Latest / Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas / Casual Relationships, Real Feelings? Pratul Narang on Dating & Queer Love | Love Matters

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Casual Relationships, Real Feelings? Pratul Narang on Dating & Queer Love | Love Matters · Love Matters With Leeza Mangaldas

0:00
Speaker 1: Do you think sex can truly ever be casual?
0:03
Speaker 2: Isn't that a million dollar question? Sorry, don't cancel me
0:06
Speaker 2: straight people cheat and then they don't talk about it.
0:08
Speaker 1: Humans get a nursing test.
0:10
Speaker 2: How much time do we have on this spot? It's
0:14
Speaker 2: really not that difficult. Like if I don't want to
0:15
Speaker 2: have sex with somebody, I can find a way not
0:18
Speaker 2: to it.
0:18
Speaker 1: You know, only spaghetti is straight until it's wet. They say,
0:22
Speaker 1: I don't want commitment, but I don't want you dating
0:25
Speaker 1: anyone else.
0:26
Speaker 2: Oh, no, Ran, a lot more straight women should be,
0:28
Speaker 2: you know, for just like a little bit more casual sex.
0:31
Speaker 2: Because really, like, why are you committing to these losers
0:33
Speaker 2: that are just really not giving you much? Don't have
0:36
Speaker 2: sex with your friends. I do love love. You know,
0:39
Speaker 2: love matters, Lisa.
0:40
Speaker 1: Love matters, Pramil, yes! You know that feeling when you've
0:48
Speaker 1: just matched with someone and they're hot and funny and
0:51
Speaker 1: the banter is bantering, the emoji fireworks are flying? And
0:55
Speaker 1: then you get a message saying, just so you know,
0:58
Speaker 1: I'm only interested in casual sex. Casual. Such a loaded
1:03
Speaker 1: term in today's dating landscape because what does it even mean?
1:07
Speaker 1: Can sex ever truly be casual? Or is casual just
1:11
Speaker 1: a word we use because saying I'm afraid of getting
1:14
Speaker 1: hurt just doesn't sound quite as cool. I'm Lisa Mangaldas,
1:18
Speaker 1: and this is Love Matters. And on the show today,
1:21
Speaker 1: my guest is Prathal Narang. He's a Mumbai-based filmmaker, also
1:25
Speaker 1: the voice behind Yuva Education and Tribe Talks, two very
1:28
Speaker 1: popular podcasts that explore queerness, sex, and gender in India.
1:32
Speaker 1: And when he's not making films or podcasts, you may
1:35
Speaker 1: even find him holding a mic at a drag night. Ratul,
1:38
Speaker 1: I'm so delighted to have you here. Haven't seen you
1:40
Speaker 1: in a while. It's been a long, long time. I
1:42
Speaker 1: believe you are single and dating. Let's dive right into it.
1:46
Speaker 1: If you had to write a user manual for a
1:49
Speaker 1: first-time casual sex encounter, what would your top three tips be?
1:53
Speaker 2: I guess, number one, be honest. Know what you're signing
1:58
Speaker 2: up for. And just have fun. Yeah, I think three
2:03
Speaker 2: simple rules that I think should apply to anything in life,
2:07
Speaker 2: but especially to casual sex.
2:09
Speaker 1: In life and in bed, be honest, know what you're
2:12
Speaker 1: getting into, and have fun. I love it. Okay, but,
2:15
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the places people go
2:18
Speaker 1: wrong is that they don't actually have the same definition
2:20
Speaker 1: of casual. Like, we operate from different understandings of this word.
2:24
Speaker 1: For someone, it could mean a one-night stand. For someone,
2:27
Speaker 1: it could mean six months without labels. And for someone else,
2:30
Speaker 1: it could mean I'm emotionally unavailable, but you have to
2:33
Speaker 1: text me.
2:34
Speaker 2: Huh? I feel so attacked. Oh my God.
2:38
Speaker 1: What does casual mean for you? And do you think
2:41
Speaker 1: sex can truly ever be casual?
2:44
Speaker 2: Isn't that a million dollar question? I think yes and no.
2:51
Speaker 2: And I know that that doesn't give you a clear answer,
2:54
Speaker 2: but I feel like, like most things in life, I
2:56
Speaker 2: think it's only as casual as you want it to be.
2:59
Speaker 2: It's the same thing with awkwardness. I think things are
3:01
Speaker 2: only awkward if you let them be awkward. I think
3:04
Speaker 2: From my understanding, I think things can be casual and
3:08
Speaker 2: it can be... Sex can be casual as long as
3:12
Speaker 2: you're on the same page about it. But more often
3:16
Speaker 2: than not, what happens is I think one person's casual
3:18
Speaker 2: and the other one's not. And then it gets complicated.
3:22
Speaker 1: For sure.
3:23
Speaker 2: And I guess I've been guilty of.
3:25
Speaker 1: Being on both sides?
3:29
Speaker 2: Yes and no. I think I'm mostly on the side of...
3:34
Speaker 2: wanting to keep things casual. And then somehow I find
3:36
Speaker 2: myself in a very intense relationship that I almost feel
3:40
Speaker 2: like I didn't sign up for. So then you have
3:43
Speaker 2: to do a lot of work to just like, you know.
3:46
Speaker 1: Managing expectations is hard. What was your first casual encounter like? Oh, wow.
3:53
Speaker 2: How much time do we have on this part? So
3:57
Speaker 2: I was telling this to a friend and I find
3:58
Speaker 2: it really funny. But anytime I meet somebody, let's say
4:01
Speaker 2: a man, I am.
4:04
Speaker 2: Sort of on the spectrum of being a little bit
4:06
Speaker 2: more than what I would call homosexual. So I think
4:09
Speaker 2: maybe bisexual, maybe pansexual. So it really doesn't matter to me.
4:14
Speaker 2: But yeah, I love when a person comes with some
4:16
Speaker 2: sort of a return ticket to wherever they come from.
4:20
Speaker 2: It's really ideal for me because I think when you
4:23
Speaker 2: have limited time with each other, I think you can
4:26
Speaker 2: just cut through all the and just really get to
4:28
Speaker 2: the good stuff.
4:30
Speaker 1: You mean like an encounter that's destined not to have
4:34
Speaker 1: longevity because the person lives somewhere else?
4:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's where I am in life right
4:39
Speaker 2: now where I love for them to.
4:41
Speaker 1: For it to be doomed from the start so you just,
4:43
Speaker 1: you know this is.
4:44
Speaker 2: Oh, doomed is a heavy word.
4:45
Speaker 1: Insects forever is not a possibility.
4:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think sometimes, I think short-term encounters and, you know,
4:54
Speaker 2: even relationships for that matter that are a little bit not...
5:00
Speaker 2: you know, like it's not a saga. It's not like
5:02
Speaker 2: a lifetime that we're like choosing to spend with each other.
5:04
Speaker 2: And that little bit of time sometimes is a lot
5:06
Speaker 2: more special than the years of, you know, a relationship
5:10
Speaker 2: that you build with somebody. Not to say that the
5:12
Speaker 2: other side isn't good or great. But yeah, I love when,
5:16
Speaker 2: you know, a casual thing remains casual and, you know,
5:20
Speaker 2: we're both just pretty chill about it.
5:22
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, you mentioned that you identify as perhaps non-binary
5:27
Speaker 1: or pansexual, then say queer for sure. And then also,
5:33
Speaker 1: I think the expectations around casual sex can sometimes change
5:38
Speaker 1: based on whether you're in a straight room or a
5:40
Speaker 1: queer room.
5:41
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
5:41
Speaker 1: You know, there can be pressure, there can be judgment.
5:43
Speaker 1: What do these identity labels mean for you and how
5:46
Speaker 1: have they impacted how you view casual sex?
5:49
Speaker 2: That's a very good question. So I think I mean,
5:52
Speaker 2: I'm sure your audience is very, very educated in some
5:55
Speaker 2: of these terms, but I think sometimes you have to
5:57
Speaker 2: do a little bit of that elementary work to tell
5:59
Speaker 2: people what my gender identity is different from my sexual orientation.
6:05
Speaker 2: So yes, I think in terms of my gender expression
6:09
Speaker 2: over the years, I've come to realize that I think
6:11
Speaker 2: being non-binary kind of makes a lot more sense to
6:13
Speaker 2: me than, you know, being cisgendered of that. Yeah. And
6:18
Speaker 2: for my sexuality, again, I think it is, ever-growing, ever-changing.
6:23
Speaker 2: It's best to not limit yourself, you know, so you
6:26
Speaker 2: can have a lot more fun. And I think that's
6:28
Speaker 2: where I'm at in life now. I think there was
6:30
Speaker 2: a while that I thought that I was heterosexual, and
6:34
Speaker 2: there was a time that I thought that, oh, no,
6:36
Speaker 2: that's not me. Maybe I am fully homosexual, and, you know,
6:39
Speaker 2: it's only men that I'm attracted to. And as you
6:44
Speaker 2: can see right now, I have a bisexual mustache. So...
6:47
Speaker 2: I'm possibly growing into, I guess, my bi pan side
6:51
Speaker 2: a little bit more, or I have in the last
6:53
Speaker 2: few years, I would say.
6:55
Speaker 1: I think everyone just hasn't discovered their queerness yet. I
7:00
Speaker 1: have this theory that actually everyone's non-binary and queer. We've just,
7:03
Speaker 1: some of us have our eye open and others just
7:06
Speaker 1: don't want to open it. But anyway.
