Latest / Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections / Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Neil Thubron and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker

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Networking Unleashed: An Interview with Neil Thubron and Michael A Forman, Professional Speaker · Networking Unleashed: Building Profitable Connections

0:16
Welcome to Networking Unleashed, Building Profitable
0:19
Connections. The show where conversations don't
0:23
just connect people, they create real business
0:25
results. I'm your host, Michael Foreman. Today,
0:29
we're bringing together four areas every professional
0:32
deals with every day. Networking, communication,
0:36
marketing, and sales. Most people treat these
0:40
as separate skills, but in reality, they all
0:44
come together in one place. the conversation.
0:47
My guest today understands how these pieces fit.
0:51
We're talking about what happens in those first
0:56
few minutes when you meet someone, how your message
1:00
is shaped before you ever speak, and why some
1:03
conversations naturally lead to opportunity while
1:07
others go nowhere. If you've ever had a great
1:10
interaction that didn't turn into anything, or
1:14
wondered how to guide the conversation towards
1:16
real results without sounding like you're selling,
1:20
this is for you. So let's get into it. I'd like
1:24
to welcome to the podcast today, Neil, Neil Thubron.
1:28
I am very interested in what you have to say,
1:33
because what you talk about is exactly what I
1:37
have been preaching for the last four years.
1:40
So, Neil, welcome to the podcast and just welcome.
1:45
No, thanks, Michael. Great to be here. And thanks
1:47
for everything you're doing and getting this
1:49
message out as well, because it's such an important
1:51
topic to cover. Because as you say, it's never
1:55
about selling. It's never about it's about how
1:58
you build that connection. It is. And why don't
2:02
you give us a little bit of a cliff note, so
2:04
to speak, of how you got where you are today.
2:08
So professionally, how I got where I am today,
2:11
I started working for a large IT corporate back
2:16
in the 80s and I was fixing golf ball typewriters.
2:19
That was my very first job. Very quickly moved
2:22
into sales because I realized I wasn't great
2:24
at fixing things. I was better at fixing people.
2:27
So I've been in sales pretty much all my career
2:30
since about 1991. in sales, in account management,
2:36
in running sales teams. And the last corporate
2:38
job I had was running a sales organization for
2:42
Europe for a large US IT company where I had
2:46
38 countries and 450 salespeople. And in the
2:51
last 11 years, I've been running my own business.
2:54
I've always done a lot of coaching and mentoring
2:56
with leaders and individuals, and as well as
3:00
keynote speaking based around. the extreme sports
3:04
activities that I do. And I have a sales training
3:07
business as well. That's kind of me in a nutshell
3:10
is I now work for myself. I do my own thing and
3:12
I help other people achieve what they want to
3:15
achieve. It sounds like you finally found what
3:19
you meant to do, right? So I think this is what
3:22
you meant to do. Okay, so let me start. Where
3:25
does networking and sales begin? Or are they
3:30
actually the same conversation done differently?
3:33
I don't believe that you can sell anything to
3:38
you can't sell something to someone who doesn't
3:41
want to buy it. So you've got the only way you
3:44
can be successful in selling or successful in
3:48
any way you want to build a relationship with
3:50
someone is by building that connection. And at
3:54
the end of the day, business is human to human.
3:57
whether it's selling, whether it's whether you're
3:59
trying to get a job, so you're selling yourself,
4:01
whether it's trying to influence people through
4:03
leadership. So the skills you need to be able
4:08
to build relationships in networking, so people
4:11
you might not have met before or people that
4:13
you might be meeting on a volume, exactly the
4:18
same human skills you need when you are selling.
4:21
So I think there is an intersection there between
4:23
networking skills and selling skills. What would
4:27
you say, let's say you go into a networking event,
4:32
and what's the first thing that you do? That's
4:36
a great question, actually, because there's so
4:38
many different types of networking events these
4:40
days, isn't there? There's physical ones, and
4:42
then there's online ones, and then there's...
4:44
No, that's what I'm talking about. It's a physical
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event. You walk through the doors, 300 people.
4:50
What do you do? So the first thing I typically
4:54
do is I stand and look and scan a room. And I'm
4:58
looking, because you've got all these senses,
5:01
so use all the senses. I'm listening, I'm getting
5:05
a feel for the room. I always feel when you come
5:08
to an event as well, you almost have to put on
5:12
that, it's not a costume, but a mindset of confidence.
5:17
There's a physiology that you have to make people
5:21
want to come and talk to you or to accept a conversation
5:24
when you go to them. So it's walking in with
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that air of confidence and looking around, not
5:30
positioning yourself in a corner somewhere, but
5:33
actually working out where do you want to go?
