Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #326 Jason Flom with Octavius Williams

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#326 Jason Flom with Octavius Williams · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: In the fall of twenty ten, a Cleveland high school
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: basketball phenom named Octavius Williams had just begun his junior
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: year when his younger sister turned ten. Their father and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: his father's girlfriend threw a big party at their apartment
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: to celebrate on Halloween, bringing their blended family together. As
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: day turned into night, the children's party turned into an
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: adult party, and as things wound down, a fight began
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: outside between members of either family. Two people drew guns,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: and one man, Dennis Cole, ended up in the hospital
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: paralyzed from the waist down. Police were told that the
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: shooter was a young black man who had already fled
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: the scene.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: When they went.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Upstairs to speak with the partygoers in the apartment, they
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: found and arrested a young black man, seventeen year old
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Octavius Williams. The victim eventually stabilized and identified Octavius from
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: a photo array. Despite conflicting accounts of what happened during
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: the shooting, it appears the state had cleared they got
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: there man. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Today's story. Well, I'll just say Shakespeare could
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: have written this one, and it would rank up there
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: with some of the crazy plot twists and some of
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: his best work. And you're going to find out why
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: as we go along in today's episode. And without further ado,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: I want to introduce our guests, who have two guests today,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the man himself who lived through this absolutely bizarre and
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: insane sequence of events, Octavius Williams. Octavius, I'm happier here,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: but I'm sorry if you're here because of what happened
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: to you that brought you to this point. But anyway,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here, for sure. Thank you
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: for having me.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: With Octavius is Joanna Sanchez. And Joanna is the director
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: of the Wrongful Conviction Project at the office of the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Ohio Public Defender. So I imagine, Joanna, you have your
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: hands full and I'm glad that you are here to
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: share with us about this incredible story. So welcome to
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: the show. Thanks so much for having us and this story.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: This is a relatively recent case compared to some of
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: the cases. Listen, we have cases back from the seventies,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: but this one, this one happened just I mean, it's
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: a short time ago. It's also a long time we
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: go twenty eleven. Of course, this is Cuyahoga County and
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we've heard that name again and again on this podcast.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: That's sort of a hotbed of wrongful convictions. And I
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: want to go back Octavius to before this horrible night
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: where what started off as sounds like a joyous occasion
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: turned into this tragedy left some body paralyzed and put
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: your life on paralysis. Really, I mean, it's an awful
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: scenario all the way around. But your life before that
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: was full of promise. Tell us a little bit about
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the family dynamic and what was your life like growing up?
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: What were you into.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: On my life, he was said, like a regular life.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Like you know, my parents wise, everything was cool, even
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: though they was divorced. If we was living on the
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: West side, my dad was doing the West side. It
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: was just we was always close, you know, so it
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: was never a split time in between that we didn't
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: see each other.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Like I said, everything was cool. It was two households.
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: I always used to go to my dad house a
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: lot because we had a different bond than me and
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: my mom. Other than that, they decided to send me
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: to my own school because I guess they seen that
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: I had a different potential than my other siblings.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I understand you were like a super talented basketball player.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah? And still is, But like that
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: was my passion.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: Anybody in my family tell I was a golden ticket.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Let them tell it.
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  Speaker 3: Before I was incarcerated, I was attending this school called
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: Margaret Island is on Chester. They gave me a shot
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: to be on their team, and I took it. Didn't
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: though I was at good, you know, but you know,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: just enough to be scouted, you know when and out
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: of nowhere, it just taken away, you know.
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  Speaker 1: So you were you were in eleventh grade when this
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: when this, uh yeah, when it heard, Well, you were
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: coming up in your reputation. I mean, if it's reached
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: all the way up to New York on twenty twenty three,
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  Speaker 1: there must have been some excitement around your potential. So
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what happened that night.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: How did you end up at this party?
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  Speaker 2: Was it?
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Whose house was it at?