7:07
Speaker 2: See, it's great when you say that, because if I
7:08
Speaker 2: say that, it's like I'm pushing some sort of an agenda.
7:11
Speaker 1: I mean, look, the truth doesn't care whether you believe
7:13
Speaker 1: it or not.
7:13
Speaker 2: I like that.
7:15
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm interrogating my own sexuality too. And I
7:18
Speaker 1: definitely think that, you know, only spaghetti is straight until
7:22
Speaker 1: it's wet. But we can... That is a topic for
7:28
Speaker 1: another day. We're talking about casual sex today. I was
7:30
Speaker 1: trying to say that, have you found that with a
7:35
Speaker 1: certain identity marker comes a certain package of expectations around
7:40
Speaker 1: how open or not open you're supposed to be with
7:42
Speaker 1: regards to casual sex? Like as a woman, for example,
7:45
Speaker 1: there's the stereotype that women don't want casual sex. Only
7:48
Speaker 1: men want casual sex. And so if you're a man
7:50
Speaker 1: who doesn't, or if you're a woman who does, there's
7:52
Speaker 1: a lot of judgment attached to that, right? So what
7:54
Speaker 1: are the sorts of, stereotypes or expectations you've had to
7:58
Speaker 1: navigate as a queer person, perhaps, with regards to whether
8:02
Speaker 1: or not you should be, you know, on board with
8:05
Speaker 1: casual sex?
8:06
Speaker 2: Understood. Okay, so, I mean, it's an age-old story. You've
8:12
Speaker 2: heard about this. I think most gay dating, queer dating
8:17
Speaker 2: is a little bit hypersexual, I think, as compared to,
8:20
Speaker 2: let's say, what the straights are doing. Which I find baffling,
8:23
Speaker 2: though I feel like, again, a lot more straight women
8:25
Speaker 2: should be, you know, for just like a little bit
8:28
Speaker 2: more casual sex. Because really, like, why are you committing
8:30
Speaker 2: to these losers that are just really not giving you much?
8:34
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think there is a certain expectation, especially
8:36
Speaker 2: if your dating pool is, let's say, gay men. uh
8:41
Speaker 2: that uh yeah you're not looking for long-term relationships or
8:45
Speaker 2: even if you do it is most likely going to
8:47
Speaker 2: be open you will still be exploring you know the
8:50
Speaker 2: romantic sexual relation whatever uh connections let's say um yeah
8:56
Speaker 2: i think a little bit of that expectation kind of
8:59
Speaker 2: messes with your head a little bit because again i
9:01
Speaker 2: could be at a time in my life where i
9:04
Speaker 2: think wanting something a little bit more stable seems like
9:07
Speaker 2: something that will you know give me joy will uh,
9:10
Speaker 2: you know, bring me some sort of sanity, maybe some
9:12
Speaker 2: stability in life. Uh, and then there are times where
9:14
Speaker 2: I could potentially be a little bit heartbroken from a relationship. And, um,
9:18
Speaker 2: I can't even look in the direction of men, especially,
9:21
Speaker 2: but also just again, people that could potentially be, you know,
9:24
Speaker 2: looking for something a little bit more serious and, you know, whatever. So, um,
9:28
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it, again, it really is just where
9:31
Speaker 2: you are in life and how much can you commit
9:33
Speaker 2: to what you're committing to. I would say that yes
9:36
Speaker 2: I think there is a stark difference that you would
9:39
Speaker 2: notice let's say when you are dating women or exploring
9:42
Speaker 2: sexual connections with women straight or not straight but with
9:47
Speaker 2: men I think yeah I do understand where we we
9:52
Speaker 2: well get a little bit of that bad rep that
9:55
Speaker 2: yeah men always are looking for things that are casual
9:57
Speaker 2: or men are mostly emotionally unavailable but masking it, you know,
10:01
Speaker 2: with a certain charm that makes you think otherwise. Yeah, really,
10:04
Speaker 2: just again, as I said earlier, I think as long
10:06
Speaker 2: as you're honest, A, with yourself and the person that
10:08
Speaker 2: you're with, some of these things you can sort of
10:11
Speaker 2: find a way to navigate.
10:13
Speaker 1: So, yeah. And do you find that people are able
10:16
Speaker 1: to be honest? Like when I've explored casual sex, I
10:21
Speaker 1: think sometimes it seemed like either or both parties were
10:25
Speaker 1: afraid of getting hot or unwilling to commit partly because
10:31
Speaker 1: they just wanted to keep their options open. Like, is
10:34
Speaker 1: it truly a recognition of the fact that, you know,
10:37
Speaker 1: non-monogamy doesn't suit us or sex can just be for pleasure?
10:40
Speaker 1: Or is it also a Sort of, you know, you're
10:45
Speaker 1: kind of preventing yourself from experiencing the whole range that
10:50
Speaker 1: the human experience has to offer in the realm of
10:52
Speaker 1: love and sex and romance because you're like a bit
10:55
Speaker 1: afraid of vulnerability and being seen and understood to that extent,
10:59
Speaker 1: being embarrassed, being cringy. You know, you spend enough time
11:02
Speaker 1: with anyone, you're going to discover like they're not as,
11:05
Speaker 1: the pedestal is going to remove itself from underneath them.
11:10
Speaker 1: And when you say that you only want to meet people,
11:12
Speaker 1: you know, who are like leaving the next day and stuff.
11:14
Speaker 1: Do you think we have an unwillingness to deal with
11:17
Speaker 1: people in their entirety?
11:19
Speaker 2: A little bit, I think. Yeah. I mean, I don't
11:23
Speaker 2: want to sound like a cynic, but I think ultimately,
11:25
Speaker 2: I think with age and maturity, you realize that people
11:28
Speaker 2: are disappointed overall. Deeply, deeply. And yeah, you can be
11:33
Speaker 2: a romantic and build these ideas in your head about,
11:35
Speaker 2: you know, what that ideal match looks like or, you know,
11:38
Speaker 2: what a perfect first date and then, you know, the
11:41
Speaker 2: follow up for that and then, you know, a beautiful relationship.
11:44
Speaker 2: Like again, like some of those things can be true
11:46
Speaker 2: and are true for some people. In most cases, you know,
11:50
Speaker 2: you realize that, you know, maybe I was building it
11:52
Speaker 2: a little bit too much in my head and then
11:54
Speaker 2: the reality isn't so. I think coming to the part
11:58
Speaker 2: that I think it's also not natural to just look
12:01
Speaker 2: at monogamy as the only option, especially for queer people,
12:04
Speaker 2: I believe. I think it is deep conditioning. And then
12:08
Speaker 2: just again, the heteronormative society that we're in, that we
12:10
Speaker 2: think the template that you see a straight couple follow
12:14
Speaker 2: is the exact same template that the rest of the
12:16
Speaker 2: world needs to follow. And I don't think so. That's
12:18
Speaker 2: true for queer relationships.
12:19
Speaker 1: I don't even think straight couples actually want to follow it.
12:21
Speaker 2: It's true. Again, I think I heard somebody say, say
12:24
Speaker 2: this to me the other day which was really funny
12:26
Speaker 2: is that you know queer relationship gay relationships they are
12:30
Speaker 2: sometimes or not open you know where they're open to
12:33
Speaker 2: exploring things outside of the relationship and straight people sorry
12:37
Speaker 2: don't cancel be straight people cheat and then they don't
12:38
Speaker 2: talk about it right so i think it's it's you
12:41
Speaker 2: know you choose your own choose and fight your own
12:43
Speaker 2: battles uh you know whatever but um i think yeah
12:46
Speaker 2: there's definitely I think, again, if you are somebody who's,
12:50
Speaker 2: let's say, realized that about yourself, that being in a
12:53
Speaker 2: very heavy, serious, intense relationship isn't my thing right now,
12:57
Speaker 2: maybe in the future. And right now I want to
12:58
Speaker 2: keep things casual. That could seem like you're limiting yourself
13:02
Speaker 2: to be vulnerable with somebody. But then again, I feel,
13:08
Speaker 2: I think with me, especially my casual encounters have been
13:13
Speaker 2: equally rewarding and equally romantic and vulnerable and all of
13:17
Speaker 2: those things. Um, and I don't need to sort of like,
13:22
Speaker 2: you know, you say sometimes that you're like, I'm saving
13:24
Speaker 2: myself from that for marriage or whatever. Right. I don't
13:27
Speaker 2: feel the need to do that. Like I could potentially have,
13:30
Speaker 2: you know, something super intimate and super romantic with somebody
13:33
Speaker 2: I know who's going to leave the country in two days,
13:36
Speaker 2: which is ideal.
13:37
Speaker 1: So intensity and the duration of the relationship don't have
13:41
Speaker 1: to be directly proportional that you can go from zero
13:44
Speaker 1: to like intense half an hour. Okay, so let's talk
13:50
Speaker 1: about some of the joys of casual sex. Because I'm
13:52
Speaker 1: getting the sense that you do like casual sex.
13:56
Speaker 2: Yes, and you would be lying if you say that
13:58
Speaker 2: you don't.
