Latest / The Fourcast / Is Israel already enacting Trump’s Gaza plan? Israel's deputy FM

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Is Israel already enacting Trump’s Gaza plan? Israel's deputy FM · The Fourcast

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Hello and welcome to the Forecast.
0:01
I'm Krishna Gurimurthy. My guest today is the deputy
0:05
foreign minister of Israel, Sharon Haskell.
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Now, Sharon is from the New Hope Party, but she is part of the
0:11
coalition of Benjamin Netanyahu. And we're doing this interview
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as Israel is under intense criticism after the bodies of 15
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emergency workers have been discovered dead in southern
0:23
Gaza. Eighth of them are Red Crescent
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workers. There is one UN employee.
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And there's been criticism from the International Committee of
0:31
the Red Cross and other organisations.
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And this weekend, of course, the Prime Minister Netanyahu said
0:37
his intention was to implement the Trump plan.
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Sharon, let's begin with these bodies that have been found in
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southern Gaza. Should there be an investigation
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on why is Israel killing emergency workers?
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So this is absolutely incorrect. There has been no such case like
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that but. How do you know there?
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Has been mistakes, you know, the events with the Central World
1:06
kitchen, that's been a grave mistake.
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But the fact is, I don't know what case you're referring to,
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but every event that you get from Hamas, you don't take it
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with a grain of salt, you take it with a shovel of salt.
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Hamas has been spreading propaganda since day one.
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I'm not talking about Hamas. I'm, I'm, I'm talking about the
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Red Crescent a, a, a Research Center, OK, from London actually
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provide information and evidence how Hamas is inflating number,
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how they're actually reducing the age of some of the.
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You're not diffusing that 15 bodies have been found, have
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you? All the eight of them are Red
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Crescent, Red Crescent workers. Look, I think that if I haven't
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heard about this case, look, every case that actually
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happened, we investigate in depth, OK?
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If there's an investigation happening regarding a case, I
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would be very short and very I would be very cautious about
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making declarative and statements.
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As we've heard before, many of these revelations have been
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found not just as fake, but some as propaganda, Hamas propaganda
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and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
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Is condemning these killings and saying there are 8 Red Crescent
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workers who are dead. There is a total of 15 bodies
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that have been found and and you're not disputing the facts
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here, are you? Well, I'm actually disputing the
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sources of many allegations that that actually had come through
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the last year and a half and we know.
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Many cases about this case I'm not talking about.
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All the others and and I'm and I'm talking not just about this
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case, but in many other cases, the fact is that their sources
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of information was in fact Hamas.
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This is including, you know, the incidents in a hospital where
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they actually blamed Israel for it.
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And many broadcasts, including the BBC and many other reliable
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outlet actually reported reported falsely because that
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Hamas is spreading misinformation and propaganda.
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And when that be clear. Patient.
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Source of this is not. Hamas, the source of this?
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Is well, you want to tell me that the Red Cross is the one
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that actually went into the area and actually investigated?
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I can't do that because you don't let them put.
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In Well then, then you need to understand that almost all this
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information is coming from the same source, which is Hamas.
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And when Hamas is sending this information, you don't take it
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with a grain of salt, but do you?
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Take it with a. Shovel of salt.
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But do you not think that? I'm adding propaganda.
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This is part of their goal of war.
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So look, I would be very, very cautious in making grandiose
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statement like you did just now. No, I'm quoting.
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I'm quoting internationally respected organization.
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Investigated. By the ICRC and the UN ocher
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Humanitarian Affairs and I'm sure you department now,
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Jonathan Witcher. Very reliable sources like the
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BBC in the past hold on in regards to the hospital that it
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wasn't Israel that attacked but it was Hamas.
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That hold on, Jonathan Whittall, who was the head of OCHER in in
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Palestine, said seven days ago Civil Defence and PRSCS
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ambulances arrived at the scene of Israeli attacks.
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One by one. They were hit, they were struck.
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Their bodies were gathered and buried in a mass grave.
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So the first thing I would, I would ask you who actually
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investigated this event and I would tell you most likely it is
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Hamas because OSHA won't be on the ground investigating it.
