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With Great Power #365... 22 Panels with Spencer Ackerman · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

0:00
Tad Eggleston: Good morning.
0:01
Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to 22 Panels. My guest tonight, returning for the third time. You don't quite get your jacket yet, our fictional jackets for five-timers. You get in there, Spencer, is a Pulitzer Prize-winning
0:15
Tad Eggleston: reporter and fantastic comic book writer, Spencer Ackerman, who is here to pitch
0:22
Tad Eggleston: And tell us about his first.
0:25
Tad Eggleston: creator-owned work. Nobody escapes the dialectic, which I've read issue 1, like, 4 or 5 times now, including…
0:33
Tad Eggleston: earlier today, and it's amazing. I've been telling people to order it forever. If, for whatever reason, they didn't order it, go to your comic shop and beg. It's out November 4th. Apparently, they didn't want to put it out before elections for… I don't know what reason, like.
0:50
Tad Eggleston: I would have put it out the week before the election, but that's just me. The day after is also good and in the mind. How's it going, Spencer?
0:57
Spencer Ackerman: What an introduction, Tad, thanks so much, it's great to be, back again, I'm coming for that belt.
1:03
Tad Eggleston: Coming for that belt? I mean, you got a little bit of catching up to do. Shelly Bond is at 9. Got a couple of people at 8.
1:11
Spencer Ackerman: Alright, I don't count myself out yet.
1:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, no, you can get there. You can get there. I mean, the problem is, they're all alive and keep coming back, so, you know…
1:20
Tad Eggleston: There's a chase.
1:22
Tad Eggleston: But
1:23
Tad Eggleston: you know, I mean, you have other prizes. The most appearances on 22 Panels is actually a relatively minor one. But if you want to start a book club, now that you're… now that you're not writing a book.
1:37
Tad Eggleston: I mean, you missed our first round of the, the.
1:42
Tad Eggleston: Lazarus Book Club, but I feel like we could revisit it.
1:47
Spencer Ackerman: Huh, where are you with that one right now?
1:49
Tad Eggleston: We went through them all.
1:51
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, you went through the whole thing, okay.
1:53
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, no, we'd have to revisit it, but… or just start up when the new ones come, as soon as Michael Lark is healthy again.
2:00
Spencer Ackerman: Could be, as long as…
2:02
Tad Eggleston: He's… Go ahead.
2:05
Spencer Ackerman: No, no, no, just his health is paramount. I'm happy to wait as long.
2:10
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
2:10
Spencer Ackerman: I feel like those of us who love that book
2:14
Spencer Ackerman: Care very much about, Michael's health as we do about Greg's, as we do about everyone involved, and
2:20
Spencer Ackerman: have waited so long that it's marginal at this point. Right. We're here for the long haul, whenever that is. We were lucky to be on this ride in the first place.
2:35
Tad Eggleston: Right.
2:35
Spencer Ackerman: That's certainly how I feel.
2:37
Tad Eggleston: I was lucky enough to finally get to talk to Greg.
2:40
Tad Eggleston: Incorrect.
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Spencer Ackerman: Incredible person.
2:42
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he is. What I loved…
2:45
Tad Eggleston: Because I had to ask him the question. The first time you printed a Spencer Ackerman letter, did you know who you were printing a letter from? He's like… And when I found out, I was mortified.
2:59
Tad Eggleston: So…
3:01
Spencer Ackerman: I'm happy to say I have two in that, in that.
3:05
Tad Eggleston: You do?
3:06
Spencer Ackerman: And then, when my first book, Reign of Terror, came out, was featured in, the back matter, with Greg's recommendation, in…
3:19
Spencer Ackerman: What I could, you know, I've told him this, you know, this was to date.
3:25
Spencer Ackerman: The best issue of my favorite comic book series?
3:29
Spencer Ackerman: So, that was a tremendous moment for me.
3:33
Tad Eggleston: which.
3:33
Spencer Ackerman: we.
3:34
Tad Eggleston: Which is why I mean, I discovered you because of that comic.
3:37
Tad Eggleston: I literally ordered your book.
3:40
Tad Eggleston: While.
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Spencer Ackerman: Right.
3:41
Tad Eggleston: Still holding that issue.
3:43
Spencer Ackerman: Thank you, Greg and Michael.
3:44
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, I ordered your book while I was.
3:48
Spencer Ackerman: Still hearing that.
3:49
Tad Eggleston: Holding the issue. So that's the whole circle there.
3:54
Spencer Ackerman: Incredible.
3:55
Tad Eggleston: And then I think it was, Salad and Ahmed that turned me on to your newsletter.
4:02
Spencer Ackerman: also.
4:03
Tad Eggleston: Because he mentioned it, yeah, he mentioned it in his newsletter.
4:06
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, someone else I have a great deal of admiration for and gratitude for, for how he's helped me in comics.
4:13
Tad Eggleston: So, I haven't met him yet. He's on my list still. I've heard only good things, and I love his work.
4:20
Spencer Ackerman: Great guy, yeah.
4:21
Tad Eggleston: So, give me the front counter pitch for Nobody Escapes the Dialectic.
4:27
Spencer Ackerman: So, this is a book that's intended to speak to people for whom.
4:35
Spencer Ackerman: the world outside their window, is unacceptable.
4:40
Spencer Ackerman: And… Wish to have their comic books.
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Spencer Ackerman: Confront that world really directly, and… With a thoroughness, and with… Rigor and an unflinchingness.
4:59
Spencer Ackerman: that… Sometimes, comics can shy away from, in the interest of.
5:06
Spencer Ackerman: Mass Appeal, and, other, corporate reasons.
5:13
Spencer Ackerman: This is a book that starts out
5:19
Spencer Ackerman: You know, when you see the cover, you see someone, laid out dead.
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Spencer Ackerman: bearing the initials of a three-letter winter-themed government agency, in this case, Snow.
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Spencer Ackerman: with People around him from that agency looking to figure out.
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Spencer Ackerman: What has happened, and what has happened is, is someone has very deliberately methodically Hunted, overpowered, and killed.
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Spencer Ackerman: A field agent a field officer of this incredibly violent government agency.
6:09
Spencer Ackerman: And now that agency is left with
6:12
Spencer Ackerman: panoplies of options for how to respond to this act, whether to respond to it narrowly or whether to
6:23
Spencer Ackerman: hold… Entire community is responsible for it.
6:27
Spencer Ackerman: And so this is a story about,
6:32
Spencer Ackerman: resistance to… the kinds of…
6:38
Spencer Ackerman: systems that were birthed by the war on terror, which is the thing that I write about
6:47
Spencer Ackerman: in my day job as a journalist.
6:50
Spencer Ackerman: And when the vigilante featured in the book kills the…
7:00
Spencer Ackerman: Snow agent, that he kills, that special naturalization operations or snow.
7:07
Spencer Ackerman: He throws down a playing card, in this case the Ace of Spades, and written on it are the words, no one escapes the dialectic.
7:17
Spencer Ackerman: Which is… a multi-layered meaning.
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Spencer Ackerman: That this book, for however long it lasts, will turn to again and again and again
7:30
Spencer Ackerman: To harvest meaning from, sometimes destabilizing earlier understandings of that term and its applications.
7:41
Tad Eggleston: And there you go, using that word, destabilize. Such a national security reporter's word.
7:49
Spencer Ackerman: You know, it's, it's, cause it's a concept that I think.
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Spencer Ackerman: It carries a lot of possibility.
7:58
Tad Eggleston: does.
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Spencer Ackerman: doesn't just mean one thing, but it does convey that it's something being done to you. It's something that's taking, like, really important decisions about how you live away from you. And…
8:15
Spencer Ackerman: You can react different in different matters to different
8:20
Spencer Ackerman: Ways in which the concept is applied, but it does have that in common.
8:28
Tad Eggleston: I'm not gonna ask you where this came from, because I think, anybody who honestly doesn't know where the story came from, A, can go read Forever Wars, B, should, like.
