Latest / Automated with Brian Heater / Dianne Eldridge on AI, Automation, and the Future of Work

Transcript

Dianne Eldridge on AI, Automation, and the Future of Work · Automated with Brian Heater

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have the sort of a typical middle class kid like my kids grow up.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: They have this vision for themselves.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: By this stage, I'm going to do this.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to they have this trajectory.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to survive.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't have expectations.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't have expectations.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So anything happened every stage, I'm grateful and it just bonus.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would just I start here, I'm grateful for my engineering job.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I started.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then after a few years, I gained some confidence and people say, You can be a manager.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Can I?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then I look around and say, okay, if if that guy could do it, I I mean I'm better than that guy.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I would just as I that's how I get every literally every single step, right?
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: But that's one thing is I will I will look at it and say, Well, if that guy can do it, I should be able to do it.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, it's Brian Heater, managing editor at A3.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: We are back with another episode of Automated.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: This week we're speaking with AWS Generative AI executive and A3 board member Diane Eldridge.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: Diane appeared on an AI panel that I moderated at Automate back in May and then immediately made her way onto my short list of automated interview asks.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: She's always a compelling conversation, and this episode with all of its twists and turns is certainly not an exception.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you're enjoying the show, don't forget to like and subscribe.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you can also subscribe to the automated newsletter over at automated.fm.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, please enjoy this conversation with Diane Eldridge.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So a really understated part of my job is that I end up reading a lot of abstracts.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I read a lot of um research abstracts, academic abstracts.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: I was reading a very uh unique abstract earlier today, and I'm gonna read back re read uh the first couple sentences to it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think this will uh bring back some memories for you.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what what has been the worst toilet that you've ever had to use?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine being given two bricks and then shown an open field where you had to make that into a toilet.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Diane Eldridge compares different stages of her life to some of the worst and most high-technology toilets she has encountered throughout the process.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Why toilets?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh asked to do a talk for a society of it was a keynote for a society of women engineers.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what they want me to talk about is the your your background, the trajectory, because this is a mixture of women engineers.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are immigrants, so and then I draw that background, and then it clicked to me that um what's unique about it is this everyday thing that shows up in your life, and then it's so it's almost just perfect representative of three sort of a period of my life and then just show where I come from.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So the worst toilet and the saddest toilet and the most ridiculous, advanced toilet, and it just showcased my life.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a second-generation women engineer in my family.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: We have three generations, that's my legacy, Brian.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was grew up born and raised in China, and then I came to the West and built out a life for myself, and then eventually raised a family, and then I successfully just raised a uh a third generation of women engineer, and she started working at Siemens two years ago.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of it just all clicked together, and used toilet seems like is attention graphing also memorable, so people remember it, and then years later, people still talking to me about it.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So she's kind of three and a half, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because if you've you did the engineering thing for half of your career, when you when you have two engineering generations ahead of you, did you feel like you were being pushed in that direction?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think if you're uh this is a typical um Asian family, it's not about engineering.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it mostly the the spirit of it's about fiercely independent.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and then how you can do that.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And as uh growing up as an Asian parent, and then most Asian people will parents will just instill it in their kids, and the only way to do it is education.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And why?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because education will get you a good job.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what is a good job?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's engineering, it's doctors and lawyers, and that's kind of um on the surface of it, but the heart of it actually, it's the you know, doesn't if it's the my mother is sort of instilled in in me, and then I still in my daughter, this fiercely independence, and then you have to rely, depend on yourself, and then only yourself, you know how the airplane, um, when the air when you're on airplane, they say when when something happened, when you need to put your own mask on, and then you can take care of your children and other people.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be strong.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think that's a center.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then to and a STEM and then engineering, and if you have the aptitude, I think it just it's a it's a means, right?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then um in in our family, it just so happened.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: We all have it in us and we all love it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: So so we're uh so that's how it ended up to to be this way.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but I mean I it also I I I'm guessing it can't be understated, you know, what it took for somebody of her generation or her mother's generation to seek that and have success in that career.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can see the trajectory of our the the you know our legacy, it's getting easier and easier, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my my mother grew up, she was Chinese, but she was born and raised on a small island in Indonesia.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And there was no high school for girls.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like usually boys go to high school and go to the city, go to the girls just finished middle school and just done.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And she she fought, right?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: She fought and then and and and go on hunger strike or something to be allowed to go with the boys to go to the city, to go to the high school.