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The Ruby Ridge Standoff · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: should know the podcast the early nineties Black Helicopter Edition.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is Ruby Ridge, the incident, the standoff, the siege,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: what do you call this?
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: The beginning of the far right militia movement being born
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: in the United States? For sure? It was huge, huge. Yeah,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: it was a huge example of government overreach. It was
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: this researching this was really hard, man, This is a
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: hard one for me. It was just it's just such
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: an awful story all around. It's just terrible.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: So this is this occurred when I was I guess,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: like a third year in college or so, and.
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: That you know, I was.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I've talked on the show before about like us not
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: having TV or cable and stuff, and so I wasn't
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: as newsy then as I am now.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: But this was a big deal.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: And I remember this and then Waco literally right after happening,
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: which we should do a Waco episode at some point too.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunately we should.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I just remember at the time being like, wow, okay,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I don't think I really agree with these people that
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: are having this standoff, but at the same time it
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: looks from as an outsider, like the government is just
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: going in guns blazing and kind of murdering people.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: And it turns out both are kind of true for me.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. I mean, you don't have to sympathize
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: with the Weavers or any of their supporters to still
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: be like this is just messed up. Like, yeah, that's
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: what I was saying. The whole situation's messed up. I
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: don't agree with basically any of their views, but yeah,
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: it's just I say, we get into it, everybody to
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: make up their own minds, because it's definitely one of
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: those stories, you know.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so just in the broadest two sentence overview, Ruby
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Ridge was a standoff in the Ruby Ridge area of
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Idaho in.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: When did it finally go down? Ninety two? Yes, yeah,
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: That was many, many, many months long in the making,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: in which the US government had a stand off with
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: a family of children, a couple of adults, and the
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: rest were basically kids. Oh yeah, and it ended in
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: lost lives on both sides when there's absolutely no reason
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: why it should have. And this is that story of
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: the Weaver family.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you can start back at the very
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: beginning when the Weaver family itself began. Vicky who would
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: become Vicky Weaver. She was born Vicky Jordison and her
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: husband Randall Weaver, got married in nineteen seven. They lived
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: in Iowa, I think Cedar Falls right, Yeah, and she
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: was a secretary for Susan Roebuck. He had just been
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: discharged as a Green Beret honorably from the army and
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: had gotten a job working at the tractor factory for
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: John Deere. She can do a lot worse than that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: So they were like a very normal working class couple
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: just starting out in life.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was, like you said, nineteen seventy one.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: They had a daughter named Sarah in seventy six, and
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: then two more kids, a boy named Sammy and then
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a daughter named Rachel, all over the next six years.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: And those were you know, there was a kid that
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: would come later that we'll get to. But around the
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: latest seventies, kind of after the latest Arab Israeli conflict
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: came around, Vicky started basically kind of thought that was
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a sign of the end times, the biblical biblical end times.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: She kept having these recurring dreams of these omens about
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: a house on a hill where they could be safe
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and hide, and she thought the end times were coming.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And she started sharing this stuff with Randy.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and apparently it really jibed with him because he
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: got on board as well. I hadn't seen what exactly
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: was the impetus that triggered all that, so thanks for
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: clearing that up. But long story short, they ended up
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: becoming religious extremists together, and also like apocalyptic religious extremists,
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: not just garden variety religious extremists. Ye. Enough so that
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: they moved. And not only do they move, they gave
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: an interview to the local paper in Iowa saying that
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: they were moving and in fact, they wanted to go
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: find a place, build a place where they could have
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: a three hundred yard defensible kill zone. Yeah no, but
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I mean your local paper is probably like, this is hot,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: hot news.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, hot off the presses local couple moving
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: to up depensible shelter. Not here they moved in eighty three.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I saw fifteen acres. I saw twenty acres regardless, somewhere
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: in that neighborhood of land with a freshwater spring.