8:38
Tad Eggleston: Look out their window a little bit more often.
8:42
Tad Eggleston: But tell me about the journey of pitching the story, and shaping it into a comic book form, and finding
8:51
Tad Eggleston: Finding the people who are willing to go on this journey with you.
8:56
Spencer Ackerman: I came into New York Comic Con last year,
9:03
Spencer Ackerman: Kind of dejected. I had hoped to be on Iron Man for longer than I was, and that wasn't to be. And I didn't really have…
9:16
Spencer Ackerman: You know, work for hire companies, you know, beating down my door, and so I had this moment where I have to think.
9:24
Spencer Ackerman: you know, I've…
9:27
Spencer Ackerman: you know, done the thing that I've wanted to do since I was a kid. Like, I have published comic book work, at both Marvel and DC.
9:35
Spencer Ackerman: And maybe I don't, you know, I should be grateful that, you know, that happened. I am grateful that that happened.
9:40
Spencer Ackerman: But that could be it. And…
9:45
Spencer Ackerman: I didn't want to go out like that.
9:48
Spencer Ackerman: And so I started thinking to myself, rather than… you know.
9:55
Spencer Ackerman: see what, you know, possibly I could…
9:59
Spencer Ackerman: do for one of the existing comic companies, one thing that I haven't tried yet.
10:06
Spencer Ackerman: Is to develop a creator-owned concept.
10:09
Spencer Ackerman: And… I think… One of the things that… Could be best accomplished.
10:19
Spencer Ackerman: in that format, would be… To kind of press.
10:25
Spencer Ackerman: Political critique in comics.
10:28
Spencer Ackerman: kind of further than, than where it's… than where it's been. And I do think, just to get something out of the way, I think it has been, over the last several years, moving in a very positive direction, after, some, I think.
10:45
Spencer Ackerman: Shall we say reactionary pressures?
10:47
Spencer Ackerman: And I, I absolutely, you know, don't want to position this book
10:56
Spencer Ackerman: against anyone else's. I'm telling a story that I want to tell, and that comes out of a lot of experiences that I've had, that I've been adjacent to, and…
11:11
Spencer Ackerman: Reflects an approach that… I want to, kind of, provide as… .
11:21
Spencer Ackerman: A calling card for how I see comics and how I want to approach them.
11:26
Spencer Ackerman: So this book will have a number of.
11:33
Spencer Ackerman: Like, visual signifiers. There'll be things that we do that
11:40
Spencer Ackerman: Will be like us working to make this book feel unique, or it, let me say it like this instead.
11:49
Spencer Ackerman: there'll be… there'll be things we'll be returning to so this book feels distinct, so it feels very much like itself. So, for instance, the first 8-page scene of this book, in which the events that I've just described to you
12:04
Spencer Ackerman: unfold this inciting event for the series, for the first arc, that's all done silently.
12:13
Tad Eggleston: Right.
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Spencer Ackerman: we're going to do that in each issue of this arc. We will be returning to that in subsequent arcs of the series. We're going to use that silence in a very particular and deliberate way
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Spencer Ackerman: And that will showcase the incredible storytelling ability of Antonio Fusso.
12:39
Spencer Ackerman: Who we'll get to in just a moment, because to go back to your original question about how this was developed, I kind of took that
12:48
Spencer Ackerman: idea Wrote it up into a one-sheet pitch.
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Spencer Ackerman: That… you know, had As the kernel of the idea, the scene that we've discussed.
13:01
Spencer Ackerman: And…
13:04
Spencer Ackerman: said to myself, I'm just gonna spend New York Comic Con seeing how many editors I could get this in front of.
13:11
Spencer Ackerman: And I'm very grateful to say that Sebastian Gerner at Boom Was, great… was… was…
13:23
Spencer Ackerman: kind enough To take a meeting.
13:27
Spencer Ackerman: From someone he had no idea about. That was, to take it back to the Lazarus family, the work of his friend and Lazarus editor, Alejandro Arbona.
13:41
Spencer Ackerman: So, I really want to thank Alejandro.
13:44
Spencer Ackerman: And… I brought it to Sebastian, and… really quickly.
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Spencer Ackerman: I'm very grateful to say, this concept
13:57
Spencer Ackerman: Really clicked with him, it was something.
14:00
Spencer Ackerman: That he felt… Would…
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Spencer Ackerman: Reflect the kind of comics that.
14:08
Spencer Ackerman: He wanted Boom to be known for, so Boom has been, really, really supportive of this book. I'm very grateful, to them for it. This is, you know, a book.
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Spencer Ackerman: That is, kind of.
14:25
Spencer Ackerman: You know, likely to generate some controversy and they haven't run away from that and they've let this book.
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Spencer Ackerman: be what it is. I'm very grateful for that, and, perhaps if there's one, element of gratitude that stands paramount, it's that, Sebastian
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Spencer Ackerman: Recruited Antonio, the artist Antonio Fuso.
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Spencer Ackerman: For this project. Antonio has, just a tremendous evocative
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Spencer Ackerman: Abstract, but, very, very, sensual style.
15:06
Spencer Ackerman: There's a visceralness to his drawing.
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Spencer Ackerman: and to his storytelling that suits this book perfectly. He is…
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Spencer Ackerman: Created, its visual grammar, in a manner that would never have occurred to me.
15:25
Spencer Ackerman: And among the things that I love, is seeing him Take ownership of the book.
15:36
Spencer Ackerman: You know, not just in terms of design, not just in terms of storytelling, but he's introduced… he's created a character that we will introduce in Issue 2.
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Spencer Ackerman: That I think is going to be,
15:54
Spencer Ackerman: Among those who read this book and stick with it, a fan favorite. Nice. So, we'll… we'll be returning to this character a lot. Also, a character that didn't occur to me.
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Spencer Ackerman: Sometime… You know, I knew from the start that…
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Spencer Ackerman: outside of the title character who we're going to leave mysterious for a while.
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Spencer Ackerman: The book would focus on.
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Spencer Ackerman: people inside the agency, Snow.
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Spencer Ackerman: Who have clashing visions of what its purpose is, who have clashing agendas, for what they want, the agency to target, and…
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Spencer Ackerman: The clash between these characters.
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Spencer Ackerman: Would be, like, a load-bearing pillar Of the book.
17:01
Spencer Ackerman: So, you know, we come to the book, at a certain time, in which…
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Spencer Ackerman: You know, our long-standing, veteran character, veteran snow official.
17:18
Spencer Ackerman: is in a moment of career transition, and there is on the rise a new breed, a new generation.
17:29
Spencer Ackerman: of a Snow operative that is far more of a paramilitary that comes in from the outside and is winning power struggles to bolt itself onto Snow.
17:49
Spencer Ackerman: And the relationship between these two currents within the book, which is, you know, inspired by a lot of stuff.
18:02
Spencer Ackerman: That I've seen, covering military and intelligence agencies and homeland security agencies and, you know.
18:09
Tad Eggleston: I was gonna say, I have no idea.
18:10
Spencer Ackerman: law enforcement.
18:11
Tad Eggleston: came from.
18:11
Spencer Ackerman: You know, for a very long time is going to kind of play out and is going to look at.
18:19
Spencer Ackerman: you know, How this agency appears.
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Spencer Ackerman: to people inside of it, and what relationship those varying perspectives have with the way that people who are in its crosshairs experience it. The last part of the book
18:40
Spencer Ackerman: That came to me, was… You know, thinking that…
18:46
Spencer Ackerman: If we also need to see the effects of this agency on the people.
