Latest / Rethink Revive with David Leake / Can a Christian be Possessed by a Demon? Part 2

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Can a Christian be Possessed by a Demon? Part 2 · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  Unknown: All right. Hey everybody. Welcome
• 0:03
  Dave Leake: to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have our culture creating conversations. I'm one of your hosts. My name is Dave.
• 0:09
  Jeff Leake: My name is Jeff. And again, we're glad you're with us. We want to just celebrate something. So the last episode that we did on was Jesus a Marxist. Kind of a unique title for our 100th episode. Yeah, that's some confetti, but thanks for joining us. We've been on a journey now for these last couple years. So Dave and I, of course, are father and son.
• 0:29
  Jeff Leake: We're both pastors at Allison Park church. I'm the Lead Pastor, Dave as the North Side campus pastor, and we're in our new studio, and this is our first chance to have a guest with us in our studio. So we want to welcome Tim. Paula, give it up, everybody. Yeah, welcome Tim. Thanks, guys. So
• 0:45
  Dave Leake: you want to say a little bit about who you are, yeah. So
• 0:48
  Unknown: my name is Tim. My My family used to live in the Pittsburgh area. We spent a long time here at Allison Park. Grew up in the kids ministry, the youth ministry, and now we serve as missionaries in Indonesia, my wife and I,
• 1:01
  Jeff Leake: awesome. So about how old were you when you first started coming to Allison Park?
• 1:03
  Jeff Leake: For me, I
• 1:06
  Unknown: think it was 1999 I think I was four. You were four, yeah, I think I came here pretty young, and then we stayed here for quite a while, like 12 years, or something like that.
• 1:15
  Unknown: Yeah.
• 1:15
  Jeff Leake: And you, and especially my son Josh, were pretty much growing up together, right? Yeah, yep, so and so. Now you're in Indonesia, and first of all, welcome. Second, tell people where in the world is Indonesia, because what I found is most people don't know. Yeah,
• 1:33
  Unknown: honestly, I didn't even know. And that's when I first met my wife. She had grown up there, so she's a missionary kid, spent pretty much her whole life. She only came back for college, and that's where we met. Indonesia, if you look at a map, is north of Australia, okay, a little south of the Philippines. If anybody knows where Singapore is in between those three countries, a lot of people know where Bali is because of Julia Roberts. So if you've ever watched that movie, Eat, Pray, Love. That's all, okay, yeah? It's not much of a dude movie, but it's, it's like out there. So if, for those of you who watch that, she goes to Bali, which is one island, okay, in Indonesia,
• 2:14
  Jeff Leake: very exotic. Beach oriented, yeah, part of the tropical Yeah, cool. Yeah. So and Indonesia is the fourth largest populated country on Earth. People know that, and it's growing. It's got, it's like a country of islands.
• 2:27
  Jeff Leake: Technically, there's
• 2:28
  Unknown: 17,000 islands, yeah, about 14 or 15,000 are inhabited,
• 2:33
  Jeff Leake: okay? And you pastor a unique church in a city called Maidan, yeah, right. So we,
• 2:39
  Unknown: we live in a city. It has roughly three 3 million people. Our church is all Indonesian people, or 99% but we preach and we teach in English.
• 2:47
  Unknown: People want to learn English.
• 2:50
  Unknown: Number one, that's kind of obvious. But number two, what we've really found is the different ethnic groups that never get along in a normal basis. We've now given them common ground, yeah, and they can now operate in worship and find out that those stereotypes don't need to be there. Okay, so that's why we do that. It's great, yeah, quickly we should pause
• 3:07
  Dave Leake: just to give gratitude
• 3:09
  Jeff Leake: before we go, yeah, go ahead, Dave. I'm sorry we did the intro for Tim. You know, shout outs. No
• 3:15
  Dave Leake: shout outs today, but thank you to those who are regular listeners, and we would love to give shout outs. One thing that we do every time is, if you are able to leave us a five star review, specifically on Apple podcast, we can see your name. We would love to give you a shout out so nobody new to recognize today. But we do want to say thank you, if you've been a part of this for a while, especially through our first 100 episodes, thank you, and excited for our next 100. This is the very first one of that. Thanks.
• 3:39
  Jeff Leake: The last two episodes we're the most downloaded and listened to episodes we've ever done. Oh, yeah, so maybe it's the topics.
• 3:44
  Jeff Leake: Maybe we got momentum, I don't know, but that pastors and alcohol one early was pretty big, yeah, what? But is nowhere near what just happened in the last two so
• 3:55
  Dave Leake: we're kind of on a topic again that attracted a good amount of attention. Last time we're actually we had
• 4:00
  Jeff Leake: a part two. You had a lot of follow up questions to this one, right? Oh, a ton,
• 4:03
  Dave Leake: actually, people the the biggest response I had was people loved your reactions. So, so, so the last time we did, we did, we did an episode called, Can Christians be demon possessed? Yeah. So this is our follow up Episode Part Two, Can Christians be imposed? I had so many people that were like, it was my favorite episode, because they said, like, you sounded like, annoyed, like,
• 4:27
  Jeff Leake: but Dave
• 4:29
  Dave Leake: So and actually, I don't even know that, by the end, there was a really good understanding of even what your position was. A lot of people I talked to were like, I'm afraid to ask pastor Jeff about this, because he sounded like he was so against all this stuff, and I don't even think you really were, but so this is a follow up episode, because not only was that one, you know, talked about, but I think there were a lot of questions that came out of that. And we're bringing Tim on today for a number of reasons, but one is that demonic. City, but not just a Monica to the I guess deliverance ministry is a pretty crucial, you know, part of ministry over there in Indonesia, right? Yeah,
• 5:07
  Unknown: yeah, for sure.
• 5:08
  Jeff Leake: So maybe give us the spiritual, spiritual like, what?
• 5:11
  Jeff Leake: What's the spiritual dynamic in Indonesia?
• 5:13
  Unknown: Yeah. So technically, if you were to give or take a census, I think the last one they took was 2020 so in 2020 the majority religion is Muslim, Islam. It's the largest Muslim nation in the world, and so it's like 89% Muslim. The rest of the 11% most of it's Buddhist. So there's a lot of Buddhists. And then a smaller portion is Hindu.
• 5:35
  Unknown: I think technically we have less than 1% Christian.
• 5:40
  Jeff Leake: So we're talking about approximately 300 million people who live in Indonesia.
• 5:44
  Jeff Leake: That's
• 5:45
  Unknown: right, close to 300 million. So almost a little smaller than the US, and less than 1% is Christian.
• 5:52
  Jeff Leake: I just think about how much God cares about Indonesia, and how much we don't know anything about it. It's, it's pretty, pretty amazing. So okay, but you, you told me, Tim, when I was over there, because I just traveled to be over there with you, and went to me, Dan, me, Dan, say, the right, yeah, it's
• 6:08
  Unknown: like, may Don, May.
• 6:08
  Unknown: Dan, sorry, like, made like may Don, go to the bathroom. Okay, if there's a person named
• 6:15
  Jeff Leake: may Don, okay, so you said that even the Islamic or Buddhist has some there's like a spiritism. That's a part of everybody's faith.
• 6:27
  Unknown: Oh, yeah, it's interesting. And I, I don't have the qualification to really delve into the history, but what I do know is the historical climate of Indonesia, spiritually was that for centuries, it was completely animistic. There was no
• 6:42
  Jeff Leake: give the give the description of that word. What does animistic mean?
• 6:45
  Unknown: Yeah, it's more or less worshiping what this is, the way I understand it from Indonesia.
• 6:48
  Unknown: It's worshiping what you would see or observe, and trees, the sun, yeah, more elemental things that they then ascribe spiritual power to, yeah. And then probably somewhere around the 1600s is when a formalized religion came from the Netherlands. So that's when Indonesia was colonized by the Netherlands. That's when a lot of these things started to shift. But that's when also Islam came through the trade routes and everything the capital city of Indonesia, which is Jakarta today, was known as the capital to the Dutch East Indies back in the day, known as Batavia. So all this trade was coming in and out of Indonesia, and with it was formalized religion that came. But to my experience and what I'm seeing and what I've learned is that that's there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's what's being followed or practiced. Yeah. So that's kind of mixture. It's definitely a mixture where
• 7:49
  Dave Leake: it's like folk religion and animism mixed into former formal religion, is what you mean. So
• 7:55
  Unknown: the way that I try to see it and understand it myself, because we also pastor people who are Christian Right, or who have come to know the Lord, there's five protected religions by the Indonesian constitution, and interestingly, you have to pick one. You are not allowed to be an atheist. So on your ID card, you pick your religion, which then provides people this concept of, okay, I follow God.