13:59
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think as a woman, there's a
14:00
Speaker 1: safety consideration. For me, the perspective, and maybe for men too,
14:04
Speaker 1: when you're dating other men. But as a woman, I
14:06
Speaker 1: think too often, it just doesn't seem worth disrupting my
14:09
Speaker 1: vaginal pH when I could also just like not make
14:11
Speaker 1: it home. Is this man worthy? of my trust for
14:14
Speaker 1: this one night. You know what I mean? I don't
14:15
Speaker 1: think straight men do a great service to themselves to
14:18
Speaker 1: make it seem worthwhile to stake an unwanted pregnancy, an STI,
14:25
Speaker 1: harm of some kind. The most likely person to kill
14:31
Speaker 1: a woman by murder is their own romantic partner, statistically.
14:35
Speaker 1: I hate to get morbid here, but I think the
14:36
Speaker 1: stakes are just so high that even if I wanted
14:39
Speaker 1: casual sex as a woman, I'm wary of it. And
14:42
Speaker 1: I think that gender does play a part there. But
14:45
Speaker 1: as a.
14:46
Speaker 2: Sorry, do you think all casual sex needs to be
14:49
Speaker 2: with a stranger though?
14:50
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
14:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:51
Speaker 1: I guess not. But I mean, wouldn't it be.
14:53
Speaker 2: I have a lot of girlfriends who have like a...
14:56
Speaker 2: a steady casual sex partner, right? Like, let's say they
14:58
Speaker 2: are not in a relationship.
14:59
Speaker 1: So you're saying it's casual because it's not being defined,
15:02
Speaker 1: but it's long-term. Long-term casual sex as opposed to one-night
15:05
Speaker 1: casual sex.
15:05
Speaker 2: That is one part of it, yes. It's kind of
15:07
Speaker 2: like having a.
15:09
Speaker 1: Friend with benefits?
15:10
Speaker 2: Like a tennis buddy, if I may.
15:12
Speaker 1: A tennis buddy.
15:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, you know, you can go out and play
15:16
Speaker 2: tennis with strangers and you may not enjoy it. And
15:18
Speaker 2: then once in a while, you play tennis with a
15:20
Speaker 2: friend who, you know, is great at tennis and also
15:23
Speaker 2: will work around your schedule, will be... respectful, mindful, considerate,
15:28
Speaker 2: all of the lovely things that you would want, you know,
15:31
Speaker 2: in a sexual encounter with a non-stranger. So yeah, that's
15:35
Speaker 2: where I think I'm coming from.
15:37
Speaker 1: So what does casual mean then for you? Is it
15:39
Speaker 1: that it's not a relationship leading to marriage? Because I
15:41
Speaker 1: think that like, I never want, I don't want marriage
15:44
Speaker 1: at all. I don't even want to live with somebody,
15:45
Speaker 1: but I do like to be treated with a certain
15:48
Speaker 1: level of priority with whoever I'm sleeping with. And it's
15:54
Speaker 1: hard for me not to feel emotionally and intellectually connected
15:57
Speaker 1: to someone or to aspire for that in my intimate relationships.
16:01
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting. I think over time, maybe some
16:04
Speaker 2: of these things also need to evolve. The definitions of things.
16:07
Speaker 2: I think, again, when we just say casual, I think
16:10
Speaker 2: it's almost said like a bad word.
16:13
Speaker 3: Right.
16:13
Speaker 2: That, oh, my God, like, you know, it's just into
16:15
Speaker 2: me for casual things or but I. see casual as
16:20
Speaker 2: quite a positive word like you know you you talk
16:22
Speaker 2: about like oh i don't want to dress up today
16:24
Speaker 2: so i'm going to dress down and i'm casually dressed
16:25
Speaker 2: right or um i don't want to do like a
16:28
Speaker 2: hectic clubby scene so let's just have like a casual
16:31
Speaker 2: meal or whatever so i think it's that i think
16:33
Speaker 2: when we attach the word casual to sex we automatically
16:36
Speaker 2: are assuming these horrible things about people that you know
16:40
Speaker 2: might not be true i think it's um yeah i
16:42
Speaker 2: think we need to evolve to a point where um
16:45
Speaker 2: yeah that if I choose to be somebody who is
16:51
Speaker 2: is only looking for casual encounters whether or not that
16:53
Speaker 2: is with strangers I still yeah I should not be
16:57
Speaker 2: fearful for my life if in any way and I
16:59
Speaker 2: think that's one thing and then also again I think
17:02
Speaker 2: just the what you say the if it seems frivolous
17:07
Speaker 2: like that you know I am I'm only exploring things
17:10
Speaker 2: that aren't going to be deep or vulnerable or whatever,
17:14
Speaker 2: I don't think that's also entirely true. I think casual
17:16
Speaker 2: can mean all of the great things without the tag of,
17:22
Speaker 2: you know.
17:23
Speaker 1: Forever. Yeah. Okay, so you're defining casual as opposed to
17:27
Speaker 1: a lack of effort. Casual is a lack of pressure
17:32
Speaker 1: or maybe a lack of performance and pretension.
17:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
17:36
Speaker 1: I like that.
17:37
Speaker 2: And something that's just chill, right? Like, I think that's
17:42
Speaker 2: sex is great if you, if you are, you know,
17:45
Speaker 2: with somebody that sort of understands you, I think, a
17:49
Speaker 2: little bit more. Again, you don't, I, and, sorry to
17:53
Speaker 2: use that tennis, why am I talking about tennis? I'm
17:55
Speaker 2: not even a study person. Badminton. It works. But yeah,
17:59
Speaker 2: in that same analogy, I think, again, it, you can,
18:03
Speaker 2: you can get better with, you know, Practice. Yeah, with practice, with,
18:08
Speaker 2: you know, if you do it multiple times with, somebody
18:11
Speaker 2: who you know that, you know, uh, is, is a
18:14
Speaker 2: great casual sex buddy, but, uh, you know, there might
18:20
Speaker 2: be things about, you know, them that you realize that
18:24
Speaker 2: aren't compatible in the long run. And it's the same
18:26
Speaker 2: for like, you know, they can realize that about you also, uh,
18:29
Speaker 2: that shouldn't still take away that you're sexually compatible or you,
18:32
Speaker 2: you know, the sex is fire or, you know, when you,
18:34
Speaker 2: when you do it, it's, uh, it's magical and all
18:36
Speaker 2: of those things. And if if it comes with a
18:39
Speaker 2: little bit of intimacy, you know, even post-sex, let's say,
18:43
Speaker 2: don't fight it, you know. I think it's still beautiful
18:47
Speaker 2: to have, you know, a friend in your corner that
18:51
Speaker 2: you can.
18:51
Speaker 1: So you can have meaningful casual sex without being a jerk.
18:55
Speaker 1: People need to learn that. Casual sex doesn't mean be
18:57
Speaker 1: low effort and treat the other person.
18:59
Speaker 2: Like they're disposable. They say, I hate that. Yeah.
19:02
Speaker 1: And yet, casual sex is also, I suppose... to some extent,
19:11
Speaker 1: going to make the person feel like they're not chosen, right?
19:16
Speaker 1: Or are they chosen? See that, do you ever want,
19:18
Speaker 1: do you ever like, I kind of want to be
19:20
Speaker 1: chosen by everyone. And then, you know, have the prerogative
19:24
Speaker 1: to see whether or not I choose that. I can
19:26
Speaker 1: totally see the merits of casual sex and everything. But
19:30
Speaker 1: do we not all have that deep desire to be
19:34
Speaker 1: chosen for someone to drop everything else to be with us?
19:37
Speaker 1: to be willing to take care of us when we're sick. Like,
19:40
Speaker 1: what are the boundaries for someone who's in a casual
19:43
Speaker 1: encounter where they're just not, they don't owe you that stuff,
19:46
Speaker 1: you know?
19:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, you see, again, I, and maybe it is it's
19:50
Speaker 2: a little bit of a detriment but I think I
19:52
Speaker 2: am hyper hyper independent right and I like things a
19:56
Speaker 2: certain way I like taking care of myself especially when
20:00
Speaker 2: I'm sick I do not want anyone around me which
20:02
Speaker 2: I know is horrible like I mean of course it's
20:04
Speaker 2: not that I'm not willing to take help or like
20:06
Speaker 2: of course if a friend shows up to you know
20:08
Speaker 2: like bring me soup or take care of me Of
20:11
Speaker 2: course those things are great and to be I don't
20:14
Speaker 2: know if I I necessarily feel these feelings of I
20:17
Speaker 2: want to be chosen or I want to be Made
20:21
Speaker 2: your first priority. Of course, it feels great and it
20:23
Speaker 2: feels nice, you know when that happens But I think
20:27
Speaker 2: it's also something that you know you can find a
20:29
Speaker 2: way to live without if that makes sense and then
20:32
Speaker 2: I think I do see a just being self-sufficient and fully,
20:36
Speaker 2: fully independent, uh, doing a lot more good to me than,
20:40
Speaker 2: than being, you know, in a, in a relationship that
20:43
Speaker 2: seems codependent or that seems like I constantly need to be,
20:49
Speaker 2: sorry to say like validated, you know, by a partner
20:52
Speaker 2: or someone else for me to feel good about myself.
20:55
Speaker 1: Right.
20:55
Speaker 2: So I, yeah, I think I am able to see
20:58
Speaker 2: those things apart. And then that's why I think, uh,
21:03
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, maybe that's why I'm not, I don't know,
21:07
Speaker 2: struggling with like not being chosen or like, you know,
21:10
Speaker 2: being able to tell somebody that, hey, I think you're
21:12
Speaker 2: great and I think you deserve somebody much better than
21:15
Speaker 2: I am.