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Spencer Ackerman: That it targets, then we need also to see what… People who have to…
18:59
Spencer Ackerman: live with it in their communities have to deal with, and how they see it, and how they interact with it. And so, that made me, think that a way of portraying that would be to show
19:15
Spencer Ackerman: a community resilience group chat, that assembles to kind of organize an area that is prone to snow activity, and what that looks like. And I kind of realized that
19:33
Spencer Ackerman: Especially for a book that is going to, you know, play…
19:39
Spencer Ackerman: with Marxist theory, like dialectical materialism and historical materialism, that we also needed some
19:52
Spencer Ackerman: like, deranged elements and some humor elements. So the… the group chat, for operational security reasons, insists on
20:05
Spencer Ackerman: Participants adopting a pseudonym that's a mashup of a NBA or WNBA player and an animal.
20:16
Spencer Ackerman: So, we start off with, characters.
20:22
Spencer Ackerman: like Shea Aquis Salamander, which I assure you I know you're not a basketball person Tad I assure you that's an immaculate joke that that that could.
20:35
Tad Eggleston: I believe you.
20:36
Spencer Ackerman: And, those characters, came to be some of my favorite creations in the book, some of my favorite interactions, some, like, real opportunities to challenge, a lot of different perspectives.
20:54
Spencer Ackerman: That will appear in the book. And we're gonna Go back to that well.
21:01
Spencer Ackerman: Again and again and again, and that was in large part
21:06
Spencer Ackerman: Because of all of the conversations over the last year that Antonio
21:12
Spencer Ackerman: And Sebastian and I, along with,
21:17
Spencer Ackerman: Brad Simpson, our colorist, Jody Troutman, our letterer, and Maya Bollinger, our assistant editor, have had with me. I'm very, very grateful for everyone involved in this book.
21:31
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I think…
21:32
Spencer Ackerman: something…
21:33
Spencer Ackerman: That, you know, I would understand, people turning down, into something that they've taken investment in. I really appreciate that.
21:43
Tad Eggleston: No, you… first of all, even without knowing all of the references, I loved the naming conventions and had so much fun with the little war going on between
21:55
Tad Eggleston: between how the names were done, first names, last names, etc. I thought that was brilliant, and brought a…
22:07
Tad Eggleston: Much needed levity.
22:09
Tad Eggleston: I think… I think that, one of the beauties of comics is you can bring levity without actually, lessening the gravity.
22:18
Tad Eggleston: In a way that's hard to do in prose or film.
22:23
Tad Eggleston: So the gravity of the book got to remain, but there got to be a little bit of humor in there.
22:28
Tad Eggleston: And that, I think.
22:31
Tad Eggleston: It was definitely important in the first issue, and I can only imagine that it will become more important as we go along and get to know people and care about them.
22:38
Spencer Ackerman: I think that it's important that, this book.
22:42
Spencer Ackerman: be deranged when it needs to be deranged. There are deranging elements of the world, there are deranging elements
22:50
Spencer Ackerman: of this book, and we shouldn't deny that. You know, I don't want this book to not be fun. I think this book canon needs to be fun if it's going to accomplish what it's accomplishing.
23:05
Tad Eggleston: But then, I have to just, like, I'm… so happy that it was Sebastian that you paired with. Sebastian is…
23:16
Tad Eggleston: For my money, one of the… one of the great modern tastemakers between his work at TKO and Ghost Flying Press and the stuff that he does at Boom. He reminds me a lot of the Vertigo editors of old, where he just seems to find those things that deserve to be there.
23:35
Spencer Ackerman: It's been very gratifying that someone with Sebastian's resume took to this book so quickly, took ownership of it and has been.
23:50
Spencer Ackerman: You know, diligent, you know, especially given everything else that he has to work on, in shaping it to be the best version of itself.
24:00
Tad Eggleston: He also wrote one of my favorite all-ages books in Scales and Scoundrels, which if you haven't passed along to your children, you should. Fantastic all-ages.
24:11
Tad Eggleston: Sword and Sorcery. And Antonio Fuso is also an inspired choice, you know? I already know his work from
24:19
Tad Eggleston: He did a book called Survival Fetish with Patrick Kindlin.
24:24
Tad Eggleston: God… what?
24:26
Tad Eggleston: 8 years ago?
24:30
Tad Eggleston: And then more recently, I loved the book that he did with, I just pulled it up.
24:36
Tad Eggleston: Just pull it up so that I could remember the name of the artist, or the writer.
24:41
Tad Eggleston: He did a book.
24:44
Tad Eggleston: with Ray Fox at… Mad Cave called.
24:48
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, very cool.
24:49
Tad Eggleston: that dealt with, Like old Russian intelligence.
24:56
Tad Eggleston: So, so between his two books, he's already done some work that I feel like fits into this. So, yeah.
25:04
Spencer Ackerman: I, you know, he's… he's fantastic. He's added a tremendous amount of texture, to the project. He took to its themes, preter naturally. You know, I love the fact that I have a Roman comrade.
25:23
Spencer Ackerman: Working on this book with me,
25:26
Spencer Ackerman: I have a very good friend in journalism.
25:29
Spencer Ackerman: who…
25:31
Spencer Ackerman: Grew up for part of his life in Italy, and lives and dies by the,
25:39
Spencer Ackerman: Roman left-wing soccer team Roma.
25:43
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
25:44
Spencer Ackerman: which has…
25:45
Tad Eggleston: I didn't know that soccer teams could be right and left wing.
25:49
Spencer Ackerman: So, yeah, so in…
25:51
Tad Eggleston: Oh.
25:52
Spencer Ackerman: In Europe, there is, a different political coloration, to sports fandom, than exists in America.
26:02
Spencer Ackerman: And there is, accordingly, a right-wing
26:09
Spencer Ackerman: Roman soccer team, like a, like an explicitly fascist team called Wazio.
26:15
Spencer Ackerman: and Romo-Lazio matches, they play in the same stadium, which is the Olympico, built by Mussolini.
26:23
Spencer Ackerman: So, like, this is an incredible thing, but, like, I just bring this up to say, like, I was, you know, after
26:29
Spencer Ackerman: You know, hearing so much about this from this very good friend of mine, I was
26:36
Spencer Ackerman: you know, shocked and thrilled that it turned out to have some, like, practical application in team building for No One Escapes the Dialectic, because we have an artist who's also a Roma fan, who is deeply invested.
26:51
Spencer Ackerman: In not just this legacy, but this political struggle.
26:58
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
26:58
Spencer Ackerman: I, I, I love, I love that, too.
27:01
Tad Eggleston: I… you know, it works for me. I… I love anytime… Anytime comics do anything…
27:11
Tad Eggleston: Well, really, anything. I don't know if you've noticed that about me. I just like comics, Spencer. I like them. I like them even more when I feel like they relate to the world or have lessons to tell, but I like them when they're just fun as well.
27:26
Tad Eggleston: But,
27:27
Spencer Ackerman: This book is betting that there are
27:30
Spencer Ackerman: Lots of people like you,
27:34
Tad Eggleston: There are.
27:34
Spencer Ackerman: You know, like seeing their comics,
27:40
Spencer Ackerman: Really take on, the…
27:44
Spencer Ackerman: You know, almost agonizing challenges, that they, you know, are seeing unfold, if not necessarily right now to them, to the communities that they care about.
27:58
Spencer Ackerman: And I want this book to be able to speak to that, to channel that, and to offer, I hope, a kind of catharsis that many of us may not otherwise obtain.
28:12
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. No, I mean, that's the other thing that I love about comics. I mean, whatever… whatever pressures there happen to be from time to time, and certainly if you're…
28:24
Tad Eggleston: at the bigger companies, there's often a tighter leash, but every time I was working in a comic shop and somebody's like, oh, why won't they get the politics out of comics? I'm sitting there going.
28:35
Tad Eggleston: What comics have you been reading?
28:37
Tad Eggleston: You know that Captain America hit Hitler.
28:40
Tad Eggleston: before we were in, like, 6 months before Pearl Harbor is when Pat… Captain America punched Hitler. And Action Comics number 1 has Superman going after a corrupt senator.
28:53
Spencer Ackerman: And Superman number two, he goes after war profiteers. Right. Which I love. However, however.