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  Speaker 3: My dad was Ardentary and his girlfriend Consula. They threw
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: a party from my little sister. It was her birthday,
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  Speaker 3: like literally like about your birthday, but we threw it
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: on Halloween. She was turning seeing. Somehow, some way it
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: ended up an adult party at nighttime. Every brought everybody
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: together like everything was cool, everything was cordial. You know,
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: everybody was having a good time. You know, there was
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: never no problems between the families, you know what I'm saying.
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: But some way, somehow, out of nowhere, at the end
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: of the party, as things were settling down, all the
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: altercation and stuff start happening.
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this started at a Halloween party in twenty ten.
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: So Octavius's dad, Arden, and Arden's girlfriend Kenzuela were hosting
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: a party at their house. They had about thirty to
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: forty family members there and as the party starts to
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: wind down, going to about midnight, a bit of a
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: conflict erupts and so no one really knows like why
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: the fight started. It's a verbal fight kind of. The
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: two sides of the family are arguing a bit. At
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: that point, Octavius and his dad and some others are
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: upstairs in their apartment and this is happening down in
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: the backyard behind the apartment. So Octavius's dad goes downstairs
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: the backyard. He confronts one of the men, Larry, who's
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: kind of causing some of the problems, and Larry shoots
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: a gun and he starts shooting towards Arden, so Arden
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: ducks down. There's guns firing, and then when the shooting stops,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: a man named Dennis Cole, who was Consuela's cousin, and
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: her other cousin, Cedric Johnson, are both shot and Dennis
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: been shot in the chest in the back, and the
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: police come and they say, you know who shot you
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: and he can't say at that time more than juvenile blackmail.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: And you know, there's quite a few people at the
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: party that match that description, but some of the other
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: individuals who had been at the party by the point
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: the police get there, they've already left. And so at
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: that point there's a lot of people out there just
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: yelling names and saying, you know, was it this person
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: was at that person? And so the police at some
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: point hear in the name Tate, and that's Octavius's nickname,
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: and so I think that sets them on the path
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: toward Octavius. The police they go upstairs and Octavius is
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: upstairs in the apartment. He's in the bedroom with a
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: bunch of the kids who are there, and they're like, hey,
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: this guy matches the description in the sense that he's
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: a seventeen year old black kid, and so they test
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: him for gunshot residue. It comes back negative. They look
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: for guns weapons on him, they find nothing. By this point,
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  Speaker 4: they've heard that the person actually did the shooting has
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: left the party. But even with all of that, they decide,
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: let's arrest him, and so they arrested Octavius and take
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: him to the police station.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: They didn't know that I was underage. They took me
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: straight to the adult jail. I know, I was scared shitless.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: They didn't even ask my age and none of that.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: They just straight took me to the big house until
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: they realized that when they read my social that I
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: was a juvenile. Then I had to sit there for
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: a little bit before they transferred me back to the
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: juvenile You know, they had you stripped down all this.
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  Speaker 3: I mean I felt violidd no lie, I never stood
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  Speaker 3: negad in front of a man before.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, you were still a child, just a junior
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: in high school, thrust into a very adult situation. And
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: despite the negative GSR test no weapons on you, hearing
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: that the shooter had already left the party, they just
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: went ahead and booked you anyway, And meanwhile, the victim,
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Dennis Cole, was at the hospital. He had stabilized by now,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: and he had seen his shooter.
• 8:00
  Speaker 4: Now, at the time Dennis Cole was shot, there's a
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: lot of problems that would lead to an unreliable identification. So,
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: first of all, there's a gun involved in this crime,
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: which we know can distract someone from really looking at
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  Speaker 4: the perpetrator. We also know it was dark, and perhaps
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: most significantly, Dennis Cole had a blood alcohol of point
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: two seven at the time that this occurred, and so
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: he's more than three times the legal limit. And that's
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: the circumstances that he's observing this crime in. So Dennis
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: Cole was shot in the chest, in the back. You know,
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: he survived. He was in the hospital for several months.