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So when they get their information from Hamas, a death
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cold terrorist organization, as I said before, I won't take it
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just with a grain of salt. I would take it with a shovel of
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salt. I would wait until Israel
5:23
actually investigate to check what had actually happened
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because in most of these cases where it's pure Hamas
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propaganda, afterwards the funding are actually that some
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of them were committed by Hamas, some of them were committed by
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other terrorist organization. And so the, the fact that
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reliable, you know, you know, reputable journalist are very
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quick to judge and to propagate Hamas propaganda and to spread
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those lies Hamas lies over, you know, in international media
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outlet and in there's news agencies.
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That's very sad. That means that means that your
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work is not thorough. It's not going in depth in
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actually investigating what had actually happened there.
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The trouble is, the IDF has done this before.
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As you say, in the World Central Kitchen case, there have been
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lots of cases in which the IDF kills people who are clearly not
6:24
legitimate targets. And who is being held
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responsible for these? Who's being held accountable?
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Has there been? Has there been prosecution over
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any of these? Look, this is this is absolutely
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absurd and you're actually accusation are actually going
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hand in hand with Hamas propaganda.
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And I'll tell you what. It's just a fact, isn't it?
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The world? The world.
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Central Kitchen tragedy was a tragedy.
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It was investigated thoroughly. And you know what else?
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Australia. The Australian Foreign Minister
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has actually sent a military representative into Israel to
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investigate in depth that particular incident.
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OK, what did they discover and what was, did you read the
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report that they actually pulled out?
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They stated clearly not an Israeli investigation, but an
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independent Australian investigation, went in to the
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heart of the military to watch live footage and edited footage
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to actually make their conclusion.
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And their conclusion was very clear that that was a mistake.
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It was unintentionally. And we've actually investigated
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afterward, people were laid off and pushed out and we made
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procedure more accurate to make sure that those mistakes don't
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happen and. But they do happen because there
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are. Intentionally, Absolutely no.
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And if you have any kind of integrity as well, you will
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state that to your audience that Israel is never doing those
8:00
things intentionally. Well, we.
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Don't we don't know that that's the trouble.
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Oh. Yes, you know that.
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The fact is that you're not honest enough to say that to
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your audience. Where is your.
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Proof and then that it's not. Intentional.
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Well, obviously, even a report by an independent Australian
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military representative from the Australian government who came
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in and investigated. I'm talking about this case,
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Sharon. Very clearly.
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Well, I tell you this is not a single case.
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These are in all the cases. And if you can show me even one
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case where it was proven and that was intentionally.
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You can't. You can't because you don't
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allow investigators into all of these cases.
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To your audience, that's the problem.
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Well, will you allow independent investigators into this case
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here of 15 humanitarian workers, including eight Red Crescent
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workers, dead? Well, first of all, we are, we
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constantly are letting independent people coming and
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investigating that, including an.
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Australian. Investigation in the World
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Central Kitchen the first thing I will tell you this will be
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investigated by the Israeli, which.
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Is not independent or not impartial.
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But I can pretty clearly tell you that in many events like
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that, like in the past, usually turns out as pure Hamas
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propaganda. And I really hope you have the
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decency then, when that will be revealed, to actually apologize
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for it and tell the truth to your audience.
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As well, if there's an independence investigation,
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obviously we will report the results of it, but there isn't
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going to. Be well you apologize now about
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the what you what you stated about the world Central kitchen
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about that being intentionally. I haven't said that was
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intentionally intentional. I've said, I've said you've
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killed people several times and you've killed, you said 10s of
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thousands. Of 10s of thousands.
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And you should apologize, I said.
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Because there isn't. I said you, you kill people
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that. Actually showed that and prove.
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That the fact is that you do kill people and it remains to be
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seen whether it is done on the whole with intent.
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It remains to be seen in this case whether it was done with
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intent or not. And we'll we'll know if there is
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an independent investigation, but let's move.
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On there's been independent investigations throughout this
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entire year. There hasn't, but journalists
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like you that are actually recruited to a political agenda.
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You know what? I don't expect anything from
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you. I really hope you apologize and
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you have the integrity to actually tell your audience the
10:29
truth. And I'll tell you what, what
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else? Were there people killed?
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Yes. Is it a tragedy?
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Of course it is a tragedy. Did we choose it?
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No, we did. Israel did anything and
10:43
everything in its capability to try and avoid war because Israel
10:47
knows what the cost for it. But unfortunately, we are
10:50
fighting an enemy who's a death cult, who's been shielding
10:55
behind children, who has murdered, raped, beheaded and
11:00
burnt alive thousands of our. Let's move on to.