29:03
Spencer Ackerman: I want to say a couple things to, you know, the person who has that perspective.
29:09
Spencer Ackerman: Umm.
29:11
Spencer Ackerman: I… you know… Not in every case, but I think in a number of cases.
29:17
Spencer Ackerman: of people who say like, we got to get the politics out of comics.
29:20
Spencer Ackerman: I think what that… Might also reflect, again, not in every case, but in some cases, is that…
29:29
Spencer Ackerman: When the comics of their, their youth or the comics that they, they imprint on.
29:35
Spencer Ackerman: Particularly if they're, you know.
29:38
Spencer Ackerman: you know, something like my age. I'm 46. So, you know, they might be talking about comics from the 80s, or, you know, perhaps the 70s, or the early 90s, or something like that. You know, at this point, the 90s, or even the 2000s, given how old that I am.
29:54
Spencer Ackerman: What they might be expressing is that the comics back then that they recall and that they imprinted on.
30:02
Spencer Ackerman: Incorporated the politics in such a way that it felt.
30:08
Spencer Ackerman: Invisible in the way that like we don't notice the air that we breathe, the fish don't notice, you know, that they're swimming around in water,
30:16
Tad Eggleston: Right.
30:17
Spencer Ackerman: I have enough equanimity for that perspective that I want to kind of treat that perspective as
30:25
Spencer Ackerman: With, with a level of respect.
30:28
Spencer Ackerman: that will cash itself out in terms of like a challenge to myself as a creator. At the same time.
30:36
Spencer Ackerman: This isn't gonna be that book at all. So…
30:40
Tad Eggleston: you.
30:41
Spencer Ackerman: You know, I want to say that
30:44
Spencer Ackerman: I think it's okay. If we start out from the perspective that, like not every book is for every reader. That's cool.
30:51
Tad Eggleston: That's true, absolutely.
30:52
Spencer Ackerman: If this is not…
30:54
Spencer Ackerman: what you're here, in comics for, you know, go find that, and I wish you the best. This is for a segment of comic readers that is here for specifically this thing.
31:08
Spencer Ackerman: And perhaps feels like it's harder to get this itch scratched than it might be.
31:18
Tad Eggleston: A, I think that.
31:19
Spencer Ackerman: signal-to-contact.
31:20
Tad Eggleston: that segment of comic readers is relatively large. I've been pitching this book at the smaller independent shops that I know, which is also why I'm glad that it's coming out through PRH, because everybody's got a PRH account.
31:33
Tad Eggleston: Because they had it even before.
31:36
Tad Eggleston: Diamond fell apart, because if you get graphic novels or whatnot, like.
31:42
Tad Eggleston: There… there's stuff that PRH has that… that Diamond never had.
31:47
Tad Eggleston: If you're a bookstore, you want a PRH account, whereas… whereas I know lots of… lots of indie shops that still haven't gotten Lunar accounts. So it worked out well in terms of your… your… I think your target audience will be in as many possible stores as it can be.
32:05
Tad Eggleston: And yeah.
32:09
Spencer Ackerman: I.
32:10
Tad Eggleston: Everybody I talk up to is excited.
32:13
Spencer Ackerman: Well, thank you very much. I find it… An amazing coincidence that.
32:19
Spencer Ackerman: the… the book that I just finished writing, the one without pictures, the one that's, about, a member of Al-Qaeda who becomes one of the people that the U.S. tortures the most in the CIA black sites and at Guantanamo Bay, and also the story of his father, and
32:36
Spencer Ackerman: What it was like to be separated from, his son as a disappeared person for so long.
32:41
Spencer Ackerman: Is also being published by Penguin.
32:44
Spencer Ackerman: So, there were occasional calls with the…
32:50
Spencer Ackerman: Boom Penguin Random House side, that, the Penguin Press side didn't know about until kind of later, until…
33:03
Spencer Ackerman: I did not actually know
33:06
Spencer Ackerman: PRH's intended publication date for my second book.
33:13
Spencer Ackerman: I learned that on a marketing call with the boom side of PRH, where.
33:20
Tad Eggleston: were.
33:20
Spencer Ackerman: trying to figure out like in terms of market planning like what do we need to deconflict and I said well I do have another book that's going to be published next year I don't know I know it'll be in the spring but I don't know exactly when and they're like oh wait we can just pull this up and that's how I learned when they within.
33:38
Tad Eggleston: Two days before my birthday, so, I mean, thank you for the birthday present, but also, since I can tell it's gonna be a tough read, and I'm gonna want to read it immediately, if you slip me a galley ahead of time, I won't be upset.
33:52
Spencer Ackerman: Okay.
33:53
Tad Eggleston: Don't know if I'm gonna actually want to be reading it up.
33:56
Spencer Ackerman: That's pretty doable.
34:01
Spencer Ackerman: All I can tell you with that one is it is the first piece of,
34:09
Spencer Ackerman: war on terror journalism that I've done where I've known it had a happy ending.
34:15
Tad Eggleston: Well, that's good.
34:18
Tad Eggleston: Because I've watched you write it through your… Through your newsletter, and…
34:24
Tad Eggleston: And I've seen the pain that the process has been, so I'm gonna have to remind myself as I read it, I'm certain.
34:32
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, I mean, this is a book that, you know, this is a book that's about torture. This is a book that's about radicalization. This is a book that's about dehumanization. This is a book about.
34:45
Spencer Ackerman: a family experiencing one of its worst nightmares. It's a story about untrustworthy
34:56
Spencer Ackerman: Security agencies that are willing to embrace
35:01
Spencer Ackerman: The most extreme forms of depravity, and justify them.
35:07
Spencer Ackerman: And… not draw distinctions
35:12
Spencer Ackerman: between people, including between fathers and sons, who are separated by, among other things, their views on America.
35:22
Spencer Ackerman: so… It was a lot to write. I'm hoping that
35:32
Spencer Ackerman: The final product does the story justice, because I think, you know.
35:39
Spencer Ackerman: I know this is very off topic from No One Escapes the Dialectic. It is indeed.
35:45
Tad Eggleston: isn't.
35:45
Spencer Ackerman: I'm only one person, it just so happens.
35:48
Tad Eggleston: And that's why it's not.
35:49
Spencer Ackerman: things, but, you know, that is… A story that, inevitably.
35:59
Spencer Ackerman: Influenced this comic as well.
36:02
Spencer Ackerman: And so there… there are a number of… of things that
36:07
Spencer Ackerman: I'm still dealing with and processing about the book, and about the story that it tells, and about, you know, what it says about the history that it documents, and the society that
36:20
Spencer Ackerman: Did the things that it did.
36:23
Spencer Ackerman: And among the places where I'll be reckoning with that in various ways, shapes, and forms will be No One Escapes the Dialectic. It is a title I chose extremely deliberately. The title of the book is the critique of the book.
36:42
Spencer Ackerman: And it will be,
36:46
Spencer Ackerman: referred to endlessly throughout the book from different perspectives, often retroactively challenging ones that we present earlier.
36:59
Tad Eggleston: So, the last time we talked, you just…
37:02
Tad Eggleston: Wrap… and you just hit on this some, but last time we talked, you just… wrapped…
37:10
Tad Eggleston: writing your Iron Man run, and you were deep into, I think.
37:15
Tad Eggleston: the second or third round of rewrites on The Disappeared. You were kind of lamenting that you weren't gonna have the… that the Iron Man had been kind of your release when you needed to get away.
37:28
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah.
37:29
Tad Eggleston: through some stuff. So how quickly were you able to start working on No One Escapes the Dialectic, and was it also able to be that release for you as you were…
37:41
Tad Eggleston: Wrapping up the disappeared.
37:47
Spencer Ackerman: The sort of person I am…
37:53
Spencer Ackerman: I took the end of Iron Man And… You know, grabbed a notebook.