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: This time.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: They were in Idaho near Naples, in the Ruby Ridge area,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: and this area had become a just sort of a
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: place where if you didn't trust the government, if you
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: didn't like paying taxes, if you maybe were a member
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: of a Christian identity group or a white supremacist group,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: you may end up in this sort of rural era
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: area of Idaho.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: At the time, Yeah, for sure, this was like a
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: it's just I think it's still very much that way too. Actually,
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know what kicked it off, but I think
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: it started in the seventies in Earnest, so by the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: time they moved there, it was it was in full swing.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: That's just kind of where you went. And they actually
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: built their own home from what I saw, and pictures
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: of it are like, well, they did a really good job.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: It's like a two story, nice looking cabin. To build
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: a bunch of outbuildings. They basically built themselves a compound,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and they did it largely using scraps in plywood and
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. And they started living the survivalist life,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: like living off the land, planting vegetables. They homeschooled the kids,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: of course, and the way I didn't know that in
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: Idaho or in the US.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: In Idaho at the time, at least it was not
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: legal to homeschool. So not saying that that was part
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: of their illegalities, but I guess technically it was.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: But I think it does kind of like get a
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: point across. It's a little subtle, like they couldn't have
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: cared less if the state or the federal government told
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: them that they couldn't homeschool their kids. That would just
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: be one more reason that they hated the government. And
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: in fact, one of the big movements in this area
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: was essentially like local sovereignty, where the highest authority in
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: the entire country for a specific area was the local sheriff.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Anything beyond that was fraudulent, right, So, yeah, they wouldn't
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: have listened to the state government saying they couldn't homeschool
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: their kids at all.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure didn't have power, no technically no like
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: official running water. I think they were able to get
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: water to the house via that spring, but you know,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: they were living the rural lifestyle. They took in a
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: young teenage boy who had what sounds like a really
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: pretty awful home life. His name was Kevin Harris, and
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: he kind of came and went for a little while,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and then eventually basically was kind of adopted by the
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: family and he ended up staying there pretty much full
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: time at a certain point.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, so he wasn't like they didn't adopt him because
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: he was like, oh, I thought, I'm pretty sure it's
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: the end times too, right. He was just like a
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: kid that they helped out, which is pretty great. So
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: he was, you know, he would come and go. He
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: was just kind of living his life and he could
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: he just knew he had a place to stay in
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: a place where he could eat when things got bad
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: at home with the which I think says a lot about.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: Them, Yeah, for sure.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: And while they did kind of chum up to some
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: of the Aryan nation groups around there, they were never
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: like official members. They would go to a meeting sometimes.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: They were very much aligned with the Christian Identity movement,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: which is I mean, we can't get into the weeds
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: too much here, but one of the main tenants is
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: that Jews are literally the spawn of Satan, that Eve
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and the serpent bore you know, Jews as babies, and
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: that non white people are mud people from a different creation.
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: They are. I mean, how deep do you want to
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: go here.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Well, also that if you were of Celtic or Germanic
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Germanic descent, you're the chosen people. You're the You're the
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: people who everyone else needs to cater to basically, And
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: that also they're the lost tribe of Israel, which legitimizes
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: them all the way back to pre Christian days.
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: Right, Okay, that's deep enough.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So Randy Weaver came on the Federal alays radar
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: as far back as nineteen eighty five because the Secret
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Service showed up one time at the compound and said, Hey,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: what have your neighbors told us that you've been threatening
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: to shoot Ronald Reagan? And somebody tried that before, so
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: we take it pretty seriously. Are you going to shoot
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan? Yes? No, maybe?
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: Right? Which bubble did he fill out?
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: He said no. He adamantly said no. He said, this
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: neighbor that told you that is basically trying to pre
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: internet swap me because they want we have we're having
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: a property dispute and they're just trying to bring the
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: heat down on me. And I guess his explanation was persuasive,
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: because that's as far as it went. As far as
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I could tell.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's as far as it went. It could have
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: been a I mean, it could have been that innocent
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: because they you know, some of their neighbors they were
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: friendly with, some they didn't like very much. Some of
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: their neighbors. Can plane that kids were wearing Nazi armbands,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: that Randy had fired shots at the houses before it was.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You know, it's pretty rough and tumble out there. In
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, Randy ran for sheriff, Like you're saying,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: sort of the highest calling that you could have in
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: that crowd, and he was. It was basically a platform
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: of like, I'm anti government. In fact, I carry around
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: these get out of jail free cards and if you know,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: if you're not a non violent criminal, then you're going
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: to get a second chance with me, and I'm not
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna be a government sheriff basically, right.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: It's the posse comatadis movement, which is kind of basically
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: what I was talking about. That based on this Act
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: from eighteen seventy eight, federal troops have to stay out
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: of law enforcement. So yeah, those black helicopters and un
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: soldiers and all the stuff that everybody's worried about were
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: just totally illegal, and I guess by that token, the
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: FBI would be totally illegal, or the ATF for the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: DEA like there just isn't supposed to be such a
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: thing as federal law enforcement. That right, platform, he ran
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: under the party.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a pretty good break time, What
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, we'll take a little early Blake early
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: Blake took an early break.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: Blake set up like, Yes, I've been waiting for this
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: for sixteen years.