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The death call that we're actually that we're actually
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fighting against. What did they, what did you
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expect? That it's going to happen after
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the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust?
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Are we able to defend ourselves? Do you think we have the right
11:17
to defend our children against rape?
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Well, let's move. On to this question again of the
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resumption. Of the war alive, because this
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is a war about our capability of defending our communities and
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our children. Let's That's what's in the back.
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And the. Responsibility on those deaths
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relies on the hands of Hamas and Hamas only.
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Well, let's let's move on to the question of the resumption of.
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The fighting No. No, no, hold on, hold on.
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Hold on. Hold on, Sharon.
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Hold. On.
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Hold on. Hold on, hold on.
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We'll get to all of them. And we gave them hold on, we
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gave them an. Opportunity Sharon, Look, this
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has got to be an interview. It can't be a speech.
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So. So let me ask you some
11:57
questions. Let.
11:58
Me ask you some questions. Let let's come to the resumption
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of the war. War in Israel's breaking of the
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ceasefire. There are hostage families out
12:06
there protesting. There was one of the most famous
12:10
hostages on television last night saying this is wrong, that
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this is going to make the likelihood of more hostages
12:19
being killed increased. Why are they wrong?
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Well, first of all, you know, Israel is a democracy and
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there's freedom of speech and everyone are can, can, can say
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their viewpoint and their opinion.
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And that's the beauty about Israel.
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There's a free speech here and everyone is, can, can, can
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actually speak their minds. And we're very grateful for
12:43
that. The fact is that the return of
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the hostages, they came back because of two main reasons.
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One of them is the military pressure and the second one is
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the Trump pressure that they put on.
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Trump came with a full declaration saying you're either
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released the hostages, OK, or you know, hell will break loose.
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And for the first time, there was international pressure on
13:12
Hamas to actually advance with a ceasefire because the deal that
13:17
was signed, that was, you know, very similar to a deal that was
13:20
proposed by Russia, another proposal by Qatar and another
13:25
proposal by Egypt, which Israel said yes to all.
13:29
But the fact is that only through a military pressure and
13:33
international proper pressure on Hamas, that's what's brought it.
13:38
And. Yeah, but you've broken the
13:40
ceasefire now. And Yarden Bibas, whose family
13:43
were killed, says you're going to make the the deaths of more
13:46
hostages more likely by breaking the ceasefire and continuing to
13:49
fight. And he knows because.
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He's been there. His words were that Trump's need
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to put pressure to end the war right and that the hostages are
13:59
constantly under danger. And he thinks the return to war
14:02
is a disaster. They and you know what?
14:07
I wish Hamas was a reasonable party or entity that you can
14:13
reason with and continue with another ceasefire.
14:16
Yes. But you have broken.
14:17
The ceasefire when? No, no, the ceasefire.
14:22
The temporary ceasefire ended on the 1st of March.
14:26
It was only and and until the 18th of March after we ended the
14:32
the legal and the document that we've signed is that the
14:35
temporary ceasefire was until the 1st of March.
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And on the 1st of March, there was a proposal witkoff proposal
14:43
to extend the ceasefire which Hamas declined.
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We've waited for 18 days, almost 3 weeks, in the hope that Hamas
14:52
will reason and will actually continue in an extension of that
14:58
ceasefire, but they refused. Well, Hamas says it's now agreed
15:01
to a new ceasefire proposal, doesn't it?
15:04
Which involves. 5 hostages, which is less than the Witkoff
15:07
proposal, but it it does involve the release of more hostages.
15:10
Why is that not? Enough.
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Well, first of all, this is a new proposal that was put on on
15:15
the table and we've actually put a counter proposal.
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We want ten of our hostages back, Can't you?
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You, you, you get it. We want all of our family back
15:25
as quickly and as safely as possible.
15:27
Every single day they spend in those dungeons of torture with
15:32
those lunatic with that death coat, they are at risk of being
15:36
murdered. And so, yeah.
15:37
But the argument that the. Hostages are making as many as
15:40
many as quickly as. Possible, yeah.
15:43
But the the argument that Yard and Bibas and other hostage
15:45
families are making is that you are prolonging this.
15:48
There is an offer on the table to bring more hostages home in
15:51
return for a cease to a ceasefire extension and you are
15:55
rejecting that and currently bombing and telling people to
15:58
get out of. Russia.