• 8:19
  Unknown: I follow what I believe is true.
• 8:25
  Unknown: But when I look at it and what I've learned now, and actually what people have taught me, is that 80% of what's really the foundation of their faith rests in animism, ancestral worship, or some other kind of witchcraft. Then on top of that, as like a mask to fit within that governmental structure is a religion. You want
• 8:49
  Dave Leake: to give us a quick synopsis of what animism is. For those that wouldn't know, you missed it. I
• 8:53
  Jeff Leake: already asked him that, but yeah,
• 8:56
  Dave Leake: well, he was saying ancestral worship. But it's probably more than just
• 8:59
  Unknown: that. Yeah, maybe, like, I'll just give an example.
• 9:02
  Unknown: I went to this island one time, and there were, there were a group of people who were, quote, unquote, Muslim, but they were worshiping this giant rock, like, this huge thing, yeah? And they were like, Yeah, we're Muslim, but that thing tells us what to do. Like, how does that work? And so, like, there's like, stuff like that is why now, is the rock the power, but the practice, the day to day form, is some kind of religion, yeah. So they may
• 9:32
  Jeff Leake: burn incense in front of this rock, or they might bow down and pray near it to think that association with it somehow brings good luck or good fortune, or Yeah,
• 9:42
  Unknown: they were actually, they were performing sacrifices, like animal sacrifices, to the rock. It was kind of weird. The Rock would then, like, morph. I didn't see it, but the rock would like morph into an image of the next thing that would die. So there was definitely some demonic activity going on.
• 9:58
  Unknown: And they recognized the rock has. Power, even though we have some form of religion, the rock has power. Yeah, right, right,
• 10:04
  Dave Leake: yeah, so, but probably, probably Muslims from the Middle East wouldn't actually consider that to be real Islam. Like, whenever you mix
• 10:13
  Unknown: very accurate statement, it's interesting. The world's largest Muslim nation is criticized for not really being Muslim, right? Because of what we're talking about is the history and the culture and the all that stuff is intertwined.
• 10:26
  Unknown: They're not really considered pure Muslim, yeah, yeah.
• 10:29
  Jeff Leake: It's interesting.
• 10:29
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so, so this brings us back to our topic, which is, Can a Christian be demon possessed?
• 10:35
  Jeff Leake: Part Two, and what, what we're bringing Tim on for is he is a practitioner, a pastor ministering to people in a place where there's a lot of Spiritism and animism, and we now get out of theology for a minute in a very practical ministry, because you're winning people to Jesus, and they're getting baptized and getting discipled, and you deal with this very deep theological question about Christianity, Can you be a Christian Indian possessed in real time? So Dave, I will pass the baton to you.
• 11:06
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, we
• 11:06
  Dave Leake: got a lot of ways we could take this, I guess, dive
• 11:10
  Jeff Leake: and I'll and I'll get annoyed on occasion. That's
• 11:12
  Dave Leake: fine. That's great.
• 11:12
  Dave Leake: I might, I might just start off with that when you get annoyed here to begin with, um, so can you, I guess, let me, let me, before we even go into the fuller conversation. I think that. And by the way, if you haven't listened to our first episode, it would be worth starting there. So if you want to, I would say, just because we won't cover all the same bases.
• 11:30
  Dave Leake: If you haven't listened to it, I would just pause right here. You can go back to that one. It's probably just called, you know, kind of Christian medium possessed like, it's
• 11:39
  Jeff Leake: like, eight episodes. Yeah, it's
• 11:41
  Dave Leake: not that far back, but go back there. Listen to that one first that'll kind of get caught up, okay. But for those who have listened to it, can you tell me where you are now? Because when we last talked, what was so funny to me was you said, don't even tell me. Like, I don't even want to know your thoughts. I was like, Well, are you sure? Like, I probably want to tell you this so that you're not caught off guard. Like, no say. Guard, like, no, save it. So it was like, what it was. I
• 12:05
  Jeff Leake: remember that, yeah, you said, you said I wanted, rather than not start the conversation there, let's start with Tim and then, and let's see you don't, you don't want to tell where your current viewpoint is, so I think my current viewpoint is too complicated to tell him. Great, okay, that's
• 12:20
  Dave Leake: fine. That's fine.
• 12:20
  Dave Leake: Well, I'll say this then at some point, I think giving us at least where you're leaning or what your thoughts will be worth more. I
• 12:29
  Jeff Leake: will, if you will.
• 12:29
  Jeff Leake: Oh,
• 12:30
  Dave Leake: great, yeah, I can do that for sure. I don't mind.
• 12:33
  Dave Leake: I'm never the person that has a hard time. First time. Alright, so, so let's, let's, let's get into this. I think the last time we talked about, just in general, the spiritual world.
• 12:52
  Dave Leake: And you know how, actually, a lot of Jesus ministry was preaching the gospel, healing the sick, casting out demons. So clearly, you know, in a part of the clearly, a part of the ministry of the church should be in the name of Jesus, you know, bringing freedom to those that are oppressed by demons, right?
• 13:09
  Dave Leake: That are demonized in some way.
• 13:09
  Dave Leake: The the real force of contention, I think, that we were having last time, was, Can a Christian be demonized? So I guess let's start there. In your experience, have you seen professing Christians that have needed deliverance, or do you want
• 13:27
  Jeff Leake: to so in our Western culture, this conversation is has been historically less prominent because you see less of this deliverance ministry happening in most churches in West that's true. You probably grew up with that being a foreign idea. 100% read about it in the New Testament, but didn't really see it ever happen. Right then you move to Indonesia and you start ministry, and in a lot of cultures that are more animistic or maybe spiritualistic, you might see it more prominent, and you were all of a sudden thrust into a world when this was so give us your first experience with what?
• 14:03
  Unknown: First time. Yeah, first time. Okay, so I It always brings me back to my father in law, was a missionary for 23 years, and I remember the day that I left, or shortly before we left for the field, he looked at me and was like, I just want to remind you what happens isn't always what you've read. And I was like, Thanks, man. Like, I mean, like, I get that, but that doesn't really help me. And he was like, well, you'll figure it out. So I remember probably the first time that I experienced it as a leader, because, because I'd seen things before, and I'd been on teams, and I've like, you can observe. I remember one time I was with him. This was probably father in law. My father in law. Yeah, that's correct. We went to this little island that was ruled by a king.
• 14:46
  Unknown: It's technically still ruled by a king, and like, he took me out there. So it took us like 48 hours to fly to Indonesia from here, and then we got on like two or three flights that took us nine hours. To get to this island. Then we took a boat, then we took a car, and so, like, we finally got to this like little speck of an island, and it's just like, awesome and beautiful and tropical, and we had this revival service, and this was like ground zero for me. I was fresh off the boat. I didn't know anything about the country, the culture, the language, and he's preaching his heart out up there, because now he's like, back in his element.
• 15:21
  Unknown: I couldn't understand a word until I heard my name. So he's like, up at the front. He's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Tim, get up here and pray, which no one knew what he was saying because they didn't speak English. And so I'm like, in the back of the room. And so I'm like, giving him, like, really, you want me to pray? He's like, get up here. We're gonna pray for the sick. And I'm like, All right, dude, I'll come up. So I walked up, started praying for people, and that was when I first realized that this room, we were doing a revival service, not an evangelistic outreach. So the room were Christians, okay, but they were beginning to be set free. And so I remember thinking, like, well, there's, they're, they're Christians.