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: And we'll be back after this.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Earning stuff, Joshi.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: Stuff, you shut all right.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: So this is a time in the mid eighties, sort
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: of late eighties when militia groups were starting to sort
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: of be a thing, be in the news a little
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: bit more, and so of course the FBI is going
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: to start to begin undercover ops to infiltrate these groups.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: And see what the heck is going on.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: And that is exactly what happened at an Aryan Nation
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: meeting when Randy met an undercover agent. His name was
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Kenneth Fatally and he was going by the name Gus.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Gus Magisono's great undercover name.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, but not exactly Germanic or Celtic in origin.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: You know, he was worked for the US Bureau of
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Alcohol to back owned firearms the ATF and over the course,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: like this whole operation was years and years long, because
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: it took like three years for him to get a
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: few different meetings with Randy.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: In which which culminated and if you ask.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: The FBI Randy saying, Hey, I want to sell you
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: some illegal sought off shotguns. If you ask Randy, he'll
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: say no, Man, I was entrapped. I didn't want to
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: sell the guns. The guy asked to buy guns several
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: times with me saying no, I don't want to do that,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: until I eventually relented and sold him these firearms.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Right. So, however it happened the FEDS now had Randy
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Weaver in their grips. So they thought, this is a
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: very routine thing that federal law enforcement does and I
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: think local as well. Like they will bust you on
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: some charge. It's fairly small, still enough that you could
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: get prison time. They're going to take you away from
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: your family. It's gonna be bad news for you, but
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: they'll totally forget about the whole thing if you start
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: informing for them.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a small fish right.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Keep sure right, and then they use that fish's bait
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: to get bigger and bigger, bigger fish right. So he
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: was just going to have to do what he normally does.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: But every once in a while he'd meets secretly with
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: some ATF handler and tell them everything he knew and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: who was who and who was leading the stuff. And
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Randy Weaver thought about it and he said, you know what,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: you can go straight to hell. I'm not going to
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: be an informant, and you can press the charges if
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: you want to. The ATF did not like this at all.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: From what I saw. They essentially took that almost personally. Yeah,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: at the very least they came at him like they
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: took it personally.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Vicky was pretty upset as well. Apparently
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: she wrote a warning letter and this is in quotes
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: to Aryan Nations and all our brethren of the Anglo
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Saxon race. She filed an affidavit which you knew trouble
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: was coming. She filed an affidavit with a county clerk
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: saying we might have to defend ourselves from you know,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: with firearms, because the federal government is going to come
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: after us and we want to file this affidavit right now.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: That wouldn't even cross my mind. That's forward thinking, you know.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Sure, so that was actually very precient too, VICKI writing
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: that because they they would end up having to defend
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: themselves by attacks from the federal government. And that will
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: come a little bit later. First, in January of nineteen
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: ninety one, the ATF, I guess they didn't arrest him
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: on the spot when they came and said that, you know,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: they wanted him to be an informant. So a few
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: months later they decided to take Randy Weaver into custody.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: But to do that, remember he had a three hundred
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: yard kill zone. He had a cabin up on a mountain.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: You don't just walk up and tell somebody like that,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: come on, you're coming with us to jail. So they
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: actually the ATF posed as and by the way, ATF
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, another ostensibly
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: illegal agency. They posed this like their car had been
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: broken down, I guess on Ruby Creek Road, which is
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: the main road that led up to the cabin, and
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: they basically played on the Weaver's propensity to help strangers.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: I guess.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So they arrest him. He pleads not guilty.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: He's released on bond, a ten thousand dollars bond on
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: his own recognisance, which is a little surprising. Vicky, his wife,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: again writes a letter to the US Attorney for the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: State of Idaho that she addressed as the servant of
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: the Queen of Babylon and saying that we refused a
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: bow to your evil commandments, whether we live or whether
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: we die. So she, you know, she sent a clear
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: message that like, we're not fooling around here. And I
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: know we were on your radar, but you might as
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: well really put us on your radar because we're not
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: coming with you and you can't make us.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Or take us off your radar. Don't even mess with us,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, ideally, So Randy.
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Had a trial set. He remember he's been out, he's
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: out on bail, but he still has to go to
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: court to face these firearms charges. And again he sold
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: firearms to an undercover federal agents of it was a
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: federal law that he broke. So these are federal charges
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: and they can be pretty serious, but it was still, again,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: like you said, it was pretty small potatoes as far
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: as firearms charges go. We're just charges that you could
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: face in general at the time. Right, Ye's enough that
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: you know. They had a trial set for him, and
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: it was set for February nineteenth, nineteen ninety one, and
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: for some reason or another, it was moved by one
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: day to February twentieth, nineteen ninety one. Well, when the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: government does that or the court system does that, they
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: have to alert you. So they sent Randy a letter saying, hey,
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: we've moved your trial date to March twentieth, And of
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: course it wasn't March twentieth, it was February twentieth, And
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: there was essentially a typo that the author of the letter,
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: a probation officer, had written. And so, of course Randy
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Weaver didn't show up on February twentieth, and a bench
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: warrant was issued for his arrest for failure to appear.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so this has been sort of debated here and
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: there about the mistake and the error that he didn't
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: even have the right court date to begin with. But
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: all indications point to the idea that he was not
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: going to come anyway. So I'm not saying it like
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: didn't matter at all, But they said, hey, we're not coming.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I don't think he'd planned on coming even if he
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: had the right date. But the long and short of
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: it is he didn't go. And so they you know,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: they were really on their radar. Now they're like, we've
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: got a real situation here. And this is when this long,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: like really long surveillance program started in the summer of
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, when they kind of staked out around
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: the property and around the house with you know, binoculars
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: and things and surveillance cameras that they'd set up in
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the woods, and they were just tracking what this family
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: was doing. They had a couple of plans.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: To go in non violently.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: One of them was to cut the water supply I
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: guess from the spring to the house to flush them
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: out because at a certain point they weren't even like
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: leaving the house. You know, they were having food brought
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: in and stuff because they knew what was going on.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Another plan they had was they were believers in the
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: minstrual cycle meeting. You were unclean and filthy, So when
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: you had your minstrual cycle in that family, you had
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: to go stay in the birthing shed on the property,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: one of the outbuildings during the duration of your menstruation.
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: So they were like, all right, when Sarah, the oldest
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: teenager has her next mentro cycle, she's going to be
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: sent to the shed, and when the kids bringing food
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: and stuff out there will grab them and that they'll
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: immediately give up because we have the kids. But then
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: I guess someone said, well, wait a minute, that's kidnapping.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't do that.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: We don't have a warrant for any of the children,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: So that's we can't go with that plan.