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The fact is that if we would have rejected these things, we
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would said no to witkoff proposal we would have said no
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one won't send delegation. To the fact that there.
16:09
Are Israeli delegation who are constantly talking about it.
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Israel's accepted two different proposal by Witkoff.
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And when Hamas come with very extreme condition, we will put a
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counter proposition to make sure that more hostages are being
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released. I mean, this is just reasonable.
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We need to bring them back as quickly as possible.
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And you say it's reasonable, but the Prime Minister?
16:35
Has said hold on. No, hang on.
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We we've got to move on a little bit.
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I mean, the Prime Minister said over the weekend that the
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Israeli plan now is to implement the Donald Trump plan of
16:46
evacuating Gaza. Do you think that's reasonable?
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Look, that's not the plan. You can interpret it however you
16:55
see it. Well, the.
16:57
Prime Minister said it. The the fact is, and what the
17:00
Prime Minister actually said is that anyone who really wants to
17:05
immigrate out of Gaza, out of the hell that Hamas has created
17:10
there, OK, should have the opportunity to immigrate out.
17:15
And you know what? I wish that some in the
17:18
international community would have given refuge to women and
17:22
children in Gaza while the war against Hamas is actually
17:27
happening. The the Prime Minister said
17:28
they're going. Ahead with the Trump casualties.
17:31
Now the Trump plan is to evacuate Gaza and to not allow
17:34
them back and to redevelop it as the Gaza Riviera.
17:39
Do you? Do you see that as a reasonable
17:41
plan? But but you know you you're
17:44
making statements that are incorrect.
17:47
No, that is the Trump plan, and the Prime Minister said that
17:50
you're not hiding. It might be you.
17:52
Are now talking about the Trump plan.
17:55
You might be interpreted that way.
17:57
OK, but how did you interpret the Trump?
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Well, no, I don't interpret it. I I look on what the Prime
18:03
Minister said and he said first of all, voluntary immigration,
18:08
which means anyone that wants to immigrate out of Gaza should be
18:13
able to find refuge somewhere else.
18:15
This is a voluntary immigration. The second thing that Trump
18:20
actually said is actually temporary refuge while they
18:24
rebuild Gaza. OK.
18:26
And it's important to be very accurate with what President
18:29
Trump actually said, because when you're pushing your
18:32
narrative, it create a completely different well.
18:34
He was also asked can they go back and he said no.
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And and and no. He didn't.
18:41
He was specifically asked can they go back and he said no.
18:45
And well, when he was asked and what I heard from his
18:48
interviews, when he was asked whether they'll be able to come
18:52
back, he said after they actually rebuild Gaza, that's an
18:55
answer that I heard. When did Donald Trump say that
18:57
he didn't say that? He said that I think it was in
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January when he May or January or February when he made that
19:04
proposal. OK, I can send it to you if
19:07
you'd like to. I mean, Donald Trump is on the
19:09
record as having been asked, can they go back?
19:11
And he said, no, they can't because they'll be building new
19:13
communities somewhere else. It was.
19:16
It was then walked back by other officials who then suggested
19:19
maybe people would be able to go back.
19:20
But the president didn't say that himself.
19:23
Anyway, now that's interesting. It's interesting that you think
19:25
it's temporary. I don't know whether you
19:27
actually speak about the voluntary immigration where they
19:31
actually relocate them to where they actually voluntary want to
19:35
well. Let's just explore that.
19:37
Is from what I heard, his answer is that they will have a
19:40
temporary refuge while he rebuild Gaza.
19:43
Right. But the question is sort of what
19:45
kind of voluntary immigration is it when it's done under
19:48
bombardment? You know, the suspicion is that
19:51
what you are doing to the Palestinian people is making
19:54
their lives so untenable, destroying the whole place,
19:57
forcing them into a small part of Gaza, ordering them to
20:01
evacuate Rafa. That you know the choice is not
20:04
a real choice. You know the choice is either
20:06
stay and be bombed. Funny how how you how you
20:09
actually distort the the the actual fact as if it's actually
20:14
Israel's fault. The fact is that Hamas has
20:16
turned Gaza into hell. Hamas is the one has that has
20:20
stored all the resources throughout the years, billions
20:24
of dollars who were invested. In Gaza and.
20:27
All that hold on they. All that.
20:30
They all that to arm themselves and to build a city of tunnel
20:35
underneath Gaza. If they would invest that in the
20:38
economy, into education, into infrastructure, the first thing
20:42
Gaza would have looked different.