• 16:04
  Unknown: Like, they've, they've already accepted Jesus. But then why now are they dealing with these weird, like, demonic things? How could
• 16:09
  Dave Leake: you tell they were beginning to be set free? What
• 16:11
  Jeff Leake: did it give us the Yeah, you could. You could. So
• 16:13
  Unknown: that my first experience I was, I was distracted by so much, so I was tired, dehydrated, all this stuff. But then off to the corner, I saw my father in law and this other local pastor praying for a gentleman who was just like, kind of like doing this with his head, and like rolling his eyes and kind of like grumbling, it's loud, if you've ever been into, like, a another culture's revival service, it's like, always loud and sweaty. And so I, like, I couldn't quite hear everything, but I remember opening my eyes and looking at him, and they were like, with him for like, an hour, and he was starting to, like, you know, do one of these?
• 16:47
  Unknown: Like, moving his arms. At the end of the night, I went over to my father in law, and I'm like, hey, who was that guy? And he was like, Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was demon possessed. I'm like, so what happened? Like, did you pray for him? Did he get set free? He's like, No, we got pretty tired, so, like, we'll pray for him tomorrow. I'm like, wait, you just let him go. And he's like, Well, the Holy Spirit leads these moments, like, we can't always just, like, force these things to happen. And I was like, wow, there's a lot in there. So I kind of dismissed it for a moment, but I it stuck with me. For the record, he eventually did get set free.
• 17:19
  Unknown: It's not like you just let him go. And he was like, oh, with him another year. But I remember looking at that congregation thinking, these are Christians who've been who've already accepted Jesus, who have salvation. This guy, for some reason, was still being what you said earlier. He wasn't free. A lot of what we do now revolves around a very simple statement, bringing freedom and healing.
• 17:44
  Unknown: Yeah? So everything our church, like we've constructed it that way based on these experiences, that people can be saved, but they might not yet be free or completely made whole. Yeah? And that's probably a little bit more on the topic of, like, where we're going with this. Is that how? How can the two exist in one? Yeah,
• 18:03
  Dave Leake: I so I grew up, you know? I grew up just always believing that it was impossible for So, okay, let me say this.
• 18:10
  Dave Leake: This is a very quick summary of our last episode, when I pictured demon possessed. I pictured somebody who is being actively controlled, and their thoughts, actions, possibly their words by a demon. So, you know, not necessarily has to be like, you know, What's that movie that I forget? Exorcist, yeah, they actually, and not that it has to be like that, but, but some degree of, like, they are not just in control themselves, right? And, you know, like, how can, you know, how can salt and light be in the same thing, like, there's a, I'm misquoting the Scripture again, but there's a number of verses that I would read that I thought, okay, yeah, this means, you know, or there's, um, where Jesus talks about the the he's being criticized by the Pharisees. You know, he's casting out demons by the finger of Beelzebub. And he goes, in this parable, how they
• 18:56
  Jeff Leake: accuse him of that he wasn't. No, no, I'm sorry.
• 18:59
  Jeff Leake: Jesus was being accused. He's
• 19:00
  Dave Leake: being accused by the Pharisees of casting out demons by demonic power, right, right?
• 19:03
  Dave Leake: How is it possible to do that if a house, house divided against self, can't stand right?
• 19:08
  Dave Leake: Exactly. You know, first and strongman has to go a demon, cast out a demon. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:11
  Dave Leake: For a stronger one has to go in and bind up the strong man, referring to what the Holy Spirit does. But so from that, I always understood the meaning to be when somebody is saved, especially when they're filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then is the strong then that prevents any demonic power from being able to be an influence. But when I studied it a little bit more, I kind of realized that's actually not really the point of what Jesus is actually saying there is that once you're a Christian, or once you've been even filled the Holy Spirit that it's impossible for demonic influence. Studying this out a little bit more, you know, like, this is just, I'm so I'm now telling kind of my current stance. Studying this out a little bit more. I've realized that the word for a demon possessed actually just as the word, you know, for demonized.
• 19:55
  Dave Leake: So you're tormented by a demon in some way. And. There's probably a spectrum as to how much influence the demon has.
• 20:01
  Dave Leake: And I think that when Paul talks, I think it's an Ephesians, when he talks about, don't give the devil a foothold.
• 20:07
  Dave Leake: Ephesians four, I
• 20:09
  Jeff Leake: think, is where it is, yeah, bitterness or harbored anger can give the devil a foothold, right? Just a few verses prior to that, verse 19 talks about giving yourself over to sensuality, which creates a continuing lust for more. So, so yeah, what you're saying, Dave is there is a spectrum upon which the devil can impact or even dominate your life, depending upon how much ground you give over to the enemy. Like when you become bitter inside, you give a ground within your mind, will and emotions to the influence and harassment of the devil's work, and that can become a binding stronghold on you that has to be broken, right? So we're talking less about possession. We're talking more about stronghold. But strongholds can be so severe that it can feel like possession. I guess it's one word thing. I
• 21:01
  Dave Leake: mean, I'll just say I've personally, there's a story. It's a little sensitive, so I can't share the details of it, but I've very recently seen where there's a long time Christian that can absolutely be even the full extent of what I was thinking of as possession.
• 21:16
  Dave Leake: I'm not saying that that's common. So
• 21:20
  Jeff Leake: slow down. Sure.
• 21:20
  Jeff Leake: Let's let Tim weigh in on that.
• 21:22
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so
• 21:23
  Unknown: give us more story.
• 21:23
  Unknown: Okay, stories from your experience as a pastor, probably the best thing that I could do is just share stories, because I'm following both of like, what you're both saying, and again, back to my father in law's comment. He's like, everything you're about to experience is probably not what you've read.
• 21:38
  Unknown: And I'm like,
• 21:40
  Dave Leake: when you read in the Bible, is that what he meant or anything? Just you haven't experienced anything like
• 21:45
  Unknown: this. He's just like, things don't follow the rules.
• 21:47
  Unknown: Like, okay, not just because Indonesia is wild, but he's like, the world is wild, yeah?
• 21:50
  Unknown: Like, you're gonna Yeah, and you can't always make sense of it.
• 21:54
  Unknown: So I guess it was about six months ago we had this is before you came and visited me. We welcomed about 4040, pastors that would have been local people in our city. So these are like smaller churches, maybe 50 people in the city, though we welcomed them into our building, and I had a close friend who's kind of like a pastoral mentor in my life, come and teach a one day, like mini seminar on deliverance. And so we went from, like typical missionary style, it was like 7am into like 7pm so it's like a 12 hour day, and we just talked a lot about deliverance. And then at the end of it, which you guys have been on a lot of mission stuff before. So you always know that, like, somehow, at the end of a seminar or teaching, it always ends in, like, a service, yeah, and so he's teaching, and I'm in the back, like, on the sound board, because our sound guy was sick, and so I'm like, sitting there just unmuting microphones, and all of a sudden he starts singing. And I'm like, Well, I play keyboard. So I, like, ran up to the stage and I started playing keyboard, and we had this, like, service all of a sudden, and where he was getting to at the end of His teaching was, what do you need to be set free from today? Yeah, as a leader, yeah. And so at that moment, I'm like, Okay, people are gonna pray for like, temptations or relational issues or whatever. Well, all the people in the room are pastors, so not just Christians. They're like, leading churches. And I'm up there, and two of my staff helped me with the day. So they were, like, helping us with lunches and, like, lights and stuff like that. So they're in the back of the room. They're they're like, newer to all of this stuff. And like, you should come in, like, are they Americans or no, no. All our staff is local to Maidan, okay?
• 23:42
  Unknown: And so they're in the back of the room. I'm like, this will be a good experience for you to learn just digest what you can.
• 23:47
  Unknown: And I'm up at the keyboard now playing for this moment, and these pastors come forward, and two of them start to manifest, like, right in my church? And I'm like, was
• 23:58
  Jeff Leake: it was describe this manifest is like, is a word that so many different right? New Agers use it too now. So, yeah, go ahead. What does that
• 24:05
  Unknown: mean? So I'll just tell you what I saw and what I witnessed. And my poor staff in the back were like, jaw Tim, what's going on? So these, these people all came forward. It's like what you would see on a typical altar call, people being prayed for. And then all of a sudden, two of these, maybe 20 people, started wailing. They're just like crying at first, just immensely, like, what, like, they're like, really loud all of a sudden. And then the wailing turned into like growling. They were like, and they were like rashing, doing one and then this one lady, because she was like, right in front of it's always the keys player, by the way, it's like, always in front of them. And so this lady's just like, on the floor, and I'm like, playing the song, and I'm like, Oh my goodness. And she's like, she must have screamed for at least three minutes straight.