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: So they went with the worst plan.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: They did go with the worst plan, but they it
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: was in very very It was a terrible plan in
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: really slow motion that played out over a really long time,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: throughout which so many people had so many chances to
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: be like, guys, wait a minute, what are we doing.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: This is like a fairly small federal firearms charge. The
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: guys sold two salt off shotguns and then didn't appear
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: in court, Like, we're spending millions of dollars on this,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: bringing huge resources to bear and it doesn't really make
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: sense until you find that the eight which was originally
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: the people with this case, they brought in the federal marshals.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: The marshals eventually brought in the FBI, and the ATF
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: told everybody else that number one, Randy Weaver was among
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: the biggest firearms suppliers in the United States.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, not true at all, with.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: No evidence whatsoever. The only thing that they had him
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: on record doing was selling two saud off shotguns. And
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: the other thing that they told the ATF told everybody
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: was that it was responsible for a string of bank
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: robberies in Montana. There's no evidence whatsoever that he ever
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: robbed a banker, had anything to do with these bank robberies.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: And yet those two pieces of information transformed this from
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: there's some weirdo family up in the mountains with guns
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: who and the dad has a couple of he sold
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: a couple of sawed off shotguns, and then come to
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: court to we need to literally bring the FBI, the
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Secret Service, the Marshals Service, everybody to camp out for
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: almost a year observing this house to figure out how
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: to get that guy out of there.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was an extreme reaction. I don't think there
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: are a lot of people that would disagree with that. No,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: so they're watching this house. The house, like we mentioned,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: is very depensable. This is the house on the hill
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: where they were to be safe from the dreams. When
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: they did go out, they would send usually they would
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: send the kids out ahead, supposedly with guns, to kind
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: of investigate and see what was going on. They had
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: neighbors recording license plates of people who came and went.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: They didn't The Weavers didn't have a telephone, but they
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: tapped phones at the general store. Helicopters were taking aerial photographs,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: they claim. The Feds claim that in March ninety two
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: they actually visited and said on the loud speaker and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: via some sort of phone call, that hey, you got
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: a surrender, although Randy would contend that no, until it
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: all went down, no one said anything to me about surrendering.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Big deal, because that's the first step in a situation
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: like that, is telling the person just go ahead and surrender,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: where we just want to take you to jail basically,
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: and that them not doing that is huge. That's a
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: big deal. Again, they were watching this place for basically
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: a year and had plenty of opportunity to do that.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Of somebody I did not see coming into the story
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: as Heraldo Rivera, and yet he has he was everywhere.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: He has a minor role in it in nineteen ninety two,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: he hired April of ninety two, he hired a helicopter
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: to fly over the cabin because by this time the
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: word was out that there was this family in Idaho
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: that was essentially in this long standoff with the Feds.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: And he said, or the helicopter pilot's sad or somebody
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: said that they shot at the helicopter when it flew
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: over their compound. But apparently that was untrue. And I
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: think even the surveillance team that was watching the place
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: at the time said, didn't shoot at the helicopter. But
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: you know her, although he's like, it's gonna be we
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: won't get any ratings if they don't shoot at the helicopter,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: so just say they shot at the helicopter.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So that was surprising. The most surprising thing to me
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: was an appearance by another human because somewhere in this
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: you know, stand off, while they were being surveilled. I
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: guess Vicky and Randy got a little randy and had
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: another baby. It's in my opinion, it wouldn't lead me
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to feel amorous and in the baby making way, but
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I guess things happened. They had a daughter in late
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, Elishaba or Elishaba, I'm not sure they
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: pronounced it.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: I'm going with Elisheba Elishiba. Okay. Right there in that
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: birthing shed is where they had Elisheba, and you know,
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: so that happened.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Just to know that there's a now a month's old
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: baby on the scene as well.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: For some reason, that just made me really uncomfortable the
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: way you put.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: That that happened.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that happened. I think let's go with Elishiba.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: I think you're right the first time. That makes way
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: more sense.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: No, I think that's what you said.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: No, I said Elishaba. Oh Elishaba, Oh, no, I said Elishiba.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's one of.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: Those Hey, how about this, we're both right.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is that was nineteen ninety one.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Just so yeah, late ninety one is when she's born.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: In the birthing shed on the property, right.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: That's right, or the you know minstrel shame shed.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, it depends on the situation, I would guess. Right,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: So everything is about to go down, chuck, and it's
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: going to go down really hard and really publicly, and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: the whole thing starts in earnest. The standoff that everybody
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: talks about when they mentioned Ruby Ridge is it started
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: on August twenty first, nineteen ninety two. It was a Friday,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: and that morning a few I think they were Federal
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: marshals right, showed up on the scene and they were
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: going to just do some more standard surveillance and some
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: stayed at an observation post and some others drove up
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: toward the road on the way to the cabin. They
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: showed up at like four thirty. This is not new
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: or weird or different, but I am four thirty am.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: You're right? Sorry, Yeah. A few hours later they were
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: getting closer and closer to the compound, and apparently they
