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Unpacking The Style-ish Podcast Drama · Outspoken the Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Outspoken. It's your dose of the
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: hottest influencer and pop culture news twice a week. I'm
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Amy Torver and coming up on today's show. Shameless Media's
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: podcast woes as their fashion podcast hosts are labelled mean girls.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: But first, outrage has spilled over on TikTok after influencer
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Sam Guggenheimer shared a video of her bestie Bill Barker
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: referring to a future housemate as a fatty. Gen Z
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: it girl Sofa Dofa was also dragged into the drama
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: with many wondering if they were taking a pot shot
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: at their former friend. Now, Soph, if you'll believe it,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: it was actually Sam who willingly shared this video to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: her socials. Yeah, so this controversy erupted when Sam shared
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: a rather candid conversation between her and fellow influencer Bill Barker.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: So the video was actually shared to the model's secondary
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: TikTok account, which is called Tall Dreams Short Girl. So
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: that account has over 80,000 followers. And this is a
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: pretty common thing for Gen Z influencers to have these
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: secondary accounts where they share more casual sorts of content,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: which is generally less filtered. Now, in the video, which
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: has since been deleted, Sam was getting ready to move
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: out of the rental that she shares with her friend,
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Lily Sutcliffe, whose side note works at Cook Eye. She's
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: pretty high up there. Now, she told her followers to
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: apply for her room if anyone was looking for a rental.
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: And this is where Bill jumped in and said that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: there would be some prerequisites for those who apply let's
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: have a listen to what went down.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: You can even have a picture of me on on
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: the wall if you need this could be a skinny girl.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: That no you.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Can have drawers covered.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: Bill what the fuck that is so fucking true that
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: is so true.
• 1:50
  Speaker 5: Though no it is not.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Bill Anyway, he's absolutely been on one. We recorded a
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: podcast today and it was honestly diabolical. I'm keeping it in.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: I'm keeping it in and exposing you.
• 2:03
  Speaker 6: I am.
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: Do not.
• 2:04
  Speaker 6: I am.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not editing it out.
• 2:07
  Speaker 5: Just careful because you have a podcast coming out. I'm
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: editing that one out.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's the update.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Struggling out here.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: For those who haven't seen this video Sam is looking
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: almost faux shocked by Bill's comments but she also looks
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: as though she's smirking and sort of laughing.
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: I think the fact that Sam didn't flag this during
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: the editing process and willingly uploaded it herself may be
• 2:42
  Speaker 5: a bit of a reflection of the conversations that go
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: on behind closed doors that they perhaps don't even blink
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: an eye to.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: But that's the thing that's so confusing about this is
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: in the clip she says, I'm going to expose you.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I'm going to put this out there. I'm not editing
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: this out because Bill was like, please don't upload this.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: But she has actually edited the clip because she bleeped
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: out her former friend, Sofa Dofa's name in this. So
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: she did have some time to edit it. It's not
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: like she just threw it up online without thinking about it.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not making an excuse, but we need to point
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: out that these influencers are in their early twenties, but
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: they have been on social media for such a long time.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: that that's what's most surprising, that they would think that
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: this was appropriate to share. I think the thing that
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: is a little bit awkward too is that I know
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about mean girls and this
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: tag of mean girls in this episode, but Sam has
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: been followed by this mean girl persona that people have,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know whether you could say they've created it
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: of her online or whether she's had a few comments
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: which have made people think that way about her. It
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: also doesn't help that Sam's roommate, Lily, who has been
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: dragged into this drama, works at Cook Eye. And I
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: think that there's always been a bit of a stereotype
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: about the type of people that work in those stores.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: They're always very thin. Cook Eye is a shop that's
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: not very inclusive. Sammy also worked there herself. And I
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: think in the last 12 months, there have been a
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: lot of skits on TikTok about Cook Eye. I think
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: this conversation was very revealing. You almost get the feeling
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: that these sort of phobic conversations are a regular occurrence
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: potentially in this friendship group for there not to be
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: much thought about just chucking this up online. I just
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: want to also point out that this wasn't a live.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: So this wasn't a live that was chucked up on TikTok.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: Sam actually chose to post this video and it's just
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: super confusing because I wonder where this leaves their friendship
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: because if I was Bill, I'd be feeling pretty pissed off.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: that she just nearly uploaded this.
• 4:33
  Speaker 5: This kind of reminds me of the situation with Anna
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: Paul early last year when Michaela Testa came out and
• 4:39
  Speaker 5: accused her of calling a fan fat and sweaty and
• 4:43
  Speaker 5: And she also apparently made comments about influencers having close
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: set eyes. I think people really love when influencers get
• 4:50
  Speaker 5: called out for being the type of people that you
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: perhaps think that they may be behind the scenes.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: It's also very reminiscent of that YouTube video that Michael
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Finch put up. Remember he and Sky Wheatley were in
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: the car and Sky said a few offensive things about
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: OnlyFans and she was furious at Michael for leaving the
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: content in because she said, well, I just assumed he
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: would edit it out. Yeah, and that seemed to have
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: caused a feud between those two as well.
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: I need to know where Sofa Dofa actually fits into
• 5:14
  Speaker 5: this fat shaming comment because Sam referenced the fact that
• 5:18
  Speaker 5: she and Bill had just recorded a podcast about Sofa Dofa. Now,
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: Sofa Dofa and Sam haven't been seeing eye to eye
• 5:25
  Speaker 5: recently because Sofa Dofa is publicly friends again with Izzy Armitage,
• 5:29
  Speaker 5: who is, of course, Sam's ex-best friend, ex-podcast host. What
• 5:34
  Speaker 5: is going on with all of that?
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: The reason that Sofa Dofa has been dragged into this
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: is because of the timing. So Bill made the derogatory
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: comments about the potential flatmate and then he suddenly started
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: talking about Sofa Dofa and comments that Sam potentially made
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: about her on a podcast that they recorded. So people
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: were putting two and two together and thinking, well, are
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: they making these awful comments about Sofa Dofa or is
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: this all connected in some way?
