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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 41 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:06
Speaker 2: Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing, day forty one, the
0:11
Speaker 2: very latest in the search for Nancy Guthrie, an eighty
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Speaker 2: four year old beloved grandmother. Plus do we have a motive?
0:19
Speaker 2: If we have a motive, can we id the kidnapper?
0:23
Speaker 2: Straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, what
0:27
Speaker 2: about it, Dave Nancy.
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Speaker 3: We know that over the last couple of weeks there
0:32
Speaker 3: had been zero press conferences done by Sheriff Nanos, but
0:36
Speaker 3: he has talked to some media one on one, not
0:40
Speaker 3: really having to answer questions, just softball stuff for him
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Speaker 3: to share what he's thinking. And he actually, Sheriff Nanos
0:47
Speaker 3: actually came out with some stuff on the NBC Nightly
0:50
Speaker 3: News that was actually pretty scary, scary for the community,
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Speaker 3: scary for all of us who have been watching this
0:57
Speaker 3: story unfold. But here is Jeff Nano on NBC Nightly News.
1:02
Speaker 4: We believe we know why he did this, and we
1:05
Speaker 4: believe that it was targeted, but we can't. We're not
1:11
Speaker 4: one hundred percent sure of that, and so it'd be
1:13
Speaker 4: silly to tell people, yeah, don't worry about it, you're
1:17
Speaker 4: not as targeted. Don't think for a minute that because
1:20
Speaker 4: it happened to the Guthrie family, you're safe. No, keep
1:25
Speaker 4: your wits about you.
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Speaker 3: So Nanos is now saying we believe she was targeted,
1:31
Speaker 3: we know the motive. Nobody is safe, but that's it,
1:37
Speaker 3: not giving us any specifics. I guess the biggest problem
1:42
Speaker 3: we have with all of this is why is it that,
1:47
Speaker 3: after this long of a period of time, are we
1:49
Speaker 3: just now telling everybody you're not safe. We thought from
1:52
Speaker 3: the very beginning targeted going after Nancy Guthrie, the obvious
1:57
Speaker 3: connection to our daughter Savannah, being very high profile, with
2:01
Speaker 3: the Today Show being local in Tucson for a number
2:04
Speaker 3: of weeks prior to the kidnapping. I mean, there was
2:07
Speaker 3: a lot going on here that was all very very
2:10
Speaker 3: specific to Nancy Guthrie. Now, even though Sheriff Nanos is
2:16
Speaker 3: not telling us there's anything specific, but saying that others
2:22
Speaker 3: could be at risk.
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Speaker 5: That's a shocking beginning to the news.
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Speaker 3: One has to wonder if Nanos is using this as
2:29
Speaker 3: an opportunity to take some of the attention away from
2:32
Speaker 3: the resume and why he left El Paso back in
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Speaker 3: the day.
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Speaker 5: It's all I can think.
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Speaker 1: Of now too.
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Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons joining us Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security, leading
2:43
Speaker 2: a team of investigators around the world, including extractions from
2:48
Speaker 2: Mexico finding missing people former marine Iraqi war that.
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Speaker 6: Brian way In, I like to separate signal from noise,
3:00
Speaker 6: meaning you know, on radio traffic, you get good signal
3:04
Speaker 6: and then you get noise.
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Speaker 7: That clutters that message from coming in.
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Speaker 6: I have to interpret this as noise coming from Sheriff Nanos.
3:14
Speaker 6: He's made statements in the past that have gone hot
3:19
Speaker 6: across the presses, and then he's walked them back time
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Speaker 6: and again. This isn't yet another one. That's very confusing
3:28
Speaker 6: to say we have a motive. The public isn't safe
3:31
Speaker 6: yet Earlier he said this was targeted directly to Nancy.
3:35
Speaker 6: So if we take it at face value, this is
3:39
Speaker 6: very concerning, right, because it means that there's an individual
3:44
Speaker 6: or a group of individuals that are directly targeting wealthy,
3:49
Speaker 6: elderly citizens in the Greater Tucson area. I don't believe
3:54
Speaker 6: that that was Nanos's intention. My hope is that he
3:59
Speaker 6: misspoke and that this didn't come across correctly.
4:03
Speaker 7: But hey, there's no playbook.
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Speaker 6: For what Nanos has been saying here, it seems like
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Speaker 6: he's shooting from the hip in these press releases and
4:13
Speaker 6: in these media engagements and causing quite a bit of
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Speaker 6: confusion with the point right.
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Speaker 3: One of the things that we have been following all
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Speaker 3: along blood deposition on the front entryway and inside the house,
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Speaker 3: but the security of this site. From the very beginning,
4:30
Speaker 3: we know that when Nancy Guthrie's family shows up to
4:34
Speaker 3: check on her, they came going to assume they came
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Speaker 3: into the home. They didn't just stand outside in the
4:40
Speaker 3: driveway and say, oh, we don't see mom. So we
4:43
Speaker 3: know that they went into the house. We probably can
4:45
Speaker 3: assume a neighbor or two was there as well, you know,
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Speaker 3: as they were trying to figure out where she was.
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Speaker 5: But the scene was not secured.
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Speaker 3: After twenty four hours, we even know that a pizza
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Speaker 3: delivery guy showed up at the front door.
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Speaker 5: How corrupt is that DNA or.
5:00
Speaker 3: How usable will it be as this investigation before, because
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Speaker 3: Nanos is suggesting the case will be broken by DNA
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Speaker 3: chain of evidence on the DNA on the front porch.
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Speaker 5: What's going to happen with all of this?