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: He was paralyzed, but he did survive. And so the
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: police get there. He gives this description again. This time
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: he adds a little bit more detail. So he says,
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  Speaker 4: you know, blackmail juvenile. It was one of Arden's sons,
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  Speaker 4: not the one with the hair. And so Arden had
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: several sons. Octavius has a few brothers, so a few
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: of them are at the party and Dennis's family says,
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: you know, if he says it's the one not with
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: the hair, well, then that's Ricky. That's not Octavius, that's Ricky.
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  Speaker 4: And by this point the police are starting to get
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: calls from people saying, Ricky Williams committed this crime. That's
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: Octavius's older brother. But they still move forward with putting
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: Octavius in a photo array and showing it to Dennis Cole.
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: The only person who is at the party who's in
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: this array is Octavius, and he's heard the name Tate
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: at some point in the background, so he identifies him
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: and selects him from the photo array.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Right, so they knew that the shooter was somebody at
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: the party. The victim had identified the shooter as quote,
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: one of Arden's sons, not the one with the hair
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: end quote. According to the victim's own family, what that
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: meant was that it was Octavius's older brother, Ricky, who
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: looks a lot like Octavius and who was also at
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: the party. If they had wanted to make a more
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: reasonable photo array, shouldn't they have included at least Ricky's photo,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: or perhaps pictures of other people who were at the party.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, nonetheless, the only person in this photo array
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: that was even at the party was Octavius. Now, the
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: image of Octavius's was the one that Dennis Cole had
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: gotten fixed in his mind as the shooter.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: At some point several months later, they'll give Dennis a
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: photo array that includes Ricky Williams, But at that point
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: he's already picked Octaves and committed to that identification. So
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: you know, he doesn't make the selection at that point either.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Well, many people think their minds operate more or less
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: like cameras. In fact, that's not even close to the truth.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And our minds played tricks on us in all kinds
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: of ways. But among other things, we will start to
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: tailor our memory to match influences that are shown to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: us or suggested to us. And so, you know, here's
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: a guy who's been through this horrific experience of being
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: shot twice and is now laying in this hospital bed
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: and his as you said, his blood alcohol level, I mean,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: he was really drunk. So that is the beginning of
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: his memory sort of fixing itself onto Now.
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: The police had this identification, and they're really not looking
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: at anything else at that point. They're really not considering
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: other leads. At trial, there's multiple people who testified that
• 11:12
  Speaker 4: Ricky was the person who was responsible for this shooting Octavius.
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: And Ricky's little sister, Jessica, was upstairs in the apartment.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: You know, here's like this fight going on in the backyard,
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: so she looks out to see what's going on and
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: she sees Ricky back there with a gun. There's another
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: young boy upstairs, Reginald Ward, he's fourteen years old. He's
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: actually the victim's cousin, and he looks out also and
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: here's the fight, and he sees Dennis Cole go up
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: to Ricky punch him in the face, and then Ricky
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: shoot him. So there are people who are on the
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: scene that night who know that Ricky Williams was responsible
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: for this. And what we learned looking at the trial
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: was that the police actually started to get messages and
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: voice mails saying, hey, Ricky Williams is the one who
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: committed this crime, and they don't go out and talk
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: to him, you know, they I think they said Doctavius's
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: family like, hey, let Ricky know, we want to talk
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: to him, but they didn't actually go find him or
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: bring him in or try to interrogate him or even
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: interview him. They just kind of collected that information but
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: still went forward investigating and prosecuting Octavius.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: How lazy can you be that you have multiple people
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: coming forward, tips coming in and they can't even be
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: bothered to go and speak to him. And at that
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: very moment they should have switched course. Octavius should have
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: been freed, Ricky should have been arrested, and we should
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: never be making this podcast right now. But that's, of
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: course not what happened. Octavius. You were charged with attempted
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: murder and several other related defenses. All of this must
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: have just I mean, how were you able to process
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: this as a seventeen year old kid. You're not even
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: a senior in high school yet you're just a child.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: I didn't process it until I was estually in prison.