21:16
Speaker 1: It's not you, it's me.
21:17
Speaker 2: But it works.
21:18
Speaker 1: But I mean, it's a line, right? Don't you think
21:20
Speaker 1: it means, it's just, I'm just not that into you.
21:24
Speaker 2: Yes. And it could also mean, you know, I, I
21:29
Speaker 2: really genuinely wish the best for you. And yeah, like again, I.
21:33
Speaker 1: You deserve someone better is a lie. Come on.
21:36
Speaker 2: Is it not?
21:36
Speaker 1: Isn't it a bit of a lie?
21:38
Speaker 2: I think it's rooted in some version of self-awareness that
21:42
Speaker 2: makes you like, you know.
21:44
Speaker 1: You deserve someone who can give you what I can't.
21:46
Speaker 2: That's what we're raising. Venture is subjective. Okay, sure.
21:49
Speaker 1: So Pratul, in this article you wrote called A Baby
21:53
Speaker 1: Queer's Guide to Surviving Mumbai, you called Mumbai the capital
21:56
Speaker 1: of situationships. Please explain.
22:00
Speaker 2: Okay.
22:01
Speaker 1: Wow.
22:01
Speaker 2: I didn't know you were going to quote me on
22:02
Speaker 2: my written words.
22:05
Speaker 1: Highly quotable.
22:06
Speaker 2: Thank you. I mean, I think as somebody who has
22:12
Speaker 2: tried to date casually and also non-casually, especially in the city,
22:17
Speaker 2: I think Mumbai as a city, and you've heard these things, right?
22:22
Speaker 2: It's almost like a stereotype about the city that it
22:25
Speaker 2: never sleeps and it's too fast and it's constantly moving
22:28
Speaker 2: and running and all of those things, right? And I
22:30
Speaker 2: think that is so ingrained in the fabric of people here,
22:34
Speaker 2: even if those same people are also looking for love
22:38
Speaker 2: and sex and other meaningful connections. Yeah, I think that hyper-independence,
22:45
Speaker 2: I would credit to the city in a way that
22:48
Speaker 2: I think I became the way I am because of
22:51
Speaker 2: being able to build a life and career here. And
22:54
Speaker 2: I think that kind of, you know, I see myself
22:58
Speaker 2: getting a little bit impatient with people once in a
23:01
Speaker 2: while where I'm just like, I don't have time for this. Like,
23:03
Speaker 2: you know, can we wrap this up, right? So I
23:06
Speaker 2: think more often than not, I think you try your intentions,
23:10
Speaker 2: you know, if they're all in the right place, you
23:13
Speaker 2: try to like explore something that can be a little
23:16
Speaker 2: bit more than casual or a little bit more serious
23:19
Speaker 2: or whatever. And then ultimately it turns into a situationship
23:23
Speaker 2: where your friends or you like talk once in a
23:24
Speaker 2: while or, you know, Again, if they are chill about it,
23:28
Speaker 2: then you would possibly hook up once in a while
23:29
Speaker 2: and then it stays just there, right? I truly personally
23:33
Speaker 2: believe that Mumbai is capital city of situations. People are busy.
23:39
Speaker 1: They want to keep their options open. They are afraid
23:44
Speaker 1: of making long-term commitments because who knows what's going to
23:46
Speaker 1: happen tomorrow. And they have to put themselves first. I
23:49
Speaker 1: would agree.
23:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
23:50
Speaker 1: I also think novelty. Like, I think Mumbai definitely offers
23:54
Speaker 1: you a lot of experiences and people want to, you know,
23:58
Speaker 1: have them all. Yeah. Perhaps in a small town, you're
24:01
Speaker 1: not spoiled for choice and so you, quote-unquote, settle. Would
24:04
Speaker 1: you still choose who you've chosen if you had more options? Right?
24:08
Speaker 1: That's a question many people won't answer very often.
24:11
Speaker 2: Why is wanting it all or having it all considered
24:15
Speaker 2: such a bad thing? Like, I want to ask you, though.
24:18
Speaker 2: Is that so... terrible for me to, you know, aspire
24:22
Speaker 2: to have everything, like, you know, whatever that means.
24:26
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's difficult to have everything everywhere
24:30
Speaker 1: all at once, right? I also wonder, as the woman
24:33
Speaker 1: who's lived most of my life as a straight woman, like,
24:36
Speaker 1: do I want all of these? Like, really? I mean,
24:40
Speaker 1: it's a lot of pretty mediocre choices, as you were saying.
24:43
Speaker 1: So I also am quite content alone. But I do think...
24:46
Speaker 1: I do love love. I have fallen head over heels
24:49
Speaker 1: in love sometimes. And then I'm just not really thinking
24:52
Speaker 1: about anyone else. Even if it's short-lived and soon enough
24:54
Speaker 1: you do. But for that time, I do like being
24:57
Speaker 1: all in. It makes me feel alive.
25:00
Speaker 2: Okay, I agree with you there. You've actually reminded me
25:05
Speaker 2: about the time that I have been in love and
25:08
Speaker 2: how amazing that feels. And I think, again, just having
25:11
Speaker 2: somebody in your corner that you know understands you, is
25:13
Speaker 2: going to be there for you. It's actually really sweet and,
25:17
Speaker 2: you know, love matters, Lisa.
25:18
Speaker 1: Love matters! Yes! Okay, perfect segue.
25:21
Speaker 2: I was just.
25:22
Speaker 1: Popping up the little truth or myth rapid fire we're
25:27
Speaker 1: going to do. Okay, so I'm going to throw you
25:28
Speaker 1: some prompts and you tell me whether you think there's
25:30
Speaker 1: truth to it or it's a total myth.
25:32
Speaker 2: Okay, let's spill.
25:33
Speaker 1: Okay, women always get more emotionally attached.
25:37
Speaker 2: False. Yeah, no. I think it's an archaic idea that
25:41
Speaker 2: we've been taught over and over again and I think
25:45
Speaker 2: men equally get emotionally attached. Sometimes I think men have
25:50
Speaker 2: a terrible sort of grip, you know, on their emotions
25:54
Speaker 2: and how they sort of.
25:55
Speaker 1: Can be very possessive also.
25:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I don't think so it's
25:59
Speaker 2: a gendered thing. I think humans get emotionally.
26:02
Speaker 1: Humans get emotionally attached. Yeah. Okay. You can sleep with
26:05
Speaker 1: someone for a year and still call it casual.
26:08
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
26:09
Speaker 1: Sleeping together on the first date changes the relationship. Yes. Yes.
26:14
Speaker 2: Now I need to know a quick answer.
26:18
Speaker 1: Why does it change if you change things if you
26:20
Speaker 1: sleep on the first day?
26:22
Speaker 2: I think it takes the anticipation that you'll keep building
26:27
Speaker 2: in your head. What is it going to be like?
26:28
Speaker 2: Is it going to be good? Is it going to
26:29
Speaker 2: be bad or whatever? How does it change things? I
26:32
Speaker 2: personally think it just makes the connection stronger and a
26:38
Speaker 2: lot less muddled with like, you know, just again, ambiguity
26:41
Speaker 2: and just like, you know, things that, oh, the yearning
26:44
Speaker 2: and you know is it good is it bad this
26:46
Speaker 2: is going to be great like all of those things
26:47
Speaker 2: right so i think it's a lot less uh it's
26:49
Speaker 2: pressure free to just like i don't want to get
26:52
Speaker 2: it over with but just like you know get it
26:54
Speaker 2: out of the way like you don't try it like
26:55
Speaker 2: you know you.
26:56
Speaker 1: Figure out whether you do in fact want to see
26:58
Speaker 1: each other again.
26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah or and it's important i think you can.
27:02
Speaker 1: Stay friends after great casual sex.
27:06
Speaker 2: Yes absolutely yeah.
27:09
Speaker 1: Sex always complicates things.
27:11
Speaker 2: It does it really does Okay, so I have a
27:14
Speaker 2: general thumb rule that I don't have sex with your friends,
27:19
Speaker 2: which is going to sound so contradictory to everything that
27:22
Speaker 2: I've been saying so far.
27:23
Speaker 1: I know, right?
27:24
Speaker 2: What I mean is, I think if there are people
27:26
Speaker 2: in your life that you know are really good friends
27:30
Speaker 2: and like somebody that you enjoy having as like, you know,
27:34
Speaker 2: a friend, as a company or whatever, don't have sex
27:37
Speaker 2: with them, right? And it's, it's really not that difficult
27:42
Speaker 2: like if I don't want to have sex with somebody
27:44
Speaker 2: I can find a way to like you know not
27:45
Speaker 2: do it because I think that's where I think I'm
27:50
Speaker 2: a lot more afraid to lose good friends because of
27:55
Speaker 2: that one drunken night that you like fooled around or
27:59
Speaker 2: whatever and then you know the awkwardness has settled in
28:01
Speaker 2: or like you know now one of us have feelings
28:04
Speaker 2: or any of those like kind of things right so
28:06
Speaker 2: yeah sex does complicate things in matters like those Um,
28:12
Speaker 2: but yeah, other than that, uh, it's great. I have
28:15
Speaker 2: more of it.
28:18
Speaker 1: Dating apps have made casual sex easier. Um, easier.
28:24
Speaker 2: I think it's just, it's, it's a little bit more accessible. Sure.