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: attracted the attention of the dogs, the weavers dogs, and
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: the compound was in a state where if the dogs
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: are suddenly going nuts, you get your gun and go
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: see what the dogs are barking at. And that's exactly
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: what they did.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, you know, I know I mentioned that these
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: were kids, but I just want to drive home the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: point that you had Vicky and Randy, the parents that
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: were there. You had a ten year old girl, a
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: fourteen year old boy, a sixteen year old girl and
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the Kevin Harris kid that was living who was in
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: his mid twenties by now, and then this.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Ten month old baby.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: So teenagers and a baby, one guy in his twenties,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: and then the two parents, Sammy the teenage boy, Randy
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: is the dad, and then Kevin is the mid twenties
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: guy that was living with him. They go out with
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: their dog, Striker, a yellow lab, looking to see what's
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: going on. They come to a y fork in the road.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: As the story goes, Randy took it one way, Kevin
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: and Sammy and Striker went the other way.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: And this is where another.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Record of dispute comes in, because the US government says
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: they were fired upon when they announced their presence as
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: federal agents. What Kevin says is no, no, no, they
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: didn't announce their presence as federal agents at all. All
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: we saw was guys in Camo and they're like eyeballs
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: peering through the bushes and my dog barking, and one
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: of the guys shot it and killed it.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no dispute that the dog, Striker was shot
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: and killed. When it happened is a disputant who started
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: shooting first. So let's say According to Kevin's account, they
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: come up on these guys who didn't, like you said,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: did not identify themselves as federal agents. They're wearing camo,
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: they're holding guns, and they shoot the dog. Sammy the
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: teenage son says, you shot my dog, you son of
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: a bitch, and like lifts his gun and I guess
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: starts shooting. So a shootout ensues. Sammy's shot, he turns
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: to run. According to Kevin's account, he turns to run,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: is shot in the back and killed. Now, Kevin gets away,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Randy gets away, but a Deputy Marshal named Bill Deagan
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: is killed. Two So Striker the Dog, Deputy Marshall, Bill Degan,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: and Sammy the son, the teenage son are all dead
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: from this sudden surprise gun battle that took place outside
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: of the compound.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Kevin is the one to be clear who
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: shot and killed deputy the deputy Marshall.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's that's one hundred percent verified.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, because Randy was not a part of that shootout.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I got you, so, yeah, I know that he took
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: a different road, so he wasn't there when it happened.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I don't think so, I mean everything I saw was
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that the shootout was between the teenage boy and the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: twenty something year old and that you know, he shot
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Deputy Building in the chest and killed him.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Gotcha. So either way, there's a firefight going on, a
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: shootout going on, and Randy and Kevin retreat back to
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: the compound, but they leave Sammy's body there temporarily and
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: they're just completely fixated, according to Kevin, throughout that time
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: on retrieving his body. This is a pretty tight family.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: So you don't want to leave the dead body of
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: your fourteen year old son just laying in the road.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: You want to go get him. And this actually runs
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: a foul of what the marshals were saying. Two of them,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: They said that two of them were pinned down by
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: sniper fire for twelve hours, and Kevin and the rest
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: of the Weavers are like, that's not true at all.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: We were scared out of our mind and totally grieving
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: already from Sammy's death. We weren't spending twelve hours pinning
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: down the marshals with sniper fire.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they said.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: They claimed at least that the only gunfire that came
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: from them at that point was Randy firing his gun
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: into the air because he was so upset about losing
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: his teenage son. Right, all right, so now we're at Saturday,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: August twenty second, a hostage rescue team is dispatched by
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: the FBI, and this is when things get really hinky,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: because the rules of engagement in the United States in
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a situation like this are well known and generally ascribed
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to when things are on the up and up, which is,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: you do not engage unless you're under direct threat from
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: a violence or like somebody firing at you. Basically, they
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: amended this rules of engagement and it was approved by
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the Bureau's Assistant Director for Criminal Investigation Division, Larry Potts.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: That basically said, any armed adult man that you see
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: you can shoot and kill as long as you're not
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: endangering a child.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, unprovoked. Just see him walking through the compound, that
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: he's holding the gun at his side, you can kill him.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: That is, yeah, completely outside of the boundaries of the norm.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Like you were saying, yes, so that's a huge escalation, chuck, right, that,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, they were already, like like you said, overreacting.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: You could say, now this is I mean, this is
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: just out of control escalating, And of course when you
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: have something like that, and you have a bunch of
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: snipers and you have a bunch of law enforcement people
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: sticking out a compound, the chances of somebody being killed
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: just have increased dramatically. And that's actually what happens. I
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: say we take a break and we come back and
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: talk about a huge turning point in the standoff. How
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: about that, let's do it stuff from Joshimes, stuff you
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: sho so chuck. By this time, this is Saturday, August
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: twenty second, blood's been shed from the shootout, and now
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: the hostage rescue team and their snipers from the FBI
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: have the authority to shoot to kill, unprovoked the people
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: in the compound as long as it's an adult male
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: holding a gun. And there was a guy one of
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: those snipers, an FBI sniper named Len Horiucci. He was
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: about two hundred yards away from the compound and he'd
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: been briefed on this revised altered rules of engagement that
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: the FBI had authorized, and he saw Randy, Sarah, and