38:02
Spencer Ackerman: And was just like, what else do I have?
38:05
Spencer Ackerman: you know, I was not prepared to not… I was not prepared to have that be the last thing I did in comics, or to have… Right.
38:14
Spencer Ackerman: Like, the last thing… That the last comic that I appear in.
38:23
Spencer Ackerman: end up like that. So, I wanted…
38:27
Spencer Ackerman: Really quickly, to see what I could push myself to come up with.
38:32
Spencer Ackerman: And so… you know, I…
38:38
Spencer Ackerman: five, six months between that and New York Comic Con, I think it was.
38:44
Tad Eggleston: Sounds about right.
38:45
Spencer Ackerman: I just, you know, kept… Refining this idea, it started out As something, much more Ditko-esque.
38:56
Spencer Ackerman: And I found that, like.
38:59
Spencer Ackerman: that worked better as a shitpost than as a comic book series.
39:04
Tad Eggleston: Hahaha!
39:05
Tad Eggleston: I.
39:06
Spencer Ackerman: So I moved it into a different direction and I found that it kind of worked better that way.
39:13
Tad Eggleston: So, so, like, late stage Ditko is what you're saying, when, when, when…
39:18
Tad Eggleston: Many of his comics were essentially extended shitposts. Beautiful ones!
39:23
Spencer Ackerman: Beautiful.
39:23
Tad Eggleston: Gorgeous, like, you know…
39:26
Spencer Ackerman: Like, almost, like, nearly impenetrable as a reader experience, but, like, amazing grids that are, like, a 24-panel grid at times.
39:36
Spencer Ackerman: That you know, despite what looks like a cluttered page, actually moves with narrative economy. A lot of those like Mr. A stories are not 22-page comic books.
39:49
Spencer Ackerman: They're, like, 8 and 16, and they have so many panels. And you can't believe that there's so much packed into all of these pages, but, like, you get used… like, Ditko disciplines a reader. Ditko trains.
40:03
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
40:03
Spencer Ackerman: I, particularly.
40:06
Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean…
40:06
Spencer Ackerman: like the like high objectivist.
40:09
Spencer Ackerman: Face…
40:10
Tad Eggleston: I.
40:11
Spencer Ackerman: or.
40:11
Tad Eggleston: I regularly just go back to Amazing Fantasy XV, and, like, how much of the entire Spider-Man mythos is crammed into 11 pages.
40:25
Spencer Ackerman: I mean, so…
40:27
Tad Eggleston: think.
40:27
Spencer Ackerman: laughter.
40:28
Tad Eggleston: The… the…
40:31
Spencer Ackerman: If you like that, and you also like seeing
40:37
Spencer Ackerman: Like, like a man… Determined… determined to be, like, also, like, a great pamphleteer.
40:47
Spencer Ackerman: Mr. A is really like the comic for you.
40:53
Tad Eggleston: It's been on my list, but I haven't read it yet.
40:55
Spencer Ackerman: You know, there's a reason why, you know, Spider-Man is Spider-Man and Mr. A is Mr. A. But, like, you know, Ditko is also…
41:04
Spencer Ackerman: At that point, even though, you know, I share nothing about the objectives for which, you know, Ditko
41:10
Spencer Ackerman: Devoted his, his…
41:12
Spencer Ackerman: awe-inspiring, like, past, you know, considerable talents. But I will say, you know, how much I respect and recognize
41:21
Spencer Ackerman: That he is there with this overwhelming clarity of focus to tell a story about the world as it makes sense to him, and what he's telling you a story about, what you ought to embrace and what you must never tolerate.
41:40
Spencer Ackerman: And I'm here for that. I'm here for those kinds of contentions, even if I don't ultimately, like the purpose, to which they're put. And I do kind of want to, like, like, speak to that tradition in comics somewhat.
41:59
Tad Eggleston: No, like, I mean, Ditko… Ditko's actually a figure that I want to learn more about, because he's…
42:07
Tad Eggleston: so fascinating. I'm certain that I wouldn't
42:14
Tad Eggleston: like his politics, but I'm also certain that I'd love having a conversation with him, if only because I've met enough people who had conversations with him. They'd show up at his place, and he'd talk to them, or he'd write back to them. The number of comic artists that had correspondence with Steve Ditko when they were, like, teenagers is ridiculous.
42:33
Tad Eggleston: V…
42:34
Spencer Ackerman: The editor of my newsletter, Sam Tielman, a really great journalist who I met when we worked together at The Guardian, is one of those people who eventually…
42:46
Tad Eggleston: I feel like he might have mentioned that, yeah.
42:48
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, like some degree of correspondence with Ditko. He's writing a book that I don't know how much of this is public.
42:58
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I don't know either. He and I have traded emails about it. He'll be on sometime soon.
43:04
Spencer Ackerman: Great.
43:05
Tad Eggleston: Well, because he mentioned the book, I think, at the same time that you were mentioning something, so I actually emailed the two of you on the same day. You both got.
43:15
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, excellent.
43:16
Tad Eggleston: But you've managed to schedule and come on, he hasn't yet, but I think.
43:20
Spencer Ackerman: his.
43:21
Tad Eggleston: project is bigger.
43:22
Spencer Ackerman: I'll press Sam, I think that you'll find.
43:26
Tad Eggleston: I love talking to Sam. Sam was a…
43:28
Spencer Ackerman: So do I. I mean, what Sam is working on is, you know… Oh, yeah, no.
43:33
Tad Eggleston: told.
43:33
Spencer Ackerman: For interests and like to those of this podcast.
43:37
Tad Eggleston: He told me what it is. I'm super psyched. Yeah.
43:39
Spencer Ackerman: It's gonna be great.
43:41
Tad Eggleston: I just don't know for certain if it… what's been announced. Yeah, that's… So I can't answer that question either.
43:48
Spencer Ackerman: But…
43:49
Spencer Ackerman: you know, you know, I, I think, you know, Steve Ditko.
43:56
Spencer Ackerman: Would absolutely not approve of this project, but would, like, with extreme reluctance, recognize what it is.
44:07
Tad Eggleston: I think, actually, that he would totally approve of this project, but just be willing to lecture you on why it was wrong.
44:16
Spencer Ackerman: I'm willing to hear that.
44:18
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
44:20
Spencer Ackerman: just.
44:20
Tad Eggleston: The vibe, I mean, he and Ann Nicenti were good friends and if there's anybody who's not.
44:25
Tad Eggleston: Annie is…
44:27
Spencer Ackerman: No, I've had the pleasure.
44:29
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
44:29
Spencer Ackerman: Now I'm gonna ask her about that, I didn't know that they were friends.
44:33
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They actually… one of the things that I talked to her about briefly, she barely remembered it, except that she always liked working with Steve. Chris Condon and I once literally picked a random comic, and we read it on air, and it was…
44:48
Tad Eggleston: a one-shot Daredevil issue.
44:52
Tad Eggleston: With Ann Nisenti and Steve Ditko.
44:56
Spencer Ackerman: They work together.
44:57
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
44:58
Spencer Ackerman: There's an Ascenti Ditko issue of Daredevil.
45:01
Tad Eggleston: There is.
45:02
Spencer Ackerman: Is that… oh my god.
45:04
Tad Eggleston: It has, like, exploding babies.
45:06
Spencer Ackerman: So I have is that an Inferno issue?
45:11
Tad Eggleston: I don't think so, give me a second.
45:13
Spencer Ackerman: Okay.
45:15
Tad Eggleston: I'll look it up again.
45:17
Spencer Ackerman: I, I have, but, you know, have not made a great deal of progress through.
45:22
Spencer Ackerman: The Nosenti Romita Jr. Daredevil omnibus.
45:28
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
45:28
Spencer Ackerman: Is that… do you happen to know if that's collected in there, or is that that error?
45:32
Tad Eggleston: I think it is. I think it might… I mean, it's somewhat that era, but I think it's during the time…
45:39
Tad Eggleston: Oh, wait a minute, maybe it is.