28:29
Speaker 2: I think for gay men, if I will, or even like,
28:32
Speaker 2: let's say, you know, queer trans people, I think like
28:35
Speaker 2: apps like Grindr, for example, it's a sex shop. There
28:38
Speaker 2: is no other way for me to put it, right?
28:39
Speaker 2: Like I, can download an app today and I have
28:43
Speaker 2: to also then be able to like take tasteful nudes
28:46
Speaker 2: of myself to be able to like you know speak
28:48
Speaker 2: to somebody because then you know that's like an instant
28:50
Speaker 2: like oh no if you're not willing to share naked
28:53
Speaker 2: pictures and why are you even here right which is
28:55
Speaker 2: great I think yes sure we were a little bit
28:58
Speaker 2: more sex positive and sex accepting and you know all
29:00
Speaker 2: of those things doesn't take away the fact that it
29:07
Speaker 2: still is really difficult to like have you know, just
29:11
Speaker 2: sex that you enjoy with somebody without really putting in
29:16
Speaker 2: the work. So it's not purely transactional. Like, yes, I
29:19
Speaker 2: can be on an app and buy apples. Like, you can.
29:24
Speaker 1: Ah, yes.
29:24
Speaker 2: Okay.
29:26
Speaker 1: Young people today are having way more casual sex than
29:28
Speaker 1: their parents did.
29:30
Speaker 2: Um, I think the statistics are strange about this. From
29:34
Speaker 2: what I keep hearing is that, oh, Gen Z is
29:36
Speaker 2: not having any sex. Which I'm just like, what a waste.
29:40
Speaker 2: I mean, people are lying in these statistics-based questions. Like,
29:44
Speaker 2: whoever is coming to you with a form and asking
29:46
Speaker 2: you that, hey, are you having casual sex? And you're
29:47
Speaker 2: just like, straight up, no. And I think that's what's
29:49
Speaker 2: cueing these numbers. But yes, I would believe and would
29:55
Speaker 2: think that, yes, young people, people my generation, even slightly younger,
30:00
Speaker 2: are having marginally a little bit more casual sex than
30:05
Speaker 2: their parents did. It's also, again, the matter of like,
30:09
Speaker 2: not options, but just again, like I think your life
30:11
Speaker 2: was pre-decided for you for at least the generations before us, right?
30:16
Speaker 2: Where you knew that, okay, somebody will find you a
30:19
Speaker 2: boy or a girl and you'll have to marry and
30:20
Speaker 2: start a family and sex would be considered deviant in
30:24
Speaker 2: a way. Yeah, I think young people have a slightly
30:28
Speaker 2: better outlook towards sex, which is great. uh if they're
30:32
Speaker 2: not using that to their advantage and that's silly i
30:36
Speaker 2: think they should.
30:37
Speaker 1: Okay last one do you think it's easier to have
30:41
Speaker 1: casual sex in your 20s than your 30s.
30:45
Speaker 2: It's easier to have good sex in your 30s and
30:49
Speaker 2: it's easier to it's actually you know what in your
30:52
Speaker 2: 20s nothing is easy i think it's just yes you're
30:55
Speaker 2: young you recover faster from everything like whether it's alcohol
30:59
Speaker 2: or like a bad relationship or whatever but I think
31:03
Speaker 2: in your 20s you just don't know any better so
31:05
Speaker 2: you sign up for literally anything and everything I think
31:08
Speaker 2: the experiences you gain in your 20s will shape the
31:12
Speaker 2: way that you approach your life in your 30s that's
31:15
Speaker 2: I'm 30 something now to specify my age but yeah
31:20
Speaker 2: I think the connections, the sex all of those things
31:24
Speaker 2: that I am exploring now are far more satisfying, rewarding.
31:32
Speaker 1: You know yourself better.
31:33
Speaker 2: Definitely, than what I did when I was in my 20s.
31:37
Speaker 1: To anyone tuning in, I'd love to know whether you
31:40
Speaker 1: think sex can really be casual. Tell us in the comments.
31:43
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the emotional invoice that sometimes comes with
31:47
Speaker 1: casual sex, whether we like it or not. Sometimes it
31:50
Speaker 1: can seem like it's all fun and games. And then
31:52
Speaker 1: before you know it, you're feeling attachment or you're not
31:55
Speaker 1: hearing back from them or you're getting a massive bill of,
31:59
Speaker 1: you know, comparison, rejection. be tricky right yeah so we've
32:07
Speaker 1: talked about the pros but let's get into the cons
32:10
Speaker 1: of it have you ever found it difficult to separate
32:12
Speaker 1: your emotions from your casual relationships have you been the
32:17
Speaker 1: one who likes the other person more that's a.
32:21
Speaker 2: Good question um i think if i can give you
32:26
Speaker 2: this in an example of my experience of being in
32:30
Speaker 2: an open relationship right again the big joke is that
32:34
Speaker 2: an open relationship? One person is in a relationship and
32:36
Speaker 2: the other person is open. And I guess I have
32:39
Speaker 2: been guilty of being, I guess, a little bit on
32:42
Speaker 2: both sides. It does, of course, it does take a
32:46
Speaker 2: toll on you when you are a lot more committed and,
32:49
Speaker 2: you know, wanting to build something that's, you know, serious and,
32:53
Speaker 2: you know, all of those great things.
32:55
Speaker 1: What about just like jealousy, insecurity? Have you managed to
32:58
Speaker 1: navigate these emotions such that you no longer feel them
33:02
Speaker 1: at all?
33:03
Speaker 2: Of course I've felt feelings of jealousy and you know
33:05
Speaker 2: obviously who isn't insecure once in a while especially when
33:07
Speaker 2: it comes to you know about a partner right like
33:12
Speaker 2: but ultimately I think it is how secure I am
33:16
Speaker 2: with myself is what's gonna sort of really change you
33:21
Speaker 2: know that situation for me a little bit What about ghosting?
33:24
Speaker 1: Have you ever been ghosted? Or do you ghost?
33:28
Speaker 2: I have been accused of ghosting somebody but Here's my thing.
33:33
Speaker 2: I don't think so. It is ghosting if I am
33:36
Speaker 2: choosing to not engage with you anymore. Does that make sense?
33:39
Speaker 2: I think people can feel entitled to get a response
33:44
Speaker 2: just because they've texted you. Even when you've made it
33:46
Speaker 2: clear that you no longer want to. That. And I
33:48
Speaker 2: think it's a matter of, like, again, you not realizing
33:51
Speaker 2: that there are two people and two experiences and two
33:54
Speaker 2: perspectives here, right?
33:55
Speaker 3: So.
33:57
Speaker 2: you know, we could have been on a date and
34:00
Speaker 2: it was, from my experience, a horrible date. Like, you know,
34:02
Speaker 2: you didn't ask me a single question about me. You were,
34:05
Speaker 2: you know, you were only focused and interested in speaking
34:08
Speaker 2: about yourself. I also get a whiff of like, you know,
34:12
Speaker 2: you wanting to make this into something that it is not.
34:15
Speaker 2: You're being hasty. You're pushing me beyond my comfort to,
34:20
Speaker 2: you know, do things that I'm not comfortable doing. And
34:23
Speaker 2: those are grounds for me to say that, hey, okay,
34:26
Speaker 2: this was great. Maybe we'll try and see each other later,
34:28
Speaker 2: but I don't think so. This is going to go anywhere, right?
34:30
Speaker 2: If you made that very clear verbally in like, you know,
34:35
Speaker 2: while texting, while, you know, hanging with each other or whatever.
34:38
Speaker 2: Beyond that, I don't think so. I need to over-explain myself.
34:41
Speaker 2: And I think not all ghosting is ghosting. Sometimes it
34:46
Speaker 2: is just.
34:46
Speaker 1: Boundaries?
34:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's me setting a healthy boundary that I don't
34:50
Speaker 2: think so. Like this is something that I can pursue further.
34:52
Speaker 1: If it's casual, don't take things personally?
34:54
Speaker 2: That, and yeah, easier said than done, I understand. I
34:57
Speaker 2: think people, I don't want to say the word rejection,
35:00
Speaker 2: but I guess people deal with rejection, you know, in
35:02
Speaker 2: different ways. And again, I can just be nice about it,
35:07
Speaker 2: but like, you know, there's not much.
35:08
Speaker 1: Have you ever been in a position where you got
35:11
Speaker 1: feelings and you weren't really receiving the level of effort
35:15
Speaker 1: or commitment that you hoped for? Yes.
35:19
Speaker 2: My first homosexual relationship, was possibly my longest relationship that
35:25
Speaker 2: lasted about, I want to say, four or five years.
35:28
Speaker 2: And through the course of that relationship, obviously, things got
35:32
Speaker 2: pretty serious in the sense that, you know, we were
35:36
Speaker 2: living together. I met his parents, he met my parents
35:38
Speaker 2: or whatever. I could see a potential future and I
35:41
Speaker 2: could see us building a life together because everything felt like,
35:47
Speaker 2: you know, it was in... being with the right person,
35:49
Speaker 2: the right time, the right place, all of those things.
35:51
Speaker 1: Right.