• 24:58
  Unknown: Like, no, no, bro. Breath, and I'm like,
• 25:01
  Jeff Leake: gotta keep playing myself.
• 25:04
  Unknown: And so she's like, doing this thing. Her eyes are wide open and, like, super bloodshot and and you just know, in that moment, it's not natural, something supernatural in her. It's, it's probably the flip side. And I could be wrong.
• 25:19
  Unknown: I'm not sure if you guys talked about this in the last podcast, but like, we ask the Holy Spirit to empower us supernaturally, and we know that that's not natural. Yeah, right. I've often looked at manifestation of a demonic force similarly, where you look at it and you're like, that's not natural, totally, you're just looking at something supernatural happening in their life. It's not from the Holy Spirit, it doesn't bring peace, it doesn't bring healing, it it's, it's not edifying. It's, like, all of those, you're like, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's not this. So it must be, yeah, that right, but it's definitely not natural, like, they're having a nervous breakdown, or, like, yeah, sure, you can identify.
• 25:54
  Unknown: Like, whoa. This is different.
• 25:59
  Unknown: And so that started happening in the church. And I don't know if you want me to keep telling a story, but that's that, yeah, that's where it was. So that's good.
• 26:06
  Dave Leake: And then they get set, set free through praying for them. Yeah, thankfully
• 26:09
  Unknown: we we prayed for them.
• 26:09
  Unknown: It was kind of this moment where several people gathered around them. We don't really do a lot of discussion. You don't really try to communicate with with that demonic influence. You, you confront that right where it is you. You typically just go up to and say, be quiet in Jesus name.
• 26:27
  Unknown: And then if the person's able to communicate, we, we try to welcome them and say, like, Hey, do
• 26:32
  Jeff Leake: you not the demon?
• 26:32
  Jeff Leake: The person, hey,
• 26:34
  Unknown: do you want to be set free from this? Yeah,
• 26:37
  Jeff Leake: so you silence the demon using your spiritual authority and just by giving a command. And it's not even like,
• 26:42
  Unknown: Oh Lord, we ask you in the name of like, it's not that.
• 26:45
  Unknown: It's just in the name of Jesus, be quiet. And it's not arrogant.
• 26:49
  Unknown: It's just direct. It's just authority. It's just Yeah, right. Hey, we know that you don't have power here. So be quiet. They listen, and they listen, okay? And then you do your best in that moment to talk to the person, right? Because usually they're just like any other ministry. Yep. Hey, how are you struggling? What's going on? Can you tell me what you've been involved in? If the person's able to communicate what they've been involved Okay,
• 27:10
  Jeff Leake: so give examples, what might bring this condition of demonic demonization on?
• 27:13
  Jeff Leake: Okay,
• 27:16
  Unknown: so specifically, in my context, and and where I think this might help us tie some of these things together in our discussion, like, how can a pastor or a Christian be demonized? This, these two people and many other examples that I've experienced in Indonesia is many times it's linked to a family member or an ancestor that has worshiped and or consulted supernatural darkness over their life, over their family, and welcomed that in generationally. And so these people may or may not really even be aware that that was going on. It's almost like a passive allowance. Like, Oh, my dad was kind of like, involved in this, and he gave me this trinket to, like, hold on to, and he still prays like this for my family, but it's just like he's just being weird. These people had a very strong story in that moment. They're like, well, let me tell you. And they told us the story about how their ancestors had basically cursed them, and they had made a deal with witch doctors to protect their family. And they, many times, they have some kind of, like, it's not really always an amulet, but like, something, we Yeah, yeah. The Indonesian word is GMAT. I don't even know how to say that in English, but it's like, yeah, something. It's like a artifact of power. And some, yeah, yeah, something. So these
• 28:39
  Jeff Leake: pastors and leaders were holding on to an artifact of spiritualism that had been devoted to demonic power that their ancestors had linked them to Yes, and they, by holding it, were coming into agreement with that demonic covenant that had been made by a former generation Yes, which was having an invisible impact on them until they Got into the presence of God, where, all of a sudden, the demonic spirit couldn't handle being in the presence of God to that degree, and started to freak out absolutely which, which, which is when, oftentimes, a demonic spirit manifest is right before they come out, because they can tell something's going on here. And I better do something about this.
• 29:17
  Jeff Leake: And so you came renounced the authority of that demon, ministered to the person, and got them to renounce their their ancestral covenant, covenant, yes, with evil, yes. And freedom came.
• 29:31
  Unknown: That would be, that would be exactly the progression that happened. And what, what I learned, and I'm learning, is that, and I try to tell our church this all the time, because it's so common, so many people in Indonesia, their families have done this, or are doing this. Like my brother does this, and I didn't even really know what he was doing, but he gave me this to hold on to, and I tell them demonic manifestation, or if something like that happens, it's not really scary. It's not like what you see, like on the movies.
• 29:59
  Unknown: Like. Yeah, like, you know, like, weird. It probably can have a weird form like that at times, but it's, it's a shocking moment that you know is not, you know, it's not natural, but it's more like, in that moment, the the demon or the spirit, is terrified of the power of the one true God, the Holy Spirit, who's now coming into the moment, revealing what's been hidden. Indonesia is this giant land of hiddenness. That's the way that I like to see it. Now it's like, there's a bunch of stuff, like, right under the surface, with the mask of a religion over top of it. But then once people come into the presence of God, the Holy Spirit reveals all that darkness, and the demons are like, No, we can't let this happen. And they try to scare people.
• 30:45
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so let me probe a little bit, because I have no problem with what you just shared, theologically.
• 30:51
  Jeff Leake: Okay, even though I was, I was presenting a lot of objections in the last episode, but here's what I don't understand, and I know you may not have an answer for this, either, but this is what I'm curious about. Yeah. So if, when a person gets saved, the Holy Spirit enters their life, why is it at that moment of salvation, when the presence of the Holy Spirit takes them from death to life, that the demon doesn't leave, then
• 31:13
  Dave Leake: I actually think
• 31:14
  Jeff Leake: I have a good answer for this, because this is what the crux of the issue is.
• 31:16
  Jeff Leake: Wherever the presence of the Holy Spirit is, there's power, there's freedom, there's life.
• 31:22
  Jeff Leake: Demons can't dominate where the presence of God exists, and you can't be possessed by two things at the same time. So that's why I object to the word possession, because I think of a person is genuinely saved. They're possessed by the Holy Spirit, but being harassed by this presence of agreement with evil that they have in their life that's dominating them. Okay, so give me your response. Dave,
• 31:43
  Dave Leake: yeah.
• 31:45
  Unknown: You know you Yeah.
• 31:45
  Unknown: Dave,
• 31:48
  Dave Leake: well, I guess here'd Be my thought. There are a number of times in the New Testament, when we're talking like there are warnings that are given about not allowing sin.
• 31:59
  Dave Leake: And here, you know what? Why don't I look up this? But,
• 32:02
  Jeff Leake: yeah, go ahead, Tim.
• 32:02
  Jeff Leake: You tell your your thoughts on this, and then Dave can find His scripture. How do you how do you manage that idea? Yeah,
• 32:10
  Unknown: so, so, if I'm understanding correctly, if you get saved, the Holy Spirit is, is now regenerating you. It's, it's, he's sanctifying you. You now are born again, right? He lives inside of you. Yes. How can that now coexist with this demonic influence, which I would also agree with, this concept of possession again, earlier, we've kind of, we've kind of constructed our ministry approach to bringing freedom and healing. Yes, so if that's different from
• 32:39
  Jeff Leake: deliverance, correct? Yes, so, which is also one of my concerns. But go ahead, I agree, freedom and healing, but keep keep going. So
• 32:51
  Unknown: the non, oh, boy, I hope nobody watches this from my church. Well, it's okay. They already know who I am. The very like direct comment that I hear in the back of my head that's not very pastoral, that's very harsh. And I've heard you struggle with this many times in the podcast. You're like, I just and, yeah, Dave, you're like, a great instigator of these things. You're like, Come on, just see what you feel. I would probably in the back of my mind be like, is this person, have they really accepted Christ, or are they just accepting the idea, like, I can't be the judge of that, but that's probably a whole different discussion of, what does it really mean for me to accept and die to myself and surrender To the Lord and like, allow all those things, or am I not really doing that? And if, if, if there's a degree at which I should be doing that, like, how much is enough? Like, there's so many questions involved in that. But when I look at somebody who's obviously controlled, so there's not freedom, yeah, that makes me wonder, not in a judgmental way, but in like a how now do I have to try to diagnose? Yeah, minister to them appropriately.