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: I felt like that was a bit of a stretch
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: because when I watched the video, at no point did
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: I think that they were calling Sofa Dofa fat because,
• 6:06
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's just a ridiculous comment anyway because she
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: clearly isn't. She is a straight-sized woman who has an
• 6:12
  Speaker 5: incredible physique. So I'd never put two and two together.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Do you reckon this was some weird way to drum
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: up downloads for Bill's podcast that Sam was appearing on?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I just don't understand. Why anyone would put this out?
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: I think it was just them being careless. As you
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: would imagine, the backlash was very swift. There were a
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: lot of followers who were outraged by Bill's comments and
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: the fact that Sam thought it was acceptable to post
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: the video. Now, Sam and Bill decided to address the
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: outrage during a live on TikTok and surprisingly doubled down.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: They essentially said it was their audience's fault for not
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: being able to take a joke. Let's take a listen
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: to what they said.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: On the internet are jokes and we make silly things
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: all the time and sometimes it's not appropriate to put
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: it on the internet and.
• 6:58
  Speaker 7: I will admit bill asked me to delete it i
• 7:00
  Speaker 7: still thought it was funny i didn't think it'd get
• 7:02
  Speaker 7: taken out of context but again i forget that the
• 7:04
  Speaker 7: internet doesn't know how to take a joke sometimes and
• 7:07
  Speaker 7: it was purely an inside joke if.
• 7:09
  Speaker 8: James charles can say block me down fatty then i.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Can yeah it was just like a.
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: Jesus i love everybody i was fat once too I'd
• 7:20
  Speaker 5: like to know the context and for them to explain
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: how this comment was funny. I mean, that just makes
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: the whole situation 10 times worse. What an absolute echo
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: chamber this group of friends is currently living in. The
• 7:31
  Speaker 5: fact that they thought it was okay to then put
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: this information out after receiving the backlash as well.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that Sam and Bill
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: don't work with a PR team because this response, you'd
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: be mad to tell anyone to put this out. I
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: love that he has used James Charles's actions as an
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: excuse for his own comments. I mean, James Charles's comment
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: didn't fly then as well. He's been highly cancelled for
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: a number of things that he's done. Also, how do
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you feel is their audience being blamed? Oh, it's not
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: our fault for saying this offensive comment. It's your fault
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: for not having apparently a sense of humour. Well, followers
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: were outraged by this clip and they didn't believe that
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Sam or Bill were sorry at all. I would love
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: to ask, what is the punchline of this joke? Because
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: I am rather confused.
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: I saw that people were so confused by this live
• 8:17
  Speaker 5: that they thought potentially it might have been AI. I
• 8:20
  Speaker 5: think Influence Updates, you posted it and said, we haven't
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: confirmed if it's actually them because it's like, why the
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: hell would they ever put this out there willingly?
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: Well, a few days later, Bill addressed the controversy by
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: sharing a black and white tile to his Instagram story,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: as they all do. And in it, he said he
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: wanted to address the clip going around But instead of
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: actually apologizing for what he said, he again apologized for
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: how it came across. He wrote, I completely understand how
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: it can be taken the way it has. And regardless
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: of how it was meant, I want to apologize. For context,
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: I was rage baiting Sam in that video with sarcastic
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: comments about someone replacing her Melbourne room. He continued saying
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: it was meant to be banter between friends and he
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: was trying to wind Sam up, which is a common
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: dynamic in their friendship group. He also clarified that his
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: comment wasn't directed at any specific person and that it
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: doesn't reflect his views or how he feels about people's bodies.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: He also confirmed that his comments were not about Sofa
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Dofa and he was not body shaming her in any
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: way and that his sarcastic comments were completely separate from
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: his comments about Sofa Dofa and the podcast.
• 9:25
  Speaker 5: Now, since this sort of non-apology, Bill Barker has now
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: put another apology on his TikTok where He goes into
• 9:33
  Speaker 5: great detail. He sounds a little bit more sincere, but
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: it's like, hang on, when you're on your third attempt,
• 9:38
  Speaker 5: any authenticity is taken away. You're only putting this apology
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: out now to try and redeem yourself to the masses.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Well, over the weekend, Sam also apologized. So she wrote,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: a few days ago, I shared a video that included
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: a conversation which should have never happened and absolutely should
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: never have been posted online. The language used in that
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: moment was inappropriate. and unacceptable i want to make it
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: clear that the comments made were not directed at any
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: specific person or influencer however i understand that regardless of
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: intent what was said was offensive and hurtful I take
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: full responsibility for posting the video without properly reviewing it beforehand.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: That was a mistake and it does not excuse what
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: was said. I should have exercised better judgment. I am
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: genuinely sorry to anyone who was hurt by my actions.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I take accountability for this and will ensure I learn
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: from it and do better going forward. So they really
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: have changed their tunes since this live. It feels like
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Sam's manager wrote that because it was quite well put together.
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: Well, to be fair, it was a much better apology
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: than the second go by Bill Barker. But again, it
• 10:40
  Speaker 5: doesn't seem genuine when it's the second apology that they've
• 10:43
  Speaker 5: had to put out there. Sam also ended up sharing
• 10:47
  Speaker 5: more about the incident on her Snapchat story. So she
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: revealed she hadn't left the house that day. She was
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: actually meant to attend the Formula One, but she said
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: she didn't feel like she deserved to go to something
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: so amazing after upsetting so many people on the internet.
• 11:00
  Speaker 5: It's interesting because Sofa Dofa was there very loud and
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: proud at the event with Jackie Alexander. They actually made
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: a few videos taking potshots at Bill and Sam.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Well, Sam also said that she was so annoyed by
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: her behaviour and for betraying and exposing her best friend
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: and called her actions immature and stupid. She then said
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: this about Sofa Dofa.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: The only thing I really want to get across is
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: that I was never talking about Sof's body or he
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: was never implying anything about Sof. It was completely different.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: And I just need to, like, think more and I'm
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: not excusing my actions.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Sam also went on to say that she's not trying
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: to excuse her actions, but a big part of her
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: ADHD is not thinking about and feeling like she's in
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: a rush to post content. And she said that she's
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: not going to be on social media for a few
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: days because she needs to learn. And she may not
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: even return to social media because she's clearly not a
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: good person. She also said that as someone who has
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: suffered from an eating disorder before, that she needs to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: grow up and not contribute to that sentiment online. I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: understand that her first time around was not an apology
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: at all, but it seems like she has actually thought
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: about the way that this content has come across in
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: her actions. It appears that she's really taken on board
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: some of the comments that have been left to her
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: because you've got to remember what they, these guys have
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: been copying it a lot from their followers.