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Kevin all leaving the cabin the main building and they
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: started to make their way toward the berthing shed. They
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: later said that they were heading to the berthing shed
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to start preparing Sammy's body for burial. They'd retrieved it
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: by this time, and Horryucci, following these altered rules of engagement,
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: took a shot and he shot Kevin. No, he shot
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Randy in the arm. So of course, from that point
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: on they immediately scattered because all of a sudden, somebody's
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: shooting at them.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they are headed back to the cabin. They
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: get to the door. Vicky, the mom, is holding her
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: ten month old daughter in her arms and kind of
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: holding the door upen getting people in. And this is
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: when lan Horiuchi takes a second shot. He said he
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: was going for Harris, but it went squarely through the
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: head of VICKI threw her head and hitting Kevin then
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: in the chest, and she apparently was still holding her
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: in daughter when she hit the floor dead immediately.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was, like I said, an enormous turning point.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Now the son has just been killed by the FEDS.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Now the mom has just been killed by the FEDS.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: But at this time, the FBI doesn't realize that they've
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: killed her. I don't know if len Horiyucci like went
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: home and didn't tell anybody what had happened. I'm not sure.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you could shoot someone in the
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: head and not realize that you've done that. But apparently
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: it was not immediately understood by the FBI running this
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: negotiation that Vicky Weaver was dead. And also by this time,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: we should say there is a ton ton of cops.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: A lot of estimates put it in the hundreds. Yeah, federal, county, state,
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: local law enforcement all showing up to basically help out
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: or contain or do whatever. And one of the things
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: they did almost immediately was block the roads. And those
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: roadblocks became a site of protests for people who showed
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: up and were like, this is messed up, man, these
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: these this family needs to be let free.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: And these are you know, these are people from the
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Aryan Nation groups and some other militia groups that it's
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: basically they're saying, hey, this is going down exactly how
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: we say this kind of stuff goes down.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: So that that's going on. They've blocked off the roads.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: Like you said, Mom's dead body now is under the
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: kitchen table where it remains. Kevin is in pretty bad
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: shape because he was shot in the chest, so he's
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: in and out of consciousness. They're not quite sure you know,
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen to him at this point. And
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: we should also mention that lan Hori Yucci is a
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: sniper that also had a lot of controversial was also
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: controversial in the Waco siege, like very soon after this. Yeah,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: so this same guy was at both of these sieges
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: and both times was a part of a pretty controversial
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: shooting incident.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I okay, Well I didn't know that about Waco. I
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: had heard that he had not fired or shot at Waco,
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: but I guess that's not correct.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Well I didn't.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: I looked into it a little bit, but then I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: started going down the rabbit hole and thought we should
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: just cover Waco. But I think he was one of
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the guys that was charged with firing like the incendiary
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: rounds into the building. But I might be wrong in.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: That, but we'll save it for the Waco up.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's put it this way, like you can't
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: find anything about Lawn Horuci now, like, yeah, we know
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: he's still alive, but I'm sure he's not available for
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: you know, interviews, if you know what I mean.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, So, like I said, they the FEDS
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: apparently didn't know that Sammy was dead, and they also
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: didn't know that Vicky Weaver was dead. They started destroying
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: buildings around the cabin. So now they're closing in this perimeter.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: It's not just any longer like in this three hundred
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: yard Kills one. They're starting to move in and they're
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: destroying buildings as they go. And I guess when they
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: destroyed the birthing shed, they discovered Sammy's body and were like, oh,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: one of the family members is dead, and he happened
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: to be a teenager. Again, they still didn't know that
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Vicky was dead. And I guess because she had been
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: the ones writing the emphatic letters to the Servant of
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: the Queen of Babylon, et cetera, and filing the affidavits,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the hostage rescue team presumed that she was the one
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: who made the decisions in the family, so they continued
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: to address her even after she had been killed by
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the FBI sniper. And so they would speak directly to
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: missus Weaver through their loud speakers, and the family was
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: just the They didn't realize that the FBI didn't realize
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: that they had killed VICKI, so they thought that they
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: were just adding like horrible torment onto the injury of
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: losing their mom and wife.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, depending on who you too, there
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: are also people that say, no, they knew that she
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: was dead, and the things that they were saying were deliberate,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: trying to provoke them and cause further upset by you know,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: speaking to missus Weaver, who they knew well was dead.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: But again, it's just.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: It's one of those you know, you're never going to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: get the truth out of a matter like this because
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: there are two sides. But they're trying to lure them out, saying, hey,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: we had pancakes for breakfast. Once you bring the kids out,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I bet they'd love some pancakes. They send down a robot,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: a remote control robot with a telephone, so they could
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: you know, this is one of the hugest ways they
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: broke protocol is that in a situation like this, you've
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: got to be in contact and negotiate with someone in
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: a standoff, and they didn't do that until well into it,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: when they tried to get them a phone on this
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: remote countrol robot that had a gun mounted to the
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: front of it, which wasn't a good idea because of
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: course they saw that.
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: They're like, I'm not going near that thing.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Right, Why would you even do that to defend the robot?