20:44
And the second thing is when Hamas launched the worst
20:48
massacre of Jews since the Holocaust on the 7th of October.
20:52
That was a full declaration of war.
20:55
That what what the Hamas expected to happen after they
21:00
kidnapped more than 250 people, including babies, out of their
21:05
beds. Can I bring you back to?
21:07
Question because all. Of this, all of this may be.
21:11
They declared war and when you. Let me let me bring you back to
21:15
the question. Come and cry over about it.
21:17
You cannot turn the fact and say it's Israel fault in turning
21:21
that into it. It actually Hamas
21:23
responsibility. I want to bring you back to the
21:25
question. Only on the hands of Hamas and
21:27
if you want to talk about. The responsibility.
21:30
Of why Gaza is a place like it is right now, this is Hamas.
21:35
And put the responsibility on the entity that actually needs
21:38
to be responsible for that. The second thing.
21:40
Is you just the question? God, citizens protesting against
21:44
Hamas in the last. Week.
21:46
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to come to that.
21:47
I'm going to come to. That.
21:49
Now don't worry, we're going to come.
21:50
To that protest against those murderers risking their lives
21:54
yeah and actually going out in the streets and the just hold on
21:57
a. 2nd just hold on a second so we can do one thing at a time.
22:00
The question is what does voluntary emigration mean?
22:03
If it is done under bombardment and when people have been
22:06
ordered to evacuate from large populated areas and are crammed
22:10
into one small part of Gaza, that's not a real choice is it?
22:15
Because the choice is is misery and possibly being bombed or
22:20
escaping for your life. That's that's not a real choice
22:23
around voluntary immigration, is it?
22:27
You know what? There's another option.
22:30
You should raise that to the interviews that you interview,
22:34
maybe from the Palestinian side. Why don't Hamas disarm itself
22:38
and actually return the hostages again?
22:40
You're not answering the question.
22:42
You're deflecting, the war will end and so.
22:44
Could you address the? Question.
22:46
Hold on, but I am addressing it. No, you're not.
22:49
And I addressed it. In the correct matter.
22:50
You're addressing it by raising another point.
22:52
Now the war can end tomorrow if they release the hostages, Can
22:57
it? Why don't we talk?
22:58
Are you saying the war would end tomorrow?
23:00
The war we didn't hold on to war.
23:03
OK, if Hamas released all the hostages, you're saying the war
23:08
would end? If Hamas disarm itself and
23:11
release all the hostages, the war is over.
23:14
No, because they would still be in place.
23:15
Not a single. And your your stated war aim is
23:18
to remove Hamas and to destroy them.
23:21
Are you saying you would drop that aim if they if they if they
23:24
let go of the hostages? Hold on.
23:27
If Hamas disarm itself and if Hamas release all the hostages,
23:31
the war will be over. The problem is that Hamas
23:34
refuses. So, so you're adding in, you're
23:37
adding in disarming themselves, but are you saying Hamas can
23:39
continue to be the civil administration do?
23:43
You think, do you think as a representative, as someone who
23:48
represent the Israeli people, I can allow a death call terrorist
23:54
organization that committed the worst crimes against humanity,
23:57
against my people, abducted more than 250 people and let them let
24:02
them return armed 200 meters from from our town so that they
24:08
can commit those crimes again? I'm scrutinizing your claim that
24:12
the war would end tomorrow. I'm pointing out that I'm I'm
24:15
scrutinizing your claim that the war would end tomorrow.
24:18
If they handed over the hostages, it's clear that it
24:20
wouldn't end because you also you also want them to hand over
24:24
their weapons. Are you saying if they handed
24:26
over their weapons but stayed in power as the civil
24:28
administration that would be fine with Israel?
24:32
No, exactly. So the war would not end would.
24:35
It there won't be a war, it means that we can start talking
24:39
about diplomatic solutions. You want the bombardments to
24:42
stop? The bombardments are what annoys
24:44
you? Yeah.
24:46
So there's two conditions to that.
24:47
Disarm and return our family members.
24:50
Would you? Would you stop the bombing?
24:51
And that would be behind. Us, if the hostages were handed
24:55
over, clearly not that that's the trouble with your position
24:58
that you say they can end the war tomorrow by handing over the
25:01
hostage. You want to tell me that the
25:03
problem with my position is that you know a monster death cult
25:10
can be 200 meters armed 200 meters from a kindergarten in my
25:17
community? No, no, I'm not.