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Because it's easy to get trapped somewhere when
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you go to a networking event. So try and work
5:41
out where's a good place for me to be. so that
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I can engage in conversations, but also people
5:46
can see me and come to me. Okay, good. So I think
5:50
that's probably the first thing I do. Okay. Why
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do so many professionals struggle to turn good
5:57
conversations into real business opportunities?
6:03
Okay, yeah, I think that's a pretty straightforward
6:05
one, actually, Michael. I think if you want to
6:10
turn a conversation into a business opportunity,
6:14
it's got to be about the other person. You've
6:17
got to be curious in them. You've got to be interested
6:20
in what's important to them. You've got to be
6:22
asking open questions. If you start talking about
6:25
you, you've lost the conversation. It's got to
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all be about them and understanding them and
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their needs. And because you sell yourself, the
6:35
best salespeople only ever ask questions, but
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not in a robotic way. in a i'm curious about
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you i'm really interested in you and interest
6:46
doesn't isn't just the questions it's the eye
6:47
contact it's the physiology it's the matching
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and mirroring of the body positions as well so
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you can build that connection through the subtle
6:57
unconscious part of the mind as well as through
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the conscious mind which is the question no i
7:02
think that's the key is being curious and being
7:05
interested in the person you're talking to is
7:07
the way you can turn a conversation into a business
7:12
opportunity. They say that if you talk more than
7:15
30 % of the conversation, you lost, right? Because
7:20
that means that you have to listen, go to a ton
7:24
of networking events and everything else. And
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I use something called F -O -R -M, family, occupation,
7:32
recreation, and there's a certain message. And
7:36
what I do is I listen. I listen to the other
7:40
person, and I ask them about family, whether
7:43
they like to go boating, skiing, play baseball,
7:47
whatever the case may be, and have them talk
7:50
about themselves. Because you and I both know
7:53
people love to talk about themselves. And afterwards,
7:57
you direct them to what they do for a living.
8:00
And then at the end of the conversation, it's
8:03
not a conversation so far because you really
8:05
haven't talked, right? You say, you know something,
8:09
I like you. I like what you do for a living.
8:12
How can I make you more successful? How can I
8:16
be a good referral source for you? And if I did
8:19
my job correctly, they'll say, Michael, I don't
8:23
even know what the hell you do yet, and you're
8:24
trying to make me more successful. So that's
8:28
the arena you want to get yourself into. You
8:30
want to get to the person to talk about themselves,
8:32
and you're in. Yeah, I love the idea of the form.
8:36
I love that acronym. That makes lots of sense.
8:39
And I think the other thing to be to recognize
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is if you're at an event and someone else is
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at an event, there's a reason they're giving
8:48
up their time to be there. There's something
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they're hoping to get out of being at that event.
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And wouldn't it be useful to try and understand
8:56
why they're investing those valuable, precious
8:59
hours of their time? in being at the same event
9:03
as you're at. Absolutely. They'll walk away from
9:06
the conversation saying, that was a great conversation
9:09
and you really didn't talk at all. But they'll
9:12
remember it that way. What is the biggest communication
9:15
mistake people make in the first few minutes
9:19
of meeting someone new? I think we've just talked
9:23
about it. They talk too much. Yeah, absolutely.
9:27
That was the first thing that I figured out that
9:29
I was doing wrong. Because I walked in and I
9:31
started talking when I should have walked in
9:34
and started listening. So that was the first.
9:37
Yeah, yeah. How does marketing influence networking
9:41
before a conversation even begins? That's a good
9:46
question. I guess there's a number of things.
9:51
I guess when you're talking marketing, there's
9:52
marketing prior to a networking event, which
9:55
might be. The reason that everybody's in the
9:58
room is for a particular conversation around
10:01
a particular topic. But then there's brand marketing
10:04
and personal brand marketing. And this is something
10:08
I've done and I do reasonably regularly if I'm
10:10
going to networking. Find out who's going and
10:13
connect with them a long way in advance so that
10:16
there's a brand recognition and work at your
10:19
brand on the LinkedIn, on the Internet, whatever
10:23
it is you're using. So that's marketing you,
10:27
and that will influence the conversation at the
10:30
event, especially if you've got opinions about
10:33
topics that are relevant at the event. So you
10:35
might have written about topics. So I think that
10:37
helps. But then the actual framing of the event
10:40
itself, the marketing around that, I'm sure will
10:42
shape the conversation too. Absolutely. And if
10:47
you want to use LinkedIn as an example, I always
10:50
reach out to people and say, hey, you're going
10:52
to this expo or that expo? Say, yeah, sure. Yes,
10:55
I am. Great. I can't wait to meet you because
10:58
I want to go because of X, Y, Z. I'm going to
11:01
this. Oh, great. I can't wait to see you. And
11:04
I'll leave it at that. And then when I bump into
11:05
them, I'll not bump into them because I'll make
11:08
sure that I meet them. But I'll bump into them.