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, doesn't make any sense.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: I tried to find out, but I couldn't find anything
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: that was rational, So I don't know.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: That's crazy. So that didn't happen. They weren't able to
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: establish contact aside from shouting at them through loudspeakers, right,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't a back and forth or anything like that,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: and the Weavers just dug in. They stayed in their
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: cabin for days. Remember the started on Friday, August twenty first.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: The following Friday, August twenty eighth, this thing was still
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: going on. Mom was still dead under the table, and
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: they agreed to speak with a guy named bo Gritz.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: He was also a Green Beret, a lieutenant colonel. So essentially,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: what's happening now is Colonel Troutman for Rambo is showing
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: up to tell the authorities that Randy Weaver will eat
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: stuff that will make a billy goat puke like it's
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: it's uncanny how closely this resembled that part of Rambo, right,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: and bo Gritz was able to get in and make
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: contact along with an ex cop from Phoenix named Jack mcclam.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Now both of them are We're huge, and I believe
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: still are in the conspiracy theorist circles that Randy Weaver
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: ran in. So it's not like they were just some
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: average people like they could. They could communicate with him
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: and talk his language, and he knew enough about them.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: I don't know if he knew them personally or not,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: but their reputation was enough that he let them come
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: inside to the to the cabin and talk.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: So they brought some food for the baby and milk
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: for the baby, which is great, and UH kind of
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: talked to uh talked Randy into ultimately coming out, but
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: initially just kind of got him in a better state
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: of mind.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: They are the ones when they came.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Back out that told the Feds, hey, Vicky's dead and
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: they're under the table. Randy's wounded. Kevin is wounded, like
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: big time wounded, and they were like, what that's news
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: to us. So on Sunday the thirtieth, Kevin finally surrendered.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Randy said it's okay, you need to go get medical help.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: He was helicoptered out to spoke Anne and I believe
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: he's in serious condition, but he recovered. And then they
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: also allowed Gritz and a friend named Jackie Brown, strangely
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: enough to take his wife's body away and the pets.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: They had a couple of pet parakeets that they took
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: away as well.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Right, so Kevin's out, it's now just Randy and his
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: three daughters, Sarah, Elisheba and Rachel. Yeah, and they were
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: alone in this cabin, still under siege. And so there
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: were a lot of supporters who are like, well, I mean,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: we know how this is gonna and Randy's going to
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: come out with guns blazing and take out as many
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: of these Feds as he can before he gets taken down,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: And very reasonably and wisely, Randy did not do that.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: He made sure that he and his three daughters were
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: able to come down safely. Ostensibly under the care of
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: an attorney named Jerry Spence. He represented the estate of
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: Karen Silkwood, who also deserves an episode two. But essentially
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: she was a whistleblower who was mysteriously who mysteriously died
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: in a mysterious car crash. So he was pretty famous
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: as far as defense attorneys, and he had said I'll
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: represent this guy, if he'll come out, I don't know
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: if he did. Did he.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: I don't know?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's presume that he did and didn't go
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: back on his word. But regardless, they some people think
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: that that public announcement by Jerry Spence may have had
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: at least some role in getting Randy Weaver to come
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: out peaceably.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he had to talk his daughters into it.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: You know, they were ready to go. They were both
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: brandishing guns. So he said, you know, fourteen year old
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Sarah put down your nine millimeter and ten year old
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Rachel put down that thirty eight.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: We're gonna get out of here alive. And they did that.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Randy and Kevin were ultimately charged with murder, conspiracy, assault,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: and the girls went to live with their in laws.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I believe Vicky's parents in Iowa.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Right, And so of course they're, like you said, they're charged.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: So their trial begins in April of nineteen ninety three.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: And I don't know if ironic is the term, but
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: the trial started just before Waco ended. And if you
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: don't know how Waco ended, and you can't wait till
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: our episode on Waco ended really badly. A lot of
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: women and children died. It was just a bad jam.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: So this is happening as this trial for the Ruby
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Ridge standoff is starting, and the whole thing lasted for months,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: I think finally on July ninth. Not only were there
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: months of testimony, the jury deliberated for twenty days. That
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: is a really long time to deliberate. And when they
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: came back, they acquitted Kevin Harris of all charges. And
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: you had said he definitely killed the deputy marshall, right,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: so he was acquitted of that and everything else. And
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Randy Weaver was acquitted on everything except for his failure
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: to appear in the original firearms case. That was it. Yeah,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: So clearly this Idaho jury was like, yes, the Feds
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: very much overstepped their bounds and overreacted, and this is
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: like so much so that like we don't think these
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: people should be should go to jail for anything they
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: did in response.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it was sort of the facts of
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the case too, Like everything I saw, it didn't seem
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: like it was just some uneven jury where they were
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: just sympathetic to the locals. Once the facts of the
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: case came out, it was pretty clear they changed rules
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: of engagement when they shouldn't have. They didn't follow protocol
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: setting up you know, communications, they and the guns blazing
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and just basically murdered people. They in ninety four of
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: the family filed wrongful death lawsuits against the FBI and
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: the US marshals. They settled it. The JOD settled these suits.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: They paid about a million bucks to each of the girls,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: one hundred grand to Weaver.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: Harris many years later, in.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Two thousand won another settlement for three hundred and eighty
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And Lan Horiyucci, the sniper who you know