25:18
I'm not. I'm not arguing one way or
25:20
another. That when they rent young girls
25:24
in Israel, I can allow them to return and actually try and do
25:28
that again, because they state that in any opportunity they
25:31
will try to do that over and over and over again.
25:35
So you tell me that you want my daughters to be at the risk
25:40
every. No, I'm I'm not telling you
25:42
anything like that. Rape.
25:44
I'm not telling you anything like that.
25:45
OK, What? What I'm pointing out is you.
25:47
Can have this ideal of keeping this terrorist organization in
25:50
Gaza you. What I'm pointing out, you let
25:53
your daughters reach 200. Meters from that health court.
25:56
I'm not saying any of that. I'm not saying any of that.
25:59
What I'm pointing out, you let hold on, you let your.
26:01
Daughters leave 200 meters from that death.
26:05
I'm not arguing you should. I'm not arguing that you should.
26:08
What I'm saying is it is not. What I'm saying is it is not
26:11
true to say that the war would end if they handed over the
26:14
hostages. This is a refrain that you keep
26:16
using, but it's clearly not true because what you want to do is
26:20
destroy Hamas. Now you may have good reasons
26:22
for that which the ones that you have expressed, but it is you
26:27
can't have it both. Ways are you hearing?
26:29
Do you hear what you're actually saying?
26:32
I mean, seriously, this is what I'm saying.
26:35
Is you? You keep claiming the war could
26:37
be over and it's not true because you've just explained
26:40
why it's not true because you would keep going until you had
26:43
destroyed Hamas or Hamas had left.
26:46
Look, I, I think you actually don't really get the reality of
26:51
what's happening in the Middle East.
26:53
Israel is fighting a death cult. This is jihadist.
26:57
This is a religious war. This is not a territorial war.
27:01
It is a religious war against a death cult and you want to tell
27:06
me that it is OK for my daughters to actually be
27:10
neighboring 200 meters from those monsters that have stated
27:16
that they will attempt every single day come back.
27:19
And rape, you keep saying. And burn them alive.
27:22
You keep constructing a fake argument that I'm making, and
27:25
I'm not. Our tough neighborhood, what you
27:27
saw in Syria with the Alawats just a few weeks ago, what you
27:33
saw in Gaza, this is the enemies and the monsters that Israel is
27:37
actually facing. And when I I'm not arguing and
27:40
when I. Say I want to disarm Hamas.
27:44
I don't know how you interpret it differently than I want peace
27:48
and good neighboring. That's the meaning of disarming
27:51
a terrorist organization that actually took all the resources
27:56
of the international community who were invested in Gaza and
27:59
committed them to war and destruction.
28:02
Let me just ask you a. Question ever in the future to
28:05
have peace and stability and good neighboring this terrorist
28:09
organization has to be eradicated.
28:12
They don't just. Sharon, let me just ask you the
28:14
question, which is, which is which comes back to this.
28:16
Point. But they don't care for the
28:18
Palestinian lives either. But the, the, the, the reason
28:22
this is important is because you are asking Hamas on the one
28:26
hand, to hand over the hostages without any conditions.
28:30
And then you're saying, but we will continue to destroy you.
28:33
Why would they give up their bargaining chips if you still
28:37
say you cannot stay in power, you must leave, you must give up
28:41
your weapons or we will kill you?
28:43
That that's the problem you're in right now, isn't it?
28:45
When it comes to these negotiations, Hamas is holding
28:48
on to its hostages as bargaining chips, and you are offering them
28:52
nothing. No reason to hand them over
28:55
because you're not offering them any kind of say in the future.
29:03
Look, Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist
29:07
organization. It's a death cult.
29:09
It didn't just destroy Israeli community, but it destroys
29:12
everyday Palestinian communities.
29:15
And when you're dealing and, and you know, maybe you have more
29:18
military experience, maybe you have more military strategy on
29:22
how to fight terrorist organizations and radicals,
29:26
maybe you should come and advise the Israeli military, you know?
29:29
I'm just asking you to address that point.
29:32
Why do you think Hamas will hand over the hostages?
29:35
I saw, I actually saw what? What is the result of those
29:40
monsters? I've seen it.
29:42
And I want to ask you about that, if we can get beyond this.