11:11
I'll say, hey, how you doing? I'm Michael. And
11:13
it's like we already know each other. Yeah. So
11:16
it works out. Perfect. Yeah, I love that. What
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makes someone instantly more memorable in a conversation
11:23
without trying to impress? So there's this kind
11:30
of unspoken thing called charisma, which is like
11:38
an air of confidence and sageness, being a sage.
11:44
And I think that... What makes someone memorable
11:48
is they may have said one sentence, but they
11:54
listened and that sentence made lots of sense
11:58
and was something that people will remember because
12:04
it really resonated. But charisma comes from
12:08
physiology. How you're using your body, how you're
12:11
using your eyes and your posture. The tone of
12:15
your voice and the pace of your voice. So one
12:19
of the things that people who've got a lot of
12:22
charisma do is they move through a room at their
12:25
pace. They don't rush. You never see someone
12:28
who's got charisma rushing. They have a certain,
12:31
yeah, a certain slow pace about them. That means
12:35
they're doing it in there. And I think that's
12:37
what makes people memorable is if they've got
12:39
that. i guess so that's one thing i'd say charisma
12:42
the other thing is wear something crazy as well
12:44
people wearing bow ties or a hawaiian shirt or
12:49
braces that's part of brand but it does make
12:52
you memorable absolutely it definitely does and
12:56
i i want to tell you that i've used that I can
13:00
have a few blazers that are just so out of control
13:03
that people always comment on it. And I say,
13:07
okay, that's good because they'll remember me.
13:09
But I want them to remember me over the clothing.
13:13
I don't want to say, oh, that's the guy with
13:15
the blazer. Oh, no, that's Michael with the blazer.
13:18
But that's where my confidence has to come in.
13:22
I have to weigh being confident and conceited.
13:26
So I have to make sure I'm more confident. And
13:29
I think there's a confidence in what you're saying
13:34
and that it carries weight. So that what you're
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saying has some weight behind it because it might
13:40
be because of experience. It might be because
13:43
of just you're well read and you understand the
13:47
topic and you're not just trying to say something
13:51
for the sake of saying it and looking like you've
13:54
got an opinion when actually you don't. You're
13:56
just saying it to try and make it look like you
13:58
have. Because usually if somebody asks you a
14:01
follow -up question to that and you don't know
14:04
what you're talking, it can be very embarrassing.
14:07
Exactly, yeah. Where do professionals unintentionally
14:12
lose trust when they shift from connection to
14:16
a business discussion? Yeah, it's basically when
14:21
they are trying to sell. They're going straight
14:26
from we're having a conversation. Oh, this is
14:29
what I do. And this is and this is the products
14:32
we sell or the features and benefits of the solution
14:35
or service. So they leap to a sell rather than
14:39
because there should be a nice dance where you're
14:42
asking questions, you're asking questions. Oh,
14:44
that's interesting. You know, I was working with
14:46
a client the other week. So you have a story.
14:49
But so I think it's leaping to selling. And talking
14:54
about them and their products and services too
14:57
quickly. That's where the connection gets broken.
14:59
Yeah, I always say stories sell. If you give
15:02
people facts and figures, they'll never remember
15:05
it. But a story will sell. But you can't get
15:09
to that story without a whole lot before it.
15:13
You can't just jump right into it. One of my
15:15
clients thought of that and they'll say, yeah,
15:17
okay, goodbye and move on to somebody else. So
15:20
you have to get there slowly. But if you get
15:22
there, then that'll work. 100%. How can someone
15:27
guide a conversation towards opportunity without
15:31
making it feel like a sales pitch? It comes back
15:35
to asking the right questions. And funny enough,
15:37
I teach this in my sales training, right? Because
15:39
you have to be... One of the things I find interesting,
15:42
I run an exercise in my sales training where
15:44
I get people to sell someone a pen, the classic
15:47
Wolf of Wall Street. But they can only sell with
15:50
questions. And they can only sell the pen they've
15:54
got in their hand. So it's no good asking questions
15:58
about an expensive Montblanc pen and how that
16:02
would be fantastic and what it would feel like
16:04
having this amazing pen in your hand if you've
16:07
got a plastic Bic biro. the asking questions
16:11
that guide someone towards so you've got to listen
16:19
to their pain and their needs or their opportunities
16:22
and then by asking questions what would happen
16:25
if so you're guiding someone towards a conversation
16:29
that might be linked to what you're trying to
16:32
what you could i'm not going to say sell how
16:35
what you've got could help them address that
16:37
pain or that opportunity You always want to,
16:40
you don't want to sell a product. You want to
16:43
sell what they're going to get from the product,
16:46
their feeling or the answer to their problem.