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Speaker 7: You know, I have to if we take a step back.
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Speaker 6: You know, most crime scenes aren't secure for some period
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Speaker 6: of time after crimes committed, right until police arrive and
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Speaker 6: actually get a hold on that scene and put up
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Speaker 6: a perimeter to keep the public out. Now, in this case,
5:32
Speaker 6: you're spot on right. They had the scene, they released
5:36
Speaker 6: the scene, then you had days of nobody there, then
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Speaker 6: a security guard posted out front keeping the media away.
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Speaker 7: Then the law enforcement was back to the scene.
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Speaker 6: So again, what was collected on that initial shot by
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Speaker 6: p MA County we won't know right away. I believe
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Speaker 6: that they were able to present and collect probative DNA
6:03
Speaker 6: evidence at the scene in their.
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Speaker 7: First walkthrough, so.
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Speaker 6: I'm not so particularly worried about that evidence in light
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Speaker 6: of a potential prosecution. I think what's very concerning right
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Speaker 6: now is this new statement from Nanos.
6:23
Speaker 7: Really opens up.
6:26
Speaker 6: Are they aware of a motive, what direction is this
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Speaker 6: investigation going, and do they believe that the people in
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Speaker 6: Tucson are really in some sort of danger or was
6:35
Speaker 6: that again, like we said earlier, was that just an
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Speaker 6: off the cuff statement taking the wrong way?
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Speaker 3: If this was your investigation, you're in charge, and we're
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Speaker 3: at day forty plus, Now, what would you be doing today, Brian.
6:52
Speaker 6: Well, So to be clear, as a private investigator on
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Speaker 6: the private side, we're never in charge of an investigation
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Speaker 6: like this.
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Speaker 7: We would work.
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Speaker 6: The first thing that we would do is generate what
7:05
Speaker 6: we call memorandum of understanding with the Pema County Sheriff's
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Speaker 6: office to clearly.
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Speaker 7: Define the left and right lateral limits of what our
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Speaker 7: organization would do.
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Speaker 6: And one of the first things we'd do is bring
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Speaker 6: in advanced search and rescue assets as well as that
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Speaker 6: could include drones identifying areas for grid search. The second
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Speaker 6: thing would be identifying who we can and can't talk to,
7:36
Speaker 6: because as a private investigator we never want to step
7:40
Speaker 6: on the toes of law enforcement. So the first immediate
7:45
Speaker 6: step would be a briefing with Pma County to clearly
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Speaker 6: identify where they would or would not want us to go,
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Speaker 6: set up reporting parameters. Everything we do would be sent
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Speaker 6: effectively in a one way street of information to the
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Speaker 6: Sheriff's office, and then, as I said, search and rescue
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Speaker 6: advance search and rescue technologies would be brought in to
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Speaker 6: start aggressively grid searching that area.
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Speaker 2: Is Nancy Guthrie, a beloved mother and grandmother alive what
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Speaker 2: is she suffering right now? Is she hidden away in
8:26
Speaker 2: some basement being fed? What does she have her meds?
8:31
Speaker 2: Does she dream about her children and going back to
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Speaker 2: her home? Joining us now is a woman who knows
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Speaker 2: the ANSWER's firsthand to those type of questions. With us,
8:43
Speaker 2: Cheryl Hunter, Kidnapped survivor, an author of Use It Turn
8:49
Speaker 2: Setbacks into Success on Amazon, Use It Turn Setbacks into Success.
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Speaker 2: You can find her at Cherylhunter dot com Cheryl with
9:00
Speaker 2: a Sea, Cheryl, thank you for being with us tonight. Nancy.
9:04
Speaker 8: It's good to see you again.
9:06
Speaker 2: I can only imagine what Nancy Guthrie's ordeal has been
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Speaker 2: triggering in your mind.
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Speaker 8: It has been triggering a lot. One of the things
9:17
Speaker 8: that is most haunting is that there has been no
9:22
Speaker 8: proof of life. And I, like everyone now, am just
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Speaker 8: praying that she is safe, she is alive, and that
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Speaker 8: she will be returned.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl. For those not familiar with your ordeal, what happened?
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Speaker 8: I was a teenager traveling overseas with my best friend.
9:47
Speaker 8: I was approached by a man with a camera who said,
9:51
Speaker 8: are you a model? I can make you one? Just
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Speaker 8: come with me and my friend over there. And I
10:00
Speaker 8: I thought that's not a very prudent thing to do.
10:02
Speaker 8: But I wanted to live in a big city. I
10:07
Speaker 8: was from a very rural horse ranch in the mountains
10:10
Speaker 8: of Colorado, and I thought, ah, this could be my opportunity. Now,
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Speaker 8: obviously they were not photographers, they had nothing to do
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Speaker 8: with modeling. They were criminals. They held me captive, they
10:25
Speaker 8: abused me in every way, and they eventually let me go.
10:31
Speaker 8: And over the years, Nancy, I've speculated on why, and
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Speaker 8: the best I can come up with is that I
10:41
Speaker 8: humanized myself. Now, none of this happened consciously. I was
10:45
Speaker 8: a teenager at the time, and I started talking about
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Speaker 8: my little brother who was having problems in school and
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Speaker 8: he was being held back a year, and I said,
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Speaker 8: but he's very smart. He invents things. I think he
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Speaker 8: could really make something of his life. And I hope
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Speaker 8: he doesn't let this discourage him. And I would talk
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Speaker 8: about my grandmother trying to hold my hand in public,
11:09
Speaker 8: and I think what I did was I turned myself
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Speaker 8: out of being an object, which is how a criminal
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Speaker 8: relates to a kidnapping victim. You know, they're an object.