29:45
I, I, I, I want to tell you, I want to tell you this, OK, if
29:50
that doesn't happen, if I don't disarm Hamas, then maybe in a
29:55
year, 2 years, five years, 10 years, I'm not going to have 250
30:00
family members being held in those dungeons of torture.
30:03
I can have 500-800-1000. And this is something that my
30:08
people a problem that I don't want my daughters to actually
30:13
face in the future. And I don't think you get that.
30:17
I don't think you really understand what's the true
30:19
nature of those radicals, of those jihadists if you continue
30:23
to actually, you know, defend. Them.
30:25
No, I'm just. I'm not defending anyone,
30:27
Sharon. Don't put any words in my mouth.
30:29
I'm asking you. I'm asking you.
30:31
No, I'm. Not when you.
30:33
I'm not, and it's very, it's very important.
30:35
You accept that their propaganda.
30:37
No, I'm not propagating any propaganda.
30:39
I'm asking you questions and Sharon, and you can turn this
30:41
around into your talking points, but you've got to address my
30:44
questions, my question. Is.
30:46
No, you're not. No, you're not.
30:48
You're just attacking. You are just attacking.
30:51
No, you're just attacking. And that that, you know, we've
30:53
got to try and get beyond that. Because what I'm trying to ask
30:56
you is why you think Hamas will hand over the hostages if your
31:01
stated position is still that you want to destroy them.
31:05
Well, the fact is that if we put military pressure and
31:09
international pressure, that's pressure Hamas in handing out
31:13
our family members. That's the fact.
31:15
That's what work until now and nothing else, OK.
31:19
The fact is when we when we are reduced the the, the amount of
31:24
the maneuvering of our operations in Gaza and we went
31:29
into a quiet ceasefire, not a single Hamas official even went
31:35
around the negotiation table. They didn't want to hear about
31:38
it. It was only when we started
31:41
resuming military operation and only when the international
31:46
community, through Trump, actually put the right pressure
31:50
on Hamas, that's when they caved in and actually even started
31:53
sending the delegation to Doha to start these negotiation.
31:57
So from our experience, military experience, negotiating
32:01
experience, this is the only pressure that actually works on
32:06
Hamas and this is the only way to actually create a more stable
32:10
future for Israelis and for Palestinians.
32:13
What that future might be what, what is your personal position?
32:18
Because obviously you're not in the same party as Benjamin
32:21
Netanyahu. You don't necessarily think he
32:23
is the best person to be Prime Minister in in in an eventual
32:27
scenario. But what is your personal view
32:30
around the future of these Palestinian territories?
32:33
It is it is it the Trump plan? Is it a 2 state solution or is
32:38
it something else? I'll tell you what I think that
32:43
every plan that was tried until now has failed.
32:47
And the people who actually paid the worst price is the Israeli
32:50
people through the Oslo Accord, where, you know, the terrorist
32:56
attacks started to happen in Tel Aviv and Haifa, in Jerusalem, in
32:59
the heart of Israel, where they actually sent suicide bombers
33:04
into clubs and restaurants and bars.
33:07
And when we disengage from Gaza, we gave them a territory.
33:10
We gave them an autonomy. And a few days after, they've
33:15
elected a terrorist organization to rule them.
33:19
And since then, our communities were hit by missiles.
33:23
People were murdered. And it ended up with the worst
33:26
massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.
33:29
And. I think I, I think that, you
33:32
know, some of the solutions of Trump that are outside of the
33:38
box are actually very positive. I think that bringing new ideas
33:45
that can actually create stability and real coexistence
33:48
and bridges, that's something that we have to consider because
33:52
every solution that was suggestion until now, that was
33:57
pushed on Israel until now have completely failed and we are the
34:00
ones to pay the price. But what if they don't
34:02
voluntarily go? You know you're talking about
34:05
voluntary emigration. At the moment they're not
34:09
showing any sign of it. What if they don't?
34:11
Then then what? Well, first of all, I think it's
34:14
too early to tell. And the second thing is, I think
34:18
that, you know, after Trump's declaration and fought outside
34:22
of the box for the first time after a year and a half, finally
34:27
the Arab countries and the Arab leagues actually joined together
34:31
to start discussing what can happen the day after.
34:35
So that pressure that Trump's actually put with different
34:38
idea, I welcome it because it actually put the international
34:42
community, the Arab community in a point where it forced them to
34:47
start having a real discussion about the day after.