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: What I don't get is why share that on Snapchat?
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: Why not put that on your main feed on TikTok?
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, I'm guessing it's because you can't comment on
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: a Snapchat story, but I think it would have been
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: beneficial for her to share that on her TikTok.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Also for Dover hit back in a recent YouTube vlog.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Let's have a listen.
• 12:41
  Speaker 5: To what she said.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Obviously, we're not psychopaths.
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: I quite enjoyed this. I like it when influencers kind
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: of have a bit of a jab, but it's not
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: so ultra direct.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Bill Barker ended up commenting underneath this video
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and he wrote, using a word like that is crazy work,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: as if Soph has never made a mistake before. Like, sorry,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: but I would never make fun of Steve Irwin's passing
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: and to not even keep up the apology. Sorry, but
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: we've all made mistakes and are learning. Now, for those
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: who don't remember that incident, Soph Adofa dressed up as
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the stingray that killed Steve Irwin for Halloween one year.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: And she obviously copped it for that.
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: I think it's important to point out that Sofa Dofa
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: was 19 at the time and apologised over the incident.
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is the issue with being online at
• 13:48
  Speaker 5: such a young age. These things follow you around. But
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: I mean, it doesn't sound like Bill Barker is genuinely
• 13:53
  Speaker 5: sorry if he's throwing up things that happened like six
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: years ago.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Steve Irwin died in 2006. So I think it
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: was around the time that Sofa Dofa was born, which
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: is pretty wild. It wasn't the best costume to dress
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: up in. I can see why everyone was so offended.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: But As you pointed out, Kate, I think this shows
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: just how young these influencers are and they are going
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: to continue to make mistakes. They just actually have to
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: own up to their shit.
• 14:15
  Speaker 5: We'll get a PR manager on board to help them
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: make an apology that actually sounds genuine. Now, in terms
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: of Sam Guggenheimer's social media hiatus, it only lasted a
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: couple of days. She returned to social media on Wednesday
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: with a video documenting her move to Sydney and She
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: didn't actually have any audio in the video. Instead, she
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: wrote a long caption about how the time offline had
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: made her reflect on the fact that she'd lost her
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: purpose and that she was trying to rebuild and regroup.
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: People weren't buying it though. There was a lot of
• 14:46
  Speaker 5: negative commentary on her video. I think it's going to
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: take a while for her and she just can't come
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: back after a couple of days. Oh, fucking hell, this
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: was pretentious.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Shameless Media has come under fire for a segment that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: aired on their fashion podcast, Stylish. The hosts have been
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: labeled aggressive and mean girls after they disagreed with content
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: creator Tamsin Wong's think piece on personal style and taste. Kate,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: the drama was all over my For You page. Can
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: you bring us up to speed with who the main
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: players are?
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: Let's start with Stylish. So it is an Australian fashion
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: podcast produced by Shameless Media. Now, many listeners will be
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: familiar with Shameless Media as it is the media company
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: behind one of Australia's biggest podcasts, Shameless. So Shameless is
• 15:31
  Speaker 5: a pop culture podcast hosted by Michelle Andrews and Zara McDonald.
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: Since it launched in 2018, it has racked up over
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: 100 million downloads. Now, off the back of Shameless's massive success,
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: the network has expanded to include new shows like Everybody
• 15:47
  Speaker 5: Has a Secret, Inherited, and of course, Stylish.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Now, the difference between these new shows on the Shameless
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Media Network is they aren't hosted by Michelle and Zara.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: So Stylish has three hosts, Madison Sullivan Thorpe, Joanna Fleming,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: and Annika Joshi Smith. So Madison is the former senior
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: brand marketing manager at Mecca. So she now runs her
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: own marketing consultancy company. She also creates content under the
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: handle Sales Fairy, where she analyzes fashion sales tactics, marketing campaigns,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and also brand strategy. So then there's Joanna, who is
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the only host who has previous podcasting experience. So she
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: used to be the host of the Adore Beauty podcast. Interestingly,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: her experience isn't in fashion, but actually in beauty. So
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: she is a dermal therapist and skincare expert. As for Annika,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: she is the founder of a consultancy company that helps
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: fashion brands expand into global markets. So she's positioned as
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the host who has insider knowledge in the fashion industry. Now,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: on the other side of this debate is Tamsyn Wong.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: So Tamsyn is a London-based fashion content creator. She originally
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: worked in finance before becoming a full-time content creator. However,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: she is not your typical fashion influencer. She's not the
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: type of creator who shares clothing hauls or Get Ready
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: With Me style videos. Instead, she's known for posting... longer
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: think piece style videos about taste, wealth, and fashion culture.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: She's incredibly well-respected and influential in the fashion space, so
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: much so that she has attracted over 650,000 followers on TikTok.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: She also has a secondary account, which she refers to
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: as a burner account, with around 30,000 followers, which is
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a crucial element to this story. She also has the
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: most amazing accent. I love it. I could listen to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: her all day.
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: Now, in terms of the drama, it all started when
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: Tamsin shared a think piece to her burner TikTok account
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: about how style and taste are developed. So she spoke
• 17:45
  Speaker 5: in her usual analytical manner and essentially made the point
• 17:48
  Speaker 5: that good taste develops over time through curiosity, experience and
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: individual exploration rather than simply copying online trends. Let's take
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: a listen to some more of what she said.
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: You need to stop listening to strangers on the internet
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: telling you what is chic and what is good and
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: what is stylish because they can put together a nice
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: looking mood board or a 60 second video where they've
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: taken a load of images from Pinterest and been like,
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: this is it guys.