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Speaker 8: There are means to an end. They're a tool to
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Speaker 8: get what they want, And somehow, in this fit of
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Speaker 8: brilliance that I had and talking about my family, I
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Speaker 8: turned myself back into a human. I can only pray
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Speaker 8: that Nancy Guthrie, if she's alive and able to have
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Speaker 8: any interaction with them, is doing the same with us.
11:43
Speaker 2: A Cheryl Hunter, kidnapped, survivor and author of Use It
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Speaker 2: Turned Setbacks into success? Cheryl and the darkest moments of
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Speaker 2: your ordeal, the darkest moments? How did you keep going?
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Speaker 2: How did you survive?
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Speaker 8: I in the in the darkest moments, and by that
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Speaker 8: I mean these monsters were torturing me and cutting me,
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Speaker 8: and they were on top of me and assaulting me
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Speaker 8: in every way you could imagine. I now I know,
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Speaker 8: I dissociated. I craned my head as far as I could,
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Speaker 8: and on the wall in the room that they had me,
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Speaker 8: there was a little speck of light and I thought
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Speaker 8: that light must be coming from something outside, something which
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Speaker 8: is free. And I stared at it with all my mnd,
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Speaker 8: thinking if I stared hard enough, I could become this.
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Speaker 8: Now that wasn't something I planned out. I simply could
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Speaker 8: not look at them cutting me, torturing me, raping me.
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Speaker 8: I had to look away, and somehow that dancing spot
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Speaker 8: of light that stayed there all of the days that
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Speaker 8: I was held gave me a sense of freedom. I
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Speaker 8: couldn't I could just like this spark of light fly
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Speaker 8: away anytime I chose.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl, I have so many questions to ask you. But
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Speaker 2: that story that you just told about that dancing, glittering
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Speaker 2: spark of light on the wall getting you through the
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Speaker 2: worst moments of the worst moments of your life just
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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's very, very poignant. I think some
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Speaker 2: of what you're saying is you were acting out of instinct,
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Speaker 2: focusing away from what was happening to you on a
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Speaker 2: dancing speck of light, humanizing yourself to your abductors. But
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Speaker 2: you were held for a considerable period of time. Were
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Speaker 2: you fed, were you allowed to sleep?
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Speaker 8: What happened, well, I was not fed, and I passed out.
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Speaker 8: I don't know how else to characterize it. They gave
14:08
Speaker 8: me water. Originally they had drugged me. They asked me
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Speaker 8: if I wanted wine, and that was drugged. I passed
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Speaker 8: out And it was much later. I was in a
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Speaker 8: car and I woke up and saw that we were
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Speaker 8: going up a windy road and I realized this was
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Speaker 8: not good. My head was hanging out of the passenger
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Speaker 8: front passenger window with my tongue out, kind of like
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Speaker 8: a dog. And over the period of days, I got
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Speaker 8: water a couple of times, but that was it, and
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Speaker 8: I presume that's how they continued to drug me. But
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Speaker 8: I was just out of it entirely. I was laying
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Speaker 8: there at times in water and I I'm sure it
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Speaker 8: was my own urine, but they also tried to drown me. Yes,
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Speaker 8: it was instinct those things that I did, humanizing myself
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Speaker 8: and looking away and staring at the light. But I
15:10
Speaker 8: can't say that I thought to do those things. It
15:14
Speaker 8: was not conscious thought at all. It was just a reflexive,
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Speaker 8: instinctive response. I was too young. I had no experience
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Speaker 8: with anything horrific. It was, just as you'd said, an instinct.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl Hunter. When you have been hearing about Nancy Guthrie
15:35
Speaker 2: and what she's going through, what her family is going through,
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Speaker 2: how has that affected.
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Speaker 8: You, it's very hard to be with. I initially thought
15:49
Speaker 8: I must turn off the TV and stop watching this,
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Speaker 8: But the truth is that I'm very blessed. I not
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Speaker 8: only overcame the impact of the kidnapping in my life,
16:01
Speaker 8: but I went on to help thousands of other people
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Speaker 8: overcome the impact of the violent crime in their own
16:08
Speaker 8: lives that they had faced, and I thought it's my
16:12
Speaker 8: duty to pay attention because I do demonstrate that it's
16:18
Speaker 8: possible to go on after trauma. As I've followed Nancy
16:23
Speaker 8: Guthrie's case, one of the things that's become disturbingly sad
16:30
Speaker 8: is that I've read in many comments that people say,
16:33
Speaker 8: my son has been gone for seventeen years and I
16:36
Speaker 8: don't know where he went, or my father disappeared and
16:40
Speaker 8: no one can find him. I say that to say
16:43
Speaker 8: that there are many people suffering right now. And what's
16:48
Speaker 8: common in an occurrence like this, where we have experienced
16:54
Speaker 8: something that seems unfathomable and out of our control, is
16:59
Speaker 8: that we feel hopeless. And I've found over the years
17:05
Speaker 8: since my kidnapping that the antidote to hopelessness is action,
17:11
Speaker 8: is inspired action and helping another. So yes contribute in
17:17
Speaker 8: some way to different funds and causes that are supporting
17:24
Speaker 8: the family of Nancy Guthrie, or to the beautiful tributes
17:29
Speaker 8: that people are playing paying to her. But there's also
17:33
Speaker 8: those in our own communities who are suffering and hurting,
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Speaker 8: and whenever we feel hopeless, if we just remember that
17:40
Speaker 8: there's someone else who's hurting and feeling hopeless as well.