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And after high school, she she just she jumped on the plane because she wanted to go to college, and there was no college indonesia for girls at that time.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: She just jumped on the ship and went to China, and then because there's college there, and then she ended up to be a chemical engineer.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, so because she just had that in her, and then you can see almost a mirror of my mother's life.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I was I was born and raised Danny in China, and then and at the end of Cultural Revolution, and it was and then I so I and then I went to school and I jumped on a plane instead of a ship, and then I crossed, I got a scholarship in Canada.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I went there by myself with no money, and then just with his scholarship, and try to see like I told my mother, I'm just gonna try to make a see if I can search a better life for us for our family, and then I am the eldest daughter, and then I'm going to do it.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I went there, and then so that's kind of and then so now, yeah, it's almost 25 years later.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm here we are, and then so raised another another kid, uh, another girl that's uh uh going through that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then well, our life is just progressively easier, but you can see the theme.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically looking for independence, looking for better life for yourself and for your family, and just go out.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Most most immigrants um go through the stages, uh, I I summarize, go through a few stages, right?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Survival, stabilize, and then uh integrate, uh and then you thrive, right?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people go through multi-generations from survival to thrive.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I I feel I I am proud of myself that I'm the first generation.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: I landed here when I was 20, and then I was able to pass those uh across all those stages from survival to um um and to thriving.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot to say about your personal grid in perseverance and hard work, but also a lot to say about the the country that we're in, right?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then so that it's this country and there's a people here and it's the system here, allow me the space to do this.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's the combination of it.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I mean you you alluded to the cultural revolution, so given uh it it was ending at the time, but even despite that fact, you felt like the this opportunity still wasn't open for you in China.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at that time it's it's it's just it's difficult, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And in China when I left, um it was uh it was early 90s, uh and I grew up in the 80s, it was not the same as today.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So China went leaps and bounds, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um uh the the uh the the the amazing uh the amazing uh sort of a pro progress that in my lifetime to witness it's it's it's stunning to watch a history making, right?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because you have to think about I was I I grew up in central Beijing.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could jump on a bicycle and rode to Tiaman Square like half an hour.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's how central I grew up in.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like central Beijing and that's capital city in China.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was little, there was literally so horse buggies in front of.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not exaggerating, right?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: So because whores will come in and then with with vegetables and come in, and then we will see that in our, you know, on our streets.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we went from that to today, like it just go go on uh uh TikTok and see what's China today.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So but when I left, that China was still the way it was, uh, you know, and so it was uh it was just just the beginning of the reform.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and there's fiercely independent, and then there's a story that you told me about your mom, which I think probably goes like a step beyond fiercely independent, and and to such a degree that I you're you're not in any position to make excuses for why you can't do something when your mom has taken those kind of risks to get to where she was.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, because I I I think that's the um I think that that's the sort of a sort of spirit and DNA uh instilled uh in me, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then so you if you see how hard she worked, and and I talked about growing up and I was so grateful actually for that piece of uh childhood memory because my sister was four years younger than me.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: She didn't remember any of it because when she had the memory, our life already got better.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I remembered it because we we lived in a we we grew up in in in that that's the end of cultural revolution, and we were we live in the a three-bedroom apartment shared with two other families, and each family had two kids.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So this is three-bedroom apartments.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So the three mothers were shared a very small kitchen, each one has a little burner, and then they share one sink, and we share one toilet.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: The all three families, each one, five, each family of four people.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we grew up in that kind of an environment, right?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and we have one room, the four of us.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and and everything was rationed at that time.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was if you think about the earliest stage of Soviet or or North Korea today, that was kind of like that, right?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: So everything was rationed into sugar, soy sauce, everything.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So my mom would give me a little book, say, go get this month's ration of our of our soy sauce.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would go to the corner store, it's barely empty, and then get it and then take it back.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: That was my memory.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, since I had no memories of it, but I remember.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So once you remember that, and then you you you went to um you know, countryside to see the worst toilet that I I experienced on a field trip, you you you know, you you put things in perspective.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Once you've seen the real misery, and you everything is perspective, right?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I am that mother and teach my kids like I I would be threatening.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't eat me out, I'm gonna send you back to rural china for a year.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and you mean you know, you mentioned the I think it was three the three stages of of that kind of early immigration process.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm and I'm guessing that the struggle being the first stage, like you're you you were pretty well set up to deal with the struggle, it sounds like.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think in spirit-wise, right?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And because and also because the first stage is survival.