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: I understand that being a jail is hard, but being
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: a jail innocent, though, and you know that you are,
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: is way harder, real hard.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: There's another sick aspect of this that I have to
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: focus on, which is the fact that Octavius was tried
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: as an adult because he turned eighteen before the trial began. Now,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: how does that make any freakingdifference. Right, he was seventeen
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: when it happened, So in theory they could this crime
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: could have happened when he was thirteen. They could have
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: held him five years until trial, and we've seen that
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: before too, but it's nuts. You can't both be a
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: child and an adult at the same time. But they
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: managed to try him as an adult anyway. Now, at trial,
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: the victim testified that you were the shooter, Octavius, but
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: multiple other witnesses testified under oath that you were upstairs
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: in the apartment when the fight and the shooting occurred,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and the shooting obviously was downstairs, and witnesses who watched
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the fight from the window in the apartment testified that
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Key shot the victim, not you.
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that it was him that shot anybody.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that. It was for sure hard to
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: process when when I realized that what people were saying
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: that who it was.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: So the trial lasted five days, and the jury had
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: a choice between the perspective of all these other witnesses
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: who were directly contradicting the victim himself, who had by
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: now convinced himself that you were the person that had
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: shot her, and off they went to deliberate.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I just sat there.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: And the reason that I was cool and I was
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: calm is because I had I knew that I had
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: to keep my composure no matter what the verdict was.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: But I was angry.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I'm just very good at keeping it to myself. I'm
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: very good at hotting it. But when they came up
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: with that verdict, though, I felt like my heart stopped
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: just the beat or two. But you know, I got
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: I got my air back. Never thought that I would
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: be the one to be incarcerated. As a fresh eighteen
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: in there, you know, had to take the scenery in
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: and had to get used to me being around a
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: lot of older people, a lot of killers, a lot
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: of rapists, and all this that I'm not used to,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: you know, So I had to adapt to my surroundings.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: And it was kind of hard, you know, because of
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: the unexpected fights and stuff like that. You know, you're
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: seeing movies and things like that, It's not how it
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: is in movies.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: You know, these really pop off lot nowhere.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: So from what I understand, not long after your trial concluded,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: your brother came forward and actually confessed to shooting mister Cale.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: I believe he.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Even made a written statement where he said and I quote.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Shortly after the party ended, an argument occurred outside the
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: apartment complex between my father, Ardent Terry, and Larry Johnson.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: They had a few words back and forth, but once
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the argument reached the back of the apartment, I was
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: right in front of the back door, and all of
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: a sudden, Larry Johnson started shooting towards me in my
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: father's direction, and shortly after, Dennis Cole ran at me
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: and punched me in the eye, and I pulled out
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: my gun and shot him out of fear for me
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and my family's lives because shots were being fired at us.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: First end quote. Wow, that's a pretty detailed confession. And
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: this all happened within a month or so of your trial,
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: while you were being processed into Toledo Correctional where you'd
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: spend a long stretch. So when you heard about this confession,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine, Like, what was your reaction.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Was I was, oh man, and I didn't know anything
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: about it. Oh man, I was.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: I was pissed, like I was really, I was really
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: fucking pissed, like parru because if the people would have
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: done what this were supposed to do then maybe not
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have made it all.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: It's a Toldo correctial decision. Oh yeah, I was.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: I was for sure deviast. That was because I was
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: angry as hell that all of this could have been avoided.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Did you have an attorney at that time, and if so,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: imagine you were on the phone with him or her
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: in seconds, going hey, get me out of here.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: This is right. I tried.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that in reply to my
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: messages or whatnot, but it took weeks for me to
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: get something back from them, you know, when they have
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: all of this in front of them.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like one of these situations where the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: doors should just swing open and you should come running
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: out into the sunshine. But of course that's not the
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: way it works. Joanna, how did you get involved? And
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: this must have blown your mind when you heard that
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: there was this detailed confession as well as all this
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: other evidence pointing to actual innocence.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: Octavius applied to our project, I think around twenty twelve,
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: and so we had a couple of students assigned to
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: it and they started looking into it, and you know
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: right away there's red flo for us. So the first
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: is that the only evidence that implicates him is this
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: eyewitness identification that has just plagued with problems. And then
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: there's no physical evidence, and we've got these witnesses at
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: trial who are saying Ricky Williams did the crime. So
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: we started investigating, and the focus of our investigation is
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: really to confirm some of the things that happened at trial,
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: to go out and talk to Reginald Ward and Chaffon
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: to English and Jessicatarian say, you know, is what you
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: testified to a trial true? And then we wanted to
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: consult with an eyewitness identification expert and make sure that
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: what we thought we were seeing about the identification that
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: we were correct, and that there were all these problems.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Right, These are all the issues that could have and
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: should have already been known at the time of trial.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: But then there's this confession from Ricky Williams.