• 18:10
  Speaker 8: Developing good taste.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: Requires curiosity, it requires friction, it requires longevity and practice.
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: Whether you love me or hate me, both my supporters
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: and my haters alike will never say that I have
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: bad taste. And when I did a video about taste
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: on my main account, I saw a comment from somebody
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: who was Gen Z, who had expressed the fact that
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: because their generation in particular have been told what to wear,
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: what the trends are, how to dress, and it's all
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: been dictated to, they haven't had any chance to actually
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: curate their own sense of self.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, she makes a good point, to be fair.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: I'm so sick of seeing everyone wearing the same thing
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: on TikTok. I mean, we've all seen that viral dish shirt,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the blue one that's oversized that literally everyone wore last year.
• 18:48
  Speaker 8: The one that you own.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, I own it. Again, I'm not saying that I
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: don't copy trends, but I'm saying she has a very
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: good point. No one wants to be different or unique
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: these days.
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: Well, this specific clip ended up featuring in a segment
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: on the Stylish podcast where the host discussed sourcing styling
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: inspiration outside of algorithms. Now, despite seemingly sharing some of
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: Tamsin's viewpoints, bizarrely, the Stylish host launched a four-minute attack
• 19:14
  Speaker 5: directed at Tamsin, So it appeared that they'd taken personal
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: offence to Tamsin's thoughts as straight away, Annika said she
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: felt attacked because she's in her Pinterest era. Let's take
• 19:27
  Speaker 5: a listen to a snippet of what else was said.
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: How do you feel about it, Jo?
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: Oh, fucking hell, this was pretentious.
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: That video I watched and I was just like, this
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: is the biggest first world problem I've ever heard in
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: my life.
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: She was, in this video, she's like.
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: To have taste, you have to go and see the
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: art and see the brushstrokes in person. Most of us
• 19:48
  Speaker 6: are just trying to get to work on time.
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: Okay? I love it so much when you get pissed.
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: Like when Jo gets pissed off, guys, it's like Savage
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: Sally comes out and I love it.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: I literally give you the step to get on the
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: high horse. I'm like, get on there. I'll help. Use
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: me as the stepladder. I'll get on all fours so
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: you can step on me to get up there.
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: It was just.
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: One of those things that I watched and I was
• 20:08
  Speaker 6: just like, oh, go touch some grass.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Honestly, if you want to use Pinterest to get some style.
• 20:13
  Speaker 5: Go take your shoes off, sweetie, and go stand in nature. Yeah,
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: that's my take.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Anyway, go on.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: Look, I'm inclined to agree. And you know what, Jo?
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: No one will ever accuse you of not doubling down
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: and saying what you feel with your chest.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a bit taken back by that. It
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: didn't stop there. Following this outburst, Madison shared her thoughts
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: on the topic. Let's have a listen.
• 20:33
  Speaker 6: What I didn't like about this take was You're not
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: stylish or you don't have taste if you don't source
• 20:39
  Speaker 6: your taste outside of Of the internet.
• 20:42
  Speaker 5: And it has to have friction.
• 20:43
  Speaker 6: Like we're allowed to get our inspiration from anywhere. At
• 20:46
  Speaker 6: the moment, I'm getting inspiration from walking through other people's houses,
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: hoping that I can potentially buy it.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Well, do you know what I was going to say?
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I've got more than enough friction. I'm a 30, nearly
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: one year old woman who is single with a big
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: fat golden retriever, running my own business, working like a dog.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: There is more than enough fucking friction in my life.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: So you know what? You back the fuck off. And
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: if I want to find a jacket on a served
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: ad on TikTok, You leave me the fuck alone. And
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: if someone tells me to buy the blush on Instagram,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: guess what? If it looks good and she's got the
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: same complexion, I'm going to fucking buy it.
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: I think that would have riled us up.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I know. And you know what? I've got fucking taste.
• 21:23
  Speaker 6: I'm literally like deceased right now because I'm like, have
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: we ever been more personal?
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Clearly, these women were having a bad day. Did we
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: listen to the same original video of Tamsin? She didn't
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: even say anything offensive. What triggered this response? Sometimes on
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: this podcast, even when I haven't been riled up about something,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: sometimes you guys say to me, oh, your tone sounds off.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: I wonder if this was a case where maybe they
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: were trying to be funny, but their tone was just off.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: It was just weird. It gives this insight maybe into
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: what is said when the microphones are turned off. That's
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: what it sounded like. We'd somehow been a fly on
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: the wall of an off mic conversation.
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: Well, there was a comment made that they aim to
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: make it feel like a conversation between girlfriends at a
• 22:06
  Speaker 5: wine bar that you're getting an insight into. But I mean,
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: I was just taken aback by the swearing, the aggressive nature,
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: the back the fuck off.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Like it was like they.
• 22:16
  Speaker 5: Had taken it so personal. I also can't get over
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: the fact that as the discussion went on, The stylish
• 22:22
  Speaker 5: hosts inadvertently agreed with Tamsin's post. They admitted that they
• 22:26
  Speaker 5: were bored of their social media feeds and have been
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: looking for other places for inspiration, like people watching in Paris.
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: This was precisely Tamsin's whole point.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: But what I didn't understand was in their first rant
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: about her, they were acting as if she was so
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: pretentious to even be, you know, focusing so much on
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: fashion when they have a fashion podcast. Yeah, when the
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: whole life is fashion.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Isn't this what your whole podcast is about? I mean,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: it'd be different if maybe like, for instance, you were
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: on a pop culture podcast or something or a podcast
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: about crime or something. I was like, oh my God,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: how ridiculous is this woman who's so invested in fashion?
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: Well, that's the interesting thing because since this all has
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: blown up, a lot of stylish listeners have come out
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: and said, look, I actually really enjoyed the podcast to
• 23:09
  Speaker 5: begin with. It's been running for nearly two years now. However,
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: they said that it's not really a fashion podcast anymore.
• 23:16
  Speaker 5: It's just three women dissecting different stories that are sort
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: of loosely linked to fashion. It was interesting though, because
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: for the research for this topic, I listened to the
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: full episode and it's not a podcast that really interests me.