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: When you're actually in survival mode, yeah, when you're in survival mode, you you you take uh, you know, you don't take anything for granted, any opportunity, and you you hustle, right?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just you want it you want to do that.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So any opportunity you got, you you you take it and you're grateful and then you work hard and try to make the best out of it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the key differences when I first the whole uh I had this uh 20-some years career, and then from uh factory floor engineer all the way to executive in a in a very uh sort of a male-dominant industry, I would say, is because it's triple threats.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh uh engineering, manufacturing, and oil and gas, and then now tech, right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and for for a for Chinese girl, like when I first started, it was so I didn't have the sort of a typical middle class like my kids grow up.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: They have this vision for themselves.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: By this stage, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna they have this trajectory.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to do that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I didn't have expectations.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So anything happened every stage, I'm grateful and it's just bonus.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would just I start here, I'm grateful for my engineering job.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I started, and then after a few years, I gained some confidence, and people say, You can be a manager.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Can I?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then I look around and say, Okay, if if that guy could do it, I I I mean, I'm better than that guy.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I would just as I that's how I get every literally every single step, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that's one thing is I will I will look at it and say, Well, if that guy can do it, I should be able to do it.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of and then I and I I don't look up, right?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't look up.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then so then, but but but ask the progress, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: The other, but the other aspect of it, you have to look, you have to hustle and you have to ask.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because every single position I get from manage from engineer to manager to overseas assignment to a different job to eventually running to be a uh you know executive to running a business, I ask.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody say, hand it to me, say, what about you?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: What Diane, do you want to do this?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: I ask for every single one of it.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go to Asia to to to be part of leadership.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want to come back to US to be in the headquarters to do something else.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to change jobs.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you so that's a combination of it.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Once you see it, you have you need to build up the confidence to go ask for it.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: So everything, every position I I I changed.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: I pursued it and I I asked, and then sometimes even fought for it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Why is asking so hard for people?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I struggle with that too, you know.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: I I struggle with, you know, um trying to not obviously not take things for granted, but um uh, you know, not um I guess not overshoot and not overvalue myself.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's surprising because I always have this um idea that men always um men seem to have more audacity, I would say.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can say confidence than women to to ask because that's kind of my experience.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so men typically have some confidence from negotiating salary, asking for more war, demanding some uh demanding the next promotion.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but for asking through questions, why is asking hard very hard?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's the feel of rejection that's universal, right?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in how how to adjust when you face rejection, because some sometimes once you have the rejection and you go in, people tend to go inwards and then say it must be me and something is not something wrong about me and then it's not good enough.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you let that fester in you, and then it could it could be kind of toxic for yourself, it could uh it could set you back.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's safer to just not ask, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's safer to say that then you don't face rejection.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's universal.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: I have passed on opportunities, I can count.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: There are a few key moments of my life when I asked, I actually got it.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: But there are a few key moments of my life because of fear of failure.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't ask.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I to this day I still wonder, what if I did that?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: What if I did, what if I asked?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: What if I went?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then so I could have gone, my my life could be like a different, or I could have gone that way.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I could have got that opportunity and be amazing.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, but I made the decision at a time as I was so unsure, and then I didn't want to live with the consequences of if I failed, I was worried that that would crush my spirit and confidence.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So and then I need to I made the decision not to do it.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, but I wonder to this to this day.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I was thinking about this too, because we've we've all seen people and we've all worked with people, and I'm sure some of us have been the person who is in the job that they're not qualified for.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like that happens sometimes, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people get promoted to that position.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and and may and maybe to a certain extent, like it is good to be cautious about the the roles that you take and and and and to be very you know cognizant of of what your skill sets are and what you think that you can do.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you like you want to step out of your comfort zone, but you know, you you probably at a certain point in your career have a pretty good idea of like for the most part what you can and can't do.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And this is where the sponsorship, mentorship, uh, and also uh your um your networking kind of uh uh skill come in.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because at this kind of juncture, and I try to be that person once I uh once I um once I raised up and uh rise up and then become leader, I try to be that person for.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: You're giving back.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm giving back because I know one sentence or one opportunity or one uh exposure at a crucial meeting can change this person's confidence and trajectory in life, or just one referral for work, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then so I don't really say no when people ask him, what you know, not not spam, but when people ask me for LinkedIn connections, I don't say no.