17:44
Speaker 8: And what we can control is contributing, being kind and
17:50
Speaker 8: finding a way to make those people's lives just a
17:54
Speaker 8: little bit brighter. And I want to demonstrate that and
18:00
Speaker 8: and my voice to this sad, sad state of affairs.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl Hunter, You survived. That gives people hope that Nancy
18:08
Speaker 2: Guthrie can't survive. Yes, I know she's elderly. Yes I
18:12
Speaker 2: know she has health problems, but she can survive. There
18:18
Speaker 2: is a hope, There is a glimmer of hope that
18:22
Speaker 2: she is yet alive and can't.
18:24
Speaker 1: Be brought home.
18:25
Speaker 2: You did it.
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Speaker 8: I pray that that's the case. And people say, well,
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Speaker 8: there's been no proof of life, as though that is definitive. Well,
18:37
Speaker 8: there's also been no proof of death. And I'm hanging
18:41
Speaker 8: my hat on that and my hopes on that that
18:44
Speaker 8: she is in fact alive. That, as crazy as it sounds,
18:49
Speaker 8: somehow she's watching all of these conversations about her, and
18:54
Speaker 8: she's allowing this massive outpouring of love and attention and
18:59
Speaker 8: affection and to fortify her. We are really each of
19:03
Speaker 8: us far more resilient than we could ever anticipate, and
19:09
Speaker 8: we all have proven it to ourselves in one way
19:12
Speaker 8: or another. We've all dealt with circumstances that we never
19:15
Speaker 8: would have chosen for ourselves. And I know that if
19:19
Speaker 8: Nancy is alive, that Nancy Guthrie can truly overcome, as
19:25
Speaker 8: can her family and her loved ones.
19:34
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
19:40
Speaker 2: In the mind of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper joining us now.
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Speaker 2: Special guest Robin Drake, behavioral expert and former FBI special Agent,
19:52
Speaker 2: chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, Repeat
19:58
Speaker 2: chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of
20:05
Speaker 2: Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction.
20:13
Speaker 2: Robin Drake, it's so great to have you joining us tonight.
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Speaker 2: First of all, based on the status of the investigation
20:20
Speaker 2: right now, what we know right now clearly no robbery,
20:25
Speaker 2: no burglary, not a random kidnapping. What could possibly be
20:32
Speaker 2: the motive of Robin.
20:33
Speaker 9: I'm going to remove the ransom notes from this one
20:35
Speaker 9: only because I think the ransom notes is a great
20:39
Speaker 9: attempt at spearfishing, because you know, typically when people are
20:42
Speaker 9: targeting someone to take advantage of them, manipulate them through
20:45
Speaker 9: really nasty, black hatted social engineering, they're taking known information
20:49
Speaker 9: knowledge in manipulating it for their own gain. Because if
20:54
Speaker 9: you're going to do a ransom and an abduction, this
20:57
Speaker 9: is exactly not the way to do it, and that's
21:00
Speaker 9: ever been done this way before, because the first thing
21:03
Speaker 9: you always have to do for a ransom is sign
21:05
Speaker 9: of life, proof of life not given. The other thing
21:08
Speaker 9: that they also do in ransoms is they communicate directly
21:11
Speaker 9: with the family because remember, you always.
21:12
Speaker 10: Got to look at coordinated with John.
21:15
Speaker 9: Roberts, the first FBI profile that says, you always have
21:17
Speaker 9: to look for intent, and if the intent is to
21:20
Speaker 9: get money, you have to make it easy to get
21:23
Speaker 9: the money. Whoever is doing these ransom notes through media,
21:26
Speaker 9: which is also never done, made it very, very difficult
21:29
Speaker 9: to get the money because they made it implausible with
21:31
Speaker 9: no sign of life, and so I kind of discounted
21:33
Speaker 9: that from the very beginning.
21:35
Speaker 2: I agree and disagree with what you just said. I
21:38
Speaker 2: think initially the motive was money, but many legal legals
21:46
Speaker 2: believe that everything went sideways and the original motive became
21:52
Speaker 2: impossible to achieve. But if it wasn't for ransom money,
22:00
Speaker 2: then what could it have been?
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Speaker 9: So now we've got to look at what's the motive
22:06
Speaker 9: slash intent. There's really kind of two schools of thought
22:10
Speaker 9: on this. So let's take, for argument's sake, that it
22:13
Speaker 9: was targeted, was targeted for Nancy or her establishment or
22:16
Speaker 9: something there. They wanted something inside that house. They either
22:19
Speaker 9: wanted an object or they wanted Nancy. Some theories out
22:23
Speaker 9: there are that it was targeted towards Nancy through some
22:26
Speaker 9: sort of retribution against either Nancy or Savannah herself, and
22:31
Speaker 9: that even if it was Nancy, that might be a
22:33
Speaker 9: secret that she held of someone that had it in
22:35
Speaker 9: for her.
22:37
Speaker 10: To me, that kind of falls apart a.
22:39
Speaker 11: Bit because there's always leakage of an individual that is
22:43
Speaker 11: targeting someone that has malicious intent, or there's some sort
22:46
Speaker 11: of stalking or there's some sort of note, there's something
22:49
Speaker 11: that says it was.
22:50
Speaker 10: For that intent.
22:51
Speaker 9: And if it was intent to take Nancy out of
22:54
Speaker 9: that house, because I looked up the research on this too,
22:57
Speaker 9: if it was a targeted abduction in retribution for Nancy,
23:00
Speaker 9: that the intent was to take her out of that
23:02
Speaker 9: house three to twelve minutes has had as long as
23:05
Speaker 9: those take on average. This was forty one minutes, and
23:08
Speaker 9: so something went different.