35:52
Speaker 2: Um, until they realized that they don't want to be
35:55
Speaker 2: in the country anymore and they moved away. Um, and yeah,
36:01
Speaker 2: that kind of leaves you with all of those feelings
36:04
Speaker 2: and insecurities and, you know, like, Oh, do I feel abandoned? Uh,
36:09
Speaker 2: do I feel like I, you know, you could have
36:10
Speaker 2: communicated better. Uh, was there a way for you to
36:13
Speaker 2: salvage and save this relationship? Even, you know, across continents
36:18
Speaker 2: or whatever um so yeah I think that does something
36:23
Speaker 2: to you it did a number on me I think
36:24
Speaker 2: a little bit and I I'm still sort of yeah
36:28
Speaker 2: like finding ways to you know be in something that
36:32
Speaker 2: could potentially get that serious again.
36:34
Speaker 1: So was that a monogamous relationship.
36:36
Speaker 2: That was non-monogamous so I mean again like most gay
36:39
Speaker 2: relationships I think it started off being monogamous to a
36:42
Speaker 2: degree where we're obviously exclusive to each other and because
36:44
Speaker 2: again in a new relationship you don't you want to
36:47
Speaker 2: give that person, you know, that kind of time and
36:50
Speaker 2: respect and all of those things. So I think it
36:51
Speaker 2: was monogamous to begin with. And then ultimately, both gay. So, yeah, like.
36:58
Speaker 1: But you were like each other's primary partners.
37:00
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
37:00
Speaker 1: This idea.
37:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
37:02
Speaker 1: A whole modern ecosystem together. Yes.
37:04
Speaker 2: And it went through like some like, I don't want
37:07
Speaker 2: to say like ground rules or whatever, but iterations that
37:09
Speaker 2: every month or every few months, something would happen and
37:14
Speaker 2: that would kind of make us want to sit together
37:16
Speaker 2: and just be like, okay, how are we going to
37:18
Speaker 2: deal with this, right? So for example, we were both
37:21
Speaker 2: obviously living in Mumbai at that time and both had
37:24
Speaker 2: active lives and careers. So I think one of the
37:27
Speaker 2: ground rules many, many months later came in that, okay,
37:30
Speaker 2: we're possibly not going to be exploring other romantic connections
37:34
Speaker 2: in the city. So if one of us is traveling
37:35
Speaker 2: or whatever, sure, be on the app and meet somebody
37:37
Speaker 2: if you want to. And as long as, you know,
37:41
Speaker 2: they stay wherever they are. um I think over time
37:45
Speaker 2: another sort of ground rule that came up because of
37:48
Speaker 2: another instance was how do we feel about exes like
37:51
Speaker 2: of course open is open right like who's to say
37:54
Speaker 2: that you know you you can't possibly uh once in
37:57
Speaker 2: a while hook up with an ex that you are
37:59
Speaker 2: like you know casually open to like you know having
38:02
Speaker 2: sex with once in a while right uh so that
38:04
Speaker 2: kind of became a little bit of a deal breaker
38:06
Speaker 2: in the relationship that okay no exes no like you
38:09
Speaker 2: know and That makes sense, right? I mean, in that relationship,
38:12
Speaker 2: I think it made sense. So yeah, I think, again,
38:15
Speaker 2: it was a lot of communicating and sometimes over communicating
38:18
Speaker 2: to really come to, you know, like, okay, this is
38:23
Speaker 2: as primary partners, as you mentioned, that this is what
38:26
Speaker 2: works for us.
38:27
Speaker 1: So basically, there is, there can be an emotional invoice,
38:30
Speaker 1: as opposed to any sort of relationship. And even with
38:33
Speaker 1: casual sex, especially if people's expectations aren't quite aligned, someone
38:38
Speaker 1: can come away with a slightly steeper emotional invoice than
38:41
Speaker 1: the other, I suppose.
38:41
Speaker 2: Yep. It's never fun to be on the receiving end
38:45
Speaker 2: of that. Actually, either way, I mean, I shouldn't just... Whatever.
38:50
Speaker 2: It's not just one person's responsibility to do that emotional
38:54
Speaker 2: heavy lifting, right? So, yeah. But I think ultimately you
38:59
Speaker 2: should know what you signed up for. And if it's
39:02
Speaker 2: not fun, then.
39:06
Speaker 1: And I suppose at least aspiring to be kind and
39:09
Speaker 1: gentle with each other even when you both don't want
39:12
Speaker 1: the same things. Ways that that can be handled that
39:15
Speaker 1: leave each other feeling more intact rather than less intact
39:20
Speaker 1: at the end, right?
39:20
Speaker 2: I agree.
39:21
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to play a game called green flag,
39:24
Speaker 1: red flag or run.
39:25
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
39:26
Speaker 1: I'm going to throw phrases to you and you'll have
39:29
Speaker 1: to say green flag, red flag or run. No explanations
39:33
Speaker 1: unless you really want to. Okay, so they say, I'm
39:36
Speaker 1: not looking for anything serious.
39:42
Speaker 2: Green flag.
39:44
Speaker 1: They say, I don't believe in labels.
39:47
Speaker 2: Guilty of saying that so you know what green.
39:50
Speaker 1: Flag they say i'll text when i'm free.
39:54
Speaker 2: This is feeling like a personal attack i think green flag.
39:58
Speaker 1: They'll say let's just see where this goes.
40:02
Speaker 2: Green flag they.
40:04
Speaker 1: Say i'm emotionally unavailable oh red flag yeah they say
40:10
Speaker 1: my ex is my best friend um you know.
40:13
Speaker 2: What red flag yeah i don't know if exes can
40:16
Speaker 2: be They can be friends. Best friends is a bit
40:20
Speaker 2: like much, like really make some other friends.
40:23
Speaker 1: They say, I don't want commitment, but I don't want
40:26
Speaker 1: you dating anyone else.
40:28
Speaker 2: Oh, no, run. Run, run. Yeah.
40:32
Speaker 1: Thanks. That was quick. Speaking of safety of the emotional
40:37
Speaker 1: and physical kind and trying to make casual sex such
40:41
Speaker 1: that people don't have to run. Let's talk about the
40:44
Speaker 1: practical toolkits that people may benefit from.
40:49
Speaker 3: Adopting, be it for the contraception and protection aspect of things,
40:55
Speaker 3: the consent, boundaries, communication aspect of things, even practices like aftercare.
41:03
Speaker 1: I think no matter where people stand on casual sex,
41:07
Speaker 1: it is likely that if you're sexually active, you may
41:09
Speaker 1: find yourself in a situation where you're having sex and
41:13
Speaker 1: it's not leading to a relationship or whatever it is.
41:15
Speaker 1: And there's ways you can go about your sexual explorations
41:18
Speaker 1: that just make things like, you know, kinder and safer
41:23
Speaker 1: and more comfortable for all. I remember reading this article
41:26
Speaker 1: where you said, always have gum, lube and an exit strategy.
41:30
Speaker 2: Yep.
41:30
Speaker 1: Yep. Right.
41:31
Speaker 2: And especially the exit strategy that I highlight. Yeah.
41:36
Speaker 1: Expound on that. Yes.
41:38
Speaker 2: I guess I think if I just had to go
41:41
Speaker 2: a little bit back in the day when i was
41:44
Speaker 2: in my 20s and i was a young naive soul
41:48
Speaker 2: uh i guess and that's the thing with like you
41:51
Speaker 2: would i think understand that when you speak uh so
41:54
Speaker 2: eloquently about it but i think uh having casual sex
41:58
Speaker 2: in india is it's a it's a it's a sport
42:01
Speaker 2: it's an it's an adventure right extreme sport right absolutely
42:05
Speaker 2: and of course but i think for women i think
42:08
Speaker 2: a lot harder because again safety concerns and all of
42:10
Speaker 2: those things right so i think um when I was
42:14
Speaker 2: in my twenties, I think sometimes I would put myself
42:16
Speaker 2: in situations that aren't necessarily the safest, obviously not just
42:21
Speaker 2: safe in terms of sexual health, but just safety for
42:23
Speaker 2: my life. Like, um, and I think that's a sense
42:28
Speaker 2: that I think I have developed over the years to,
42:30
Speaker 2: I guess, just, I guess, love myself enough to not
42:34
Speaker 2: put myself in situations that like ultimately are harmful for me. Um,
42:39
Speaker 2: And that's what I mean by having an exit strategy.
42:41
Speaker 2: I think I know that I do that. And I
42:43
Speaker 2: know a lot of my friends, especially my girlfriends, would
42:46
Speaker 2: do that where they would tell me that, oh, I'm
42:49
Speaker 2: going on a date. And of course, you share your
42:50
Speaker 2: location and all of those things. But then once in
42:53
Speaker 2: a while, they'd be like, oh, no, I might call
42:54
Speaker 2: you if in case a date's going horribly wrong. So
42:56
Speaker 2: I can just be like, well, actually, my friend has
42:58
Speaker 2: an emergency. I need to get out.
43:00
Speaker 1: What's the riskiest situation that you inadvertently found yourself in
43:05
Speaker 1: if you're comfortable sharing.
43:06
Speaker 2: Oh I mean I don't want to like trauma dump
43:10
Speaker 2: right away but it's gotten pretty bad I yeah I
43:15
Speaker 2: this was when I was let's say about must have
43:19
Speaker 2: been like 19 20 very very young and this was
43:24
Speaker 2: a time where again I think being gay was still
43:27
Speaker 2: criminalized to a great degree it wasn't uh, something that
43:31
Speaker 2: I could be on a podcast and talk about so openly. Um,
43:34
Speaker 2: and naturally they weren't really dating apps and as such.