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And when they ask for uh can I have a call, even as a stranger, if I look at the profile as legit, I give 20 minutes, half an hour phone call, and at least the first one, because I I think it means a world to this person, and then and then and then that change that can change that person's whole perspective.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And at work, I I had that experience running into really, really, you know, great leaders and give you that opportunity, and then so once you have that backup of a or a sponsor, it means it means huge difference, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then, but I also run into toxic bosses, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then and so I see that those kind of bosses sort of uh crush other people's career or set other people back, and then I try to skirt around it and not to let that happen to me or if uh um and then to try to avoid.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I pick my bosses so carefully.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I because people quit jobs, they don't quit bosses, and then I follow bosses too, because I think for that for that exact reason, because that could give you, make you uh uh have uh accelerated or can set you back for years and not just career, it can set you back mentally for years, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And people don't realize that.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so if your leader and if you listen to this, be very, very careful about the words that you say, especially to the people that's junior, just starting.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because you say a one word that could, you know, 10 years later, if you tell that person, I bet he's re he or she still remembered that word that you said to them.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they that might define them for a long time before they can get out of it.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean I I think about this in my own life and just sort of getting older that um it does feel like, you know, what whether in work or school or anything else, that those earlier years in your life feel so much longer and more consequential because everything takes on a much deeper meaning because everything is so much more formative at that period.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I remember the first time, the first time a person say, um, there's a m there's a the spot is uh my my my my manager at the time and he's moving on and he said I'm going to do it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Who's going to be our boss?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: Who's gonna be our manager?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, why not you?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was so shocked.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was sitting there for a few seconds.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean, you think I can do it?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Of course you could do it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was so I remembered that moment.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then I and then I was sitting there and um on the way back, I said, you know, if he thinks I could do it, of course I could do it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: But until that moment, I never really entered my my thoughts that one day I could do it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's crazy, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then that that yeah.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: So so so that brings up an interesting question though, and and obviously like the people who need to be reached out to the most are the people probably who have the most difficulty asking for help, who are the quietest people.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do to, or how do you reach out to the people who can't ask for help?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: To help people that, especially your leader, um, for when you actually have people from like with different at uh different sorts of tendencies to attributes, right?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Especially the introverted people.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this is very, very common in for STEM majors, for engineers, for tech workers.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are introverted people.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and in in our society, especially in the West, we bias towards the out uh the uh the outgoing people, like people like me, extroverted people like me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm extremely conscious of it because I raised, you know, my son is introvert, my husband is introvert, and they're all very, very smart.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's why to be an empathetic leader and to recognize so to be a leader, a lot of people think that um you know you the leader is being you are you you have the capability to do more things or than other people that's not the the key of being a leader is to be up to recognize everybody on your team's strength and how do you give them the space and confidence and in their terms ideally for them to thrive right I so when and so what I'm always trying to do is I recognize it's in in people don't realize if you do that well it's actually benefit you as a manager tremendously because if a person is extremely well organized you give you give that person a job and you've it that kind of organized job will run project manage and if a person is extremely smart and always ideas and you put them in RD right and they have the innovative design just come up like in like 10 times speed than other people and then based on that you can it could set your ear for a really good run for a put for for a new product a next version and design and everything.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all centered on this person's idea and and then and brilliance of of of the uh of the design and then and the speed of it and then and so that's kind you you need to be recognized that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then if the person is introverted as a leader you need to constantly elevate their name in in in meetings in front of leaders put their name up and say here is that person's design look at what the a job that this person did look at this we were able to achieve this schedule is because of this person's fantastic project management job.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You put their name up you have to constantly do that.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: And people don't realize that's free.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're not asking for races right especially for knowledge workers.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: We just we want respect and and and and you know meaning of the job and then and you know the uh and this kind of recognition go miles and miles.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's important and a lot of the introverted people is again if they they're not very good in the group setting but they're very good on one-on-ones.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: I also set up them with people that one-on-ones so they actually have a uh they have still have the relationship in the small setting so and then have them to speak uh in that setting so they can speak up so you can actually catch their ideas.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of ways to do it but you have to be mindful and uh thoughtful and then be systematic and then intentional to to draw it out to people.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really a key to be a good leader and to build a really really high functional team.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I think one of the kind of most uh potentially harmful traits that maybe we don't talk about much is this notion and and and I I think it's probably like a subconscious notion that success is kind of a zero sum game on a team wherein this is why a lot of managers get defensive if somebody under team does well does that does that detract from your success?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: Are you worried about them getting promoted and them getting the the laws over you?