23:10
Speaker 2: Well, Robin Drake, you're a former FBI behavioral analyst, and
23:15
Speaker 2: I don't want to throw you in the same pot
23:16
Speaker 2: to stew with online conspiracy theorists. But you're stuatying that
23:24
Speaker 2: the maybe someone that had a quote relationship with Nancy Guthrie.
23:31
Speaker 2: Take a listen to this.
23:32
Speaker 12: My theory, my opinion is that Nancy was abducted by
23:37
Speaker 12: a boyfriend or a friend that is a boy, a
23:41
Speaker 12: man of her own, not an obsession with Savannah, not
23:46
Speaker 12: anything to do with anybody else but Nancy. I am
23:50
Speaker 12: not an intuitive, I'm not anything like that. I don't
23:53
Speaker 12: know anything other people don't know. I just want to
23:56
Speaker 12: speak into the universe that my theory is this is
23:59
Speaker 12: a about Nancy and her friend or a boyfriend, and
24:05
Speaker 12: maybe he hired somebody.
24:07
Speaker 2: Maybe that's from Abby and mom TikTok, Abby and mom
24:12
Speaker 2: on TikTok a boyfriend. Don't you think by now we
24:16
Speaker 2: would know if eighty four year old Nancy Guthrie had
24:21
Speaker 2: a boy toy. I think we would that, said Robin Drake,
24:26
Speaker 2: let's veer back out of the wheeze and into the
24:30
Speaker 2: middle of the road. Robin, you are unconvinced that the
24:35
Speaker 2: purpose someone that Missus Guthrie had with whom she had
24:38
Speaker 2: a relationship.
24:41
Speaker 9: Think about this if it was for retribution against Nancy
24:45
Speaker 9: in some way and she was hiding it, because that's
24:49
Speaker 9: one of theories is that she didn't share it with someone.
24:51
Speaker 9: What eighty four year old woman that's close to her family,
24:54
Speaker 9: that has church friends and all these things, isn't going
24:57
Speaker 9: to share with her relatives, friends in close associates. It's
25:00
Speaker 9: that someone has it in for her, or she got
25:02
Speaker 9: hate mail or something. So that's why that's kind of
25:05
Speaker 9: on the outskirts. But at the same time, more of
25:07
Speaker 9: my theory of that this was a home invasion for robbery,
25:11
Speaker 9: targeted for something inside that house that it took them
25:13
Speaker 9: forty one minutes to find is it's an outlier because
25:18
Speaker 9: of the type of targeting at eighty four years old.
25:20
Speaker 9: But the same time, though there's no data that supports
25:23
Speaker 9: the other one, and a little bit more on this
25:25
Speaker 9: one in my mind, but both sides are open. But again,
25:29
Speaker 9: targeted against Nancy for something in that house, whether her
25:33
Speaker 9: or an object or a thing of monetary value.
25:39
Speaker 2: Okay, Robin Drake, I hate to argue with an FBI
25:42
Speaker 2: behavioral analyst, but that sounds crazy to me. This top
25:46
Speaker 2: secret thing that they wanted out of our house? What
25:50
Speaker 2: the necklace Savannah gave her two Christmases ago? What? It
25:53
Speaker 2: just doesn't make any sense. She's not a special agent.
25:58
Speaker 2: What could possibly be in her home that would justify this.
26:02
Speaker 2: They could easily break in when she's not there. And
26:05
Speaker 2: even if they did or did not find the top
26:08
Speaker 2: secret object you're talking about, if it was for an object,
26:14
Speaker 2: why would they take an eighty four year old that
26:16
Speaker 2: can't walk past fifty yards along with them. That doesn't
26:21
Speaker 2: make any sense, none at all. Okay, let me go
26:27
Speaker 2: with another topic, the suspects behavior. What do you make
26:32
Speaker 2: of that, Robin Drike.
26:36
Speaker 9: Yeah, suspects behavior at the front door, and definitely someone
26:39
Speaker 9: that had some reps as a calm in doing a
26:42
Speaker 9: home invasion of some sort. They were very fluid with
26:45
Speaker 9: their actions and what they were doing. They're very comfortable
26:48
Speaker 9: with it. And so again this kind of supports my
26:51
Speaker 9: theory that someone that was on that front porch had.
26:55
Speaker 10: Some experience in home invasion.
26:57
Speaker 9: Before for whatever purpose that was for abduction or for
27:00
Speaker 9: getting something inside that house, and so they're comfortable doing it,
27:04
Speaker 9: but not as experienced obviously to deal with a ring
27:07
Speaker 9: camera or a nest camera because they were trying to
27:09
Speaker 9: cover it with a branch, which.
27:11
Speaker 10: Also kind of discounts.
27:12
Speaker 9: You know, one of the theories that someone has come
27:14
Speaker 9: out with recently that they maybe they use a Wi
27:16
Speaker 9: Fi jammer or something which also has a very limited
27:20
Speaker 9: distance that works on because if there were if they
27:22
Speaker 9: had a Wi Fi jammer on them, they wouldn't have
27:25
Speaker 9: tried to kind of cover up that nest camera. Also,
27:28
Speaker 9: one of the theories out there that people were flowing
27:30
Speaker 9: out was as a relative or someone close to the
27:32
Speaker 9: answer knew the property well. And my theory is is
27:35
Speaker 9: that it was someone maybe one degree of separation that
27:38
Speaker 9: knew of something in that house, knew of something to value,
27:41
Speaker 9: because there's a lot easier ways to get in that
27:44
Speaker 9: house than that front door which had a double gate
27:47
Speaker 9: on the front, the side door, the back door, around
27:49
Speaker 9: the pool.