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: We actually went and talked to Ricky. We sent out
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: an investigator before we had ever seen the affidavit that
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: he had already signed. And so our investigator goes to
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: talk to Ricky and Ricky immediately starts talking about that
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: night and says, hey, I committed this crime, and so
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: he signs an affidavit right there in front of our investigator,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: going through everything that happened that night, which matches up
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: exactly with what the witnesses said, which is that there
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: was this fight and Dennis Cole punched Ricky and Ricky
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: shot him. And so once we got that confession, yeah,
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: of course we thought we had it locked up. This
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: is as clear evidence as we could get that Octavius
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: has been telling us the truth this whole time. He
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: didn't commit this crime, and we thought that it was
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: clear he was innocent and that he should be released.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: But of course the wheels of justice turned quickly when
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: we're processing somebody into the system, but when we're trying
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: to right those wrongs, they turn at his nails pace.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And this is a dramatic example of it, because even
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: in a case like this, where it couldn't be more
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: obvious and had I'm going to say, if the police
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: had done there jobs in the first place, if they
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: had just gone and interviewed Ricky, they probably would have
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: seen a bruise if he was punched in the eye. Granted,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: they couldn't have gotten maybe the gunshot residue, because if
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: they couldn't have found him that night, it would have
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: been washed away. But this would have been a very
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: simple case to solve, had people been interested in really
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: solving it, as opposed to just putting a black body
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: behind bars. So it was submitted for review by the
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Conviction Integrity Unit of the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office, and they,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: as I understand it, conducted an extensive investigation.
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: So around the time that we had collected all of
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: the evidence in this case, Michael Mallley had come into office,
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: and part of his campaign had been to take this
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: conviction Teger unit and really put some resources behind it
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: and make it a legitimate unit. So that's why we
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: submitted Octavius's case. In our mind, it was like, this
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: is clear as day. Let's show them the evidence and
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: try to work together. And as you said, for two
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: two and a half years they investigated this case. They
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: talked all sorts of witnesses, they tested evidence, We let
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: them look at the defense files, they talked to Octavius,
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: and in fact, a prosecutor and I actually went out
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: and interviewed Ricky Williams together, and Ricky confessed on tape
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: to a prosecutor.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: And after wrapping up what they say we're several years
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: of investigative work on the story behind Octavius's conviction, the
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: CiU's internal Review Board cast a majority vote in favor
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: of what the criminal justice system calls and our audience
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: is very familiar with those words exoneration and actual innocence.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: The CiU's independent review panel concurred with it. Get this
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: a unanimous vote. They said that Octavius Williams was innocent
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: of this crime.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: There are two panels, one internal, one made of community members,
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: as you said, voted in favor of exoneration. And so
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: once we heard that news, were of course elated. We
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: think this is it. We think Octavius is coming home.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: He'll be exonerated. And then we learned that the elected prosecutor,
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Michael O'Malley, wouldn't agree to exoneration. So rather than letting
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: Octavius out and agreeing to move the court to dismiss
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: the charges, he agreed to let him out, but not
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: to clear the case. And so in Ohio that's called
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: judicial release. So in December of twenty nineteen, Octavis gets
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: to go home after serving about ten eleven years in prison.