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's so right because when that person to in my in my mind right um like I know we're right now there's a corporate uh kind of a uh trend uh that sort of we don't maybe we'll try to eliminate the middle managers and then and then try to remove the layers and they say to be more lean.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of organizations especially industrial organizations those middle managers are the backbones of it.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So without look at the system, without look at how people are getting support and then you just do a shortcut and then say because once you eliminate that you have instant quarterly report and then you show that on your bottom line you cut because that's really expensive.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then once you move them and then you can show some financial reward instantly I worry that without proper intention to make sure people have the right support it's going to collapse because middle manager sometimes is the backbone because they they manage up they manage down and they're working managers because they they work themselves they have their own day job they have to do the work and they manage people and support people and they don't get paid that much.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: So so once you remove them and that's also a good stepping stone for people want to climb the ladder right one and so if you remove that layer what how how are you going to deal with those dynamics so uh it's a um and that's one thing and that's when they're good but the other side of it is what when when the senior management there's a there's an understanding gap because when they put a manager in the middle they don't think about it that much and that's such an error because um because they just pull up they they they casually it's a middle manager.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So why would we care about but those are the people that you want to put the right people there because once that they could be the feed if you put the right person there that could be the feed for your future a senior leader.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then if they function well like you know it's it's it's a it's a positive flywheel and then your your ground level will function well but they don't think about it that much they just go to each group and maybe casually put the last sort of maybe quote unquote top performance and they not only they pull their top performance from their top sales guys top engineer design things they don't ask if they want to be manager they're good at it they're empathetic they like people even right not everybody like people that's not there's nothing there's no right or wrong not everybody can be so but they they just put a person there with no not that much thoughts and say you you're the leader now because you seem good and then without that and they don't give them enough support it's not going to work.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think they need we need to re-think about as we go through this our future of work or redesign our our workflow because of AI and then you know how do we look at where to put people and everything I think this needs to be rethinked because at the end of the day people do business with people we're not gonna say robot do business with robot with robot.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe that we sell things to people that make those decisions and to make it work in the I think I think in the foreseeable future you still need to be key human in the loop to make sure everything works especially in the industrial area because we don't want people things to explode and people we don't want people to die.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to make sure everything needs to be you know their key area that people human in the loop and then where there's human you you have human dynamics and people need leaders people need examples people need models right so that's why you actually need to be extra careful to see think about who you put in a position of power at work.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that will have a huge impact um on on your um on your bottom line.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah this this is interesting and and I don't know if this works as an analogy you can tell me um but something that I've been thinking about a lot for obvious reasons um in my job but certainly as I moved over to to A3 is uh is upskilling right um like Amazon is a perfect example of this you know you put a bunch of robots on on the floor um maybe they are just placing some jobs but they're creating new jobs and and the question is how do we how do we train for those for for those jobs right I mean how do we give the these people a new skill set and and that that to me it's similar in a sense you know I mean what whether it's a a what we would call white collar or a blue collar job ultimately it's about seeing something in that person where we feel like they could they they have some kind of skill set that's applicable to another way of thinking or you know another way of of doing business.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I work in the trenches in AI for the past five years with um AWS I think if you ask me what I worried about that's what I worried about is the future what's going to happen to the workers right when the when the robot comes and then there's not enough because right now everybody's so focused on technology and then try to do that race.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is where um you know this the sociology the philosophers and you know the the the regulators and that I think they that they all need to start thinking about that before it's too late.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And just like the you know we're still living through the facts our our you know our kids a generation that generation is living the the fallout or or impact of social media because there was no and we just let them grow up with it and we don't know right we don't know what what what's gonna happen.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't grow up with social media but my kids did.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um we we we're waiting to see what the impact is and as does ai going through and it's it it in an exponential speed um I don't feel there's enough thoughts uh as the society as a whole to think about what are we going to do with people.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Not everybody um can be retrained um and and there's a two aspect like people that can be retrained and or people that don't want to be retrained or there are people who have been doing the same thing you know their entire life and now they're in their you know 60s and and it's and it's can be difficult at a certain point in your life to learn a completely new skill set.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: If AI can do good then let's make sure that AI can so if I always joke about so what do you want AI to do I want AI to cure cancer.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want AI to solve climate climate change and oh AI come with a a s solution for as you know society as a whole we don't have to go you know like the uh the the machineries and then we remove people from those breakback work in the farm and so this you know and in in dirty factories and dangerous mines and then maybe the robots could do that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we help people to find new meaning of of work maybe so I I don't have the answer.