45:41
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, fantastic, I'm gonna go look for that when this is done.
45:44
Tad Eggleston: Maybe it is. Hold on a second, I'll find the exact…
45:50
Tad Eggleston: Fill the space, Spencer. Sing a song or something. Actually, tell me… tell me about your trip
45:56
Tad Eggleston: Was it Santa? See, this is how little I know basketball. I forget.
45:59
Spencer Ackerman: and.
45:59
Tad Eggleston: Thanks for playing. Was it San Antonio?
46:01
Spencer Ackerman: It was San Antonio.
46:03
Tad Eggleston: Okay, tell that story, because… because I told my wife about… about.
46:08
Tad Eggleston: the emails we sent today, and she's like, oh, is Spencer a big…
46:12
Tad Eggleston: Knicks fan, I'm like, let me tell you how big of a Knicks fan Spencer is.
46:17
Spencer Ackerman: Well, so, this is,
46:21
Spencer Ackerman: You know, I did not live before this year to have seen a Knicks championship. The last Knicks championship was in 1973. I was born in 1980.
46:35
Spencer Ackerman: And…
46:36
Tad Eggleston: Me too.
46:37
Spencer Ackerman: Most of, oh, very good. So for, so you know this, this pain intimately. So for most of my life.
46:44
Tad Eggleston: Well, yeah, I'm a Cubs fan.
46:46
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
46:47
Spencer Ackerman: what.
46:49
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, yeah.
46:49
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
46:50
Spencer Ackerman: Definitely do. That's about as analogous as…
46:53
Tad Eggleston: And my sec… and my second team was the Red Sox.
46:58
Spencer Ackerman: well, that I feel no sympathy for, but.
47:02
Tad Eggleston: know.
47:03
Spencer Ackerman: Anyway…
47:04
Tad Eggleston: I feel no sympathy for your Yankees.
47:07
Spencer Ackerman: No, of course not.
47:07
Tad Eggleston: Problems lately.
47:08
Spencer Ackerman: No.
47:08
Tad Eggleston: Go Rays.
47:10
Spencer Ackerman: I mean, I feel like we can't even really say lately at this point. This is a crime.
47:14
Tad Eggleston: Well, that's true.
47:15
Spencer Ackerman: This is… Something astonishing anyway,
47:19
Spencer Ackerman: I, long story short, the Knicks, after a long winter of futility,
47:27
Spencer Ackerman: were on their way, just, you know, through an epic playoff run, like a statistically great, statistically historic playoff run that ended with a 16-3 record in the championship. But
47:40
Spencer Ackerman: While they were wrapping up, the Eastern Conference Final.
47:45
Spencer Ackerman: I was trading texts with my friend in Waller versus Wildstorm.
47:51
Spencer Ackerman: co-writer and fellow Nick Sicko, Evan Narcis, who lives in Texas, and
47:58
Spencer Ackerman: We were just sort of, you know.
48:01
Spencer Ackerman: More on the level of bullshitting with each other.
48:05
Spencer Ackerman: Sort of figuring that, like, If there's a chance, because the Western Conference Finals hadn't, resolved yet.
48:11
Spencer Ackerman: that, the Knicks were gonna play San Antonio Then…
48:17
Spencer Ackerman: What we should do is just buy tickets.
48:21
Spencer Ackerman: from one of the games in San Antonio, stay with a mutual friend, the aforementioned Roma fan from earlier in this podcast.
48:28
Spencer Ackerman: And like all go see the game, which I thought was a fantastic plan. And so during
48:36
Spencer Ackerman: At the same time though, like, it's only viable, the reason why this is viable.
48:41
Spencer Ackerman: and, you know, I wouldn't just, you know, get on the subway and go to Madison Square Garden and do this, is because Madison Square Garden is priced out, of any reasonable person, especially for an NBA Finals game.
48:55
Tad Eggleston: This would be why I didn't go to any World Series games.
48:59
Tad Eggleston: I hung out on the street during World Series games. But I did not go to World Series games.
49:05
Spencer Ackerman: And so, like, Evan and I were kind of, you know, soothing, you know, the feeling of missing out on this.
49:14
Spencer Ackerman: With, you know, this kind of, you know.
49:18
Spencer Ackerman: boastful assurance to one another that, like, if it turns out it's San Antonio, we'll just do that, even though, like, we know they're like, that's also gonna be a lot of money. And so, this year, my older daughter watched the, the NBA playoffs with me.
49:38
Spencer Ackerman: And so we were watching, I think it must have been like game six of the Western Conference finals.
49:44
Spencer Ackerman: And she's turning to me and she's asking me, like, why are you on your phone?
49:49
Spencer Ackerman: And I love her that she… she asked me that. And I explained to her that, like, I'm talking with Evan and, you know, we've got this plan.
49:56
Spencer Ackerman: And so I, you know.
49:58
Spencer Ackerman: Quite possibly pretty stupid, quite possibly might not end up happening. Oh wow, look at that. And as soon as I told her what it was, she was like, Well, can I go if you guys go?
50:09
Spencer Ackerman: And at that point, it was no longer, you know, a borderline irresponsible
50:16
Spencer Ackerman: financial decision. It was epic dad shit. And so that's what happened. So that's the story of how I took my daughter to game two of the NBA Finals, which we saw the Knicks win.
50:29
Spencer Ackerman: in San Antonio. All the components of this particular friend group were on hand for that, so it made it all the more meaningful, including.
50:39
Spencer Ackerman: evan's daughter couldn't attend, unfortunately, but our friend Adam's older daughter did, and that was really wonderful.
50:49
Spencer Ackerman: Speaking of wonderful, let's…
50:51
Tad Eggleston: found.
50:52
Spencer Ackerman: Daredevil, is that 260?
50:54
Tad Eggleston: Daredevil 264.
50:56
Spencer Ackerman: 64.
50:57
Tad Eggleston: Steve Ditko with Al Williamson Inking and a Steve Lytle cover.
51:01
Spencer Ackerman: Wow.
51:02
Spencer Ackerman: Because that sure wasn't a Ditko cover.
51:05
Tad Eggleston: No.
51:06
Tad Eggleston: And it is in… your… Omnibus.
51:13
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, excellent. I'm gonna go read that when we're done.
51:16
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
51:18
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.
51:20
Tad Eggleston: It's… it's kind of a wild story. Chris and I had fun with it.
51:23
Spencer Ackerman: I bet it is.
51:25
Tad Eggleston: And then… and then he became the hottest writer in the world, and we haven't had time to do that again.
51:29
Spencer Ackerman: Love that guy too. If anyone checking out this podcast hasn't read That Texas Blood, Hell Comes to Allison Ranch, the first issue of that just dropped.
51:41
Tad Eggleston: Amazing.
51:42
Spencer Ackerman: so.
51:42
Tad Eggleston: Amazing. I may have plugged it a few hundred times now.
51:46
Spencer Ackerman: Well, let me just take this.
51:47
Tad Eggleston: And you should plug it again.
51:49
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, I, I…
51:50
Tad Eggleston: it when you plugged it in your newsletter.
51:52
Spencer Ackerman: I intend to keep plugging it because that book is great. I, I really love.
51:57
Spencer Ackerman: The, entire world building
52:01
Spencer Ackerman: That Chris and Jacob Phillips have pulled off in that book. They'll both be it.
52:06
Tad Eggleston: New York Comic Con.
52:07
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, I'm looking forward to catching up. I don't think… I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Jacob yet, so I'd.
52:12
Tad Eggleston: I haven't either, so you're gonna pull it off before I do.
52:15
Tad Eggleston: I've… I've talked to him.
52:18
Tad Eggleston: Back when he… he went… he's since moved, but he used to have his studio in a container, in, like, a decommissioned shipping yard.
52:27
Spencer Ackerman: Oh.