27:49
Speaker 10: There's a lot of other.
27:50
Speaker 9: Ways to do this than actually going in that front
27:52
Speaker 9: door that was covered very well.
27:56
Speaker 2: Robin's Ree behavioral analysis expert and former FBI. What do
28:03
Speaker 2: you make of the porch guy the purpse behavior on
28:06
Speaker 2: the front porch and how that relates to an Internet
28:09
Speaker 2: outage in the neighborhood.
28:11
Speaker 9: Would he be able to tell that was still connected
28:13
Speaker 9: to Wi Fi or just connected to power, because if
28:15
Speaker 9: he's trying to take down the Wi Fi in the neighborhood,
28:19
Speaker 9: it's still Again, it's a hard thing to assess on
28:21
Speaker 9: the front step. And here's the other thing that I
28:24
Speaker 9: think it's important for people to also take in. You're
28:27
Speaker 9: looking at limited data from the neighbor who said they
28:31
Speaker 9: lost connectivity to their own ring camera that night at
28:35
Speaker 9: that time. Okay, have they looked at the pattern of behavior,
28:39
Speaker 9: how often that ring camera loses connectivity over the course
28:41
Speaker 9: of a day, a week, a month, to see if
28:43
Speaker 9: it actually fit a pattern or ivo was enigma or
28:46
Speaker 9: a blip. So data points are great if you're actually
28:50
Speaker 9: doing them and looking for an arc of behavior between
28:53
Speaker 9: technology as well as human behavior, because if it's a blip,
28:56
Speaker 9: then it's something to pay attention to. If it's just
28:58
Speaker 9: another data point that it's completely normal, it might not
29:01
Speaker 9: pan out.
29:04
Speaker 2: Robin Draike, I hear what you're saying right there, and
29:06
Speaker 2: while you were talking, I was reassessing what you said
29:10
Speaker 2: about the going into Nancy Guthrie's home as retribution against
29:15
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthery. I still think that's completely bogus. That's crap
29:18
Speaker 2: right there. Forget that, just mark that off my list
29:21
Speaker 2: of possibilities. But you did say going in for a
29:25
Speaker 2: specific item, and that they spent forty one minutes looking
29:28
Speaker 2: for the item, and I took it to mean some
29:31
Speaker 2: secret item nobody else knew about. But actually you might
29:35
Speaker 2: be right. What if a granny nanny told her son,
29:40
Speaker 2: the black sheep son, that Ms. Guthrie has jewelry hidden
29:46
Speaker 2: in a certain spot in her home or keeps, you know,
29:49
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars cash taped to the bottom of the bed.
29:52
Speaker 2: I don't know, something like that, an item of value
29:57
Speaker 2: in that home and it leaked to someone. I can
30:01
Speaker 2: go with you that far, Robin, that they went in
30:04
Speaker 2: for a specific item, but then taking Nancy Guthrie with them.
30:10
Speaker 2: They were in full disguise, So taking Nancy Guthrie with them,
30:17
Speaker 2: she can't walk over fifty yards, she has all sorts
30:20
Speaker 2: of health issues. They should just go in and get
30:23
Speaker 2: it and leave. With that scenario, that's where you lose me.
30:28
Speaker 2: Why would they take her with them if this were
30:32
Speaker 2: not a kidnapping, kidnapping for ransom and the whole retribution
30:37
Speaker 2: thing as a motive against her for what she screwed
30:42
Speaker 2: up the knitting circle. No, and retribution against Savannah Guthrie
30:48
Speaker 2: or her husband. This is pretty far fetched. I'm going
30:50
Speaker 2: to kidnap your mom because you said X during the
30:55
Speaker 2: Today Show or because your husband worked for fill in
30:59
Speaker 2: the blank, and then never take credit for it and
31:02
Speaker 2: explain why it's retribution. None of that makes any sense
31:05
Speaker 2: to me. It's very fantastical. But everything's on the table tonight.
31:18
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
31:24
Speaker 2: Tonight, a vandalized, correct wide open utility box is taking
31:30
Speaker 2: center stays straight out to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative.
31:33
Speaker 3: Reporter and Dave why because this utility box that shows
31:38
Speaker 3: really vandal It shows a lot of vandalism. But Nancy,
31:42
Speaker 3: this utility box right there, you got to realize this
31:45
Speaker 3: brings in phone fiber optic cable, which, by the way,
31:48
Speaker 3: that's how many of us use the Internet. This box
31:53
Speaker 3: is being tied to possibly an Internet outage that was
31:58
Speaker 3: happening in the neighborhood at the time we believe Nancy
32:01
Speaker 3: Guthrie was kidnapped. This utility box is just around the
32:06
Speaker 3: corner from her home, next to the neighbor that uh her.
32:10
Speaker 3: The neighbor's home that sees into Nancy Guthrie's backyard. Nancy,
32:15
Speaker 3: We've got a lot going on with this box and
32:18
Speaker 3: the possibility that internet connectivity was blacked out for a
32:23
Speaker 3: brief period of time the night Nancy Gudcree disciplined period.
32:28
Speaker 2: The video we're showing you right now is from our
32:30
Speaker 2: friends at WCNC. This utility box near Nancy Guthrie's home. Okay,
32:37
Speaker 2: straight out to our guests, an all star panel. James
32:42
Speaker 2: Bass joining us. James is a digital forensic analyst, expert
32:46
Speaker 2: witness with Evident Solutions, Inc. There in Tucson. James Bass,
32:52
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. What do you make
32:54
Speaker 2: of it? Let's tell you a look at this video again.