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: But still has this attempted murder charge hanging over his head.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: It's nuts the fact that he went against the unanimous
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: recommendation of his own unit that he had so highly
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: touted during his campaign. I can't even begin to speculate
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: what his motives are. There's a quote where he said,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: what is justice in this case? I think, in this
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: particular case, we did the best we could. I think
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: we did what was right end quote. What in the
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: world is he talking about and what would he possibly
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: have been motivated by to still want to deny justice
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: and what is probably one of the easiest exoneration cases
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: he's ever going to see. Nonetheless, on December twenty nineteen, Octavius,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: you were free to go, but you weren't declared innocent.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: So this must have been as joyous as it must
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: have been to finally walk out into the free air.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Must have been bittersweet.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: No, yeah, it was for sure that it was to
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: know that I was at home.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: It was more sweet and bitter though, you know, because
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: I was actually outside of that place again, you know
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: what I'm saying. And then, as I said it realized
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: I still have the same thing hand on my head.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: So now that messages with my future job wise, can't
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: get a good job with the top one Feenidly, you
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: have to really put your neck out there.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I hope that it don't get cut off in order
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: for you to make his meat.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: The fact that they made you wear an ankle monitor
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: and I have a thirty day curfew and two years
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: on probation is really rubbing salt in the wound. And
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: I think it's insulting not just to you, but to
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: the public and to the members of the board who
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: you know, who carefully considered this case, to the people
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: who worked two and a half years to investigate this case.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's an insult to all of those people
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and to everyone who cares about justice that they would
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: double down, so to speak, on this wrongful conviction.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: And one other thing that's happened recently, this just occurred
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: in November of last year, is that all of the
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: community members of the Conviction Integrity Unit resigned. And they
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: resigned because for the past couple of years they hadn't
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: been given any cases, and because they had met with
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: the prosecutor and talked about what they wanted their role
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: to be, and they believed in the mission of the
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: conviction Jagor Unit and wanted to be able to use
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: that unit to achieve justice for people and didn't feel
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: that they were being given the opportunity to do that,
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: and so they resigned. And there's no longer any community
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: members of the unit at this point.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's a powerful statement.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: I can send you their resignation letter which has all
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: the reasons why they resigned.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone be on the lookout for that on our Instagram.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, how in the world could the community members
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: of the Cuyahoga County CiU not be given any cases
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: at all to review for years, just not even given
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: them at all to even review. From what we know
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: about that town, there should be somewhere between a steady
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: flow and an avalanche of cases because it's about as
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: corrupt as it gets. So we for a full exoneration
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: in Octavius's case, and maybe this episode will serve to
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: shine some light on the Cuyahoga CiU and the wishes
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of those community members. We'd hate to think that the
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: CiU over there is just a bunch of window dressing,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: something to be talked about around election time. Let's go
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: ahead and hold Michael Mallley accountable. And speaking of accountability,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing that the decision to leave this conviction hanging
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: over Octavius's head means that they never went after Ricky.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Is that accurate? That's right?
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: So Ricky has never been charged with this offense. He's
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: incarcerated for another offense, a shooting that occurred about a
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: year after the events that gave rise to this case.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: But this is a.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Person who's confessed over and over that he shot an
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: individual on October thirty first, twenty ten, and he's never
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: been charged with that crime.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: I can't even begin to imagine what the hell anybody's thinking.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, if they were prosecuting Ricky, they certainly would
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: use these confessions as proof to get their conviction. I mean,
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: it's the most compelling evidence that he committed this crime.
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: But when we're talking about using it to exonerate Octavius,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: it's not good enough.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Of course, it's an infamous double standard that we see
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: over and over again all through our criminal legal system.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: So where are we at in that fight? He's free,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that you guys are just going
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: to give up on his full exoneration.