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just wish more people will would would discuss it and talk about it we're here to talk about it in a podcast and as A3 we're talking about automations but I think as this body and we also want to talk about our in this industry as we automate and then is it from the spirit of make people safe um remove the the the the mutanes and the borings and everything right and in the meantime how are we going to help our members um all these workers and how are we going to get them can we offer work together to find new new way of living or new meanings right so how do we how do we deal with that as we advance the automation right because we're we're robots and we're about automations and and everything so so what else we can do to collectively in the industry can do I think that's that will be a very interesting thing that we all we we start to talk about in parallel instead of just talking about you know robots and and uh automation in isolation.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I've really thought about in these terms before but it makes a lot of sense I think a lot of the hesitancy around it is especially when it comes to new technologies like this that we're all we're just waiting to see how things shake out right we're waiting to see like what it looks like 10 years from now but obviously 10 years from now we'll be waiting another 10 years from now and a lot will have happened to a lot of people will have been impacted in the meantime.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I I I agree so I think that's the that's one of that's the issue that um the the whole industries as we build more robots as we advance more we want to think about it I think um my my uh my original country uh China it's very interesting so I'm watching it quite closely right they just had a uh it's just in the news I think our our uh atheist uh Jeff president just went there so they had a a robot olympics humanoid games yeah I had a video of them running they run tracks and everything so and they're quite advanced but China also have this massive problem right so they have massive population um what are they going to do as they have robots replace you know um replace all these workers what what are they doing with it um um so it'd be interesting to see that model because that that's a I would call them state capitalism because it's capitalist that's controlled by state so and they have some uh policy uh sort of a control um they can make something happen uh overnight because of the system so it would be interesting to see how they are dealing with that because they have um uh it will be uh we can have a pay a uh I I've been just like pay a cold close watch to see what what China would do because they already have light off factories like me Xiaomi they're making phones like they're yeah they already have that they're already there um their robot is a little bit more advanced and then they're in people's lives so they're social they're they're influencers and then live with robots and then you see you see that person and with a robot dog and a robot human robot and in the in in her daily life and what what they're doing every day and it's it's it's you know he's she's an influencer so it would be interesting to see uh what's going on so it would be good to see what what that society is doing.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: My understanding is that you know I mean there there's an issue there's an issue in the US with um an aging aging society it's been a big issue in Japan for a while but it it seems like China is really facing that problem of an aging population and what to do and and that's kind of what they're up against right that's that's what what a lot of this automation ostensibly is working to solve.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly I think they're saying well we don't have enough workers so what are we going to do?
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's everybody's aging so let's make let's build robots right but then um so yeah so that was uh that was interesting but now with AI they're replacing white collar jobs so what are we going to do with these young people that can get a job so that's uh that's another thing right and then so there's also discussion about when uh AI is um you know the potential that um the consulting model like business model is collapsing because if you you don't have people to feed into uh the consulting uh businesses uh you know or were junior bankers or like junior position white collar if they're not here today who's gonna feed the how how are we gonna feed the the fee feed the senior positions without experiences you know so how's that going to work you can see them in the news right people have uh the young graduates just you know um I think the headline was young graduates and from Dartmouth or something had to work at Chipotle because you couldn't find jobs so um because they the the traditional the social contract of you graduate from a good college and you you will you will have a career and and then start building building out your career and family and and it seems like it's it's showing cracks right so the what do we what's our answer with uh with with with that yeah I something that and I and I think that's this is inevitable is when we start talking about stuff like this we have to frame everything in terms of abstraction right because it there these are huge numbers of people that we're we're we're talking about here you know entire generations especially you know in in China just absolutely massive population so you know let's narrow the focus a little bit and and obviously this is something that you've been you've been thinking about yourself.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean pragmatically as you look at what's happening right now to white collar work with AI what can you do in your job to help prepare your employees for the way their jobs are going to evolve?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a number one top questions um everybody every AI practitioners is is talking about it I've I've been listening to a lot of podcasts and reading and listen to people I don't know if anyone actually have a good answer because everything just changes.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then there there's um I was on the AI panel there's like there's there there in general there's two school of thoughts there are people that's extremely optimism up very it's just very optimistic and they think that it's going to change and it's going to be better.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's also people that think that extremely dark that could you know it's something could happen that could you know some be some people use AI to do something horrible and then a bioweapon or something it could wipe out 50% of the humanity right and then and then there was a one panel with all the AI thought leaders on the stage what's what's concerning is that half of the panel is on the doom side to believe that could be a possibility.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a possibility so that's uh that's very very concerning right and uh so um as a person that practice in AI uh I'll give you my two of my practices one is that the conversation like this and I try to raise the voice and concerns and whenever you see somebody that's leaders company leaders and you want to put these thoughts in their mind so please think about it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Think about this is people's livelihood and then there's for for this society humanity this kind of a high level yeah I mean that's that's something sorry yeah just to interject but that's something that I always say because you know this is this has been very important to me.