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: where things really took a turn when he got involved.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: He it kind of went back and forth in different
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: appeals in different cases over the years of pursuing criminal
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: charges against him. So involuntary manslaughter was the initial charge.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: I think.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: They moved it to a federal district court who dismissed
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: it saying that he was acting in his official capacity,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: so you can't convict a guy for that. And there
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: were a bunch of appeals and ended up in him
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: escaping any justice by having the charges dropped.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: So the Justice Department had their own inquiry and they
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: found out that this whole thing was pretty much a
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: cluster from beginning to end. The Senate held hearings in
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five featuring Fred Thompton, who would go on
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: to play the DA in Law and Order for a
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: couple of seasons back when he was a Senator for Tennessee.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: And they also found that the whole thing was basically
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: a cluster from beginning to end. And one person who
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: did actually do time for this is actually an FBI agent.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: The guy who was one of the people running the
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: operation e Michael Cahoe. He was sentenced to eighteen months
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: in federal prison because he destroyed an after action report
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: about the operation. He said he was acting in what
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: he thought was the Bureau's best interests, in that he
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: didn't want the local Idaho prosecutor getting a hold of
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: the thing and using it. I would guess against Lawn Horiucci,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but he was the only person to
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: actually do time from this thing.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Randy just died a couple of years ago at
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: the age of seventy four. He kind of abandoned a
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: lot of the just sort of further out there religious
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: ideas that is was in his marriage, seemingly because of Vicky,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and he was still like a you know, sort of
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: cause to eleb in the anti government world. And Sarah,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: the oldest daughter, has it is very easy to find
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: interviews with her. She wrote a book at it about it,
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: called From Ruby Ridge to Freedom, and in that book
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: she forgave those federal agents.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I was reading an interview with her,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: and she's a big commentator on that part of America
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: and its response to the federal government and how each
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: one needs to kind of interact with another. She's very
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: peaceful now.
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: It seems like, yeah, seems like it.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: And like you said, Ruby Ridge was like a huge
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: impetus that was that gave like all of these far
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: right movements a shot in the arm. And this is
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. Within two years, all of that momentum
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: would just be completely scuttled when Timothy McVeigh came along
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: and said, Hey, I'm going to blow up a federal
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: building in Oklahoma City, kill one hundred and sixty eight people,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: including nineteen children in the daycare, and it's in retaliation
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: for Ruby Ridge and Waco. And it was so abhorrent
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: that all of those people who are like, yeah, Ruby
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Ridge were suddenly like WHOA. I don't want to have
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: anything to do with militias anymore because this is what
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: people do. I don't want to have anything to do
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: with it. It wasn't until the early two thousands that it
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: started to come back again, where it is slowly developed
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: over time until we are where we are now, where
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: they're essentially public public office holders in some cases.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a tough one.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: So maybe let's see Waco in one year and then
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: we can do the Oklahoma City bombing in two years.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Have you ever been to Oklahoma City in that site?
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: I have not.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: It's insane to stand there. It's just nuts. So yeah,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: we should do one on that too, for sure.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: But we got a space. He's out.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Oh I agree.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: You're saying every December like a Christmas episode.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: You go, good idea American tragedy by Boy episode and
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: then our holiday episode. Yeah okay, Well, Chuck apologized just
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: a second ago, so that means it's time for listener now.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a correction about Porcupines that I don't think
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: we got when that initially came out.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: But it must have been released as a Saturday.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Edition, right, you're sweet, Bippy, It was okay.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Hi, guys. My name is.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Geta Oh and I'm an undergraduate at UC Irvine setting Biology.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I want to write about a correction in your porcupines up.
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: Chuck was discussing the.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Fact of how New World and Old World porcupines evolve
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: independently of each other. The phrase for that would actually
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: be convergent evolution, not co evolution. Oh, I think I misspoke,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: and that actually we could probably clear that up in
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: our Peacocks episode coming up.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Oh good idea, Chuck.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Convergent evolution is what we need to remember. Co evolution
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: is a term where interactions between two species have a
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: reciprocal effect on each other's evolution, which is completely different.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Convergent evolution is when two separate population populations in distinct
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: geographic locations undergo similar phenotypic changes due.
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: To selective pressures.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: I want to finish by thanking you both for always
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: peeking my interest.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: It's peaking.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I Oh, you got me again.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: That really I thought you were just messing with me
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: a couple of months.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, And then later on it to only I
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: was like, I mispronounced peaking peaking, and Josh totally called
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: me on it, But I tricked him peaking my interest
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: in a variety of random topics I didn't I.
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: Needed until I did. Looking forward to learning more. And
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: that once again is from gta Oh.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks Gita gita O is oh. Their last name.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: It is ji dash Tao Oh. They put a handy
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: pronunciation next to it.
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: Well, thanks a lot, gta Oh. That was a great name,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: great email, and best of luck to you with your
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: biology degree. We need more biologists running around out there,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: so bless you for that. And if you want to
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: be blessed by Pope Josh or Pope Chuck, you can
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: send us an email as well. Send it off to
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartRadio.
• 50:42
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• 50:46
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