52:27
Tad Eggleston: In Manchester. Apparently, the whole shipping yard had become… he's like, yeah, there's, like, a coffee shop in a container, there's a barber shop in a container. This…
52:39
Spencer Ackerman: The financial capital of London used to be one of the shipping capitals of the world.
52:45
Spencer Ackerman: And now, like, after containerization was no longer a viable port, and also decolonization was no longer a viable port, and now, like, the conversion into a much different and far more malignant instrument than Jacob Phillips' art studio.
53:04
Spencer Ackerman: Has proceeded.
53:06
Tad Eggleston: Did you get an opportunity to see his adaptation of, Megalopolis?
53:11
Spencer Ackerman: No, but I'll check that out any day of the week.
53:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he, he, it was Chris Ryle.
53:17
Tad Eggleston: did the writing, and Jacob did the art.
53:21
Tad Eggleston: I'm one of the handful of people that like the movie, and I still think the comic is better.
53:27
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, fantastic. I mean…
53:29
Tad Eggleston: What was super cool when I talked to Chris Ryle is apparently Coppola gave them the script and told them to have at it. And every time he asked.
53:37
Tad Eggleston: France is a question, France would be like, no, no, no, this is your Megalopolis.
53:44
Spencer Ackerman: Imagine hearing that.
53:46
Tad Eggleston: So, yeah.
53:49
Tad Eggleston: So,
53:51
Tad Eggleston: I don't want to keep you too late. Among other things, I have to teach in the morning, too, so we're gonna roll.
53:56
Tad Eggleston: We're gonna roll into closing questions. Can't remember if I had one of these the last time you were on, I know I had the other.
54:05
Tad Eggleston: We're rapidly approaching the fifth The end of the fifth year of this podcast, and
54:13
Tad Eggleston: I feel like I've fallen into the Twilight Zone.
54:16
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I got to think to myself all day, I'm talking to a Pulitzer Prize winner tonight, and I got a Penn Award winner on Thursday.
54:26
Tad Eggleston: I love that. And like, two weeks ago, I hung out with Dennis Kitchen all day, you know?
54:33
Spencer Ackerman: This is comics community.
54:35
Tad Eggleston: Exactly, but like, the number of things that are just regular parts of my life now, that I still have to pinch myself a little, and if you told me, like, even 6 years ago.
54:48
Tad Eggleston: Hey, this is gonna be… you're not gonna think twice about emailing Spencer Ackerman. You're… you're gonna text with Chris Cantwell.
54:56
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah.
54:56
Tad Eggleston: You're… you're gonna… you're gonna have… have, like.
55:02
Tad Eggleston: Various people text you during baseball games to give you shit.
55:08
Tad Eggleston: Right? For that matter, I spent a lot of today, lining up all the guests for the 5th annual Baseball and Comics podcast.
55:18
Spencer Ackerman: Excellent.
55:19
Tad Eggleston: I'm friends with Rob Nyer now, which is…
55:23
Tad Eggleston: That's… I mean, Spencer, I love you, but that's even a bigger deal to me.
55:29
Spencer Ackerman: I believe it.
55:29
Tad Eggleston: Hey!
55:34
Tad Eggleston: But so I've started collecting stories about those surreal things that… that people have happen.
55:41
Tad Eggleston: Or get to do, because they're part of this comics community.
55:46
Tad Eggleston: Tell me something that you've…
55:49
Tad Eggleston: Gotten to do, or somebody you've gotten to meet, or something that's happened to you.
55:57
Spencer Ackerman: Oh.
55:57
Tad Eggleston: Because of this journey in comics that, like, you wouldn't have been able to imagine before.
56:03
Tad Eggleston: This journey at Comics.
56:05
Spencer Ackerman: I think the one that, that I would, you know…
56:11
Spencer Ackerman: You know, aside from, you know, actually writing, you know, writing these things, You know.
56:20
Spencer Ackerman: Like I mentioned earlier, Greg Rucka is my GOAT, I think he's
56:25
Spencer Ackerman: The best comics writer. He certainly, you know.
56:28
Tad Eggleston: Pretty damn good!
56:29
Spencer Ackerman: Yeah, I… you know, Without disrespecting any other comics writers, he is my ideal comics writer.
56:38
Tad Eggleston: Right.
56:39
Spencer Ackerman: He, in my opinion, best captures this…
56:45
Spencer Ackerman: Social political voice that's also… Organically expressed.
56:50
Spencer Ackerman: Through characters of, great depth and meaning.
56:56
Spencer Ackerman: who are more than just avatars for things that are more than just… Purposeful instruments. And…
57:05
Spencer Ackerman: I was lucky enough to meet Greg
57:07
Spencer Ackerman: Several years ago, when I was in Portland, And…
57:15
Spencer Ackerman: In just, like, a moment that I'll just, like, never stop thinking about.
57:21
Spencer Ackerman: Greg showed up to our coffee.
57:25
Spencer Ackerman: Holding multiple copies of my book.
57:29
Spencer Ackerman: To get me to sign them.
57:32
Spencer Ackerman: For, for people in his life and, that was.
57:39
Spencer Ackerman: That, like, that's pretty high up there. I couldn't have asked, really, for anything better than that. And he also, because of, you know, how generous a person he is, also came with an omnibus edition still in the wrapping.
57:57
Spencer Ackerman: that had just been published and sent to him, that was the Gotham Central omnibus.
58:03
Tad Eggleston: Oh, nice.
58:04
Spencer Ackerman: So, you know, that's… that's a…
58:09
Spencer Ackerman: I, you know, not really looking to top that.
58:12
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that's pretty good.
58:13
Spencer Ackerman: That was pretty good. So, yeah.
58:17
Tad Eggleston: I'm trying to remember what Greg's was. I mean, I felt like joking, saying, it's so funny. Greg was saying… But I don't… I don't think it was. I could be wrong, I'll have to go back and listen.
58:31
Tad Eggleston: Or don't.
58:34
Tad Eggleston: That's cool. That's really cool.
58:37
Tad Eggleston: My final question, as it always is, and you've always given me really, really good answers.
58:44
Tad Eggleston: Thanks a lot for Free Planet I I loved.
58:48
Tad Eggleston: loved that book and I had been sleeping on it until you recommended it.
58:55
Tad Eggleston: Tell me something you love.
58:57
Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic, but we don't have rules. Preferably storytelling, but again, with the rules, but something that you love.
59:06
Tad Eggleston: And not enough people around you have experienced it, and you really want them to.
59:11
Tad Eggleston: So that you have more people to talk about it with.
59:14
Spencer Ackerman: There is a book that,
59:19
Spencer Ackerman: Mad Cave is publishing… Called the HAB.
59:25
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, bad case, that's, that's
59:28
Tad Eggleston: Bad idea.
59:29
Spencer Ackerman: Bad idea, sorry, I have a… can we edit that? Sorry, let me start it…
59:32
Tad Eggleston: No, it's okay.
59:35
Spencer Ackerman: Sorry about that.
59:36
Tad Eggleston: Mad Cave did another book that was fantastic that you recommended.
59:42
Tad Eggleston: You even hooked me up with the writer, and why am I drawing a blank on the name of the book right now?
59:48
Tad Eggleston: We'll come up with it. Mad Cape does good stuff, but this one is bad.
59:51
Spencer Ackerman: Bad idea, pardon me. I, I had…
59:54
Spencer Ackerman: This is a book about a billionaire attempting to escape social collapse that he has a great deal of responsibility for.
1:00:06
Spencer Ackerman: Bring about…
1:00:08
Spencer Ackerman: I have no idea how this book isn't one of the biggest things in comics. In addition to just being great.
1:00:15
Spencer Ackerman: And being exceptionally satisfying during this moment in history.
1:00:22
Spencer Ackerman: This is the creative team. The creative team is Joshua Dysart.
1:00:28
Spencer Ackerman: David Lapham and Bill Sienkiewicz.