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: I'm not really that into fashion, but the aggressive tone
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: actually was throughout the whole episode because there was a
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: segment they did earlier in the show where they were
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: talking about this content creator who's come out and said
• 23:40
  Speaker 5: that as soon as they find out another content creator
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: is either in their bridal era or has a baby,
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: they unfollow that person. And they went to town on
• 23:49
  Speaker 5: them as well. I also want to point out in
• 23:51
  Speaker 5: terms of you were saying before, like, oh, did they
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: all have a bad week? Annika is 39 weeks pregnant
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: and this was the last podcast that she recorded before
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: going on maternity leave. So I feel like If anyone's
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: getting a free pass, it should be her because I
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: had pregnancy rage. I mean, she was probably the least
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: offensive one on there though.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: That's the thing, like I don't want to be hypocritical
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: because I know sometimes we jump on and have a
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: bit of a rant like that. I think it's just
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: surprising because generally under the shameless banner, everything is very
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: thought out. There's not too much controversy. But also, what
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised about is anytime we have a rant... it
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: might've been something personal that's happened to us, or we've
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: had a run in with an influencer and we've gone
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: on a subs episode and had a bit of a
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: rant about it. But this seemed really like, this wasn't premeditated.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: It was very triggering for them maybe. Maybe because they
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: are so into fashion, they were very triggered by her comments.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Now it was at this point that Tamsin entered the chat.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: So rather than calling out the podcast on her main channel,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: she kept the conversation on her burner account. So She
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: admitted that she had never heard of the Stylish or
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Shameless podcast before and only became aware of the segment
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: after her followers sent her the clips Stylish had posted
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: on TikTok. Now, she said she initially planned to laugh
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: off the commentary because she thought it was a small
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: indie podcast. Is that a bit of a burn there? However,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: since learning how big the podcast was and listening to
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: this segment, she felt compelled to address it. Now, she
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: described the segment as weird as hell and unnecessarily aggressive
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and She then said this.
• 25:24
  Speaker 8: I do believe if you're going to have a whole
• 25:29
  Speaker 8: podcast and business structured around fashion, lifestyle and taste, and
• 25:33
  Speaker 8: you're going to call out somebody aggressively for their opinion
• 25:37
  Speaker 8: on fashion, lifestyle and taste, you should be able to
• 25:40
  Speaker 8: then engage with not only your audience, but the perspective
• 25:43
  Speaker 8: of somebody giving you a new lens on fashion, lifestyle
• 25:46
  Speaker 8: or taste.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: I did not choose to be on that podcast.
• 25:49
  Speaker 8: You chose to talk about me. And unfortunately for them,
• 25:51
  Speaker 8: I happen to have a far bigger audience than maybe
• 25:53
  Speaker 8: they anticipated, which is why they've just deleted videos or
• 25:56
  Speaker 8: they're deleting comments. We're not just two random women fighting
• 25:59
  Speaker 8: on the internet with stitched videos. This is the bread
• 26:03
  Speaker 8: and butter of what the three of you girls do.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: Now, I want to point out this comment is in
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: reference to the fact that Tamsin posted her original video
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: on her burner TikTok. It's pretty interesting. Despite her addressing
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: the podcast drama again in this burner account, the video
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: has been viewed over 560,000 times at the time of recording.
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: She ended up finishing this video by imploring the podcast
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: host to tag her in the video next time rather
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: than trying to hide it from her, which I thought
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: was an interesting take because it's not something we do
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: at Outspoken. We often talk about influencers. post the videos
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: on social media and then don't tag them. I found
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: that feedback interesting.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: Well, from our perspective, it's because you don't really want
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: to wave a bit of a red flag to a bull,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: do you? You don't want to be like, hey, look
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: over here, we're talking about you. I think that the
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: stylish host thought, oh, this is pretty game on. Let's
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: have a bit of a crack about this. We'll have
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: a bit of a laugh at this pretentious content that
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: she's put out there because she's only got 30,000 followers.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: She's never going to hear this and her followers aren't
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: going to have a go back at us. I don't
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: think that they ever would have done it if they
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: realised that she had over half a million followers. I
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: think the reason why this story has had such a
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: huge response is because this is very unlike shameless media.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: They are known for inviting a lot of influencers on
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: their show. Zara and Michelle themselves are friends with a
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: lot of key influencers in Melbourne. They actually changed up
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the whole format of their show, Shameless. Initially, I really
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: loved their show because they spoke or they really critiqued
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: influencer culture, which obviously I was interested in. then when
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: they befriended a lot of the influences that they had
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: on their show. And I think also once they copped
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: some criticism themselves. Well, they became more influential themselves. So
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: they understood what it was like to be critiqued. So
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: they switched up. I mean, I think part of their
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: strategy to switch up was also to reach a larger
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: audience because they started talking about US pop culture as
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: well as UK pop culture topics. And it's been very
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: successful for them. But I think that's why it's so
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: weird because you think, oh, they probably would invite someone
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: with half a million followers on their show to be
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: interviewed on Stylish as opposed to critiquing what she said.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: You could never imagine Zara and Michelle having this conversation.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I think that's what it comes down to.
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think for a number of years now, Zara
• 28:09
  Speaker 5: and Michelle in particular have shied away from controversial conversations,
• 28:13
  Speaker 5: which is why this has, you know, completely blown up.
• 28:16
  Speaker 5: It's something that we didn't expect from shameless media. Now,
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: following Tamsin's responses, the upset that was bubbling online turned
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: into a complete uproar. So it wasn't just Tamsin's followers
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: who were unhappy about the Stylish host's commentary. Listeners of
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: the Stylish podcast joined the comment section to share their disappointment.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: And it got to the point where people started coming
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: out of the woodwork saying that they've never liked Stylish.