• 34:09
  Unknown: And many times I find that these people don't really they haven't surrendered their life to the Lord they they might be a little bit more on the side of knowing who he is. Now, I could be wrong, but I think a lot of that then, like, as a as a litmus test, again, it's not judgmental. But I look at them and I'm like, if they are filled with the Holy Spirit, if they've now been set free, and they've they've accepted Christ and are being sanctified, there will be fruit in their life. The fruit of the Spirit will dominate in their life. Doesn't mean that it's always going to be the only thing in their life, but almost every single person that comes to us for prayer who has demonic activity in their life, or some kind of like control, not possession, but control, they don't have peace, they don't have joy, they don't have these other fruits of the Spirit in their life. So so that
• 34:58
  Jeff Leake: would be one explanation. Right one? Let me just summarize. One explanation would be, even this pastor who's holding a position, because you can actually be in a position at a church and not actually have experienced genuine salvation.
• 35:13
  Jeff Leake: So you're saying One explanation is that they're not actually saved, and that this is revealing that and the deliverance is bringing salvation into their life.
• 35:21
  Jeff Leake: That's one that'd
• 35:22
  Unknown: be super harsh, and I probably wouldn't like directly be like, you're not really safe.
• 35:25
  Unknown: Yeah, okay.
• 35:27
  Dave Leake: But I have another I have another alternative. You see, here's, here's the comparison I would make there sometimes. So we know that from from James five, or from First Corinthians, which chapters 11, that sometimes sickness can be caused by sin that we allow, even as a Christian. So James 516, says, Therefore, confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so they may be healed. Even before that, it says verse 15, the prayer effort and faith make the sick person well, or Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. There's a direct connection that, not that all sickness is caused by but some sickness is caused by sin.
• 36:07
  Dave Leake: Sin is, or sickness, excuse me, is a part of the curse of sin.
• 36:11
  Dave Leake: It wasn't there in the garden.
• 36:11
  Dave Leake: It won't be there, you know, in heaven, right? Jesus, I mean, I just literally did a whole thing about this on Sunday. But Jesus, when, he heals a cripple woman on the Sabbath, and they say, you shouldn't be doing that, he says, Satan's had this woman bound for 18 years. You know, you're telling me I shouldn't set her free. Satan was the one that bound her in sickness anyway. So if somebody is filled with the Holy Spirit and and they can still, through sin, allow something like sickness to come in to me that says that they're allowing some sort of dark influence, some sort of demonic influence, even though the Holy Spirit lives there like the other one is, is communion in in First Corinthians, 11, you know, verse 30 says this is why some of you have have become sick. You've eaten and drank judgment upon yourselves by taking communion with unforgiveness in your hearts. So I think that there is reference like, if, to me, sickness and demonization aren't the same thing, but they're very sort of Linked in that same type of sphere. So I think that as Christians, if through sins like unforgiveness,
• 37:20
  Jeff Leake: yeah. Now the danger with that, what you just said, is that anyone who's a believer who has sickness is starting to say you can't diagnose every sickness as related to a compromise,
• 37:30
  Dave Leake: absolutely not, just
• 37:31
  Jeff Leake: like you can't relate every struggle you're having to live in victory with a demonic power. Yeah, right. One of the dangers of overemphasizing deliverance is that people substitute deliverance for discipleship.
• 37:44
  Jeff Leake: They think in order for me to grow in Christ, I have to be perpetually delivered by some superhero Christian that's going to come wave his hand over me and make me all better. So I actually think the important thing is to teach people how to live a victorious life, so that they don't end up stuck in a sickness that isn't a part of God's will, yes, or that they live in victory using their authority in Christ, so that they begin to follow Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit, which, if you are doing that, you should have zero fear of the devil ever jumping on you. So we'll get there. Okay, I want to talk about what, what we do to to Yes, but, but, but, could a person who's giving ground through whatever agreement with spiritualism, a generational curse, bitterness, pornography, constant compromise in an area be allowing the devil to get such a stronghold of control in their life that it becomes a severe harassment when they get into the presence of God, There is an emotional and physical reaction. Yeah, that is involved in them coming into freedom and healing. I would say, yes, absolutely.
• 38:47
  Dave Leake: The simple version of what you just said is any of those things could allow Christian to be demonized, theoretically,
• 38:55
  Jeff Leake: right? Demonized?
• 38:55
  Jeff Leake: Just find demonizing demon possessed. What's the difference between those? Demon possessed
• 39:00
  Dave Leake: is just the English translation we have. I'm going to mispronounced the Greek works. I won't even try to say it, but it's the Greek translation of demonized, which so is a spectrum can be from just being tormented, like you have night terrors constantly, or, you know what I mean, like there's, I think sometimes intrusive thoughts. Can be from being demonized, right? Not that there. It's not like these are the only explanations. But it could be on a spectrum from there to actually the further end, which would be that, yeah, when you
• 39:31
  Jeff Leake: come on, this tells the story about this guy that got set free one of his meetings. And when he was set free, he woke up and he was unaware of his if his whereabouts for like, eight years. Yeah, right, right. He'd lost his mind and was wandering around and his beard had grown, and, yeah, when he woke up, he was like, what nation Am I
• 39:49
  Dave Leake: in? Yeah, it was, like, really far. But even even up to the point of, like, where, okay, but when people think of demonizing you, it's possible that even coming in the presence of God, that when. Come like you're confessing a certain sin, that there could be a level of my body is doing some weird things that I wouldn't expect, like it's not, I'm not doing this. But when
• 40:09
  Jeff Leake: people think of demonize they think about the dude that didn't know where it was for eight years. Yeah, you
• 40:13
  Dave Leake: would have to really let something in your life so intense and severe to at the point of where you're probably totally backslidden. You're not really serving God. Okay, I have a friend who I don't think he might be saying his name, but I want to guess. And he came out of the New Age background, and he was filled the Holy Spirit.
• 40:32
  Dave Leake: He was saved the Holy Spirit.
• 40:36
  Dave Leake: Then learned about deliverance and prayed a prayer. You know of himself, because you can do self deliverance to send things out.
• 40:42
  Dave Leake: You have the Holy Spirit inside of
• 40:43
  Jeff Leake: you, I would, I would use a different phrase, okay, right? Self Deliverance. I would say, you can break, strong, you can break.
• 40:48
  Dave Leake: But for him, his testimony was it felt like things left him okay, when he prayed through this and he received freedom, and felt like he had way more breakthrough from some issues that were, you know, or that were a struggle for him. So all this to say, I think that, like, okay, yes, like I said, not all sicknesses caused by demons. And I don't think that every Christian is demonized or needs to be freaked out. I think it's important that we bring this into our framework, because the danger is saying, Well, you know what?
• 41:21
  Dave Leake: Like, like, again, this is not, we don't want to blame anybody who's struggling with something, but to say like, oh well, it's not. You're it would have to be so crazy for something demonic or for some kind of stronghold to cause sickness. I think the framework is we always should ask the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, what are you asking of me? Is there anything that I'm allowing into my life? Because this is how we let the Holy Spirit speak to us. But nobody should feel blamed or like we are saying you're demonized at the same time, I would say it's important for us to talk through the framework of so what does a Christian do to protect themselves? How do I know if I might have some type of demonization? Because I think I know people that they heard our first podcast, they're freaked out, like you're telling me, like I might currently, like, have a demon, and I know about it. Well,
• 42:07
  Jeff Leake: yeah, pastorally, I'm worried about that too.