43:37
Speaker 2: And again, you're, you know, when you're younger, you want
43:40
Speaker 2: to meet new people and you want to explore what
43:42
Speaker 2: this feeling is that you're feeling all the time. Uh,
43:45
Speaker 2: so you would find like listings. I'm still of that
43:48
Speaker 2: generation that I think technology was just starting to boom,
43:51
Speaker 2: but then we were still on the fringes of it, right?
43:53
Speaker 2: Where we would like find a newspaper ad sometimes where
43:57
Speaker 2: it would just be like, uh, So the joke would
44:00
Speaker 2: be like M2M. So that would be the code. And
44:03
Speaker 2: then it would be like someone's name and number or,
44:05
Speaker 2: you know, the location that they're in. So I started
44:08
Speaker 2: working pretty early on and I would travel to Navi
44:11
Speaker 2: Mumbai from Chamber for my workplace. And then I would
44:15
Speaker 2: have a few hours to kill by the time I
44:16
Speaker 2: would be done. So I thought, why not? Let me
44:19
Speaker 2: see if I can like meet somebody. Because again, I'm
44:22
Speaker 2: young and I'm like, you know, free or whatever. Uh,
44:25
Speaker 2: so I think through one of these listings online, very,
44:29
Speaker 2: very shady, I found somebody and I had like, like
44:33
Speaker 2: a basic phone. So I think whatever I call that number, uh,
44:37
Speaker 2: and it seemed like somebody who it felt like it
44:41
Speaker 2: was like, you know, somebody my age possibly. Um, and
44:45
Speaker 2: you know, he wanted to chat and then, you know,
44:47
Speaker 2: he mentioned that he lives not that far away from
44:49
Speaker 2: my workplace. So, you know, I could possibly come over
44:52
Speaker 2: and we could hang. Um, So I did. And things
44:57
Speaker 2: went south, like really, really bad. Like I, it was
45:01
Speaker 2: a full, it was like a scam network situation. So
45:04
Speaker 2: this very, firstly, obviously catfished. This was an older, old,
45:09
Speaker 2: much older man who was basically potentially trapping young boys
45:14
Speaker 2: and he would, like whatever he would possibly like extort
45:17
Speaker 2: them for money.
45:18
Speaker 1: How did you get out of that? Did you realize
45:21
Speaker 1: soon enough?
45:21
Speaker 2: It got, It got a little bit physical. Yeah, sorry, sorry. Whatever.
45:26
Speaker 2: Trigger warning. But there was a woman there.
45:30
Speaker 1: It was.
45:30
Speaker 2: Again, it was a full... Like, it was a trap, basically.
45:32
Speaker 1: Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry that you had to
45:34
Speaker 1: deal with this.
45:35
Speaker 2: It's fine. It's been many years. I'm over it now. But, yeah,
45:38
Speaker 2: I think... Long story short, again, it was a very,
45:42
Speaker 2: very scary situation. And I basically found myself just, like,
45:48
Speaker 2: grabbing my bag and this and then just, like, making
45:50
Speaker 2: a run for it. And then, obviously... it could have
45:53
Speaker 2: gotten much worse. And it has, I've heard like stories where,
45:56
Speaker 2: you know, people have been extorted for money. They've like,
45:59
Speaker 2: you know, private pictures get leaked and, you know, all
46:02
Speaker 2: of those things.
46:03
Speaker 1: Right.
46:03
Speaker 2: So I do feel in some way, I think a
46:07
Speaker 2: little bit lucky and blessed that it didn't get as bad.
46:10
Speaker 2: And then once I made a run for it and,
46:13
Speaker 2: you know, I was in a public place where I
46:15
Speaker 2: was a little bit safe, I obviously had a big cry.
46:19
Speaker 2: And I told myself, you're never going to put yourself
46:21
Speaker 2: in a situation like this. It is not worth it.
46:24
Speaker 2: And I didn't know any better. Like back then, again,
46:26
Speaker 2: you weren't really, I couldn't even share it with a friend.
46:28
Speaker 2: So I think I kept it with me for many,
46:30
Speaker 2: many years. And then ultimately, I think when I was,
46:33
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit more healed from it, I guess,
46:35
Speaker 2: is when I spoke to some people. And anytime I
46:39
Speaker 2: hear like another queer person or a friend of mine
46:41
Speaker 2: putting themselves in a situation which seems sketchy or which
46:45
Speaker 2: seems like this could lead to something that's a little
46:48
Speaker 2: bit like, not safe, you have to say something. You
46:52
Speaker 2: have to just make sure that you let them know
46:54
Speaker 2: that you've been through something like this and I hope
46:57
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen to you, but there are chances that
47:00
Speaker 2: it might. So just that.
47:03
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing this. And I think that
47:06
Speaker 1: it's so precious that you do share this and have
47:09
Speaker 1: written your baby queer survival guides. And I mean, a
47:12
Speaker 1: lot of the work I also want to do is
47:14
Speaker 1: to prevent people from going through the horrors that we
47:18
Speaker 1: might have been through with no one to tell us otherwise.
47:20
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
47:21
Speaker 1: But even stuff like contraception, for example, as a woman,
47:26
Speaker 1: I remember in my 20s, I would often have to
47:28
Speaker 1: negotiate condom use. Men would try and talk me out
47:32
Speaker 1: of using a condom and it would be like, why, dude?
47:34
Speaker 1: I could have an STI. You're not doing me a
47:35
Speaker 1: favor here. Do you find that protection and things are
47:42
Speaker 1: now given in casual sex encounters in your experience? Is
47:45
Speaker 1: it still kind of tricky?
47:46
Speaker 2: I think I mean, I think as a society, we're
47:49
Speaker 2: a lot more evolved and educated that, you know, there isn't,
47:53
Speaker 2: you know, you're not, if you're not asking somebody straight
47:56
Speaker 2: up the first time you're going to have sex with them,
47:58
Speaker 2: that are you safe? And it's not just a matter
48:01
Speaker 2: of me believing them, but like, I guess I can,
48:03
Speaker 2: somewhere you have to take their word for it.
48:05
Speaker 1: Do you think people are having STI tests regularly?
48:08
Speaker 2: Again, I, I hope they are. And if they're not,
48:11
Speaker 2: then that's terrible. But, uh, Definitely, I think there is.
48:14
Speaker 1: Are they using condoms? We're using condoms? Everyone's using condoms?
48:19
Speaker 2: No, not everyone. I would be... Yeah, I'm happy to
48:23
Speaker 2: report to you that I think PrEP has become a
48:27
Speaker 2: little bit of an option for people, gay people especially.
48:32
Speaker 1: People who don't know what PrEP is, would you like
48:34
Speaker 1: to explain?
48:35
Speaker 2: Yes, PrEP is something that is a preventative drug for...
48:41
Speaker 2: HIV and AIDS and, again, a few other STIs and
48:46
Speaker 2: STDs that you could potentially, you know, expose yourself to.
48:50
Speaker 2: It isn't 100% safe, which most contraception isn't, but it
48:56
Speaker 2: does reduce the risk considerably if you are somebody who,
48:59
Speaker 2: let's say, might have unprotected sex, you know, or may
49:05
Speaker 2: have had it. And it's never... It's something that you
49:08
Speaker 2: obviously have to consult a doctor. They can prescribe you,
49:11
Speaker 2: you know, the medication that you have to be on
49:16
Speaker 2: and you have to like sort of again like any
49:18
Speaker 2: other the medication that you have to be like you
49:20
Speaker 2: know uh sort of have a routine for it and
49:23
Speaker 2: again it completely depends on your uh how active you
49:27
Speaker 2: are sexually right um there's definitely that um I think.
49:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, many people don't even realize this, that medication has
49:35
Speaker 1: evolved so much in the last two decades or so,
49:39
Speaker 1: where HIV was considered at one point incurable, and today
49:43
Speaker 1: there's medication that can prevent the contraction and transmission of
49:48
Speaker 1: the virus to the degree that somebody even who does
49:51
Speaker 1: live with HIV could have a... Pretty active. Active sexual life,
49:56
Speaker 1: even have a child without transmitting the virus, things like that.
49:59
Speaker 1: I think people don't realize and really there's so little
50:02
Speaker 1: information that it is a nice opportunity to inform people
50:05
Speaker 1: that PrEP exists and that today... I.
50:08
Speaker 2: Think just as a practice also, if I do end
50:11
Speaker 2: up in a committed, some version of a committed relationship,
50:15
Speaker 2: I think... getting tested together is something that, you know,
50:19
Speaker 2: has been recommended.
50:20
Speaker 1: Don't you think that should become casual? I want to
50:22
Speaker 1: make STI testing casual. Just casually go get an STI
50:25
Speaker 1: test together, right?
50:26
Speaker 2: You don't even have to go anywhere. They come to you.
50:28
Speaker 1: They come to you. Unfortunately, it's a bit expensive. I
50:31
Speaker 1: wish STI testing was more affordable to all. It's actually not.
50:35
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole panel can cost like 10,000 rupees.
50:38
Speaker 2: Girl, what service are you using?
50:40
Speaker 1: Girl, what service are you using?
50:42
Speaker 2: I will hook you up. It's actually not that expensive.
50:45
Speaker 2: I mean, of course, it is.
50:46
Speaker 1: Did you do the complete panel? Yeah. Okay.
50:49
Speaker 2: It's quite extensive.