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: After Octavius was released, we still went ahead and filed
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: emotion seeking a new trial, and the basis of that
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: was the fact that Ricky has confessed all these times
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: and the report of an eyewitness identification expert really talking
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: about the problems with Dennis Cole's identification. So we filed
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: that the beginning of twenty twenty. Then the pandemic hit,
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: so things really slowed down in the courts for quite
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: a long time, and eventually last May we had a
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: hearing on the motion, and so right now we're waiting
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: on a decision on that. It's been pending for about
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: seven months. But if that's granted, the impact of that
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: will be that Octavis's conviction will be vacated. And at
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: that point, if we do achieve that, we hope that
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: Michael Malley will dismiss the charges and that he'll be exonerated.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Well, let's hope that we don't see a judge willing
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: to ignore this clear case of innocence, as mister O'Malley
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: seemed so comfortable in doing before him. Now, in the meantime,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: with this conviction still hanging over your head, I know
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it's been tough looking for work. You don't have a
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: GoFundMe or anything like that. But I'm sure there are
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: members of our audience whould like to help in your
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: job search. I mean, I hope. So if there's somebody
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: in the area that's got something, what kind of work
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: are you looking for.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: I've been looking for demolition, I've been looking for factory jobs.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: You know. I just got my toe motor license, you know,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: so that's basically what I'm looking for.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: You still live in the Cleveland area, Yeah, all right,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: So construction and factory type work in the Cleveland area
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: will have ways that our audience can reach out to
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: you just by simply going to the link in our bio.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: So if you're somebody who's got an idea, don't stop
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: listening right now, put it on pause, and go write
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: to the link in the bio and reach out. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: also if anyone with a law degree or some clout
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: in the Cleveland area who wants to offer their help
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: and bringing about Octavius's full exoneration, please do reach out
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: as well. And with that we come to my favorite
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: part of the show.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: It's called closing arguments, and it works like this. I'm
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: going to turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Of course, kick back in my chair and close my
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: eyes and just listen to any other thoughts you want
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: to share with me and our amazing audience. Joanna, let's
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: start with you, and then of course we'll have Octavius
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: close out the show.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having us today and for sharing this story.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: I think Octavius's case is a really sad example of
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: how hard it can be for the wrongfully convicted to
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: obtain relief and to get justice. As we've talked about today,
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: his case is really straightforward. We know who did it,
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: We've got multiple confessions from Rick, we've got the conviction
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: Integrity Unit saying he should be exonerated, and still here
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: he sits with this hanging over his head. It's sad,
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: it's discouraging. It's the role of a prosecutor to seek justice,
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: not to maintain convictions, and that's not what happened here.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: But we're thankful for the opportunity to shine a light
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: on Octavius's case, and we're still fighting. We filed emotion
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: for new trial after he got out, and that's still pending.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: We're waiting for a decision on that, so that hopefully
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: in the coming months and years. Octavius can move forward
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: with his life and nothing will ever make him home,
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: nothing will ever give him those ten years back or
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: change what happened to him. But while he's home, he
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: hasn't gotten the true justice he deserves, and our hope
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: is that one day we can't accomplish.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That for him.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, man, how can you say that you will free
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: someone if you still have something hanging over someone's head?
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: How was that necessarily free? It's not free to meet
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: as slavery.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: You took me out of one hell hole to make
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: me feel that I'm free, but at the same time,
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: I'm not a lot.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Of it still hurts to this day.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: Sometimes I don't speak about it, you know what I'm saying,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: because I'm the type of person. You know, how a
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: man is to keep it to theirselves, to try to
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: deal with it theyself.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: That's just me.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Sometimes I have hard times. Sometimes I don't mental state wise.
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: You know, some people, I might look normal all this
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: other on the outside, but you know, it's a lot
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: going on in my mind because.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I can't get out of there.
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Each and everywhere I turn, I could hear and see
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: something that will remind me of it. The other day,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: I went to the mall with my girl and we
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: went there and I started getting anxious because it was
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of people in there, and my hands started sweating.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: I started.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that they still had that type of
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: effect on me. This was years later. It's not easy
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: for the ones that have been there in custrated for
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: a long time to just adapt to what's going on.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I'm still adapting. It's hard, I know that for sure.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: Sometimes you have your moments where you're you're happy, your
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: things feel easy and what not just at that, but
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of times it's just you don't know really
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: what's going on. You're just in the world, just the
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: piece on the chessboard, wait for your move.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is
• 32:50
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• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one