32:57
Speaker 2: A utility box pride and vandalized at the time Nancy
33:03
Speaker 2: Guthrie goes missing. What would this have to do with
33:07
Speaker 2: the blackout experience by we know two neighbors of Nancy Guthries.
33:12
Speaker 2: By the way, this video from our friends at wc NC.
33:15
Speaker 13: What about it James, Well, not exactly sure that these
33:19
Speaker 13: two could be connected. Looking at the utility box the
33:22
Speaker 13: way it's set up, in the wires that are in it,
33:24
Speaker 13: they appear that they are likely just your regular telephone bars,
33:28
Speaker 13: your telephone infrastructure that would not affect your WiFi. I
33:36
Speaker 13: would assume this is now.
33:38
Speaker 2: I want to see the utility box, James. Granted I'm
33:43
Speaker 2: just a trial lawyer. You're the digital expert. How can
33:47
Speaker 2: you look at this tangle of wires and tell me, oh,
33:52
Speaker 2: it's nothing but phone wires? And then to me, I
33:56
Speaker 2: don't understand how you know that by looking at that
34:00
Speaker 2: that it's just phone wires. I mean, doesn't a lot
34:04
Speaker 2: of fiber optics include phone, your cable, your Wi Fi connection.
34:10
Speaker 2: And again thanks to w C and C for this,
34:12
Speaker 2: But what do you mean they're just phone wires? I
34:15
Speaker 2: didn't think there even were just phone wires anymore.
34:20
Speaker 13: Well, the wires are still there, and the infrastructure still there.
34:23
Speaker 13: It still supports a lot of what we do today.
34:26
Speaker 13: Your fiber optic is just one five is a fiber
34:31
Speaker 13: optic cable. Your phones would have three or four pairs
34:36
Speaker 13: that are connected in that junction box. It looks like spaghetti.
34:41
Speaker 13: If you were to have something that interrupted the service,
34:45
Speaker 13: if it were if it were severed at the box,
34:48
Speaker 13: then it would require work order to be fixed. It
34:51
Speaker 13: would have been an outage that was permanent, it would
34:55
Speaker 13: not have been intermittent. If that were the intent, then
35:00
Speaker 13: you would have to come back and fix it. It
35:02
Speaker 13: would not come back on.
35:03
Speaker 7: It's all.
35:05
Speaker 2: Okay, now that is making sense. If the box were
35:10
Speaker 2: vandalized and Wi Fi cut off, then it would stay off.
35:16
Speaker 2: They couldn't repair the Wi Fi. Okay, but what about this.
35:22
Speaker 2: Let's see the porch guy, please, control room. What if
35:26
Speaker 2: the purp go with me on this, not just his face,
35:30
Speaker 2: his whole self. Please. What if the purp thought he
35:34
Speaker 2: had disabled it by attacking that utility box. Then he
35:39
Speaker 2: comes up and sees the light on the porch can blinking,
35:43
Speaker 2: or sees some type of activity a motion sensor movement
35:46
Speaker 2: or something. He's go oh h double l and then
35:50
Speaker 2: goes to get the foliage to cover it up. He's like, Okay,
35:53
Speaker 2: well that didn't work. Would that make sense?
35:56
Speaker 9: Bass?
36:00
Speaker 2: Possibly?
36:01
Speaker 13: But I if you were going to the extent to
36:04
Speaker 13: attack a utility infrastructure, you would probably know that that
36:10
Speaker 13: was going to That was not going to affect how
36:12
Speaker 13: the Internet services delivered.
36:15
Speaker 2: Well, you know that because you're a digital forensic expert,
36:19
Speaker 2: but not every regular person would know that. They would
36:25
Speaker 2: see that utility box through Nancy Guthrie's home and go, hey,
36:28
Speaker 2: I'll attack that, I'll take out the Wi Fi. Entirely possible,
36:34
Speaker 2: that would be possible. Yeah, okay, hold on, hold on,
36:39
Speaker 2: Let's see the video of the porch guy walking up.
36:41
Speaker 2: I want to hone in on what we think is
36:44
Speaker 2: a walkie talkie or a signal jammer. Okay, take a
36:49
Speaker 2: look at what's in his pocket. Is it just a
36:52
Speaker 2: walkie talkie and he attempted to take out the utility box?
36:58
Speaker 2: Is the utility box attack the reason investigators are now stating,
37:03
Speaker 2: at least one of them, that they are close to
37:06
Speaker 2: a break through. Straight out to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us
37:11
Speaker 2: He is the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security.
37:16
Speaker 2: Fitz Gibbons leads a team of investigators that go around
37:20
Speaker 2: the world finding and extracting missing people. He is a
37:24
Speaker 2: former marine and he is an Iraqi war vet. There
37:30
Speaker 2: could be the issue of motive. Is this connected to
37:33
Speaker 2: Guthrie or not? Has this happened in similar neighborhoods. If so,
37:39
Speaker 2: is it just a thug? Is it just like a
37:41
Speaker 2: graffiti artist or somebody that goes around knocking down millboxes
37:46
Speaker 2: or throwing stones or shooting out street lamps, no real
37:50
Speaker 2: motive except for the pure joy of it.
37:55
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think Okham's razor tells us that number one
38:00
Speaker 6: could be to try to find copper wire, or number
38:03
Speaker 6: two it fits that second category that you just described,
38:06
Speaker 6: that this is.
38:06
Speaker 7: Just straight up vandalism.