• 42:09
  Jeff Leake: That's probably why I came across as annoyed, because I don't want people running around thinking something because, you know, fear can grab you too, yes, and you can hear a podcast like this and all this ending, I that must be my problem. That must be our family's problem.
• 42:21
  Jeff Leake: And and then you start to cower in fear about the devils around every doorway. That's right, rather than understanding that Jesus Christ is so much powerful than any demonic force, and that the moment you declare the name of Jesus Christ, every demon has to flee. Yes, yes. Now you may have, at some point, yielded some ground, and need someone to agree with you, to add some strength to your life, so that you get the freedom. But I don't think we want to to over celebrate demonic power and agree, undervalue the authority of the name of Jesus or the authority of the believer 100% so that people then end up like, Oh, what am I supposed to do?
• 42:58
  Jeff Leake: Yes, for every problem I have that must be a demon, right?
• 43:00
  Jeff Leake: Yes. So, so that's the that's the other side. One side is to ignore that it's an issue at all, which is
• 43:05
  Dave Leake: most of the western church world, yes. And
• 43:09
  Jeff Leake: the other side is to overemphasize it. So if you were to take this away from this approach to ministry, away from you, and say, You're not allowed to do that anymore. Tim, what would happen in take what approach away from me, like the emphasis on freedom and wholeness. Like, if
• 43:26
  Dave Leake: you stop doing deliverance ministry,
• 43:29
  Jeff Leake: if you stop doing freedom and healing ministry, okay, he doesn't like
• 43:33
  Dave Leake: the word deliverance, if you stop people from having an emotional and physical reaction that may or may not be influenced by demons in my proper way to say, don't say, demon might just be emotional in my
• 43:48
  Unknown: context, yeah, oh boy.
• 43:48
  Unknown: If I were like, not to address it, it would be like, I could just, I could just tell you, people would come up to me and just look at me and say, Well, what is it then? Like, something supernatural happened. I'll give you an example this. And this is maybe two examples to kind of like, as you guys were talking, it made me think of these things. So I had a group of friends who are about my age.
• 44:11
  Unknown: The great thing about our church is, like 70% is between the age of 25 and 35 and so a lot of these people are my friends, and a lot of them are first generation Christians, so, like, their whole family, don't know the Lord. Don't follow the Lord for now. So there were like six of them, one one day after our Sunday services, and I came out, and I was really tired, and I was like, All right, hey, what's up, guys? And they were all speaking in their local Chinese dialect, which is Hokkien. I'm like, All right, I don't understand what you're saying.
• 44:40
  Unknown: What are you talking about? And they were like, well, we were just talking about how all of our parents go to the temple to be possessed. And I'm like, what does that mean? And they're like, Yeah, so like, our parents are Buddhist, and one of the ways that you pray as a Buddhist here is that you go to the temple and you ask one of. The spirits to possess you in that moment and give you wisdom on how to raise your children. And I'm like, what is happening?
• 45:04
  Unknown: Like, what are you talking about? And I was like, Okay, so now here's a pastoral moment.
• 45:11
  Unknown: What do I because then the one kid looked at me, who was the most troubled, who started the discussion. He was like, my mom told me to come with her, and the demon was speaking through her to me, and she wanted me to wear this t shirt that had been cursed because it was I'm like, this is, like, Hollywood. Like, I don't know what to tell you, I just preached a sermon on, like, something totally different, and this was really what they were trying to figure out. And I was like, yeah. So he was like, should I wear the t shirt or not? Like, I want to honor my mom, but I'm like, No, I don't think you should wear that T shirt. That's a good one to do.
• 45:43
  Unknown: And so so to take away the freedom and healing, whatever we call it deliverance, or, you know, all those things we just discussed, I think people would still, at the end of the day be like, but it's so in our face, like, I don't even like, how do we not just make this logical?
• 46:05
  Unknown: Which, I don't think that's what they were trying to figure out.
• 46:07
  Unknown: No, right? I think they were trying to say, like, we now know the truth, and we want to see our families set free from this, which, okay, now I'm going to present something, and I don't want to like, if I'm going off track, just go ahead. Just be like, No, we're not going to go there. And if I'm like, super ambivalent
• 46:24
  Jeff Leake: tips, that was really, that was really insightful. I love that story. I have questions, but keep going.
• 46:28
  Jeff Leake: Okay,
• 46:30
  Unknown: you brought up this whole thing about, like, Christians potentially, or anybody, but probably Christians potentially getting sick from demonic activity. Yeah, I might, I might be a little bit observant now in my own personal life, which I've experienced some severe health issues randomly that I've now been healed from, I'm I'm starting to see this like spectrum, that prior to someone's salvation, there are demonic influences trying to ruin their life, trying to take trying to harm them, like, you know, the enemy is trying to steal, kill and destroy. So they are hopeless, right? It's not a sated, yeah?
• 47:10
  Unknown: It's just and that can very much easily turn into, uh, that thing has power, and so now I give it more authority in my life, to the point where it's nearly like they control me. Yeah, that's where I probably think our western mindset is possession.
• 47:24
  Unknown: It's I've now relinquished my life, sure, to this thing that obviously has power when they become a Christian. So my context now is from a Buddh perspective, and I don't, I don't have to tell the whole story, but many times the Buddhists in Indonesia are aware of all these deities, all these spirits, all these like I just told you, that the parents go to the temple and ask this one specific spirit. And I came in contact with a guy who had heard about Jesus. He'd accepted Jesus, but he wasn't ready yet to make Jesus his Lord. He knew the truth, and he wanted the truth, and he wanted to be set free, but he had all these different other lords, sure. And this guy, we prayed for him, and he had invited seven demonic powers into his life, yeah. And it wasn't until that day we were like, you can only have one Lord, because there's only one that can set you free. Yeah? He was like, oh, I want that. I don't want to be controlled anymore. Yeah, I want to have peace. I want to have joy. I want to have authority in my life. And so it took us a while, but one by one, he began with us as we were commanding the demon to leave, he would also say, I don't want this in Jesus name be gone. And that's when we saw him, yeah, set free. Yeah. So it's almost like I'm starting to see maybe, and this is not a hard theology, it's more of an observation. I think to some degree, everybody probably has some kind of demonic influence that's trying to take parts of their life. Like, sure, yeah, destroy them, yeah, those who don't have Christ, they don't have they don't have hope that they're like, they're there's no way that they're going to overcome this. I think the lie that the devil wants us to believe as Christians is that we also have the power when we don't either we have authority, which is totally different than like, Well, I'm a Christian, and so because I'm a Christian, like, get out of here. It's no because Jesus has all power and authority be gone true. And there have been many times in my personal ministry now where demonic things have come up, either my personal health or in other people's experience, that in my personal thoughts and feelings, I'll be like, well, I know the answer to this, and I'm just going to preach them to death and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I've have, I've had to kind of like, tone that down and say, No, we're going to give God the glory right now, yeah, we're going to directly address this through the power of Jesus, not what I know or what I think I have power over.
• 49:52
  Unknown: Yeah, I know that was kind of like, let
• 49:54
  Jeff Leake: me ask you colorful, let's go back to the former story that, yeah, young man who wanted his mom wanted him to work. The demonic t shirt. Yeah, okay, What'd you tell him?
• 50:03
  Unknown: I told the guy, okay, dude, I under he actually had like, two meetings with me on this because he was so worried about not honoring his mom because he moved to Australia.
• 50:11
  Unknown: So he's like, I'm moving to Australia. My mom went to the temple. She has this t shirt that's cursed. I watched her get possessed, like, all these things. I'm like, Dude, this is more than coffee. Like, I'm like, I'm like, chugging it as he's telling me the story. And he's like, I don't know what to do. I want my mom to know the Lord so bad. So he like, openly profess his faith to his mom.
• 50:31
  Unknown: Yeah. He's like, this is not what I believe. I've been set free. He's like, going to town.
• 50:37
  Unknown: But the mom's like, wear the t shirt. And so I'm like, I don't think you can wear the t shirt as much as you're able. Like, this is something that's been dedicated to a power and authority that we know is not in line with the truth. And so I think he ended up not wearing it. It was a big decision, though, because it kind of created a schism between him and his mom, yeah, yeah. Where she was like, you don't want my protection. You don't want this.