16:49
You never want to say, this is a pen and you
16:52
need it. You need to write contracts. You have
16:55
to say, I can help you write contracts. How?
16:58
With this pen. Something like that. Yes, very
17:01
much. What role does listening play in both networking
17:05
and closing business? I guess. So without listening.
17:13
Firstly, closing business is and I get asked
17:17
because I run a sales training business, I get
17:19
the phone call from the sales VP. So can you
17:21
help me close more business? And the answer is
17:24
actually, let's go right back to the beginning
17:27
of the conversation you had where you the questions
17:29
you were asking, how you're asking those questions,
17:32
the value you were uncovering. So I think. But
17:36
if you don't listen to the answers and you're
17:39
always thinking about the next question rather
17:42
than about the question that's relevant to what
17:44
you've just heard, you're never going to really
17:47
uncover what's important to that individual.
17:50
One of the things I've learned, so I trained
17:51
as a coach many years ago. I've done lots and
17:53
lots of different coaching courses over the years.
17:57
Coaches are trained to ask great questions and
18:00
then shut up and listen and not just listen to
18:03
the words, but listen to what's in between the
18:05
words. and what the person's telling you with
18:08
all the other signals other than just the words.
18:10
And I think that's a great skill for selling
18:12
as well, is because you can't hear what someone's
18:15
saying unless you're really focused on listening
18:18
to them. I've learned the same thing, but they
18:22
call it active listening. Yeah. And because if
18:26
you don't truly listen to them, that's why you're
18:28
listening to them and you pause afterwards. And
18:32
then you respond. And you're not thinking about
18:35
the next thing that you're going to say, but
18:38
you're thinking about how you're going to respond
18:40
to that person. And usually you're repeating
18:43
some of what they said and say, okay, if I understand
18:47
this correctly, X, Y, Z. And then you'll move
18:51
into active listening. That's so important. I
18:54
have it in every one of my presentations, what
18:56
they have to do. Yeah, absolutely. How can someone
19:01
stay top of mind after a conversation without
19:04
feeling repetitive or intrusive? Okay, so you
19:09
mean, so once you've left the networking event,
19:13
and you're keeping in touch with someone, okay.
19:16
So you go back and talk to them and not say the
19:18
same thing. Okay. Oh, so in the same event? Same
19:22
event. Okay. Yeah, that's a good question. I
19:27
guess it depends what you've learned in the first
19:30
part of the conversation. If you've learned something
19:32
about them, the form you talked about, the family
19:35
or the relationships. I guess depending on what
19:39
you've heard, then that will determine what question
19:43
you might go back with. And if you've been in
19:46
a conference and you've been listening to a speaker,
19:48
it might be when we heard that speaker, what
19:53
did you think about that given what you told
19:55
me? back at the last conversation you have so
19:58
if you can relate back to the last conversation
20:00
then a it shows you were listening and it shows
20:03
that it was relevant right absolutely and that's
20:07
so important because the other person will say
20:09
oh they were listening to me they actually answered
20:13
my question from way back when yes that's very
20:15
good advice okay so we're going to bring this
20:19
podcast full circle If a listener wants to improve
20:23
their ability to turn conversations into revenue
20:28
within the next 90 days, what's one habit they
20:33
should start immediately? So turn an opportunity
20:37
into... Turn conversations into revenue. So one
20:46
of the things I've learned over the years is
20:48
you build those connections. at events and actually
20:54
what you're doing is building relationships and
20:57
keeping that relationship going is one of the
21:05
most important skills I think I've learned once
21:08
so you're and the way you do that is by helping
21:12
them address whatever it is they're addressing
21:14
so you follow up basically so you make sure you're
21:17
following up so I guess the habit I would say
21:19
is Focus on how can I help as many people as
21:24
possible in the next 90 days? And you're probably
21:26
going to be successful turning a conversation
21:28
into closed business. Don't think about how much
21:33
can I sell? Think about how can I help or how
21:35
many people can I help? Or how can I enhance
21:39
this connection even more? One of the things
21:41
I love to do when I've met, even if it's the
21:44
first time I've met someone, is I've listened
21:46
to them and maybe I've got a business card or
21:48
I've got some, is... Send them something. Like
21:53
a book. After our conversation, I thought about
21:56
this book that I've read recently. And I just
21:59
thought you might find it useful. So that then
22:03
enhances the relationship. I had a client. He
22:09
wasn't a client yet. But I had several conversations
22:12
with him. And I knew he was from Kentucky. And
22:15
we got this whole conversation, everything. After
22:18
the conversation, I looked up and I said, Kentucky
22:21
bourbon. That is, you know, you have to drink
22:23
Kentucky bourbon if you're like over five years
22:26
old. You grew up with it. So what I did was I
22:30
packaged it rather well because you're not supposed
22:32
to send that through the mail. But I did. And
22:35
when he got it, he replied to me. He goes, oh,
22:39
my God, you were listening. You remembered that
22:43
how much I love Kentucky bourbon. And a month
22:46
and a half later, he became a client. But it
22:48
was all it's just you had to listen to what they
22:51
were saying in order to get the best. Yeah. Yeah.
