzel, with technical
29:14
S1: assistance from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer
29:18
S1: is Tammy Mills, with special thanks to Tom McKendrick and
29:21
S1: Lisa Muxworthy. To listen to our episodes as soon as
29:24
S1: they drop, follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere
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29:34
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S1: subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm
29:44
S1: Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.