• 51:02
  Unknown: You don't want my relationship.
• 51:06
  Unknown: It was a heavy decision for him, but I was like, it's a t shirt, yes, but you now don't want to allow like, you're saying allow this, when
• 51:16
  Dave Leake: the demon talking to your mom is telling and he's like, Well, you it's like, well, why does the demon only to wear the shirt? Like, if it didn't actually matter, it was just, that's what I told him.
• 51:29
  Unknown: I was like, Dude, that you know that's not your mom, right? Yeah, because he was, he was bringing it back to like, well, that's my mom. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure you just told me, like you watched her get possessed, and like the demon was talking to you, so, like, you don't want to obey that, do you? And he's like, No, I don't want to obey that. And I'm like, oh, like, Okay, so there's your answer. Like, don't, don't. You don't have to feel pressure, because that demon also doesn't have authority over you. Yeah, right.
• 51:49
  Unknown: It's going to try to make you think that.
• 51:51
  Dave Leake: So I got, can I, since we only got about 10 more minutes left Max, can I? Can I get a couple of things. So one thing I want to just say is quickly, because I think I'll just answer this. We're
• 52:00
  Jeff Leake: gonna need another episode. Well, we'll see. I think, no, honestly, I think what you share, what you share, Tim is so where you live, and so, you know, it's one thing to have a theology. It's another thing to to have a practice of this. So it's really good to see. Yeah.
• 52:18
  Dave Leake: So what I was gonna quickly unpack it addressed is, you know, for people that are like, What do I do? You know, what protects Christians from the influences of demons?
• 52:26
  Dave Leake: Ephesians six talks all about the armor of God. You know, starting in verse 11, put on the full armor of God so you can take your stand against the devil's schemes, for our struggles, not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
• 52:43
  Dave Leake: Then it lists out the different pieces of the armor of God. But I think, I think the reality is we, if, as Christians, we are staying close to the Holy Spirit, we're surrendering to God where we're not holding any area intentionally of compromise or rebellion in our lives. If we are, you know, if we are in the word like, we don't have anything to fear. In fact, when we walk into a place, I believe, because of the the presence that we carry and the person, yes, spirit, that demons actually tremble at us. And I've had experiences of deliverance personally, where, like, when they look in my eyes, they like, see Jesus, and they freak out, you know, because it's not, it's not me or Tim or you that they're worried about. It's the spirit that we carry the whole authority, right? Yeah. Okay, so I had one more question, and this might be where you're going. Anyway, I wanted to use the last little bit of our time.
• 53:33
  Dave Leake: Can we talk, just so all of us are from Pittsburgh originally?
• 53:36
  Dave Leake: Yeah, no, you know you live and you travel all over. Can we talk to discuss what might be a protocol or a standard operating procedure? If Allison Park church or churches in the United States, we're going to begin to do deliverance ministry. I think that the thing that you want to guard from, and I'll just get that out of the way, some people feel like they get too obsessed with the experience of being set free. It's like, look, just get close to the Holy Spirit. Just pursue Jesus, just just because that will actually get you free.
• 54:07
  Dave Leake: Just by the more you're around him, the more they have to go.
• 54:10
  Dave Leake: But I think if we're talking about as
• 54:13
  Unknown: me, man, was that not me? You're like, the more you're around Tim,
• 54:18
  Dave Leake: him, him.
• 54:19
  Jeff Leake: I was like, I thought you did too.
• 54:22
  Dave Leake: I was like, the more you're around Jesus,
• 54:26
  Unknown: what's up, guys,
• 54:27
  Dave Leake: the more you're around him, Jesus, the more they have to go. But can we just dialog like, what, what would be as ministry leaders, what, what would be a protocol like, how do we talk about this, how we teach this? So,
• 54:42
  Jeff Leake: okay, I think we have been doing some things to attack this and address this for many, many years, but I we don't come at it from a deliverance perspective. We do a freedom in Christ retreat. We call breakthrough weekend. Yeah, there is also Jack ha did one called cleansing stream. I think Bethel has a version of this call. Sozo, okay, so this is actually teaching about spiritual strongholds. It's it's teaching about the places in your life where you can give ground over. It's bitterness, it's addiction, it's appetites, it's generational curses, it's mother, father, wounds, it's shame. So we teach through this seminar every year, and we talk about the open doors to the devil's gaining ownership of some area of your life and harassing you. And we renounce these things, and we pray prayers of confession, and we pray over people. And I would say there is a ton of freedom that happens in those gatherings, but it doesn't necessarily come off as dramatic as the deliverance stories, right? Okay, so I think that that's where you would start.
• 55:45
  Jeff Leake: You know, there's a couple of great books, bondage, breaker, victory over the darkness, by Neil and Anderson, which, if you're interested in a starter place, that's always where my comfort level has been, yeah.
• 55:54
  Jeff Leake: Okay, then we have to be prepared if we teach on it biblically, where the open doors are, and how freedom and healing comes into the life of a Christian, and what your authority is in Jesus. Then when there are more prominent manifestations of demonic power, then we, we go at it. We we act in faith. I don't think we seek it out. I don't think we try to cultivate manifestations, but where they show up in our ministry, then we do as Tim has sort of explained you, you silence the demon, you called the person back to your attention. You do ministry with them, just like you would in any other situation, until they're set free. Yeah, and I think that if we follow that pattern. Now, if your church has no plan for freedom and healing or deliverance, whatever you want to call it, then you probably have a whole bunch of people in your church who are living bound by things they shouldn't be bound with, and not understanding who they really are in Christ, I think if you're an individual, so I'm gonna put the pastor hat on now for a minute and just seal up some concerns I have for people who might be hearing this. If you have worries in your own life, maybe I'm more demonized than I realize. And every morning, when you wake up, do what David just read, get up and say, I renounce every power of darkness in the name of Jesus. I renounce any generational curses that I might not be aware of. Get rid of any trinkets or attachments or books that have anything to do with darkness. Gotta
• 57:24
  Dave Leake: forgive everybody.
• 57:24
  Dave Leake: Then forgive those
• 57:27
  Jeff Leake: who've offended you.
• 57:27
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, it's huge. And surrender yourself to God. God, my life is yours, just like the woman at the temple prayed to the devil, I want to be possessed by you.
• 57:36
  Jeff Leake: Ask, ask for the Holy Spirit to take you. Get baptized in the Holy Spirit. The best thing you can do to be living in freedom is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and activating your your life with the Holy Spirit on a daily basis. And if that's all happening for you, I think you're moving toward a place of freedom and healing. And
• 57:56
  Dave Leake: I think your prayer language also is really effective, yeah, fighting powers of
• 58:00
  Jeff Leake: dark. And maybe if we all do that every day, we don't have to dispute over this question, sure, because we're all living, surrendered to God and and tuned up. Would you add anything to that pastoral advice?
• 58:13
  Unknown: I think for us, like we, we didn't set out to specifically say, like we have a deliverance ministry, but I think what, what I'm finding is that people don't even know that there's an option to do what you just said in my context. So like the people who live in a culture that's dominant, so like when you are of the super minority of people who believe that there is a Holy Spirit, you have no idea that you can't be controlled by these demonic things. It's just like, you can be freeze what you mean? Yeah, they have no idea.
• 58:44
  Unknown: It's just like, oh, that's just the way it's been for for millennia. It's just that these spiritual things happen. And it's almost like, like, laughable. People are like, oh, there's demons everywhere, haha.
• 58:56
  Unknown: And there are weird things that happen. And so we, in conjunction with teaching them what the Word of God says. Then we say, like, okay, when it comes up. Now, because when you preach the Word of God and you preach salvation, I actually think I did listen you guys talk about this, or one, one way or another, when you were talking about Johannes and talked about how his predominant ministry is preaching salvation. Yeah, it's, it's like, I'm here to preach the gospel, and then healing follows. It's like, okay, so Let's preach the gospel. It will reveal all the things in the darkness, and when the darkness now is revealed, that's what we were talking about when you came to visit. It's like, I'm not an expert in any way on any other religion. I don't even know if I'm an expert in Christianity.