34:51
Well, that's really interesting. Up to Israel.
34:54
Because you're, you're not really taking the Trump plan on
34:56
face value then, are you? You're not really saying that is
34:59
the real plan. You're saying there's some other
35:01
future that will be discussed with Israel's neighbors, and the
35:05
question is what that other future might be?
35:08
I'll I'll tell you two things. The first one, I think it's too
35:12
early to say. And I think that every idea,
35:15
that every idea is welcome and we have to discuss it and we
35:19
have to look to the reality in its face and to discuss those
35:24
ideas straight. But but you know the voluntary
35:27
emanation is not a real. Idea Arab League do.
35:30
Do I think that the proposition that the Arab League brought is
35:34
the right proposition? No.
35:36
But at least we are starting a discussion and it's not going to
35:40
be just up to Israel, but this is going to be an international
35:44
discussion because it's not just our responsibility.
35:47
Let's talk about leadership in Israel then, because again, you,
35:50
you're ridden a different party. You're in the New Hope Party and
35:53
you wanted Gideon Tsar to be Prime Minister.
35:56
You currently have a Prime Minister and Benjamin Netanyahu,
35:59
who is wanted for war crimes, who is facing corruption charges
36:06
at home, who is facing protests. Do you think there is a future
36:13
without him in Israel in the in the foreseeable future?
36:17
Do you think he should be replaced by someone who can
36:20
bring the country together? I I don't think this is the
36:24
decision for the Israeli court and this is not the decision for
36:28
the international court. This is the, the sovereign
36:31
decision of the Israeli people. And Israel is a strong
36:34
democracy. It's a vibrant democracy.
36:37
Yes, there is their demonstrations, of course, good.
36:40
Is there freedom of speech? Good.
36:42
Do they criticize the government?
36:44
This is part of the process of what a democracy really should.
36:48
Should you still think Mr. Saul would be a better Prime
36:50
Minister? I think that it is up to the
36:54
Israeli people to make the decision who's going to lead
36:57
them and who's going to be their Prime Minister.
36:59
And more so, unfortunately, the ICC and the ICJ has turned into
37:05
a political tool in the hand of jihadists.
37:08
They are trying to tie Israel's hand in the attempt to defend
37:14
itself against the worst, one of the worst attacks against our.
37:18
Country. Or they're being used as a
37:23
political tool. That's.
37:26
Look, hang on, you said. The ICC and the ICJ are in the
37:28
hands of jihadists. Who are the jihadists?
37:30
I said they are being used as a political tool in their hands.
37:34
Yes, if I can tell. You who are the jihadists?
37:39
Hold on. If I can tell you, if I can tell
37:42
you before the trial at the ICJI look on the judges and I can
37:48
tell you every single judge what their verdict is going to be
37:52
before the trial was even open. It means it's political.
37:57
OK, it's not a bad justice, but it's a bad politics.
38:01
And if the head of the ICJ, after their verdict a couple of
38:06
months later, is being appointed as the Prime Minister of Lebanon
38:10
and his first statement is that Israel is an enemy state, I
38:15
don't think he's objective. I'm sorry.
38:17
So were they used as a political tool?
38:21
Yes, absolutely. Do the ICC being used as a
38:24
political tool? Unfortunately, yes.
38:26
And I have to say I'm very sad about it.
38:30
I'm really sad. These are meant to be institutes
38:32
to defend humanity and they are being used as political tools.
38:38
Do you still think Gideon Tsar would be a better Prime
38:40
Minister? Sorry.
38:42
Do you still think Gideon Tsar would be a better Prime
38:45
Minister? I think this is not a discussion
38:49
that we're having right now, and I think that when the elections
38:51
are and when the nominations to the prime ministership are, I
38:55
can answer you that as well. I think that right now, all of
38:59
our political effort here in Israel have to be addressed to
39:02
one thing and one thing only, and it is the survival of
39:07
Israel. On the 7th of October, Israel
39:09
was attacked in order to completely annihilate it and to
39:12
genocide all of my people. The worst crimes against
39:16
humanity were committed. We were attacked from 7
39:19
different fronts and so all of our efforts should be addressed
39:24
just for that, to defend our children and to defend our
39:28
community. Sharon Haskell, thank you very
39:31
much indeed. Thank you very much.
39:33
That's it for this edition of the Forecast.
39:35
Bye bye.