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is why I'm always posting like uh job lists is again getting back to the idea of abstractions especially as somebody who has covered big tech companies so often uh jobs become abstractions when you're talking about companies laying off tens of thousands of people and it's and it's easy to forget that each one of those people is a person.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: On the ground level what I tell my friends my colleagues and my customers what I do is you know like as I sell AI that's what I do like I I might that's my job I will go to customers and then enterprise customers big or small and say here let's figure out like as a strategist let's figure out how AI can help you to transform your business right and then so if you talk to the senior level they're all very excited because this could be you know give them new revenue model it could cut their cost and and everything but the elephant in the room says the cut cost the number one call cut cost costing is to you don't need that many workforce so I would try to focus on look you can actually based on your existing workforce how you can produce more.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully you don't go there you can say based on my existing workforce how do I make more how do I come up with more revenue how do I make my sales guys my sales more or produce more so that will be the thing to focus on instead of going well how many people I can cut so I'm trying to I'm trying to balance in my own head so I I can convince myself I'm not doing something evil.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's one thing because I worry yeah I'm worried trust me if it goes overtime yeah I'm in the AI trenches like I said I don't know if I'm doing something evil I don't want to be right so I I I try to come up with return on investment always focus on the upside how do we do that to help you to make your machine produce more make your people produce more make them sell more and so let's use this to figure out what's the new revenue that you can find right so that will be the one that I will focus on growth right rather than cut cost.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of what I wanted to focus on and on the leaders on the ground level people are extremely the like you know there's a joke about the number one people the the number one rule when you sell AI is not to sell people that you're going to that that their job is going to be uh replaced by AI right that's the jokes that say if you sell AI don't do that.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now what I wanted to try to tell people like look it's you cannot stop the trend right AI is coming and as an individual so work with me let's work together and we'll figure out so you know what coming out of this project as a person you can do is you can put a solid AI deployment project on your resume say I I my team I myself have worked with Amazon and then deployed an AI project.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you actually can improve your own resume and then so you can put it to your own boss to get promotion or if you go out to to get jobs or whatever and this is will be a valuable experience that you can put it on.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: So use this as a learning opportunity right so instead of just being like being a blocker and then so you know and then because you can't really as an individual it's it's it's going to be kind of it's not going to be productive for anybody.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: So why not just work together and and get what what's in there for you for this person there right so I'm trying to get to be very pragmatic and honest and look at me in the eye say this is why you and I work together and then see we can do something so you can we like we can put your name on this we can promote it on your on your on on LinkedIn so we work together on something like so you have you can claim that experience right and then so everybody's trying to get AI experience why not use me use me as as as a reference right so that's kind of what I what I what I was telling my what I would tell my customer on the ground level.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think I fe I think I figured it all out I think I cracked it okay okay And and then this is what this is why you have to like listen 45 minutes into the into the podcast episode because that's when the the billion dollar idea comes.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: We create an AI.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't replace blue-collar workers, doesn't replace white-collar workers, it replaces CEOs.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: All of a sudden they're the ones who are worried about having their jobs taken over.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, there are people joking about it always.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: There are people joking about it.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I think uh so I just but what's important is we need to keep having this conversation, Brian, because um otherwise it would just be a whole bunch of so nothing, like no offense to tech bros.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: It would just be always about tech bros and then they go sycophantic and they just talk about, oh, what this look at what this can do.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: It can do this now, it can do that now.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes if you're not thinking about this, right?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it reminds I feel like I'm watching a person that being sold by their masters, by the accounting money, and they have no idea they're being sold.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't, I let's not be that person, right?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's not in anybody's it's not in anybody's best interest, including the shareholders, to be a cheerleader to a fault for a technology.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be very pragmatic and you have to be very realistic.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: And again, this is something that that I'm sure that you're dealing with a lot with these conversations around how we're going to implement generative AI, you know, in industry that I'm talking to a lot of people right now about, you know, what humanoids like can and can't do, and distinguishing these really cool videos that we're seeing from like scaling in in the actual world.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that and that's that's that's one of the things that we really need to get better at as society is like figuring out ways to really give a realistic view of what technology actually can do for people right now.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I so agree because I that's why I almost you know how in in the medicine, in the medical field, there's a a huge discipline about morality and then ethic uh ethical.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we I think for the for the for the for I think going forward, we need that institution, federation of so of that equivalent for human for for for for robots for AI.