22:55
And I love books, sending books through. They're
22:58
really easy to send through. But you can also
23:00
put a message that. This is why I think it's
23:02
relevant to you because of this conversation
23:04
we had. Absolutely. Absolutely. Neil, this was
23:08
great, I want to tell you, because I can probably
23:11
come up with another 10 questions and have another
23:13
podcast for two hours. So this was absolutely
23:16
great. But if somebody wanted to get hold of
23:19
you, either to hire you, consult with you, or
23:23
just say hello, how would they get hold of you?
23:26
Yeah, and thank you. I'm very active on LinkedIn.
23:30
So search for Neil Thubron on LinkedIn because
23:32
I'm the only one there. There aren't any other
23:34
Thubrons on LinkedIn. And neilthubron .com, you
23:38
can connect with me on there as well. So those
23:40
are the best ways of connecting with me. And
23:42
I'd love to have a conversation with anybody
23:45
who's found this interesting and useful. Outstanding.
23:49
Outstanding. This conversation is a reminder
23:51
that business doesn't happen in isolation. It
23:55
happens through communication. The way you connect,
23:58
listen, and express value determines whether
24:02
a conversation ends with nice to meet you or
24:05
leads to something more. Take one step this week
24:09
in your next conversation. Focus on understanding
24:12
the other person more clearly before explaining
24:16
what you do. That shift alone can change the
24:19
direction of the relationship. If you found value
24:23
in today's episode, make sure you like, follow,
24:25
and subscribe to Networking Unleashed, building
24:28
profitable connections so you keep getting the
24:31
best insights on networking and communication.
24:33
And share this episode with someone who wants
24:36
their conversations to lead to real opportunities.
24:40
If you'd help strengthening your communication
24:42
and turning connections into results, visit Foreman
24:46
to learn how I work with professionals, teams,
24:49
and organizations. So until next time, communicate
24:52
clearly, connect intentionally, and build conversations
24:56
that actually go somewhere. Neil, I want to thank
24:59
you again for coming on my podcast. Thank you.
25:01
It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Michael.
25:04
Hold on, folks. Don't go anywhere. Let's hear
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learn more, go to revvedupkids .org. Henry Kaplan,
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Century 21. When it comes to making the biggest
25:33
financial decision of your life, leave it in
25:36
the hands of a proven professional, Henry Kaplan.
25:39
Henry is a global real estate agent with Century
25:43
21, celebrating his 41st year in business. No
25:47
matter where you're moving, Henry has the right
25:50
connections for you. You can contact Henry at
25:53
561 -427 -4888. A huge thank you to our guests
26:00
for sharing such insights today. And of course,
26:03
a big shout out to you, our amazing listeners,
26:07
for tuning in and spending your time with us.
26:10
If you're interested in my digital courses, being
26:13
coached or having me come and talk to your company,
26:16
just go to Michael and fill out the request form.
26:20
Remember, networking isn't about being perfect.
26:23
It's about being present. So take what you've
26:26
learned today, get out there and make some meaningful
26:29
connections. If you've enjoyed this episode,
26:32
please don't forget to subscribe. Leave us a
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review and share it with someone who could use
26:38
a little networking inspiration. Let's keep the
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conversation going. You can find me on Apple,
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26:49
.com slash podcasts.