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: They have issues with shameless media. Now, the backlash was
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: so great that Stylish ended up dropping an episode on
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: Sunday night addressing the drama. Now, the episode was entitled
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: Unpacking Your Feedback. And interestingly, Shameless's co-founders, Michelle and Zara,
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: were the first to speak on the episode. And I
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: felt like this was their way of saying, we're taking
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: this seriously. They even referenced that they were recording it
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: on the weekend. They'd clearly been in crisis talks the
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: whole weekend over this issue.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I do appreciate them as the founders of Shameless Media
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: actually taking the time to appear on the podcast and
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: take things seriously.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a bit odd. It was almost
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: like they had to bring in mum and dad to
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: apologise for them or it's almost like they weren't trusted
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: to issue the apology properly. Yeah, but at the end
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: of the day, this is Zara and Michelle's media company,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: which is reflecting badly because of their actions. But it's
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: a separate podcast. Yeah, but the reason Zara and Michelle
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: have to address this. is because it is their business
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day and they sign off
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: on these podcasts going out. We've heard them speaking numerous
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: times about how they listen back to everything. numerous times
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: before it's aired. So obviously they gave this a tick
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: of approval initially. I get all that, but can you
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: imagine Mamma Mia? They've got so many different podcasts on
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: their network. Can you imagine if Mia Friedman came on
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: every one of them if some issue like this happened?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: It was like, oh, guys, just wanted to say sorry.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: It just seemed odd to me. It seemed like it
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: almost made it more of a big deal and it
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: almost seemed like they were trying to use the fact
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: that Michelle and Zara are so well liked to sort
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: of gloss over it.
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: Is not so much that they were on the podcast.
• 30:17
  Speaker 5: I actually think that was a good thing. It's the
• 30:20
  Speaker 5: way the podcast was recorded because they very clunkily made
• 30:24
  Speaker 5: this joke about how they were sitting close to each
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: other because they had to share a microphone. It was
• 30:28
  Speaker 5: like they were trying to soften the whole situation. And
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: it took so long for them to actually get into
• 30:33
  Speaker 5: the apology. It should have been acknowledged straight away. It also,
• 30:36
  Speaker 5: as you said, Amy, felt like the stylish host had
• 30:39
  Speaker 5: sort of been dragged into the principal's office and were
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: being reprimanded. Like it was just rather awkward. I did
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: like how Michelle and Zara acknowledged the fact that they
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: had a responsibility to unpack the backlash and negative commentary
• 30:52
  Speaker 5: directed at the segment. So they explained that they had
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: decided to release the discussion as a podcast episode rather
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: than a social media post because it would have been
• 30:59
  Speaker 5: impossible to capture what they wanted to say in a
• 31:02
  Speaker 5: sound bitey social media post. Now there's been a lot
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: said about this decision. Some people feel like it should
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: have been addressed on social media as well, seeing that
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: was the platform where this discussion blew up. Others have
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: accused Shameless for trying to profit off the drama by
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: getting people to listen to the apology on the podcast.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: To be fair, I do need to point out that
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: the episode didn't feature ads. It did rank rather highly
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: on the podcast charts though.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: I think that it was the right decision though, because
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: a podcast is a format where you can actually go
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: into detail about your reasonings behind things and actually apologize properly.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of the time these apology tiles
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: get taken out of context and you could be accused
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: of trying to profit off that as well because you're
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: going your Instagram account by it being directly sent on.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And let's be real, they probably didn't want to post
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: it on social media because the comments would have been terrible.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: I actually think they should have posted something on social
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: media acknowledging it as well.
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: Turn the comments off if that is the issue. Now,
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: after Zara and Michelle said their piece, all three hosts
• 32:02
  Speaker 5: discussed their part in the drama. So the first to
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: speak was Madison, who admitted the tone was off and
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: that she came across as more aggressive than she would
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: have liked. But she still said she stood by her comment.
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: I felt like it was almost as if she was
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: centering herself as the victim a little bit. She didn't
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: seem very apologetic. She was one of the only hosts
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: who didn't actually apologize to Tamsin.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, to Jo and Annika's credit, they both said
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: that they were sorry during the 16-minute episode. And Joanna
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: labelled her comments as flippant and unnecessarily aggressive. She also
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: admitted that she didn't do her due diligence when looking
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: at the broader context of Tamsin's content. At one point, though,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: it felt like she was trying to shift the blame
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: to the producers and shirk responsibility. Let's take a listen
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: to what she said.
• 32:48
  Speaker 6: And in our whip, I remember kind of being like, oh,
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: I don't really have anything to add to this conversation,
• 32:53
  Speaker 6: to be honest, because it just kind of feels like
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: a bit above me.
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: I don't feel like I'm a tastemaker.
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: I don't feel like I'm super....
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: Tasteful, I guess.
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: That's not how I would position myself. So this kind
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: of felt like a bit beyond me. And I think
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: I projected a bit of that onto Tamsin. And I
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: absolutely think that my language and the way I came
• 33:12
  Speaker 6: into it a bit aggressively towards Tamsin was completely uncalled for.
• 33:16
  Speaker 5: And I apologized to her for that.
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: I think that was just unwarranted.
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: As for Annika, she made a bizarre comment about not
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: understanding her own influence. Let's take a listen.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: And I think as well as Whitman, like, I don't
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: think we've even realized just yet how powerful our influence
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: is and how powerful our platform is on the Stylish podcast.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about that comment. I mean,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Stylish is on one of Australia's largest podcast networks. They
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: obviously receive a hell of a lot of downloads. I
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: think that they were probably shocked by the reaction that
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: they received because I feel like maybe they felt a
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: bit protected being one of Shameless's podcasts because Zara and
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Michelle are so well-liked. Maybe they thought they could get
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: away with just saying whatever.
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. Now, in terms of this apology, once
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: the hosts had their say, Zara and Michelle then addressed
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: their role in the situation. So like Madison, they didn't
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: apologize directly to Tamsin. Instead, Michelle said that the tone
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: probably missed the mark, but then went on to defend
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: the messaging in the segment saying it was probably something
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: a lot of people related to. Now, this was just
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: one example of passive language that was used throughout this apology.
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: They really tried to soften what happened by saying, probably,
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: and a bit, which really took away any accountability, I thought.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: What I found really interesting was the discussion around the
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: shameless media team. So Michelle essentially placed blame on the
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: production team, saying it was the producer's job to pick
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: up that the tone was off, as it would have
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: been tricky for the host to do so.