38:09
Speaker 6: I don't believe that this has any connection to Missus
38:12
Speaker 6: Guthrie's disappearance for the simple fact that this would not
38:17
Speaker 6: There's no fiber optic in there. This would have nothing
38:20
Speaker 6: to do with disconnecting a security.
38:25
Speaker 2: Pits gibbons. You know what I think is the strongest
38:27
Speaker 2: argument that this is not connected to Guthrie what Bass
38:31
Speaker 2: said at the get go, James Bass. He said that
38:35
Speaker 2: if that caused the outage, it would have remained outed.
38:40
Speaker 2: You'd have to have somebody come and fix it. The
38:43
Speaker 2: PURP can't destroy it. And what he just happens to
38:46
Speaker 2: be a fiber optic repair person. No, so that I
38:51
Speaker 2: believe is going to be a dead end unless the
38:53
Speaker 2: PURP try to out it with that and it didn't work,
38:59
Speaker 2: and then went to jams. Now I'm going to circle
39:02
Speaker 2: back to jammers, but I want to really hit something
39:05
Speaker 2: with Bass. We've heard so much about data dumps, and
39:12
Speaker 2: I remember starting it on day one, a data dump
39:16
Speaker 2: of all the cell phones in and out of the area.
39:19
Speaker 2: That was before Nanos allowed the FBI in. They lost
39:24
Speaker 2: a lot of valuable time, by the way, while Nanos
39:27
Speaker 2: was twiddling his thumbs. The data dump would have showed
39:31
Speaker 2: all cell phone connectivity in the area. It would have shown,
39:35
Speaker 2: for instance, a you connect, which is a device already
39:39
Speaker 2: pre wired in vehicles, newer vehicles that connect you to
39:43
Speaker 2: the car, Wi Fi iPads that are trying to connect
39:48
Speaker 2: or touch Wi Fi sources as they go by. It
39:53
Speaker 2: could be a smart watch, it could be any number
39:56
Speaker 2: of devices that connect via Wi Fi. But you're saying
40:02
Speaker 2: Google and or Apple could save the day. Now as
40:08
Speaker 2: you're talking, James Bass, remember I'm just a trial lawyer.
40:13
Speaker 2: Dumb me down. For me. Google's already save the day
40:17
Speaker 2: once by getting resurrecting from the dead that porch cam.
40:24
Speaker 2: So what can they do for us? Google or Apple?
40:30
Speaker 13: Most folks don't realize just how much data they create
40:35
Speaker 13: every day, just through normal course of business, every day
40:38
Speaker 13: of their lives. They're creating data points that they couldn't
40:43
Speaker 13: even comprehend. So once you're able to filter down from
40:47
Speaker 13: the cell phone tower dumps, you know, if you can
40:50
Speaker 13: find a specific suspect address or device cell phone, then
40:56
Speaker 13: going to be able to go back to people like
40:58
Speaker 13: Google or Apple. Google clicks more data than Apple does,
41:04
Speaker 13: but for instance, your location points every minute.
41:10
Speaker 2: You completely schemed everyone out when you were talking about
41:17
Speaker 2: how Google, you said, in the background is following you. Well, ye,
41:25
Speaker 2: I'm like my thought on that is fine. Follow me
41:29
Speaker 2: to Kroger, follow me to Walmart. I just be mad
41:31
Speaker 2: if you didn't. But that's me. So you stated that Google,
41:37
Speaker 2: and I guess Apple too, But you mentioned Google is
41:40
Speaker 2: following you in the background. In other words, you don't
41:43
Speaker 2: really know this is happening, and they can say, oh,
41:46
Speaker 2: she parted your car at Walmart? All right, It's like
41:48
Speaker 2: every thirty seconds they're updating your location. How's that going
41:52
Speaker 2: to help me?
41:54
Speaker 13: Well, what it will enable you to do is once
41:57
Speaker 13: you identify this device, you send a search weren't to
42:00
Speaker 13: Google and ask for this information and anyone can can
42:03
Speaker 13: download their information and look at what is being collected.
42:06
Speaker 7: It's free.
42:07
Speaker 13: They'll email it to you and you can review it.
42:10
Speaker 7: But with the.
42:11
Speaker 13: Location stamps, you'll be able to put an individual or
42:14
Speaker 13: the cell phone generally within a three to ten meters radius,
42:18
Speaker 13: you know, anywhere from ten to thirty feet, to a
42:21
Speaker 13: particular latitude and longitude at a millisecond time stamp, so on.
42:28
Speaker 13: Once you get the device and you get this information,
42:31
Speaker 13: now you see when they're taking their steps, where they've
42:35
Speaker 13: parked their car, where they've gone shopping, where they how
42:38
Speaker 13: they drive to work, and how they drive home. It
42:41
Speaker 13: unlocks an entire history because that data is saved for
42:45
Speaker 13: the life of the account.
42:48
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the
42:50
Speaker 2: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred
42:56
Speaker 2: two two five five three two four repeat eight hundred
43:01
Speaker 2: two two five five three two four, or if you
43:05
Speaker 2: wish to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two
43:09
Speaker 2: seven four six three five two zero eight eight two
43:14
Speaker 2: seven four sixty three. There is a one point two
43:18
Speaker 2: plus million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts
43:23
Speaker 2: of Nancy Guthrie. One point two plus million dollars on
43:28
Speaker 2: the table. There does not have to be an arrest,
43:31
Speaker 2: much less a conviction. We continue to do our very
43:36
Speaker 2: best to keep the search for Nancy Guthrie alive. Goodbye friend,