50:50
Speaker 1: We'll trade numbers. Testing service. See, we're being casual here.
50:54
Speaker 1: Most people wouldn't discuss this on camera, right? For some reason,
50:57
Speaker 1: people are embarrassed to even admit to having an STI
50:59
Speaker 1: test when really it's just the most responsible thing to do.
51:01
Speaker 1: If you're having sex, use protection, have tests, get tested. Like,
51:04
Speaker 1: this is basic. We would do this for COVID or,
51:07
Speaker 1: you know, any other type of health event. I don't
51:09
Speaker 1: know why we're so... coy and embarrassed about being proactive.
51:14
Speaker 2: It's the slut shaming of it all. I think that's
51:16
Speaker 2: what it is. We're so fearful of somebody like just
51:18
Speaker 2: calling us out on our slut game, which I'm just like,
51:21
Speaker 2: you know what, just take some pride in being a
51:22
Speaker 2: slut once in a while. It's okay.
51:24
Speaker 1: You'd rather be a safe one than an unsafe one, right?
51:28
Speaker 2: That.
51:29
Speaker 1: And anyway, there's no shame in having consensual and safe sex.
51:34
Speaker 1: That's a wonderful thing. Okay. Do you feel that there's
51:38
Speaker 1: any other items in the toolkit that could help anyone
51:41
Speaker 1: who's curious about casual sex and doesn't know where to begin?
51:44
Speaker 1: Lube for starters, but anything else, emotional or physical tools
51:49
Speaker 1: that can help navigate this arena safely and comfortably?
51:53
Speaker 2: Let me think. I think sometimes most of my advice
51:58
Speaker 2: for anything seems like just like, general life advice but
52:01
Speaker 2: i think number one is to obviously just surround yourself
52:03
Speaker 2: with good people uh you know like that can be
52:09
Speaker 2: your emotional support that can be uh you know like
52:13
Speaker 2: people that you can just sit across the couch and
52:14
Speaker 2: like have a conversation with i think that's very very
52:16
Speaker 2: important and uh and i'm i'm talking about this not
52:20
Speaker 2: in the sense that okay your your sexual connection with
52:23
Speaker 2: the people that you're choosing to have casual sex with
52:25
Speaker 2: other people that need to do this outside of the
52:28
Speaker 2: the romantic and sexual connection that you're exploring have your
52:33
Speaker 2: you know your core set of friends and people that
52:36
Speaker 2: you trust and you care like they care for you
52:38
Speaker 2: you care for them um i think people are all
52:42
Speaker 2: we have is what i think sometimes like you know
52:45
Speaker 2: really it kind of makes me uh like if I'm
52:50
Speaker 2: having like a loopy day and I'm feeling like, you know,
52:52
Speaker 2: anxious or whatever, whatever, I think just finding that comfort
52:55
Speaker 2: with my friends and my chosen family is very, very
52:57
Speaker 2: important to me. It does me a great deal of comforting.
53:03
Speaker 2: And I think it will also other people if they really,
53:06
Speaker 2: really invest in those friendships and those relationships. So I think, yeah,
53:10
Speaker 2: before you can, what a cliche, before you can like,
53:14
Speaker 2: you know, find love in other places. Obviously, find a
53:17
Speaker 2: way to love yourself, love your friends, you know, surround
53:20
Speaker 2: yourself with good company.
53:21
Speaker 1: Feel whole already.
53:23
Speaker 2: That.
53:23
Speaker 1: Rather than seeking. I suppose casual sex shouldn't become a, yeah,
53:27
Speaker 1: a coping mechanism. It's not, it can, you know, because
53:31
Speaker 1: of the ease of access, it can sometimes be like
53:33
Speaker 1: you're not dealing with it. This is your escape.
53:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that's definitely one and it doesn't
53:39
Speaker 2: necessarily have to apply to just casual sex, but in life,
53:41
Speaker 2: I think it will do you good to just have
53:44
Speaker 2: a good set of friends right um now a little
53:48
Speaker 2: bit more specific to uh having casual sex i guess
53:53
Speaker 2: hygiene i mean i don't want to give you like
53:56
Speaker 2: very elementary basic things no no.
53:57
Speaker 1: It's never too elementary honestly.
53:59
Speaker 2: That i think uh have a good sense of what
54:03
Speaker 2: personal hygiene means to you for yourself and i think
54:07
Speaker 2: once you have that then it's so much I guess
54:12
Speaker 2: it just instantly makes things so much easier for you
54:15
Speaker 2: to also be able to see through when someone's not
54:19
Speaker 2: matching your level of hygiene that you expect, right? Yeah,
54:26
Speaker 2: just like... Have a shower. Yeah, try a deodorant. Yeah, exactly.
54:32
Speaker 2: Wash your teeth.
54:33
Speaker 1: I don't know why it needs to be said, but
54:35
Speaker 1: evidence does suggest you guys need a reminder sometimes.
54:38
Speaker 2: I think Number three and very important, which I think
54:42
Speaker 2: might be speaking to the statistic of why Gen Z
54:44
Speaker 2: is not having that much sex. So in the gay community,
54:48
Speaker 2: there's a big joke about, do you have place?
54:50
Speaker 1: Ah, like, do you even have a home, right? Where
54:54
Speaker 1: you can do this because you probably live with your family.
54:57
Speaker 2: That. So I think young people, it's great that you have,
55:03
Speaker 2: you know, a parent, like whatever, you have a home
55:07
Speaker 2: that your parents have given you and, you know, you
55:09
Speaker 2: feel taken care of or whatever but it also comes
55:14
Speaker 2: with it's a little bit of a trade-off right you
55:16
Speaker 2: can you know of course enjoy that beautiful family home
55:20
Speaker 2: that you have but don't discount the fact that you
55:23
Speaker 2: still don't have a place to have casual sex if
55:25
Speaker 2: you want to once in a.
55:26
Speaker 1: While or just privacy in general right you can't even
55:28
Speaker 1: masturbate in peace very.
55:30
Speaker 2: That so yeah I think if you can ultimately find
55:34
Speaker 2: a way to where people get space that build a
55:37
Speaker 2: life that uh you want for yourself i think it
55:40
Speaker 2: should definitely be built around a space that you can
55:44
Speaker 2: call your own a space where you can just like
55:46
Speaker 2: be your absolute you know.
55:49
Speaker 1: Truest self that when no one's watching yeah let.
55:52
Speaker 2: Your hair down put your feet up uh yeah and
55:55
Speaker 2: then i have my own rules and it feels really
55:58
Speaker 2: great like of course like you know i mean no
56:01
Speaker 2: brainer there but uh I think, again, for somebody who's
56:05
Speaker 2: as independent and as self-sufficient as I try to be,
56:09
Speaker 2: I think there is something really rewarding about taking care
56:12
Speaker 2: of a space that you call your own. And then,
56:15
Speaker 2: you know, having that agency over who you bring home
56:19
Speaker 2: and how you choose to spend time with them at home.
56:22
Speaker 2: Have the privacy that you want.
56:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. And just in general, I mean, Virginia Woolf was right,
56:26
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. Yeah. A room of your own. It
56:28
Speaker 1: really makes such a difference, even creatively and emotionally. And
56:32
Speaker 1: it's not just your sex pad. Just to have a
56:35
Speaker 1: space to spread your wings. It's been one of my
56:37
Speaker 1: great joys in my 30s to live by myself. Pratul,
56:41
Speaker 1: it's been so nice to have you on the show.
56:44
Speaker 2: It's been my honor and obviously lovely chatting with you
56:47
Speaker 2: as always.
56:47
Speaker 1: Do you have any, if you could just say one
56:49
Speaker 1: thing to your younger self as a word of advice
56:52
Speaker 1: before setting off to explore your journey of sexual self-discovery.
56:59
Speaker 1: What do you wish you'd known sooner?
57:01
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, just A, don't be so rigid about
57:07
Speaker 2: having to choose a lane or choose a label for yourself.
57:12
Speaker 2: I think that's, I think, yeah, it really does more
57:15
Speaker 2: harm to a young person. that they constantly have to
57:20
Speaker 2: conform and, you know, find themselves be segregated in boxes
57:24
Speaker 2: and neatly be told that you are this or you're
57:26
Speaker 2: that or whatever. Once you become your own person and
57:30
Speaker 2: you grow into your own, whatever it is, your queerness,
57:34
Speaker 2: your fabulousness, your, you know, your sex positiveness or whatever
57:38
Speaker 2: that may be. I think just a reminder to, you know,
57:44
Speaker 2: just be a lot more open to trying new things
57:49
Speaker 2: and don't try to follow the template that you think
57:52
Speaker 2: somebody has set for you already it's your life you
57:55
Speaker 2: can really go in in any direction that you want
58:00
Speaker 2: but as I said earlier just remember to have fun
58:04
Speaker 2: and be safe I.
58:05
Speaker 1: Love that we've come full circle Thank you, Pratul. Such
58:09
Speaker 1: a joy chatting with you. I hope that you too
58:12
Speaker 1: have enjoyed the show today. We'd love to hear your
58:15
Speaker 1: thoughts on casual sex in the comments. And if you
58:17
Speaker 1: want to write to us, you can do so at lovemattersatdw.com.
58:22
Speaker 1: Love Matters is produced by the Indian Express and DW,
58:25
Speaker 1: Germany's international broadcaster. I'm Lisa Mangeldas, and I believe love matters.