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I do think that because who's going we need we need that kind of a tribunal, almost kind of like a standard, and it's and then and then have the uh people that have enough uh care about the old the the the the larger goods of society and from humanity point of view, from society, history and and all this, right?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: All these kind of instead of just let you know uh just tech people to think about because they're brilliant, they're very brilliant at code.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh to make a whole lot of to make a whole lot of money, to be a billionaire, to be able to come up with some brilliant tech does not mean that you get to make a decision for the humanity.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's not their um that's not not necessarily their expertise.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um a lot of them know nothing about history, don't get don't they don't read those kind of books, they don't really read philosophy books, they don't, so they, you know, so so they're not they're in no position to make that kind of decision for all of us, right?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we we do as a we need to demand that.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: We need to demand that kind of uh ethical, responsible, um um, you know, the the the the the standard or or um just like medical, right?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is considered ethical, what is considered not.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we need to do that.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well at the at the end of the at the end of those, you know, you you're watching a medication ad and it's it looks beautiful, somebody's like sailing on a um you know a surfboard through a like a sea of wheat and it's wonderful.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then the end somebody really quickly reads off all of the horrible things that can happen to you when you take it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's what we need.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: We need we need that that person quickly saying like all of the all of the downsides to technologies at the end of the ad.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then you need the medical ethical board to make a decision, right?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: When where is the research going to you know stop?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where is it gonna start to to at what point you decide this is going too far and not, you know, ethically we cannot doing this kind of experiment to go that go that route to to find out, right?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: So so so there's a there's you know, the huge long history of uh of a standard for certain experiments in in a lot of countries are not legal, right?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we need to uh I think for for um technology, you need certain the same same set of uh practice.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh especially for robots, right?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: I I I think that we don't have to create something from scratch because I'm a firm believer that I'm I'm a trained engineer, so we have centuries, you know, starting from Romans, right?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then because you know their structures they build still standing today.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: The Romans are amazing builders, Chinese amazing builders that they build because they have sound engineering practice, right?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: As an engineer, you you need to, you know, it's build on a foundation of science.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and and the other thing is what it's it's it's uh failures after failures, a collapse after collapse, right?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at engineering standards today, it could be oil and gas or civil engineering, people build bridges and people build machineries and everything.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they all have to have certifications, they all have to have rules, they have to follow certain standards, right, to build a ship, whatever it is, right?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at every single of those rules, Brian, almost every single behind every single rules, something bad happened.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: People died, something exploded, something collapsed.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, let's let's make rules.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: So let's make sure this never happens again.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So for centuries, the central engineering practice built out and standard in all disciplines, chemical engineering, civil engineering, chemical engineering, we all have electrical engineering, we all have these engineers.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: So keep people safe, keep machine running, and then nothing explode to harm harm people.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for AI right now, there is no because it's not in physical AI yet.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not in the physical.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as these software, so software code, you know, if if it's a call center, it the the chop give you a wrong answer.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: No biggie.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: You just ask and that ask again.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: The human being is to ask again and give you the right answer.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's okay.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as it across physical ad into vehicles, into machineries, and then you know, it's so it's entirely different bar.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: You you you have no fall tolerance because life is at stake, right?
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: So once you get that, you need to adopt all these sound engineering practices built up for centuries.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think we we don't have to start from scratch.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: You can leverage those to make sure once the AI crossed the boundaries of interphysical, uh, you need you you can we can leverage those so to make sure it's safe.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh we're just about out of time.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have to have you back on in the not too distant future.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Diane, thank you so much for joining us.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, oh thank you.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again to Diane for taking the time to chat with us.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: She's got the kind of uh transparency that you don't often get with executives at big companies, which obviously makes for uh a much more compelling podcast.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: If you've made it this far, which you clearly have, please like and subscribe, tell a friend, and don't forget to subscribe to the automated newsletter over at automated.fm.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks again for joining us, and we will catch you just about this time next week for another episode of Automated