1:00:33
Tad Eggleston: I have.
1:00:34
Spencer Ackerman: I have no idea!
1:00:35
Tad Eggleston: Don't forget Jacob Phillips.
1:00:37
Spencer Ackerman: And Jacob Phillips, yes, pardon me, sorry Jacob.
1:00:41
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
1:00:41
Spencer Ackerman: Like, I don't know how.
1:00:44
Spencer Ackerman: A book?
1:00:46
Spencer Ackerman: With that team, Isn't something that everyone's talking about like, I, I, I.
1:00:53
Tad Eggleston: I'm talking about it. I love it.
1:00:55
Spencer Ackerman: I, I, I don't… man, what a good book that is. And I…
1:00:58
Tad Eggleston: I love Lapham's been all over the place lately.
1:01:01
Spencer Ackerman: I love it, I, you know, the more from him, the better.
1:01:05
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, have you read, his, his Star Course book, American Caper?
1:01:11
Spencer Ackerman: No, I need to do that. Now that I'm no longer.
1:01:13
Tad Eggleston: That's… That's written by the guys that wrote, Grand Theft Auto and…
1:01:20
Tad Eggleston: Red Dead Redemption decided to make a comic, and they got David Lapham to write and Shelly Bond to edit.
1:01:26
Spencer Ackerman: like.
1:01:27
Tad Eggleston: Or David Lapham to draw and Shelly Bond to edit.
1:01:31
Spencer Ackerman: Wow.
1:01:31
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
1:01:32
Spencer Ackerman: Okay, I'm gonna check that out.
1:01:34
Tad Eggleston: It's amazing. The 11th issue just came out of 12.
1:01:37
Spencer Ackerman: But please, everyone listening to this who's not up on.
1:01:39
Tad Eggleston: Read the Hab.
1:01:40
Spencer Ackerman: You gotta check this out, you'll really like it.
1:01:43
Tad Eggleston: It's so good, I think 3 of the 4 issues are out now.
1:01:47
Tad Eggleston: I feel like it's gonna be 4.
1:01:49
Spencer Ackerman: Does it stop at four?
1:01:51
Tad Eggleston: Thought that's what they said when it… when it came out. Also, I came up with the book that we couldn't come up with. It was Exploit from Laura.
1:01:57
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, yes! Oh my god, I'm so sorry, Warren.
1:02:00
Tad Eggleston: Good. Yeah. So fucking good. Yes.
1:02:02
Spencer Ackerman: Buy that graphic novel.
1:02:04
Tad Eggleston: That one's for Matt.
1:02:05
Spencer Ackerman: Tamara and Emanuela have made something really special, and, you know, those of you in the comics community who know Comics Foundry, who know Comics Alliance, who know how special
1:02:22
Spencer Ackerman: both what Tim and Laura do individually, but especially, how special
1:02:29
Spencer Ackerman: What they do together is, exploit is, is unmissable.
1:02:34
Tad Eggleston: Okay, the HAB is going 6.
1:02:38
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, great, okay. We have, we have more.
1:02:41
Tad Eggleston: now.
1:02:41
Spencer Ackerman: Exploit, though. Exploit.
1:02:43
Tad Eggleston: Exploit. So good.
1:02:44
Spencer Ackerman: Well, in graphic novel in collected form now, and if it's not.
1:02:48
Tad Eggleston: I.
1:02:49
Spencer Ackerman: it'll.
1:02:49
Tad Eggleston: I believe so, if it's not, it's…
1:02:51
Spencer Ackerman: Gotta read this, yeah.
1:02:52
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
1:02:54
Tad Eggleston: And I need to invite them back, because we talked around issue 1 or 2.
1:03:00
Tad Eggleston: And… and…
1:03:02
Tad Eggleston: and agreed that we were going to have to come back for the spoilery conversation. So I'm glad… I'm glad that I… because that… that was a…
1:03:10
Tad Eggleston: a blast of a conversation, and apparently, and sure enough, as soon as I opened my next issue, it was right there. When Laura found out that I was buddies with Chris Cantwell, she's like, oh, you're gonna love the next issue, and sure enough, there was the Halt and Catch Fire reference on, like, page 2.
1:03:28
Spencer Ackerman: I have been lucky enough to,
1:03:33
Spencer Ackerman: To get to know Chris a little, and it is because of Laura that I
1:03:39
Spencer Ackerman: knew about Halt and Catch Fire at all.
1:03:42
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
1:03:44
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, Chris is such a good guy. I'm jealous that you got to have dinner with him. I mean, I've had dinner with him, but you got to have dinner with him. It wasn't Condon and Joe Illidge at that dinner? I feel like he sent me a picture, and I wanted to beat him over the head.
1:03:57
Spencer Ackerman: I don't think Joe was at that one, but that was where I met Chris as well.
1:04:02
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:04
Spencer Ackerman: But.
1:04:04
Tad Eggleston: just.
1:04:05
Spencer Ackerman: Joe's.
1:04:06
Tad Eggleston: Joe's amazing. Well, Joe's the one that introduced me to Hank.
1:04:11
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, great! Yeah, yeah.
1:04:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
1:04:13
Spencer Ackerman: Joe is the person I turn to when I need like information about how this industry actually operates.
1:04:20
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, Joe is a wealth of information. Big daredevil guy, too.
1:04:26
Tad Eggleston: Totally.
1:04:27
Tad Eggleston: One of these days, I'll have a…
1:04:30
Tad Eggleston: I've been… I've been kicking around the idea of a Daredevil roundtable for a long time, just because the people I know that love Daredevil are just cool.
1:04:40
Tad Eggleston: And it would be fun to throw them all in a room together.
1:04:43
Tad Eggleston: It'd be like, you, Joe Illage, Chris Ryle, and Sherman Alexie. Those would be… Sherman's a big Daredevil guy.
1:04:52
Spencer Ackerman: I didn't know that.
1:04:54
Tad Eggleston: He actually… he… one of the stories that he told me when he was on the last time, and he's actually… he'll be on later this week.
1:05:01
Spencer Ackerman: is.
1:05:01
Tad Eggleston: Since your episode is publishing in the future, when this airs, you should go back and listen to the Sherman Alexi episode.
1:05:10
Tad Eggleston: He was… Had a handshake agreement to write.
1:05:19
Tad Eggleston: the first Daredevil movie. So much so that they…
1:05:23
Tad Eggleston: They flew him down from Seattle on the company jet.
1:05:29
Tad Eggleston: But.
1:05:30
Tad Eggleston: What, Mark Steven Johnson?
1:05:32
Tad Eggleston: Had signed his 3-picture deal.
1:05:35
Tad Eggleston: While Sherman was in the air. And as part of it, asked to write and direct a Daredevil movie.
1:05:43
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, wow.
1:05:44
Tad Eggleston: So he lands!
1:05:47
Spencer Ackerman: No!
1:05:50
Spencer Ackerman: Oh, that's really funny.
1:05:51
Tad Eggleston: Oh, I mean.
1:05:53
Spencer Ackerman: business.
1:05:53
Tad Eggleston: He's able to laugh about it now, but apparently he refused a hotel room and just flew right back home.
1:06:00
Spencer Ackerman: Brutal, yeah.
1:06:01
Tad Eggleston: He was pissed.
1:06:05
Tad Eggleston: So yeah, we've got good people who are Daredevil fans. That's because Daredevil's the coolest.
1:06:11
Tad Eggleston: But, as always, Spencer, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you for
1:06:17
Tad Eggleston: all that you do. I love your comics, I love… I love you popping up in my inbox and making the world make a little bit more sense to me, even if it sometimes makes me want to scream even louder.
1:06:31
Tad Eggleston: At least I know what I'm screaming at.
1:06:34
Tad Eggleston: So, for 22 Panels, this has been Spencer Ackerman, and we will see you after the next page.
1:06:42
Spencer Ackerman: Thanks so much, Tad.