• 34:46
  Speaker 5: I found that really strange, considering that one of the hosts, Annika,
• 34:50
  Speaker 5: literally commented during the segment saying that she'd never seen
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: her co-host more pissed off. Like it was clear that
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: the conversation had escalated to a point where they were
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: all revved up. I just don't know how it made
• 35:04
  Speaker 5: the air. I mean, they have a team of 20
• 35:06
  Speaker 5: at Shameless. They have spoken about how they have this
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: big production team. How did it get past so many
• 35:12
  Speaker 5: ears to the fact that it went live? It just
• 35:15
  Speaker 5: doesn't make any sense to me. I'd be annoyed if
• 35:17
  Speaker 5: I was one of the producers. I'd be like, wait
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: a second.
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: They said this, the hosts all said this with microphones
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: in front of their faces. When you work in media,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: you need to understand that anytime a microphone is live,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: your comments could get aired.
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: It was interesting because Michelle and Zara also made this
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: big point about the fact that the stylish hosts are
• 35:34
  Speaker 5: actually contractors and not employees of the company. It was
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: kind of like, in a way they were trying to
• 35:39
  Speaker 5: let them off the hook because there's been a big
• 35:42
  Speaker 5: discussion about the fact that Stylish deleted the offending TikTok clip.
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: And that's sort of what sparked a lot of the
• 35:49
  Speaker 5: drama because people were like, well, they're trying to moderate
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: the comments. They're trying to hide it and sweep it
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: under the rug. Now, Michelle touched on this. She said
• 35:56
  Speaker 5: that the cut down of the segment they chose didn't
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: reflect the tone and the segment. She then went on
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: to complain that condensing a nuanced conversation into a 90
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: second clip is difficult. Now, I don't disagree with that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: That is something that we really struggle with our outspoken
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: as well. However, I think in this case, the clip
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: really correctly reflected the tone. The whole segment was aggressive.
• 36:17
  Speaker 5: It's not like it was taken out of context. And
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: it's your production team that have clipped it up.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: I agree.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: I also feel like Michelle's comment about the stylish host
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: being contractors, it was almost like she was trying to
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: distance the host from the shameless brand. Like, no, guys,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: they're just contractors. They're not employees of us.
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: Yeah, their opinions don't reflect the shameless media brand.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Michelle and Zara also touched on why the clip was deleted.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: So they said it was the production team's decision to
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: take it down, not the hosts. And as contractors, the
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: hosts don't have anything to do with the social media
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: side of things. Again, pointing out that they're contractors.
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: They did say that the reason they made that decision,
• 36:56
  Speaker 5: which was a decision they said that they regretted, they
• 36:58
  Speaker 5: said in hindsight, they shouldn't have deleted the clip. But
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: apparently they said it was to protect Annika, who, as
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: I mentioned earlier, is 39 weeks pregnant.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Well, Tamsin responded to the apology episode on TikTok, and
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: she revealed she received a message from Michelle and Zara
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: prior to the episode going out. The DM read, Hi, lovely.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: It's Mission Zara here. We are the co-founders of Shameless
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: Media and therefore Stylish. We've watched your video and want
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: you to know that we've been chatting to the team
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: internally all weekend. The stylish host will be working on
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: a thoughtful response to your feedback today. Thank you for
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: laying it out. We also want to be self-aware that
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: the optics of three women on a podcast unpacking one
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: woman's video can feel and look heavy handed. And we
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: will take that on board into all of our content
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: decisions going forward. Mish and Zara, kiss, kiss, kiss.
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: I found this comment about the optics looking bad. It's
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: a bit of a like Freudian slip. It's not like
• 37:52
  Speaker 5: we're actually sorry for what happened and how it made
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: you feel. We're sorry that the optics of it have
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: looked bad on us. Like it's reflected badly on our
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: media team. And I also didn't think it was appropriate
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: to address Tamsin as lovely with all the kisses and stuff.
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, this is a professional situation. You are the
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: co-founders of a media company and you have really offended
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: this creator.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: I want to hit back though, Kate. In fashion, that
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: is how people talk though. They do lots of kisses.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: They say, hey, lovely. Hey, babe. As someone who has
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: worked in fashion PR before slightly, That is how people talk.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: But it's also strategic because it's really humanising them. Yeah,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: they're trying to be friendly. We're just two women who
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: also own this media company. You're not going to be
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: kind regards, Zara and Michelle. I think it was good
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: of them to do it.
• 38:37
  Speaker 5: I personally think it came across as a little bit inauthentic. Really? Now,
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: keen to not reopen a can of worms, Tamsin then
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: said this.
• 38:46
  Speaker 8: So in short, I'm grateful they took the time to respond.
• 38:49
  Speaker 8: I'm not going to dig into the response. It's my
• 38:51
  Speaker 8: firm belief that it's completely up to their audience and
• 38:54
  Speaker 8: their listeners and anybody who was very upset or disappointed
• 38:59
  Speaker 8: by the whole segment.
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: It's completely up.
• 39:02
  Speaker 8: To you to decide how you feel about their response
• 39:04
  Speaker 8: and whether you want to keep supporting them and listening
• 39:06
  Speaker 8: to them.
• 39:07
  Speaker 5: That's not for me to tell you. Now, interestingly, Tamsin
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: went on to say she doesn't condone being nasty to
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: the podcast hopes because It's not constructive to anybody and
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: it doesn't help further the discussion or help people take accountability.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: I thought that was a little bit of a pot shot.
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: All in all though, I thought her response was a
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: real masterclass in grace and integrity. I think a big
• 39:29
  Speaker 5: positive to come from this whole ordeal is the fact
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: that it's directed a lot more eyeballs to her content.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the overall feedback on Tamsin's video was that people
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: were not happy with Shameless Media's apology. Social media commentator
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Kate Forster wrote, it was a non-apology. It was deflection.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: And that comment got over 3.4 thousand likes. Another person wrote,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: I find it greedy that they address their apology only
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: in their podcast. I don't think I should be giving
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: them downloads and streams to hear them be decent about this. Anyway,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: I guess I'll never know what they said. Tamsin responded, writing,
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: I will say it is rather bizarre to have to
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: go and find a response by going to their podcast,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: which obviously drives views slash listens.