• 59:37
  Unknown: All I know is that we live in a place of darkness that we're just like, let's scratch the surface. It's like, it's like a lottery ticket. You're like, that little weird gray thing.
• 59:46
  Unknown: You're like, oh, that's what's under here. And then all this stuff comes up, and then you confront it. I think you're
• 59:52
  Jeff Leake: like, shining a light in a dark room all of a sudden, yeah, see the cockroaches start to move right?
• 59:57
  Jeff Leake: And
• 59:57
  Unknown: I think your advice basically, like, I. Is, like, pick up the flashlight and shine it in your life. Like, this is what I want, and this is what I need, and this is the answer.
• 1:00:05
  Unknown: And, Lord, would you do this in me? I think a lot of people my context don't even know that's possible. Maybe as like, a zinger to the end I would, I would probably venture to wonder if people here want to do that, or if it's just too taboo, or if it's just like, totally like, oh, that's just in other countries that deal with it visibly. Yeah, have that issue here. So I don't really need to wake up in the morning and pray like that. I think we
• 1:00:29
  Dave Leake: don't recognize it.
• 1:00:29
  Dave Leake: But okay, it's not like, well, as long as you live in Western Europe or in America, there's not, there's not really demons there. You know, we're a Christian nation, they can't come over here like, that's clearly not true. They're just as much enough well, they're but they're, they're highly,
• 1:00:44
  Jeff Leake: much more severe when you're going to a temple to ask to be okay, I agree. Then we're when you're online looking at
• 1:00:49
  Dave Leake: pornography. But it's not like there's not demonic strong the actual demons, demonic strongholds, rulers
• 1:00:54
  Jeff Leake: all over. Yeah. So wherever people are that God loves them, and wherever there are people that God loves, there are demonic spirits that want to destroy Can
• 1:01:03
  Unknown: I share, like, a one minute story of like, how this is applicable, not in like, a going to the temple, asking for a demon to possess me? Thing, there was a girl in our church who became a Christian. She had formerly been Buddhist, gave that up, came to the Lord, asked him to save her all that stuff.
• 1:01:18
  Unknown: But then she still had, like, decks of tarot cards, yeah, like tons of paper cards. And she was like, I'm pretty sure these are bad. I don't know. I think it's I shouldn't have. Something's telling me. I'm like, That's the Holy Spirit. She's like, something's telling me I shouldn't have these. And she's like, I want to get rid of them.
• 1:01:34
  Unknown: I'm like, that's a great way now to say, Lord, I'm surrendering my life and all these things to you that don't give You glory. I brought them to my house. I have a little fire pit in my front yard. We burn them for like, two hours. Like, they're just paper, but I actually had to get a little can of WD 40 and, like, super impose the fire so, like, because they wouldn't burn, because they wouldn't burn, and they were just like, like, the same consistency. Yeah, it was kind of wild. And I remember, like, my my father in law was actually with me, just visiting, like, coincidentally, and he looked at me, and he's like, you know, you can write that WD, 40 off in your budget. And I'm like, okay, cool. I'm like, a spirit tool, but, but it's like, even something as basic as a piece of paper, it's like, we're not going to the temple. There's still something taking ground in my life, yeah, but I know I want to be set free from this. And
• 1:02:24
  Dave Leake: that's, that's a in Acts 19, they do that. Acts 19, they burn a lot of practice solar surgery, brought their scrolls together, burn them publicly. Yeah, I think that if you do have tarot, tarot cards or witchcraft items or boards, burn them.
• 1:02:36
  Unknown: Give us a call. We'll burn them. Yeah,
• 1:02:38
  Dave Leake: Tim's got plenty.
• 1:02:38
  Dave Leake: WD, I guess the one last thing I'd add that I think is actually powerful. When we're talking about Johannes as an example, one thing he definitely does that I think is biblical, is sometimes to go directly after them as you're preaching the gospel. So he'll preach about Jesus, and then he'll say, you know, Jesus far more powerful than any power of the devil out there. So if you have any of these kind of things I come at, you know, right now, I come against the powers of every demonic activity, every, you know, everything of sexual and everything of witchcraft. And often it's like, as he's calling them out, that the manifestations occur. Yeah, I think there's something powerful, even in our context, about saying, you know, and I come against every demonic power of mental disorders, of depression, of you know, of cancer, again,
• 1:03:23
  Jeff Leake: not that every time that happens, it's, it's as a result of a demon. Of course, it's just that that's one explanation. It
• 1:03:30
  Dave Leake: is one source. It is one and you know what? The great thing is, if what's causing one of those things is demonic, it's like, the easiest thing to get free, like, yeah, like, it's not like, Oh, this is gonna be a process. Well, if it's a demon, boom. Like, there we go. It's done, and now you're free from it. That's great in some ways.
• 1:03:45
  Dave Leake: It's actually like, I think it's like, easier and better, because it's just such a clear process of getting set free, yeah, as opposed to something actually, physically
• 1:03:55
  Jeff Leake: more emotional that you're carrying around, right?
• 1:03:57
  Jeff Leake: You have to get healed from, yeah. I think there is one more thing I would add. So I said that pastorally, get up every morning, renounce the darkness, put on the armor of God, surrender to God's purpose, forgive who you need to forgive, right? All of those things. But then if you find yourself stuck and you feel like something's still not right, then ask someone to pray for you. That's good. Come and come and find one of us and say, Hey, I don't know what's happening. I just really want to be free. And so that's part of what that is, confess your sins to one another, pray for one another. You can heal.
• 1:04:28
  Jeff Leake: There's an authority that comes with agreement as well. And so maybe Dave, it might be good to have an episode on dreams and visions. Yeah, because there's a great thing that happened for me with demonic thing that came out of a vision or dream that I had at one point in time. And I know we don't have time to tell that whole story, but okay, um, yeah, that's a tease for for the future.
• 1:04:52
  Dave Leake: That is great. Yeah, it's it'd be fun. I think dreams and visions from God, some some things with prophecy aren't talked about as much as we could. So with. Okay, so
• 1:05:00
  Jeff Leake: one last thought before we let Tim go here.
• 1:05:03
  Jeff Leake: Thanks for being on the program.
• 1:05:03
  Jeff Leake: We appreciate you here, guys, one of the things that I'm praying for as a pastor at Allison Park churches, I would like to see in my last season of ministry here, 30 people called into full time missions, so people that, just like you grew up here and then you felt the call, and now you're serving overseas. I want to see 30 people come out of Allison Park.
• 1:05:25
  Jeff Leake: So you represent, for me, kind of a seed of what I want to see a harvest of coming up in the future. So there are already two or three that have come out of the recent ministry school class that dream. And so thanks for what you do, Tim. We're going to be given to some things with Tim, with Kingdom builders, because they're getting ready to move into a brand new space right now. Seat about 200 or so.
• 1:05:50
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, that's right. Get ready to occupy space on the sixth floor, or in on a floor, in a sixth floor, yeah, we'll be in there, and you'll have an auditorium for about 500 people. Yeah.
• 1:06:01
  Jeff Leake: Currently they do four services a weekend, and have about 900 or so, yeah, pushing 900 Yeah. And so their church is getting ready to explode. We're going to be taking a team over there eventually to do some things with them. So they're planting one church a year for 10 years.
• 1:06:12
  Jeff Leake: That's one of the visions. So we're, we're so if you're listen, if you listen to this, and you're a pastor and you're looking for a good missionary to support Tim Pollack as your guy.
• 1:06:20
  Jeff Leake: I'm telling you, they're doing some amazing stuff. So cool,
• 1:06:25
  Dave Leake: yeah. Well, thank you, Tim again, yeah. And thank you for everybody else who's joining us again for 100 and first episode. And as always, you know, we would just love to ask for your help. You can actually help us as well, if you could. You know, if you're on YouTube, you can like and subscribe. That helps us to get the word out. You know, you can share it on social media or, obviously, you can leave us a kind five star review whatever platform you listen to, and that's just a helpful way for us to kind of share what we're doing and spread the word. So would love for you to be a part of that, if you wouldn't mind.
• 1:06:56
  Dave Leake: So anyway, thanks again for joining us. We'll see you guys again next, next time you.