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: What really stands out to me after listening to their
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: apology is it seems like the team at Shameless Media
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: still don't quite understand what Tamsin said in her video.
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: There is a complete misunderstanding going on because they kept saying, oh,
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: we stand by our point. But then when they went
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: on to explain what their point was, it was Tamsin's
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: point all along. It just didn't make sense to me.
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, it was clear that this topic wasn't well-researched.
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: It felt tacked on at the end of the segment.
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: And I think a big learning they're going to take
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: away is do better research. I mean, they have so
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: many staff working for them. That's what I don't understand.
• 40:44
  Speaker 5: If this was just an independent podcast, I mean, I'm
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: the first to put our hand up. We are under
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: the pump here. We are a staff of three and
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: we produce four podcasts a week. There are times when
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: we definitely get it wrong. I'm sure in the future
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: that we will have to put out an apology at
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: some stage as well. But I was pretty shocked by
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: this apology that Shameless Media released. particularly because Michelle and
• 41:07
  Speaker 5: Zara position themselves on their podcast as PR experts. They
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: often critique apologies. And I was just surprised that this
• 41:16
  Speaker 5: is what they decided to put out there.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: That being said, I do feel for the three hosts
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: involved to a certain extent because there has been a
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: massive pile on that we've seen. And again, they all
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: are pretty new to podcasting apart from Jo, who's obviously
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: done a bit here and there. I think that they
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: trusted the higher powers at Shameless Media with the production
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: team to not give the green light for something that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: would be deemed unacceptable.
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: One thing that took me by surprise was how quickly
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: people started coming out of the woodwork to slam Shameless
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: Media as a whole. There was this rhetoric online that
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: the office has a mean girl energy. And I think
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: that is a result of listeners thinking almost feeling like
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: they've been hoodwinked because, I mean, we touched on it earlier.
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: Many years ago, Shameless made this strategic move to steer
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: clear of controversial conversations. And I personally was disappointed when
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: this shift happened because I really enjoyed hearing their hot
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: takes on different topics. And over the years, I think
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: it's fair to say that the Shameless brand has turned
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: into one that's very likable. All of the women that
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: work there seem very relatable. I think it's a goal
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: to work at Shameless Media. And I think they very
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: much want to be liked, which is very normal. So
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: much so that it often feels like when they share opinions,
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: they share an opinion that they think their listeners want
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: to hear.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Well, they've actually said that themselves because they received a
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: lot of criticism when they, I suppose, said what they
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: really think and put it out there. Then they started
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: to try and play it safe and say things that
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: they think that the majority of their audience would agree with.
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: And my guess is during this planning meeting for the
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: stylish episode that the production team were trying to make
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: the host relatable because there's been a bit of backlash saying, oh,
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: all they do is promote expensive fashion that no one
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: else can afford. So I think that they thought, oh,
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: we'll be relatable and say, oh, this is a bit
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: of a wank fest. Listen to this. We all don't
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: have time to do all of this. We just are
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: happy to check out our algorithm and buy from there. Now,
• 43:12
  Speaker 5: unfortunately for Shameless Media, this has completely backfired and instead
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: it came across as mean girly.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I actually hate the term mean girl because we've had
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: this thrown at our podcast a number of times. I'm
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: sure if there were three men on a podcast, maybe
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: talking about footy or whatever it may be, and they
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: had a bit of a rogue take, they wouldn't be
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: called mean boys. So I personally don't like that term myself.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: And I'm actually surprised to hear that people have an
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: opinion of the Shameless podcast offers being mean girl energy.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: If anything, I think it's the place where a lot
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: of women, a lot of young women want to work
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: and it has sort of good vibes about it.
• 43:49
  Speaker 5: Well, I think why that rhetoric came out is because
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: mean girls does not match up with the nice girl
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: persona that shameless media have put out there. That's what
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: they've been pushing for years. So I think when this
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: stylish episode dropped, the audience suddenly felt betrayed. And when
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: you feel betrayed, you lash out and say, oh, this
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: is mean girl. You guys are all mean, which I
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: don't think is a fair reflection on shameless media at all.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Do we reckon there's also a bit of tall poppy
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: syndrome going on? I know we say this a lot
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: of the time, but recently, I mean, it would have
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: been last year, late last year, Shameless put out how
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: much money that they were earning. And I think that
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: any time in particular that women do this and we
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: see how much they're succeeding and how much money is
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: being turned by a business, suddenly people get their backs
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: up and think, oh, hold on a second. I thought
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: these people were my friends, but they're making a fuck
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: ton of money off this. I'm going to be extra
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: critical of the next. It's almost like people were, hanging
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: out for them to do something that they could have
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: a go at them about.
• 44:44
  Speaker 5: I definitely think there is internalized misogyny at play to
• 44:47
  Speaker 5: a part, particularly because we hold female podcasters up to
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: such a high standard. And when they put a toe
• 44:55
  Speaker 5: out of place, we go, oh, well, they're privileged. They're
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: nasty because their entire branding is often the opposite of that.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I would love to know where our listeners stand on
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: this topic. We will put up a thread in our
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Facebook community, which is Outspoken, the podcast community. On that note,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: that is all we have time for today. Thank you
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: so much for joining us for this marathon of a podcast.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like this is the longest one we've done
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: for a while.
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: I feel like we owed it to our listeners because
• 45:17
  Speaker 5: Monday was a public holiday, which meant we didn't record
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: a fresh episode for Tuesday. So we hope you have
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: enjoyed it. If you do want to hear more content
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: from us, we drop a bonus episode every Thursday on
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: Outspoken Plus. If you want to subscribe to that, all
• 45:31
  Speaker 5: the details are in the show notes. This podcast was
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: recorded on the traditional land of the Kaurna people of
• 45:36
  Speaker 5: the Adelaide Plains. We pay respect to elders past and present.